[alt-photo] Re: IDEA? NEW ALT PHOTO BOOK

Fri Apr 23 18:33:31 GMT 2010

Well, I've commented on this before, but I'll just say again that I  
use PVA only on BFK Rives, which really seems to absorb it-- rather  
than sort of lay up on top of it (as I felt it did with Fabriano,  
specifically).  In fact, if Fabriano was the only paper I was using, I  
would not use PVA.  I did think the gelatin/glut performed more to my  
liking when using the Fabriano.  No matter the amount of dilution I  
tried, I did not like the way it never seemed to absorb into the  
paper, but-- as I said-- simply sit on top of it.  And the final look  
was very different from the way it looks with Rives.  I don't even  
dilute it with Rives, but I don't get that hard plastic sort of  
coating at all, as I seemed to with the Fabriano--   With the Rives, I  
get only a very slight sheen that I actually like and that is really  
only noticeable if holding the paper at an angle.  I recently tried  
PVA with some Hahnemuhle German Etching paper where it worked in much  
the same way as the Rives.  I really liked that, too-- in fact,  
better-- and, for me anyway, so far superior to gelatin/glut.    I  
also had much less staining, once I started using the PVA.   So-- a  
completely opposite experience here.

But it's obvious that the PVA works quite differently on different  
papers.  As I said, I personally hated PVA with the Fabriano-- didn't  
like the look or the feel.  And Chris, your comment that you actually  
found "layers still manipulatable"  or fragile when put back into the  
water, I find really interesting.  I've actually attempted to do that  
a couple of times, with absolutely no success-- those layers wouldn't  
budge.

Interestingly, I have coated Rives with PVA and then put the coated  
papers aside to return to them later.  A couple of times, I had a  
paper sitting there and hadn't marked that I'd already coated it, and  
I had to look really carefully, because I just couldn't see that I'd  
done it.  So it must really absorb it very differently. That would  
make for an interesting test, trying it out among all these papers and  
other substrates, because when I read some of these posts, it's as  
though people are talking about a totally different product.

Diana

On Apr 23, 2010, at 1:48 PM, Keith Gerling wrote:

> Chris ponders "My question is does each layer you do of dichromated  
> gum on
> top of a layer of previously hardened gelatin also affect the  
> gelatin below
> (another colloid) and does it, in fact, affect a layer of PVA in the  
> same
> way?"
>
> I've been wondering the same thing, and I have to thank Chris for  
> doing the
> heavy thinking here regarding the possible differences between the
> interactions of gum/pva and gum/gelatin.  As Paul mentions, I  
> noticed the
> same things you did about how comfortably hardened (or so I thought)  
> layers
> can suddenly go all "fragile" again.  Very frustrating.  I noticed  
> some
> degree of staining, but that seemed to go away with higher PVA/water  
> ratio.
> I'm using 1 to 1.5, PVA to water.
>
> I SO WANT this PVA to work, because like you say, it is a magic  
> bullet.  I
> never realized how much I hated the gelatin/glut/hotplate ritual,  
> until I
> started using PVA.  But, just as soon as I get these 35 pictures  
> done for a
> show, I'm going back to gelatin!  That is, until I get another offer  
> for a
> 35 picture show!  The PVA just makes everything go so FAST.  But I  
> just hate
> the shiny surface.  Some of my "fans" have noticed the difference in  
> the
> surface and are bemoaning the change.  I'm getting request for  
> things done
> the "old way" from people that I never would have thought would  
> notice these
> things.
>
> Personally, and I don't have any empirical data to back this up, but a
> gelatin sized print gives the appearance of being "blended", while  
> the PVA
> prints just look like a stack of layers.
>
> Keith
>
> On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 8:31 AM, Christina Anderson <zphoto at montana.net 
> >wrote:
>
>> Bob,
>>
>> I think it could be a good thick chapter of a book...
>>
>> I am probably opening up a can of worms here...
>>
>> I've been using the Gamblin PVA size now and taught it to my class  
>> this
>> semester in place of glutaraldehyde hardened 2.8% gelatin (6ml of  
>> 2.5% per
>> liter), and it is a great teaching method and really user  
>> friendly.  Boy was
>> my life easier--no hot plate, massive sizing day, mess, toxicity.   
>> PVA you
>> can just "size as you go". It is the "magic bullet" of teaching for  
>> sure.
>>
>> I use it 1+2 on Artistico.   I found more issues with staining with  
>> PVA
>> than with glut/gelatin but that I think is specifically related to  
>> having to
>> determine the dilution of PVA for each specific paper.  I almost  
>> think
>> Fabriano might benefit from either a 1 + 1.5 or an intermediate  
>> layer of
>> sizing between multiple coats. But at a point, then, PVA becomes  
>> too slick
>> and plasticy.
>>
>> However, after having worked with it all semester I slightly prefer
>> glut/gelatin.  **But** I am not sure I prefer the latter enough to  
>> go to all
>> the trouble to do it.  With tray sized sheets gelatin is no big  
>> deal, but
>> with 15x22 size sheets it is a pain. PVA wins, hands down, for
>> user-friendliness.
>>
>> I will be finishing up two large gum projects this summer so we'll  
>> see by
>> the end of summer how I feel--if I go back to gelatin in my own  
>> work, in
>> other words.  I will continue to teach the non-toxic PVA method,  
>> but parts
>> of me think I should still at least show students traditional  
>> sizing because
>> of a concern I am feeling.
>>
>> My concern is this:  when I take a print out of the water to hang  
>> to dry,
>> even the border of the print is what I would call "unstable"-- 
>> meaning a
>> fingerprint on it will mar it quite extensively in a way I have not  
>> seen
>> with gelatin sized paper. Anecdotally, a rewetted PVA print SEEMS  
>> also less
>> stable--layers still manipulatable.  Is that an issue?  I don't  
>> know.  My
>> question is does each layer you do of dichromated gum on top of a  
>> layer of
>> previously hardened gelatin also affect the gelatin below (another  
>> colloid)
>> and does it, in fact, affect a layer of PVA in the same way?  Or  
>> can the
>> layer of gelatin even GET rehardened repeatedly with each  
>> succeeding layer
>> of dichromated gum or is it hardened once and for all with the glut  
>> and that
>> is it--successive layers do nothing?
>>
>> Or is this just a "hydrophilic" thing, or that gum is (how would  
>> you say)
>> "attracted" to PVA in the same way it is to a surface of gelatin?   
>> Are, in
>> effect, PVA and gelatin truly interchangeable in sizing or is it  
>> possible
>> that each layer of hardened gum has better adhesion to a layer of  
>> gelatin
>> vs. a layer of PVA, probably only visible at the microscopic level?
>>
>> Maybe the scientists of the list can answer these questions and put  
>> my mind
>> to rest, because my lurking fear is that the gum print on top of  
>> the PVA may
>> not be as stable in the long run as one on top of gelatin.  A non- 
>> scientific
>> test I will do in a couple months is soak a PVA'ed print and a  
>> gelatin-sized
>> print, old ones, side by side, and scratch and see the results. But  
>> I don't
>> know if that proves anything.
>>
>> I hope someone will come on list and say this fear is completely  
>> unfounded,
>> that both sizings create equally stable final prints. Anecdotally, a
>> rewetted PVA print SEEMS also less stable--layers still  
>> manipulatable.  Is
>> that an issue?  I don't know.  My question is does each layer you  
>> do of
>> dichromated gum on top of a layer of previously hardened gelatin  
>> also affect
>> the gelatin below (another colloid) and does it, in fact, affect a  
>> layer of
>> PVA in the same way?  Or can the layer of gelatin even GET rehardened
>> repeatedly with each succeeding layer of dichromated gum or is it  
>> hardened
>> once and for all with the glut and that is it--successive layers do  
>> nothing?
>>
>> I have no answers, just asking the hard questions....on this quest  
>> for the
>> most perfect, easiest size.
>>
>> Now, as far as other processes aside from gum....salt...hmmm....
>>
>> Chris
>>
>>
>> Christina Z. Anderson
>> christinaZanderson.com
>>
>> On Apr 22, 2010, at 8:54 PM, BOB KISS wrote:
>>
>>> DEAR LIST,
>>>
>>>           I have been faithfully reading most postings on this list
>> since,
>>> I think, 1998.  Many, many postings have been very informative  
>>> about the
>>> amazing number of options for sizing many different kinds of paper  
>>> for
>> the
>>> many alt processes.  I really think it is time for someone to  
>>> collate all
>>> this info into a new alt photo book.  I hereby propose that the  
>>> title be,
>>> SIZE MATTERS.  Any takers (as it were)?  ;-))
>>>
>>>                       CHEERS!
>>>
>>>                                   BOB
>>
>>> Please check my website:  <http://www.bobkiss.com/>
>> http://www.bobkiss.com/
>>>
>>> "Live as if you are going to die tomorrow.  Learn as if you are  
>>> going to
>>> live forever".  Mahatma Gandhi
>>> ______________________________________________
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>>
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