U of S | Mailing List Archive | alt-photo-process-l | Re: brush vs tray size for gum

Re: brush vs tray size for gum

WHOOPS I mean Matthew...my bad.

----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Katharine Thayer <kthayer@pacifier.com>
To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
Subject: Re: brush vs tray size for gum
Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 10:44:50 -0700

>Matthew, I'm curious whether you actually tried printing
>gum on the   yellowed paper.   The reason I ask is that, as
>I mentioned the other   day,  while Arches bright white
>does turn ivory-colored for me after   application of
>glyoxal (although FAEW didn't) I've found that if I   print
>gum on the ivoried paper, it reverts to snow white in the  
>development water, and that''s why I don't bother with a
>separate   rinse at the time of sizing.
>On Sep 26, 2006, at 1:22 PM, Matthew Magruder wrote:
>> Carmen
>> Not sure if its been mentioned as of yet, if so,
>> disregard. I learned from Clay harmon (by way of he and
>> Kerik) that the   glyoxal wont yellow as long as you do a
>> gum layer within a few days   of sizing.
>> I also learned this the hard way through my own
>> experiences. Sized   6 (7x17) prints, managed to get the
>> first gum layers on 5 of them   and forgot about the 6th.
>> after a few days it yellowed horribly and   the other 5
>> were just fine.  So I keep that one for an example of  
>>what not to do when people ask. 
>> hope that helps and isnt incredibly redundant.
>> Matt
>> On Sep 26, 2006, at 2:51 PM, Carmen Lizardo wrote:
>>> Dear Chris and Kerik,
>>> I would love to brush size my paper, specially because
>>> use a full sheet of 22x30 inches when I print, and you
>>> could only imaging how long that takes and how much
>>> gelatin I need, but I can't seem to be able to get an
>>> even coat, and mixing glyoxal and gelatin together is
>>> out because I have to able to rise it off the gelatin
>>> to prevent yellow stains.  Of course when I used Glut,
>>> it was from black magic and that did not work. I also
>>> felt it in ky eyes and throat and i not even the
>>> sensitive type.  I am willing to try again, maybe with
>>> a different glut?? Any pointers that you can give me
>>> with the brushing??  I was thinking that it had to do
>>> with the size of my paper. The gelatin gets hard
>>> before I have time to cover the whole 22x30 sheet.
>>> Thank you kindly,
>>> Carmen
>>> --- "kerik@kerik.com" <kerik@kerik.com> wrote:
>>>> Chris,
>>>> I agree that tray sizing is a lot of mess and hassle
>>>> for no substantial
>>>> benefit. Plus, why do the sizing in 2 steps when it
>>>> can be done in one? I
>>>> use either a glass rod (puddle pusher) and/or a
>>>> brush.  I add the hardener
>>>> (formaldehyde in my case) to the sizing just before
>>>> sizing each print.
>>>> Three drops of formaldehyde and 5 ml of 3% sizing
>>>> easily does an 8x10 to
>>>> 11x14 print.  In these tiny amounts, exposure to
>>>> formaldehyde (or whatever
>>>> hardener one uses) is minimal. I get very even
>>>> sizing this way. A little
>>>> bit of curl to the paper, but nothing that causes
>>>> any problems.
>>>> I tried B.M. glut and did not like the results. It
>>>> resulted in slower
>>>> development and considerably more staining than with
>>>> formaldehyde.
>>>> As for sizing with unhardened gelatin, that sounds
>>>> like another in a long
>>>> line of T King's erroneous hyperboles.
>>>> Speaking of gum, I taught a gumover workshop in
>>>> Philladelphia this past
>>>> weekend for www.projectbasho.org. On sunday it was
>>>> 80 degrees F and 82%
>>>> humidity in the darkroom. That's the first time I've
>>>> printed gum in
>>>> sauna-like conditions and it created some hassles
>>>> with very slow
>>>> development and the need to intervene with some
>>>> brute force measures
>>>> (brushes, fingernails, sandpaper). Anybody have
>>>> similar problems printing
>>>> gum in high humidity?  The conditions seemed to
>>>> cause problems with the
>>>> sizing in particular because development was much
>>>> closer to normal when I
>>>> did a single coat of gum on unsized paper right out
>>>> of the plastic bag. I'm
>>>> speculating that the humidity either prevented the
>>>> gelatin from hardening
>>>> completely or it allowed the gum solution to soak
>>>> into the sizing a bit
>>>> rather than sitting on top. Despite the problems, I
>>>> believe a good time was
>>>> had by all. Although I always want things to go
>>>> smoothly during the
>>>> workshops, it's good for the students to learn how
>>>> to deal with problems
>>>> when they come up.
>>>> Kerik
>>>> www.kerik.com
>>>> Original Message:
>>>> -----------------
>>>> From: Christina Z. Anderson zphoto@montana.net
>>>> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 08:08:22 -0600
>>>> To: alt-photo-process-L@usask.ca
>>>> Subject: brush vs tray size for gum
>>>> Hi All,
>>>> This weekend was time for sizing paper, and since I
>>>> was doing small sizes
>>>> (11x14's) I decided to tray size instead of brush
>>>> size to see if it had any
>>>> added benefits to brush sizing.
>>>> I was sizing with gelatin glutaraldehyde as usual.
>>>> I did use a piece of it
>>>> right away, same day, and had no problem with the
>>>> sizing not being hardened
>>>> and producing "magenta squares" as did Carmen.
>>>> However, I was using glut
>>>> that I bought from a medical supply house (now
>>>> available at the
>>>> Photographer's Formulary) and not Black Magic.  The
>>>> gelatin on my paper was
>>>> not slimy in any way so I know it was hardened. I am
>>>> still not sure why
>>>> Carmen got that problem, and am wondering about the
>>>> suitability of Black
>>>> Magic, therefore, with its added sulfite. It sounds
>>>> like the same result I
>>>> had when I tried Terry King's advice to use
>>>> unhardened gelatin and got
>>>> black
>>>> squares.
>>>> With tray sizing and cautions with glut, I gelatin
>>>> sized the paper first,
>>>> and then the next day I soaked the sized paper
>>>> OUTSIDE in a tray of 50ml
>>>> glut to a gallon of water.  That worked well, but I
>>>> would only tray size if
>>>> the hardening part could be done outside to minimize
>>>> fumes produced by the
>>>> surface area of a whole tray of hardener, whatever
>>>> type--glut, gly,
>>>> formaldehyde. (When I brush size I keep the solution
>>>> capped inside a
>>>> thermos
>>>> and pour out a cup at once.) The gelatin paper went
>>>> in "slimy" feeling, and
>>>> went out unslimy.
>>>> The paper works fine but I learned a couple things:
>>>> paper tray sized with
>>>> gelatin will sink to the bottom, not float as does
>>>> brush sized paper
>>>> (except
>>>> Arches) so if I am going to leave the paper soaking
>>>> for a while it needs to
>>>> be face up. I learned that the hard way. Back to
>>>> floaters and sinkers, Mark.
>>>> The paper does curl less than brush sized, but it
>>>> doesn't seem worth the
>>>> added trouble of trays. This is the only benefit I
>>>> can see.  Oh, maybe more
>>>> evenness of sizing?  I don't know this one
>>>> yet...will have to print all
>>>> papers.
>>>> My husband set up an ingenious "clothesline" for
>>>> me--a rung ladder on its
>>>> side has plenty of hanger-ready rungs.
>>>> I learned another thing the hard way:  I printed 4
>>>> prints on the unsized
>>>> but
>>>> shrunk paper with a cyanotype layer, put the paper
>>>> through the hot gelatin
>>>> sizing process and didn't THINK that the
>>>> 140-whatever degree gelatin would
>>>> shrink the paper even more and make registration a
>>>> B---H but you bet it
>>>> did--warped and shrunk. Luckily only 4 prints
>>>> ruined. DUH. Or, as Clay
>>>> says,
>>>> DOH.
>>>> The bottom line is that brush sizing is sooo much
>>>> easier and works well and
>>>> uses way less gelatin--I sized 24 11x14s with a a
>>>> liter of 3%, and normally
>>>> I can do that many 16x20s with the same. I don't
>>>> think even with small
>>>> sizes
>>>> I would tray size...
>>>> That's all my truly exciting weekend experience!
>>>> Chris
>>>> CZAphotography.com
>>>> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
>>>> http://mail2web.com/ .
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