U of S | Mailing List Archive | alt-photo-process-l | Re: brush vs tray size for gum

Re: brush vs tray size for gum

As I've said before on this list many a time, once the paper
is yellow no amount of soaking on my part has ever gotten
the yellow to leave, even 24 hours. But Michael, try it and
see which direction you go, don't just take my word on it.
Heck, I'd love it if the yellowing disappeared.

----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Katharine Thayer <kthayer@pacifier.com>
To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
Subject: Re: brush vs tray size for gum
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 10:44:50 -0700

>Matthew, I'm curious whether you actually tried printing
>gum on the   yellowed paper.   The reason I ask is that, as
>I mentioned the other   day,  while Arches bright white
>does turn ivory-colored for me after   application of
>glyoxal (although FAEW didn't) I've found that if I   print
>gum on the ivoried paper, it reverts to snow white in the  
>development water, and that''s why I don't bother with a
>separate   rinse at the time of sizing.
>On Sep 26, 2006, at 1:22 PM, Matthew Magruder wrote:
>> Carmen
>> Not sure if its been mentioned as of yet, if so,
>> disregard. I learned from Clay harmon (by way of he and
>> Kerik) that the   glyoxal wont yellow as long as you do a
>> gum layer within a few days   of sizing.
>> I also learned this the hard way through my own
>> experiences. Sized   6 (7x17) prints, managed to get the
>> first gum layers on 5 of them   and forgot about the 6th.
>> after a few days it yellowed horribly and   the other 5
>> were just fine.  So I keep that one for an example of  
>>what not to do when people ask. 
>> hope that helps and isnt incredibly redundant.
>> Matt
>> On Sep 26, 2006, at 2:51 PM, Carmen Lizardo wrote:
>>> Dear Chris and Kerik,
>>> I would love to brush size my paper, specially because
>>> use a full sheet of 22x30 inches when I print, and you
>>> could only imaging how long that takes and how much
>>> gelatin I need, but I can't seem to be able to get an
>>> even coat, and mixing glyoxal and gelatin together is
>>> out because I have to able to rise it off the gelatin
>>> to prevent yellow stains.  Of course when I used Glut,
>>> it was from black magic and that did not work. I also
>>> felt it in ky eyes and throat and i not even the
>>> sensitive type.  I am willing to try again, maybe with
>>> a different glut?? Any pointers that you can give me
>>> with the brushing??  I was thinking that it had to do
>>> with the size of my paper. The gelatin gets hard
>>> before I have time to cover the whole 22x30 sheet.
>>> Thank you kindly,
>>> Carmen
>>> --- "kerik@kerik.com" <kerik@kerik.com> wrote:
>>>> Chris,
>>>> I agree that tray sizing is a lot of mess and hassle
>>>> for no substantial
>>>> benefit. Plus, why do the sizing in 2 steps when it
>>>> can be done in one? I
>>>> use either a glass rod (puddle pusher) and/or a
>>>> brush.  I add the hardener
>>>> (formaldehyde in my case) to the sizing just before
>>>> sizing each print.
>>>> Three drops of formaldehyde and 5 ml of 3% sizing
>>>> easily does an 8x10 to
>>>> 11x14 print.  In these tiny amounts, exposure to
>>>> formaldehyde (or whatever
>>>> hardener one uses) is minimal. I get very even
>>>> sizing this way. A little
>>>> bit of curl to the paper, but nothing that causes
>>>> any problems.
>>>> I tried B.M. glut and did not like the results. It
>>>> resulted in slower
>>>> development and considerably more staining than with
>>>> formaldehyde.
>>>> As for sizing with unhardened gelatin, that sounds
>>>> like another in a long
>>>> line of T King's erroneous hyperboles.
>>>> Speaking of gum, I taught a gumover workshop in
>>>> Philladelphia this past
>>>> weekend for www.projectbasho.org. On sunday it was
>>>> 80 degrees F and 82%
>>>> humidity in the darkroom. That's the first time I've
>>>> printed gum in
>>>> sauna-like conditions and it created some hassles
>>>> with very slow
>>>> development and the need to intervene with some
>>>> brute force measures
>>>> (brushes, fingernails, sandpaper). Anybody have
>>>> similar problems printing
>>>> gum in high humidity?  The conditions seemed to
>>>> cause problems with the
>>>> sizing in particular because development was much
>>>> closer to normal when I
>>>> did a single coat of gum on unsized paper right out
>>>> of the plastic bag. I'm
>>>> speculating that the humidity either prevented the
>>>> gelatin from hardening
>>>> completely or it allowed the gum solution to soak
>>>> into the sizing a bit
>>>> rather than sitting on top. Despite the problems, I
>>>> believe a good time was
>>>> had by all. Although I always want things to go
>>>> smoothly during the
>>>> workshops, it's good for the students to learn how
>>>> to deal with problems
>>>> when they come up.
>>>> Kerik
>>>> www.kerik.com
>>>> Original Message:
>>>> -----------------
>>>> From: Christina Z. Anderson zphoto@montana.net
>>>> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 08:08:22 -0600
>>>> To: alt-photo-process-L@usask.ca
>>>> Subject: brush vs tray size for gum
>>>> Hi All,
>>>> This weekend was time for sizing paper, and since I
>>>> was doing small sizes
>>>> (11x14's) I decided to tray size instead of brush
>>>> size to see if it had any
>>>> added benefits to brush sizing.
>>>> I was sizing with gelatin glutaraldehyde as usual.
>>>> I did use a piece of it
>>>> right away, same day, and had no problem with the
>>>> sizing not being hardened
>>>> and producing "magenta squares" as did Carmen.
>>>> However, I was using glut
>>>> that I bought from a medical supply house (now
>>>> available at the
>>>> Photographer's Formulary) and not Black Magic.  The
>>>> gelatin on my paper was
>>>> not slimy in any way so I know it was hardened. I am
>>>> still not sure why
>>>> Carmen got that problem, and am wondering about the
>>>> suitability of Black
>>>> Magic, therefore, with its added sulfite. It sounds
>>>> like the same result I
>>>> had when I tried Terry King's advice to use
>>>> unhardened gelatin and got
>>>> black
>>>> squares.
>>>> With tray sizing and cautions with glut, I gelatin
>>>> sized the paper first,
>>>> and then the next day I soaked the sized paper
>>>> OUTSIDE in a tray of 50ml
>>>> glut to a gallon of water.  That worked well, but I
>>>> would only tray size if
>>>> the hardening part could be done outside to minimize
>>>> fumes produced by the
>>>> surface area of a whole tray of hardener, whatever
>>>> type--glut, gly,
>>>> formaldehyde. (When I brush size I keep the solution
>>>> capped inside a
>>>> thermos
>>>> and pour out a cup at once.) The gelatin paper went
>>>> in "slimy" feeling, and
>>>> went out unslimy.
>>>> The paper works fine but I learned a couple things:
>>>> paper tray sized with
>>>> gelatin will sink to the bottom, not float as does
>>>> brush sized paper
>>>> (except
>>>> Arches) so if I am going to leave the paper soaking
>>>> for a while it needs to
>>>> be face up. I learned that the hard way. Back to
>>>> floaters and sinkers, Mark.
>>>> The paper does curl less than brush sized, but it
>>>> doesn't seem worth the
>>>> added trouble of trays. This is the only benefit I
>>>> can see.  Oh, maybe more
>>>> evenness of sizing?  I don't know this one
>>>> yet...will have to print all
>>>> papers.
>>>> My husband set up an ingenious "clothesline" for
>>>> me--a rung ladder on its
>>>> side has plenty of hanger-ready rungs.
>>>> I learned another thing the hard way:  I printed 4
>>>> prints on the unsized
>>>> but
>>>> shrunk paper with a cyanotype layer, put the paper
>>>> through the hot gelatin
>>>> sizing process and didn't THINK that the
>>>> 140-whatever degree gelatin would
>>>> shrink the paper even more and make registration a
>>>> B---H but you bet it
>>>> did--warped and shrunk. Luckily only 4 prints
>>>> ruined. DUH. Or, as Clay
>>>> says,
>>>> DOH.
>>>> The bottom line is that brush sizing is sooo much
>>>> easier and works well and
>>>> uses way less gelatin--I sized 24 11x14s with a a
>>>> liter of 3%, and normally
>>>> I can do that many 16x20s with the same. I don't
>>>> think even with small
>>>> sizes
>>>> I would tray size...
>>>> That's all my truly exciting weekend experience!
>>>> Chris
>>>> CZAphotography.com
>>>> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
>>>> http://mail2web.com/ .
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