From jseigel at panix.com Tue Mar 2 04:02:42 2010 From: jseigel at panix.com (Judy Seigel) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 23:02:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: clearing pd prints... In-Reply-To: References: <00db01cab4c1$315014a0$93f03de0$@com><007f01cab53d$ad8f4280$08adc780$@com><78C563B38EC84825ADBB0E0A98DD9856@altinyildiz.trk> <000f01cab7f0$551b5890$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: Hi guys, It's been such a pleasure to read this thread (among others), because my system has been completely and totally screwed up (daughter used it all morning on another planet) and it took me almost an hour just to get on line (OK, it may not have been quite that long, but it seemed like it), plus the nuances of "clearing pd prints" make gum printing seem SIMPLE !! (Soak print face down in plain water while you eat breakfast.) THANKS so very much.... I feel better already. Judy From mail at loris.medici.name Tue Mar 2 08:33:06 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 10:33:06 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: clearing pd prints... In-Reply-To: References: <00db01cab4c1$315014a0$93f03de0$@com> <007f01cab53d$ad8f4280$08adc780$@com> <78C563B38EC84825ADBB0E0A98DD9856@altinyildiz.trk> <000f01cab7f0$551b5890$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: <725fa8581003020033g55c2d619w83d072a336fcd299@mail.gmail.com> Yes Judy, gum is very simple indeed, but to master it isn't at all... :) Just like the Go game; learning it takes 1 hour at max, but mastering it takes a lifetime. BTW, pt/pd printing is the simplest and most straightforward process that I know. With students I start with cyanotype, just to to "tame" them. They're always amazed about how pt/pd is easy (with right tools of course) after cyanotype. Making good quality cyanotypes is much bigger challenge compared to pt/pd.. Regards, Loris. 2010/3/2 Judy Seigel : > ... > the nuances of "clearing pd prints" make gum printing seem SIMPLE !! (Soak print > face down in plain water while you eat breakfast.) > > THANKS so very much.... I feel better already. > ... From mail at loris.medici.name Tue Mar 2 08:44:03 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 10:44:03 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: clearing pd prints... In-Reply-To: <725fa8581003020033g55c2d619w83d072a336fcd299@mail.gmail.com> References: <00db01cab4c1$315014a0$93f03de0$@com> <007f01cab53d$ad8f4280$08adc780$@com> <78C563B38EC84825ADBB0E0A98DD9856@altinyildiz.trk> <000f01cab7f0$551b5890$c600a8c0@dell4600> <725fa8581003020033g55c2d619w83d072a336fcd299@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <725fa8581003020044y8a4296j14025cfced8c8368@mail.gmail.com> For sake of not being misunderstood: pt/pd is easy thanks to all the people (most notably pioneers/masters) who kindly shared their knowledge with us, plus (a big PLUS!), it's very consistent process or better, the parameter set is way smaller. With gum there are so many parameters to deal with, and even if you study under a master, you need to relearn it... That's what makes gum complicated compared to pt/pd. 2010/3/2 Loris Medici : > Yes Judy, gum is very simple indeed, but to master it isn't at all... > :) Just like the Go game; learning it takes 1 hour at max, but > mastering it takes a lifetime. > > BTW, pt/pd printing is the simplest and most straightforward process > that I know. > > With students I start with cyanotype, just to to "tame" them. They're > always amazed about how pt/pd is easy (with right tools of course) > after cyanotype. Making good quality cyanotypes is much bigger > challenge compared to pt/pd.. > > Regards, > Loris. > > > 2010/3/2 Judy Seigel : >> ... >> the nuances of "clearing pd prints" make gum printing seem SIMPLE !! (Soak print >> face down in plain water while you eat breakfast.) >> >> THANKS so very much.... I feel better already. >> ... > From keith.gerling at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 18:18:22 2010 From: keith.gerling at gmail.com (Keith Gerling) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 12:18:22 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: clearing pd prints... In-Reply-To: References: <00db01cab4c1$315014a0$93f03de0$@com> <007f01cab53d$ad8f4280$08adc780$@com> <78C563B38EC84825ADBB0E0A98DD9856@altinyildiz.trk> <000f01cab7f0$551b5890$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: <98766a901003021018q4ef27f91x4dce4179567b73f4@mail.gmail.com> I feel exactly the same way, Judy. I feel fortunate that I will never make another PL/PD print. I think I have YOU to thank for that! On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 10:02 PM, Judy Seigel wrote: > Hi guys, > > It's been such a pleasure to read this thread (among others), because my > system has been completely and totally screwed up (daughter used it all > morning on another planet) and it took me almost an hour just to get on line > (OK, it may not have been quite that long, but it seemed like it), plus the > nuances of "clearing pd prints" make gum printing seem SIMPLE !! (Soak print > face down in plain water while you eat breakfast.) > > THANKS so very much.... I feel better already. > > Judy > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 2 18:32:51 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:32:51 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: clearing pd prints... In-Reply-To: <98766a901003021018q4ef27f91x4dce4179567b73f4@mail.gmail.com> References: <00db01cab4c1$315014a0$93f03de0$@com> <007f01cab53d$ad8f4280$08adc780$@com> <78C563B38EC84825ADBB0E0A98DD9856@altinyildiz.trk> <000f01cab7f0$551b5890$c600a8c0@dell4600> <98766a901003021018q4ef27f91x4dce4179567b73f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Well, I recently did my taxes, and I like to separate out all my expenses on a spreadsheet, which tells me where all my money is going-- exactly where I'm spending it. And since I've been doing gum printing (more than pt/pd, which used to be my first choice of alt process), I can't believe how much money I've saved. And I have to admit, when I do any pt/pd printing now, it really does seem kind of boring, especially compared to gum printing. I know I have a ton of people to thank on this list for that-- as I've been inspired and helped by all the terrific gum printers on this list, including Judy (the PF Journal, especially!); Keith (whose work I just find so appealing); Katharine, Chris, Jim, etc. I'm still so intrigued by this process that I feel like I learn something new everyday, and I just love the way a print comes together-- especially with tri-color gums-- just never ceases to amaze me. And I do really like that whole water bath development and going off to do something else. :) Diana On Mar 2, 2010, at 1:18 PM, Keith Gerling wrote: > I feel exactly the same way, Judy. I feel fortunate that I will > never make > another PL/PD print. I think I have YOU to thank for that! > > On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 10:02 PM, Judy Seigel > wrote: > >> Hi guys, >> >> It's been such a pleasure to read this thread (among others), >> because my >> system has been completely and totally screwed up (daughter used it >> all >> morning on another planet) and it took me almost an hour just to >> get on line >> (OK, it may not have been quite that long, but it seemed like it), >> plus the >> nuances of "clearing pd prints" make gum printing seem SIMPLE !! >> (Soak print >> face down in plain water while you eat breakfast.) >> >> THANKS so very much.... I feel better already. >> >> Judy >> >> From mail at loris.medici.name Tue Mar 2 18:58:56 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 20:58:56 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: clearing pd prints... In-Reply-To: References: <007f01cab53d$ad8f4280$08adc780$@com> <78C563B38EC84825ADBB0E0A98DD9856@altinyildiz.trk> <000f01cab7f0$551b5890$c600a8c0@dell4600> <98766a901003021018q4ef27f91x4dce4179567b73f4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <725fa8581003021058o7e4b6f0bi3364a286470e17d9@mail.gmail.com> That's exactly why I don't print pt/pd anymore! :) I still have the same 50ml pd solution sitting on the shelf for more than 2 years. And I think if I'm going to ever use it, it will be for a gumover... Regards, Loris. 2010/3/2 Diana Bloomfield : > ... > And I have to admit, when I do any pt/pd printing now, it > really does seem kind of boring, especially compared to gum printing. > ... >?I'm still so intrigued by this > process that I feel like I learn something new everyday, and I just love the > way a print comes together-- especially with tri-color gums-- just never > ceases to amaze me. > ... From viapiano at pacbell.net Tue Mar 2 19:29:22 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 11:29:22 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: clearing pd prints... References: <00db01cab4c1$315014a0$93f03de0$@com><007f01cab53d$ad8f4280$08adc780$@com><78C563B38EC84825ADBB0E0A98DD9856@altinyildiz.trk><000f01cab7f0$551b5890$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: <000e01caba3e$aa0f7980$c600a8c0@dell4600> Judy, you're hilarious! The only thing simple about anything called gum is chewing it... Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy Seigel" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:02 PM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: clearing pd prints... > Hi guys, > > It's been such a pleasure to read this thread (among others), because my > system has been completely and totally screwed up (daughter used it all > morning on another planet) and it took me almost an hour just to get on > line (OK, it may not have been quite that long, but it seemed like it), > plus the nuances of "clearing pd prints" make gum printing seem SIMPLE !! > (Soak print face down in plain water while you eat breakfast.) > > THANKS so very much.... I feel better already. > > Judy > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca Tue Mar 2 22:31:23 2010 From: pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca (pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 17:31:23 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Multi coat Gum -3rd+ coats tends to wash off In-Reply-To: <78C563B38EC84825ADBB0E0A98DD9856@altinyildiz.trk> References: <00db01cab4c1$315014a0$93f03de0$@com> <007f01cab53d$ad8f4280$08adc780$@com> <78C563B38EC84825ADBB0E0A98DD9856@altinyildiz.trk> Message-ID: Loris et al, I was attempting to produce very saturated layers and in that attempt, I increased the gum concentration in order to accommodate (without staining), the amount of pigment that was required. Once I reduced the gum and pigment concentration, the adhesion was improved and the top layer behaved. I still have no understanding as to why there were no problems with these thick layers when laying down the cyan layer first. Thanks to all for the assistance. Peter At 04:35 AM 02/26/2010, you wrote: >I'm not sure if changing the order of layers does indeed help the emulsion >to cling onto paper. (I don't think so but that's gum!) My understanding of >Keith's (highly plausible) practice comes from the fact that printing cyan >first makes easy to register subsequent layers. Also what really ruins a gum >print is often an error in the cyan layer (paraphrasing Keith - I agree >completely), so printing it first will let you decide if it's worth to >continue and/or allow to change your strategy before it's too late. (Again, >highly plausible explanation; even if you don't follow their path exactly, >it's very beneficial to listen to the masters...) The only disadvantage (if >you like...) of this method is that you have to choose pretty transparent >yellows and reds/magentas for subsequent layers - if not, you'll have a >distinct haze over your dark tones. OTOH, that could change the look >completely. May work for you or may not... > >If your emulsion doesn't leave the paper in bits and pieces (flaking that >is), then you probably don't have to fiddle with pigment amounts. >(Especially if you're happy with the colors you're getting.) > >IME, if you use a relatively thick coating solution, you definitely need to >brush pretty harshly to be able to get a nice smooth and thin layer. Maybe >you should try to lightly size the paper (with 3% hardened gelatin or >diluted PVA size) to minimize the risk of staining. > >Play with the exposures a little bit - just as Paul mentioned. That could >help indeed, in case it doesn't negatively affect your darks in the same >time. > >What exactly is your coating solution's formulation? If it's gum/pigment + >dichromate 1:1, you may try to add extra 1/2 to 1 part water and see how >that works. (1 gum/pigment + 1 dichromate + 1/2 or 1 water...) > >Hope this helps & good luck! >Regards, >Loris. > > >-----Original Message----- >From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf Of >pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca >Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 1:16 AM >To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list >Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Multi coat Gum -3rd+ coats tends to wash off > >John, > >I reversed the layers by moving the cyan to the first layer rather than the >last. Funny that this allowed the top layer (now magenta) to adhere well. >There was a post that I found in the list archives of Sept 2008 by Keith >Gerling who suggested printing cyan first. > >Now having said all of this, I still do believe that it shouldn't matter >which color goes first in terms of adhesion so I suspect that the amount of >dried gum left after development must be in excess. I will do some >adjustments by diluting the gum concentration, and if need be, the pigment >load as well. Your suggestion of going over it with a dry foam roller may >also be worth a try however I do find that the slightest pressure on the >paper from a foam roller increases staining, a tleast that was my experience >when I gave it a go some time ago. > >Peter Friedrichsen > >At 05:39 AM 02/24/2010, you wrote: > >Hi Peter, > > > >Yes, there are some that don't size but you may get staining issues. > >Also, when stretching and developing you may lose some of the manufacturers >size. > >It is gum compatible because it has a good wet strength and is > >dimensionally stable. > > > >I use FAEW HP, sized with gelatine and have put down 7 or 8 layers on > >one image. I'm with Loris here on the thickness of your layers. I find > >I can get a very thin layer by coating with a foam brush and then using > >a dry foam roller to even out the coating. > >_______________________________________________ >Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Tue Mar 2 22:33:00 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 15:33:00 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] dichromate stain Message-ID: <30B470D1-B2C4-4EFB-A4B1-9F21DEC3215F@montana.net> Dear All, Wow, what a neat university, Kansas State is. Beautiful campus, photo dept. now run by Armon Means. In the two day gum workshop I got the pleasure of working with an HMI light for the first time. Never a dull moment when you do workshops in different setups. I had never used this light source. I completely judged exposure wrong and had to recalibrate several times, to an exposure of 2 minutes and a 7.5% dichromate. At home I do 5 or 6 with UVBL. The HMI (i think that is what it is; it is a very hot very bright sunlamp that is square?) would not be my first choice of light source but what the heck. It was fast if very hot and very bright. But what I found was that if I used this light source I might find clearing useful. On my website I have a side by side of uncleared/cleared so you can see what I mean! http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=2076 Pot metabi did the trick of course, but I do much prefer UVBL. Also, for the first time I taught with PVA at a 1+2 dilution on Rives BFK and nary a problem. I use 1+2 on Artistico, but might use 1:1 on Rives if I used Rives. Marek, you are a Godsend, thank you for sharing it. And Marek, there was a woman who brought one of those squares of a gum print that was all overexposed and she was brilliant enough to bring the bleach with her, and we did your bleach trick. Man, bleach will dissolve the entire gum print if given the chance, but what a GREAT 'nother tool to use when facing an overexposed print. How much fun... Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com From rwybeaker at hotmail.com Tue Mar 2 22:48:11 2010 From: rwybeaker at hotmail.com (Robert Young) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 16:48:11 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: dichromate stain In-Reply-To: <30B470D1-B2C4-4EFB-A4B1-9F21DEC3215F@montana.net> References: <30B470D1-B2C4-4EFB-A4B1-9F21DEC3215F@montana.net> Message-ID: > > Dear All, > > Wow, what a neat university, Kansas State is. Beautiful campus, photo dept. now run by Armon Means. > I hope they took you to Last Chance Saloon in Aggieville. And it's too bad Kite's Bar and Grill is gone. That was a institution. Rob Young KSU '91 & '93 rwyoung at ieee.org From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Wed Mar 3 03:13:42 2010 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 03:13:42 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: FotoFest In-Reply-To: <66575de71002241242s628c4ab1sa55989f20dcd911d@mail.gmail.com> References: , <66575de71002241242s628c4ab1sa55989f20dcd911d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Amy, Jeremy, I would love to get together let's discuss since I am in town it is not all that difficult Marek > Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 14:42:26 -0600 > From: jeremydmoore at gmail.com > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: FotoFest > > While on the topic, I'll be down in Houston for FotoFest Thursday, March > 18th - Sunday, March 21st if any alt listers would like to get together. > > -Jeremy- > > On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 2:26 PM, Amy Holmes George > wrote: > > > > > Hi all, > > I was wondering if folks who are attending FotoFest in Houston next month > > would be interested in getting together on Tuesday, March 16 (the day > > between Session I and Session II) to share work and visit. > > Amy Holmes George > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. > > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390707/direct/01/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/ From amyhgeorge at hotmail.com Wed Mar 3 03:34:17 2010 From: amyhgeorge at hotmail.com (Amy Holmes George) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 22:34:17 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: FotoFest In-Reply-To: References: , , <66575de71002241242s628c4ab1sa55989f20dcd911d@mail.gmail.com>, Message-ID: Marek, Sure, sounds great to me. Although, it looks like Jeremy arrives 2 days after my departure . . . It would be great if we could all get together. Anyone else coming? Amy > From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 03:13:42 +0000 > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: FotoFest > > > Amy, Jeremy, > > I would love to get together > > let's discuss > > since I am in town it is not all that difficult > > Marek > > > Date: Wed, 24 Feb 2010 14:42:26 -0600 > > From: jeremydmoore at gmail.com > > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: FotoFest > > > > While on the topic, I'll be down in Houston for FotoFest Thursday, March > > 18th - Sunday, March 21st if any alt listers would like to get together. > > > > -Jeremy- > > > > On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 2:26 PM, Amy Holmes George > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > I was wondering if folks who are attending FotoFest in Houston next month > > > would be interested in getting together on Tuesday, March 16 (the day > > > between Session I and Session II) to share work and visit. > > > Amy Holmes George > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. > > > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390707/direct/01/ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/ From mail at loris.medici.name Wed Mar 3 06:04:19 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 08:04:19 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Multi coat Gum -3rd+ coats tends to wash off In-Reply-To: References: <00db01cab4c1$315014a0$93f03de0$@com><007f01cab53d$ad8f4280$08adc780$@com><78C563B38EC84825ADBB0E0A98DD9856@altinyildiz.trk> Message-ID: See inline comments below. -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf Of pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 12:31 AM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Multi coat Gum -3rd+ coats tends to wash off > I was attempting to produce very saturated layers and in that attempt, I increased the gum concentration in order to accommodate (without staining), the amount of pigment that was required. Once I reduced the gum and pigment concentration, the adhesion was improved and the top layer behaved. < Happy for you! > I still have no understanding as to why there were no problems with these thick layers when laying down the cyan layer first. < Could be something about the structural/physical properties of the specific pigments that you were using or something else, who knows? Don't dig too much, go for the image! ;) Regards, Loris. From john at johnbrewerphotography.com Wed Mar 3 11:25:39 2010 From: john at johnbrewerphotography.com (John Brewer) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 11:25:39 -0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Multi coat Gum -3rd+ coats tends to wash off In-Reply-To: References: <00db01cab4c1$315014a0$93f03de0$@com> <007f01cab53d$ad8f4280$08adc780$@com> <78C563B38EC84825ADBB0E0A98DD9856@altinyildiz.trk> Message-ID: <014201cabac4$40bee890$c23cb9b0$@com> Hi Peter, I'm glad you have solved your adhesion problem. Maybe put down a couple of layers to get the pigment saturation you are after? > I still have no understanding as to why there were no problems with >these thick layers when laying down the cyan layer first. Another idiosyncrasy of gum I guess. Best wishes, John. -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 10:31 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Multi coat Gum -3rd+ coats tends to wash off Loris et al, I was attempting to produce very saturated layers and in that attempt, I increased the gum concentration in order to accommodate (without staining), the amount of pigment that was required. Once I reduced the gum and pigment concentration, the adhesion was improved and the top layer behaved. I still have no understanding as to why there were no problems with these thick layers when laying down the cyan layer first. Thanks to all for the assistance. Peter No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.730 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2714 - Release Date: 03/02/10 19:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.730 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2719 - Release Date: 03/02/10 19:34:00 From zphoto at montana.net Wed Mar 3 12:44:23 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 05:44:23 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] BW POP pinhole Message-ID: Ultra slow pinhole exposures, making BW paper POP (no development): http://lifehacker.com/5479996/construct-an-ultra+slow-pinhole-camera-to-create-surreal-photos Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com From mineurdecharbon at skynet.be Wed Mar 3 12:52:51 2010 From: mineurdecharbon at skynet.be (Philippe Berger) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 13:52:51 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BW POP pinhole References: Message-ID: <26A6664962FE42B8A8AA981CC21031B6@philbrgrf70d3e> See new web site on the Carbon Printing Process http://www.photographieaucharbon.net Philippe mineurdecharbon at skynet.be ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christina Anderson" To: "Alt List" Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 1:44 PM Subject: [alt-photo] BW POP pinhole > Ultra slow pinhole exposures, making BW paper POP (no development): > > > http://lifehacker.com/5479996/construct-an-ultra+slow-pinhole-camera-to-create-surreal-photos > > > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 4911 (20100303) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > From mail at loris.medici.name Wed Mar 3 13:02:55 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 15:02:55 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BW POP pinhole In-Reply-To: <26A6664962FE42B8A8AA981CC21031B6@philbrgrf70d3e> References: <26A6664962FE42B8A8AA981CC21031B6@philbrgrf70d3e> Message-ID: <959BCA41F98848FBA46594530660BD62@altinyildiz.trk> I wonder when Philippe will post anything non self-promoting which is useful at the same time? (Not that I think self-promotion is a bad thing in all circumstances, but when it's the "whole thing" that makes my eyes roll...) Philippe, starting from this very moment you're on my block-list; I hope that this will motivate you in contributing to the list in a broader fashion. Byebye... -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf Of Philippe Berger Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 2:53 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BW POP pinhole See new web site on the Carbon Printing Process http://www.photographieaucharbon.net Philippe mineurdecharbon at skynet.be ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christina Anderson" To: "Alt List" Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 1:44 PM Subject: [alt-photo] BW POP pinhole > Ultra slow pinhole exposures, making BW paper POP (no development): > > http://lifehacker.com/5479996/construct-an-ultra+slow-pinhole-camera-to-crea te-surreal-photos From earlj at comcast.net Wed Mar 3 14:11:11 2010 From: earlj at comcast.net (Earl and Patty Johnson) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 08:11:11 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BW POP pinhole In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B8E6DFF.3000403@comcast.net> The origin of solargraphic pinhole photography is here: http://www.solargraphy.com//. I have two cameras out that I started on Dec. 21 that I will bring in and scan on June 21. Earl Johnson Christina Anderson wrote: > Ultra slow pinhole exposures, making BW paper POP (no development): > > > http://lifehacker.com/5479996/construct-an-ultra+slow-pinhole-camera-to-create-surreal-photos > > > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > From rwyoung at ieee.org Wed Mar 3 14:11:25 2010 From: rwyoung at ieee.org (Robert Young) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 08:11:25 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BW POP pinhole In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Visit http://www.solargraphy.com/ And specifically, my small contribution: http://www.solargraphy.com/index.php?option=com_sol_search&task=view&id=214&Itemid=23 3 month exposure Rob Young > From: zphoto at montana.net > Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 05:44:23 -0700 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] BW POP pinhole > > Ultra slow pinhole exposures, making BW paper POP (no development): > > > http://lifehacker.com/5479996/construct-an-ultra+slow-pinhole-camera-to-create-surreal-photos > > > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From viapiano at pacbell.net Wed Mar 3 15:55:40 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 07:55:40 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: dichromate stain References: <30B470D1-B2C4-4EFB-A4B1-9F21DEC3215F@montana.net> Message-ID: <000501cabae9$f9899490$c600a8c0@dell4600> Christina... Tell me...are you using the PVA size right off the bat before the first layer? Are you laying down just one coat of PVA or several? Glad to hear you're getting great results! Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christina Anderson" To: "Alt List" Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 2:33 PM Subject: [alt-photo] dichromate stain > Also, for the first time I taught with PVA at a 1+2 dilution on Rives BFK > and nary a problem. I use 1+2 on Artistico, but might use 1:1 on Rives if > I used Rives. Marek, you are a Godsend, thank you for sharing it. > > > Chris > > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From ender100 at aol.com Wed Mar 3 15:49:24 2010 From: ender100 at aol.com (Mark Nelson) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 10:49:24 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BW POP pinhole In-Reply-To: <959BCA41F98848FBA46594530660BD62@altinyildiz.trk> References: <26A6664962FE42B8A8AA981CC21031B6@philbrgrf70d3e> <959BCA41F98848FBA46594530660BD62@altinyildiz.trk> Message-ID: <02CEAB41-402B-4E1D-BE39-A5B8C4AB48A8@aol.com> Loris, you don't like photograps of bulldogs? Mark Nelson www.PrecisionDigitalNegatives.com PDNPRint Forum @ Yahoo Groups www.MarkINelsonPhoto.com sent from my iPhonetypeDeviceThingy On Mar 3, 2010, at 8:02 AM, "Loris Medici" wrote: > I wonder when Philippe will post anything non self-promoting which > is useful > at the same time? (Not that I think self-promotion is a bad thing in > all > circumstances, but when it's the "whole thing" that makes my eyes > roll...) > > Philippe, starting from this very moment you're on my block-list; I > hope > that this will motivate you in contributing to the list in a broader > fashion. > > Byebye... > > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On > Behalf Of > Philippe Berger > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 2:53 PM > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BW POP pinhole > > See new web site on the Carbon Printing Process > > http://www.photographieaucharbon.net > > Philippe > mineurdecharbon at skynet.be > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christina Anderson" > To: "Alt List" > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 1:44 PM > Subject: [alt-photo] BW POP pinhole > > >> Ultra slow pinhole exposures, making BW paper POP (no development): >> >> > http://lifehacker.com/5479996/construct-an-ultra+slow-pinhole-camera-to-crea > te-surreal-photos > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From frangst at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 16:20:21 2010 From: frangst at gmail.com (francis schanberger) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 11:20:21 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BW POP pinhole In-Reply-To: <02CEAB41-402B-4E1D-BE39-A5B8C4AB48A8@aol.com> References: <26A6664962FE42B8A8AA981CC21031B6@philbrgrf70d3e> <959BCA41F98848FBA46594530660BD62@altinyildiz.trk> <02CEAB41-402B-4E1D-BE39-A5B8C4AB48A8@aol.com> Message-ID: <4c6fbba01003030820l66b165baxfb53c9d3547bffb6@mail.gmail.com> Could the long exposure pinholes be developed in dilute hypo like lumen prints? -francis On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Mark Nelson wrote: > Loris, you don't like photograps of bulldogs? > > Mark Nelson > www.PrecisionDigitalNegatives.com > PDNPRint Forum @ Yahoo Groups > www.MarkINelsonPhoto.com > > sent from my iPhonetypeDeviceThingy > > > On Mar 3, 2010, at 8:02 AM, "Loris Medici" wrote: > > I wonder when Philippe will post anything non self-promoting which is >> useful >> at the same time? (Not that I think self-promotion is a bad thing in all >> circumstances, but when it's the "whole thing" that makes my eyes roll...) >> >> Philippe, starting from this very moment you're on my block-list; I hope >> that this will motivate you in contributing to the list in a broader >> fashion. >> >> Byebye... >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf Of >> Philippe Berger >> Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 2:53 PM >> To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BW POP pinhole >> >> See new web site on the Carbon Printing Process >> >> http://www.photographieaucharbon.net >> >> Philippe >> mineurdecharbon at skynet.be >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Christina Anderson" >> To: "Alt List" >> Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 1:44 PM >> Subject: [alt-photo] BW POP pinhole >> >> >> Ultra slow pinhole exposures, making BW paper POP (no development): >>> >>> >>> >> http://lifehacker.com/5479996/construct-an-ultra+slow-pinhole-camera-to-crea >> te-surreal-photos >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > -- francis schanberger www.frangst.com From ender100 at aol.com Wed Mar 3 15:46:07 2010 From: ender100 at aol.com (Mark Nelson) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 10:46:07 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BW POP pinhole In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <049E7AF4-0B2E-4E1A-9B9C-5A7407FB07D5@aol.com> Chris, Thanks so much for clarifying this. All along I had thought that "ultra slow pinhole photographers" referred to a disability. Hehehe Mark Nelson www.PrecisionDigitalNegatives.com PDNPRint Forum @ Yahoo Groups www.MarkINelsonPhoto.com sent from my iPhonetypeDeviceThingy On Mar 3, 2010, at 7:44 AM, Christina Anderson wrote: > Ultra slow pinhole exposures, making BW paper POP (no development): > > > http://lifehacker.com/5479996/construct-an-ultra+slow-pinhole-camera-to-create-surreal-photos > > > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From rwybeaker at hotmail.com Wed Mar 3 16:59:01 2010 From: rwybeaker at hotmail.com (Robert Young) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 10:59:01 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BW POP pinhole In-Reply-To: <4c6fbba01003030820l66b165baxfb53c9d3547bffb6@mail.gmail.com> References: , <26A6664962FE42B8A8AA981CC21031B6@philbrgrf70d3e>, <959BCA41F98848FBA46594530660BD62@altinyildiz.trk>, <02CEAB41-402B-4E1D-BE39-A5B8C4AB48A8@aol.com>, <4c6fbba01003030820l66b165baxfb53c9d3547bffb6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: They are already "developed". However unless they are fixed, they will continue to darken over time if exposed to additional light. The fixed tends to cause them to fade back a stop or two. YMMV. Rob > Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 11:20:21 -0500 > From: frangst at gmail.com > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BW POP pinhole > > Could the long exposure pinholes be developed in dilute hypo like lumen > prints? > > -francis > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Mark Nelson wrote: > > > Loris, you don't like photograps of bulldogs? > > > > Mark Nelson > > www.PrecisionDigitalNegatives.com > > PDNPRint Forum @ Yahoo Groups > > www.MarkINelsonPhoto.com > > > > sent from my iPhonetypeDeviceThingy > > > > > > On Mar 3, 2010, at 8:02 AM, "Loris Medici" wrote: > > > > I wonder when Philippe will post anything non self-promoting which is > >> useful > >> at the same time? (Not that I think self-promotion is a bad thing in all > >> circumstances, but when it's the "whole thing" that makes my eyes roll...) > >> > >> Philippe, starting from this very moment you're on my block-list; I hope > >> that this will motivate you in contributing to the list in a broader > >> fashion. > >> > >> Byebye... > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf Of > >> Philippe Berger > >> Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 2:53 PM > >> To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BW POP pinhole > >> > >> See new web site on the Carbon Printing Process > >> > >> http://www.photographieaucharbon.net > >> > >> Philippe > >> mineurdecharbon at skynet.be > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Christina Anderson" > >> To: "Alt List" > >> Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 1:44 PM > >> Subject: [alt-photo] BW POP pinhole > >> > >> > >> Ultra slow pinhole exposures, making BW paper POP (no development): > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> http://lifehacker.com/5479996/construct-an-ultra+slow-pinhole-camera-to-crea > >> te-surreal-photos > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > > > > -- > francis schanberger > > www.frangst.com > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From walter23 at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 17:48:52 2010 From: walter23 at gmail.com (walter) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 09:48:52 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alt-photo-process-list Digest, Vol 81, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77502711003030948r59a4f444v455b0393259f458d@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I'm new to the list. I actually came here looking for a solution to the same problem, and I think I also used a bit too much gum (more inadvertently though; my dichromate working methods have been a bit inconsistent since I mix up small batches for single printing sessions). Because of the time involved I haven't tried to print again since then (last week) but I'm glad to see you've found that to be a culprit. It sounds like exactly the same scenario I was facing. Now, I'm going to mix up a bottle of saturated K-dichromate to keep that variable constant. Have any of you used plastic bottles? I'm having trouble finding brown glass bottles but the drug store gave me a couple of plastic ones used for dispensing cough syrup / liquid medication. Would any of you seasoned gum printers recommend skipping that and ordering some glass ones? I know where to get them but I'm sort of intensely trying to work out the printing methods right now and I don't want to wait the week or two for a delivery. -Walter On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 4:00 AM, wrote: > >> I was attempting to produce very saturated layers and in that attempt, I > increased the gum concentration in order to accommodate (without staining), > the amount of pigment that was required. Once I reduced the gum and pigment > concentration, the adhesion was improved and the top layer behaved. < > > Happy for you! > >> I still have no understanding as to why there were no problems with these > thick layers when laying down the cyan layer first. < > > Could be something about the structural/physical properties of the specific > pigments that you were using or something else, who knows? Don't dig too > much, go for the image! ;) From mail at loris.medici.name Wed Mar 3 18:03:06 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 20:03:06 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alt-photo-process-list Digest, Vol 81, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: <77502711003030948r59a4f444v455b0393259f458d@mail.gmail.com> References: <77502711003030948r59a4f444v455b0393259f458d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <725fa8581003031003h77a6a6kcff0a3626514cf73@mail.gmail.com> Welcome Walter, Plastic bottles are OK. Apart amber bottles, I have also used plastic bottles; two types 1.PET (resin symbol 1) and 2.PP (resin symbol 5) w/o any adverse effects. Just keep them out of UV light. (Especially if they're transparent!) Regards, Loris. 2010/3/3 walter : > Hi, I'm new to the list. > ... > Now, I'm going to mix up a bottle of saturated K-dichromate to keep > that variable constant. ?Have any of you used plastic bottles? ?I'm > having trouble finding brown glass bottles but the drug store gave me > a couple of plastic ones used for dispensing cough syrup / liquid > medication. ?Would any of you seasoned gum printers recommend skipping > that and ordering some glass ones? ?I know where to get them but I'm > sort of intensely trying to work out the printing methods right now > and I don't want to wait the week or two for a delivery. From kthayer at pacifier.com Wed Mar 3 18:23:59 2010 From: kthayer at pacifier.com (Katharine Thayer) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 10:23:59 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Keeping dichromate in plastic botle In-Reply-To: <77502711003030948r59a4f444v455b0393259f458d@mail.gmail.com> References: <77502711003030948r59a4f444v455b0393259f458d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Welcome, Walter. I have always kept my dichromate solution in a plastic bottle, with no discernible harm. I've used the brown plastic bottles I bought at a photo supply store a long time ago. I don't know if it's necessary to protect the dichromate from light; dichromate by itself without something to react with shouldn't be activated by light, but I've just always used those bottles. . Glass isn't necessary, for sure. Katharine On Mar 3, 2010, at 9:48 AM, walter wrote: > Hi, I'm new to the list. I actually came here looking for a solution > to the same problem, and I think I also used a bit too much gum (more > inadvertently though; my dichromate working methods have been a bit > inconsistent since I mix up small batches for single printing > sessions). Because of the time involved I haven't tried to print > again since then (last week) but I'm glad to see you've found that to > be a culprit. It sounds like exactly the same scenario I was facing. > > Now, I'm going to mix up a bottle of saturated K-dichromate to keep > that variable constant. Have any of you used plastic bottles? I'm > having trouble finding brown glass bottles but the drug store gave me > a couple of plastic ones used for dispensing cough syrup / liquid > medication. Would any of you seasoned gum printers recommend skipping > that and ordering some glass ones? I know where to get them but I'm > sort of intensely trying to work out the printing methods right now > and I don't want to wait the week or two for a delivery. > > -Walter > > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 4:00 AM, > wrote: > > >> >> >>> I was attempting to produce very saturated layers and in that >>> attempt, I >>> >> increased the gum concentration in order to accommodate (without >> staining), >> the amount of pigment that was required. Once I reduced the gum >> and pigment >> concentration, the adhesion was improved and the top layer behaved. < >> >> Happy for you! >> >> >>> I still have no understanding as to why there were no problems >>> with these >>> >> thick layers when laying down the cyan layer first. < >> >> Could be something about the structural/physical properties of the >> specific >> pigments that you were using or something else, who knows? Don't >> dig too >> much, go for the image! ;) >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > From zphoto at montana.net Wed Mar 3 19:58:57 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (zphoto at montana.net) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 12:58:57 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alt-photo-process-list Digest, Vol 81, Issue 2 Message-ID: <4b8ebf81.7f8.e04.3d3e@montana.net> Loris, Unless there is the presence of an organic, it doesn't matter. But drop a modicum of gum on your dichromate (e.g. get it accidentally on the dichromate eyedropper) and all bets are off. chris On Wednesday 03/03/2010 at 11:03 am, Loris Medici wrote: > Welcome Walter, > > Plastic bottles are OK. Apart amber bottles, I have also used plastic > bottles; two types 1.PET (resin symbol 1) and 2.PP (resin symbol 5) > w/o any adverse effects. Just keep them out of UV light. (Especially > if they're transparent!) > > Regards, > Loris. > > > 2010/3/3 walter : >> >> Hi, I'm new to the list. >> ... >> Now, I'm going to mix up a bottle of saturated K-dichromate to keep >> that variable constant. Have any of you used plastic bottles? I'm >> having trouble finding brown glass bottles but the drug store gave me >> a couple of plastic ones used for dispensing cough syrup / liquid >> medication. Would any of you seasoned gum printers recommend skipping >> that and ordering some glass ones? I know where to get them but I'm >> sort of intensely trying to work out the printing methods right now >> and I don't want to wait the week or two for a delivery. > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Wed Mar 3 20:10:54 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 22:10:54 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alt-photo-process-list Digest, Vol 81, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: <4b8ebf81.7f8.e04.3d3e@montana.net> References: <4b8ebf81.7f8.e04.3d3e@montana.net> Message-ID: <725fa8581003031210o61078732h9533eec9caa2d0a@mail.gmail.com> Contamination is always possible, especially with a "relatively messy" process like gum. Therefore I think it's best to be prudent :) Regards, Loris. 2010/3/3 : > Loris, > Unless there is the presence of an organic, it doesn't matter. ?But drop a > modicum of gum on your dichromate (e.g. get it accidentally on the > dichromate eyedropper) and all bets are off. > chris > > > > On Wednesday 03/03/2010 at 11:03 am, Loris Medici ? wrote: >> >> Welcome Walter, >> >> Plastic bottles are OK. Apart amber bottles, I have also used plastic >> bottles; two types 1.PET (resin symbol 1) and 2.PP (resin symbol 5) >> w/o any adverse effects. Just keep them out of UV light. (Especially >> if they're transparent!) >> >> Regards, >> Loris. From john at johnbrewerphotography.com Wed Mar 3 20:28:29 2010 From: john at johnbrewerphotography.com (John Brewer) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 20:28:29 -0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alt-photo-process-list Digest, Vol 81, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: <725fa8581003031003h77a6a6kcff0a3626514cf73@mail.gmail.com> References: <77502711003030948r59a4f444v455b0393259f458d@mail.gmail.com> <725fa8581003031003h77a6a6kcff0a3626514cf73@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <01d701cabb10$16170a40$42451ec0$@com> I keep mine in a clear plastic bottle. It's not light sensitive, I've kept mine this way since 2003, (according to the label I wrote on the bottle). J -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Loris Medici Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 6:03 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alt-photo-process-list Digest, Vol 81, Issue 2 Welcome Walter, Plastic bottles are OK. Apart amber bottles, I have also used plastic bottles; two types 1.PET (resin symbol 1) and 2.PP (resin symbol 5) w/o any adverse effects. Just keep them out of UV light. (Especially if they're transparent!) Regards, Loris. 2010/3/3 walter : > Hi, I'm new to the list. > ... > Now, I'm going to mix up a bottle of saturated K-dichromate to keep > that variable constant. Have any of you used plastic bottles? I'm > having trouble finding brown glass bottles but the drug store gave me > a couple of plastic ones used for dispensing cough syrup / liquid > medication. Would any of you seasoned gum printers recommend skipping > that and ordering some glass ones? I know where to get them but I'm > sort of intensely trying to work out the printing methods right now > and I don't want to wait the week or two for a delivery. _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.730 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2714 - Release Date: 03/02/10 19:34:00 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.730 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2714 - Release Date: 03/02/10 19:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.730 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2719 - Release Date: 03/02/10 19:34:00 From mineurdecharbon at skynet.be Wed Mar 3 20:46:31 2010 From: mineurdecharbon at skynet.be (Philippe Berger) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 21:46:31 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alt-photo-process-list Digest, Vol 81, Issue 2 References: <4b8ebf81.7f8.e04.3d3e@montana.net> <725fa8581003031210o61078732h9533eec9caa2d0a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0FFDB76F55654629A83251C876769023@philbrgrf70d3e> Temperature of turkey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loris Medici" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 9:10 PM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alt-photo-process-list Digest, Vol 81, Issue 2 > Contamination is always possible, especially with a "relatively messy" > process like gum. Therefore I think it's best to be prudent :) > > Regards, > Loris. > > > 2010/3/3 : >> Loris, >> Unless there is the presence of an organic, it doesn't matter. But drop a >> modicum of gum on your dichromate (e.g. get it accidentally on the >> dichromate eyedropper) and all bets are off. >> chris >> >> >> >> On Wednesday 03/03/2010 at 11:03 am, Loris Medici wrote: >>> >>> Welcome Walter, >>> >>> Plastic bottles are OK. Apart amber bottles, I have also used plastic >>> bottles; two types 1.PET (resin symbol 1) and 2.PP (resin symbol 5) >>> w/o any adverse effects. Just keep them out of UV light. (Especially >>> if they're transparent!) >>> >>> Regards, >>> Loris. > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca Thu Mar 4 03:16:37 2010 From: pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca (pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 22:16:37 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BW POP pinhole In-Reply-To: References: <26A6664962FE42B8A8AA981CC21031B6@philbrgrf70d3e> <959BCA41F98848FBA46594530660BD62@altinyildiz.trk> <02CEAB41-402B-4E1D-BE39-A5B8C4AB48A8@aol.com> <4c6fbba01003030820l66b165baxfb53c9d3547bffb6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Francis, I did fix a solargraph print and it did loose intensity. I did this because I wanted to do an image stack on it to get rid of artifacts being created by my Epson consumer scanner. The Epson couldn't handle the weak image with any degree of depth, and scanning lines were visible. I wanted to get rid of that stuff so I did a stack -something astro-photographers are familiar with. I also made a number of attempts to intensify the image, but was mostly unsuccessful with conventional silver darkroom chemicals. You can see a solargraph print I made about a year ago. Go to: http://www.inventionsthatwork.com/alternativephotography.htm The capture time was Dec 08- thru June 09 Peter Friedrichsen At 11:59 AM 03/03/2010, Robert Young wrote: >They are already "developed". However unless they are fixed, they >will continue to darken over time if exposed to additional light. > >The fixed tends to cause them to fade back a stop or two. YMMV. > >Rob > > > > > Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 11:20:21 -0500 > > From: frangst at gmail.com > > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BW POP pinhole > > > > Could the long exposure pinholes be developed in dilute hypo like lumen > > prints? > > > > -francis > > > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Mark Nelson wrote: > > > > > Loris, you don't like photograps of bulldogs? > > > > > > Mark Nelson > > > www.PrecisionDigitalNegatives.com > > > PDNPRint Forum @ Yahoo Groups > > > www.MarkINelsonPhoto.com > > > > > > sent from my iPhonetypeDeviceThingy > > > > > > > > > On Mar 3, 2010, at 8:02 AM, "Loris Medici" > wrote: > > > > > > I wonder when Philippe will post anything non self-promoting which is > > >> useful > > >> at the same time? (Not that I think self-promotion is a bad thing in all > > >> circumstances, but when it's the "whole thing" that makes my > eyes roll...) > > >> > > >> Philippe, starting from this very moment you're on my block-list; I hope > > >> that this will motivate you in contributing to the list in a broader > > >> fashion. > > >> > > >> Byebye... > > >> > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf Of > > >> Philippe Berger > > >> Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 2:53 PM > > >> To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > > >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BW POP pinhole > > >> > > >> See new web site on the Carbon Printing Process > > >> > > >> http://www.photographieaucharbon.net > > >> > > >> Philippe > > >> mineurdecharbon at skynet.be > > >> > > >> > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > > >> From: "Christina Anderson" > > >> To: "Alt List" > > >> Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 1:44 PM > > >> Subject: [alt-photo] BW POP pinhole > > >> > > >> > > >> Ultra slow pinhole exposures, making BW paper POP (no development): > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > http://lifehacker.com/5479996/construct-an-ultra+slow-pinhole-camera-to-crea > > >> te-surreal-photos > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > francis schanberger > > > > www.frangst.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > >_______________________________________________ >Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From mustafaumutsarac at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 03:49:27 2010 From: mustafaumutsarac at gmail.com (Mustafa Umut Sarac) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 05:49:27 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BW POP pinhole In-Reply-To: References: <26A6664962FE42B8A8AA981CC21031B6@philbrgrf70d3e> <959BCA41F98848FBA46594530660BD62@altinyildiz.trk> <02CEAB41-402B-4E1D-BE39-A5B8C4AB48A8@aol.com> <4c6fbba01003030820l66b165baxfb53c9d3547bffb6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I want to do this art. Do I need only fotographic paper and a pinhole camera ? Can I use color paper ? Do I need to develop the result or did I understand correctly , Do I not need to develop the paper ? I read somewhere saying no need to development ! Is it correct , hard to believe ! What will happen the paper sees the daylight ? Umut From jseigel at panix.com Thu Mar 4 04:52:51 2010 From: jseigel at panix.com (Judy Seigel) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 23:52:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alt-photo-process-list Digest, Vol 81, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: <77502711003030948r59a4f444v455b0393259f458d@mail.gmail.com> References: <77502711003030948r59a4f444v455b0393259f458d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Mar 2010, walter wrote: > Now, I'm going to mix up a bottle of saturated K-dichromate to keep > that variable constant. Have any of you used plastic bottles? I'm > having trouble finding brown glass bottles but the drug store gave me > a couple of plastic ones used for dispensing cough syrup / liquid > medication. Would any of you seasoned gum printers recommend skipping > that and ordering some glass ones? I know where to get them but I'm > sort of intensely trying to work out the printing methods right now > and I don't want to wait the week or two for a delivery. Theoretically, I suppose a plastic bottle could have imbibed some of something it held previously.... even a new plastic bottle could (perhaps??) absorb chemicals from its contents, or if not, maybe the receptivity would change as the bottle aged. Which may all be a rationalization of my somehow feeling safer with glass: I figure there are so many variables I can't control (whatsisname used to claim what color his shirt was that day... or like that ... was a variable), but I anyway mention in passing that clear glass bottles are everywhere and easily opacified with black paper or foil, or your cut up raincoat or whatever can be wrapped around them. Years ago I used to get brown glass bottles at good prices from Ginsberg Scientific... tho I realize many of those great mail order sources are gone with the snows of yesteryear.... My favorite from them was brown glass DROPPER bottles in all sizes. (Small amounts of solution keep better in a smaller container... less air exposure per cell presumably. True, I haven't tested that assumption, but still, less evaporation.) Anyway, for small quantities, droppers are easiest, and no washing up or spills. Judy From jseigel at panix.com Thu Mar 4 05:19:55 2010 From: jseigel at panix.com (Judy Seigel) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 00:19:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BW POP pinhole In-Reply-To: <959BCA41F98848FBA46594530660BD62@altinyildiz.trk> References: <26A6664962FE42B8A8AA981CC21031B6@philbrgrf70d3e> <959BCA41F98848FBA46594530660BD62@altinyildiz.trk> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Mar 2010, Loris Medici wrote: > I wonder when Philippe will post anything non self-promoting which is useful > at the same time? (Not that I think self-promotion is a bad thing in all > circumstances, but when it's the "whole thing" that makes my eyes roll...) > > Philippe, starting from this very moment you're on my block-list; I hope > that this will motivate you in contributing to the list in a broader > fashion. > > Byebye... I realize I lack many social graces and fail to detect sunami's (let alone nuances) of meaning on the list... still, I am not offended by the announcement of a website, and find Loris's furious reaction opaque. (Perhaps there are personal issues?). But every reader and writer to the list is involved in one form or another of self-promotion (even of one's personal opinion -- heh heh-- or promotion of learning)....Brief citation of a website is not on its face a grave offense. Another thing I'm missing is a dictionary that spells sunami, tho it could be I didn't find it because I'm spelling it wrong... Sorry. J. > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf Of > Philippe Berger > Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 2:53 PM > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BW POP pinhole > > See new web site on the Carbon Printing Process > > http://www.photographieaucharbon.net > > Philippe > mineurdecharbon at skynet.be > From rwybeaker at hotmail.com Thu Mar 4 05:53:36 2010 From: rwybeaker at hotmail.com (Robert Young) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 23:53:36 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BW POP pinhole In-Reply-To: References: , <26A6664962FE42B8A8AA981CC21031B6@philbrgrf70d3e>, <959BCA41F98848FBA46594530660BD62@altinyildiz.trk>, <02CEAB41-402B-4E1D-BE39-A5B8C4AB48A8@aol.com>, <4c6fbba01003030820l66b165baxfb53c9d3547bffb6@mail.gmail.com>, , , Message-ID: B&W paper (any old RC paper is a good choice, I used some old Ilford MG III) and a pin hole camera. One camera was made from a pint paint can I bought at the hardware store. It was an empty, clean can with a dark gray interior. The only two things I did to it were to cut a 1/2" diameter hole centered on one side and securely tape from the inside a little brass shim with my pin hole. The photo paper was cut to 4" x 10" and wrapped nearly all the way around inside the can. I strapped the can, upside down so that water would not sit on the lid, to a post on my back-yard deck. Uncovered the pinhole and left it alone for 3 months, December to March. The can was quite rusty on the outside after 3 months of snow and rain. My second use of the can failed as it rusted through. If I was to make a new one I would paint the outside of the can with several coats of a good, enamel paint to protect the tin. Removed the paper and simply scanned the image. That "negative" now lives in a black plastic bag in a file cabinet. DO NOT USE A DEVELOPER. The paper will go 100% black. If you do not fix the negative (no stop bath needed) it will fade back one or two stops. You can experiment with toners to try and intensify the negative but I think in the end you will just loose the density. You can probably get an exposure in less then 3 months, perhaps even a week if your pinhole is a little on the large size for the focal length of the camera. Rob > Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 05:49:27 +0200 > From: mustafaumutsarac at gmail.com > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BW POP pinhole > > I want to do this art. Do I need only fotographic paper and a pinhole camera > ? Can I use color paper ? Do I need to develop the result or did I > understand correctly , Do I not need to develop the paper ? > I read somewhere saying no need to development ! Is it correct , hard to > believe ! > What will happen the paper sees the daylight ? > > Umut > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From rwybeaker at hotmail.com Thu Mar 4 05:55:07 2010 From: rwybeaker at hotmail.com (Robert Young) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 23:55:07 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BW POP pinhole In-Reply-To: References: , <26A6664962FE42B8A8AA981CC21031B6@philbrgrf70d3e>, <959BCA41F98848FBA46594530660BD62@altinyildiz.trk>, Message-ID: > > Another thing I'm missing is a dictionary that spells sunami, tho it > could be I didn't find it because I'm spelling it wrong... Sorry. > > J. Tsunami :) Rob From marcomilazzo at elp.rr.com Thu Mar 4 12:21:57 2010 From: marcomilazzo at elp.rr.com (Marco Milazzo) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 05:21:57 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Truth / Beauty Exhibit now in San Antonio, Texas References: Message-ID: <9B552D8D9D1E4D718CCC2D290F5E763A@marco94a29799a> Excuse me if this has been mentioned already, but if so, I haven't seen it. The photography exhibit, "Truth / Beauty -- Pictorialism and the Photograph as Art," which was in Vancouver is now at the McNay Art Museum in San Antonio, Texas. Here is a link: http://www.mcnayart.org/#/home/ Marco Milazzo From henry.rattle at ntlworld.com Thu Mar 4 12:45:48 2010 From: henry.rattle at ntlworld.com (Henry Rattle) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 12:45:48 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] applying PVA size In-Reply-To: <9B552D8D9D1E4D718CCC2D290F5E763A@marco94a29799a> Message-ID: I've just acquired some Gamblin PVA size for my gum printing (thank you John B for alerting us to Stuart R Stevenson as UK supplier - as you say, he is most helpful). Now quite excited at the possibility of preparing a sheet or two of paper as I go, rather than batch-processing with hot gelatine solutions, formalin etc. I'm a bit nervous of using my precious Richeson brush for PVA. Have those of you who are using PVA size for gum any advice re suitable brushes and dilutions? Many thanks Henry From mineurdecharbon at skynet.be Thu Mar 4 12:47:37 2010 From: mineurdecharbon at skynet.be (Philippe Berger) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 13:47:37 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size References: Message-ID: Hi, For Belgian photograph, i am 500 gr of Mowiol 8.88 to sell at my home Contact me Philippe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Henry Rattle" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 1:45 PM Subject: [alt-photo] applying PVA size > I've just acquired some Gamblin PVA size for my gum printing (thank you > John > B for alerting us to Stuart R Stevenson as UK supplier - as you say, he is > most helpful). Now quite excited at the possibility of preparing a sheet > or > two of paper as I go, rather than batch-processing with hot gelatine > solutions, formalin etc. > > I'm a bit nervous of using my precious Richeson brush for PVA. Have those > of > you who are using PVA size for gum any advice re suitable brushes and > dilutions? > > Many thanks > > Henry > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 4914 (20100304) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > From john at johnbrewerphotography.com Thu Mar 4 12:56:54 2010 From: john at johnbrewerphotography.com (John Brewer) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 12:56:54 -0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size In-Reply-To: References: <9B552D8D9D1E4D718CCC2D290F5E763A@marco94a29799a> Message-ID: <027901cabb9a$2a9fe4c0$7fdfae40$@com> Hi Henry My initial tests with FAEW HP is to dilute 1:1 with water and apply with a foam brush one direction then at 90 degrees repeating this a few times. I think 1:1 is overkill so I'm going to try 1:2, also it's quite sheeny at 1:1. I've found one coat to be sufficient. J. -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Henry Rattle Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 12:46 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] applying PVA size I've just acquired some Gamblin PVA size for my gum printing (thank you John B for alerting us to Stuart R Stevenson as UK supplier - as you say, he is most helpful). Now quite excited at the possibility of preparing a sheet or two of paper as I go, rather than batch-processing with hot gelatine solutions, formalin etc. I'm a bit nervous of using my precious Richeson brush for PVA. Have those of you who are using PVA size for gum any advice re suitable brushes and dilutions? Many thanks Henry _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2714 - Release Date: 03/03/10 19:34:00 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2714 - Release Date: 03/03/10 19:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2721 - Release Date: 03/03/10 19:34:00 From colin at colinflanarygraham.com Thu Mar 4 13:14:58 2010 From: colin at colinflanarygraham.com (colin at colinflanarygraham.com) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 08:14:58 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alt-photo-process-list Digest, Vol 81, Issue 2 Message-ID: <39185.1267708498@colinflanarygraham.com> Or you could just get new PET plastic amber bottles for 68 cent each- http://www.specialtybottle.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=370. The glass ones are only 86 cents each- http://www.specialtybottle.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=22. On Wed Mar 3 20:52 , Judy Seigel sent: >Theoretically, I suppose a plastic bottle could have imbibed some of >something it held previously.... even a new plastic bottle could >(perhaps??) absorb chemicals from its contents, or if not, maybe the >receptivity would change as the bottle aged. Which may all be a >rationalization of my somehow feeling safer with glass: I figure there >are so many variables I can't control (whatsisname used to claim what >color his shirt was that day... or like that ... was a variable), but I >anyway mention in passing that clear glass bottles are everywhere and >easily opacified with black paper or foil, or your cut up raincoat or >whatever can be wrapped around them. > >Years ago I used to get brown glass bottles at good prices from Ginsberg >Scientific... tho I realize many of those great mail order sources are >gone with the snows of yesteryear.... My favorite from them was brown >glass DROPPER bottles in all sizes. (Small amounts of solution keep >better in a smaller container... less air exposure per cell presumably. >True, I haven't tested that assumption, but still, less evaporation.) >Anyway, for small quantities, droppers are easiest, and no washing up >or spills. > >Judy >_______________________________________________ >Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Thu Mar 4 14:02:26 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 07:02:26 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] glass bottles In-Reply-To: <39185.1267708498@colinflanarygraham.com> References: <39185.1267708498@colinflanarygraham.com> Message-ID: <927706C1-1A81-4B7C-B235-3BC9D4EAEEDE@montana.net> I found the cheapest place for brown glass bottles is specialtybottle.com I get the 120ml glass bottles there with eyedroppers. 68 cents each if you buy a case (128). Otherwise all of 91 cents. http://www.specialtybottle.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=20 Then I do a quickneasy measure method with dichromate at 2 tsp per bottle. This approximates about a 15%. Actually closer to 12%. With HMI lights it was 1 tsp to 100ml. How fun last night to arrive at the SPE hotel and find two listees having a drink, Hans Klemmer and Mark Nelson. Stayed up a wee bit too late with them... Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 4 15:02:48 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 10:02:48 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7EE30FFD-06FF-4A84-8891-4DC5AEC4DC0E@bellsouth.net> Henry, I use just a regular old cheap brush for coating the PVA. You can wash it as soon as you use it, but I tend to use one or two brushes, different sizes, that I dedicate to PVA use-- and not use them for anything else. Even though it's easily washed out, I find it does change the softness of the brush. And I definitely wouldn't use a brush as expensive as the Richeson for this. I use it straight, no dilution at all, but it is a very thin coat I put down. Seems to work really well for me-- no problems at all. Others dilute. That may also depend on the paper. I tend to use only BFK Rives. I think you'll really like it. And I always feel like I need to thank Jim Larimer for being the first here to talk about using PVA for gum printing. It's really been so much easier and more convenient to use, not to mention offering better results. :) Diana On Mar 4, 2010, at 7:45 AM, Henry Rattle wrote: > I've just acquired some Gamblin PVA size for my gum printing (thank > you John > B for alerting us to Stuart R Stevenson as UK supplier - as you say, > he is > most helpful). Now quite excited at the possibility of preparing a > sheet or > two of paper as I go, rather than batch-processing with hot gelatine > solutions, formalin etc. > > I'm a bit nervous of using my precious Richeson brush for PVA. Have > those of > you who are using PVA size for gum any advice re suitable brushes and > dilutions? > > Many thanks > > Henry > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From cacadanebay at pacbell.net Thu Mar 4 15:32:15 2010 From: cacadanebay at pacbell.net (dan jones) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 07:32:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size In-Reply-To: <7EE30FFD-06FF-4A84-8891-4DC5AEC4DC0E@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <161544.62911.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> All Sorry to come late into this thread...but where do you get PVA in the U.S.? Brand name, retailer? Thanks --- On Thu, 3/4/10, Diana Bloomfield wrote: From: Diana Bloomfield Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Date: Thursday, March 4, 2010, 7:02 AM Henry, I use just a regular old cheap brush for coating the PVA.? You can wash it as soon as you use it, but? I tend to use one or two brushes, different sizes, that I dedicate to PVA use-- and not use them for anything else.? Even though it's easily washed out, I find it does change the softness of the brush.? And I definitely wouldn't use a brush as expensive as the Richeson for this. I use it straight, no dilution at all, but it is a very thin coat I put down. Seems to work really well for me-- no problems at all.? Others dilute.? That may also depend on the paper.? I tend to use only BFK Rives. I think you'll really like it.? And I always feel like I need to thank Jim Larimer for being the first here to talk about using PVA for gum printing.? It's really been so much easier and more convenient to use, not to mention offering better results. :) Diana On Mar 4, 2010, at 7:45 AM, Henry Rattle wrote: > I've just acquired some Gamblin PVA size for my gum printing (thank you John > B for alerting us to Stuart R Stevenson as UK supplier - as you say, he is > most helpful). Now quite excited at the possibility of preparing a sheet or > two of paper as I go, rather than batch-processing with hot gelatine > solutions, formalin etc. > > I'm a bit nervous of using my precious Richeson brush for PVA. Have those of > you who are using PVA size for gum any advice re suitable brushes and > dilutions? > > Many thanks > > Henry > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 4 15:39:55 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 10:39:55 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size In-Reply-To: <161544.62911.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <161544.62911.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <749F52BC-4C92-4C80-9A50-67A15B21AA3A@bellsouth.net> Dan, I've used only the Gamblin PVA, and most art stores sell it. We have a Jerry's Artarama here, but you could just order it online. I think Jerry's is the lowest price I've seen, but even my small local art store here sells it, too, which is more convenient, but not as inexpensive. Wherever you are, check out your local art supply store, or just order it online. Diana On Mar 4, 2010, at 10:32 AM, dan jones wrote: > All > Sorry to come late into this thread...but where do you get PVA in > the U.S.? Brand name, retailer? > Thanks > > --- On Thu, 3/4/10, Diana Bloomfield > wrote: > > From: Diana Bloomfield > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" > > Date: Thursday, March 4, 2010, 7:02 AM > > Henry, > > I use just a regular old cheap brush for coating the PVA. You can > wash it as soon as you use it, but I tend to use one or two > brushes, different sizes, that I dedicate to PVA use-- and not use > them for anything else. Even though it's easily washed out, I find > it does change the softness of the brush. And I definitely wouldn't > use a brush as expensive as the Richeson for this. > > I use it straight, no dilution at all, but it is a very thin coat I > put down. Seems to work really well for me-- no problems at all. > Others dilute. That may also depend on the paper. I tend to use > only BFK Rives. > > I think you'll really like it. And I always feel like I need to > thank Jim Larimer for being the first here to talk about using PVA > for gum printing. It's really been so much easier and more > convenient to use, not to mention offering better results. :) > > Diana > > > On Mar 4, 2010, at 7:45 AM, Henry Rattle wrote: > >> I've just acquired some Gamblin PVA size for my gum printing (thank >> you John >> B for alerting us to Stuart R Stevenson as UK supplier - as you >> say, he is >> most helpful). Now quite excited at the possibility of preparing a >> sheet or >> two of paper as I go, rather than batch-processing with hot gelatine >> solutions, formalin etc. >> >> I'm a bit nervous of using my precious Richeson brush for PVA. Have >> those of >> you who are using PVA size for gum any advice re suitable brushes and >> dilutions? >> >> Many thanks >> >> Henry >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From jeremydmoore at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 16:03:34 2010 From: jeremydmoore at gmail.com (Jeremy Moore) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 10:03:34 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size In-Reply-To: <749F52BC-4C92-4C80-9A50-67A15B21AA3A@bellsouth.net> References: <161544.62911.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <749F52BC-4C92-4C80-9A50-67A15B21AA3A@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <66575de71003040803l482ec665ocfcf68cb286def6e@mail.gmail.com> Dan, If you're in a college town check out the art store the students frequent. They sell the 32oz Gamblin PVA Size at the unaffiliated school art store here for $19.99, which is cheaper than I have been able to find it online--I believe Jerry's is right over $20 (plus shipping, though I guess I have tax to deal with). One of the local profs does use this stuff in his classes, though, so that may be the reason why we seem to have it in abundance. -Jeremy- On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Diana Bloomfield wrote: > Dan, > > I've used only the Gamblin PVA, and most art stores sell it. We have a > Jerry's Artarama here, but you could just order it online. I think Jerry's > is the lowest price I've seen, but even my small local art store here sells > it, too, which is more convenient, but not as inexpensive. Wherever you > are, check out your local art supply store, or just order it online. > > Diana > > From henk.thijs at hetnet.nl Thu Mar 4 16:23:02 2010 From: henk.thijs at hetnet.nl (henk thijs) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 17:23:02 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] PVA for SIZE & GUM ? In-Reply-To: <66575de71003040803l482ec665ocfcf68cb286def6e@mail.gmail.com> References: <161544.62911.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <749F52BC-4C92-4C80-9A50-67A15B21AA3A@bellsouth.net> <66575de71003040803l482ec665ocfcf68cb286def6e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear List, Made curious about the PVA discussion (I remember threads in 2007 a.o. Katharine and David) about sizing i.s.o. gelatine and glyoxal/formaldehyde. But some years ago i mentioned the belgian gummist Jean Janssis ( very impressive gumprints of about 80 to 100 cm), he told me he used MOWIOL (PVA 8-88) from Kremer Pigmente not for sizing but in stead of gum arabic. He gave me some data, i made some tests, and yes , it works; it was a bit messy, and i preferred to work with gum arabic. My question is : can we use this PVA stuff for sizing and gum-dichromate ? regards, Henk ------------------------------------ www.thijs-foto.com ------------------------------------ On 4 mrt 2010, at 17:03, Jeremy Moore wrote: > Dan, > > If you're in a college town check out the art store the students frequent. > They sell the 32oz Gamblin PVA Size at the unaffiliated school art store > here for $19.99, which is cheaper than I have been able to find it online--I > believe Jerry's is right over $20 (plus shipping, though I guess I have tax > to deal with). One of the local profs does use this stuff in his classes, > though, so that may be the reason why we seem to have it in abundance. > > -Jeremy- > > On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Diana Bloomfield > wrote: > >> Dan, >> >> I've used only the Gamblin PVA, and most art stores sell it. We have a >> Jerry's Artarama here, but you could just order it online. I think Jerry's >> is the lowest price I've seen, but even my small local art store here sells >> it, too, which is more convenient, but not as inexpensive. Wherever you >> are, check out your local art supply store, or just order it online. >> >> Diana >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From viapiano at pacbell.net Thu Mar 4 16:56:11 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 08:56:11 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ? References: <161544.62911.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com><749F52BC-4C92-4C80-9A50-67A15B21AA3A@bellsouth.net><66575de71003040803l482ec665ocfcf68cb286def6e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000f01cabbbb$98988010$c600a8c0@dell4600> Henk... There's always been some confusion over this on this particular list, since some substances known as PVA (glues, etc) have been used by experimenters to act as the colloid, as gum arabic serves in the process. However, the PVA size that we have been adopting is a different animal. Gamblin is the only brand I've seen and the only one I've used. It is very liquid-y, much like the consistency of water or milk. It is sold mainly as a size in the preparation of linen and canvas for subsequent oil painting. Jim Larimer and Steve Dowell first mentioned this product and I started working with it, since I was looking for something that didn't involve formaldehyde, glut or glyoxal. I would not try using this product as a gum arabic substitute. I have a bottle of glue here labeled "PVA adhesive" for bookbinding and such, but the product we are talking about is called "PVA size", two totally different things for our purposes and intents. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "henk thijs" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 8:23 AM Subject: [alt-photo] PVA for SIZE & GUM ? > Dear List, > Made curious about the PVA discussion (I remember threads in 2007 a.o. > Katharine and David) about sizing i.s.o. gelatine and > glyoxal/formaldehyde. > But some years ago i mentioned the belgian gummist Jean Janssis ( very > impressive gumprints of about 80 to 100 cm), he told me he used MOWIOL > (PVA 8-88) from Kremer Pigmente not for sizing but in stead of gum > arabic. > He gave me some data, i made some tests, and yes , it works; it was a bit > messy, and i preferred to work with gum arabic. > My question is : can we use this PVA stuff for sizing and gum-dichromate ? > regards, > Henk > > > > ------------------------------------ > www.thijs-foto.com > ------------------------------------ > > On 4 mrt 2010, at 17:03, Jeremy Moore wrote: > >> Dan, >> >> If you're in a college town check out the art store the students >> frequent. >> They sell the 32oz Gamblin PVA Size at the unaffiliated school art store >> here for $19.99, which is cheaper than I have been able to find it >> online--I >> believe Jerry's is right over $20 (plus shipping, though I guess I have >> tax >> to deal with). One of the local profs does use this stuff in his classes, >> though, so that may be the reason why we seem to have it in abundance. >> >> -Jeremy- >> >> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Diana Bloomfield >> >> wrote: >> >>> Dan, >>> >>> I've used only the Gamblin PVA, and most art stores sell it. We have a >>> Jerry's Artarama here, but you could just order it online. I think >>> Jerry's >>> is the lowest price I've seen, but even my small local art store here >>> sells >>> it, too, which is more convenient, but not as inexpensive. Wherever you >>> are, check out your local art supply store, or just order it online. >>> >>> Diana >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From cacadanebay at pacbell.net Thu Mar 4 17:05:19 2010 From: cacadanebay at pacbell.net (dan jones) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 09:05:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size In-Reply-To: <749F52BC-4C92-4C80-9A50-67A15B21AA3A@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <374215.18459.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> diana thanks for the info...and just to make sure...it is the gamblin sizing product, and you do dilute it .... --- On Thu, 3/4/10, Diana Bloomfield wrote: From: Diana Bloomfield Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Date: Thursday, March 4, 2010, 7:39 AM Dan, I've used only the Gamblin PVA, and most art stores sell it.? We have a Jerry's Artarama here,? but you could just order it online.? I think Jerry's is the lowest price I've seen, but even my small local art store here sells it, too, which is more convenient, but not as inexpensive.? Wherever you are, check out your local art supply store, or just order it online. Diana On Mar 4, 2010, at 10:32 AM, dan jones wrote: > All > Sorry to come late into this thread...but where do you get PVA in the U.S.? Brand name, retailer? > Thanks > > --- On Thu, 3/4/10, Diana Bloomfield wrote: > > From: Diana Bloomfield > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" > Date: Thursday, March 4, 2010, 7:02 AM > > Henry, > > I use just a regular old cheap brush for coating the PVA.? You can wash it as soon as you use it, but? I tend to use one or two brushes, different sizes, that I dedicate to PVA use-- and not use them for anything else.? Even though it's easily washed out, I find it does change the softness of the brush.? And I definitely wouldn't use a brush as expensive as the Richeson for this. > > I use it straight, no dilution at all, but it is a very thin coat I put down. Seems to work really well for me-- no problems at all.? Others dilute.? That may also depend on the paper.? I tend to use only BFK Rives. > > I think you'll really like it.? And I always feel like I need to thank Jim Larimer for being the first here to talk about using PVA for gum printing.? It's really been so much easier and more convenient to use, not to mention offering better results. :) > > Diana > > > On Mar 4, 2010, at 7:45 AM, Henry Rattle wrote: > >> I've just acquired some Gamblin PVA size for my gum printing (thank you John >> B for alerting us to Stuart R Stevenson as UK supplier - as you say, he is >> most helpful). Now quite excited at the possibility of preparing a sheet or >> two of paper as I go, rather than batch-processing with hot gelatine >> solutions, formalin etc. >> >> I'm a bit nervous of using my precious Richeson brush for PVA. Have those of >> you who are using PVA size for gum any advice re suitable brushes and >> dilutions? >> >> Many thanks >> >> Henry >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From henk.thijs at hetnet.nl Thu Mar 4 17:08:16 2010 From: henk.thijs at hetnet.nl (henk thijs) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 18:08:16 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ? In-Reply-To: <000f01cabbbb$98988010$c600a8c0@dell4600> References: <161544.62911.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com><749F52BC-4C92-4C80-9A50-67A15B21AA3A@bellsouth.net><66575de71003040803l482ec665ocfcf68cb286def6e@mail.gmail.com> <000f01cabbbb$98988010$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: <59FF98D1-3B3C-4034-AC1A-ECAB8C0434E5@hetnet.nl> Paul, Thanks for clarification; hope i will find it somewhere in Europe. Regards, Henk ------------------------------------ www.thijs-foto.com ------------------------------------ On 4 mrt 2010, at 17:56, Paul Viapiano wrote: > Henk... > > There's always been some confusion over this on this particular list, since some substances known as PVA (glues, etc) have been used by experimenters to act as the colloid, as gum arabic serves in the process. > > However, the PVA size that we have been adopting is a different animal. Gamblin is the only brand I've seen and the only one I've used. It is very liquid-y, much like the consistency of water or milk. It is sold mainly as a size in the preparation of linen and canvas for subsequent oil painting. > > Jim Larimer and Steve Dowell first mentioned this product and I started working with it, since I was looking for something that didn't involve formaldehyde, glut or glyoxal. > > I would not try using this product as a gum arabic substitute. I have a bottle of glue here labeled "PVA adhesive" for bookbinding and such, but the product we are talking about is called "PVA size", two totally different things for our purposes and intents. > > Paul > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "henk thijs" > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" > Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 8:23 AM > Subject: [alt-photo] PVA for SIZE & GUM ? > > >> Dear List, >> Made curious about the PVA discussion (I remember threads in 2007 a.o. Katharine and David) about sizing i.s.o. gelatine and glyoxal/formaldehyde. >> But some years ago i mentioned the belgian gummist Jean Janssis ( very impressive gumprints of about 80 to 100 cm), he told me he used MOWIOL (PVA 8-88) from Kremer Pigmente not for sizing but in stead of gum arabic. >> He gave me some data, i made some tests, and yes , it works; it was a bit messy, and i preferred to work with gum arabic. >> My question is : can we use this PVA stuff for sizing and gum-dichromate ? >> regards, >> Henk >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> www.thijs-foto.com >> ------------------------------------ >> >> On 4 mrt 2010, at 17:03, Jeremy Moore wrote: >> >>> Dan, >>> >>> If you're in a college town check out the art store the students frequent. >>> They sell the 32oz Gamblin PVA Size at the unaffiliated school art store >>> here for $19.99, which is cheaper than I have been able to find it online--I >>> believe Jerry's is right over $20 (plus shipping, though I guess I have tax >>> to deal with). One of the local profs does use this stuff in his classes, >>> though, so that may be the reason why we seem to have it in abundance. >>> >>> -Jeremy- >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Diana Bloomfield >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Dan, >>>> >>>> I've used only the Gamblin PVA, and most art stores sell it. We have a >>>> Jerry's Artarama here, but you could just order it online. I think Jerry's >>>> is the lowest price I've seen, but even my small local art store here sells >>>> it, too, which is more convenient, but not as inexpensive. Wherever you >>>> are, check out your local art supply store, or just order it online. >>>> >>>> Diana >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 4 17:11:00 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 12:11:00 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size In-Reply-To: <374215.18459.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <374215.18459.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5B15FEA9-077B-46C5-95E4-68A606E4380D@bellsouth.net> Hi Dan, Well, I feel like I've repeated myself so much here, that I honestly can't tell if you're being funny or not with this question, so I'll just assume you're not. :) It is Gamblin PVA, and I personally do not dilute it (others do), but when I coat it undiluted-- it is a very thin coat I use. :) Diana On Mar 4, 2010, at 12:05 PM, dan jones wrote: > diana > thanks for the info...and just to make sure...it is the gamblin > sizing product, and you do dilute it .... > > --- On Thu, 3/4/10, Diana Bloomfield > wrote: > > From: Diana Bloomfield > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" > > Date: Thursday, March 4, 2010, 7:39 AM > > Dan, > > I've used only the Gamblin PVA, and most art stores sell it. We > have a Jerry's Artarama here, but you could just order it online. > I think Jerry's is the lowest price I've seen, but even my small > local art store here sells it, too, which is more convenient, but > not as inexpensive. Wherever you are, check out your local art > supply store, or just order it online. > > Diana > On Mar 4, 2010, at 10:32 AM, dan jones wrote: > From mineurdecharbon at skynet.be Thu Mar 4 17:12:50 2010 From: mineurdecharbon at skynet.be (Philippe Berger) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 18:12:50 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ? References: <161544.62911.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com><749F52BC-4C92-4C80-9A50-67A15B21AA3A@bellsouth.net><66575de71003040803l482ec665ocfcf68cb286def6e@mail.gmail.com><000f01cabbbb$98988010$c600a8c0@dell4600> <59FF98D1-3B3C-4034-AC1A-ECAB8C0434E5@hetnet.nl> Message-ID: <05C7CD7D2F1A450693B8FB9BCB2AB153@philbrgrf70d3e> Henk, I am on Belgium (Li?ge - Luik) 30 km of Maastrichtt I am 500 gr of Mowiol 8.8 to sell ??? Are you interesting, it is very very difficult to find on little quantity 500 gr, it is very difficult, 1000 kg it is very easy with a TVA Number Phone me of 00 32 4 369 34 96 Philippe. mineurdecharbon at skynet.be ----- Original Message ----- From: "henk thijs" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 6:08 PM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ? > Paul, > Thanks for clarification; hope i will find it somewhere in Europe. > Regards, > Henk > ------------------------------------ > www.thijs-foto.com > ------------------------------------ > > On 4 mrt 2010, at 17:56, Paul Viapiano wrote: > >> Henk... >> >> There's always been some confusion over this on this particular list, >> since some substances known as PVA (glues, etc) have been used by >> experimenters to act as the colloid, as gum arabic serves in the process. >> >> However, the PVA size that we have been adopting is a different animal. >> Gamblin is the only brand I've seen and the only one I've used. It is >> very liquid-y, much like the consistency of water or milk. It is sold >> mainly as a size in the preparation of linen and canvas for subsequent >> oil painting. >> >> Jim Larimer and Steve Dowell first mentioned this product and I started >> working with it, since I was looking for something that didn't involve >> formaldehyde, glut or glyoxal. >> >> I would not try using this product as a gum arabic substitute. I have a >> bottle of glue here labeled "PVA adhesive" for bookbinding and such, but >> the product we are talking about is called "PVA size", two totally >> different things for our purposes and intents. >> >> Paul >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "henk thijs" >> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" >> >> Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 8:23 AM >> Subject: [alt-photo] PVA for SIZE & GUM ? >> >> >>> Dear List, >>> Made curious about the PVA discussion (I remember threads in 2007 a.o. >>> Katharine and David) about sizing i.s.o. gelatine and >>> glyoxal/formaldehyde. >>> But some years ago i mentioned the belgian gummist Jean Janssis ( very >>> impressive gumprints of about 80 to 100 cm), he told me he used MOWIOL >>> (PVA 8-88) from Kremer Pigmente not for sizing but in stead of gum >>> arabic. >>> He gave me some data, i made some tests, and yes , it works; it was a >>> bit messy, and i preferred to work with gum arabic. >>> My question is : can we use this PVA stuff for sizing and gum-dichromate >>> ? >>> regards, >>> Henk >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> www.thijs-foto.com >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> On 4 mrt 2010, at 17:03, Jeremy Moore wrote: >>> >>>> Dan, >>>> >>>> If you're in a college town check out the art store the students >>>> frequent. >>>> They sell the 32oz Gamblin PVA Size at the unaffiliated school art >>>> store >>>> here for $19.99, which is cheaper than I have been able to find it >>>> online--I >>>> believe Jerry's is right over $20 (plus shipping, though I guess I have >>>> tax >>>> to deal with). One of the local profs does use this stuff in his >>>> classes, >>>> though, so that may be the reason why we seem to have it in abundance. >>>> >>>> -Jeremy- >>>> >>>> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Diana Bloomfield >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Dan, >>>>> >>>>> I've used only the Gamblin PVA, and most art stores sell it. We have >>>>> a >>>>> Jerry's Artarama here, but you could just order it online. I think >>>>> Jerry's >>>>> is the lowest price I've seen, but even my small local art store here >>>>> sells >>>>> it, too, which is more convenient, but not as inexpensive. Wherever >>>>> you >>>>> are, check out your local art supply store, or just order it online. >>>>> >>>>> Diana >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 4914 (20100304) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > From kerik at kerik.com Thu Mar 4 17:15:10 2010 From: kerik at kerik.com (Kerik) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 09:15:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size In-Reply-To: <7EE30FFD-06FF-4A84-8891-4DC5AEC4DC0E@bellsouth.net> References: <7EE30FFD-06FF-4A84-8891-4DC5AEC4DC0E@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <2447.192.146.217.50.1267722910.squirrel@www.kerik.com> I've just started using Gamblin PVA size this week. For the most part I like the results, although it's a close second to gelatin for me. It's much easier, quicker and healthier than dealing with gelatin and formaldehyde for sure! I've found it's been a little more susceptible to staining than gelatin. I'm using it for gum over palladium and it's only been an issue in even toned, smooth areas and only occasionally. Not a deal breaker and I'm sure I'll be able to work it out. I'm using it diluted 1:1 on Artistico Extra White. I apply it with an acrylic coating rod (similar to a Puddle Pusher but home-made and unbreakable) on prints up to 17 inches square. I'm preparing for Fotofest (Amy, I'll be in touch!) and this approach has helped streamline my process. Kerik www.kerik.com > Henry, > > I use just a regular old cheap brush for coating the PVA. You can > wash it as soon as you use it, but I tend to use one or two brushes, > different sizes, that I dedicate to PVA use-- and not use them for > anything else. Even though it's easily washed out, I find it does > change the softness of the brush. And I definitely wouldn't use a > brush as expensive as the Richeson for this. > > I use it straight, no dilution at all, but it is a very thin coat I > put down. Seems to work really well for me-- no problems at all. > Others dilute. That may also depend on the paper. I tend to use only > BFK Rives. > > I think you'll really like it. And I always feel like I need to thank > Jim Larimer for being the first here to talk about using PVA for gum > printing. It's really been so much easier and more convenient to use, > not to mention offering better results. :) > > Diana > > > On Mar 4, 2010, at 7:45 AM, Henry Rattle wrote: > >> I've just acquired some Gamblin PVA size for my gum printing (thank >> you John >> B for alerting us to Stuart R Stevenson as UK supplier - as you say, >> he is >> most helpful). Now quite excited at the possibility of preparing a >> sheet or >> two of paper as I go, rather than batch-processing with hot gelatine >> solutions, formalin etc. >> >> I'm a bit nervous of using my precious Richeson brush for PVA. Have >> those of >> you who are using PVA size for gum any advice re suitable brushes and >> dilutions? >> >> Many thanks >> >> Henry >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > -- Kerik www.kerik.com From keith.gerling at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 17:24:35 2010 From: keith.gerling at gmail.com (Keith Gerling) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 11:24:35 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ? In-Reply-To: <000f01cabbbb$98988010$c600a8c0@dell4600> References: <161544.62911.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <749F52BC-4C92-4C80-9A50-67A15B21AA3A@bellsouth.net> <66575de71003040803l482ec665ocfcf68cb286def6e@mail.gmail.com> <000f01cabbbb$98988010$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: <98766a901003040924o70f00591o40988cc753caec80@mail.gmail.com> Paul, I think PVA size is nothing but diluted PVA glue. The size looks a little on the thin side to use as a substitute for gum in an emulsion, but the thicker glue seems to work. On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > Henk... > > There's always been some confusion over this on this particular list, since > some substances known as PVA (glues, etc) have been used by experimenters to > act as the colloid, as gum arabic serves in the process. > > However, the PVA size that we have been adopting is a different animal. > Gamblin is the only brand I've seen and the only one I've used. It is very > liquid-y, much like the consistency of water or milk. It is sold mainly as a > size in the preparation of linen and canvas for subsequent oil painting. > > Jim Larimer and Steve Dowell first mentioned this product and I started > working with it, since I was looking for something that didn't involve > formaldehyde, glut or glyoxal. > > I would not try using this product as a gum arabic substitute. I have a > bottle of glue here labeled "PVA adhesive" for bookbinding and such, but the > product we are talking about is called "PVA size", two totally different > things for our purposes and intents. > > Paul > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "henk thijs" > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" < > alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> > Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 8:23 AM > Subject: [alt-photo] PVA for SIZE & GUM ? > > > > Dear List, >> Made curious about the PVA discussion (I remember threads in 2007 a.o. >> Katharine and David) about sizing i.s.o. gelatine and glyoxal/formaldehyde. >> But some years ago i mentioned the belgian gummist Jean Janssis ( very >> impressive gumprints of about 80 to 100 cm), he told me he used MOWIOL (PVA >> 8-88) from Kremer Pigmente not for sizing but in stead of gum arabic. >> He gave me some data, i made some tests, and yes , it works; it was a bit >> messy, and i preferred to work with gum arabic. >> My question is : can we use this PVA stuff for sizing and gum-dichromate ? >> regards, >> Henk >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------ >> www.thijs-foto.com >> ------------------------------------ >> >> On 4 mrt 2010, at 17:03, Jeremy Moore wrote: >> >> Dan, >>> >>> If you're in a college town check out the art store the students >>> frequent. >>> They sell the 32oz Gamblin PVA Size at the unaffiliated school art store >>> here for $19.99, which is cheaper than I have been able to find it >>> online--I >>> believe Jerry's is right over $20 (plus shipping, though I guess I have >>> tax >>> to deal with). One of the local profs does use this stuff in his classes, >>> though, so that may be the reason why we seem to have it in abundance. >>> >>> -Jeremy- >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Diana Bloomfield < >>> dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net >>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>> >>> Dan, >>>> >>>> I've used only the Gamblin PVA, and most art stores sell it. We have a >>>> Jerry's Artarama here, but you could just order it online. I think >>>> Jerry's >>>> is the lowest price I've seen, but even my small local art store here >>>> sells >>>> it, too, which is more convenient, but not as inexpensive. Wherever you >>>> are, check out your local art supply store, or just order it online. >>>> >>>> Diana >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 4 17:29:19 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 12:29:19 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size In-Reply-To: <374215.18459.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <374215.18459.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <30E4F1A4-A671-4EB3-9A54-7CB484CC3AF6@bellsouth.net> Dan, I should probably add that the only paper I've really been using for gum printing, with the PVA, is BFK Rives. So your paper choice may certainly make a difference whether you dilute this or not. For some reason, the PVA just seems to work really well for me on this paper, in an undiluted state. I was showing someone how to use this recently, though, and when I watched her brush it on, undiluted, I was kind of horrified by how heavy-handed she was with it. Although I pointed it out, she did go ahead and use it, and the image did immediately wash off. So when I say a 'very thin coat, undiluted,' I mean I really do use a light touch. Diana On Mar 4, 2010, at 12:05 PM, dan jones wrote: > diana > thanks for the info...and just to make sure...it is the gamblin > sizing product, and you do dilute it .... > > --- From keith.gerling at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 17:32:04 2010 From: keith.gerling at gmail.com (Keith Gerling) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 11:32:04 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size In-Reply-To: <2447.192.146.217.50.1267722910.squirrel@www.kerik.com> References: <7EE30FFD-06FF-4A84-8891-4DC5AEC4DC0E@bellsouth.net> <2447.192.146.217.50.1267722910.squirrel@www.kerik.com> Message-ID: <98766a901003040932l1bdf153en20d93e9816355578@mail.gmail.com> I've been using Gamblin PVA size this winter (on days it is warm enough to work!). But I hate the shine and will go back to gluted gelatin once it gets warm enough (to open windows and so the gelatin doesn't set up so fast). I found that the 4 inch Whizz rollers from Lowes are ideal for use in coating. On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Kerik wrote: > I've just started using Gamblin PVA size this week. For the most part I > like the results, although it's a close second to gelatin for me. It's > much easier, quicker and healthier than dealing with gelatin and > formaldehyde for sure! I've found it's been a little more susceptible to > staining than gelatin. I'm using it for gum over palladium and it's only > been an issue in even toned, smooth areas and only occasionally. Not a > deal breaker and I'm sure I'll be able to work it out. I'm using it > diluted 1:1 on Artistico Extra White. I apply it with an acrylic coating > rod (similar to a Puddle Pusher but home-made and unbreakable) on prints > up to 17 inches square. > > I'm preparing for Fotofest (Amy, I'll be in touch!) and this approach has > helped streamline my process. > > Kerik > www.kerik.com > > > > Henry, > > > > I use just a regular old cheap brush for coating the PVA. You can > > wash it as soon as you use it, but I tend to use one or two brushes, > > different sizes, that I dedicate to PVA use-- and not use them for > > anything else. Even though it's easily washed out, I find it does > > change the softness of the brush. And I definitely wouldn't use a > > brush as expensive as the Richeson for this. > > > > I use it straight, no dilution at all, but it is a very thin coat I > > put down. Seems to work really well for me-- no problems at all. > > Others dilute. That may also depend on the paper. I tend to use only > > BFK Rives. > > > > I think you'll really like it. And I always feel like I need to thank > > Jim Larimer for being the first here to talk about using PVA for gum > > printing. It's really been so much easier and more convenient to use, > > not to mention offering better results. :) > > > > Diana > > > > > > On Mar 4, 2010, at 7:45 AM, Henry Rattle wrote: > > > >> I've just acquired some Gamblin PVA size for my gum printing (thank > >> you John > >> B for alerting us to Stuart R Stevenson as UK supplier - as you say, > >> he is > >> most helpful). Now quite excited at the possibility of preparing a > >> sheet or > >> two of paper as I go, rather than batch-processing with hot gelatine > >> solutions, formalin etc. > >> > >> I'm a bit nervous of using my precious Richeson brush for PVA. Have > >> those of > >> you who are using PVA size for gum any advice re suitable brushes and > >> dilutions? > >> > >> Many thanks > >> > >> Henry > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > > > -- > Kerik > www.kerik.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From henk.thijs at hetnet.nl Thu Mar 4 17:44:27 2010 From: henk.thijs at hetnet.nl (henk thijs) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 18:44:27 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ? In-Reply-To: <98766a901003040924o70f00591o40988cc753caec80@mail.gmail.com> References: <161544.62911.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <749F52BC-4C92-4C80-9A50-67A15B21AA3A@bellsouth.net> <66575de71003040803l482ec665ocfcf68cb286def6e@mail.gmail.com> <000f01cabbbb$98988010$c600a8c0@dell4600> <98766a901003040924o70f00591o40988cc753caec80@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6B0B73FA-56FC-48FF-9175-192A985CCC39@hetnet.nl> Keith, Is this in your opinion a 'yes' to my question of using the PVA for both, just with a different dilution? thanks, Henk ------------------------------------ www.thijs-foto.com ------------------------------------ On 4 mrt 2010, at 18:24, Keith Gerling wrote: > Paul, > > I think PVA size is nothing but diluted PVA glue. The size looks a little > on the thin side to use as a substitute for gum in an emulsion, but the > thicker glue seems to work. > > > > > On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > >> Henk... >> >> There's always been some confusion over this on this particular list, since >> some substances known as PVA (glues, etc) have been used by experimenters to >> act as the colloid, as gum arabic serves in the process. >> >> However, the PVA size that we have been adopting is a different animal. >> Gamblin is the only brand I've seen and the only one I've used. It is very >> liquid-y, much like the consistency of water or milk. It is sold mainly as a >> size in the preparation of linen and canvas for subsequent oil painting. >> >> Jim Larimer and Steve Dowell first mentioned this product and I started >> working with it, since I was looking for something that didn't involve >> formaldehyde, glut or glyoxal. >> >> I would not try using this product as a gum arabic substitute. I have a >> bottle of glue here labeled "PVA adhesive" for bookbinding and such, but the >> product we are talking about is called "PVA size", two totally different >> things for our purposes and intents. >> >> Paul >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "henk thijs" >> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" < >> alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> >> Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 8:23 AM >> Subject: [alt-photo] PVA for SIZE & GUM ? >> >> >> >> Dear List, >>> Made curious about the PVA discussion (I remember threads in 2007 a.o. >>> Katharine and David) about sizing i.s.o. gelatine and glyoxal/formaldehyde. >>> But some years ago i mentioned the belgian gummist Jean Janssis ( very >>> impressive gumprints of about 80 to 100 cm), he told me he used MOWIOL (PVA >>> 8-88) from Kremer Pigmente not for sizing but in stead of gum arabic. >>> He gave me some data, i made some tests, and yes , it works; it was a bit >>> messy, and i preferred to work with gum arabic. >>> My question is : can we use this PVA stuff for sizing and gum-dichromate ? >>> regards, >>> Henk >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------ >>> www.thijs-foto.com >>> ------------------------------------ >>> >>> On 4 mrt 2010, at 17:03, Jeremy Moore wrote: >>> >>> Dan, >>>> >>>> If you're in a college town check out the art store the students >>>> frequent. >>>> They sell the 32oz Gamblin PVA Size at the unaffiliated school art store >>>> here for $19.99, which is cheaper than I have been able to find it >>>> online--I >>>> believe Jerry's is right over $20 (plus shipping, though I guess I have >>>> tax >>>> to deal with). One of the local profs does use this stuff in his classes, >>>> though, so that may be the reason why we seem to have it in abundance. >>>> >>>> -Jeremy- >>>> >>>> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Diana Bloomfield < >>>> dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net >>>> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>> >>>> Dan, >>>>> >>>>> I've used only the Gamblin PVA, and most art stores sell it. We have a >>>>> Jerry's Artarama here, but you could just order it online. I think >>>>> Jerry's >>>>> is the lowest price I've seen, but even my small local art store here >>>>> sells >>>>> it, too, which is more convenient, but not as inexpensive. Wherever you >>>>> are, check out your local art supply store, or just order it online. >>>>> >>>>> Diana >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From mineurdecharbon at skynet.be Thu Mar 4 17:45:48 2010 From: mineurdecharbon at skynet.be (Philippe Berger) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 18:45:48 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ? References: <161544.62911.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com><749F52BC-4C92-4C80-9A50-67A15B21AA3A@bellsouth.net><66575de71003040803l482ec665ocfcf68cb286def6e@mail.gmail.com><000f01cabbbb$98988010$c600a8c0@dell4600><98766a901003040924o70f00591o40988cc753caec80@mail.gmail.com> <6B0B73FA-56FC-48FF-9175-192A985CCC39@hetnet.nl> Message-ID: <5985D10D320A4804BC680AF95E8D6817@philbrgrf70d3e> Jean Janssis has the Mowiol 8.88 dilution for Gum, it is very nice Philippe ----- Original Message ----- From: "henk thijs" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 6:44 PM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ? > Keith, > Is this in your opinion a 'yes' to my question of using the PVA for both, > just with a different dilution? > thanks, > Henk > ------------------------------------ > www.thijs-foto.com > ------------------------------------ > > On 4 mrt 2010, at 18:24, Keith Gerling wrote: > >> Paul, >> >> I think PVA size is nothing but diluted PVA glue. The size looks a >> little >> on the thin side to use as a substitute for gum in an emulsion, but the >> thicker glue seems to work. >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Paul Viapiano >> wrote: >> >>> Henk... >>> >>> There's always been some confusion over this on this particular list, >>> since >>> some substances known as PVA (glues, etc) have been used by >>> experimenters to >>> act as the colloid, as gum arabic serves in the process. >>> >>> However, the PVA size that we have been adopting is a different animal. >>> Gamblin is the only brand I've seen and the only one I've used. It is >>> very >>> liquid-y, much like the consistency of water or milk. It is sold mainly >>> as a >>> size in the preparation of linen and canvas for subsequent oil painting. >>> >>> Jim Larimer and Steve Dowell first mentioned this product and I started >>> working with it, since I was looking for something that didn't involve >>> formaldehyde, glut or glyoxal. >>> >>> I would not try using this product as a gum arabic substitute. I have a >>> bottle of glue here labeled "PVA adhesive" for bookbinding and such, but >>> the >>> product we are talking about is called "PVA size", two totally different >>> things for our purposes and intents. >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "henk thijs" >>> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" < >>> alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> >>> Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 8:23 AM >>> Subject: [alt-photo] PVA for SIZE & GUM ? >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear List, >>>> Made curious about the PVA discussion (I remember threads in 2007 a.o. >>>> Katharine and David) about sizing i.s.o. gelatine and >>>> glyoxal/formaldehyde. >>>> But some years ago i mentioned the belgian gummist Jean Janssis ( very >>>> impressive gumprints of about 80 to 100 cm), he told me he used MOWIOL >>>> (PVA >>>> 8-88) from Kremer Pigmente not for sizing but in stead of gum arabic. >>>> He gave me some data, i made some tests, and yes , it works; it was a >>>> bit >>>> messy, and i preferred to work with gum arabic. >>>> My question is : can we use this PVA stuff for sizing and >>>> gum-dichromate ? >>>> regards, >>>> Henk >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------ >>>> www.thijs-foto.com >>>> ------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> On 4 mrt 2010, at 17:03, Jeremy Moore wrote: >>>> >>>> Dan, >>>>> >>>>> If you're in a college town check out the art store the students >>>>> frequent. >>>>> They sell the 32oz Gamblin PVA Size at the unaffiliated school art >>>>> store >>>>> here for $19.99, which is cheaper than I have been able to find it >>>>> online--I >>>>> believe Jerry's is right over $20 (plus shipping, though I guess I >>>>> have >>>>> tax >>>>> to deal with). One of the local profs does use this stuff in his >>>>> classes, >>>>> though, so that may be the reason why we seem to have it in abundance. >>>>> >>>>> -Jeremy- >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Diana Bloomfield < >>>>> dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net >>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dan, >>>>>> >>>>>> I've used only the Gamblin PVA, and most art stores sell it. We have >>>>>> a >>>>>> Jerry's Artarama here, but you could just order it online. I think >>>>>> Jerry's >>>>>> is the lowest price I've seen, but even my small local art store here >>>>>> sells >>>>>> it, too, which is more convenient, but not as inexpensive. Wherever >>>>>> you >>>>>> are, check out your local art supply store, or just order it online. >>>>>> >>>>>> Diana >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 4914 (20100304) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > From mail at loris.medici.name Thu Mar 4 18:01:29 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 20:01:29 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ? In-Reply-To: <6B0B73FA-56FC-48FF-9175-192A985CCC39@hetnet.nl> References: <161544.62911.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <749F52BC-4C92-4C80-9A50-67A15B21AA3A@bellsouth.net> <66575de71003040803l482ec665ocfcf68cb286def6e@mail.gmail.com> <000f01cabbbb$98988010$c600a8c0@dell4600> <98766a901003040924o70f00591o40988cc753caec80@mail.gmail.com> <6B0B73FA-56FC-48FF-9175-192A985CCC39@hetnet.nl> Message-ID: <725fa8581003041001wcfecd48ya6bf924f656387bd@mail.gmail.com> Henk, I've just moved and my darkroom is a mess right now. Also, I'm importing a NuArc 26-1KS, will have it installed in my studio next week or the week after the next. So I can't work right not, but I'm determined to try the PVA paper/wood glue (not Gamblin PVA size!) I've been using recently for sizing paper, just like you describe - since it's on the thick side. Not like others describe Gamblin size... Will let you know. (If someone else doesn't try it before me...) Regards, Loris. 2010/3/4 henk thijs : > Keith, > Is this in your opinion a 'yes' to my question of using the PVA for both, just with a different dilution? > thanks, > Henk > ------------------------------------ > www.thijs-foto.com > ------------------------------------ > > On 4 mrt 2010, at 18:24, Keith Gerling wrote: > >> Paul, >> >> I think PVA size is nothing but diluted PVA glue. ?The size looks a little >> on the thin side to use as a substitute for gum in an emulsion, but the >> thicker glue seems to work. >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: >> >>> Henk... >>> >>> There's always been some confusion over this on this particular list, since >>> some substances known as PVA (glues, etc) have been used by experimenters to >>> act as the colloid, as gum arabic serves in the process. >>> >>> However, the PVA size that we have been adopting is a different animal. >>> Gamblin is the only brand I've seen and the only one I've used. It is very >>> liquid-y, much like the consistency of water or milk. It is sold mainly as a >>> size in the preparation of linen and canvas for subsequent oil painting. >>> >>> Jim Larimer and Steve Dowell first mentioned this product and I started >>> working with it, since I was looking for something that didn't involve >>> formaldehyde, glut or glyoxal. >>> >>> I would not try using this product as a gum arabic substitute. I have a >>> bottle of glue here labeled "PVA adhesive" for bookbinding and such, but the >>> product we are talking about is called "PVA size", two totally different >>> things for our purposes and intents. >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "henk thijs" >>> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" < >>> alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> >>> Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 8:23 AM >>> Subject: [alt-photo] PVA for SIZE & GUM ? >>> >>> >>> >>> Dear List, >>>> Made curious about the PVA discussion (I remember threads in 2007 a.o. >>>> Katharine and David) about sizing i.s.o. gelatine and glyoxal/formaldehyde. >>>> But some years ago i mentioned the belgian gummist Jean Janssis ( very >>>> impressive gumprints of about 80 to 100 cm), he told me he used MOWIOL (PVA >>>> 8-88) from Kremer ?Pigmente not for sizing but in stead of gum arabic. >>>> He gave me some data, i made some tests, and yes , it works; it was a bit >>>> messy, and i preferred to work with gum arabic. >>>> My question is : can we use this PVA stuff for sizing and gum-dichromate ? >>>> regards, >>>> Henk >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------ >>>> www.thijs-foto.com >>>> ------------------------------------ >>>> >>>> On 4 mrt 2010, at 17:03, Jeremy Moore wrote: >>>> >>>> Dan, >>>>> >>>>> If you're in a college town check out the art store the students >>>>> frequent. >>>>> They sell the 32oz Gamblin PVA Size at the unaffiliated school art store >>>>> here for $19.99, which is cheaper than I have been able to find it >>>>> online--I >>>>> believe Jerry's is right over $20 (plus shipping, though I guess I have >>>>> tax >>>>> to deal with). One of the local profs does use this stuff in his classes, >>>>> though, so that may be the reason why we seem to have it in abundance. >>>>> >>>>> -Jeremy- >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Diana Bloomfield < >>>>> dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net >>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dan, >>>>>> >>>>>> I've used only the Gamblin PVA, and most art stores sell it. ?We have a >>>>>> Jerry's Artarama here, ?but you could just order it online. ?I think >>>>>> Jerry's >>>>>> is the lowest price I've seen, but even my small local art store here >>>>>> sells >>>>>> it, too, which is more convenient, but not as inexpensive. ?Wherever you >>>>>> are, check out your local art supply store, or just order it online. >>>>>> >>>>>> Diana >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From keith.gerling at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 18:03:12 2010 From: keith.gerling at gmail.com (Keith Gerling) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 12:03:12 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ? In-Reply-To: <6B0B73FA-56FC-48FF-9175-192A985CCC39@hetnet.nl> References: <161544.62911.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <749F52BC-4C92-4C80-9A50-67A15B21AA3A@bellsouth.net> <66575de71003040803l482ec665ocfcf68cb286def6e@mail.gmail.com> <000f01cabbbb$98988010$c600a8c0@dell4600> <98766a901003040924o70f00591o40988cc753caec80@mail.gmail.com> <6B0B73FA-56FC-48FF-9175-192A985CCC39@hetnet.nl> Message-ID: <98766a901003041003n559b71f5g3d92b22301716165@mail.gmail.com> Henk, Yes. Mowiol is PVA and it is used. Gloy, a glue available in the UK has been used successfully for ages and I believe it is PVA with some coloring agent. I've ordered some PVA wood glue and will be testing it for size and as a substitute for gum in the near future. Keith On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 11:44 AM, henk thijs wrote: > Keith, > Is this in your opinion a 'yes' to my question of using the PVA for both, > just with a different dilution? > thanks, > Henk > ------------------------------------ > www.thijs-foto.com > ------------------------------------ > > On 4 mrt 2010, at 18:24, Keith Gerling wrote: > > > Paul, > > > > I think PVA size is nothing but diluted PVA glue. The size looks a > little > > on the thin side to use as a substitute for gum in an emulsion, but the > > thicker glue seems to work. > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Paul Viapiano > wrote: > > > >> Henk... > >> > >> There's always been some confusion over this on this particular list, > since > >> some substances known as PVA (glues, etc) have been used by > experimenters to > >> act as the colloid, as gum arabic serves in the process. > >> > >> However, the PVA size that we have been adopting is a different animal. > >> Gamblin is the only brand I've seen and the only one I've used. It is > very > >> liquid-y, much like the consistency of water or milk. It is sold mainly > as a > >> size in the preparation of linen and canvas for subsequent oil painting. > >> > >> Jim Larimer and Steve Dowell first mentioned this product and I started > >> working with it, since I was looking for something that didn't involve > >> formaldehyde, glut or glyoxal. > >> > >> I would not try using this product as a gum arabic substitute. I have a > >> bottle of glue here labeled "PVA adhesive" for bookbinding and such, but > the > >> product we are talking about is called "PVA size", two totally different > >> things for our purposes and intents. > >> > >> Paul > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "henk thijs" > >> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" < > >> alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> > >> Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 8:23 AM > >> Subject: [alt-photo] PVA for SIZE & GUM ? > >> > >> > >> > >> Dear List, > >>> Made curious about the PVA discussion (I remember threads in 2007 a.o. > >>> Katharine and David) about sizing i.s.o. gelatine and > glyoxal/formaldehyde. > >>> But some years ago i mentioned the belgian gummist Jean Janssis ( very > >>> impressive gumprints of about 80 to 100 cm), he told me he used MOWIOL > (PVA > >>> 8-88) from Kremer Pigmente not for sizing but in stead of gum arabic. > >>> He gave me some data, i made some tests, and yes , it works; it was a > bit > >>> messy, and i preferred to work with gum arabic. > >>> My question is : can we use this PVA stuff for sizing and > gum-dichromate ? > >>> regards, > >>> Henk > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------ > >>> www.thijs-foto.com > >>> ------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> On 4 mrt 2010, at 17:03, Jeremy Moore wrote: > >>> > >>> Dan, > >>>> > >>>> If you're in a college town check out the art store the students > >>>> frequent. > >>>> They sell the 32oz Gamblin PVA Size at the unaffiliated school art > store > >>>> here for $19.99, which is cheaper than I have been able to find it > >>>> online--I > >>>> believe Jerry's is right over $20 (plus shipping, though I guess I > have > >>>> tax > >>>> to deal with). One of the local profs does use this stuff in his > classes, > >>>> though, so that may be the reason why we seem to have it in abundance. > >>>> > >>>> -Jeremy- > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Diana Bloomfield < > >>>> dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net > >>>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> Dan, > >>>>> > >>>>> I've used only the Gamblin PVA, and most art stores sell it. We have > a > >>>>> Jerry's Artarama here, but you could just order it online. I think > >>>>> Jerry's > >>>>> is the lowest price I've seen, but even my small local art store here > >>>>> sells > >>>>> it, too, which is more convenient, but not as inexpensive. Wherever > you > >>>>> are, check out your local art supply store, or just order it online. > >>>>> > >>>>> Diana > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From keith.gerling at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 18:04:00 2010 From: keith.gerling at gmail.com (Keith Gerling) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 12:04:00 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ? In-Reply-To: <725fa8581003041001wcfecd48ya6bf924f656387bd@mail.gmail.com> References: <161544.62911.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <749F52BC-4C92-4C80-9A50-67A15B21AA3A@bellsouth.net> <66575de71003040803l482ec665ocfcf68cb286def6e@mail.gmail.com> <000f01cabbbb$98988010$c600a8c0@dell4600> <98766a901003040924o70f00591o40988cc753caec80@mail.gmail.com> <6B0B73FA-56FC-48FF-9175-192A985CCC39@hetnet.nl> <725fa8581003041001wcfecd48ya6bf924f656387bd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <98766a901003041004p55a47c20ha15256c7a3be8479@mail.gmail.com> heh - the race is on!! On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:01 PM, Loris Medici wrote: > Henk, I've just moved and my darkroom is a mess right now. Also, I'm > importing a NuArc 26-1KS, will have it installed in my studio next > week or the week after the next. So I can't work right not, but I'm > determined to try the PVA paper/wood glue (not Gamblin PVA size!) I've > been using recently for sizing paper, just like you describe - since > it's on the thick side. Not like others describe Gamblin size... Will > let you know. (If someone else doesn't try it before me...) > > Regards, > Loris. > > 2010/3/4 henk thijs : > > Keith, > > Is this in your opinion a 'yes' to my question of using the PVA for both, > just with a different dilution? > > thanks, > > Henk > > ------------------------------------ > > www.thijs-foto.com > > ------------------------------------ > > > > On 4 mrt 2010, at 18:24, Keith Gerling wrote: > > > >> Paul, > >> > >> I think PVA size is nothing but diluted PVA glue. The size looks a > little > >> on the thin side to use as a substitute for gum in an emulsion, but the > >> thicker glue seems to work. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Paul Viapiano > wrote: > >> > >>> Henk... > >>> > >>> There's always been some confusion over this on this particular list, > since > >>> some substances known as PVA (glues, etc) have been used by > experimenters to > >>> act as the colloid, as gum arabic serves in the process. > >>> > >>> However, the PVA size that we have been adopting is a different animal. > >>> Gamblin is the only brand I've seen and the only one I've used. It is > very > >>> liquid-y, much like the consistency of water or milk. It is sold mainly > as a > >>> size in the preparation of linen and canvas for subsequent oil > painting. > >>> > >>> Jim Larimer and Steve Dowell first mentioned this product and I started > >>> working with it, since I was looking for something that didn't involve > >>> formaldehyde, glut or glyoxal. > >>> > >>> I would not try using this product as a gum arabic substitute. I have a > >>> bottle of glue here labeled "PVA adhesive" for bookbinding and such, > but the > >>> product we are talking about is called "PVA size", two totally > different > >>> things for our purposes and intents. > >>> > >>> Paul > >>> > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "henk thijs" > >>> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" < > >>> alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> > >>> Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 8:23 AM > >>> Subject: [alt-photo] PVA for SIZE & GUM ? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Dear List, > >>>> Made curious about the PVA discussion (I remember threads in 2007 a.o. > >>>> Katharine and David) about sizing i.s.o. gelatine and > glyoxal/formaldehyde. > >>>> But some years ago i mentioned the belgian gummist Jean Janssis ( very > >>>> impressive gumprints of about 80 to 100 cm), he told me he used MOWIOL > (PVA > >>>> 8-88) from Kremer Pigmente not for sizing but in stead of gum arabic. > >>>> He gave me some data, i made some tests, and yes , it works; it was a > bit > >>>> messy, and i preferred to work with gum arabic. > >>>> My question is : can we use this PVA stuff for sizing and > gum-dichromate ? > >>>> regards, > >>>> Henk > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------ > >>>> www.thijs-foto.com > >>>> ------------------------------------ > >>>> > >>>> On 4 mrt 2010, at 17:03, Jeremy Moore wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Dan, > >>>>> > >>>>> If you're in a college town check out the art store the students > >>>>> frequent. > >>>>> They sell the 32oz Gamblin PVA Size at the unaffiliated school art > store > >>>>> here for $19.99, which is cheaper than I have been able to find it > >>>>> online--I > >>>>> believe Jerry's is right over $20 (plus shipping, though I guess I > have > >>>>> tax > >>>>> to deal with). One of the local profs does use this stuff in his > classes, > >>>>> though, so that may be the reason why we seem to have it in > abundance. > >>>>> > >>>>> -Jeremy- > >>>>> > >>>>> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Diana Bloomfield < > >>>>> dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net > >>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Dan, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I've used only the Gamblin PVA, and most art stores sell it. We > have a > >>>>>> Jerry's Artarama here, but you could just order it online. I think > >>>>>> Jerry's > >>>>>> is the lowest price I've seen, but even my small local art store > here > >>>>>> sells > >>>>>> it, too, which is more convenient, but not as inexpensive. Wherever > you > >>>>>> are, check out your local art supply store, or just order it online. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Diana > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From viapiano at pacbell.net Thu Mar 4 18:11:36 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 10:11:36 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size References: <7EE30FFD-06FF-4A84-8891-4DC5AEC4DC0E@bellsouth.net><2447.192.146.217.50.1267722910.squirrel@www.kerik.com> <98766a901003040932l1bdf153en20d93e9816355578@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003d01cabbc6$21ad88a0$c600a8c0@dell4600> Keith... Are you using it on paper or on your prepared wood-gesso-marble-dust supports? Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Gerling" To: ; "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 9:32 AM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size > I've been using Gamblin PVA size this winter (on days it is warm enough to > work!). But I hate the shine and will go back to gluted gelatin once it > gets warm enough (to open windows and so the gelatin doesn't set up so > fast). > > I found that the 4 inch Whizz rollers from Lowes are ideal for use in > coating. > > On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Kerik wrote: > >> I've just started using Gamblin PVA size this week. For the most part I >> like the results, although it's a close second to gelatin for me. It's >> much easier, quicker and healthier than dealing with gelatin and >> formaldehyde for sure! I've found it's been a little more susceptible to >> staining than gelatin. I'm using it for gum over palladium and it's only >> been an issue in even toned, smooth areas and only occasionally. Not a >> deal breaker and I'm sure I'll be able to work it out. I'm using it >> diluted 1:1 on Artistico Extra White. I apply it with an acrylic coating >> rod (similar to a Puddle Pusher but home-made and unbreakable) on prints >> up to 17 inches square. >> >> I'm preparing for Fotofest (Amy, I'll be in touch!) and this approach has >> helped streamline my process. >> >> Kerik >> www.kerik.com >> >> >> > Henry, >> > >> > I use just a regular old cheap brush for coating the PVA. You can >> > wash it as soon as you use it, but I tend to use one or two brushes, >> > different sizes, that I dedicate to PVA use-- and not use them for >> > anything else. Even though it's easily washed out, I find it does >> > change the softness of the brush. And I definitely wouldn't use a >> > brush as expensive as the Richeson for this. >> > >> > I use it straight, no dilution at all, but it is a very thin coat I >> > put down. Seems to work really well for me-- no problems at all. >> > Others dilute. That may also depend on the paper. I tend to use only >> > BFK Rives. >> > >> > I think you'll really like it. And I always feel like I need to thank >> > Jim Larimer for being the first here to talk about using PVA for gum >> > printing. It's really been so much easier and more convenient to use, >> > not to mention offering better results. :) >> > >> > Diana >> > >> > >> > On Mar 4, 2010, at 7:45 AM, Henry Rattle wrote: >> > >> >> I've just acquired some Gamblin PVA size for my gum printing (thank >> >> you John >> >> B for alerting us to Stuart R Stevenson as UK supplier - as you say, >> >> he is >> >> most helpful). Now quite excited at the possibility of preparing a >> >> sheet or >> >> two of paper as I go, rather than batch-processing with hot gelatine >> >> solutions, formalin etc. >> >> >> >> I'm a bit nervous of using my precious Richeson brush for PVA. Have >> >> those of >> >> you who are using PVA size for gum any advice re suitable brushes and >> >> dilutions? >> >> >> >> Many thanks >> >> >> >> Henry >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > >> >> >> -- >> Kerik >> www.kerik.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From keith.gerling at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 18:20:19 2010 From: keith.gerling at gmail.com (Keith Gerling) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 12:20:19 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size In-Reply-To: <003d01cabbc6$21ad88a0$c600a8c0@dell4600> References: <7EE30FFD-06FF-4A84-8891-4DC5AEC4DC0E@bellsouth.net> <2447.192.146.217.50.1267722910.squirrel@www.kerik.com> <98766a901003040932l1bdf153en20d93e9816355578@mail.gmail.com> <003d01cabbc6$21ad88a0$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: <98766a901003041020j76133811g9f90dbe99bd8b365@mail.gmail.com> Mostly, on wood. Although I have made some very small prints on paper as well. I love the way it works and how quick and easy it is. I just hate that shine.... On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:11 PM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > Keith... > > Are you using it on paper or on your prepared wood-gesso-marble-dust > supports? > > Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Gerling" < > keith.gerling at gmail.com> > To: ; "The alternative photographic processes mailing > list" > Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 9:32 AM > > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size > > > I've been using Gamblin PVA size this winter (on days it is warm enough to >> work!). But I hate the shine and will go back to gluted gelatin once it >> gets warm enough (to open windows and so the gelatin doesn't set up so >> fast). >> >> I found that the 4 inch Whizz rollers from Lowes are ideal for use in >> coating. >> >> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Kerik wrote: >> >> I've just started using Gamblin PVA size this week. For the most part I >>> like the results, although it's a close second to gelatin for me. It's >>> much easier, quicker and healthier than dealing with gelatin and >>> formaldehyde for sure! I've found it's been a little more susceptible to >>> staining than gelatin. I'm using it for gum over palladium and it's only >>> been an issue in even toned, smooth areas and only occasionally. Not a >>> deal breaker and I'm sure I'll be able to work it out. I'm using it >>> diluted 1:1 on Artistico Extra White. I apply it with an acrylic coating >>> rod (similar to a Puddle Pusher but home-made and unbreakable) on prints >>> up to 17 inches square. >>> >>> I'm preparing for Fotofest (Amy, I'll be in touch!) and this approach has >>> helped streamline my process. >>> >>> Kerik >>> www.kerik.com >>> >>> >>> > Henry, >>> > >>> > I use just a regular old cheap brush for coating the PVA. You can >>> > wash it as soon as you use it, but I tend to use one or two brushes, >>> > different sizes, that I dedicate to PVA use-- and not use them for >>> > anything else. Even though it's easily washed out, I find it does >>> > change the softness of the brush. And I definitely wouldn't use a >>> > brush as expensive as the Richeson for this. >>> > >>> > I use it straight, no dilution at all, but it is a very thin coat I >>> > put down. Seems to work really well for me-- no problems at all. >>> > Others dilute. That may also depend on the paper. I tend to use only >>> > BFK Rives. >>> > >>> > I think you'll really like it. And I always feel like I need to thank >>> > Jim Larimer for being the first here to talk about using PVA for gum >>> > printing. It's really been so much easier and more convenient to use, >>> > not to mention offering better results. :) >>> > >>> > Diana >>> > >>> > >>> > On Mar 4, 2010, at 7:45 AM, Henry Rattle wrote: >>> > >>> >> I've just acquired some Gamblin PVA size for my gum printing (thank >>> >> you John >>> >> B for alerting us to Stuart R Stevenson as UK supplier - as you say, >>> >> he is >>> >> most helpful). Now quite excited at the possibility of preparing a >>> >> sheet or >>> >> two of paper as I go, rather than batch-processing with hot gelatine >>> >> solutions, formalin etc. >>> >> >>> >> I'm a bit nervous of using my precious Richeson brush for PVA. Have >>> >> those of >>> >> you who are using PVA size for gum any advice re suitable brushes and >>> >> dilutions? >>> >> >>> >> Many thanks >>> >> >>> >> Henry >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >>> >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> > >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Kerik >>> www.kerik.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From mail at loris.medici.name Thu Mar 4 18:27:36 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 20:27:36 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ? In-Reply-To: <98766a901003041004p55a47c20ha15256c7a3be8479@mail.gmail.com> References: <161544.62911.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <749F52BC-4C92-4C80-9A50-67A15B21AA3A@bellsouth.net> <66575de71003040803l482ec665ocfcf68cb286def6e@mail.gmail.com> <000f01cabbbb$98988010$c600a8c0@dell4600> <98766a901003040924o70f00591o40988cc753caec80@mail.gmail.com> <6B0B73FA-56FC-48FF-9175-192A985CCC39@hetnet.nl> <725fa8581003041001wcfecd48ya6bf924f656387bd@mail.gmail.com> <98766a901003041004p55a47c20ha15256c7a3be8479@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <725fa8581003041027r2a4a40e0h133da6b3ce589c58@mail.gmail.com> Keith, I'm sure you'll able to exhibit 60 20x24" prints made with PVA glue until I'll have the opportunity try it! (If it works that is...) You're the Ferrari, I'm the Trabant ;) 2010/3/4 Keith Gerling : > heh - the race is on!! > > On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:01 PM, Loris Medici wrote: > >> Henk, I've just moved and my darkroom is a mess right now. Also, I'm >> importing a NuArc 26-1KS, will have it installed in my studio next >> week or the week after the next. So I can't work right not, but I'm >> determined to try the PVA paper/wood glue (not Gamblin PVA size!) I've >> been using recently for sizing paper, just like you describe - since >> it's on the thick side. Not like others describe Gamblin size... Will >> let you know. (If someone else doesn't try it before me...) >> >> Regards, >> Loris. From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 4 18:27:49 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 13:27:49 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size In-Reply-To: <98766a901003041020j76133811g9f90dbe99bd8b365@mail.gmail.com> References: <7EE30FFD-06FF-4A84-8891-4DC5AEC4DC0E@bellsouth.net> <2447.192.146.217.50.1267722910.squirrel@www.kerik.com> <98766a901003040932l1bdf153en20d93e9816355578@mail.gmail.com> <003d01cabbc6$21ad88a0$c600a8c0@dell4600> <98766a901003041020j76133811g9f90dbe99bd8b365@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3367F516-B7DD-4BBE-A5DE-9D8FA62289AA@bellsouth.net> You know, I'm always surprised when I hear people say that. I see only a very slight sheen on my prints-- and much less noticeable than the shine (and the little sparkles-- no matter what I did to eliminate them) I consistently had when using gelatin/glyoxal. Maybe it's the paper choice, I don't know. I only get this very subtle smooth sheen-- not even all that noticeable unless you hold the image a certain way. I think that must vary depending on the paper. ?? Diana On Mar 4, 2010, at 1:20 PM, Keith Gerling wrote: > Mostly, on wood. Although I have made some very small prints on > paper as > well. I love the way it works and how quick and easy it is. I just > hate > that shine.... > > > On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:11 PM, Paul Viapiano > wrote: > >> Keith... >> >> Are you using it on paper or on your prepared wood-gesso-marble-dust >> supports? >> >> Paul >> >> >> From mail at loris.medici.name Thu Mar 4 18:33:01 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 20:33:01 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ? In-Reply-To: <725fa8581003041027r2a4a40e0h133da6b3ce589c58@mail.gmail.com> References: <161544.62911.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <749F52BC-4C92-4C80-9A50-67A15B21AA3A@bellsouth.net> <66575de71003040803l482ec665ocfcf68cb286def6e@mail.gmail.com> <000f01cabbbb$98988010$c600a8c0@dell4600> <98766a901003040924o70f00591o40988cc753caec80@mail.gmail.com> <6B0B73FA-56FC-48FF-9175-192A985CCC39@hetnet.nl> <725fa8581003041001wcfecd48ya6bf924f656387bd@mail.gmail.com> <98766a901003041004p55a47c20ha15256c7a3be8479@mail.gmail.com> <725fa8581003041027r2a4a40e0h133da6b3ce589c58@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <725fa8581003041033r2635fbdemcf0071faf237c681@mail.gmail.com> BTW I have little hopes with the product I have on hands, since it's pretty waterproof. As I said before, I had a student who did 8-9 layers on top of it w/ very little staining,and that's not pigment stain, it's kind of fogging - we haven't tried to clear it in metabisulfite... Therefore I don't think it will work the way gum arabic works - but will try anyway. Regards, Loris. From keith.gerling at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 18:46:29 2010 From: keith.gerling at gmail.com (Keith Gerling) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 12:46:29 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size In-Reply-To: <3367F516-B7DD-4BBE-A5DE-9D8FA62289AA@bellsouth.net> References: <7EE30FFD-06FF-4A84-8891-4DC5AEC4DC0E@bellsouth.net> <2447.192.146.217.50.1267722910.squirrel@www.kerik.com> <98766a901003040932l1bdf153en20d93e9816355578@mail.gmail.com> <003d01cabbc6$21ad88a0$c600a8c0@dell4600> <98766a901003041020j76133811g9f90dbe99bd8b365@mail.gmail.com> <3367F516-B7DD-4BBE-A5DE-9D8FA62289AA@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <98766a901003041046t3e00e3femb542ad044050d8ef@mail.gmail.com> to be honest, the shine is much more noticeable on the wood supports On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Diana Bloomfield < dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net> wrote: > You know, I'm always surprised when I hear people say that. I see only a > very slight sheen on my prints-- and much less noticeable than the shine > (and the little sparkles-- no matter what I did to eliminate them) I > consistently had when using gelatin/glyoxal. Maybe it's the paper choice, I > don't know. I only get this very subtle smooth sheen-- not even all that > noticeable unless you hold the image a certain way. I think that must vary > depending on the paper. ?? > > Diana > > > On Mar 4, 2010, at 1:20 PM, Keith Gerling wrote: > > Mostly, on wood. Although I have made some very small prints on paper as >> well. I love the way it works and how quick and easy it is. I just hate >> that shine.... >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:11 PM, Paul Viapiano >> wrote: >> >> Keith... >>> >>> Are you using it on paper or on your prepared wood-gesso-marble-dust >>> supports? >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> >>> >>> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Thu Mar 4 19:03:51 2010 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 19:03:51 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size In-Reply-To: <3367F516-B7DD-4BBE-A5DE-9D8FA62289AA@bellsouth.net> References: , <7EE30FFD-06FF-4A84-8891-4DC5AEC4DC0E@bellsouth.net>, <2447.192.146.217.50.1267722910.squirrel@www.kerik.com>, <98766a901003040932l1bdf153en20d93e9816355578@mail.gmail.com>, <003d01cabbc6$21ad88a0$c600a8c0@dell4600>, <98766a901003041020j76133811g9f90dbe99bd8b365@mail.gmail.com>, <3367F516-B7DD-4BBE-A5DE-9D8FA62289AA@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: For those of you that are starting PVA use, here is the word of advice. I found it helpful to be consistent and to have just the right thickness of the PVA size. The way I accomplish that is to premix the PVA with water to the right consistency (whatever that might be for your paper, typical is 1:1) and measure the amount of size that I apply. I use 25 cc per full sheet of FA. This should be enough for a quick brushing on the paper to where the whole paper is covered without dry spots. Sometimes a cc ot two extra is needed. My brush is a 2" cheap brown nylon of a thin variety(something like synthetic hake) that I have used for years. I think it was purchased at Michaels for around $5. So my useage is 12 cc of undiluted PVA/sheet, a very thin coat. Actually I could not coat that thin in an even layer as the paper would dry before I could spead it all around. 25 cc is what is needed for an even coat without creating puddles. I used the same amount for gelatine size. Marek > From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 13:27:49 -0500 > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size > > You know, I'm always surprised when I hear people say that. I see > only a very slight sheen on my prints-- and much less noticeable than > the shine (and the little sparkles-- no matter what I did to eliminate > them) I consistently had when using gelatin/glyoxal. Maybe it's the > paper choice, I don't know. I only get this very subtle smooth > sheen-- not even all that noticeable unless you hold the image a > certain way. I think that must vary depending on the paper. ?? > > Diana > > On Mar 4, 2010, at 1:20 PM, Keith Gerling wrote: > > > Mostly, on wood. Although I have made some very small prints on > > paper as > > well. I love the way it works and how quick and easy it is. I just > > hate > > that shine.... > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:11 PM, Paul Viapiano > > wrote: > > > >> Keith... > >> > >> Are you using it on paper or on your prepared wood-gesso-marble-dust > >> supports? > >> > >> Paul > >> > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469229/direct/01/ From jeremydmoore at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 19:27:43 2010 From: jeremydmoore at gmail.com (Jeremy Moore) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 13:27:43 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size In-Reply-To: References: <7EE30FFD-06FF-4A84-8891-4DC5AEC4DC0E@bellsouth.net> <2447.192.146.217.50.1267722910.squirrel@www.kerik.com> <98766a901003040932l1bdf153en20d93e9816355578@mail.gmail.com> <003d01cabbc6$21ad88a0$c600a8c0@dell4600> <98766a901003041020j76133811g9f90dbe99bd8b365@mail.gmail.com> <3367F516-B7DD-4BBE-A5DE-9D8FA62289AA@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <66575de71003041127u29830757pc591b39ae237dc56@mail.gmail.com> Marek, By "full sheet" do you mean 22"x30"? -Jeremy- On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 1:03 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > > For those of you that are starting PVA use, here is the word of advice. I > found it helpful to be consistent and to have just the right thickness of > the PVA size. The way I accomplish that is to premix the PVA with water to > the right consistency (whatever that might be for your paper, typical is > 1:1) and measure the amount of size that I apply. I use 25 cc per full sheet > of FA. This should be enough for a quick brushing on the paper to where the > whole paper is covered without dry spots. Sometimes a cc ot two extra is > needed. My brush is a 2" cheap brown nylon of a thin variety(something like > synthetic hake) that I have used for years. I think it was purchased at > Michaels for around $5. > > So my useage is 12 cc of undiluted PVA/sheet, a very thin coat. Actually I > could not coat that thin in an even layer as the paper would dry before I > could spead it all around. 25 cc is what is needed for an even coat without > creating puddles. I used the same amount for gelatine size. > > Marek > > From john at johnbrewerphotography.com Thu Mar 4 19:36:39 2010 From: john at johnbrewerphotography.com (John Brewer) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 19:36:39 -0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ? In-Reply-To: <98766a901003041003n559b71f5g3d92b22301716165@mail.gmail.com> References: <161544.62911.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <749F52BC-4C92-4C80-9A50-67A15B21AA3A@bellsouth.net> <66575de71003040803l482ec665ocfcf68cb286def6e@mail.gmail.com> <000f01cabbbb$98988010$c600a8c0@dell4600> <98766a901003040924o70f00591o40988cc753caec80@mail.gmail.com> <6B0B73FA-56FC-48FF-9175-192A985CCC39@hetnet.nl> <98766a901003041003n559b71f5g3d92b22301716165@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <030801cabbd2$0295abd0$07c10370$@com> When I first started gum printing in the 1990's I used Gloy gum, (not to be confused with Gloy paste), for the gum Arabic ingredient. I believe the recipe was 'improved' around 2000 and it wasn't suitable for printing with. I think someone, (Terry King?), did try to speak to the manufacturers to er, 'un-improve' it but I doubt if there was any success. J. -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Keith Gerling Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 6:03 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ? Henk, Yes. Mowiol is PVA and it is used. Gloy, a glue available in the UK has been used successfully for ages and I believe it is PVA with some coloring agent. I've ordered some PVA wood glue and will be testing it for size and as a substitute for gum in the near future. Keith On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 11:44 AM, henk thijs wrote: > Keith, > Is this in your opinion a 'yes' to my question of using the PVA for both, > just with a different dilution? > thanks, > Henk > ------------------------------------ > www.thijs-foto.com > ------------------------------------ > > On 4 mrt 2010, at 18:24, Keith Gerling wrote: > > > Paul, > > > > I think PVA size is nothing but diluted PVA glue. The size looks a > little > > on the thin side to use as a substitute for gum in an emulsion, but the > > thicker glue seems to work. > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Paul Viapiano > wrote: > > > >> Henk... > >> > >> There's always been some confusion over this on this particular list, > since > >> some substances known as PVA (glues, etc) have been used by > experimenters to > >> act as the colloid, as gum arabic serves in the process. > >> > >> However, the PVA size that we have been adopting is a different animal. > >> Gamblin is the only brand I've seen and the only one I've used. It is > very > >> liquid-y, much like the consistency of water or milk. It is sold mainly > as a > >> size in the preparation of linen and canvas for subsequent oil painting. > >> > >> Jim Larimer and Steve Dowell first mentioned this product and I started > >> working with it, since I was looking for something that didn't involve > >> formaldehyde, glut or glyoxal. > >> > >> I would not try using this product as a gum arabic substitute. I have a > >> bottle of glue here labeled "PVA adhesive" for bookbinding and such, but > the > >> product we are talking about is called "PVA size", two totally different > >> things for our purposes and intents. > >> > >> Paul > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "henk thijs" > >> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" < > >> alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> > >> Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 8:23 AM > >> Subject: [alt-photo] PVA for SIZE & GUM ? > >> > >> > >> > >> Dear List, > >>> Made curious about the PVA discussion (I remember threads in 2007 a.o. > >>> Katharine and David) about sizing i.s.o. gelatine and > glyoxal/formaldehyde. > >>> But some years ago i mentioned the belgian gummist Jean Janssis ( very > >>> impressive gumprints of about 80 to 100 cm), he told me he used MOWIOL > (PVA > >>> 8-88) from Kremer Pigmente not for sizing but in stead of gum arabic. > >>> He gave me some data, i made some tests, and yes , it works; it was a > bit > >>> messy, and i preferred to work with gum arabic. > >>> My question is : can we use this PVA stuff for sizing and > gum-dichromate ? > >>> regards, > >>> Henk > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ------------------------------------ > >>> www.thijs-foto.com > >>> ------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> On 4 mrt 2010, at 17:03, Jeremy Moore wrote: > >>> > >>> Dan, > >>>> > >>>> If you're in a college town check out the art store the students > >>>> frequent. > >>>> They sell the 32oz Gamblin PVA Size at the unaffiliated school art > store > >>>> here for $19.99, which is cheaper than I have been able to find it > >>>> online--I > >>>> believe Jerry's is right over $20 (plus shipping, though I guess I > have > >>>> tax > >>>> to deal with). One of the local profs does use this stuff in his > classes, > >>>> though, so that may be the reason why we seem to have it in abundance. > >>>> > >>>> -Jeremy- > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 9:39 AM, Diana Bloomfield < > >>>> dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net > >>>> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> Dan, > >>>>> > >>>>> I've used only the Gamblin PVA, and most art stores sell it. We have > a > >>>>> Jerry's Artarama here, but you could just order it online. I think > >>>>> Jerry's > >>>>> is the lowest price I've seen, but even my small local art store here > >>>>> sells > >>>>> it, too, which is more convenient, but not as inexpensive. Wherever > you > >>>>> are, check out your local art supply store, or just order it online. > >>>>> > >>>>> Diana > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > >>>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2714 - Release Date: 03/03/10 19:34:00 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2714 - Release Date: 03/03/10 19:34:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2721 - Release Date: 03/03/10 19:34:00 From jseigel at panix.com Thu Mar 4 19:40:52 2010 From: jseigel at panix.com (Judy Seigel) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 14:40:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BW POP pinhole In-Reply-To: References: , <26A6664962FE42B8A8AA981CC21031B6@philbrgrf70d3e>, <959BCA41F98848FBA46594530660BD62@altinyildiz.trk>, Message-ID: Hi Rob... If I'm not as stupid as I feel right now, then you must be a genius. Whichever.... thanks ! J. On Wed, 3 Mar 2010, Robert Young wrote: >> Another thing I'm missing is a dictionary that spells sunami, tho it >> could be I didn't find it because I'm spelling it wrong... Sorry. >> >> J. > > Tsunami :) > > Rob > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Thu Mar 4 20:12:12 2010 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 20:12:12 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size In-Reply-To: <66575de71003041127u29830757pc591b39ae237dc56@mail.gmail.com> References: , <7EE30FFD-06FF-4A84-8891-4DC5AEC4DC0E@bellsouth.net>, <2447.192.146.217.50.1267722910.squirrel@www.kerik.com>, <98766a901003040932l1bdf153en20d93e9816355578@mail.gmail.com>, <003d01cabbc6$21ad88a0$c600a8c0@dell4600>, <98766a901003041020j76133811g9f90dbe99bd8b365@mail.gmail.com>, <3367F516-B7DD-4BBE-A5DE-9D8FA62289AA@bellsouth.net>, , <66575de71003041127u29830757pc591b39ae237dc56@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, 22x30" > Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 13:27:43 -0600 > From: jeremydmoore at gmail.com > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: applying PVA size > > Marek, > > By "full sheet" do you mean 22"x30"? > > -Jeremy- > > On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 1:03 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > > > > > For those of you that are starting PVA use, here is the word of advice. I > > found it helpful to be consistent and to have just the right thickness of > > the PVA size. The way I accomplish that is to premix the PVA with water to > > the right consistency (whatever that might be for your paper, typical is > > 1:1) and measure the amount of size that I apply. I use 25 cc per full sheet > > of FA. This should be enough for a quick brushing on the paper to where the > > whole paper is covered without dry spots. Sometimes a cc ot two extra is > > needed. My brush is a 2" cheap brown nylon of a thin variety(something like > > synthetic hake) that I have used for years. I think it was purchased at > > Michaels for around $5. > > > > So my useage is 12 cc of undiluted PVA/sheet, a very thin coat. Actually I > > could not coat that thin in an even layer as the paper would dry before I > > could spead it all around. 25 cc is what is needed for an even coat without > > creating puddles. I used the same amount for gelatine size. > > > > Marek > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/ From jseigel at panix.com Thu Mar 4 20:30:18 2010 From: jseigel at panix.com (Judy Seigel) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 15:30:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ? In-Reply-To: <030801cabbd2$0295abd0$07c10370$@com> References: <161544.62911.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <749F52BC-4C92-4C80-9A50-67A15B21AA3A@bellsouth.net> <66575de71003040803l482ec665ocfcf68cb286def6e@mail.gmail.com> <000f01cabbbb$98988010$c600a8c0@dell4600> <98766a901003040924o70f00591o40988cc753caec80@mail.gmail.com> <6B0B73FA-56FC-48FF-9175-192A985CCC39@hetnet.nl> <98766a901003041003n559b71f5g3d92b22301716165@mail.gmail.com> <030801cabbd2$0295abd0$07c10370$@com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, John Brewer wrote: > When I first started gum printing in the 1990's I used Gloy gum, (not to be > confused with Gloy paste), for the gum Arabic ingredient. I believe the > recipe was 'improved' around 2000 and it wasn't suitable for printing with. > I think someone, (Terry King?), did try to speak to the manufacturers to er, > 'un-improve' it but I doubt if there was any success. > > J. For what it's worth I mention that I tried the vaunted "gloy gum" when the list first heard the word on it from Terry King (somewhere around the jurassic age, if memory serves). Terry's claim was that not only was it a great general size, but (as I recall) that it could take 3-coat separation without resizing. And he sent me a vial of Gloy out of the kindness of his heart. Alas, on this side of the Atlantic I found it utterly useless, except perhaps for re-sealing envelopes. It's possible, I realize, the water, the applicator, the whatever whatever whatever was different enough here to cause the discrepancy, but since, at the time, I'd found glyoxal & gum arabic quite serviceable I let the matter rest. But now, in light of PVA size I have another question: I usually do comparison tests with the Stouffer 21-step which give me the confidence (foolhardy or not !) to make pronunciamentos, but I have not yet used the PVA sitting on my studio table. (Life has, to date, continued to intervene.) My question perhaps should wait til then, but this thread brings it up so I ask now... I expect to run a gum workshop this summer, and tho I usually open a workshop with full-fledged paper sizing (shrink, coat, recoat, harden & like that), and my instinct is to do that anyway as a token of "history," and/or fail-safe in case PVA is a market item that could disappear or be changed by manufacturer(s), or not available in the antarctic, I wonder how folks who use PVA for gum would treat that question? TIA, Judy From zphoto at montana.net Thu Mar 4 20:40:33 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (zphoto at montana.net) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 13:40:33 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] dichromate stain Message-ID: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net> Paul, (I keep sending from my wrong email address, so a resend.) (Can you tell I am working my way down 100+ emails?) We sized the BFK with 1 coat of 1+2 water. Right off the bat. No problem with stain at all. I told Marek I would come down to Houston and kiss him, which one of these days I will :) I ordered a dozen bottles of PVA at my MSU bookstore and will dispense with the gelatin sizing method. What is so great about teaching is I will have 18 guinea pigs who will all use PVA in various manners and working styles and if there is a problem to be had with PVA they will discover it. But even before this class, I told four of my former gum students about it and all are using it and feeling like they died and went to heaven. I imagine Gamblin will not know what hit them with all of a sudden a huge run on PVA. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Mar 3, 2010, at 10:55 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > > Christina... > > > > Tell me...are you using the PVA size right off the bat before the > first layer? > > > > Are you laying down just one coat of PVA or several? > > > > Glad to hear you're getting great results! > > > > Paul Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com From viapiano at pacbell.net Thu Mar 4 20:50:02 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 12:50:02 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ? References: <161544.62911.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com><749F52BC-4C92-4C80-9A50-67A15B21AA3A@bellsouth.net><66575de71003040803l482ec665ocfcf68cb286def6e@mail.gmail.com><000f01cabbbb$98988010$c600a8c0@dell4600><98766a901003040924o70f00591o40988cc753caec80@mail.gmail.com><6B0B73FA-56FC-48FF-9175-192A985CCC39@hetnet.nl><98766a901003041003n559b71f5g3d92b22301716165@mail.gmail.com><030801cabbd2$0295abd0$07c10370$@com> Message-ID: <000501cabbdc$4378cd30$c600a8c0@dell4600> Judy, What question? You mean if PVA Size is discontinued, what will we all do? I missed something in your post... BTW, please send me some gloy for my envelopes. They won't seal properly in the desert air. Best wishes from the left coast, Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy Seigel" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 12:30 PM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ? > > On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, John Brewer wrote: > >> When I first started gum printing in the 1990's I used Gloy gum, (not to >> be >> confused with Gloy paste), for the gum Arabic ingredient. I believe the >> recipe was 'improved' around 2000 and it wasn't suitable for printing >> with. >> I think someone, (Terry King?), did try to speak to the manufacturers to >> er, >> 'un-improve' it but I doubt if there was any success. >> >> J. > > For what it's worth I mention that I tried the vaunted "gloy gum" when the > list first heard the word on it from Terry King (somewhere around the > jurassic age, if memory serves). Terry's claim was that not only was it a > great general size, but (as I recall) that it could take 3-coat separation > without resizing. And he sent me a vial of Gloy out of the kindness of his > heart. > > Alas, on this side of the Atlantic I found it utterly useless, except > perhaps for re-sealing envelopes. It's possible, I realize, the water, > the applicator, the whatever whatever whatever was different enough here > to cause the discrepancy, but since, at the time, I'd found glyoxal & gum > arabic quite serviceable I let the matter rest. > > But now, in light of PVA size I have another question: I usually do > comparison tests with the Stouffer 21-step which give me the confidence > (foolhardy or not !) to make pronunciamentos, but I have not yet used the > PVA sitting on my studio table. (Life has, to date, continued to > intervene.) My question perhaps should wait til then, but this thread > brings it up so I ask now... > > I expect to run a gum workshop this summer, and tho I usually open a > workshop with full-fledged paper sizing (shrink, coat, recoat, harden & > like that), and my instinct is to do that anyway as a token of "history," > and/or fail-safe in case PVA is a market item that could disappear or be > changed by manufacturer(s), or not available in the antarctic, I wonder > how folks who use PVA for gum would treat that question? > > TIA, > > Judy > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Thu Mar 4 20:54:37 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (zphoto at montana.net) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 13:54:37 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ? Message-ID: <4b901e0d.7f8.1900.1616@montana.net> Judy, I did do the Stouffers and found that on Fabriano Artistico EW a 1+2 size gave a beautiful tonal range with UVBL, 6 min, magenta on preshrunk paper. The other dilutions were either overkill and shorter tonal range/too slippery a surface for a good long tonal adherence or not enough sizing and staining resulted. This, of course, would be different on BFK which is a much softer paper, or any paper for that matter that is more of a printmaking paper and therefore nice and absorbent. But PVA is a cinch to teach in a workshop setting... As far as PVA going out of availability, I still think it important to share classic methods. I am doing the pt/pd unit in my alt class right now, and sure enough someone bought the classic/traditional pt/pd kit instead of NA2, and luckily I was able to refer him to the directions in my alt book because I chose to keep that method in there instead of deleting it for the much preferred by me NA2 method. I'll always keep glut or formalin hardened gelatin in my gum book. Speaking of changes, Rives BFK used to be a great paper for argyrotype, but this semester it has performed horribly. Across the board. I will scan a BFK print of a students compared to exact same everything on Weston and the difference is shocking. Velvety chocolate on Weston that looks good enough to eat. On Rives, grey, blotchy, and YUK. So BFK must have changed something since 2003. I just bought 250 sheets of the Weston (available from Zowkowski directly). It is a very inexpensive paper, too. Chris > > > But now, in light of PVA size I have another question: I usually do > comparison tests with the Stouffer 21-step which give me the > confidence > (foolhardy or not !) to make pronunciamentos, but I have not yet used > the > PVA sitting on my studio table. (Life has, to date, continued to > intervene.) My question perhaps should wait til then, but this thread > brings it up so I ask now... > > I expect to run a gum workshop this summer, and tho I usually open a > workshop with full-fledged paper sizing (shrink, coat, recoat, harden > & > like that), and my instinct is to do that anyway as a token of > "history," > and/or fail-safe in case PVA is a market item that could disappear or > be > changed by manufacturer(s), or not available in the antarctic, I > wonder > how > folks who use PVA for gum would treat that question? > > TIA, > > Judy > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From jeremydmoore at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 20:57:01 2010 From: jeremydmoore at gmail.com (Jeremy Moore) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 14:57:01 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ? In-Reply-To: References: <161544.62911.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <749F52BC-4C92-4C80-9A50-67A15B21AA3A@bellsouth.net> <66575de71003040803l482ec665ocfcf68cb286def6e@mail.gmail.com> <000f01cabbbb$98988010$c600a8c0@dell4600> <98766a901003040924o70f00591o40988cc753caec80@mail.gmail.com> <6B0B73FA-56FC-48FF-9175-192A985CCC39@hetnet.nl> <98766a901003041003n559b71f5g3d92b22301716165@mail.gmail.com> <030801cabbd2$0295abd0$07c10370$@com> Message-ID: <66575de71003041257o59d3d44cn9744ca0cada78ea6@mail.gmail.com> If Gamblin PVA Size were changed or Gamblin removed it from the market I'd just go back to formalin-hardened gelatin and make a lot fewer prints. Is this the question (what would you do if Gamblin PVA Size changed/disappeared) or are you asking in terms of teaching a workshop? -Jeremy- On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 2:30 PM, Judy Seigel wrote: > > > I expect to run a gum workshop this summer, and tho I usually open a > workshop with full-fledged paper sizing (shrink, coat, recoat, harden & like > that), and my instinct is to do that anyway as a token of "history," and/or > fail-safe in case PVA is a market item that could disappear or be changed by > manufacturer(s), or not available in the antarctic, I wonder how folks who > use PVA for gum would treat that question? > > TIA, > > Judy > > From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 4 20:58:56 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 15:58:56 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ? In-Reply-To: References: <161544.62911.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <749F52BC-4C92-4C80-9A50-67A15B21AA3A@bellsouth.net> <66575de71003040803l482ec665ocfcf68cb286def6e@mail.gmail.com> <000f01cabbbb$98988010$c600a8c0@dell4600> <98766a901003040924o70f00591o40988cc753caec80@mail.gmail.com> <6B0B73FA-56FC-48FF-9175-192A985CCC39@hetnet.nl> <98766a901003041003n559b71f5g3d92b22301716165@mail.gmail.com> <030801cabbd2$0295abd0$07c10370$@com> Message-ID: Hey Judy, I'm not sure of your exact question, and I hesitate to even answer, since I haven't actually been teaching gum for any length of time. But I did teach a workshop very recently, and we used PVA. I had a handout, though, with instructions on how to also use gelatin/glyoxal as a size, and talked about that-- but since I don't use it anymore myself, I taught with the PVA. The only downside was that-- for people who had never done any gum printing before-- I thought the prints were actually very good. Of course, that was a downside (only for me), because I felt like I'd struggled mightily in the beginning stages of learning to print gum-- just to get a damn image to come out. And here these folks were-- just making really nice prints, right off the bat. That seemed somehow all wrong to me. If I had to struggle, I figure everybody else should have to do so, too. But I certainly credit the PVA, and the ease of and success in using it-- more than my teaching, for sure. :) Diana > > I expect to run a gum workshop this summer, and tho I usually open a > workshop with full-fledged paper sizing (shrink, coat, recoat, > harden & like that), and my instinct is to do that anyway as a token > of "history," and/or fail-safe in case PVA is a market item that > could disappear or be changed by manufacturer(s), or not available > in the antarctic, I wonder how folks who use PVA for gum would treat > that question? > > TIA, > > Judy > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From jseigel at panix.com Thu Mar 4 22:01:44 2010 From: jseigel at panix.com (Judy Seigel) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 17:01:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ? In-Reply-To: <000501cabbdc$4378cd30$c600a8c0@dell4600> References: <161544.62911.qm@web81208.mail.mud.yahoo.com><749F52BC-4C92-4C80-9A50-67A15B21AA3A@bellsouth.net><66575de71003040803l482ec665ocfcf68cb286def6e@mail.gmail.com><000f01cabbbb$98988010$c600a8c0@dell4600><98766a901003040924o70f00591o40988cc753caec80@mail.gmail.com><6B0B73FA-56FC-48FF-9175-192A985CCC39@hetnet.nl><98766a901003041003n559b71f5g3d92b22301716165@mail.gmail.com><030801cabbd2$0295abd0$07c10370$@com> <000501cabbdc$4378cd30$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Paul Viapiano wrote: > Judy, >> > BTW, please send me some gloy for my envelopes. They won't seal properly in > the desert air. Well, I went to the desk where the gloy has been sitting on the shelf lo these (10?) more or less years... and found it had evaporated/condensed down to about l inch... I'd suggest a propos of the bottle discussion it would keep better in glass... J. > > Best wishes from the left coast, > > Paul > From blackburnap at hotmail.com Fri Mar 5 17:05:54 2010 From: blackburnap at hotmail.com (Peter Blackburn) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 11:05:54 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] =?windows-1256?q?PVA_for_SIZE_=26_GUM_=3F=FE?= Message-ID: Hello all: Since paper sizing is an extremely important factor to me in my work, I felt uncharacteristically compelled to add a few words to this discussion on PVA. As a rule I don't size but simply use the built-in AKD size of my Fabriano paper. For the past few years, when I've needed a size boost, I have used AKD with good results. However, being dilution and temperature sensitive, it takes a bit of experimentation and discipline to use, at least for me. Still, it works fine. Now PVA, according to reports both here and elsewhere, seems to be an even easier alternative, especially to gelatin and the hardener baggage it carries. Similar to Judy, my concerns have revolved around both the seeming proprietary nature of the Gamblin PVA size, and the fact that not a single commercial paper manufacturer, to my knowledge, uses PVA as a size. What do they know that we don't? Well, after sending out some inquiries to some of my trusted paper experts in the field, the general consensus seems to be that PVA is just too expensive for commercial paper production. OK, that makes me feel somewhat better, but I am still doing some of my own informal testing to see if I can get it to yellow or deteriorate before I give it a hardy thumbs up. Right now it's up, but leaning more in the direction of someone hitching a ride. If PVA turns out to be as pure as the wind driven snow and easier to apply than peanut butter on toast, then I believe another significant leap forward has been taken in the advancement of dichromate printing technology. Peter J. Blackburn _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469227/direct/01/ From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Fri Mar 5 17:16:42 2010 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 17:16:42 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: dichromate stain In-Reply-To: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net> Message-ID: Chris, I'll take you on that offer (coming down to Houston). On the more serious side it seems that softer papers like BFK Rives respond better to PVA size. I should try a cold pressed or softer versions of Fabriano. Side by side comparison, BFK gives crisper, more vivid gum prints then Fabriano. Marek > From: zphoto at montana.net > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 13:40:33 -0700 > Subject: [alt-photo] dichromate stain > > Paul, > (I keep sending from my wrong email address, so a resend.) > > (Can you tell I am working my way down 100+ emails?) We sized the BFK > with 1 coat of 1+2 water. Right off the bat. No problem with stain > at all. I told Marek I would come down to Houston and kiss him, which > one of these days I will :) > > I ordered a dozen bottles of PVA at my MSU bookstore and will dispense > with the gelatin sizing method. What is so great about teaching is I > will have 18 guinea pigs who will all use PVA in various manners and > working styles and if there is a problem to be had with PVA they will > discover it. But even before this class, I told four of my former gum > students about it and all are using it and feeling like they died and > went to heaven. > > I imagine Gamblin will not know what hit them with all of a sudden a > huge run on PVA. > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/ From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Fri Mar 5 17:52:11 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 12:52:11 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: =?utf-8?b?UFZBIGZvciBTSVpFICYgR1VNID/igI8=?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net> Hi Peter, I already posted this (below) a couple of weeks ago, and although it may not mean much-- since the source is Gamblin, and they're the ones that stand to make money-- though I'm skeptical that a bunch of gum printers would keep them in or out of business-- here's what the Gamblin "product specialist" wrote to me when I asked her about their PVA and its archival properties, etc. She then wrote me a follow-up email to that one, also below. Although it appears Jamee may have never met a comma she liked, I've decided to go ahead and take her at her word on the PVA. :) Dear Diana ? Thank you for contacting us. I have heard of artists using the PVA Size for dichromate printing with good results. PVA Size is basically archival, pH neutral glue that has been diluted to the perfect consistency for sizing fabric supports for oil painting. If the dichromate is adhering well to the size then I see no problem using it for this purpose. At the current dilution it no longer functions as a glue but it may still have enough tac for the process. If you find that it is not strong enough you can purchase regular PVA glue and dilute it with distilled water to the consistency that better suits your needs. Please let me know if you have any additional questions. Thank you for choosing our materials. Sincerely, Jamee Jamee Linton-Kelly | Product Specialist | Gamblin Artists Colors Co. | 503.235.1945 x-30 | www.gamblincolors.com Diana ? Yes just to confirm our PVA Size is 100% archival and pH neutral. I am glad to hear it is working well for your process. =) Please let me know if you have any additional questions. Sincerely, Jamee > > > Similar to Judy, my concerns have revolved around both the seeming > proprietary nature of the Gamblin PVA size, and the fact that not a > single commercial paper manufacturer, to my knowledge, uses PVA as a > size. What do they know that we don't? Well, after sending out some > inquiries to some of my trusted paper experts in the field, the > general consensus seems to be that PVA is just too expensive for > commercial paper production. > > > > OK, that makes me feel somewhat better, but I am still doing some of > my own informal testing to see if I can get it to yellow or > deteriorate before I give it a hardy thumbs up. Right now it's up, > but leaning more in the direction of someone hitching a ride. If PVA > turns out to be as pure as the wind driven snow and easier to apply > than peanut butter on toast, then I believe another significant leap > forward has been taken in the advancement of dichromate printing > technology. > > Peter J. Blackburn From blackburnap at hotmail.com Fri Mar 5 18:19:42 2010 From: blackburnap at hotmail.com (Peter Blackburn) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 12:19:42 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: =?windows-1256?q?PVA_for_SIZE_=26_GUM_=3F=FE?= In-Reply-To: <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net> References: , <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: Hello Diana: Thank you for bringing to my attention the communication you had with Gamblin. Jamee's comments are helpful and, hopefully, truthful. From the work I've seen on the web, I admire your vision and respect your insight. Peter J. Blackburn > From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 12:52:11 -0500 > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ?? > > Hi Peter, > > I already posted this (below) a couple of weeks ago, and although it > may not mean much-- since the source is Gamblin, and they're the ones > that stand to make money-- though I'm skeptical that a bunch of gum > printers would keep them in or out of business-- here's what the > Gamblin "product specialist" wrote to me when I asked her about their > PVA and its archival properties, etc. She then wrote me a follow-up > email to that one, also below. Although it appears Jamee may have > never met a comma she liked, I've decided to go ahead and take her at > her word on the PVA. :) > > > > Dear Diana ? > > Thank you for contacting us. > > I have heard of artists using the PVA Size for dichromate printing > with good results. PVA Size is basically archival, pH neutral glue > that has been diluted to the perfect consistency for sizing fabric > supports for oil painting. If the dichromate is adhering well to the > size then I see no problem using it for this purpose. > > At the current dilution it no longer functions as a glue but it may > still have enough tac for the process. If you find that it is not > strong enough you can purchase regular PVA glue and dilute it with > distilled water to the consistency that better suits your needs. > > Please let me know if you have any additional questions. Thank you > for choosing our materials. > > Sincerely, > > Jamee > > Jamee Linton-Kelly | Product Specialist | Gamblin Artists Colors Co. | > 503.235.1945 x-30 | www.gamblincolors.com > > > Diana ? > > Yes just to confirm our PVA Size is 100% archival and pH neutral. I am > glad to hear it is working well for your process. =) > > Please let me know if you have any additional questions. > > Sincerely, > > Jamee > > > > > > > > > > Similar to Judy, my concerns have revolved around both the seeming > > proprietary nature of the Gamblin PVA size, and the fact that not a > > single commercial paper manufacturer, to my knowledge, uses PVA as a > > size. What do they know that we don't? Well, after sending out some > > inquiries to some of my trusted paper experts in the field, the > > general consensus seems to be that PVA is just too expensive for > > commercial paper production. > > > > > > > > OK, that makes me feel somewhat better, but I am still doing some of > > my own informal testing to see if I can get it to yellow or > > deteriorate before I give it a hardy thumbs up. Right now it's up, > > but leaning more in the direction of someone hitching a ride. If PVA > > turns out to be as pure as the wind driven snow and easier to apply > > than peanut butter on toast, then I believe another significant leap > > forward has been taken in the advancement of dichromate printing > > technology. > > > > Peter J. Blackburn > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/ From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Fri Mar 5 18:44:45 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 13:44:45 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: =?utf-8?b?UFZBIGZvciBTSVpFICYgR1VNID/igI8=?= In-Reply-To: References: , <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: Hi Peter, Thank you. I really appreciate that. And, yes, I'm hoping that Jamee is being truthful. I did notice that on the Gamblin site, under their PVA blurb (below), they thank the "Canadian Conservation Institute," which, apparently, has helped "painters and conservators identify the best PVA to use." I suspect you might be able to go into the CCI site and retrieve some detailed information about their PVA. I didn't bother to do that myself, because since Gamblin mentions them specifically, I'm guessing whatever they have to say about it is good. ? Diana POLY VINYL ACETATE (PVA) SIZE Diluted with distilled water, PVA size is a contemporary size for fabric support. Conservation scientists recommend painters use neutral pH PVA size on linen and canvas instead of rabbit skin glue. PVA provides a good size layer that seals the fabric but does not re- absorb atmospheric moisture, swell and shrink like rabbit skin glue does. There are hundreds of different formulae of PVA. We acknowledge and appreciate the research of the Canadian Conservation Institute that helps painters and conservators identify the best PVA to use. Gamblin PVA Size is made from PVA that has a neutral pH and does not yellow. It also retains its flexibility and does not emit harmful volatiles. > > Hello Diana: > > > > Thank you for bringing to my attention the communication you had > with Gamblin. Jamee's comments are helpful and, hopefully, truthful. > From the work I've seen on the web, I admire your vision and respect > your insight. > > Peter J. Blackburn > From mail at loris.medici.name Fri Mar 5 18:53:00 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 20:53:00 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: =?utf-8?b?UFZBIGZvciBTSVpFICYgR1VNID/igI8=?= In-Reply-To: References: <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <725fa8581003051053q14afa4f7tafe8900cb39c9655@mail.gmail.com> PVAc glue (which could be further diluted to act as a paper sizing - essentially a glue to hold paper fibers together) has been used in bookbinding for decades, and I couldn't find any negative comment made on it by conservationists. OTOH, not all PVAc glues (or every substance called PVAc) are the same, since PVAc polymers exists with different chain lengths and ratio of hydrolysis. Also glues incorporate other additives such as plasticisers (???) and stabilizers (usually some kind of alcohol, methyl and/or polyvinyl alcohol...) etc. In any case, if the product you have on hands (be it Gamblin PVA size or any other product like the Caparol branded transparent paper/wood glue I personally use - please note that *it's not the usual/standard yellow wood glue!*) works for gum printing, just accept it as it is. I don't think it will behave much differently / negatively compared to the products used for bookbinding. I mean you're more on the safe side than being on the opposite... Regards, Loris. 2010/3/5 Peter Blackburn : > > Hello Diana: > > > > Thank you for bringing to my attention the communication you had with Gamblin. Jamee's comments are helpful and, hopefully, truthful. From the work I've seen on the web, I admire your vision and respect your insight. > > Peter J. Blackburn > > > > >> From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net >> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 12:52:11 -0500 >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ?? >> >> Hi Peter, >> >> I already posted this (below) a couple of weeks ago, and although it >> may not mean much-- since the source is Gamblin, and they're the ones >> that stand to make money-- though I'm skeptical that a bunch of gum >> printers would keep them in or out of business-- here's what the >> Gamblin "product specialist" wrote to me when I asked her about their >> PVA and its archival properties, etc. She then wrote me a follow-up >> email to that one, also below. Although it appears Jamee may have >> never met a comma she liked, I've decided to go ahead and take her at >> her word on the PVA. :) >> >> >> >> Dear Diana ? >> >> Thank you for contacting us. >> >> I have heard of artists using the PVA Size for dichromate printing >> with good results. PVA Size is basically archival, pH neutral glue >> that has been diluted to the perfect consistency for sizing fabric >> supports for oil painting. If the dichromate is adhering well to the >> size then I see no problem using it for this purpose. >> >> At the current dilution it no longer functions as a glue but it may >> still have enough tac for the process. If you find that it is not >> strong enough you can purchase regular PVA glue and dilute it with >> distilled water to the consistency that better suits your needs. >> >> Please let me know if you have any additional questions. Thank you >> for choosing our materials. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Jamee >> >> Jamee Linton-Kelly | Product Specialist | Gamblin Artists Colors Co. | >> 503.235.1945 x-30 | www.gamblincolors.com >> >> >> Diana ? >> >> Yes just to confirm our PVA Size is 100% archival and pH neutral. I am >> glad to hear it is working well for your process. =) >> >> Please let me know if you have any additional questions. >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Jamee >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > Similar to Judy, my concerns have revolved around both the seeming >> > proprietary nature of the Gamblin PVA size, and the fact that not a >> > single commercial paper manufacturer, to my knowledge, uses PVA as a >> > size. What do they know that we don't? Well, after sending out some >> > inquiries to some of my trusted paper experts in the field, the >> > general consensus seems to be that PVA is just too expensive for >> > commercial paper production. >> > >> > >> > >> > OK, that makes me feel somewhat better, but I am still doing some of >> > my own informal testing to see if I can get it to yellow or >> > deteriorate before I give it a hardy thumbs up. Right now it's up, >> > but leaning more in the direction of someone hitching a ride. If PVA >> > turns out to be as pure as the wind driven snow and easier to apply >> > than peanut butter on toast, then I believe another significant leap >> > forward has been taken in the advancement of dichromate printing >> > technology. >> > >> > Peter J. Blackburn >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Powerful Free email with security by Microsoft. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469230/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From blackburnap at hotmail.com Fri Mar 5 20:06:11 2010 From: blackburnap at hotmail.com (Peter Blackburn) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 14:06:11 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: =?windows-1256?q?PVA_for_SIZE_=26_GUM_=3F=FE?= In-Reply-To: References: , , <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net>, , Message-ID: Hi Diana: Yes, I did see the CCI approval which only added to my curiosity as to why the paper industry was omitting PVA from their sizing collection. But I think my contacts have answered that question adequately for me. None of them indicated a concern with stability or voiced any archival objections. They did question why we were using it as a size. It was a new one on them! Still, I have a few small swatches of papers coated with various dilutions of Gamblin PVA sitting in full sun, under fluorescent bulbs, and even in the freezer. I just want to know firsthand what might happen, especially under adverse conditions (as imperfect and incomplete as my testing methods may be), when a print leaves my hands into the hands of a buyer. I've done it with my pigments and paper, so this is par for the course with me. I plan to work extensively with the PVA when I start my printing season starting in April. Using only the sun, I print from April through October. Your information and input, Diana, has been very helpful and most appreciated. Peter > From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 13:44:45 -0500 > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ?? > > Hi Peter, > > Thank you. I really appreciate that. > > And, yes, I'm hoping that Jamee is being truthful. I did notice that > on the Gamblin site, under their PVA blurb (below), they thank the > "Canadian Conservation Institute," which, apparently, has helped > "painters and conservators identify the best PVA to use." I suspect > you might be able to go into the CCI site and retrieve some detailed > information about their PVA. I didn't bother to do that myself, > because since Gamblin mentions them specifically, I'm guessing > whatever they have to say about it is good. ? > > Diana > > > POLY VINYL ACETATE (PVA) SIZE > Diluted with distilled water, PVA size is a contemporary size for > fabric support. Conservation scientists recommend painters use neutral > pH PVA size on linen and canvas instead of rabbit skin glue. PVA > provides a good size layer that seals the fabric but does not re- > absorb atmospheric moisture, swell and shrink like rabbit skin glue > does. There are hundreds of different formulae of PVA. We acknowledge > and appreciate the research of the Canadian Conservation Institute > that helps painters and conservators identify the best PVA to use. > Gamblin PVA Size is made from PVA that has a neutral pH and does not > yellow. It also retains its flexibility and does not emit harmful > volatiles. > > > > > Hello Diana: > > > > > > > > Thank you for bringing to my attention the communication you had > > with Gamblin. Jamee's comments are helpful and, hopefully, truthful. > > From the work I've seen on the web, I admire your vision and respect > > your insight. > > > > Peter J. Blackburn > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _________________________________________________________________ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469229/direct/01/ From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Fri Mar 5 20:34:31 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 15:34:31 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] prints that leave our hands In-Reply-To: References: , , <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net>, , Message-ID: Hi Peter, Well, do keep us posted on what happens when the PVA sits in the sun or in the freezer. The results will be interesting. I always wonder what happens to my prints when they leave my hands, too-- but not so much from a conservation viewpoint. Some pinhole friends of mine told me, about a year ago, that they were in an "antique" store out in NM, and one of my prints was sitting up there-- all framed and matted-- for sale. Sad, but true. I have no idea who originally bought it, and since I know I didn't sell it to anyone in NM, I often wonder how it made its way out there. I hope it had a good trip. I did ask if it had held up (it was a b&w hand-tinted print, so I wondered if it was one of those I hadn't fixed long enough) :) But they said it looked great and still held up. They at least liked it enough to turn it over to see who had made it. The best part was-- the store was asking a higher price for it than I know I had originally put on it. So I felt good about that. Still, there it was-- sitting in some dark corner, far from its original home-- unsold. And then I went to a charity auction once, and saw a photograph hanging up for sale that I really liked. I got right up on it, and realized why I was so drawn to it. It was mine. So it seems when people decide to clean out their homes, my prints are the first to go. On the other hand, the one I saw also still looked great-- no fading and no yellowing. And since I was initially so drawn to it, at least I like to think I have a consistent vision. :) On Mar 5, 2010, at 3:06 PM, Peter Blackburn wrote: > > > Hi Diana: > > > > Still, I have a few small swatches of papers coated with various > dilutions of Gamblin PVA sitting in full sun, under fluorescent > bulbs, and even in the freezer. I just want to know firsthand what > might happen, especially under adverse conditions (as imperfect and > incomplete as my testing methods may be), when a print leaves my > hands into the hands of a buyer. I've done it with my pigments and > paper, so this is par for the course with me. > > From blackburnap at hotmail.com Fri Mar 5 21:57:51 2010 From: blackburnap at hotmail.com (Peter Blackburn) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 15:57:51 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: prints that leave our hands In-Reply-To: References: , , , <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net>, , , , , , Message-ID: Hi Diana: It's amazing how we can sometimes treat our images as if they were our children. The psychology of all that might lend itself to a good essay. How emotional to watch a print go off into the hands of a stranger?and how devastating to see them, as you did, abandoned in a thrift store. "I hope it had a good trip" ? what a precious phrase! Thanks for sharing both of your stories and for the great sense of humor?and humility?you expressed so well in them. No fading, no yellowing. I can sense your huge sigh of relief! Yes, I will let you know the results of my "tests" if anything significant happens to unfold. Peter > From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 15:34:31 -0500 > Subject: [alt-photo] prints that leave our hands > > Hi Peter, > > Well, do keep us posted on what happens when the PVA sits in the sun > or in the freezer. The results will be interesting. > > I always wonder what happens to my prints when they leave my hands, > too-- but not so much from a conservation viewpoint. Some pinhole > friends of mine told me, about a year ago, that they were in an > "antique" store out in NM, and one of my prints was sitting up there-- > all framed and matted-- for sale. Sad, but true. I have no idea who > originally bought it, and since I know I didn't sell it to anyone in > NM, I often wonder how it made its way out there. I hope it had a > good trip. I did ask if it had held up (it was a b&w hand-tinted > print, so I wondered if it was one of those I hadn't fixed long > enough) :) But they said it looked great and still held up. They at > least liked it enough to turn it over to see who had made it. The > best part was-- the store was asking a higher price for it than I know > I had originally put on it. So I felt good about that. Still, there > it was-- sitting in some dark corner, far from its original home-- > unsold. And then I went to a charity auction once, and saw a > photograph hanging up for sale that I really liked. I got right up on > it, and realized why I was so drawn to it. It was mine. So it seems > when people decide to clean out their homes, my prints are the first > to go. On the other hand, the one I saw also still looked great-- no > fading and no yellowing. And since I was initially so drawn to it, at > least I like to think I have a consistent vision. :) > > > On Mar 5, 2010, at 3:06 PM, Peter Blackburn wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Diana: > > > > > > > > Still, I have a few small swatches of papers coated with various > > dilutions of Gamblin PVA sitting in full sun, under fluorescent > > bulbs, and even in the freezer. I just want to know firsthand what > > might happen, especially under adverse conditions (as imperfect and > > incomplete as my testing methods may be), when a print leaves my > > hands into the hands of a buyer. I've done it with my pigments and > > paper, so this is par for the course with me. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/ From keith.gerling at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 21:57:57 2010 From: keith.gerling at gmail.com (Keith Gerling) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 15:57:57 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: prints that leave our hands In-Reply-To: References: <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <98766a901003051357k7c1b942bx14589fbdae277ba0@mail.gmail.com> Interesting stories, Diana. Thanks for sharing! On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Diana Bloomfield wrote: > Hi Peter, > > Well, do keep us posted on what happens when the PVA sits in the sun or in > the freezer. The results will be interesting. > > I always wonder what happens to my prints when they leave my hands, too-- > but not so much from a conservation viewpoint. Some pinhole friends of mine > told me, about a year ago, that they were in an "antique" store out in NM, > and one of my prints was sitting up there-- all framed and matted-- for > sale. Sad, but true. I have no idea who originally bought it, and since I > know I didn't sell it to anyone in NM, I often wonder how it made its way > out there. I hope it had a good trip. I did ask if it had held up (it was > a b&w hand-tinted print, so I wondered if it was one of those I hadn't fixed > long enough) :) But they said it looked great and still held up. They at > least liked it enough to turn it over to see who had made it. The best part > was-- the store was asking a higher price for it than I know I had > originally put on it. So I felt good about that. Still, there it was-- > sitting in some dark corner, far from its original home-- unsold. And then > I went to a charity auction once, and saw a photograph hanging up for sale > that I really liked. I got right up on it, and realized why I was so drawn > to it. It was mine. So it seems when people decide to clean out their > homes, my prints are the first to go. On the other hand, the one I saw also > still looked great-- no fading and no yellowing. And since I was initially > so drawn to it, at least I like to think I have a consistent vision. :) > > > On Mar 5, 2010, at 3:06 PM, Peter Blackburn wrote: > > >> >> Hi Diana: >> >> >> >> Still, I have a few small swatches of papers coated with various dilutions >> of Gamblin PVA sitting in full sun, under fluorescent bulbs, and even in the >> freezer. I just want to know firsthand what might happen, especially under >> adverse conditions (as imperfect and incomplete as my testing methods may >> be), when a print leaves my hands into the hands of a buyer. I've done it >> with my pigments and paper, so this is par for the course with me. >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From viapiano at pacbell.net Sat Mar 6 02:20:18 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 18:20:18 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: dichromate stain References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net> Message-ID: <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> Marek, I find the exact opposite re FAEW and BFK...isn't that funny? The BFK I have was given to me so I don't know the exact type, weight, etc of the Rives but my FA gum prints are way more detailed because of the smoother surface. Are there different surfaces for the BFK? Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marek Matusz" To: "alt photo" Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 9:16 AM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: dichromate stain Chris, I'll take you on that offer (coming down to Houston). On the more serious side it seems that softer papers like BFK Rives respond better to PVA size. I should try a cold pressed or softer versions of Fabriano. Side by side comparison, BFK gives crisper, more vivid gum prints then Fabriano. Marek > From: zphoto at montana.net > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 13:40:33 -0700 > Subject: [alt-photo] dichromate stain > > Paul, > (I keep sending from my wrong email address, so a resend.) > > (Can you tell I am working my way down 100+ emails?) We sized the BFK > with 1 coat of 1+2 water. Right off the bat. No problem with stain > at all. I told Marek I would come down to Houston and kiss him, which > one of these days I will :) > > I ordered a dozen bottles of PVA at my MSU bookstore and will dispense > with the gelatin sizing method. What is so great about teaching is I > will have 18 guinea pigs who will all use PVA in various manners and > working styles and if there is a problem to be had with PVA they will > discover it. But even before this class, I told four of my former gum > students about it and all are using it and feeling like they died and > went to heaven. > > I imagine Gamblin will not know what hit them with all of a sudden a > huge run on PVA. > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From viapiano at pacbell.net Sat Mar 6 02:24:16 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 18:24:16 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: prints that leave our hands References: , , <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net>, , Message-ID: <003301cabcd4$1ed53ba0$c600a8c0@dell4600> Diana, Thanks so much for the stories... As I sit here on the eve of hanging prints in my first show (ever!) it comes at the right time! Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diana Bloomfield" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 12:34 PM Subject: [alt-photo] prints that leave our hands > Hi Peter, > > Well, do keep us posted on what happens when the PVA sits in the sun or > in the freezer. The results will be interesting. > > I always wonder what happens to my prints when they leave my hands, too-- > but not so much from a conservation viewpoint. Some pinhole friends of > mine told me, about a year ago, that they were in an "antique" store out > in NM, and one of my prints was sitting up there-- all framed and > matted-- for sale. Sad, but true. I have no idea who originally bought > it, and since I know I didn't sell it to anyone in NM, I often wonder how > it made its way out there. I hope it had a good trip. I did ask if it > had held up (it was a b&w hand-tinted print, so I wondered if it was one > of those I hadn't fixed long enough) :) But they said it looked great > and still held up. They at least liked it enough to turn it over to see > who had made it. The best part was-- the store was asking a higher price > for it than I know I had originally put on it. So I felt good about > that. Still, there it was-- sitting in some dark corner, far from its > original home-- unsold. And then I went to a charity auction once, and > saw a photograph hanging up for sale that I really liked. I got right up > on it, and realized why I was so drawn to it. It was mine. So it seems > when people decide to clean out their homes, my prints are the first to > go. On the other hand, the one I saw also still looked great-- no fading > and no yellowing. And since I was initially so drawn to it, at least I > like to think I have a consistent vision. :) > > > On Mar 5, 2010, at 3:06 PM, Peter Blackburn wrote: > >> >> >> Hi Diana: >> >> >> >> Still, I have a few small swatches of papers coated with various >> dilutions of Gamblin PVA sitting in full sun, under fluorescent bulbs, >> and even in the freezer. I just want to know firsthand what might >> happen, especially under adverse conditions (as imperfect and incomplete >> as my testing methods may be), when a print leaves my hands into the >> hands of a buyer. I've done it with my pigments and paper, so this is >> par for the course with me. >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Sat Mar 6 02:53:38 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 21:53:38 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: prints that leave our hands In-Reply-To: <003301cabcd4$1ed53ba0$c600a8c0@dell4600> References: , , <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net>, , <003301cabcd4$1ed53ba0$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: <90C51993-8CFA-4914-AA12-4940E3A4FCC6@bellsouth.net> Hey Paul, Well, I'm glad a few people enjoyed those little stories. Gosh, I have so many more. But congratulations on hanging prints in your very first show! That is exciting, Paul. What kind of prints will you be showing? And where are you hanging the work-- or, where are you located? I'm sure it will be rewarding for you. I seem to always learn a lot when I put a show together. I sometimes think of my work as being really disparate, especially when I'm home working on prints all by myself. And then when I put some work together to actually hang somewhere, I'm always a little surprised that it all seems to actually flow-- like I had a real plan from the very beginning. :) Do report back on how it all goes, though, and how terrific your work looks, I'm sure-- all hanging together. Diana On Mar 5, 2010, at 9:24 PM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > Diana, > > Thanks so much for the stories... > > As I sit here on the eve of hanging prints in my first show (ever!) > it comes at the right time! > > Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diana Bloomfield" > > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" > > Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 12:34 PM > Subject: [alt-photo] prints that leave our hands > > >> Hi Peter, >> >> Well, do keep us posted on what happens when the PVA sits in the >> sun or in the freezer. The results will be interesting. >> >> I always wonder what happens to my prints when they leave my >> hands, too-- but not so much from a conservation viewpoint. Some >> pinhole friends of mine told me, about a year ago, that they were >> in an "antique" store out in NM, and one of my prints was sitting >> up there-- all framed and matted-- for sale. Sad, but true. I >> have no idea who originally bought it, and since I know I didn't >> sell it to anyone in NM, I often wonder how it made its way out >> there. I hope it had a good trip. I did ask if it had held up >> (it was a b&w hand-tinted print, so I wondered if it was one of >> those I hadn't fixed long enough) :) But they said it looked >> great and still held up. They at least liked it enough to turn it >> over to see who had made it. The best part was-- the store was >> asking a higher price for it than I know I had originally put on >> it. So I felt good about that. Still, there it was-- sitting in >> some dark corner, far from its original home-- unsold. And then I >> went to a charity auction once, and saw a photograph hanging up >> for sale that I really liked. I got right up on it, and realized >> why I was so drawn to it. It was mine. So it seems when people >> decide to clean out their homes, my prints are the first to go. >> On the other hand, the one I saw also still looked great-- no >> fading and no yellowing. And since I was initially so drawn to it, >> at least I like to think I have a consistent vision. :) >> >> From geoff at geoffgallery.net Sat Mar 6 03:26:51 2010 From: geoff at geoffgallery.net (geoff chaplin) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 03:26:51 -0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: =?utf-8?b?UFZBIGZvciBTSVpFICYgR1VNID/igI8=?= In-Reply-To: References: , , <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net>, , Message-ID: I'm confused and I suspect others are too. PVA is a non-unique name: looking at Wikipedia we have the following PVA=PVOH=PVAL polyvinyl alcohol - the common brownish 'PVA glue'. (Something I have used to make 'gum' prints with and also as a size and it works well for both though maybe wouldn't suit the colour gum printers since it is difficult to get a really smooth and even single coat.) PVA=PVAc polyvinyl acetate - white wood glue, sealant, used in bookbinding and is a raw material used to make PVAL. (PVAc is something I have used to make photosinks and tables with :-) but not gum prints.) Now what is PVA size? One mail refers to it as PVAc while another says it is different from wood glue. I suspect the above two definitions of PVA are just the tip of the iceberg and there may be many polymer variants lurking under the PVA banner. It would be useful for us and future generations if we can actually pin down the chemical compound we do find useful as a size, rather than a product name for a product that may be gone tomorrow. Incidentally I and others have had good results from Windor & Newton's Acrylic Clear Gesso Base (contains 'acrylic co-polymer') and also Kusakabe Gesso as a size. Geoff Chaplin ?????????? geoff at geoffgallery.net www.geoffgallery.net Skype: geoffchaplin1611 UK mobile (???????): +44(0) 7770 787069 Japan mobile (???????): +81(0) 90 6440 7037 Japan land line / fax (??????????): +81(0) 166 92 5855 From jeremydmoore at gmail.com Sat Mar 6 03:28:29 2010 From: jeremydmoore at gmail.com (Jeremy Moore) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 21:28:29 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: =?utf-8?b?UFZBIGZvciBTSVpFICYgR1VNID/igI8=?= In-Reply-To: References: <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <66575de71003051928x13ed211fs15985f750376e721@mail.gmail.com> That's why I have been very specific to mention in all of my emails that I am using Gamblin PVA Size. "Gamblin" is the manufacturer and "PVA Size" is the product. -Jeremy- On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 9:26 PM, geoff chaplin wrote: > I'm confused and I suspect others are too. PVA is a non-unique name: > looking at Wikipedia we have the following > > > > Geoff Chaplin > ??? ?????? > > geoff at geoffgallery.net > www.geoffgallery.net > Skype: geoffchaplin1611 > UK mobile (???????): +44(0) 7770 787069 > Japan mobile (???????): +81(0) 90 6440 7037 > Japan land line / fax (??????????): +81(0) 166 92 5855 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From geoff at geoffgallery.net Sat Mar 6 03:38:14 2010 From: geoff at geoffgallery.net (geoff chaplin) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 03:38:14 -0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: =?utf-8?b?UFZBIGZvciBTSVpFICYgR1VNID/igI8=?= In-Reply-To: <66575de71003051928x13ed211fs15985f750376e721@mail.gmail.com> References: <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net> <66575de71003051928x13ed211fs15985f750376e721@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: And when Gamblin no longer exists or doesn't make the product any more what do we use then? Geoff Chaplin ?????????? geoff at geoffgallery.net www.geoffgallery.net Skype: geoffchaplin1611 UK mobile (???????): +44(0) 7770 787069 Japan mobile (???????): +81(0) 90 6440 7037 Japan land line / fax (??????????): +81(0) 166 92 5855 -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Moore Sent: 06 March 2010 03:28 To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ?? That's why I have been very specific to mention in all of my emails that I am using Gamblin PVA Size. "Gamblin" is the manufacturer and "PVA Size" is the product. -Jeremy- On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 9:26 PM, geoff chaplin wrote: > I'm confused and I suspect others are too. PVA is a non-unique name: > looking at Wikipedia we have the following > > > > Geoff Chaplin > ??? ?????? > > geoff at geoffgallery.net > www.geoffgallery.net > Skype: geoffchaplin1611 > UK mobile (???????): +44(0) 7770 787069 > Japan mobile (???????): +81(0) 90 6440 7037 > Japan land line / fax (??????????): +81(0) 166 92 5855 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From kerik at kerik.com Sat Mar 6 03:50:34 2010 From: kerik at kerik.com (Kerik Kouklis) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 19:50:34 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ?? In-Reply-To: References: <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net> <66575de71003051928x13ed211fs15985f750376e721@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000c01cabce0$2d22ec00$8768c400$@com> Well, probably whatever the current best alternative is at the time. I think there's a good chance gelatin will still be around. Does it make sense to NOT use something because someday it may no longer exist? Kerik www.kerik.com -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of geoff chaplin Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 7:38 PM To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ?? And when Gamblin no longer exists or doesn't make the product any more what do we use then? Geoff Chaplin -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Moore Sent: 06 March 2010 03:28 To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ?? That's why I have been very specific to mention in all of my emails that I am using Gamblin PVA Size. "Gamblin" is the manufacturer and "PVA Size" is the product. -Jeremy- On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 9:26 PM, geoff chaplin wrote: > I'm confused and I suspect others are too. PVA is a non-unique name: > looking at Wikipedia we have the following > > > > Geoff Chaplin > ??? ?????? > > geoff at geoffgallery.net > www.geoffgallery.net > Skype: geoffchaplin1611 > UK mobile (???????): +44(0) 7770 787069 > Japan mobile (???????): +81(0) 90 6440 7037 > Japan land line / fax (??????????): +81(0) 166 92 5855 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From geoff at geoffgallery.net Sat Mar 6 04:26:41 2010 From: geoff at geoffgallery.net (geoff chaplin) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 04:26:41 -0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ?? In-Reply-To: <000c01cabce0$2d22ec00$8768c400$@com> References: <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net> <66575de71003051928x13ed211fs15985f750376e721@mail.gmail.com> <000c01cabce0$2d22ec00$8768c400$@com> Message-ID: No one's objecting to using it just the more we find out about it the better for us and those who come after and want to follow our methods. I'm sure we're all familiar with the problem - reading old texts and descriptions of methods referring to materials which are no longer available or have changed. Geoff Chaplin ?????????? geoff at geoffgallery.net www.geoffgallery.net Skype: geoffchaplin1611 UK mobile (???????): +44(0) 7770 787069 Japan mobile (???????): +81(0) 90 6440 7037 Japan land line / fax (??????????): +81(0) 166 92 5855 -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Kerik Kouklis Sent: 06 March 2010 03:51 To: 'The alternative photographic processes mailing list' Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ?? Well, probably whatever the current best alternative is at the time. I think there's a good chance gelatin will still be around. Does it make sense to NOT use something because someday it may no longer exist? Kerik www.kerik.com -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of geoff chaplin Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 7:38 PM To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ?? And when Gamblin no longer exists or doesn't make the product any more what do we use then? Geoff Chaplin -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Moore Sent: 06 March 2010 03:28 To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ?? That's why I have been very specific to mention in all of my emails that I am using Gamblin PVA Size. "Gamblin" is the manufacturer and "PVA Size" is the product. -Jeremy- On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 9:26 PM, geoff chaplin wrote: > I'm confused and I suspect others are too. PVA is a non-unique name: > looking at Wikipedia we have the following > > > > Geoff Chaplin > ??? ?????? > > geoff at geoffgallery.net > www.geoffgallery.net > Skype: geoffchaplin1611 > UK mobile (???????): +44(0) 7770 787069 > Japan mobile (???????): +81(0) 90 6440 7037 > Japan land line / fax (??????????): +81(0) 166 92 5855 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From gws1 at columbia.edu Sat Mar 6 05:09:30 2010 From: gws1 at columbia.edu (Greg Schmitz) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 20:09:30 -0900 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ?? In-Reply-To: References: <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net> <66575de71003051928x13ed211fs15985f750376e721@mail.gmail.com> <000c01cabce0$2d22ec00$8768c400$@com> Message-ID: <4B91E38A.20805@columbia.edu> PVA is a pretty common item and a very broad term, though it is available in a variety of flavors and some dealers make proprietary claims for the PVA they sell. Referring to items by brand is sometimes the only alternative, but if you can identify a more specific generic term that would certainly be preferable. See for example: Topics: Adhesives (pdf file) www.calintec.com/uploads/adhesives.pdf or http://talasonline.com , specifically: http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_listing.cfm?ClientID=15&CategoryFullID=105 or http://www.museumservicescorporation.com/scat/b.html --greg schmtiz On 3/5/10 7:26 PM, geoff chaplin wrote: > No one's objecting to using it just the more we find out about it the better > for us and those who come after and want to follow our methods. I'm sure > we're all familiar with the problem - reading old texts and descriptions of > methods referring to materials which are no longer available or have > changed. > > Geoff Chaplin > ?????????? > > geoff at geoffgallery.net > www.geoffgallery.net > Skype: geoffchaplin1611 > UK mobile (???????): +44(0) 7770 787069 > Japan mobile (???????): +81(0) 90 6440 7037 > Japan land line / fax (??????????): +81(0) 166 92 5855 From gws1 at columbia.edu Sat Mar 6 05:16:31 2010 From: gws1 at columbia.edu (Greg Schmitz) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 20:16:31 -0900 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ?? In-Reply-To: <4B91E38A.20805@columbia.edu> References: <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net> <66575de71003051928x13ed211fs15985f750376e721@mail.gmail.com> <000c01cabce0$2d22ec00$8768c400$@com> <4B91E38A.20805@columbia.edu> Message-ID: <4B91E52F.1080205@columbia.edu> Here's another link: http://nautarch.tamu.edu/crl/conservationmanual/File2.htm On 3/5/10 8:09 PM, Greg Schmitz wrote: > PVA is a pretty common item and a very broad term, though it is > available in a variety of flavors and some dealers make proprietary > claims for the PVA they sell. Referring to items by brand is sometimes > the only alternative, but if you can identify a more specific generic > term that would certainly be preferable. See for example: > > Topics: Adhesives (pdf file) > > www.calintec.com/uploads/adhesives.pdf > > or > > http://talasonline.com , specifically: > http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_listing.cfm?ClientID=15&CategoryFullID=105 > > or > > http://www.museumservicescorporation.com/scat/b.html > > > > > --greg schmtiz > > > > On 3/5/10 7:26 PM, geoff chaplin wrote: > >> No one's objecting to using it just the more we find out about it the better >> for us and those who come after and want to follow our methods. I'm sure >> we're all familiar with the problem - reading old texts and descriptions of >> methods referring to materials which are no longer available or have >> changed. >> >> Geoff Chaplin >> ?????????? >> >> geoff at geoffgallery.net >> www.geoffgallery.net >> Skype: geoffchaplin1611 >> UK mobile (???????): +44(0) 7770 787069 >> Japan mobile (???????): +81(0) 90 6440 7037 >> Japan land line / fax (??????????): +81(0) 166 92 5855 >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > From hchapman at coastside.net Sat Mar 6 05:17:43 2010 From: hchapman at coastside.net (Harlan Chapman) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 21:17:43 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Weston Source? Message-ID: Chris, I fruitlessly searched Zowkowski as a source for the Weston to use for Argyrotype. I'd like to find some and was hoping you could provide more information on how to get in touch with the vendor. Thank you very much, Harlan From geoff at geoffgallery.net Sat Mar 6 06:09:22 2010 From: geoff at geoffgallery.net (geoff chaplin) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 06:09:22 -0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ?? In-Reply-To: <4B91E52F.1080205@columbia.edu> References: <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net> <66575de71003051928x13ed211fs15985f750376e721@mail.gmail.com> <000c01cabce0$2d22ec00$8768c400$@com> <4B91E38A.20805@columbia.edu> <4B91E52F.1080205@columbia.edu> Message-ID: Thanks - that?s useful. Reading this and other material I'm guessing the 'pva size' is similar to what other manufacturers refer to as 'acrylic gesso'. The two other products I referred to before describe themselves as 'gesso' or 'acrylic gesso' and are intended as sizing for use by artists. They seem to work for gum sizing - does anyone know if they are actually basically the same as the Gamlin size? If there are differences do we know what they are? Has anyone compared these products and is one clearly superior? Incidentally Gamblin is not a product easily available where I live, hence one of the reasons for the interest in its make up. Geoff Chaplin ?????????? geoff at geoffgallery.net www.geoffgallery.net Skype: geoffchaplin1611 UK mobile (???????): +44(0) 7770 787069 Japan mobile (???????): +81(0) 90 6440 7037 Japan land line / fax (??????????): +81(0) 166 92 5855 -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Greg Schmitz Sent: 06 March 2010 05:17 To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ?? Here's another link: http://nautarch.tamu.edu/crl/conservationmanual/File2.htm On 3/5/10 8:09 PM, Greg Schmitz wrote: > PVA is a pretty common item and a very broad term, though it is > available in a variety of flavors and some dealers make proprietary > claims for the PVA they sell. Referring to items by brand is sometimes > the only alternative, but if you can identify a more specific generic > term that would certainly be preferable. See for example: > > Topics: Adhesives (pdf file) > > www.calintec.com/uploads/adhesives.pdf > > or > > http://talasonline.com , specifically: > http://apps.webcreate.com/ecom/catalog/product_listing.cfm?ClientID=15&Categ oryFullID=105 > > or > > http://www.museumservicescorporation.com/scat/b.html > > > > > --greg schmtiz > > > > On 3/5/10 7:26 PM, geoff chaplin wrote: > >> No one's objecting to using it just the more we find out about it the better >> for us and those who come after and want to follow our methods. I'm sure >> we're all familiar with the problem - reading old texts and descriptions of >> methods referring to materials which are no longer available or have >> changed. >> >> Geoff Chaplin >> ?????????? >> >> geoff at geoffgallery.net >> www.geoffgallery.net >> Skype: geoffchaplin1611 >> UK mobile (???????): +44(0) 7770 787069 >> Japan mobile (???????): +81(0) 90 6440 7037 >> Japan land line / fax (??????????): +81(0) 166 92 5855 >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Sat Mar 6 09:46:23 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 11:46:23 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: =?utf-8?b?UFZBIGZvciBTSVpFICYgR1VNID/igI8=?= In-Reply-To: References: <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net> <66575de71003051928x13ed211fs15985f750376e721@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <725fa8581003060146x4a4c3e68kfc8be9c20cbcd4eb@mail.gmail.com> Geoff, the *very first* transparent paper/wood PVAc glue that I've tried worked perfectly for me. Maybe I was too lucky but still I don't think you'll have great difficulties in finding a replacement product, I mean in case Gamblin drops the product and/or change its formulation making it incompatible with our purposes and/or the price becomes prohibitive... (The last one is exactly my case; I have to import the product with additional shipment costs and customs duty, OTOH the product I buy costs me only GBP 3.45 / USD 5.25 per kg, and I can buy it from the shop located next door...) Regards, Loris. 2010/3/6 geoff chaplin : > And when Gamblin no longer exists or doesn't make the product any more what do we use > then? From mail at loris.medici.name Sat Mar 6 09:53:09 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 11:53:09 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Source? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <725fa8581003060153t30614ec3n9fd91189abdd9c2e@mail.gmail.com> Harlan see this: http://www.alternativephotography.com/articles/art134.html (John Zokowski's contact info in the bottom of the page...) This article/interview isn't much new, I'm sure Christina will provide current info in case the contact information has changed. Regards, Loris. 2010/3/6 Harlan Chapman : > Chris, > I fruitlessly searched Zowkowski as a source for the Weston to use for > Argyrotype. I'd like to find some and was hoping you could provide more > information on how to get in touch with the vendor. > Thank you very much, > Harlan > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From mail at loris.medici.name Sat Mar 6 09:54:11 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 11:54:11 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Source? In-Reply-To: <725fa8581003060153t30614ec3n9fd91189abdd9c2e@mail.gmail.com> References: <725fa8581003060153t30614ec3n9fd91189abdd9c2e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <725fa8581003060154w4863e957lacba4f0b1dfbf944@mail.gmail.com> This article also has contact information: http://www.alternativephotography.com/articles/art132.html 2010/3/6 Loris Medici : > Harlan see this: > > http://www.alternativephotography.com/articles/art134.html > (John Zokowski's contact info in the bottom of the page...) > > This article/interview isn't much new, I'm sure Christina will provide > current info in case the contact information has changed. > > Regards, > Loris. > > > 2010/3/6 Harlan Chapman : >> Chris, >> I fruitlessly searched Zowkowski as a source for the Weston to use for >> Argyrotype. I'd like to find some and was hoping you could provide more >> information on how to get in touch with the vendor. >> Thank you very much, >> Harlan >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > From mail at loris.medici.name Sat Mar 6 10:01:57 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 12:01:57 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ?? In-Reply-To: References: <66575de71003051928x13ed211fs15985f750376e721@mail.gmail.com> <000c01cabce0$2d22ec00$8768c400$@com> <4B91E38A.20805@columbia.edu> <4B91E52F.1080205@columbia.edu> Message-ID: <725fa8581003060201q759bb248o4f29cabb7f02fb8b@mail.gmail.com> Geoff, "acrylic" gesso isn't the same thing as "PVA" size / glue at all. They're completely different compounds... I've tried many acrylic products and they were all making the support too slick for my liking and my most successful attempts were only moderately so. BTW, you'll definitely have to add something into the acrylic gesso to make it work with gum. (Calcium carbonate powder / marble dust, pumice and such... Even gelatin!) Regards, Loris. 2010/3/6 geoff chaplin : > Thanks - that?s useful. Reading this and other material I'm guessing the > 'pva size' is similar to what other manufacturers refer to as 'acrylic > gesso'. The two other products I referred to before describe themselves as > 'gesso' or 'acrylic gesso' and are intended as sizing for use by artists. > They seem to work for gum sizing - does anyone know if they are actually > basically the same as the Gamlin size? If there are differences do we know > what they are? Has anyone compared these products and is one clearly > superior? > > Incidentally Gamblin is not a product easily available where I live, hence > one of the reasons for the interest in its make up. From mail at loris.medici.name Sat Mar 6 10:05:09 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 12:05:09 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: =?utf-8?b?UFZBIGZvciBTSVpFICYgR1VNID/igI8=?= In-Reply-To: <725fa8581003060146x4a4c3e68kfc8be9c20cbcd4eb@mail.gmail.com> References: <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net> <66575de71003051928x13ed211fs15985f750376e721@mail.gmail.com> <725fa8581003060146x4a4c3e68kfc8be9c20cbcd4eb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <725fa8581003060205tc8fe7c6web64f1038711915b@mail.gmail.com> See for keywords: "PVA" (or "PVAc"), "transparent", "paper glue" and "waterproof" in product datasheets, in order to locate (and try) presumably suitable local products... Regards, Loris. 2010/3/6 Loris Medici : > Geoff, the *very first* transparent paper/wood PVAc glue that I've > tried worked perfectly for me. > .. From zphoto at montana.net Sat Mar 6 11:40:54 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 06:40:54 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Source? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C433968-DFD0-4E49-9F1D-41BC18321D88@montana.net> Here's the information, Harlan, below, the price of the paper etc. In my case I am ordering large amounts because I sell it by the sheet to students. I don't have the price for individual sheets if you bought, say, 10. It is a thinner paper than like a Crane's Cover, but for the price it is very student-friendly. NOT for gum printing though! It is a one-time wet process paper. But then again, I had a student do tricolor on cheap vellum. And I had a student calibrate a curve off of toilet paper.... Chris jzokowski at comcast.net John Zokowski Butler-Dearden Paper 413-247-9073 > We have both 22 X 34 and 28 X 34 > > The costs are as follows: 100 sheets of 22 X 34 is $1.53/sheet, and 100 > sheets > of the 28 X 34 is $1.96/sheet. > > 250 of 22 X 34 would be $1.40/sheet, and 250 of the 28 X 34 would be > $1.53/sheet . Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Mar 6, 2010, at 12:17 AM, Harlan Chapman wrote: > Chris, > I fruitlessly searched Zowkowski as a source for the Weston to use for > Argyrotype. I'd like to find some and was hoping you could provide more > information on how to get in touch with the vendor. > Thank you very much, > Harlan > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From jsmigiel at net-link.net Sat Mar 6 13:32:43 2010 From: jsmigiel at net-link.net (Joseph Smigiel) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 08:32:43 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ?? In-Reply-To: References: <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net> <66575de71003051928x13ed211fs15985f750376e721@mail.gmail.com> <000c01cabce0$2d22ec00$8768c400$@com> <4B91E38A.20805@columbia.edu> <4B91E52F.1080205@columbia.edu> Message-ID: The link to Gamblin's MSDS for their PVA size can be found on this page: http://www.gamblincolors.com/sizes.grounds/index.html Joe From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Sat Mar 6 15:23:39 2010 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 15:23:39 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: dichromate stain In-Reply-To: <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: Paul, I did not refer to the print detail as such but to the crispness of color and color saturation achived with the same amount of gum/pigment on the two papers. Much better on the Rives BFK. It is surprising since the surface is softer with some texture. It does take a bit more concentrated PVA size. I looked around and to my surprise Rives BFK comes in only one flavor, but many colors. It is possible that what was made years ago is a different paper that is sold today. Marek > From: viapiano at pacbell.net > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 18:20:18 -0800 > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: dichromate stain > > Marek, > > I find the exact opposite re FAEW and BFK...isn't that funny? > > The BFK I have was given to me so I don't know the exact type, weight, etc > of the Rives but my FA gum prints are way more detailed because of the > smoother surface. > > Are there different surfaces for the BFK? > > Paul > _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/ From awschmitt at verizon.net Sat Mar 6 15:43:04 2010 From: awschmitt at verizon.net (Andy Schmitt) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2010 10:43:04 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] John Zokowski as a source of paper - from Christina In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0E64CF8010CA4BC696F186CCD696D411@TOSHIBAAndy> This is the paper Tillman Crane has been having me buy for the Platinum students at Peters Valley Craft Center. Wonderful stuff & John is a great guy to work with. I believe he also sells a number of other verities as well... [You got a student to pull off a TRI-color on vellum.....I'm impressed...was the student talking to themselves after it was over? 8o))] regards Andy Schmitt Head of Photography, Peters Valley Craft Center 2010 schedule available on line at: http://www.petersvalley.org/brochure/photography.pdf ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 06:40:54 -0500 From: Christina Anderson To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Source? Message-ID: <4C433968-DFD0-4E49-9F1D-41BC18321D88 at montana.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Here's the information, Harlan, below, the price of the paper etc. In my case I am ordering large amounts because I sell it by the sheet to students. I don't have the price for individual sheets if you bought, say, 10. It is a thinner paper than like a Crane's Cover, but for the price it is very student-friendly. NOT for gum printing though! It is a one-time wet process paper. But then again, I had a student do tricolor on cheap vellum. And I had a student calibrate a curve off of toilet paper.... Chris jzokowski at comcast.net John Zokowski Butler-Dearden Paper 413-247-9073 > We have both 22 X 34 and 28 X 34 > > The costs are as follows: 100 sheets of 22 X 34 is $1.53/sheet, and > 100 sheets of the 28 X 34 is $1.96/sheet. > > 250 of 22 X 34 would be $1.40/sheet, and 250 of the 28 X 34 would be > $1.53/sheet . Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Mar 6, 2010, at 12:17 AM, Harlan Chapman wrote: > Chris, > I fruitlessly searched Zowkowski as a source for the Weston to use for > Argyrotype. I'd like to find some and was hoping you could provide > more information on how to get in touch with the vendor. > Thank you very much, > Harlan > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo End of Alt-photo-process-list Digest, Vol 84, Issue 3 ***************************************************** From kthayer at pacifier.com Sat Mar 6 16:23:17 2010 From: kthayer at pacifier.com (Katharine Thayer) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 08:23:17 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: prints that leave our hands In-Reply-To: <98766a901003051357k7c1b942bx14589fbdae277ba0@mail.gmail.com> References: <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net> <98766a901003051357k7c1b942bx14589fbdae277ba0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I enjoyed these stories too. The best story I can think of on the topic of what happens to prints after they leave us: Several years ago I got a call from a stranger who had found and bought one of my gum prints in a thrift store. He happened to be interested in historic photographic processes from a collector's perspective, was very interested in learning more about how the print was made, and had gone to quite a lot of trouble to find me. I was curious how a gum print would end up in a thrift store, and after explaining the process to him, asked him to describe the print. He said it was small and brown and was of a mother sitting in a chair with small children on her lap, holding a book. Thinking over prints I'd exhibited and shown over the years, it didn't sound familiar to me. A few more details about signature and style etc convinced me that it was indeed my print, but an additional detail, an inscription "Merry Christmas" with a year date, written on the back, confused me even further. I just couldn't think what this would have been. It was several days later that I realized what the print was, and who had probably given it away. I had belonged to a small, close-knit book club for a number of years, six women who had really bonded and cared about each other. We always had a special Christmas dinner every year, and one year to show my appreciation and affection for the group, I made one of these small prints for each of them as a small Christmas gift. One member of the group was moving to another state after Christmas, and one of the women, without consulting the rest of us, had invited a new person to take her place and had invited the new person to the Christmas party to get to know us. I wanted the new person to feel welcome and part of the group, so I made her a print too, even though I didn't know her. Well, it turned out she didn't fit well with the group, didn't get along with anyone but the woman who had invited her, and in fact the club disbanded as a consequence of her abrasive personality. It wasn't just us; she rubbed a lot of people the wrong way. She ran for City Council soon after that and was trounced; I don't think she got 10% of the vote in a two-person race, which must have been especially humiliating since she had gone to the trouble of going door to door and meeting each of the thousands of people in the district. But I heard around (you hear things around, in a fairly small town) that she was especially venomous about the women in the book club, so I'm not surprised that the print I gave her as a "Welcome, and merry Christmas!" gesture ended up at a thrift store. But the good news is, it found an owner who appreciated it much more than she did, so the story has a happy ending. Long story, and not as interesting as Diana's, but just one of those small town stories. Katharine On Mar 5, 2010, at 1:57 PM, Keith Gerling wrote: > Interesting stories, Diana. Thanks for sharing! > > On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Diana Bloomfield > >> wrote: >> > > >> Hi Peter, >> >> Well, do keep us posted on what happens when the PVA sits in the >> sun or in >> the freezer. The results will be interesting. >> >> I always wonder what happens to my prints when they leave my >> hands, too-- >> but not so much from a conservation viewpoint. Some pinhole >> friends of mine >> told me, about a year ago, that they were in an "antique" store >> out in NM, >> and one of my prints was sitting up there-- all framed and >> matted-- for >> sale. Sad, but true. I have no idea who originally bought it, >> and since I >> know I didn't sell it to anyone in NM, I often wonder how it made >> its way >> out there. I hope it had a good trip. I did ask if it had held >> up (it was >> a b&w hand-tinted print, so I wondered if it was one of those I >> hadn't fixed >> long enough) :) But they said it looked great and still held up. >> They at >> least liked it enough to turn it over to see who had made it. The >> best part >> was-- the store was asking a higher price for it than I know I had >> originally put on it. So I felt good about that. Still, there it >> was-- >> sitting in some dark corner, far from its original home-- unsold. >> And then >> I went to a charity auction once, and saw a photograph hanging up >> for sale >> that I really liked. I got right up on it, and realized why I was >> so drawn >> to it. It was mine. So it seems when people decide to clean out >> their >> homes, my prints are the first to go. On the other hand, the one >> I saw also >> still looked great-- no fading and no yellowing. And since I was >> initially >> so drawn to it, at least I like to think I have a consistent >> vision. :) >> >> >> On Mar 5, 2010, at 3:06 PM, Peter Blackburn wrote: >> >> >> >>> >>> Hi Diana: >>> >>> >>> >>> Still, I have a few small swatches of papers coated with various >>> dilutions >>> of Gamblin PVA sitting in full sun, under fluorescent bulbs, and >>> even in the >>> freezer. I just want to know firsthand what might happen, >>> especially under >>> adverse conditions (as imperfect and incomplete as my testing >>> methods may >>> be), when a print leaves my hands into the hands of a buyer. I've >>> done it >>> with my pigments and paper, so this is par for the course with me. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > From clayh at clayharmon.com Sat Mar 6 16:33:20 2010 From: clayh at clayharmon.com (Clay Harmon Website) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 10:33:20 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: dichromate stain In-Reply-To: References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: There are still quite a few versions of BFK available. In fact, there is a confusing array weights and variants. For instance, Daniel Smith carries a 250gsm Rives White, and a 270gsm White, not to be confused with the 280 gsm BFK heavyweight. There is also a 175 gsm Rives Heavyweight BFK, not to be confused with the 115gsm Rives BFK lightweight, or the 180 gsm Velin Cuve Rives BFK. It is crazy-making to be sure. I like the strangely named 175gsm Rives BFK Heavyweight for pt and gum. Good wet strength and a nice strong pt print when it is acidified. Just saying Rives BFK is not terribly specific when you start digging into all the options available. And I did not even get into the super heavy versions that weigh in at 300+ gsm..... Clay On Mar 6, 2010, at 9:23 AM, Marek Matusz wrote: > > Paul, > > I did not refer to the print detail as such but to the crispness of color and color saturation achived with the same amount of gum/pigment on the two papers. Much better on the Rives BFK. It is surprising since the surface is softer with some texture. It does take a bit more concentrated PVA size. I looked around and to my surprise Rives BFK comes in only one flavor, but many colors. It is possible that what was made years ago is a different paper that is sold today. > > Marek > > > >> From: viapiano at pacbell.net >> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 18:20:18 -0800 >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: dichromate stain >> >> Marek, >> >> I find the exact opposite re FAEW and BFK...isn't that funny? >> >> The BFK I have was given to me so I don't know the exact type, weight, etc >> of the Rives but my FA gum prints are way more detailed because of the >> smoother surface. >> >> Are there different surfaces for the BFK? >> >> Paul >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From viapiano at pacbell.net Sat Mar 6 17:44:50 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 09:44:50 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: dichromate stain References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: <002201cabd54$ba9d1640$c600a8c0@dell4600> Clay... Exactly what I meant...makes your eyes glaze over! Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clay Harmon Website" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 8:33 AM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: dichromate stain > There are still quite a few versions of BFK available. In fact, there is a > confusing array weights and variants. For instance, Daniel Smith carries a > 250gsm Rives White, and a 270gsm White, not to be confused with the 280 > gsm BFK heavyweight. There is also a 175 gsm Rives Heavyweight BFK, not > to be confused with the 115gsm Rives BFK lightweight, or the 180 gsm Velin > Cuve Rives BFK. It is crazy-making to be sure. I like the strangely named > 175gsm Rives BFK Heavyweight for pt and gum. Good wet strength and a nice > strong pt print when it is acidified. > > Just saying Rives BFK is not terribly specific when you start digging into > all the options available. And I did not even get into the super heavy > versions that weigh in at 300+ gsm..... > > Clay > On Mar 6, 2010, at 9:23 AM, Marek Matusz wrote: > >> >> Paul, >> >> I did not refer to the print detail as such but to the crispness of color >> and color saturation achived with the same amount of gum/pigment on the >> two papers. Much better on the Rives BFK. It is surprising since the >> surface is softer with some texture. It does take a bit more concentrated >> PVA size. I looked around and to my surprise Rives BFK comes in only one >> flavor, but many colors. It is possible that what was made years ago is a >> different paper that is sold today. >> >> Marek >> >> >> >>> From: viapiano at pacbell.net >>> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >>> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 18:20:18 -0800 >>> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: dichromate stain >>> >>> Marek, >>> >>> I find the exact opposite re FAEW and BFK...isn't that funny? >>> >>> The BFK I have was given to me so I don't know the exact type, weight, >>> etc >>> of the Rives but my FA gum prints are way more detailed because of the >>> smoother surface. >>> >>> Are there different surfaces for the BFK? >>> >>> Paul >>> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. >> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From keith at jkschreiber.com Sat Mar 6 19:06:43 2010 From: keith at jkschreiber.com (Keith Schreiber) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 12:06:43 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BFK Rives (was Re: dichromate stain) In-Reply-To: References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: <72DB9940-5E1C-4F72-8025-F2A5FFE72184@jkschreiber.com> And be careful not to confuse Rives BFK Heavyweight/Lightweight with Rives Heavyweight/Lightweight (non-BFK). BFK, by the way, stands for Blanchet Fr?res & Kl?ber which was the name of the mill located in Rives, France. From the Arches website, here is a list of the current BFK Rives offerings. Keith jkschreiber.com On Mar 6, 2010, at 9:33 AM, Clay Harmon Website wrote: > There are still quite a few versions of BFK available. In fact, there is a confusing array weights and variants. For instance, Daniel Smith carries a 250gsm Rives White, and a 270gsm White, not to be confused with the 280 gsm BFK heavyweight. There is also a 175 gsm Rives Heavyweight BFK, not to be confused with the 115gsm Rives BFK lightweight, or the 180 gsm Velin Cuve Rives BFK. It is crazy-making to be sure. I like the strangely named 175gsm Rives BFK Heavyweight for pt and gum. Good wet strength and a nice strong pt print when it is acidified. > > Just saying Rives BFK is not terribly specific when you start digging into all the options available. And I did not even get into the super heavy versions that weigh in at 300+ gsm..... > > Clay From keith at jkschreiber.com Sat Mar 6 19:19:34 2010 From: keith at jkschreiber.com (Keith Schreiber) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 12:19:34 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BFK Rives (was Re: dichromate stain) In-Reply-To: <72DB9940-5E1C-4F72-8025-F2A5FFE72184@jkschreiber.com> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> <72DB9940-5E1C-4F72-8025-F2A5FFE72184@jkschreiber.com> Message-ID: Oops. Here is the missing link. On Mar 6, 2010, at 12:06 PM, Keith Schreiber wrote: > And be careful not to confuse Rives BFK Heavyweight/Lightweight with Rives Heavyweight/Lightweight (non-BFK). > BFK, by the way, stands for Blanchet Fr?res & Kl?ber which was the name of the mill located in Rives, France. > From the Arches website, here is a list of the current BFK Rives offerings. > > Keith > jkschreiber.com > > > On Mar 6, 2010, at 9:33 AM, Clay Harmon Website wrote: > >> There are still quite a few versions of BFK available. In fact, there is a confusing array weights and variants. For instance, Daniel Smith carries a 250gsm Rives White, and a 270gsm White, not to be confused with the 280 gsm BFK heavyweight. There is also a 175 gsm Rives Heavyweight BFK, not to be confused with the 115gsm Rives BFK lightweight, or the 180 gsm Velin Cuve Rives BFK. It is crazy-making to be sure. I like the strangely named 175gsm Rives BFK Heavyweight for pt and gum. Good wet strength and a nice strong pt print when it is acidified. >> >> Just saying Rives BFK is not terribly specific when you start digging into all the options available. And I did not even get into the super heavy versions that weigh in at 300+ gsm..... >> >> Clay > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From keith at jkschreiber.com Sat Mar 6 19:21:26 2010 From: keith at jkschreiber.com (Keith Schreiber) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 12:21:26 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BFK Rives (was Re: dichromate stain) In-Reply-To: References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> <72DB9940-5E1C-4F72-8025-F2A5FFE72184@jkschreiber.com> Message-ID: <84550D72-44BE-47B5-9C76-19CA2E694F64@jkschreiber.com> One more try ... http://www.arches-papers.com/Distributeurs/ficheProduit.php?num=152&lng=en On Mar 6, 2010, at 12:19 PM, Keith Schreiber wrote: > Oops. Here is the missing link. > > On Mar 6, 2010, at 12:06 PM, Keith Schreiber wrote: > >> And be careful not to confuse Rives BFK Heavyweight/Lightweight with Rives Heavyweight/Lightweight (non-BFK). >> BFK, by the way, stands for Blanchet Fr?res & Kl?ber which was the name of the mill located in Rives, France. >> From the Arches website, here is a list of the current BFK Rives offerings. >> >> Keith >> jkschreiber.com >> >> >> On Mar 6, 2010, at 9:33 AM, Clay Harmon Website wrote: >> >>> There are still quite a few versions of BFK available. In fact, there is a confusing array weights and variants. For instance, Daniel Smith carries a 250gsm Rives White, and a 270gsm White, not to be confused with the 280 gsm BFK heavyweight. There is also a 175 gsm Rives Heavyweight BFK, not to be confused with the 115gsm Rives BFK lightweight, or the 180 gsm Velin Cuve Rives BFK. It is crazy-making to be sure. I like the strangely named 175gsm Rives BFK Heavyweight for pt and gum. Good wet strength and a nice strong pt print when it is acidified. >>> >>> Just saying Rives BFK is not terribly specific when you start digging into all the options available. And I did not even get into the super heavy versions that weigh in at 300+ gsm..... >>> >>> Clay >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Sat Mar 6 20:29:15 2010 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 20:29:15 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: dichromate stain In-Reply-To: References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , , , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600>, , Message-ID: Clay And just to think that I was so happy with not having to make any paper choices when buying BFK. The paper that I use is 250 grams BFK Rives, white. At least I am now as confused as everybody else. Thanks Clay! Marek > From: clayh at clayharmon.com > Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 10:33:20 -0600 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: dichromate stain > > There are still quite a few versions of BFK available. In fact, there is a confusing array weights and variants. For instance, Daniel Smith carries a 250gsm Rives White, and a 270gsm White, not to be confused with the 280 gsm BFK heavyweight. There is also a 175 gsm Rives Heavyweight BFK, not to be confused with the 115gsm Rives BFK lightweight, or the 180 gsm Velin Cuve Rives BFK. It is crazy-making to be sure. I like the strangely named 175gsm Rives BFK Heavyweight for pt and gum. Good wet strength and a nice strong pt print when it is acidified. > > Just saying Rives BFK is not terribly specific when you start digging into all the options available. And I did not even get into the super heavy versions that weigh in at 300+ gsm..... > > Clay > On Mar 6, 2010, at 9:23 AM, Marek Matusz wrote: > > > > > Paul, > > > > I did not refer to the print detail as such but to the crispness of color and color saturation achived with the same amount of gum/pigment on the two papers. Much better on the Rives BFK. It is surprising since the surface is softer with some texture. It does take a bit more concentrated PVA size. I looked around and to my surprise Rives BFK comes in only one flavor, but many colors. It is possible that what was made years ago is a different paper that is sold today. > > > > Marek > > > > > > > >> From: viapiano at pacbell.net > >> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > >> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 18:20:18 -0800 > >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: dichromate stain > >> > >> Marek, > >> > >> I find the exact opposite re FAEW and BFK...isn't that funny? > >> > >> The BFK I have was given to me so I don't know the exact type, weight, etc > >> of the Rives but my FA gum prints are way more detailed because of the > >> smoother surface. > >> > >> Are there different surfaces for the BFK? > >> > >> Paul > >> > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. > > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/ From colin at colinflanarygraham.com Sat Mar 6 21:24:46 2010 From: colin at colinflanarygraham.com (colin at colinflanarygraham.com) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2010 16:24:46 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: dichromate stain Message-ID: <48570.1267910686@colinflanarygraham.com> I wonder if this is the same as the Rives 175 gsm heavy sheet? >> http://www.dickblick.com/products/rives-printmaking-papers/ >> From: clayh at clayharmon.com >> Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 10:33:20 -0600 >> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: dichromate stain >> [snip] I like the strangely named 175gsm Rives BFK Heavyweight for pt and gum. Good wet strength and a nice strong pt print when it is acidified. >> >> >> Clay From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Sat Mar 6 21:32:02 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 16:32:02 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] paper In-Reply-To: <002201cabd54$ba9d1640$c600a8c0@dell4600> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> <002201cabd54$ba9d1640$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: <9E8BF753-BD04-4B7F-BC01-E87CA32B6B02@bellsouth.net> I didn't even know Rives had a "super-heavy version" - or were you just kidding? I can never tell. I go to our local Jerry's here, and I typically buy the "Rives heavyweight BFK", at 280 gsm, which I really love. I've been buying various papers there forever, but only just discovered that if you buy 20 of any one thing (anything in the store)-- if it's at least 20 of the exact same thing of whatever it is you're buying (like 20 bottles of Gamblin PVA for instance)-- you get a 20% discount. I was stunned. I guess I've always bought less paper than that at any one time, but recently, I bought 20 at one shot-- so I found out about this discount. They said they'd always offered that (only in the store, I gather, not online)-- a well-kept secret. But that extra discount on already discounted paper there sure seems like a real bargain to me. And I really like working with it-- seems to work really well for gum-printing. Diana On Mar 6, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > Clay... > > Exactly what I meant...makes your eyes glaze over! > > Paul > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clay Harmon Website" > > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" > > Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 8:33 AM > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: dichromate stain > > >> There are still quite a few versions of BFK available. In fact, >> there is a confusing array weights and variants. For instance, >> Daniel Smith carries a 250gsm Rives White, and a 270gsm White, not >> to be confused with the 280 gsm BFK heavyweight. There is also a >> 175 gsm Rives Heavyweight BFK, not to be confused with the 115gsm >> Rives BFK lightweight, or the 180 gsm Velin Cuve Rives BFK. It is >> crazy-making to be sure. I like the strangely named 175gsm Rives >> BFK Heavyweight for pt and gum. Good wet strength and a nice >> strong pt print when it is acidified. >> >> Just saying Rives BFK is not terribly specific when you start >> digging into all the options available. And I did not even get into >> the super heavy versions that weigh in at 300+ gsm..... >> >> Clay >> From clayh at clayharmon.com Sat Mar 6 21:46:01 2010 From: clayh at clayharmon.com (Clay Harmon Website) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 15:46:01 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: dichromate stain In-Reply-To: References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , , , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600>, , Message-ID: <7CE39DB6-B176-4089-8FAC-590054C8DBAA@clayharmon.com> Well, the good news is that they all tend to print in a similar way. In my experience, techniques developed on 250gsm Rives BFK will work about the same on the 175gsm Rives BFK Heavyweight, or is that the Rives Heavyweight BFK? You have to laugh. On Mar 6, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > > Clay > > And just to think that I was so happy with not having to make any paper choices when buying BFK. The paper that I use is 250 grams BFK Rives, white. > At least I am now as confused as everybody else. Thanks Clay! > > > > Marek > > >> From: clayh at clayharmon.com >> Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 10:33:20 -0600 >> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: dichromate stain >> >> There are still quite a few versions of BFK available. In fact, there is a confusing array weights and variants. For instance, Daniel Smith carries a 250gsm Rives White, and a 270gsm White, not to be confused with the 280 gsm BFK heavyweight. There is also a 175 gsm Rives Heavyweight BFK, not to be confused with the 115gsm Rives BFK lightweight, or the 180 gsm Velin Cuve Rives BFK. It is crazy-making to be sure. I like the strangely named 175gsm Rives BFK Heavyweight for pt and gum. Good wet strength and a nice strong pt print when it is acidified. >> >> Just saying Rives BFK is not terribly specific when you start digging into all the options available. And I did not even get into the super heavy versions that weigh in at 300+ gsm..... >> >> Clay >> On Mar 6, 2010, at 9:23 AM, Marek Matusz wrote: >> >>> >>> Paul, >>> >>> I did not refer to the print detail as such but to the crispness of color and color saturation achived with the same amount of gum/pigment on the two papers. Much better on the Rives BFK. It is surprising since the surface is softer with some texture. It does take a bit more concentrated PVA size. I looked around and to my surprise Rives BFK comes in only one flavor, but many colors. It is possible that what was made years ago is a different paper that is sold today. >>> >>> Marek >>> >>> >>> >>>> From: viapiano at pacbell.net >>>> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >>>> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 18:20:18 -0800 >>>> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: dichromate stain >>>> >>>> Marek, >>>> >>>> I find the exact opposite re FAEW and BFK...isn't that funny? >>>> >>>> The BFK I have was given to me so I don't know the exact type, weight, etc >>>> of the Rives but my FA gum prints are way more detailed because of the >>>> smoother surface. >>>> >>>> Are there different surfaces for the BFK? >>>> >>>> Paul >>>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. >>> http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. > http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From clayh at clayharmon.com Sat Mar 6 22:06:40 2010 From: clayh at clayharmon.com (Clay Harmon Website) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 16:06:40 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: paper In-Reply-To: <9E8BF753-BD04-4B7F-BC01-E87CA32B6B02@bellsouth.net> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> <002201cabd54$ba9d1640$c600a8c0@dell4600> <9E8BF753-BD04-4B7F-BC01-E87CA32B6B02@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: No kidding. At least that was true a few years ago. I tried some, and if memory serves it was a 600gsm paper. Almost cardboard. I am not sure if they still make it. Nutty how confusing it can all get. Sort of like George Foreman (the retired heavyweight boxer and grill maven) naming five of his sons "George Edward Foreman": there is Jr, III, IV, V and VI. No joke. On Mar 6, 2010, at 3:32 PM, Diana Bloomfield wrote: > I didn't even know Rives had a "super-heavy version" - or were you just kidding? I can never tell. > > I go to our local Jerry's here, and I typically buy the "Rives heavyweight BFK", at 280 gsm, which I really love. I've been buying various papers there forever, but only just discovered that if you buy 20 of any one thing (anything in the store)-- if it's at least 20 of the exact same thing of whatever it is you're buying (like 20 bottles of Gamblin PVA for instance)-- you get a 20% discount. I was stunned. I guess I've always bought less paper than that at any one time, but recently, I bought 20 at one shot-- so I found out about this discount. They said they'd always offered that (only in the store, I gather, not online)-- a well-kept secret. But that extra discount on already discounted paper there sure seems like a real bargain to me. And I really like working with it-- seems to work really well for gum-printing. > > Diana > On Mar 6, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > >> Clay... >> >> Exactly what I meant...makes your eyes glaze over! >> >> Paul >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clay Harmon Website" >> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" >> Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 8:33 AM >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: dichromate stain >> >> >>> There are still quite a few versions of BFK available. In fact, there is a confusing array weights and variants. For instance, Daniel Smith carries a 250gsm Rives White, and a 270gsm White, not to be confused with the 280 gsm BFK heavyweight. There is also a 175 gsm Rives Heavyweight BFK, not to be confused with the 115gsm Rives BFK lightweight, or the 180 gsm Velin Cuve Rives BFK. It is crazy-making to be sure. I like the strangely named 175gsm Rives BFK Heavyweight for pt and gum. Good wet strength and a nice strong pt print when it is acidified. >>> >>> Just saying Rives BFK is not terribly specific when you start digging into all the options available. And I did not even get into the super heavy versions that weigh in at 300+ gsm..... >>> >>> Clay >>> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Sat Mar 6 22:25:09 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 17:25:09 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: paper In-Reply-To: References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> <002201cabd54$ba9d1640$c600a8c0@dell4600> <9E8BF753-BD04-4B7F-BC01-E87CA32B6B02@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: Oh, that would be interesting to try if it was actually available. I never used Fabriano EW much, but I did use the 300 lb Fabriano a few times-- and I have to admit, I loved how I never had to worry about any long and repeated water soaks, paper creases, or tearing-- seemingly indestructible stuff. Everything seemed to print really sharp on it, too. I liked it for that reason, but to actually attempt to cut it in smaller pieces required some serious upper body weight training, so I gave up on that. I don't even know where to begin with George Forman and his sons. :) Diana On Mar 6, 2010, at 5:06 PM, Clay Harmon Website wrote: > No kidding. At least that was true a few years ago. I tried some, > and if memory serves it was a 600gsm paper. Almost cardboard. > > I am not sure if they still make it. > > Nutty how confusing it can all get. > > Sort of like George Foreman (the retired heavyweight boxer and grill > maven) naming five of his sons "George Edward Foreman": there is Jr, > III, IV, V and VI. No joke. > > > On Mar 6, 2010, at 3:32 PM, Diana Bloomfield wrote: > >> I didn't even know Rives had a "super-heavy version" - or were you >> just kidding? I can never tell. >> >> I go to our local Jerry's here, and I typically buy the "Rives >> heavyweight BFK", at 280 gsm, which I really love. I've been >> buying various papers there forever, but only just discovered that >> if you buy 20 of any one thing (anything in the store)-- if it's at >> least 20 of the exact same thing of whatever it is you're buying >> (like 20 bottles of Gamblin PVA for instance)-- you get a 20% >> discount. I was stunned. I guess I've always bought less paper >> than that at any one time, but recently, I bought 20 at one shot-- >> so I found out about this discount. They said they'd always >> offered that (only in the store, I gather, not online)-- a well- >> kept secret. But that extra discount on already discounted paper >> there sure seems like a real bargain to me. And I really like >> working with it-- seems to work really well for gum-printing. >> >> Diana >> On Mar 6, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Paul Viapiano wrote: >> >>> Clay... >>> >>> Exactly what I meant...makes your eyes glaze over! >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clay Harmon Website" >> > >>> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" >> > >>> Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 8:33 AM >>> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: dichromate stain >>> >>> >>>> There are still quite a few versions of BFK available. In fact, >>>> there is a confusing array weights and variants. For instance, >>>> Daniel Smith carries a 250gsm Rives White, and a 270gsm White, >>>> not to be confused with the 280 gsm BFK heavyweight. There is >>>> also a 175 gsm Rives Heavyweight BFK, not to be confused with >>>> the 115gsm Rives BFK lightweight, or the 180 gsm Velin Cuve Rives >>>> BFK. It is crazy-making to be sure. I like the strangely named >>>> 175gsm Rives BFK Heavyweight for pt and gum. Good wet strength >>>> and a nice strong pt print when it is acidified. >>>> >>>> Just saying Rives BFK is not terribly specific when you start >>>> digging into all the options available. And I did not even get >>>> into the super heavy versions that weigh in at 300+ gsm..... >>>> >>>> Clay >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Sat Mar 6 22:40:45 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 17:40:45 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] greetings from SPE Message-ID: Dear All, Update on SPE since 596 aren't here... How fun! Mark Nelson (photopolymer indistinguishable from pt/pd), Gayle Stevens (wet plate collodion in a Holga), Connie Begg (wet plate Holga 4x5), Francis Schanberger (VDB), Hans Klemmer (haven't seen your work, Hans!) and a U Arts booth with Sarah Van Keuren, Scott McMahon, Sandra Davis, lunch today with Kay Kenny who's been doing gum since the 70's and whose work is in Antiquarian Avant Garde...Bostick and Sullivan and Dana at the trade show who did a practicum on pt/pd and diginegs....fun alt stuff going on at SPE despite the prevalence of large digiworks. I feel...good! And alt is alive and well. I cannot tell you how many people/educators asked me about alt these last couple days. We also had dinner with Yasu who is the Pictorico rep. Hilarious guy. He is Japanese, but astute cultural sizer-upper (don't know how long he has lived in NY) and was better able to do a bottom line cultural read in two seconds on some stuff than most people. He hit the nail on the head a number of times with his comments. I am MOST proud of my student Stephanie Obernesser who showed her gum prints at a portfolio review and the person doing the review BOUGHT one of them off of her right then and there for their collection at their university, saying it was the most beautifully tonal gum print they had seen. For $500 even! That was way cool, and validated alt to my students, 7 of whom made the trek all the way from Montana (and several graduated ones here, too). Always bucking the trend tho--can't say my portfolio review was quite so overwhelmingly positive...but good constructive points nevertheless. At least the reviewer didn't say as, if I remember correctly, Diana (?) said her friend was told "Your work is so bad I don't want to waste breath telling you why." I bought Kay Kenny's book on her gum prints right out of her purse...she was doing gum prints back when Judy was and knows of you, Judy. But alas, I have to also say the flip side, that the conference jury did not select my talk on alt EVEN with Christopher James and Sandra Davis on the panel...so always the good with the bad trying to spread the alt gospel. But it is impt. to keep on trying. And WHY, I ask, WHY, do people who give lectures read from their notes? This is prevalent in academics and CAA. I feel like, if you can't talk off the cuff and with fervor, don't give a lecture! Dry is NOT inspiring. Oh well! i'll probably get my head chopped off for saying this, but I know I am not the only one bored to tears at times with this practice. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com From stratton at sunlink.net Sun Mar 7 00:31:58 2010 From: stratton at sunlink.net (Chris & Nancy Stratton) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 19:31:58 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Fabriano Artistico 300 gsm - for Cyanotype In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100306193158.4d87242a.stratton@sunlink.net> Someone mentioned a concern for the alkaline buffer which might be added to this paper. As I've just come across a supply of the paper, I wonder if there might be some sort of citric acid or other 'therapy' recommended in using this for cyanotype (Mike Ware's process)? Thanks in advance! Chris -- Chris & Nancy Stratton From steelbar at shaw.ca Sun Mar 7 00:57:39 2010 From: steelbar at shaw.ca (Bruce) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 16:57:39 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Visiting Paris Belgium Luxembourg and Netherlands Message-ID: <81BD58B6-5A06-41D8-8FDC-DC8DBA2AC07E@shaw.ca> Hi All I have just booked a flight to Paris in July and from there we will go on to Luxembourg, Belgium and Netherlands. Does anyone have some suggestions of must see Alt photo galleries or events in this area. We will be in Paris the first week of July and than work our way up to Amsterdam and leave at the end of the month. Thanks for any suggestions. Cheers Bruce From rhemaangel at gmail.com Sun Mar 7 01:02:41 2010 From: rhemaangel at gmail.com (S Makeham) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 09:02:41 +0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: =?utf-8?b?UFZBIGZvciBTSVpFICYgR1VNID/igI8=?= In-Reply-To: <725fa8581003060205tc8fe7c6web64f1038711915b@mail.gmail.com> References: <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net> <66575de71003051928x13ed211fs15985f750376e721@mail.gmail.com> <725fa8581003060146x4a4c3e68kfc8be9c20cbcd4eb@mail.gmail.com> <725fa8581003060205tc8fe7c6web64f1038711915b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: G'Day Y'All!!! I have been watching this thread with interest. Gamblin Size is not readily available here in Australia, at least not here in Perth (unless someone knows something I don't -- always a possibility). Seems to me, the major thing to consider would be the acid-free archivalness of a PVA product. The white wood glues here WILL yellow down to a honey pine colour over time. I did find one readily available glue here used in scrapbooking that would seem to tick all the boxes photographically -- http://www.helmar.com.au/products/all_products/acid_free_glue/ . It's also availble in the shops here at a reasonable cost. I'm gathering from previous posts that included correspondence from Gamblin that their product is just a thinned-down glue. I can do that. ;o) I do know that not all PVA glues are created equally, so I'm guessing that one that's created specifically for photos/scrapbooking might be the way to go. Brands are going to come & go, so I guess it's a case of being flexible in what brand to use. Just my 5cents worth. Sally Makeham http://www.snmakeham.com From gws1 at columbia.edu Sun Mar 7 01:14:02 2010 From: gws1 at columbia.edu (Greg Schmitz) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2010 16:14:02 -0900 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: =?utf-8?b?UFZBIGZvciBTSVpFICYgR1VNID/igI8=?= In-Reply-To: References: <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net> <66575de71003051928x13ed211fs15985f750376e721@mail.gmail.com> <725fa8581003060146x4a4c3e68kfc8be9c20cbcd4eb@mail.gmail.com> <725fa8581003060205tc8fe7c6web64f1038711915b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B92FDDA.4060709@columbia.edu> Sally, You might want to try some of the suppliers listed here: http://www.slv.vic.gov.au/services/conservation/guides/suppliers.html http://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/about/collections/preservation/suppliers.html As has been mentioned PVA emulsion is commonly used by book and paper conservators. --greg On 3/6/10 4:02 PM, S Makeham wrote: > G'Day Y'All!!! > > I have been watching this thread with interest. Gamblin Size is not > readily available here in Australia, at least not here in Perth > (unless someone knows something I don't -- always a possibility). > Seems to me, the major thing to consider would be the acid-free > archivalness of a PVA product. The white wood glues here WILL yellow > down to a honey pine colour over time. > > I did find one readily available glue here used in scrapbooking that > would seem to tick all the boxes photographically -- > http://www.helmar.com.au/products/all_products/acid_free_glue/ . It's > also availble in the shops here at a reasonable cost. I'm gathering > from previous posts that included correspondence from Gamblin that > their product is just a thinned-down glue. I can do that. ;o) I do > know that not all PVA glues are created equally, so I'm guessing that > one that's created specifically for photos/scrapbooking might be the > way to go. Brands are going to come& go, so I guess it's a case of > being flexible in what brand to use. > > Just my 5cents worth. > > > Sally Makeham > http://www.snmakeham.com > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > From mineurdecharbon at skynet.be Sun Mar 7 07:31:07 2010 From: mineurdecharbon at skynet.be (Philippe Berger) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 08:31:07 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Visiting Paris Belgium Luxembourg and Netherlands References: <81BD58B6-5A06-41D8-8FDC-DC8DBA2AC07E@shaw.ca> Message-ID: If your visit Belgium, your are good visit my home of the Carbon Philippe ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce" To: Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 1:57 AM Subject: [alt-photo] Visiting Paris Belgium Luxembourg and Netherlands > Hi All > I have just booked a flight to Paris in July and from there we will go on > to Luxembourg, Belgium and Netherlands. Does anyone have some suggestions > of must see Alt photo galleries or events in this area. We will be in > Paris the first week of July and than work our way up to Amsterdam and > leave at the end of the month. > Thanks for any suggestions. > Cheers > Bruce > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 4921 (20100306) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > From mail at loris.medici.name Sun Mar 7 10:43:26 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 12:43:26 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Fabriano Artistico 300 gsm - for Cyanotype In-Reply-To: <20100306193158.4d87242a.stratton@sunlink.net> References: <20100306193158.4d87242a.stratton@sunlink.net> Message-ID: <725fa8581003070243sa27e717t6ece0d18c6d71e42@mail.gmail.com> Treating it with dilute (something around 2-5%, better to stay on the low side...) hydrochloric (HCl), acetic or oxalic acid (and a good rinse/wash later) will make it work with trad. cyanotype (and new cyanotype). I tread my Artistico with HCl, for about two minutes (or slightly longer - until I see no bubbles and the fizzing sound stops), flipping the paper halfway. I then wash the paper for 30 minutes, changing water every 5 minutes. It gives me very strong blacks and very little bleeding (paper absorbs the sensitizer very successfully) with trad. cyanotype. I like it very much because I can readily find it locally for relatively good prices and it's a perfect paper for gumovers. Haven't tried to neutralize it with citric acid, but probably it will work too. As I said before I much prefer HCl for the job. See the list archives (located in three different places, let me know if you need the web addresses...) for more information. Hope this helps, Loris. 2010/3/7 Chris & Nancy Stratton : > Someone mentioned a concern for the alkaline buffer which might be added to this paper. As I've just come across a supply of the paper, I wonder if there might be some sort of citric acid or other 'therapy' recommended in using this for cyanotype (Mike Ware's process)? > > Thanks in advance! > > Chris > -- > Chris & Nancy Stratton > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From trevor at chalkjockeys.com Sun Mar 7 13:37:08 2010 From: trevor at chalkjockeys.com (Trevor Cunningham) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 16:37:08 +0300 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: paper (tangent) In-Reply-To: <9E8BF753-BD04-4B7F-BC01-E87CA32B6B02@bellsouth.net> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> <002201cabd54$ba9d1640$c600a8c0@dell4600> <9E8BF753-BD04-4B7F-BC01-E87CA32B6B02@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4B93AC04.5070001@chalkjockeys.com> Is there any correlation between paper weight and shrinkage? Diana Bloomfield wrote: > I didn't even know Rives had a "super-heavy version" - or were you > just kidding? I can never tell. > > I go to our local Jerry's here, and I typically buy the "Rives > heavyweight BFK", at 280 gsm, which I really love. I've been buying > various papers there forever, but only just discovered that if you buy > 20 of any one thing (anything in the store)-- if it's at least 20 of > the exact same thing of whatever it is you're buying (like 20 bottles > of Gamblin PVA for instance)-- you get a 20% discount. I was > stunned. I guess I've always bought less paper than that at any one > time, but recently, I bought 20 at one shot-- so I found out about > this discount. They said they'd always offered that (only in the > store, I gather, not online)-- a well-kept secret. But that extra > discount on already discounted paper there sure seems like a real > bargain to me. And I really like working with it-- seems to work > really well for gum-printing. > > Diana > On Mar 6, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > >> Clay... >> >> Exactly what I meant...makes your eyes glaze over! >> >> Paul >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clay Harmon Website" >> >> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" >> >> Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 8:33 AM >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: dichromate stain >> >> >>> There are still quite a few versions of BFK available. In fact, >>> there is a confusing array weights and variants. For instance, >>> Daniel Smith carries a 250gsm Rives White, and a 270gsm White, not >>> to be confused with the 280 gsm BFK heavyweight. There is also a >>> 175 gsm Rives Heavyweight BFK, not to be confused with the 115gsm >>> Rives BFK lightweight, or the 180 gsm Velin Cuve Rives BFK. It is >>> crazy-making to be sure. I like the strangely named 175gsm Rives >>> BFK Heavyweight for pt and gum. Good wet strength and a nice strong >>> pt print when it is acidified. >>> >>> Just saying Rives BFK is not terribly specific when you start >>> digging into all the options available. And I did not even get into >>> the super heavy versions that weigh in at 300+ gsm..... >>> >>> Clay >>> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From clayh at clayharmon.com Sun Mar 7 13:48:43 2010 From: clayh at clayharmon.com (Clay Harmon Website) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 07:48:43 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: paper (tangent) In-Reply-To: <4B93AC04.5070001@chalkjockeys.com> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> <002201cabd54$ba9d1640$c600a8c0@dell4600> <9E8BF753-BD04-4B7F-BC01-E87CA32B6B02@bellsouth.net> <4B93AC04.5070001@chalkjockeys.com> Message-ID: <93CFE77E-B858-477C-9B71-251AE0055B79@clayharmon.com> In my experience, the 280gsm and the 175gsm BFK have similar dimensional stability. They both shrink slightly and proportionally. For gumovers, I don't add an extra shrinkage step. Since I acidify the paper for the initial pt/pd step, that brief soak seems to be enough. Clay On Mar 7, 2010, at 7:37 AM, Trevor Cunningham wrote: > Is there any correlation between paper weight and shrinkage? > > Diana Bloomfield wrote: >> I didn't even know Rives had a "super-heavy version" - or were you just kidding? I can never tell. >> >> I go to our local Jerry's here, and I typically buy the "Rives heavyweight BFK", at 280 gsm, which I really love. I've been buying various papers there forever, but only just discovered that if you buy 20 of any one thing (anything in the store)-- if it's at least 20 of the exact same thing of whatever it is you're buying (like 20 bottles of Gamblin PVA for instance)-- you get a 20% discount. I was stunned. I guess I've always bought less paper than that at any one time, but recently, I bought 20 at one shot-- so I found out about this discount. They said they'd always offered that (only in the store, I gather, not online)-- a well-kept secret. But that extra discount on already discounted paper there sure seems like a real bargain to me. And I really like working with it-- seems to work really well for gum-printing. >> >> Diana >> On Mar 6, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Paul Viapiano wrote: >> >>> Clay... >>> >>> Exactly what I meant...makes your eyes glaze over! >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clay Harmon Website" >>> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" >>> Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 8:33 AM >>> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: dichromate stain >>> >>> >>>> There are still quite a few versions of BFK available. In fact, there is a confusing array weights and variants. For instance, Daniel Smith carries a 250gsm Rives White, and a 270gsm White, not to be confused with the 280 gsm BFK heavyweight. There is also a 175 gsm Rives Heavyweight BFK, not to be confused with the 115gsm Rives BFK lightweight, or the 180 gsm Velin Cuve Rives BFK. It is crazy-making to be sure. I like the strangely named 175gsm Rives BFK Heavyweight for pt and gum. Good wet strength and a nice strong pt print when it is acidified. >>>> >>>> Just saying Rives BFK is not terribly specific when you start digging into all the options available. And I did not even get into the super heavy versions that weigh in at 300+ gsm..... >>>> >>>> Clay >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From jon at intaglioeditions.com Sun Mar 7 21:40:47 2010 From: jon at intaglioeditions.com (Jon Lybrook) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 14:40:47 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: greetings from SPE In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B941D5F.2040603@intaglioeditions.com> Hi Christina, Thanks for the great report. Were you (or anyone else) able to venture outside SPE and see much of the city-wide Philagraphika fine art printmaking exhibitions? I'm going to be in Philly in early April and would be interested to hear if there are any smaller, must-see shows I should go to while there, besides the biggest ones such as at the Philadelphia Art Museum, Temple Gallery, Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts, etc. See http://www.philagrafika2010.org/ Thanks! Jon Christina Anderson wrote: > Dear All, > > Update on SPE since 596 aren't here... > -- Jon Lybrook Intaglio Editions http://intaglioeditions.com 303-818-5187 From donsbryant at gmail.com Sun Mar 7 23:37:25 2010 From: donsbryant at gmail.com (Don Bryant) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 18:37:25 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Stephanie Obernesser - Kay Kenny In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I am MOST proud of my student Stephanie Obernesser who showed her gum prints at a portfolio review and the person doing the review BOUGHT one of them off of her right then and there for their collection at their university, saying it was the most beautifully tonal gum print they had seen. For $500 even! > http://www.stephanieobernesser.com/half-life/ > I bought Kay Kenny's book on her gum prints right out of her purse... > http://www.kaykenny.com/ From ercdraper at gmail.com Mon Mar 8 00:17:06 2010 From: ercdraper at gmail.com (Edward Draper) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 00:17:06 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Alternative Processes Exhibition in London, England Message-ID: Dear All It is with great pleasure that I invite you all to an exciting exhibition due to start in a few weeks It starts on 25th March and runs for two months - until 23rd May If anyone is planning on going, please contact me first and I will see if I can get along at the same time For those who cannot make it, here is my Flickr address that gives a feel for the images Each image is printed on 760mm by 560mm Saunders Waterford paper - the internet cannot do it justice http://www.flickr.com/photos/gumprintme/ Look forward to seeing you Or hearing all your comments Edward President Richmond and Twickenham Photographic Society and mad-keen gum printer From amyhgeorge at hotmail.com Mon Mar 8 00:19:06 2010 From: amyhgeorge at hotmail.com (Amy Holmes George) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 19:19:06 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Update: Vertical Banding in Prints Produced from Digital Negatives Message-ID: Whew, I am no longer seeing stripes! Here's a follow-up on my recent encounter with the "Venetian Blind Effect" while making pt/pd prints from digital negatives on an Epson 3800. If you happen to experience this strange vertical banding of dark/light/dark/light?especially in high value areas of your prints?here's a few things to consider: 1. Set the Paper Thickness to 6 (Pictorico Ultra Premium OHP Transparency Film is 5.7 mil, but the default for Premium Photo Paper Glossy is 3 mil) 2. Set the Platen Gap to Standard (instead of Auto) 3. Change the Paper Feed Adjustment by increments of -5 until the vertical banding disappears (for me, the magic number was -30) OK, now back to printing . . . Amy Holmes George _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469228/direct/01/ From pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca Mon Mar 8 02:32:50 2010 From: pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca (pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca) Date: Sun, 07 Mar 2010 21:32:50 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: PVA for SIZE & GUM ??+MSDS mystery broken In-Reply-To: References: <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net> <66575de71003051928x13ed211fs15985f750376e721@mail.gmail.com> <000c01cabce0$2d22ec00$8768c400$@com> <4B91E38A.20805@columbia.edu> <4B91E52F.1080205@columbia.edu> Message-ID: Joseph's link to the MSDS is a great help. The MSDS provides valuable insight. From that, it is stated as being an Ethylene/Vinyl Acetate Copolymer. This is a different animal than many of the acid free PVAs we may find at the art store which are usually just PolyVinyl acetate. They lack water resistance and that is good for book binding so the work can be reversed with water/steam if need be.The Ethylene makes it much more water resistant, improves adhesion, and increases flexibility. This all makes sense to me. I tried a white wood glue once (Elmers brand) and it did a very bad job, as water was slowly absorbed by it and the paper went limp. What we have in the Gamblin size is what is called VAE or Vinyl Acetate Ethylene Copolymer. The higher flexibility allows it to flex with fabric and water resistance is much better. Bottom line is: you may get lucky to find a similar performing off the shelf "white glue" as size but it seems like a real crap shoot. Most will fail the water resistance requirement. A good summary can be found on page 4 (second last paragraph on the right column) of the book: Solvent-free adhesives By T.E. Rolando Google books link is: http://books.google.ca/books?id=f7B7rsF3jOYC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=&f=false scroll down to page 4 Hope this helps Peter Friedrichsen At 08:32 AM 03/06/2010, you wrote: >The link to Gamblin's MSDS for their PVA size can be found on this page: > >http://www.gamblincolors.com/sizes.grounds/index.html > >Joe >_______________________________________________ >Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Mon Mar 8 03:01:03 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 22:01:03 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Stephanie Obernesser - Kay Kenny In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EED92B3-9B7D-4715-A184-646D7E32F587@montana.net> Don, You are SUCH the web surfer! Thanks. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Mar 7, 2010, at 6:37 PM, Don Bryant wrote: > >> > I am MOST proud of my student Stephanie Obernesser who showed her gum prints > at a portfolio review and the person doing the review BOUGHT one of them off > of her right then and there for their collection at their university, saying > it was the most beautifully tonal gum print they had seen. For $500 even! >> > > http://www.stephanieobernesser.com/half-life/ > >> > I bought Kay Kenny's book on her gum prints right out of her purse... >> > > http://www.kaykenny.com/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Mon Mar 8 03:06:47 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 22:06:47 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: greetings from SPE In-Reply-To: <4B941D5F.2040603@intaglioeditions.com> References: <4B941D5F.2040603@intaglioeditions.com> Message-ID: Jon, Unfortunately no. While here I have 36 hours of board responsibilities so no rest for the wicked...or is it weary...No art galleries, no museums, didn't even get to go to the Mutter, though I may get to see U Arts on Tuesday. Philly looks like it has loads to offer, though. Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Mar 7, 2010, at 4:40 PM, Jon Lybrook wrote: > Thanks for the great report. Were you (or anyone else) able to venture outside SPE and see much of the city-wide Philagraphika fine art printmaking exhibitions? I'm going to be in Philly in early April and would be interested to hear if there are any smaller, must-see shows I should go to while there, besides the biggest ones such as at the Philadelphia Art Museum, Temple Gallery, Pennsylvania Academy of the Fine Arts, etc. > See http://www.philagrafika2010.org/ > Thanks! > Jon From jseigel at panix.com Mon Mar 8 03:07:46 2010 From: jseigel at panix.com (Judy Seigel) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 22:07:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: prints that leave our hands In-Reply-To: References: , , <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net>, , Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Mar 2010, Diana Bloomfield wrote: cut > .... Some pinhole friends of mine told > me, about a year ago, that they were in an "antique" store out in NM, and one > of my prints was sitting up there-- all framed and matted-- for sale. Sad, > but true. CUT... > So it seems when people decide to clean out their homes, my prints are > the first to go. Actually, Diane.... you get "A" for art, but "F" for logic: What makes you think yours was "first to go"? More likely, it seems to me, last. It was still in fine shape, so probably not hanging around for long (and lovingly cared for til then). Judy From zphoto at montana.net Mon Mar 8 03:08:02 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 22:08:02 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Stephanie Obernesser - Kay Kenny In-Reply-To: <3EED92B3-9B7D-4715-A184-646D7E32F587@montana.net> References: <3EED92B3-9B7D-4715-A184-646D7E32F587@montana.net> Message-ID: <1A85DCC9-89AF-4614-8150-B323A4C6E06D@montana.net> Speaking of which, Don, the next SPE conference is in Atlanta! March 10-13 I think it is, so I'll get to see you! A guy named Michael Marshall at University of Georgia Athens is heading it up. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Mar 7, 2010, at 10:01 PM, Christina Anderson wrote: > Don, > You are SUCH the web surfer! > Thanks. > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 6:37 PM, Don Bryant wrote: > >> >>> >> I am MOST proud of my student Stephanie Obernesser who showed her gum prints >> at a portfolio review and the person doing the review BOUGHT one of them off >> of her right then and there for their collection at their university, saying >> it was the most beautifully tonal gum print they had seen. For $500 even! >>> >> >> http://www.stephanieobernesser.com/half-life/ >> >>> >> I bought Kay Kenny's book on her gum prints right out of her purse... >>> >> >> http://www.kaykenny.com/ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From jseigel at panix.com Mon Mar 8 03:17:21 2010 From: jseigel at panix.com (Judy Seigel) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 22:17:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: paper In-Reply-To: <9E8BF753-BD04-4B7F-BC01-E87CA32B6B02@bellsouth.net> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> <002201cabd54$ba9d1640$c600a8c0@dell4600> <9E8BF753-BD04-4B7F-BC01-E87CA32B6B02@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Mar 2010, Diana Bloomfield wrote: > I go to our local Jerry's here, and I typically buy the "Rives heavyweight > BFK", at 280 gsm, which I really love. Diana... Where is "here" !? J, From trevor at chalkjockeys.com Mon Mar 8 03:24:24 2010 From: trevor at chalkjockeys.com (Trevor Cunningham) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 06:24:24 +0300 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: paper In-Reply-To: <9E8BF753-BD04-4B7F-BC01-E87CA32B6B02@bellsouth.net> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> <002201cabd54$ba9d1640$c600a8c0@dell4600> <9E8BF753-BD04-4B7F-BC01-E87CA32B6B02@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4B946DE8.2030907@chalkjockeys.com> Is that the one at atlantic and 440? Diana Bloomfield wrote: > I didn't even know Rives had a "super-heavy version" - or were you > just kidding? I can never tell. > > I go to our local Jerry's here, and I typically buy the "Rives > heavyweight BFK", at 280 gsm, which I really love. I've been buying > various papers there forever, but only just discovered that if you buy > 20 of any one thing (anything in the store)-- if it's at least 20 of > the exact same thing of whatever it is you're buying (like 20 bottles > of Gamblin PVA for instance)-- you get a 20% discount. I was > stunned. I guess I've always bought less paper than that at any one > time, but recently, I bought 20 at one shot-- so I found out about > this discount. They said they'd always offered that (only in the > store, I gather, not online)-- a well-kept secret. But that extra > discount on already discounted paper there sure seems like a real > bargain to me. And I really like working with it-- seems to work > really well for gum-printing. > > Diana > On Mar 6, 2010, at 12:44 PM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > >> Clay... >> >> Exactly what I meant...makes your eyes glaze over! >> >> Paul >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clay Harmon Website" >> >> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" >> >> Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 8:33 AM >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: dichromate stain >> >> >>> There are still quite a few versions of BFK available. In fact, >>> there is a confusing array weights and variants. For instance, >>> Daniel Smith carries a 250gsm Rives White, and a 270gsm White, not >>> to be confused with the 280 gsm BFK heavyweight. There is also a >>> 175 gsm Rives Heavyweight BFK, not to be confused with the 115gsm >>> Rives BFK lightweight, or the 180 gsm Velin Cuve Rives BFK. It is >>> crazy-making to be sure. I like the strangely named 175gsm Rives >>> BFK Heavyweight for pt and gum. Good wet strength and a nice strong >>> pt print when it is acidified. >>> >>> Just saying Rives BFK is not terribly specific when you start >>> digging into all the options available. And I did not even get into >>> the super heavy versions that weigh in at 300+ gsm..... >>> >>> Clay >>> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 8 03:35:00 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 22:35:00 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: paper In-Reply-To: References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> <002201cabd54$ba9d1640$c600a8c0@dell4600> <9E8BF753-BD04-4B7F-BC01-E87CA32B6B02@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <026E18B7-8C89-41A8-85B9-D69CB9B59BD8@bellsouth.net> Hi Judy, Sorry-- Jerry's has only about 15 or so stores across the country. The one that's "here" is in Raleigh, NC. Diana On Mar 7, 2010, at 10:17 PM, Judy Seigel wrote: > > On Sat, 6 Mar 2010, Diana Bloomfield wrote: > >> I go to our local Jerry's here, and I typically buy the "Rives >> heavyweight BFK", at 280 gsm, which I really love. > > Diana... Where is "here" !? > > J, > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 8 03:42:55 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 22:42:55 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: paper In-Reply-To: <4B946DE8.2030907@chalkjockeys.com> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> <002201cabd54$ba9d1640$c600a8c0@dell4600> <9E8BF753-BD04-4B7F-BC01-E87CA32B6B02@bellsouth.net> <4B946DE8.2030907@chalkjockeys.com> Message-ID: <5ABEC2A7-67FC-496F-877C-058E4E5043EB@bellsouth.net> Hi Trevor, It's Wake Forest Road-- parallel to Atlantic---but also (almost) right at 440. Diana On Mar 7, 2010, at 10:24 PM, Trevor Cunningham wrote: > Is that the one at atlantic and 440? > From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 8 03:53:22 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 22:53:22 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: prints that leave our hands In-Reply-To: References: , , <2E85477A-BF75-496F-971E-FDA52C43D164@bellsouth.net>, , Message-ID: <3A0C83FB-D8D5-46E6-9089-B382AF07B281@bellsouth.net> Thanks, Judy. I'll try to keep that in mind. :) > > Actually, Diane.... you get "A" for art, but "F" for logic: What > makes you think yours was "first to go"? More likely, it seems to > me, last. It was still in fine shape, so probably not hanging around > for long (and lovingly cared for til then). > > Judy > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From stratton at sunlink.net Mon Mar 8 03:57:11 2010 From: stratton at sunlink.net (Chris & Nancy Stratton) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 22:57:11 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Fabriano Artistico 300 gsm - for Cyanotype In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100307225711.3b7e5ef1.stratton@sunlink.net> Lois - Thank you! That is very helpful. I found that we do have some 31.45% muriatic acid in the basement (doesn't everyone? lol).. so I'm guessing about 10 ml of that strength into about 140 ml water might be about the right strength? (my 'instincts' seem to tingle that this still might be a little strong ?)... BTW - I was intrigued by the comment about the blacks.. not sure if this referred to shadows or if this somehow changed the prussian blue color? Again - many thanks for the help! Chris -- Chris & Nancy Stratton -- Chris & Nancy Stratton From jseigel at panix.com Mon Mar 8 06:17:54 2010 From: jseigel at panix.com (Judy Seigel) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 01:17:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: [alt-photo] Interesting notes on chemical safety from one who clearly knows a thing or three on the topic Message-ID: I was e-mailing with Andras Ssgor of Budapest, Hungary, who had just acquired the nine of Post-Factory, when, in response to one of its articles, he addressed some issues of safety in the process involved. I found his descriptions so awesomely beyond the familiar (at least to me), yet so commanding of respect (plus, frankly, a certain amount of terror) that I asked permission to share his commentary with the list... Permission gladly granted. Judy PS. I daresay I risk excoriation from whatshisname for adding that, as far as I can remember, Andras is the first P-F subscriber from Budapest, even -- if my stuttering memory serves, from Hungary -- and that I am totally thrilled about that... (She ducks.) PPS. Spelling errors, if any, are mine own. ----- Forwarded message --------- from Andras Ssgor, Budapest, March 1, 2010: ============================================ Because of my profession, I was captured by the dispute on safety issues following the publication of DIY gold trichloride. You may skip this part, if you are not interested in my opinion about the dispute. I dare say that both the author and his opponents overemphasized some aspects and neglected others. I think gold trichloride can be prepared at home as described, BUT -- the safety of the procedure relies on the small quantity. One should never try it on a larger scale. This is the major safety rule-of-thumb in the industry when hazardous chemical processes are conducted. The role of oxidable impurities [must not be] overlooked. There is a major hazard in pouring aqua regalis on easily oxidable materials. In this case, for instance, fatty matter could come with the old jewelry [used as source of gold], or the worker may have failed to keep his/her vessels clean, or, why not, the yellowish pieces of metal could turn out to be less precious (and more reactive ) alloys. All these cases may lead to heavy decomposition of HNO3, or even explosion, should the rule of working with the smallest quantity possible be broken. Then the author misinterpreted the rule of pouring acid into water and not vice versa. He claimed he made the operation safely by dumping a relatively large amount of water into the acid mixture. Yes, in this case he is right -- if the speed of dumping is high enough. The relatively large amount of water will function as thermal ballast and not allow local overheating, which causes the spreading of acids. I do not recommend repeating the experiment with a few drops of water. It's true, also, that aqua regalis contains water, which makes the reaction mild, compared with, let's say, pure sulfuric acid, or oleum. Then about hydrochloric acid, which is a gas: the solution can be made of 37% max. At room temperature that is the maximum solubility of HCl gas in water. You also have quite a large amount of water in system, which improves safety, diminishing the heat effect of adding more water. This acts as thermal inertia for overheating, because evaporation of water drains a lot of thermic energy from the system. Water has a high latent evaporation energy. But there is NO safe ventilation for this operation. Exhausting the fumes from one place means that the hazard is simply transferred to another place. Industrial-strength solution requires ventilation AND neutralization/adsorbtion/absorbtion. Mounting a scrubber/absorber on a ventilation duct is well beyond what an amateur darkroom can manage. When thinking about ventilation, one should think about where the exhausted air will end up -- with special concern for children, pets and neighbours. The same applies to waste, with special-- *very special* -- concern for substances sensitive to acids/bases. Volume/dilution will usually salvage the situation. Common uranium salt is not hazardous because of radioactivity (tho it could be ), but for acute toxic properties. A general item not given enough consideration is storage of chemicals. Storage means usually a longer period of time in which anything can happen, as described in safety manuals. But.. enough with these things. One can perform every photographic operation with enough safety margin - if he/she knows where the margins lie. ============================================================= [These words were followed by a few very kind words for P-F, which I, as editor, would be churlish to omit, yet may risk aforementioned obloquy for quoting. (Obviously, even without uranium salt, one can live dangerously)]: ============================================================= Many, many thanks again for the World Journals, I already learnt a lot of technical details and a much deeper understanding of what photography means. Best regards, Andras From mail at loris.medici.name Mon Mar 8 06:45:21 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 08:45:21 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Fabriano Artistico 300 gsm - for Cyanotype In-Reply-To: <20100307225711.3b7e5ef1.stratton@sunlink.net> References: <20100307225711.3b7e5ef1.stratton@sunlink.net> Message-ID: <0DFB136DABCF49268E0A9665A6A99069@altinyildiz.trk> We usually have something around 15% in the cleaning closet. 31.45% is almost concentrated, I'd suggest that you stay away of that if you aren't familiar with HCl... OTOH, it's pretty harmless in 2% solution. (But I still use gloves and tongs.) Yes 10ml 31.45% makes 3.145g HCl, if you divide this with 2% target strength (3.145 / 0.02) you'll find that you have to have a final volume of 157.25ml. Your figures aren't exact but they're fine enough... "Blacks" referred to shadows. Regards, Loris. -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf Of Chris & Nancy Stratton Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 5:57 AM To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Fabriano Artistico 300 gsm - for Cyanotype Lois - Thank you! That is very helpful. I found that we do have some 31.45% muriatic acid in the basement (doesn't everyone? lol).. so I'm guessing about 10 ml of that strength into about 140 ml water might be about the right strength? (my 'instincts' seem to tingle that this still might be a little strong ?)... BTW - I was intrigued by the comment about the blacks.. not sure if this referred to shadows or if this somehow changed the prussian blue color? Again - many thanks for the help! Chris From jon at sharperstill.com Mon Mar 8 10:25:48 2010 From: jon at sharperstill.com (Jon Reid) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 21:25:48 +1100 Subject: [alt-photo] Weston Diploma Parchment Message-ID: <302A6F01-C862-488C-9558-6EE0990EEE59@sharperstill.com> Hi all, I have been battling a problem for about 6 months now. At first I thought it was a clearing problem then after trying various things realised that it wasn't clearing but rather some density that was appearing in the coated area of the paper that is masked during exposure. The paper that I have been trying to print on is Weston Diploma Parchment. I bought this paper in early 2008 from Bostick & Sullivan and believe it is stock that was made by Cranes, not the re- invented Diploma Parchment Plat Pal being marketed by John Zowkowski of Butler Dearden. I am wishing to print my 5x7 rollo-pyro negs on these 11x14 sheets for my debut solo exhibition. I do not want to mat the prints so I am trying for very clear coated-but-masked areas. The other night, believing I was dealing with a fogging issue I set up darkroom safelights and coated under those lights. I then used a hair dryer and rested the paper in the room for 10-15min before exposure (11min in my UV box), and developed in KOx (cold bath version-fresh) at 21C. The room lights were not switched on until after I had finished dev and rinsed the paper. The density in the unexposed area was less than it had been but was still there (see link to parchment1.jpg below http://sharperstill.com/jonreid/pics/parchment1.jpg parchment2,jpg shows the same problem, same print recipe and exposure going back to last October. Note the difference in contrast. I then tried a piece of Cranes natural white wove (8.5x11sheet given by a friend). A very slight trace of density remained while it was still in the first clearing bath but has all but disappeared since. See http://sharperstill.com/jonreid/pics/craneswove.jpg My gut feeling was 'Right, it has to be the paper!' I have read Mike Wares test of this paper where he speaks of a chemical fog inherent under a pure palladium print-out method. The only nagging squirrel in my belief that it is a problem in the paper is that some time ago I tested Arches Platine and got the same result. Up until this project Platine was the only paper I have printed Pt/Pd on and apart from being stubborn to clear have never had any problems of this nature. That was what led me to believe that it was my room lights that were the problem. See platine: http://sharperstill.com/jonreid/pics/platine.jpg I really want to present these pictures on the wall in a certain way. and I don't think that Cranes natural white wove is available in 11x14, and probably especially not here in Aust. I don't have any specific questions from the list but invite thought, experiences and queries from any list member who might be able and want to contribute. This has been a tremendous source of frustration for me. Thank god I didn't have a deadline. Jon (Sydney, Australia) PS: Is this the paper formerly known as Platinotype? http://www.crane.com/prdSell.aspx? NavName=NavShop&DeptName=BusinessStationeryandAccessories&SubDeptName=Cr anesCoverStock&Name=21473_Cranes90lb.CoverStock23x29Sheets From clayh at clayharmon.com Mon Mar 8 11:53:08 2010 From: clayh at clayharmon.com (Clay Harmon Website) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 05:53:08 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment In-Reply-To: <302A6F01-C862-488C-9558-6EE0990EEE59@sharperstill.com> References: <302A6F01-C862-488C-9558-6EE0990EEE59@sharperstill.com> Message-ID: <333A23D8-6FA0-497E-9E7B-2930566A1F58@clayharmon.com> How old is the ferric oxalate you are using in your sensitizer? My first thought is that it could be fogging from some old sensitizer. Even 2 month old sensitizer can give some slight fogging. If it has been mixed a while, try mixing up a small amount of sensitizer and see if you get the same problem. I was printing yesterday, and had some ferric oxalate that I had mixed up in late December. I was getting a faint amount of fogging with it. Clay On Mar 8, 2010, at 4:25 AM, Jon Reid wrote: > Hi all, > > I have been battling a problem for about 6 months now. At first I thought it was a clearing problem then after trying various things realised that it wasn't clearing but rather some density that was appearing in the coated area of the paper that is masked during exposure. The paper that I have been trying to print on is Weston Diploma Parchment. I bought this paper in early 2008 from Bostick & Sullivan and believe it is stock that was made by Cranes, not the re-invented Diploma Parchment Plat Pal being marketed by John Zowkowski of Butler Dearden. > > I am wishing to print my 5x7 rollo-pyro negs on these 11x14 sheets for my debut solo exhibition. I do not want to mat the prints so I am trying for very clear coated-but-masked areas. The other night, believing I was dealing with a fogging issue I set up darkroom safelights and coated under those lights. I then used a hair dryer and rested the paper in the room for 10-15min before exposure (11min in my UV box), and developed in KOx (cold bath version-fresh) at 21C. The room lights were not switched on until after I had finished dev and rinsed the paper. The density in the unexposed area was less than it had been but was still there (see link to > parchment1.jpg below > http://sharperstill.com/jonreid/pics/parchment1.jpg > parchment2,jpg shows the same problem, same print recipe and exposure going back to last October. Note the difference in contrast. > > I then tried a piece of Cranes natural white wove (8.5x11sheet given by a friend). A very slight trace of density remained while it was still in the first clearing bath but has all but disappeared since. See > http://sharperstill.com/jonreid/pics/craneswove.jpg > > My gut feeling was 'Right, it has to be the paper!' I have read Mike Wares test of this paper where he speaks of a chemical fog inherent under a pure palladium print-out method. The only nagging squirrel in my belief that it is a problem in the paper is that some time ago I tested Arches Platine and got the same result. Up until this project Platine was the only paper I have printed Pt/Pd on and apart from being stubborn to clear have never had any problems of this nature. That was what led me to believe that it was my room lights that were the problem. See platine: > http://sharperstill.com/jonreid/pics/platine.jpg > > I really want to present these pictures on the wall in a certain way. and I don't think that Cranes natural white wove is available in 11x14, and probably especially not here in Aust. > > I don't have any specific questions from the list but invite thought, experiences and queries from any list member who might be able and want to contribute. This has been a tremendous source of frustration for me. Thank god I didn't have a deadline. > > Jon > (Sydney, Australia) > PS: Is this the paper formerly known as Platinotype? > http://www.crane.com/prdSell.aspx?NavName=NavShop&DeptName=BusinessStationeryandAccessories&SubDeptName=CranesCoverStock&Name=21473_Cranes90lb.CoverStock23x29Sheets > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Mon Mar 8 11:57:47 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 06:57:47 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment In-Reply-To: <333A23D8-6FA0-497E-9E7B-2930566A1F58@clayharmon.com> References: <302A6F01-C862-488C-9558-6EE0990EEE59@sharperstill.com> <333A23D8-6FA0-497E-9E7B-2930566A1F58@clayharmon.com> Message-ID: <87CE0100-3141-4143-9C2C-15C172CD168F@montana.net> Jon, What are you using to mask the negative? Are you sure it is dense enough? What is your light source? Are you getting a modicum of exposure, therefore, underneath your masking because of long print times and masking not opaque enough? Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 8 13:26:45 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 08:26:45 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment In-Reply-To: <302A6F01-C862-488C-9558-6EE0990EEE59@sharperstill.com> References: <302A6F01-C862-488C-9558-6EE0990EEE59@sharperstill.com> Message-ID: <68FC8DA8-206D-425D-B267-886C54FBB87C@bellsouth.net> Jon, Have you printed any of these without using a hair dryer beforehand? I'm thinking your problem might be either exhausted ferric oxalate, and/or use of the hair dryer-- as well as allowing it to sit for an additional 15 minutes after using the hair dryer(?). I taught a workshop once where there was some evidence of fogging, but only for those people using hair dryers-- even when they set it on a "cool" setting. When we eliminated the use of hair dryers, the problem disappeared. Just a suggestion, but it's worth a try to switch to fresh ferric oxalate and skip the hair dryer. I also think certain papers are really a disaster for pt/pd. I used to use, many years, ago Cranes Platinotype (sp?), and I couldn't completely clear a print on that paper to save my life-- no matter what I used.. I never liked the Weston paper, either, but I know I'm in the minority there. I just don't like the weight of it. Diana On Mar 8, 2010, at 5:25 AM, Jon Reid wrote: > Hi all, > > I have been battling a problem for about 6 months now. At first I > thought it was a clearing problem then after trying various things > realised that it wasn't clearing but rather some density that was > appearing in the coated area of the paper that is masked during > exposure. The paper that I have been trying to print on is Weston > Diploma Parchment. I bought this paper in early 2008 from Bostick & > Sullivan and believe it is stock that was made by Cranes, not the re- > invented Diploma Parchment Plat Pal being marketed by John Zowkowski > of Butler Dearden. > > I am wishing to print my 5x7 rollo-pyro negs on these 11x14 sheets > for my debut solo exhibition. I do not want to mat the prints so I > am trying for very clear coated-but-masked areas. The other night, > believing I was dealing with a fogging issue I set up darkroom > safelights and coated under those lights. I then used a hair dryer > and rested the paper in the room for 10-15min before exposure (11min > in my UV box), and developed in KOx (cold bath version-fresh) at 21C. From ender100 at aol.com Mon Mar 8 13:31:29 2010 From: ender100 at aol.com (Mark Nelson) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 08:31:29 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment In-Reply-To: <68FC8DA8-206D-425D-B267-886C54FBB87C@bellsouth.net> References: <302A6F01-C862-488C-9558-6EE0990EEE59@sharperstill.com> <68FC8DA8-206D-425D-B267-886C54FBB87C@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <18A3C3FB-398B-4332-A836-10E2AF5D85B2@aol.com> Try Heico Permawash for clearing Pt/Pd. Mix 1 oz per qt of water. Use 3 5 min baths. Mark Nelson www.PrecisionDigitalNegatives.com PDNPRint Forum @ Yahoo Groups www.MarkINelsonPhoto.com sent from my iPhonetypeDeviceThingy On Mar 8, 2010, at 8:26 AM, Diana Bloomfield wrote: > Jon, > > Have you printed any of these without using a hair dryer > beforehand? I'm thinking your problem might be either exhausted > ferric oxalate, and/or use of the hair dryer-- as well as allowing > it to sit for an additional 15 minutes after using the hair dryer > (?). I taught a workshop once where there was some evidence of > fogging, but only for those people using hair dryers-- even when > they set it on a "cool" setting. When we eliminated the use of hair > dryers, the problem disappeared. Just a suggestion, but it's worth > a try to switch to fresh ferric oxalate and skip the hair dryer. I > also think certain papers are really a disaster for pt/pd. I used > to use, many years, ago Cranes Platinotype (sp?), and I couldn't > completely clear a print on that paper to save my life-- no matter > what I used.. I never liked the Weston paper, either, but I know > I'm in the minority there. I just don't like the weight of it. > > Diana > > > On Mar 8, 2010, at 5:25 AM, Jon Reid wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I have been battling a problem for about 6 months now. At first I >> thought it was a clearing problem then after trying various things >> realised that it wasn't clearing but rather some density that was >> appearing in the coated area of the paper that is masked during >> exposure. The paper that I have been trying to print on is Weston >> Diploma Parchment. I bought this paper in early 2008 from Bostick & >> Sullivan and believe it is stock that was made by Cranes, not the >> re-invented Diploma Parchment Plat Pal being marketed by John >> Zowkowski of Butler Dearden. >> >> I am wishing to print my 5x7 rollo-pyro negs on these 11x14 sheets >> for my debut solo exhibition. I do not want to mat the prints so I >> am trying for very clear coated-but-masked areas. The other night, >> believing I was dealing with a fogging issue I set up darkroom >> safelights and coated under those lights. I then used a hair dryer >> and rested the paper in the room for 10-15min before exposure >> (11min in my UV box), and developed in KOx (cold bath version- >> fresh) at 21C. > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Mon Mar 8 13:36:35 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 15:36:35 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment In-Reply-To: <68FC8DA8-206D-425D-B267-886C54FBB87C@bellsouth.net> References: <302A6F01-C862-488C-9558-6EE0990EEE59@sharperstill.com> <68FC8DA8-206D-425D-B267-886C54FBB87C@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <55DB6092D08B403FAF41CB7B1FB1D717@altinyildiz.trk> Indeed, it's a fragile paper compared to bulletproof COT 320 and such; doesn't take handling well, especially for sheet sizes over 11x14", creases easily, the surface is very delicate (the slightest touch while wet processing will abrade the surface and image instantly)... Also, the off-white base doesn't suit every image - and every process; for instance, to me it's awful for cyanotypes, because the resulting image too greenish for my taste. Plus, I've heard there are concerns about the "comparative" longevity of the rosin-alum sizing. OTOH, it's a nice deviance where it fits and the price is really compelling. As you can see, I have mixed feelings about this paper... I have a good stash of it (200+ sheets 11x14") waiting for further my attention; I really don't know when I'll come back to it. Regards, Loris. -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf Of Diana Bloomfield Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 3:27 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment ... I never liked the Weston paper, either, but I know I'm in the minority there. I just don't like the weight of it ... From awschmitt at verizon.net Mon Mar 8 15:20:24 2010 From: awschmitt at verizon.net (Andy Schmitt) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 10:20:24 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] FW: Removing Stripes from negative printouts Message-ID: Just found this this morning on the Epson4000 group [Epson4000 at yahoogroups.com] posted by Jarvis Rant http://www.redrivercatalog.com/infocenter/tips/inkjet-printer-paper-thicknes s-platen-gap-adjustment.html regards Andy Schmitt Head of Photography, Peters Valley Craft Center 2010 schedule available on line at: http://www.petersvalley.org/brochure/photography.pdf -----Original Message----- From: Andy Schmitt [mailto:awschmitt at verizon.net] Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 10:05 AM To: A - Andy Schmitt Subject: Removing Stripes from negative printouts Message: 6 Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 19:19:06 -0500 From: Amy Holmes George To: Subject: [alt-photo] Update: Vertical Banding in Prints Produced from Digital Negatives Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Whew, I am no longer seeing stripes! Here's a follow-up on my recent encounter with the "Venetian Blind Effect" while making pt/pd prints from digital negatives on an Epson 3800. If you happen to experience this strange vertical banding of dark/light/dark/light?especially in high value areas of your prints?here's a few things to consider: 1. Set the Paper Thickness to 6 (Pictorico Ultra Premium OHP Transparency Film is 5.7 mil, but the default for Premium Photo Paper Glossy is 3 mil) 2. Set the Platen Gap to Standard (instead of Auto) 3. Change the Paper Feed Adjustment by increments of -5 until the vertical banding disappears (for me, the magic number was -30) OK, now back to printing . . . Amy Holmes George From donsbryant at gmail.com Mon Mar 8 16:06:38 2010 From: donsbryant at gmail.com (Don Bryant) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 11:06:38 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] SPE 2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <68D0AEBE7C8F4285BAD5B924C6FEB1E5@TravlinHP> Chris, > Speaking of which, Don, the next SPE conference is in Atlanta! March 10-13 I think it is, so I'll get to see you! A guy named Michael Marshall at University of Georgia Athens is heading it up. > Yeah that will great to meet up, very very long time no see. I enjoyed some of the events last fall at the regional SPE here in Atlanta. Perhaps we can get some of the Clemson alumni to join us. As a matter of fact, I own one of Mike's large palladium prints, it hangs in my wife's office at work. Don From frangst at gmail.com Mon Mar 8 16:08:44 2010 From: frangst at gmail.com (francis schanberger) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 11:08:44 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] SPE and Liquid light developer hardner and fixer dilutions Message-ID: <4c6fbba01003080808x358afc97w7ff74576b88847a7@mail.gmail.com> My head is still groggy from the long SPE weekend and travel. Great to finally meet Chris in person and Mark. Those were beautiful photo polymer gravures. And one must hold Chris' Chromoskedasic Sabattier prints in order to see them in all of their silvery goodness. I even liked the one that didn't plate out. Congratualtions to Stephanie Obernesser on selling work there. I enjoyed talking to the undergraduate students about their portfolios. I need help with recipes relating to working with Liquid Light. Chris James recommends using a Maco hardner in Dektol. Does anyone have a recipe from scratch that could achieve the same thing? Also, I have a dilution for hypo for use with VDB but not a "normal" dilution for hypo for fixing papers. Working directions ask for a plain hypo with a hardner added. Could I add some of the Kodak Rapid Fix solution B (the sulfuric acid hardner) to the plain hypo to achieve this. Could someone suggest a starting point? Sodium Metabisulfite vs. Potassium Metabisulfite? Could I use the latter instead of the former for the Kodak Kodak Fixer 24 recipe? If not is Sodium Metabisulfite the one used in brewing beer? If so I can pick some up at the beer, wine and home brewing store across town. francis schanberger www.frangst.com From ejnphoto at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 8 19:54:33 2010 From: ejnphoto at sbcglobal.net (EJ Photo) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 13:54:33 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment In-Reply-To: <68FC8DA8-206D-425D-B267-886C54FBB87C@bellsouth.net> References: <302A6F01-C862-488C-9558-6EE0990EEE59@sharperstill.com> <68FC8DA8-206D-425D-B267-886C54FBB87C@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: I haven't seen heat fog with that paper. It could very well be an issue with Ferric but replacing is NOT always needed. It could very well be that repairing it is in order. It could be a pH issue or all sorts of stuff. Try adding some more Oxalic acid to your ferric. Hair dryers should only be used lightly and primarily on the backside with low heat. I'd suspect the light bleed along the negative material; light piping. Try place the mask under it just for a test and see if it stops it. If you can't get it to stop, clear, or prevent the distraction of the fog, just coat the whole piece of paper. ; ) have you tried a fresh batch of developer? Is it possible that you were playing around with it and had some lithium in the mix? or gold that is fogging it? Eric Eric Neilsen Eric Neilsen Photography 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 Dallas, TX 75226 www.ericneilsenphotography.com skype me with ejprinter www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1 Let's Talk Photography -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Diana Bloomfield Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 7:27 AM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment Jon, Have you printed any of these without using a hair dryer beforehand? I'm thinking your problem might be either exhausted ferric oxalate, and/or use of the hair dryer-- as well as allowing it to sit for an additional 15 minutes after using the hair dryer(?). I taught a workshop once where there was some evidence of fogging, but only for those people using hair dryers-- even when they set it on a "cool" setting. When we eliminated the use of hair dryers, the problem disappeared. Just a suggestion, but it's worth a try to switch to fresh ferric oxalate and skip the hair dryer. I also think certain papers are really a disaster for pt/pd. I used to use, many years, ago Cranes Platinotype (sp?), and I couldn't completely clear a print on that paper to save my life-- no matter what I used.. I never liked the Weston paper, either, but I know I'm in the minority there. I just don't like the weight of it. Diana On Mar 8, 2010, at 5:25 AM, Jon Reid wrote: > Hi all, > > I have been battling a problem for about 6 months now. At first I > thought it was a clearing problem then after trying various things > realised that it wasn't clearing but rather some density that was > appearing in the coated area of the paper that is masked during > exposure. The paper that I have been trying to print on is Weston > Diploma Parchment. I bought this paper in early 2008 from Bostick & > Sullivan and believe it is stock that was made by Cranes, not the re- > invented Diploma Parchment Plat Pal being marketed by John Zowkowski > of Butler Dearden. > > I am wishing to print my 5x7 rollo-pyro negs on these 11x14 sheets > for my debut solo exhibition. I do not want to mat the prints so I > am trying for very clear coated-but-masked areas. The other night, > believing I was dealing with a fogging issue I set up darkroom > safelights and coated under those lights. I then used a hair dryer > and rested the paper in the room for 10-15min before exposure (11min > in my UV box), and developed in KOx (cold bath version-fresh) at 21C. _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From stratton at sunlink.net Mon Mar 8 20:50:18 2010 From: stratton at sunlink.net (Chris) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 15:50:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: greetings from SPE Message-ID: <1845225.1268081418520.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Christina Anderson reported regarding, Mark Nelson (photopolymer).. I've looked for his websites which have "gone missing": markinelson and precisiondigitalnegatives or similar.. Does anyone have any thoughts as to what might be a live site for Mark? Chris From earlj at comcast.net Mon Mar 8 21:22:12 2010 From: earlj at comcast.net (Earl Johnson) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 15:22:12 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: greetings from SPE In-Reply-To: <1845225.1268081418520.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <1845225.1268081418520.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4B956A84.4090708@comcast.net> http://www.precisiondigitalnegatives.com/ http://www.markinelsonphoto.com/ both work for me. Earl Johnson Chris wrote: > Christina Anderson reported regarding, Mark Nelson (photopolymer).. I've looked for his websites which have "gone missing": markinelson and precisiondigitalnegatives or similar.. > > Does anyone have any thoughts as to what might be a live site for Mark? > > Chris > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > From ender100 at aol.com Mon Mar 8 21:07:30 2010 From: ender100 at aol.com (Mark Nelson) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 16:07:30 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: greetings from SPE In-Reply-To: <1845225.1268081418520.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <1845225.1268081418520.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Sorry for the temporary problem. Working on it! Mark Nelson www.PrecisionDigitalNegatives.com PDNPRint Forum @ Yahoo Groups www.MarkINelsonPhoto.com sent from my iPhonetypeDeviceThingy On Mar 8, 2010, at 3:50 PM, Chris wrote: > Christina Anderson reported regarding, Mark Nelson (photopolymer).. > I've looked for his websites which have "gone missing": markinelson > and precisiondigitalnegatives or similar.. > > Does anyone have any thoughts as to what might be a live site for > Mark? > > Chris > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca Mon Mar 8 22:32:11 2010 From: pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca (Peter Friderichsen) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 17:32:11 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: SPE and Liquid light developer hardner and fixer dilutions In-Reply-To: <4c6fbba01003080808x358afc97w7ff74576b88847a7@mail.gmail.co m> References: <4c6fbba01003080808x358afc97w7ff74576b88847a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Francis, Re Sodium Metabisulfite vs. Potassium Metabisulfite? AFAIK they can be used interchangeably. The latter is more often used in wine/beer making to keep sodium out of the diet although I have seen the sodium salt also available for sale. The former is less expensive so it is used more often in non-food applications. Peter At 11:08 AM 03/08/2010, you wrote: >My head is still groggy from the long SPE weekend and travel. Great to >finally meet Chris in person and Mark. Those were beautiful photo polymer >gravures. And one must hold Chris' Chromoskedasic Sabattier prints in order >to see them in all of their silvery goodness. I even liked the one that >didn't plate out. Congratualtions to Stephanie Obernesser on selling work >there. I enjoyed talking to the undergraduate students about their >portfolios. > >I need help with recipes relating to working with Liquid Light. > >Chris James recommends using a Maco hardner in Dektol. Does anyone have a >recipe from scratch that could achieve the same thing? > >Also, I have a dilution for hypo for use with VDB but not a "normal" >dilution for hypo for fixing papers. Working directions ask for a plain hypo >with a hardner added. Could I add some of the Kodak Rapid Fix solution B >(the sulfuric acid hardner) to the plain hypo to achieve this. Could someone >suggest a starting point? > >Sodium Metabisulfite vs. Potassium Metabisulfite? Could I use the latter >instead of the former for the Kodak Kodak Fixer 24 recipe? If not is Sodium >Metabisulfite the one used in brewing beer? If so I can pick some up at the >beer, wine and home brewing store across town. > >francis schanberger > >www.frangst.com >_______________________________________________ >Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From jon at sharperstill.com Mon Mar 8 22:53:07 2010 From: jon at sharperstill.com (Jon Reid) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:53:07 +1100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment In-Reply-To: References: <302A6F01-C862-488C-9558-6EE0990EEE59@sharperstill.com> <68FC8DA8-206D-425D-B267-886C54FBB87C@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4E6D86D6-AA9C-49F8-98FD-2206748C1B44@sharperstill.com> Hi all, Thanks fro all your responses. I didn't put all details into the post of every solution I had tried as it was already getting unwieldy. I lent my sensitizer #1 solution to a friend just two weeks ago who made a beautiful pure palladium print from it. It was made up fairly recently from powdered stock that is <2 years old and always refrigerated. I think it's alright. I'm using the black plastic from bags that silver-gelatin photo papers come packaged in. It is what I normally use (though the last few years I have been printing from digital inter-negatives that have opaque borders and don't require masking.) The plastic is between paper and negative, so piping shouldn't be the cause. With regards to drying the coated paper. I was taught, when I first learnt platinum, to use warm/hot air from a hair dryer then rest the paper to allow it to regain some humidity before exposure. I then subsequently read that some people believe it reduces Dmax and contrast so I started using cool air and or air drying before laying the print on a rack over a bath of saturated salt solution (household table salt). To be honest, that's when I thought the fogging was getting worse. Perhaps it was too humid? I decided to try and simplify my process back to when it used to work for me (when I used Platine), so this time I blasted with warm air, then rested under safelights before exposure. My exposure unit is black light tubes - fairly basic and standard. I tried a fresh batch of developer. I was favouring the 'cold bath' version of KOx as per the Sullivan and Weese book as I don't want too warm a tone however the interesting thing from the tests the other night is that there was little difference in tone between that version and straight KOx used at 21DegC. I gather no one else has had this problem as I have, so maybe it isn't the paper. I'm frustrated to the nth, with 30 or so negs to print for my debut solo show... Jon On 09/03/2010, at 6:54 AM, EJ Photo wrote: > I haven't seen heat fog with that paper. It could very well be an > issue with > Ferric but replacing is NOT always needed. It could very well be that > repairing it is in order. It could be a pH issue or all sorts of > stuff. Try > adding some more Oxalic acid to your ferric. Hair dryers should > only be used > lightly and primarily on the backside with low heat. > > > I'd suspect the light bleed along the negative material; light > piping. Try > place the mask under it just for a test and see if it stops it. If > you can't > get it to stop, clear, or prevent the distraction of the fog, just > coat the > whole piece of paper. ; ) > > have you tried a fresh batch of developer? Is it possible that you > were > playing around with it and had some lithium in the mix? or gold > that is > fogging it? > > Eric > > Eric Neilsen > Eric Neilsen Photography > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 > Dallas, TX 75226 > > www.ericneilsenphotography.com > skype me with ejprinter > www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1 > Let's Talk Photography > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On > Behalf Of > Diana Bloomfield > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 7:27 AM > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment > > Jon, > > Have you printed any of these without using a hair dryer beforehand? > I'm thinking your problem might be either exhausted ferric oxalate, > and/or use of the hair dryer-- as well as allowing it to sit for an > additional 15 minutes after using the hair dryer(?). I taught a > workshop once where there was some evidence of fogging, but only for > those people using hair dryers-- even when they set it on a "cool" > setting. When we eliminated the use of hair dryers, the problem > disappeared. Just a suggestion, but it's worth a try to switch to > fresh ferric oxalate and skip the hair dryer. I also think certain > papers are really a disaster for pt/pd. I used to use, many years, > ago Cranes Platinotype (sp?), and I couldn't completely clear a print > on that paper to save my life-- no matter what I used.. I never liked > the Weston paper, either, but I know I'm in the minority there. I > just don't like the weight of it. > > Diana > > > On Mar 8, 2010, at 5:25 AM, Jon Reid wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I have been battling a problem for about 6 months now. At first I >> thought it was a clearing problem then after trying various things >> realised that it wasn't clearing but rather some density that was >> appearing in the coated area of the paper that is masked during >> exposure. The paper that I have been trying to print on is Weston >> Diploma Parchment. I bought this paper in early 2008 from Bostick & >> Sullivan and believe it is stock that was made by Cranes, not the re- >> invented Diploma Parchment Plat Pal being marketed by John Zowkowski >> of Butler Dearden. >> >> I am wishing to print my 5x7 rollo-pyro negs on these 11x14 sheets >> for my debut solo exhibition. I do not want to mat the prints so I >> am trying for very clear coated-but-masked areas. The other night, >> believing I was dealing with a fogging issue I set up darkroom >> safelights and coated under those lights. I then used a hair dryer >> and rested the paper in the room for 10-15min before exposure (11min >> in my UV box), and developed in KOx (cold bath version-fresh) at 21C. > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From viapiano at pacbell.net Tue Mar 9 00:02:16 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 16:02:16 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment References: <302A6F01-C862-488C-9558-6EE0990EEE59@sharperstill.com><68FC8DA8-206D-425D-B267-886C54FBB87C@bellsouth.net> <4E6D86D6-AA9C-49F8-98FD-2206748C1B44@sharperstill.com> Message-ID: <000b01cabf1b$c7c8d390$c600a8c0@dell4600> Jon, If the prints itself seems OK and you're trying to get a show printed, why not just mask the paper itself before coating with blue painters tape. Mark the corners of the negative on the paper with light pencil dots, peel the tape off the roll and stick it to your jeans a few times to reduce tack even more, apply to paper and then coat. After coating, peel it off and dry the paper. Make sure you realign the neg before printing and use a few pieces of tape to hold the neg and paper in registration. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jon Reid" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 2:53 PM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment > Hi all, > Thanks fro all your responses. > I didn't put all details into the post of every solution I had tried as > it was already getting unwieldy. > > I lent my sensitizer #1 solution to a friend just two weeks ago who made > a beautiful pure palladium print from it. It was made up fairly recently > from powdered stock that is <2 years old and always refrigerated. I think > it's alright. > > I'm using the black plastic from bags that silver-gelatin photo papers > come packaged in. It is what I normally use (though the last few years I > have been printing from digital inter-negatives that have opaque borders > and don't require masking.) The plastic is between paper and negative, so > piping shouldn't be the cause. > > With regards to drying the coated paper. I was taught, when I first > learnt platinum, to use warm/hot air from a hair dryer then rest the > paper to allow it to regain some humidity before exposure. I then > subsequently read that some people believe it reduces Dmax and contrast > so I started using cool air and or air drying before laying the print on > a rack over a bath of saturated salt solution (household table salt). To > be honest, that's when I thought the fogging was getting worse. Perhaps > it was too humid? > > I decided to try and simplify my process back to when it used to work for > me (when I used Platine), so this time I blasted with warm air, then > rested under safelights before exposure. My exposure unit is black light > tubes - fairly basic and standard. > > I tried a fresh batch of developer. I was favouring the 'cold bath' > version of KOx as per the Sullivan and Weese book as I don't want too > warm a tone however the interesting thing from the tests the other night > is that there was little difference in tone between that version and > straight KOx used at 21DegC. > > I gather no one else has had this problem as I have, so maybe it isn't > the paper. I'm frustrated to the nth, with 30 or so negs to print for my > debut solo show... > > Jon > > > On 09/03/2010, at 6:54 AM, EJ Photo wrote: > >> I haven't seen heat fog with that paper. It could very well be an issue >> with >> Ferric but replacing is NOT always needed. It could very well be that >> repairing it is in order. It could be a pH issue or all sorts of stuff. >> Try >> adding some more Oxalic acid to your ferric. Hair dryers should only be >> used >> lightly and primarily on the backside with low heat. >> >> >> I'd suspect the light bleed along the negative material; light piping. >> Try >> place the mask under it just for a test and see if it stops it. If you >> can't >> get it to stop, clear, or prevent the distraction of the fog, just coat >> the >> whole piece of paper. ; ) >> >> have you tried a fresh batch of developer? Is it possible that you were >> playing around with it and had some lithium in the mix? or gold that is >> fogging it? >> >> Eric >> >> Eric Neilsen >> Eric Neilsen Photography >> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 >> Dallas, TX 75226 >> >> www.ericneilsenphotography.com >> skype me with ejprinter >> www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1 >> Let's Talk Photography >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org >> [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf >> Of >> Diana Bloomfield >> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 7:27 AM >> To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment >> >> Jon, >> >> Have you printed any of these without using a hair dryer beforehand? >> I'm thinking your problem might be either exhausted ferric oxalate, >> and/or use of the hair dryer-- as well as allowing it to sit for an >> additional 15 minutes after using the hair dryer(?). I taught a >> workshop once where there was some evidence of fogging, but only for >> those people using hair dryers-- even when they set it on a "cool" >> setting. When we eliminated the use of hair dryers, the problem >> disappeared. Just a suggestion, but it's worth a try to switch to >> fresh ferric oxalate and skip the hair dryer. I also think certain >> papers are really a disaster for pt/pd. I used to use, many years, >> ago Cranes Platinotype (sp?), and I couldn't completely clear a print >> on that paper to save my life-- no matter what I used.. I never liked >> the Weston paper, either, but I know I'm in the minority there. I >> just don't like the weight of it. >> >> Diana >> >> >> On Mar 8, 2010, at 5:25 AM, Jon Reid wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I have been battling a problem for about 6 months now. At first I >>> thought it was a clearing problem then after trying various things >>> realised that it wasn't clearing but rather some density that was >>> appearing in the coated area of the paper that is masked during >>> exposure. The paper that I have been trying to print on is Weston >>> Diploma Parchment. I bought this paper in early 2008 from Bostick & >>> Sullivan and believe it is stock that was made by Cranes, not the re- >>> invented Diploma Parchment Plat Pal being marketed by John Zowkowski >>> of Butler Dearden. >>> >>> I am wishing to print my 5x7 rollo-pyro negs on these 11x14 sheets >>> for my debut solo exhibition. I do not want to mat the prints so I >>> am trying for very clear coated-but-masked areas. The other night, >>> believing I was dealing with a fogging issue I set up darkroom >>> safelights and coated under those lights. I then used a hair dryer >>> and rested the paper in the room for 10-15min before exposure (11min >>> in my UV box), and developed in KOx (cold bath version-fresh) at 21C. >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From ender100 at aol.com Tue Mar 9 04:37:30 2010 From: ender100 at aol.com (ender100 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 23:37:30 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: SPE and Liquid light developer hardner and fixer dilutions In-Reply-To: <4c6fbba01003080808x358afc97w7ff74576b88847a7@mail.gmail.com> References: <4c6fbba01003080808x358afc97w7ff74576b88847a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CC8D595CCAFAE7-3A38-7A55@webmail-d097.sysops.aol.com> Francis, Great to meet you and loved the portfolio of seedpods you showed. Thanks for the comment on the Photopolymer Gravures! My head is still groggy from the long SPE weekend and travel. Great to finally meet Chris in person and Mark. Those were beautiful photo polymer gravures. And one must hold Chris' Chromoskedasic Sabattier prints in order to see them in all of their silvery goodness. I even liked the one that didn't plate out. Congratualtions to Stephanie Obernesser on selling work there. I enjoyed talking to the undergraduate students about their portfolios. -----Original Message----- From: francis schanberger To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Sent: Mon, Mar 8, 2010 11:08 am Subject: [alt-photo] SPE and Liquid light developer hardner and fixer dilutions My head is still groggy from the long SPE weekend and travel. Great to finally meet Chris in person and Mark. Those were beautiful photo polymer gravures. And one must hold Chris' Chromoskedasic Sabattier prints in order to see them in all of their silvery goodness. I even liked the one that didn't plate out. Congratualtions to Stephanie Obernesser on selling work there. I enjoyed talking to the undergraduate students about their portfolios. I need help with recipes relating to working with Liquid Light. Chris James recommends using a Maco hardner in Dektol. Does anyone have a recipe from scratch that could achieve the same thing? Also, I have a dilution for hypo for use with VDB but not a "normal" dilution for hypo for fixing papers. Working directions ask for a plain hypo with a hardner added. Could I add some of the Kodak Rapid Fix solution B (the sulfuric acid hardner) to the plain hypo to achieve this. Could someone suggest a starting point? Sodium Metabisulfite vs. Potassium Metabisulfite? Could I use the latter instead of the former for the Kodak Kodak Fixer 24 recipe? If not is Sodium Metabisulfite the one used in brewing beer? If so I can pick some up at the beer, wine and home brewing store across town. francis schanberger www.frangst.com _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From ejnphoto at sbcglobal.net Tue Mar 9 05:17:31 2010 From: ejnphoto at sbcglobal.net (EJ Photo) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 23:17:31 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment In-Reply-To: <4E6D86D6-AA9C-49F8-98FD-2206748C1B44@sharperstill.com> References: <302A6F01-C862-488C-9558-6EE0990EEE59@sharperstill.com><68FC8DA8-206D-425D-B267-886C54FBB87C@bellsouth.net> <4E6D86D6-AA9C-49F8-98FD-2206748C1B44@sharperstill.com> Message-ID: <632DB2EEF7CE47BBB887E7FA79A61DA7@Eric64> Jon, The use of a hair dry or other warm air stream, should be used with caution around a pt/pd print as you know. The slight front or face drying of the print at a low level, and then a longer back side drying can work with great effectiveness. The resting time, will depend greatly on type of metals used and RH of environment. PD needs moisture much more so than PT to both print with speed and Dmax. So those experiencing lower Dmax may be printing with those conditions. Also the type of ferric, FO vs AFO will also be a factor. Test your ferric with the potassium ferrocynide test, a 1/4 teaspoon in 25 to 50ml of distilled water. Put a drop or two into the solution. If it turns blue your screwed. If it stays brown, your fine and the longer the better but it too will change. Table salt bath??? well that's a new one on me. If your looking for colder toned prints try making your palladium solution with ammonium chloride instead of sodium. Eric Neilsen Eric Neilsen Photography 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 Dallas, TX 75226 www.ericneilsenphotography.com skype me with ejprinter www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1 Let's Talk Photography -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Jon Reid Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 4:53 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment Hi all, Thanks fro all your responses. I didn't put all details into the post of every solution I had tried as it was already getting unwieldy. I lent my sensitizer #1 solution to a friend just two weeks ago who made a beautiful pure palladium print from it. It was made up fairly recently from powdered stock that is <2 years old and always refrigerated. I think it's alright. I'm using the black plastic from bags that silver-gelatin photo papers come packaged in. It is what I normally use (though the last few years I have been printing from digital inter-negatives that have opaque borders and don't require masking.) The plastic is between paper and negative, so piping shouldn't be the cause. With regards to drying the coated paper. I was taught, when I first learnt platinum, to use warm/hot air from a hair dryer then rest the paper to allow it to regain some humidity before exposure. I then subsequently read that some people believe it reduces Dmax and contrast so I started using cool air and or air drying before laying the print on a rack over a bath of saturated salt solution (household table salt). To be honest, that's when I thought the fogging was getting worse. Perhaps it was too humid? I decided to try and simplify my process back to when it used to work for me (when I used Platine), so this time I blasted with warm air, then rested under safelights before exposure. My exposure unit is black light tubes - fairly basic and standard. I tried a fresh batch of developer. I was favouring the 'cold bath' version of KOx as per the Sullivan and Weese book as I don't want too warm a tone however the interesting thing from the tests the other night is that there was little difference in tone between that version and straight KOx used at 21DegC. I gather no one else has had this problem as I have, so maybe it isn't the paper. I'm frustrated to the nth, with 30 or so negs to print for my debut solo show... Jon On 09/03/2010, at 6:54 AM, EJ Photo wrote: > I haven't seen heat fog with that paper. It could very well be an > issue with > Ferric but replacing is NOT always needed. It could very well be that > repairing it is in order. It could be a pH issue or all sorts of > stuff. Try > adding some more Oxalic acid to your ferric. Hair dryers should > only be used > lightly and primarily on the backside with low heat. > > > I'd suspect the light bleed along the negative material; light > piping. Try > place the mask under it just for a test and see if it stops it. If > you can't > get it to stop, clear, or prevent the distraction of the fog, just > coat the > whole piece of paper. ; ) > > have you tried a fresh batch of developer? Is it possible that you > were > playing around with it and had some lithium in the mix? or gold > that is > fogging it? > > Eric > > Eric Neilsen > Eric Neilsen Photography > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 > Dallas, TX 75226 > > www.ericneilsenphotography.com > skype me with ejprinter > www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1 > Let's Talk Photography > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On > Behalf Of > Diana Bloomfield > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 7:27 AM > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment > > Jon, > > Have you printed any of these without using a hair dryer beforehand? > I'm thinking your problem might be either exhausted ferric oxalate, > and/or use of the hair dryer-- as well as allowing it to sit for an > additional 15 minutes after using the hair dryer(?). I taught a > workshop once where there was some evidence of fogging, but only for > those people using hair dryers-- even when they set it on a "cool" > setting. When we eliminated the use of hair dryers, the problem > disappeared. Just a suggestion, but it's worth a try to switch to > fresh ferric oxalate and skip the hair dryer. I also think certain > papers are really a disaster for pt/pd. I used to use, many years, > ago Cranes Platinotype (sp?), and I couldn't completely clear a print > on that paper to save my life-- no matter what I used.. I never liked > the Weston paper, either, but I know I'm in the minority there. I > just don't like the weight of it. > > Diana > > > On Mar 8, 2010, at 5:25 AM, Jon Reid wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I have been battling a problem for about 6 months now. At first I >> thought it was a clearing problem then after trying various things >> realised that it wasn't clearing but rather some density that was >> appearing in the coated area of the paper that is masked during >> exposure. The paper that I have been trying to print on is Weston >> Diploma Parchment. I bought this paper in early 2008 from Bostick & >> Sullivan and believe it is stock that was made by Cranes, not the re- >> invented Diploma Parchment Plat Pal being marketed by John Zowkowski >> of Butler Dearden. >> >> I am wishing to print my 5x7 rollo-pyro negs on these 11x14 sheets >> for my debut solo exhibition. I do not want to mat the prints so I >> am trying for very clear coated-but-masked areas. The other night, >> believing I was dealing with a fogging issue I set up darkroom >> safelights and coated under those lights. I then used a hair dryer >> and rested the paper in the room for 10-15min before exposure (11min >> in my UV box), and developed in KOx (cold bath version-fresh) at 21C. > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From e.camerling at tiscali.nl Tue Mar 9 10:26:57 2010 From: e.camerling at tiscali.nl (Erich Camerling) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 11:26:57 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: SPE and Liquid light developer hardner and fixer dilutions In-Reply-To: References: <4c6fbba01003080808x358afc97w7ff74576b88847a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B962271.9090805@tiscali.nl> Dear Francis, You can use Sodium metabisulfite (Na2S2O5 ,CAS nr: 7784-46-5) instead of Potassium metabisulfite (K2S2O5 ,CAS nr: 16731-55-8. ) Unfortunately I don't know the stability of Sodium metabisulfite .Potassium metabisulfite is stable for a space of years when you store the solid matter DRY (in a glass bottle). Kind regards, Erich Peter Friderichsen schreef: > Francis, > > Re Sodium Metabisulfite vs. Potassium Metabisulfite? > > AFAIK they can be used interchangeably. The latter is more often used > in wine/beer making to keep sodium out of the diet although I have > seen the sodium salt also available for sale. The former is less > expensive so it is used more often in non-food applications. > > Peter > > From mail at loris.medici.name Tue Mar 9 10:51:50 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 12:51:50 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: SPE and Liquid light developer hardner and fixer dilutions In-Reply-To: <4B962271.9090805@tiscali.nl> References: <4c6fbba01003080808x358afc97w7ff74576b88847a7@mail.gmail.com> <4B962271.9090805@tiscali.nl> Message-ID: <34122B7559B14861ABF8F10DAA597D28@altinyildiz.trk> Mine is pretty stable, but have to admit that I don't use it in critical applications. To my knowing, you have to keep away metabisulfites from air and water, in order to prolong their shelf life... Regards, Loris. -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf Of Erich Camerling Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 12:27 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: SPE and Liquid light developer hardner and fixer dilutions ... Unfortunately I don't know the stability of Sodium metabisulfite ... From jon at sharperstill.com Tue Mar 9 11:06:37 2010 From: jon at sharperstill.com (Jon Reid) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 22:06:37 +1100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment In-Reply-To: <632DB2EEF7CE47BBB887E7FA79A61DA7@Eric64> References: <302A6F01-C862-488C-9558-6EE0990EEE59@sharperstill.com><68FC8DA8-206D-425D-B267-886C54FBB87C@bellsouth.net> <4E6D86D6-AA9C-49F8-98FD-2206748C1B44@sharperstill.com> <632DB2EEF7CE47BBB887E7FA79A61DA7@Eric64> Message-ID: Eric, "The use of a hair dry or other warm air stream, should be used with caution around a pt/pd print as you know" Well no, I don't know. As I said I was taught to give the coated sheet a good going over, both sides, with warm air from a hair dryer then rest to restore humidity. "Also the type of ferric, FO vs AFO will also be a factor" Mine is straight FO, from B&S, so far as I know. I kind of feel that I have tested the FO. I gave it to a friend who produced a wonderful pure palladium print on Cranes natural white wove, the same paper he gave a few sheets of to me and I had success with. "palladium solution with ammonium chloride instead of sodium." My palladium solution is the pre-mixed variety from B&S. Sourcing these sorts of chemicals is very difficult in Australia. One of our major photographic suppliers has just stopped carrying all powder chemistry, so even getting cheap citric acid is a chore. Hence my reluctance to get stuff like potassium ferrocynide for a test. I guess I was hoping a whole bunch of people would reply saying 'yeah, that paper is kinda crap' and I'd feel OK about trying another. I quite like Platine but it is too heavy and white for this series of photographs. To Diana: I have always used a hair dryer on these prints, mostly on cool setting until the other night when I switched to warm to really dry the bejeesus out of it. I guess my dilemma is to continue trying to nail the problem, if it is indeed nailable or to switch to something else. I only get the chance to print every fortnight or so, though I'm going to try and make it weekly to make up for lost time. I'm not sure how much longer I want to get this paper working right only to find I don't have enough left for an edition! The Cranes natural white wove that I tested on was quite nice though thinner than the Diploma Parchment and therefore very weak when wet. I doubt I could get 11x14 easily in Australia. It's late here, I'm going to bed. Thanks to all list members for your valuable suggestions. Jon On 09/03/2010, at 4:17 PM, EJ Photo wrote: > Jon, The use of a hair dry or other warm air stream, should be used > with > caution around a pt/pd print as you know. The slight front or face > drying of > the print at a low level, and then a longer back side drying can > work with > great effectiveness. The resting time, will depend greatly on type > of metals > used and RH of environment. PD needs moisture much more so than PT > to both > print with speed and Dmax. So those experiencing lower Dmax may be > printing > with those conditions. Also the type of ferric, FO vs AFO will also > be a > factor. > > Test your ferric with the potassium ferrocynide test, a 1/4 > teaspoon in 25 > to 50ml of distilled water. Put a drop or two into the solution. If > it turns > blue your screwed. If it stays brown, your fine and the longer the > better > but it too will change. > > Table salt bath??? well that's a new one on me. If your looking for > colder > toned prints try making your palladium solution with ammonium chloride > instead of sodium. > > Eric Neilsen > Eric Neilsen Photography > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 > Dallas, TX 75226 > > www.ericneilsenphotography.com > skype me with ejprinter > www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1 > Let's Talk Photography > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On > Behalf Of > Jon Reid > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 4:53 PM > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment > > Hi all, > Thanks fro all your responses. > I didn't put all details into the post of every solution I had tried > as it was already getting unwieldy. > > I lent my sensitizer #1 solution to a friend just two weeks ago who > made a beautiful pure palladium print from it. It was made up fairly > recently from powdered stock that is <2 years old and always > refrigerated. I think it's alright. > > I'm using the black plastic from bags that silver-gelatin photo > papers come packaged in. It is what I normally use (though the last > few years I have been printing from digital inter-negatives that have > opaque borders and don't require masking.) The plastic is between > paper and negative, so piping shouldn't be the cause. > > With regards to drying the coated paper. I was taught, when I first > learnt platinum, to use warm/hot air from a hair dryer then rest the > paper to allow it to regain some humidity before exposure. I then > subsequently read that some people believe it reduces Dmax and > contrast so I started using cool air and or air drying before laying > the print on a rack over a bath of saturated salt solution (household > table salt). To be honest, that's when I thought the fogging was > getting worse. Perhaps it was too humid? > > I decided to try and simplify my process back to when it used to work > for me (when I used Platine), so this time I blasted with warm air, > then rested under safelights before exposure. My exposure unit is > black light tubes - fairly basic and standard. > > I tried a fresh batch of developer. I was favouring the 'cold bath' > version of KOx as per the Sullivan and Weese book as I don't want too > warm a tone however the interesting thing from the tests the other > night is that there was little difference in tone between that > version and straight KOx used at 21DegC. > > I gather no one else has had this problem as I have, so maybe it > isn't the paper. I'm frustrated to the nth, with 30 or so negs to > print for my debut solo show... > > Jon > > > On 09/03/2010, at 6:54 AM, EJ Photo wrote: > >> I haven't seen heat fog with that paper. It could very well be an >> issue with >> Ferric but replacing is NOT always needed. It could very well be that >> repairing it is in order. It could be a pH issue or all sorts of >> stuff. Try >> adding some more Oxalic acid to your ferric. Hair dryers should >> only be used >> lightly and primarily on the backside with low heat. >> >> >> I'd suspect the light bleed along the negative material; light >> piping. Try >> place the mask under it just for a test and see if it stops it. If >> you can't >> get it to stop, clear, or prevent the distraction of the fog, just >> coat the >> whole piece of paper. ; ) >> >> have you tried a fresh batch of developer? Is it possible that you >> were >> playing around with it and had some lithium in the mix? or gold >> that is >> fogging it? >> >> Eric >> >> Eric Neilsen >> Eric Neilsen Photography >> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 >> Dallas, TX 75226 >> >> www.ericneilsenphotography.com >> skype me with ejprinter >> www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1 >> Let's Talk Photography >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org >> [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On >> Behalf Of >> Diana Bloomfield >> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 7:27 AM >> To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment >> >> Jon, >> >> Have you printed any of these without using a hair dryer beforehand? >> I'm thinking your problem might be either exhausted ferric oxalate, >> and/or use of the hair dryer-- as well as allowing it to sit for an >> additional 15 minutes after using the hair dryer(?). I taught a >> workshop once where there was some evidence of fogging, but only for >> those people using hair dryers-- even when they set it on a "cool" >> setting. When we eliminated the use of hair dryers, the problem >> disappeared. Just a suggestion, but it's worth a try to switch to >> fresh ferric oxalate and skip the hair dryer. I also think certain >> papers are really a disaster for pt/pd. I used to use, many years, >> ago Cranes Platinotype (sp?), and I couldn't completely clear a print >> on that paper to save my life-- no matter what I used.. I never >> liked >> the Weston paper, either, but I know I'm in the minority there. I >> just don't like the weight of it. >> >> Diana >> >> >> On Mar 8, 2010, at 5:25 AM, Jon Reid wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I have been battling a problem for about 6 months now. At first I >>> thought it was a clearing problem then after trying various things >>> realised that it wasn't clearing but rather some density that was >>> appearing in the coated area of the paper that is masked during >>> exposure. The paper that I have been trying to print on is Weston >>> Diploma Parchment. I bought this paper in early 2008 from Bostick & >>> Sullivan and believe it is stock that was made by Cranes, not the >>> re- >>> invented Diploma Parchment Plat Pal being marketed by John Zowkowski >>> of Butler Dearden. >>> >>> I am wishing to print my 5x7 rollo-pyro negs on these 11x14 sheets >>> for my debut solo exhibition. I do not want to mat the prints so I >>> am trying for very clear coated-but-masked areas. The other night, >>> believing I was dealing with a fogging issue I set up darkroom >>> safelights and coated under those lights. I then used a hair dryer >>> and rested the paper in the room for 10-15min before exposure (11min >>> in my UV box), and developed in KOx (cold bath version-fresh) at >>> 21C. >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Tue Mar 9 11:16:33 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 13:16:33 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment In-Reply-To: References: <302A6F01-C862-488C-9558-6EE0990EEE59@sharperstill.com><68FC8DA8-206D-425D-B267-886C54FBB87C@bellsouth.net><4E6D86D6-AA9C-49F8-98FD-2206748C1B44@sharperstill.com><632DB2EEF7CE47BBB887E7FA79A61DA7@Eric64> Message-ID: The batch I had on hands behaved very well for print-out palladium. (AFO + Li doublesalt of Pd) I haven't tried with develop-out pt/pd. OTOH, it behaved well with Cyanotype too. Perhaps the batch you have is somehow contaminated or different than mine. If you're sure about your procedures and chemicals then I'd suggest that you switch papers and finish your project, especially if you're on a deadline. You may return back to the paper later... -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf Of Jon Reid Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 1:07 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment ... I guess I was hoping a whole bunch of people would reply saying 'yeah, that paper is kinda crap' and I'd feel OK about trying another. I quite like Platine but it is too heavy and white for this series of photographs. ... From clayh at clayharmon.com Tue Mar 9 11:38:40 2010 From: clayh at clayharmon.com (Clay Harmon Website) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 05:38:40 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment In-Reply-To: References: <302A6F01-C862-488C-9558-6EE0990EEE59@sharperstill.com><68FC8DA8-206D-425D-B267-886C54FBB87C@bellsouth.net> <4E6D86D6-AA9C-49F8-98FD-2206748C1B44@sharperstill.com> <632DB2EEF7CE47BBB887E7FA79A61DA7@Eric64> Message-ID: <081AAF49-50D0-44EB-8DB2-FC965C6B14B7@clayharmon.com> Well, if you are looking for paper recommendations, one of the Rives BFK Heavyweight (175gsm, i think) flavors comes in a buff colored version that might work for you. It is common enough that you should not have a problem getting hold of some. I buy mine in a local art supply store. It makes prints every bit as nice as the Weston paper, has much better wet strength, and is slightly more textured. If you can treat it for 5 minutes or so in a 2% oxalic bath, and then dry it before coating, I think you will a lot less frustrated. FWIW, with this paper, I coat it, let it absorb for about a minute, then use a hairdryer on cool to 'set' the coating and prevent it from going too deep into the paper. Then I let it rehumidify before printing. I am sure some others may chime in with some paper recommendations along the lines of what you are looking for. Clay On Mar 9, 2010, at 5:06 AM, Jon Reid wrote: > Eric, > > I guess I was hoping a whole bunch of people would reply saying 'yeah, that paper is kinda crap' and I'd feel OK about trying another. I quite like Platine but it is too heavy and white for this series of photographs. From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 9 13:22:05 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 08:22:05 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment In-Reply-To: References: <302A6F01-C862-488C-9558-6EE0990EEE59@sharperstill.com><68FC8DA8-206D-425D-B267-886C54FBB87C@bellsouth.net> <4E6D86D6-AA9C-49F8-98FD-2206748C1B44@sharperstill.com> <632DB2EEF7CE47BBB887E7FA79A61DA7@Eric64> Message-ID: Jon, I won't say "that paper is kinda crap," because a lot of people use it and have much success with it. I will say that I tried it for pt/pd and did not like it at all-- not only the weight and fragility of it, but I also just didn't like the look of the final prints. My feeling is, once you're shelling out beaucoup money for platinum and palladium, worrying about saving money on the paper doesn't make a lot of sense to me- if that's the only reason you're choosing to use it. I do like Arches Platine for pt/pd, as well as COT320, which you can get in an off-white or cream color-- though no one seems to have any in stock right now. I would still suggest, if you haven't done this already, to coat the paper and allow it to sit in the dark to air dry-- no fan, no hair dryer-- and see if that makes any difference at all. I don't know what your climate is like, but I also use a humidifier before I print-- literally holding the paper in the steam, and then coat. Just suggestions here, but maybe worth a try. Diana > > I guess I was hoping a whole bunch of people would reply saying > 'yeah, that paper is kinda crap' and I'd feel OK about trying > another. I quite like Platine but it is too heavy and white for this > series of photographs. > > To Diana: I have always used a hair dryer on these prints, mostly on > cool setting until the other night when I switched to warm to really > dry the bejeesus out of it. > From trevor at chalkjockeys.com Tue Mar 9 13:30:17 2010 From: trevor at chalkjockeys.com (Trevor Cunningham) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 16:30:17 +0300 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: paper In-Reply-To: <5ABEC2A7-67FC-496F-877C-058E4E5043EB@bellsouth.net> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> <002201cabd54$ba9d1640$c600a8c0@dell4600> <9E8BF753-BD04-4B7F-BC01-E87CA32B6B02@bellsouth.net> <4B946DE8.2030907@chalkjockeys.com> <5ABEC2A7-67FC-496F-877C-058E4E5043EB@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4B964D69.7080705@chalkjockeys.com> I get those two streets confused...it has a Taco Bell in the parking lot...I like that store. I wonder if they sell PVA there? Diana Bloomfield wrote: > Hi Trevor, > > It's Wake Forest Road-- parallel to Atlantic---but also (almost) right > at 440. > > Diana > > > On Mar 7, 2010, at 10:24 PM, Trevor Cunningham wrote: > >> Is that the one at atlantic and 440? >> > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From mail at loris.medici.name Tue Mar 9 13:33:34 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 15:33:34 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment In-Reply-To: References: <302A6F01-C862-488C-9558-6EE0990EEE59@sharperstill.com><68FC8DA8-206D-425D-B267-886C54FBB87C@bellsouth.net><4E6D86D6-AA9C-49F8-98FD-2206748C1B44@sharperstill.com><632DB2EEF7CE47BBB887E7FA79A61DA7@Eric64> Message-ID: <1CE67AC1B89D4CF0B2ED6D346D24F3FB@altinyildiz.trk> Diana, if that's due the base color, have you noticed that the paper becomes much more neutral after processing? I suspect my procadure of always developing/clearing pop pd prints in dilute (1 dessert spoon per liter) citric acid. Somehow, the paperlooks much less warm after that... -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf Of Diana Bloomfield Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 3:22 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment ... I won't say "that paper is kinda crap," because a lot of people use it and have much success with it. I will say that I tried it for pt/pd and did not like it at all-- not only the weight and fragility of it, but I also just didn't like the look of the final prints. ... From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 9 13:36:47 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 08:36:47 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: paper In-Reply-To: <4B964D69.7080705@chalkjockeys.com> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> <002201cabd54$ba9d1640$c600a8c0@dell4600> <9E8BF753-BD04-4B7F-BC01-E87CA32B6B02@bellsouth.net> <4B946DE8.2030907@chalkjockeys.com> <5ABEC2A7-67FC-496F-877C-058E4E5043EB@bellsouth.net> <4B964D69.7080705@chalkjockeys.com> Message-ID: <4D12F3F2-34C3-44B9-9445-EEBEC558C664@bellsouth.net> Hey Trevor, I get those two streets confused, too. I think maybe the Taco Bell isn't there anymore. ?? They now have a Trader Joe's-- a great improvement. Honestly, I've never noticed what else is in that little shopping center. I typically make a beeline for Trader Joe's and Jerry's, and don't look at anything else. I don't even like that part of town, and I've never driven past that shopping center. I'm terrified of 440. I'm an ITB person all the way. ;) And, yes, they sell lots of PVA there-- around $20 for the 32 oz container. Diana On Mar 9, 2010, at 8:30 AM, Trevor Cunningham wrote: > I get those two streets confused...it has a Taco Bell in the parking > lot...I like that store. I wonder if they sell PVA there? > From frangst at gmail.com Tue Mar 9 13:37:45 2010 From: frangst at gmail.com (francis schanberger) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 08:37:45 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment In-Reply-To: References: <302A6F01-C862-488C-9558-6EE0990EEE59@sharperstill.com> <68FC8DA8-206D-425D-B267-886C54FBB87C@bellsouth.net> <4E6D86D6-AA9C-49F8-98FD-2206748C1B44@sharperstill.com> <632DB2EEF7CE47BBB887E7FA79A61DA7@Eric64> Message-ID: <4c6fbba01003090537p6329c6a4g97cb6e59c81ba45c@mail.gmail.com> For Crane's White Wove (cover) try this link. It looks like it "may" be available as a special order item from B&H (and Formulary) and it is sized at 11 x 14. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/220810-REG/Photographers_Formulary_07_0147_Crane_s_90_Cover_Paper.html It may be immediately available from Formulary. http://www.photoformulary.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabindex=2&tabid=9&CategoryID=67&langID=0 -francis -- francis schanberger www.frangst.com From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 9 13:42:58 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 08:42:58 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment In-Reply-To: <1CE67AC1B89D4CF0B2ED6D346D24F3FB@altinyildiz.trk> References: <302A6F01-C862-488C-9558-6EE0990EEE59@sharperstill.com><68FC8DA8-206D-425D-B267-886C54FBB87C@bellsouth.net><4E6D86D6-AA9C-49F8-98FD-2206748C1B44@sharperstill.com><632DB2EEF7CE47BBB887E7FA79A61DA7@Eric64> <1CE67AC1B89D4CF0B2ED6D346D24F3FB@altinyildiz.trk> Message-ID: <0AEF9E61-5F8F-4B01-812A-2ED29CF3B383@bellsouth.net> Hi Loris, It's been so long since I tried it, but I do vaguely remember that-- kind of a surprise-- and I also use citric acid as a clearing bath. Maybe we should be using something else? I liked the COT320, but I would often get batches (it seemed to me) that didn't perform as well as some others. For some reason, the larger sizes of COT320 always seemed to offer better results. Or maybe that was just my imagination. Arches Platine is my favorite paper for pt/pd, though I'm doing lots more gum printing now and liking it so much better. It's so much more fun, and I'm saving a ton of money. It got to the point where I just couldn't justify the cost of pt/pd anymore. So now I still use it, but not all that often. Diana On Mar 9, 2010, at 8:33 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > Diana, if that's due the base color, have you noticed that the paper > becomes > much more neutral after processing? I suspect my procadure of always > developing/clearing pop pd prints in dilute (1 dessert spoon per > liter) > citric acid. Somehow, the paperlooks much less warm after that... > > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On > Behalf Of > Diana Bloomfield > Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 3:22 PM > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment > > ... > > I won't say "that paper is kinda crap," because a lot of people use > it and > have much success with it. I will say that I tried it for pt/pd and > did not > like it at all-- not only the weight and fragility of it, but I also > just > didn't like the look of the final prints. > > ... > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From donsbryant at gmail.com Tue Mar 9 13:51:43 2010 From: donsbryant at gmail.com (Don Bryant) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 08:51:43 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Cool Hair dryer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0D334771964F4737B6ECC30AA10A18BA@TravlinHP> Hello Everyone, > then use a hairdryer on cool to 'set' the coating and prevent it from going too deep into the paper. > Clay's advice to Jon reminded me that for years I've been looking for a hair dryer that has a cool or no heat setting. Does anyone have a specific source for a hair dryer like this? Thanks, Don Bryant From mail at loris.medici.name Tue Mar 9 13:50:59 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 15:50:59 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: paper In-Reply-To: <4D12F3F2-34C3-44B9-9445-EEBEC558C664@bellsouth.net> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> <002201cabd54$ba9d1640$c600a8c0@dell4600> <9E8BF753-BD04-4B7F-BC01-E87CA32B6B02@bellsouth.net> <4B946DE8.2030907@chalkjockeys.com><5ABEC2A7-67FC-496F-877C-058E4E5043EB@bellsouth.net><4B964D69.7080705@chalkjockeys.com> <4D12F3F2-34C3-44B9-9445-EEBEC558C664@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk> Google maps link: http://bit.ly/aXiwsb ??? -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf Of Diana Bloomfield Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 3:37 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: paper Hey Trevor, I get those two streets confused, too. I think maybe the Taco Bell isn't there anymore. ?? They now have a Trader Joe's-- a great improvement. Honestly, I've never noticed what else is in that little shopping center. I typically make a beeline for Trader Joe's and Jerry's, and don't look at anything else. I don't even like that part of town, and I've never driven past that shopping center. I'm terrified of 440. I'm an ITB person all the way. ;) And, yes, they sell lots of PVA there-- around $20 for the 32 oz container. Diana On Mar 9, 2010, at 8:30 AM, Trevor Cunningham wrote: > I get those two streets confused...it has a Taco Bell in the parking > lot...I like that store. I wonder if they sell PVA there? From john at johnbrewerphotography.com Tue Mar 9 13:55:09 2010 From: john at johnbrewerphotography.com (John Brewer) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 13:55:09 -0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Cool Hair dryer In-Reply-To: <0D334771964F4737B6ECC30AA10A18BA@TravlinHP> References: <0D334771964F4737B6ECC30AA10A18BA@TravlinHP> Message-ID: <001c01cabf90$218c0220$64a40660$@com> Hi Don, I use a regular hairdryer that I removed the heating element from for gum. John. -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Don Bryant Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 1:52 PM To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org Subject: [alt-photo] Cool Hair dryer Hello Everyone, > then use a hairdryer on cool to 'set' the coating and prevent it from going too deep into the paper. > Clay's advice to Jon reminded me that for years I've been looking for a hair dryer that has a cool or no heat setting. Does anyone have a specific source for a hair dryer like this? Thanks, Don Bryant _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2731 - Release Date: 03/08/10 19:33:00 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2731 - Release Date: 03/08/10 19:33:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2731 - Release Date: 03/08/10 19:33:00 From mail at loris.medici.name Tue Mar 9 14:00:26 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 16:00:26 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Cool Hair dryer In-Reply-To: <0D334771964F4737B6ECC30AA10A18BA@TravlinHP> References: <0D334771964F4737B6ECC30AA10A18BA@TravlinHP> Message-ID: <8184FBDEF18B463C8476D0BEA30EA513@altinyildiz.trk> I always used hair dryers with no cool air setting w/o any problems. You can't overheat the paper by accident; the evaporating water will actually cool it up to a point... JOOC, what is the reason of not wanting to use hot air? I guess it's more about habits, since it's manageable by adjusting the procedure... I was just about mentioning removing the heating element but John was quicker... ;) Regards, Loris. -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf Of Don Bryant Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 3:52 PM To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org Subject: [alt-photo] Cool Hair dryer Hello Everyone, > then use a hairdryer on cool to 'set' the coating and prevent it from going too deep into the paper. Clay's advice to Jon reminded me that for years I've been looking for a hair dryer that has a cool or no heat setting. Does anyone have a specific source for a hair dryer like this? From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 9 14:04:58 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:04:58 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: paper In-Reply-To: <977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> <002201cabd54$ba9d1640$c600a8c0@dell4600> <9E8BF753-BD04-4B7F-BC01-E87CA32B6B02@bellsouth.net> <4B946DE8.2030907@chalkjockeys.com><5ABEC2A7-67FC-496F-877C-058E4E5043EB@bellsouth.net><4B964D69.7080705@chalkjockeys.com> <4D12F3F2-34C3-44B9-9445-EEBEC558C664@bellsouth.net> <977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk> Message-ID: That's so funny. Where are you located, Loris? Diana On Mar 9, 2010, at 8:50 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > Google maps link: http://bit.ly/aXiwsb ??? > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On > Behalf Of > Diana Bloomfield > Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 3:37 PM > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: paper > > Hey Trevor, > > I get those two streets confused, too. I think maybe the Taco Bell > isn't > there anymore. ?? They now have a Trader Joe's-- a great > improvement. > Honestly, I've never noticed what else is in that little shopping > center. > I typically make a beeline for Trader Joe's and Jerry's, and don't > look at > anything else. I don't even like that part of town, and I've never > driven > past that shopping center. I'm > terrified of 440. I'm an ITB person all the way. ;) And, yes, they > sell lots of PVA there-- around $20 for the 32 oz container. > From mail at loris.medici.name Tue Mar 9 14:17:47 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 16:17:47 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: paper In-Reply-To: References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> <002201cabd54$ba9d1640$c600a8c0@dell4600> <9E8BF753-BD04-4B7F-BC01-E87CA32B6B02@bellsouth.net> <4B946DE8.2030907@chalkjockeys.com><5ABEC2A7-67FC-496F-877C-058E4E5043EB@bellsouth.net><4B964D69.7080705@chalkjockeys.com><4D12F3F2-34C3-44B9-9445-EEBEC558C664@bellsouth.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk> Message-ID: <1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk> Enter 41.009606, 28.815008 in the google.maps seachbox I'm exactly at the point of green arrow rigth now... :) -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf Of Diana Bloomfield Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 4:05 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: paper That's so funny. Where are you located, Loris? Diana On Mar 9, 2010, at 8:50 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > Google maps link: http://bit.ly/aXiwsb ??? > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf > Of Diana Bloomfield > Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 3:37 PM > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: paper > > Hey Trevor, > > I get those two streets confused, too. I think maybe the Taco Bell > isn't there anymore. ?? They now have a Trader Joe's-- a great > improvement. > Honestly, I've never noticed what else is in that little shopping > center. > I typically make a beeline for Trader Joe's and Jerry's, and don't > look at anything else. I don't even like that part of town, and I've > never driven past that shopping center. I'm > terrified of 440. I'm an ITB person all the way. ;) And, yes, they > sell lots of PVA there-- around $20 for the 32 oz container. > _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From john at johnbrewerphotography.com Tue Mar 9 14:33:37 2010 From: john at johnbrewerphotography.com (John Brewer) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 14:33:37 -0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: paper In-Reply-To: <1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> <002201cabd54$ba9d1640$c600a8c0@dell4600> <9E8BF753-BD04-4B7F-BC01-E87CA32B6B02@bellsouth.net> <4B946DE8.2030907@chalkjockeys.com><5ABEC2A7-67FC-496F-877C-058E4E5043EB@bellsouth.net><4B964D69.7080705@chalkjockeys.com><4D12F3F2-34C3-44B9-9445-EEBEC558C664@bellsouth.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk> <1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk> Message-ID: <004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com> If you click satellite you can Loris waving! -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Loris Medici Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 2:18 PM To: 'The alternative photographic processes mailing list' Subject: [alt-photo] Re: paper Enter 41.009606, 28.815008 in the google.maps seachbox I'm exactly at the point of green arrow rigth now... :) -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf Of Diana Bloomfield Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 4:05 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: paper That's so funny. Where are you located, Loris? Diana On Mar 9, 2010, at 8:50 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > Google maps link: http://bit.ly/aXiwsb ??? > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf > Of Diana Bloomfield > Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 3:37 PM > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: paper > > Hey Trevor, > > I get those two streets confused, too. I think maybe the Taco Bell > isn't there anymore. ?? They now have a Trader Joe's-- a great > improvement. > Honestly, I've never noticed what else is in that little shopping > center. > I typically make a beeline for Trader Joe's and Jerry's, and don't > look at anything else. I don't even like that part of town, and I've > never driven past that shopping center. I'm > terrified of 440. I'm an ITB person all the way. ;) And, yes, they > sell lots of PVA there-- around $20 for the 32 oz container. > _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2731 - Release Date: 03/08/10 19:33:00 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2731 - Release Date: 03/08/10 19:33:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2731 - Release Date: 03/08/10 19:33:00 From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 9 14:40:26 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:40:26 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] mapping In-Reply-To: <004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> <002201cabd54$ba9d1640$c600a8c0@dell4600> <9E8BF753-BD04-4B7F-BC01-E87CA32B6B02@bellsouth.net> <4B946DE8.2030907@chalkjockeys.com><5ABEC2A7-67FC-496F-877C-058E4E5043EB@bellsouth.net><4B964D69.7080705@chalkjockeys.com><4D12F3F2-34C3-44B9-9445-EEBEC558C664@bellsouth.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk> <1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk> <004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com> Message-ID: <854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net> Thanks for the visual, Loris. I'm gonna click the satellite now. :) Diana On Mar 9, 2010, at 9:33 AM, John Brewer wrote: > If you click satellite you can Loris waving! > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On > Behalf Of > Loris Medici > Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 2:18 PM > To: 'The alternative photographic processes mailing list' > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: paper > > Enter 41.009606, 28.815008 in the google.maps seachbox I'm exactly > at the > point of green arrow rigth now... :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On > Behalf Of > Diana Bloomfield From ctb at zeelandnet.nl Tue Mar 9 15:10:34 2010 From: ctb at zeelandnet.nl (Kees Brandenburg) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 16:10:34 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: mapping In-Reply-To: <854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> <002201cabd54$ba9d1640$c600a8c0@dell4600> <9E8BF753-BD04-4B7F-BC01-E87CA32B6B02@bellsouth.net> <4B946DE8.2030907@chalkjockeys.com><5ABEC2A7-67FC-496F-877C-058E4E5043EB@bellsouth.net><4B964D69.7080705@chalkjockeys.com><4D12F3F2-34C3-44B9-9445-EEBEC558C664@bellsouth.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk> <1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk> <004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com> <854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl> ... and some more mapping the [alt-photo] list maintenance (sub)headquarters, my studio and the polychrome.nl alt. photoworkshop location are under the green arrow at: 51.50524,3.624035 or http://tinyurl.com/ykdpnuj and also in malin's great alt map at: http://www.alternativephotography.com/wp/community/the-map -kees http://polychrome.nl On 9 mrt 2010, at 15:40, Diana Bloomfield wrote: > Thanks for the visual, Loris. I'm gonna click the satellite now. :) > > Diana From john at johnbrewerphotography.com Tue Mar 9 15:27:07 2010 From: john at johnbrewerphotography.com (John Brewer) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 15:27:07 -0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: mapping In-Reply-To: <8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> <002201cabd54$ba9d1640$c600a8c0@dell4600> <9E8BF753-BD04-4B7F-BC01-E87CA32B6B02@bellsouth.net> <4B946DE8.2030907@chalkjockeys.com><5ABEC2A7-67FC-496F-877C-058E4E5043EB@bellsouth.net><4B964D69.7080705@chalkjockeys.com><4D12F3F2-34C3-44B9-9445-EEBEC558C664@bellsouth.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk> <1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk> <004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com> <854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net> <8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl> Message-ID: <006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com> And this is where I work http://tinyurl.com/ykdpnuj J. -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Kees Brandenburg Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 3:11 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: mapping ... and some more mapping the [alt-photo] list maintenance (sub)headquarters, my studio and the polychrome.nl alt. photoworkshop location are under the green arrow at: 51.50524,3.624035 or http://tinyurl.com/ykdpnuj and also in malin's great alt map at: http://www.alternativephotography.com/wp/community/the-map -kees http://polychrome.nl On 9 mrt 2010, at 15:40, Diana Bloomfield wrote: > Thanks for the visual, Loris. I'm gonna click the satellite now. :) > > Diana _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2731 - Release Date: 03/08/10 19:33:00 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2731 - Release Date: 03/08/10 19:33:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2731 - Release Date: 03/08/10 19:33:00 From john at johnbrewerphotography.com Tue Mar 9 15:35:17 2010 From: john at johnbrewerphotography.com (John Brewer) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 15:35:17 -0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: mapping In-Reply-To: <006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net>, , <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> <002201cabd54$ba9d1640$c600a8c0@dell4600> <9E8BF753-BD04-4B7F-BC01-E87CA32B6B02@bellsouth.net> <4B946DE8.2030907@chalkjockeys.com><5ABEC2A7-67FC-496F-877C-058E4E5043EB@bellsouth.net><4B964D69.7080705@chalkjockeys.com><4D12F3F2-34C3-44B9-9445-EEBEC558C664@bellsouth.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk> <1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk> <004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com> <854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net> <8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl> <006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com> Message-ID: <007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com> Wrong URL, sorry, here's the correct one http://preview.tinyurl.com/ys9jrv J -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of John Brewer Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 3:27 PM To: 'The alternative photographic processes mailing list' Subject: [alt-photo] Re: mapping And this is where I work http://tinyurl.com/ykdpnuj J. -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Kees Brandenburg Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 3:11 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: mapping ... and some more mapping the [alt-photo] list maintenance (sub)headquarters, my studio and the polychrome.nl alt. photoworkshop location are under the green arrow at: 51.50524,3.624035 or http://tinyurl.com/ykdpnuj and also in malin's great alt map at: http://www.alternativephotography.com/wp/community/the-map -kees http://polychrome.nl On 9 mrt 2010, at 15:40, Diana Bloomfield wrote: > Thanks for the visual, Loris. I'm gonna click the satellite now. :) > > Diana _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2731 - Release Date: 03/08/10 19:33:00 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2731 - Release Date: 03/08/10 19:33:00 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2731 - Release Date: 03/08/10 19:33:00 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2731 - Release Date: 03/08/10 19:33:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2731 - Release Date: 03/08/10 19:33:00 From viapiano at pacbell.net Tue Mar 9 16:04:41 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 08:04:41 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Loris' location References: <0D334771964F4737B6ECC30AA10A18BA@TravlinHP> <8184FBDEF18B463C8476D0BEA30EA513@altinyildiz.trk> Message-ID: <004801cabfa2$3aa046b0$c600a8c0@dell4600> Loris... What is that large sea directly to your north? And the smaller one to the south? Thx...Paul From alt.list at albertonovo.it Tue Mar 9 16:09:11 2010 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 17:09:11 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: mapping In-Reply-To: <007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net> <001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600> <002201cabd54$ba9d1640$c600a8c0@dell4600> <9E8BF753-BD04-4B7F-BC01-E87CA32B6B02@bellsouth.net> <4B946DE8.2030907@chalkjockeys.com> <5ABEC2A7-67FC-496F-877C-058E4E5043EB@bellsouth.net> <4B964D69.7080705@chalkjockeys.com> <4D12F3F2-34C3-44B9-9445-EEBEC558C664@bellsouth.net> <977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk> <1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk> <004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com> <854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net> <8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl> <006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com> <007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com> Message-ID: <20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> NICE!!! I work here: 45.476181, 9.254736 but I live here: 45.425024, 12.327459 Alberto From viapiano at pacbell.net Tue Mar 9 16:17:10 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 08:17:10 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: mapping References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net><001501cabcd3$91053780$c600a8c0@dell4600><002201cabd54$ba9d1640$c600a8c0@dell4600><9E8BF753-BD04-4B7F-BC01-E87CA32B6B02@bellsouth.net><4B946DE8.2030907@chalkjockeys.com><5ABEC2A7-67FC-496F-877C-058E4E5043EB@bellsouth.net><4B964D69.7080705@chalkjockeys.com><4D12F3F2-34C3-44B9-9445-EEBEC558C664@bellsouth.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk><1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk><004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com><854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net><8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl><006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com><007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com> <20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> Message-ID: <004e01cabfa3$f9109b30$c600a8c0@dell4600> Wow! To live near Lake Como... Ah, the motherland...someday...someday... Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alberto Novo" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 8:09 AM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: mapping > NICE!!! > I work here: 45.476181, 9.254736 > but I live here: 45.425024, 12.327459 > Alberto > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Tue Mar 9 17:06:06 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 19:06:06 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Loris' location In-Reply-To: <004801cabfa2$3aa046b0$c600a8c0@dell4600> References: <0D334771964F4737B6ECC30AA10A18BA@TravlinHP> <8184FBDEF18B463C8476D0BEA30EA513@altinyildiz.trk> <004801cabfa2$3aa046b0$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: <725fa8581003090906r5489b2e4hac8b060200428221@mail.gmail.com> Paul just across the street on the North is the construction site of a shopping center, the site/land belongs to the firm I work for. On the South in the neighbouring area there's a center for wedding shopping and jewellery (labeled Kuyumcukent), there are hundreds of jewellery workshops and stores there... 2010/3/9 Paul Viapiano : > Loris... > > What is that large sea directly to your north? > > And the smaller one to the south? > > Thx...Paul From viapiano at pacbell.net Tue Mar 9 17:09:00 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:09:00 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Loris' location References: <0D334771964F4737B6ECC30AA10A18BA@TravlinHP><8184FBDEF18B463C8476D0BEA30EA513@altinyildiz.trk><004801cabfa2$3aa046b0$c600a8c0@dell4600> <725fa8581003090906r5489b2e4hac8b060200428221@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000301cabfab$3686fed0$c600a8c0@dell4600> Loris...what I meant was the two bodies of water. It seems like you're on an isthmus... p ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loris Medici" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 9:06 AM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Loris' location > Paul just across the street on the North is the construction site of a > shopping center, the site/land belongs to the firm I work for. On the > South in the neighbouring area there's a center for wedding shopping > and jewellery (labeled Kuyumcukent), there are hundreds of jewellery > workshops and stores there... > > 2010/3/9 Paul Viapiano : >> Loris... >> >> What is that large sea directly to your north? >> >> And the smaller one to the south? >> >> Thx...Paul > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From trevor at chalkjockeys.com Tue Mar 9 17:15:02 2010 From: trevor at chalkjockeys.com (Trevor Cunningham) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 20:15:02 +0300 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Loris' location In-Reply-To: <000301cabfab$3686fed0$c600a8c0@dell4600> References: <0D334771964F4737B6ECC30AA10A18BA@TravlinHP><8184FBDEF18B463C8476D0BEA30EA513@altinyildiz.trk><004801cabfa2$3aa046b0$c600a8c0@dell4600> <725fa8581003090906r5489b2e4hac8b060200428221@mail.gmail.com> <000301cabfab$3686fed0$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: <4B968216.6070206@chalkjockeys.com> I would imagine the body of water north of Turkey would be the Black Sea and south of the isthmus (Bosporus) would be the Sea of Marmara. Paul Viapiano wrote: > Loris...what I meant was the two bodies of water. It seems like you're > on an isthmus... > > p > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loris Medici" > > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 9:06 AM > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Loris' location > > >> Paul just across the street on the North is the construction site of a >> shopping center, the site/land belongs to the firm I work for. On the >> South in the neighbouring area there's a center for wedding shopping >> and jewellery (labeled Kuyumcukent), there are hundreds of jewellery >> workshops and stores there... >> >> 2010/3/9 Paul Viapiano : >>> Loris... >>> >>> What is that large sea directly to your north? >>> >>> And the smaller one to the south? >>> >>> Thx...Paul >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From mail at loris.medici.name Tue Mar 9 17:18:00 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 19:18:00 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: mapping In-Reply-To: <20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net> <977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk> <1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk> <004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com> <854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net> <8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl> <006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com> <007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com> <20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> Message-ID: <725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com> Alberto that's a pretty impressive way to come and go; do you stay in Milano in the workdays? The idea of such a long journey to work made me feel sick... Pretty nice place to live BTW, I didn't like much the center of Venice (because of the tourists/crowd, not that it isn't a beautiful place - also I must admit I found Venice a little bit claustrophobic...) but La Giudecca seems isolated enough and much greener... BTW, our "Giudecca" is located in the Goldern Horn, a district named Balat Best regards, Loris. 2010/3/9 Alberto Novo : > NICE!!! > I work here: 45.476181, 9.254736 > but I live here: 45.425024, 12.327459 > Alberto From mail at loris.medici.name Tue Mar 9 17:23:55 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 19:23:55 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Loris' location In-Reply-To: <4B968216.6070206@chalkjockeys.com> References: <0D334771964F4737B6ECC30AA10A18BA@TravlinHP> <8184FBDEF18B463C8476D0BEA30EA513@altinyildiz.trk> <004801cabfa2$3aa046b0$c600a8c0@dell4600> <725fa8581003090906r5489b2e4hac8b060200428221@mail.gmail.com> <000301cabfab$3686fed0$c600a8c0@dell4600> <4B968216.6070206@chalkjockeys.com> Message-ID: <725fa8581003090923y3731f590l332906dc5c2384ea@mail.gmail.com> Ooops sorry Paul, I misread. (And I wondered what was special about those areas!? Hehehehe...) Trevor is right. BTW, a special thing about Istanbul/Constantinople is that you cross the Bosphorus and you're in proper Asia, you come back and you're in proper Europe. Round trip takes 5-10 minutes with the bridges... Regards, Loris. 2010/3/9 Trevor Cunningham : > I would imagine the body of water north of Turkey would be the Black Sea and > south of the isthmus (Bosporus) would be the Sea of Marmara. > > Paul Viapiano wrote: >> >> Loris...what I meant was the two bodies of water. It seems like you're on >> an isthmus... >> >> p >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loris Medici" >> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 9:06 AM >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Loris' location >> >> >>> Paul just across the street on the North is the construction site of a >>> shopping center, the site/land belongs to the firm I work for. On the >>> South in the neighbouring area there's a center for wedding shopping >>> and jewellery (labeled Kuyumcukent), there are hundreds of jewellery >>> workshops and stores there... >>> >>> 2010/3/9 Paul Viapiano : >>>> >>>> Loris... >>>> >>>> What is that large sea directly to your north? >>>> >>>> And the smaller one to the south? >>>> >>>> Thx...Paul >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From walter23 at gmail.com Tue Mar 9 17:37:53 2010 From: walter23 at gmail.com (walter) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:37:53 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Cool hair dryer Message-ID: <77502711003090937t721867ady44f49cf31a15cb13@mail.gmail.com> Check thrift stores. You can find one that's pretty well guaranteed to be crappy (ie, low heat) for a buck or two. I got one in decent shape that has a high heat and low heat setting (which are like medium and low on a higher quality one), plus a button you press to make it blow entirely cold. Very handy. Cost $1. It looked new (but very cheap, junky plastic). From viapiano at pacbell.net Tue Mar 9 17:41:48 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 09:41:48 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Loris' location References: <0D334771964F4737B6ECC30AA10A18BA@TravlinHP><8184FBDEF18B463C8476D0BEA30EA513@altinyildiz.trk><004801cabfa2$3aa046b0$c600a8c0@dell4600><725fa8581003090906r5489b2e4hac8b060200428221@mail.gmail.com><000301cabfab$3686fed0$c600a8c0@dell4600><4B968216.6070206@chalkjockeys.com> <725fa8581003090923y3731f590l332906dc5c2384ea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001101cabfaf$cbdcfd00$c600a8c0@dell4600> Much thanks...it wasn't marked on the Google map...why not, hmm? Anyways, sorry for the off-thread geography questions...would love to visit that part of the world someday! Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loris Medici" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 9:23 AM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Loris' location > Ooops sorry Paul, I misread. (And I wondered what was special about > those areas!? Hehehehe...) > > Trevor is right. BTW, a special thing about Istanbul/Constantinople is > that you cross the Bosphorus and you're in proper Asia, you come back > and you're in proper Europe. Round trip takes 5-10 minutes with the > bridges... > > Regards, > Loris. > > 2010/3/9 Trevor Cunningham : >> I would imagine the body of water north of Turkey would be the Black Sea >> and >> south of the isthmus (Bosporus) would be the Sea of Marmara. >> >> Paul Viapiano wrote: >>> >>> Loris...what I meant was the two bodies of water. It seems like you're >>> on >>> an isthmus... >>> >>> p >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loris Medici" >>> >>> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 9:06 AM >>> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Loris' location >>> >>> >>>> Paul just across the street on the North is the construction site of a >>>> shopping center, the site/land belongs to the firm I work for. On the >>>> South in the neighbouring area there's a center for wedding shopping >>>> and jewellery (labeled Kuyumcukent), there are hundreds of jewellery >>>> workshops and stores there... >>>> >>>> 2010/3/9 Paul Viapiano : >>>>> >>>>> Loris... >>>>> >>>>> What is that large sea directly to your north? >>>>> >>>>> And the smaller one to the south? >>>>> >>>>> Thx...Paul >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From mustafaumutsarac at gmail.com Tue Mar 9 18:02:21 2010 From: mustafaumutsarac at gmail.com (Mustafa Umut Sarac) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 20:02:21 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Loris' location In-Reply-To: <725fa8581003090923y3731f590l332906dc5c2384ea@mail.gmail.com> References: <0D334771964F4737B6ECC30AA10A18BA@TravlinHP> <8184FBDEF18B463C8476D0BEA30EA513@altinyildiz.trk> <004801cabfa2$3aa046b0$c600a8c0@dell4600> <725fa8581003090906r5489b2e4hac8b060200428221@mail.gmail.com> <000301cabfab$3686fed0$c600a8c0@dell4600> <4B968216.6070206@chalkjockeys.com> <725fa8581003090923y3731f590l332906dc5c2384ea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Paul , I live in Istanbul also. Turkish coastline is wonderful . We call Blacksea , Karadeniz , Than Bosphorus strait , than Marmara Sea , than Ege and Med. You can have a look from Google Earth also. There are thousands of archeological sites at these lines and you will experience greatness of our history . Istanbul , Izmir , Mugla and Antalya are the centers of tourists interest. I am sorry I think there are no good webcams over there But end of the april is end of the rains and cold weather and you will like it. Spend good time at google earth . If you have any question , We will happy to answer you. Umut Istanbul From jseigel at panix.com Wed Mar 10 01:50:03 2010 From: jseigel at panix.com (Judy Seigel) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 20:50:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment In-Reply-To: <0AEF9E61-5F8F-4B01-812A-2ED29CF3B383@bellsouth.net> References: <302A6F01-C862-488C-9558-6EE0990EEE59@sharperstill.com><68FC8DA8-206D-425D-B267-886C54FBB87C@bellsouth.net><4E6D86D6-AA9C-49F8-98FD-2206748C1B44@sharperstill.com><632DB2EEF7CE47BBB887E7FA79A61DA7@Eric64> <1CE67AC1B89D4CF0B2ED6D346D24F3FB@altinyildiz.trk> <0AEF9E61-5F8F-4B01-812A-2ED29CF3B383@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Mar 2010, Diana Bloomfield wrote: > .... I'm doing lots more gum printing now and liking it so much better. > It's so much more fun, and I'm saving a ton of money. Ah, Diana... ain't it the truth... & it gets more & more fun as we get braver & bolder... J. From alt.list at albertonovo.it Wed Mar 10 07:25:23 2010 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:25:23 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: mapping In-Reply-To: <725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net> <977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk> <1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk> <004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com> <854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net> <8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl> <006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com> <007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com> <20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> > Alberto that's a pretty impressive way to come and go; do you stay in > Milano in the workdays? The idea of such a long journey to work made > me feel sick... I do this since 1985... each monday morning I wake up at 3.40 and go by train to Milan, coming back home on friday at 19:00. I have 4 nights to spent printing and experimenting... > Pretty nice place to live BTW, I didn't like much the center of Venice > (because of the tourists/crowd, not that it isn't a beautiful place - > also I must admit I found Venice a little bit claustrophobic...) but > La Giudecca seems isolated enough and much greener... BTW, our > "Giudecca" is located in the Goldern Horn, a district named Balat The island (not really only one, but we call so also Murano and Burano) of Giudecca is far enough from the tourists and is much more quiet. Our group had an Autumn meeting there some years ago and it was very appreciated. When we went on the Riva degli Schiavoni (in front of San Giorgio island) we lost some members from the group in a few minutes, sucked by "the crowd". Alberto From viapiano at pacbell.net Wed Mar 10 22:41:38 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 14:41:38 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Yupo as a support References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk><1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk><004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com><854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net><8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl><006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com><007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com><20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com> <20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> Message-ID: <000501cac0a2$d92e0ff0$c600a8c0@dell4600> Hey all... Just a quick shout to tell you about a synthetic paper called Yupo I'm going to try as a support for thin pt/pd papers, such as Bienfang 360 and the Japanese tissues. It's available in almost any art store, comes in a pad, many sizes. Made of 100% polypropylene, I'm just wondering what I should use to attach the paper to the support? Maybe those round plastic paper clips... Has anyone tried Yupo for this purpose? Hope you're all having a great print day! Paul From geoff at geoffgallery.net Thu Mar 11 00:57:58 2010 From: geoff at geoffgallery.net (geoff chaplin) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 00:57:58 -0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Yupo as a support In-Reply-To: <000501cac0a2$d92e0ff0$c600a8c0@dell4600> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk><1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk><004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com><854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net><8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl><006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com><007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com><20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com><20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <000501cac0a2$d92e0ff0$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: Yupo is the standard support for the temperaprint process (dichromate / eggs / pigment). Gum and casein (alternative colloids to egg) do not stick effectively whereas eggs do. No idea whether pt/pd will work with it without some preliminary layer to give tack - I'd be surprised but let us know! Geoff Chaplin ?????????? geoff at geoffgallery.net www.geoffgallery.net Skype: geoffchaplin1611 UK mobile (???????): +44(0) 7770 787069 Japan mobile (???????): +81(0) 90 6440 7037 Japan land line / fax (??????????): +81(0) 166 92 5855 -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Paul Viapiano Sent: 10 March 2010 22:42 To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Yupo as a support Hey all... Just a quick shout to tell you about a synthetic paper called Yupo I'm going to try as a support for thin pt/pd papers, such as Bienfang 360 and the Japanese tissues. It's available in almost any art store, comes in a pad, many sizes. Made of 100% polypropylene, I'm just wondering what I should use to attach the paper to the support? Maybe those round plastic paper clips... Has anyone tried Yupo for this purpose? Hope you're all having a great print day! Paul _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From gws1 at columbia.edu Thu Mar 11 01:31:19 2010 From: gws1 at columbia.edu (Greg Schmitz) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 16:31:19 -0900 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Yupo as a support In-Reply-To: References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk><1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk><004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com><854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net><8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl><006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com><007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com><20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com><20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <000501cac0a2$d92e0ff0$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: <4B9847E7.9090600@columbia.edu> I seem to recall a lengthy discussion about the use of Yupo as a support. You might want to check the archives before you embark on your testing. --greg schmitz On 3/10/10 3:57 PM, geoff chaplin wrote: > Yupo is the standard support for the temperaprint process (dichromate / eggs > / pigment). Gum and casein (alternative colloids to egg) do not stick > effectively whereas eggs do. No idea whether pt/pd will work with it without > some preliminary layer to give tack - I'd be surprised but let us know! > > Geoff Chaplin > ?????????? > > geoff at geoffgallery.net > www.geoffgallery.net > Skype: geoffchaplin1611 > UK mobile (???????): +44(0) 7770 787069 > Japan mobile (???????): +81(0) 90 6440 7037 > Japan land line / fax (??????????): +81(0) 166 92 5855 > From jeremydmoore at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 01:33:28 2010 From: jeremydmoore at gmail.com (Jeremy Moore) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 19:33:28 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Yupo as a support In-Reply-To: <000501cac0a2$d92e0ff0$c600a8c0@dell4600> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net> <004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com> <854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net> <8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl> <006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com> <007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com> <20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com> <20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <000501cac0a2$d92e0ff0$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: <66575de71003101733xf4fa832kfb765bb26a1ce289@mail.gmail.com> Paul, I would suggest trying the Clearprint drafting vellum instead of the Bienfang if you have any interest in testing a different paper. I can run the clearprint through the wet processing w/o any support with no problems. Bienfang 360 is like wet tissue paper in comparison. -Jeremy- On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 4:41 PM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > Hey all... > > Just a quick shout to tell you about a synthetic paper called Yupo I'm > going to try as a support for thin pt/pd papers, such as Bienfang 360 and > the Japanese tissues. It's available in almost any art store, comes in a > pad, many sizes. Made of 100% polypropylene, I'm just wondering what I > should use to attach the paper to the support? Maybe those round plastic > paper clips... > > Has anyone tried Yupo for this purpose? > > Hope you're all having a great print day! > > Paul > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From frangst at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 01:39:02 2010 From: frangst at gmail.com (francis schanberger) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 20:39:02 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Yupo as a support In-Reply-To: <66575de71003101733xf4fa832kfb765bb26a1ce289@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net> <854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net> <8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl> <006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com> <007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com> <20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com> <20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <000501cac0a2$d92e0ff0$c600a8c0@dell4600> <66575de71003101733xf4fa832kfb765bb26a1ce289@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4c6fbba01003101739n74fad42cn7b72a718176ebcb0@mail.gmail.com> Isn't Paul just using Yupo as a viewing support / backing? I don't have a solution for attaching the two. I've been using the self-adhesive linen hinging tape to attach the vandyke browns on Kozo Unryu to mat board as a backing ( in framed work that I float). I create a T or H shape out of the scraps of Kozu that I have torn down. This gets used as a bridge between the backing board and the paper on which the vandykes are printed. -francis On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Jeremy Moore wrote: > Paul, > > I would suggest trying the Clearprint drafting vellum instead of the > Bienfang if you have any interest in testing a different paper. I can run > the clearprint through the wet processing w/o any support with no problems. > Bienfang 360 is like wet tissue paper in comparison. > > -Jeremy- > > On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 4:41 PM, Paul Viapiano > wrote: > > > Hey all... > > > > Just a quick shout to tell you about a synthetic paper called Yupo I'm > > going to try as a support for thin pt/pd papers, such as Bienfang 360 and > > the Japanese tissues. It's available in almost any art store, comes in a > > pad, many sizes. Made of 100% polypropylene, I'm just wondering what I > > should use to attach the paper to the support? Maybe those round plastic > > paper clips... > > > > Has anyone tried Yupo for this purpose? > > > > Hope you're all having a great print day! > > > > Paul > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > -- francis schanberger www.frangst.com From jeremydmoore at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 01:40:53 2010 From: jeremydmoore at gmail.com (Jeremy Moore) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 19:40:53 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Yupo as a support In-Reply-To: <4c6fbba01003101739n74fad42cn7b72a718176ebcb0@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net> <8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl> <006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com> <007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com> <20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com> <20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <000501cac0a2$d92e0ff0$c600a8c0@dell4600> <66575de71003101733xf4fa832kfb765bb26a1ce289@mail.gmail.com> <4c6fbba01003101739n74fad42cn7b72a718176ebcb0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <66575de71003101740i75ba375fncde679e922d67c33@mail.gmail.com> I don't know. I assumed it was for processing through the wet stages as any archival paper could be used for viewing support/backing, imo. -jeremy- On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 7:39 PM, francis schanberger wrote: > Isn't Paul just using Yupo as a viewing support / backing? > > I don't have a solution for attaching the two. I've been using the > self-adhesive linen hinging tape to attach the vandyke browns on Kozo Unryu > to mat board as a backing ( in framed work that I float). I create a T or H > shape out of the scraps of Kozu that I have torn down. This gets used as a > bridge between the backing board and the paper on which the vandykes are > printed. > > -francis > > From viapiano at pacbell.net Thu Mar 11 05:30:51 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:30:51 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Yupo as a support References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net><854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net><8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl><006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com><007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com><20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com><20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it><000501cac0a2$d92e0ff0$c600a8c0@dell4600><66575de71003101733xf4fa832kfb765bb26a1ce289@mail.gmail.com> <4c6fbba01003101739n74fad42cn7b72a718176ebcb0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001801cac0dc$03dca390$c600a8c0@dell4600> Yes...as I said in my original post, going to try using Yupo as a support for thin papers, in the developing and clearing baths. The word "support" is used in carbon printing to mean the final resting place of the image, so I guess there was some confusion. Maybe I should have said "carrier". Francis, can you email me a photo or diagram of how you're mounting. I don't understand how your "torn scraps" attach to the actual artwork and then to the mat board. Thanks...! Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "francis schanberger" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 5:39 PM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Yupo as a support > Isn't Paul just using Yupo as a viewing support / backing? > > I don't have a solution for attaching the two. I've been using the > self-adhesive linen hinging tape to attach the vandyke browns on Kozo > Unryu > to mat board as a backing ( in framed work that I float). I create a T or > H > shape out of the scraps of Kozu that I have torn down. This gets used as a > bridge between the backing board and the paper on which the vandykes are > printed. > > -francis > > On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Jeremy Moore > wrote: > >> Paul, >> >> I would suggest trying the Clearprint drafting vellum instead of the >> Bienfang if you have any interest in testing a different paper. I can run >> the clearprint through the wet processing w/o any support with no >> problems. >> Bienfang 360 is like wet tissue paper in comparison. >> >> -Jeremy- >> >> On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 4:41 PM, Paul Viapiano >> wrote: >> >> > Hey all... >> > >> > Just a quick shout to tell you about a synthetic paper called Yupo I'm >> > going to try as a support for thin pt/pd papers, such as Bienfang 360 >> > and >> > the Japanese tissues. It's available in almost any art store, comes in >> > a >> > pad, many sizes. Made of 100% polypropylene, I'm just wondering what I >> > should use to attach the paper to the support? Maybe those round >> > plastic >> > paper clips... >> > >> > Has anyone tried Yupo for this purpose? >> > >> > Hope you're all having a great print day! >> > >> > Paul >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > > > > -- > francis schanberger > > www.frangst.com > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Thu Mar 11 06:16:38 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:16:38 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Yupo as a support In-Reply-To: <000501cac0a2$d92e0ff0$c600a8c0@dell4600> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk><1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk><004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com><854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net><8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl><006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com><007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com><20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com><20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <000501cac0a2$d92e0ff0$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: <08025CEB410C4824A89C7B7C64CA4EEE@altinyildiz.trk> Yupo could work indeed, OTOH, how about a piece of window mesh screen? -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf Of Paul Viapiano Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 12:42 AM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Yupo as a support ... Just a quick shout to tell you about a synthetic paper called Yupo I'm going to try as a support for thin pt/pd papers, such as Bienfang 360 and the Japanese tissues. ... Has anyone tried Yupo for this purpose? From stratton at sunlink.net Thu Mar 11 12:21:55 2010 From: stratton at sunlink.net (Chris & Nancy Stratton) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 07:21:55 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Yupo as a support vs Fabriano Artistico for temperaprint In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100311072155.0f4c246d.stratton@sunlink.net> I wonder if anyone has tried using the acid washed Fabriano Artistico paper for temperaprint. It sounds tempting, as it might register well enough, after being 'pre-shrunk'?... or perhaps the 'tooth' of the paper gets to be 'out of hand' for this purpose with the repeated washings/gentle brushing for the removal of un-exposed dichromate/pigment? Chris -- Chris & Nancy Stratton From mail at loris.medici.name Thu Mar 11 12:45:30 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:45:30 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Yupo as a support vs Fabriano Artistico for temperaprint In-Reply-To: <20100311072155.0f4c246d.stratton@sunlink.net> References: <20100311072155.0f4c246d.stratton@sunlink.net> Message-ID: A slick surface - such as Yupo - would work much better than Fabriano Artistico. With temperaprint the exposed layer is not much soluble therefore you develop by abrasion; with Fabriano this may lead to excessive staining of the base and/or may cause harm to the surface... Plus, you often need to do many thin layers with temperaprint (>= 6), therefore a quick drying support is much better for sake of keeping your motivation up. (Watercolor paper takes considerable time to dry; 2-3 hours minimum...) As a last note: You don't need to neutralize the paper for temperaprint; the process isn't affected negatively from the alkaline buffer. (Maybe slight speed loss - if any...) Regards, Loris. -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf Of Chris & Nancy Stratton Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 2:22 PM To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org Subject: [alt-photo] Yupo as a support vs Fabriano Artistico for temperaprint I wonder if anyone has tried using the acid washed Fabriano Artistico paper for temperaprint. It sounds tempting, as it might register well enough, after being 'pre-shrunk'?... or perhaps the 'tooth' of the paper gets to be 'out of hand' for this purpose with the repeated washings/gentle brushing for the removal of un-exposed dichromate/pigment? From C.Breukel at lumc.nl Thu Mar 11 15:06:33 2010 From: C.Breukel at lumc.nl (C.Breukel at lumc.nl) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:06:33 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Metalotype In-Reply-To: <20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk><1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk><004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com><854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net><8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl><006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com><007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com><20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com> <20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> Message-ID: <1FE362630FC8FA4EBE5B48CB301588AAA45C72@mailh.lumcnet.prod.intern> Got this mail form Mike Ware some time ago (I am on a mailing list of mike, guess some people already heard about it). Anyway: food for thought I guess.... Cor >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> Metalotype: Metal-jet Printing The current practice of Hybrid Digital-Alternative Printing involves making large negatives digitally with an inkjet printer, in order to contact-print them photographically onto hand-coated 'alternative' sensitized papers of the 'single-layer' category, such as cyanotype, argyrotype, palladiotype, platinotype and chrysotype. With the advance of digital printing technology, this wasteful and complex procedure could soon become redundant: to obtain an identical result, it would only be necessary to fill an inkjet printer cartridge with a solution of Chemical A, and print the 'potential image' onto a sheet of fine paper. This would then be 'developed' in a solution of Chemical B, which reacts with Chemical A to produce the desired image substance in situ, probably in nanoparticle form; the print is then washed and dried. Depending on the choice of Chemicals A and B, the result could be a plain paper print in: Prussian blue, silver, palladium, platinum or gold, with the image substance embedded in the surface fibres of the paper, just the same as hand-coated siderotypes printed photochemically - and laboriously - from negatives. Such prints should be indistinguishable in their chemical and physical structure from those made by the traditional methods. I suggest the names Metal-jet Printing or Metalotype for this procedure. It would have the following advantages: 1) It would eliminate all the alternative photographic paraphernalia: no UV light sources, printing frames or vacuum easels, coating implements, safe lighting, photosensitive chemicals, etc. This might encourage more digital photographers to try 'alternative' image substances and fine papers. 2) It would eliminate the large internegative - which is costly in ceramic-coated film and pigment printer inks. 3) The wet processing procedure would be simple, reusable, economic, and eco-friendly. 4) For a print of an 'average scene', it would consume less than one tenth of the amount of precious metal required at present, because none is washed away in the processing. Saving over 90% of the cost of platinum, palladium, silver, or gold would be a significant benefit which could widen the appeal and use of these precious metals as print media. The possibilities do not end there, however: because there is no need for the imaging system to be photochemical, a wide range of simple chemical reactions - by metathesis or by reduction-oxidation - could be employed to make digital photographic prints on plain paper in all sorts of stable pigments never previously usable; for instance, the insoluble sulphides, selenides, chromates, and iodides of various heavy metals such as lead, bismuth, mercury, cadmium or silver. Besides the familiar Prussian blue, other coloured ferrocyanides and ferricyanides are possible. In addition to the traditional platinum, palladium and gold, the other 'noble' metals could be reduced, as images in rhenium, ruthenium, rhodium, osmium and iridium (should anyone wish to do so). Three-colour printing should also be possible. Other metals and more exotic pigments will suggest themselves to the inventive chemist as potential image substances, but the chemistry required is mostly elementary - CM 101. The difficulties could be expected to arise with achieving an appropriate rheology of the "ink" solution of Chemical A for the piezoelectric printheads, by adjusting its surface tension and viscosity parameters for the best distribution in the cellulose paper fibres. Doubtless these are deep commercial secrets, already well-understood by the manufacturers of printer inks. A benefit would come from the "ink" being a true solution, not a particulate suspension, so there would be no problems of clogged printheads; there may however be issues of corrosion and toxicity with some chemicals. Is there anyone out there with the technical know-how to convert an inkjet printer to this use? I'm just amazed that it seems not to have been done already. A chemically-dedicated inkjet printer could simply eliminate the negative and the photochemistry. This is the logical end result of 'hybrid practices' using digital technology. Unless one chose to embrace pure analogue photographic practice, it would be time to bid farewell to all siderotypes! (Meanwhile, I continue to make them...) Mike Ware, March 2010 Dr Mike Ware 20 Bath Road Buxton Derbyshire SK17 6HH UK +44 (0)1298 78604 mike at mikeware.co.uk http://www.mikeware.co.uk From bb333 at earthlink.net Thu Mar 11 15:56:41 2010 From: bb333 at earthlink.net (Bob Barnes) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:56:41 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotype In-Reply-To: <1FE362630FC8FA4EBE5B48CB301588AAA45C72@mailh.lumcnet.prod.intern> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk><1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk><004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com><854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net><8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl><006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com><007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com><20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com> <20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <1FE362630FC8FA4EBE5B48CB301588AAA45C72@mailh.lumcnet.prod.intern> Message-ID: Whoa....maybe it's only a matter of time! Thanks Cor! On Mar 11, 2010, at 9:06 AM, wrote: > Got this mail form Mike Ware some time ago (I am on a mailing list of > mike, guess some people already heard about it). Anyway: food for > thought I guess.... > > Cor > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> > > Metalotype: Metal-jet Printing > > > The current practice of Hybrid Digital-Alternative Printing involves > making large negatives digitally with an inkjet printer, in order to > contact-print them photographically onto hand-coated 'alternative' > sensitized papers of the 'single-layer' category, such as cyanotype, > argyrotype, palladiotype, platinotype and chrysotype. > > > With the advance of digital printing technology, this wasteful and > complex procedure could soon become redundant: to obtain an identical > result, it would only be necessary to fill an inkjet printer cartridge > with a solution of Chemical A, and print the 'potential image' onto a > sheet of fine paper. This would then be 'developed' in a solution of > Chemical B, which reacts with Chemical A to produce the desired image > substance in situ, probably in nanoparticle form; the print is then > washed and dried. Depending on the choice of Chemicals A and B, the > result could be a plain paper print in: Prussian blue, silver, > palladium, platinum or gold, with the image substance embedded in the > surface fibres of the paper, just the same as hand-coated siderotypes > printed photochemically - and laboriously - from negatives. > > > Such prints should be indistinguishable in their chemical and physical > structure from those made by the traditional methods. > I suggest the names Metal-jet Printing or Metalotype for this > procedure. > It would have the following advantages: > > > 1) It would eliminate all the alternative photographic > paraphernalia: no > UV light sources, printing frames or vacuum easels, coating > implements, > safe lighting, photosensitive chemicals, etc. This might encourage > more > digital photographers to try 'alternative' image substances and fine > papers. > > > 2) It would eliminate the large internegative - which is costly in > ceramic-coated film and pigment printer inks. > > > 3) The wet processing procedure would be simple, reusable, > economic, and > eco-friendly. > > > 4) For a print of an 'average scene', it would consume less than one > tenth of the amount of precious metal required at present, because > none > is washed away in the processing. Saving over 90% of the cost of > platinum, palladium, silver, or gold would be a significant benefit > which could widen the appeal and use of these precious metals as print > media. > > > The possibilities do not end there, however: because there is no need > for the imaging system to be photochemical, a wide range of simple > chemical reactions - by metathesis or by reduction-oxidation - > could be > employed to make digital photographic prints on plain paper in all > sorts > of stable pigments never previously usable; for instance, the > insoluble > sulphides, selenides, chromates, and iodides of various heavy metals > such as lead, bismuth, mercury, cadmium or silver. Besides the > familiar > Prussian blue, other coloured ferrocyanides and ferricyanides are > possible. In addition to the traditional platinum, palladium and gold, > the other 'noble' metals could be reduced, as images in rhenium, > ruthenium, rhodium, osmium and iridium (should anyone wish to do so). > Three-colour printing should also be possible. Other metals and more > exotic pigments will suggest themselves to the inventive chemist as > potential image substances, but the chemistry required is mostly > elementary - CM 101. > > > The difficulties could be expected to arise with achieving an > appropriate rheology of the "ink" solution of Chemical A for the > piezoelectric printheads, by adjusting its surface tension and > viscosity > parameters for the best distribution in the cellulose paper fibres. > Doubtless these are deep commercial secrets, already well- > understood by > the manufacturers of printer inks. A benefit would come from the "ink" > being a true solution, not a particulate suspension, so there would be > no problems of clogged printheads; there may however be issues of > corrosion and toxicity with some chemicals. > > > Is there anyone out there with the technical know-how to convert an > inkjet printer to this use? I'm just amazed that it seems not to have > been done already. A chemically-dedicated inkjet printer could simply > eliminate the negative and the photochemistry. This is the logical end > result of 'hybrid practices' using digital technology. Unless one > chose > to embrace pure analogue photographic practice, it would be time to > bid > farewell to all siderotypes! > (Meanwhile, I continue to make them...) > Mike Ware, March 2010 > > > > > > > Dr Mike Ware > 20 Bath Road > Buxton > Derbyshire > SK17 6HH > UK > > > +44 (0)1298 78604 > mike at mikeware.co.uk > http://www.mikeware.co.uk > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From jeremydmoore at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 16:01:44 2010 From: jeremydmoore at gmail.com (Jeremy Moore) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:01:44 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotype In-Reply-To: References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net> <854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net> <8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl> <006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com> <007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com> <20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com> <20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <1FE362630FC8FA4EBE5B48CB301588AAA45C72@mailh.lumcnet.prod.intern> Message-ID: <66575de71003110801x6e4b7f51j5bd4bbe01b4e5a6c@mail.gmail.com> I enjoy the process :-) -Jeremy- On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 9:56 AM, Bob Barnes wrote: > Whoa....maybe it's only a matter of time! > Thanks Cor! > > From bb333 at earthlink.net Thu Mar 11 16:03:51 2010 From: bb333 at earthlink.net (Bob Barnes) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:03:51 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotype In-Reply-To: <1FE362630FC8FA4EBE5B48CB301588AAA45C72@mailh.lumcnet.prod.intern> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk><1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk><004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com><854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net><8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl><006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com><007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com><20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com> <20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <1FE362630FC8FA4EBE5B48CB301588AAA45C72@mailh.lumcnet.prod.intern> Message-ID: <031C05EB-F721-4F5B-8DF5-70A59629D102@earthlink.net> I just wanted to add that I have already wondered about his....but not only metal substrates... maybe 100% rag board Maybe Epson could work towards pioneering this new photographic idea with an inkjet made for this On Mar 11, 2010, at 9:06 AM, wrote: > Got this mail form Mike Ware some time ago (I am on a mailing list of > mike, guess some people already heard about it). Anyway: food for > thought I guess.... > > Cor > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> > > Metalotype: Metal-jet Printing > > > The current practice of Hybrid Digital-Alternative Printing involves > making large negatives digitally with an inkjet printer, in order to > contact-print them photographically onto hand-coated 'alternative' > sensitized papers of the 'single-layer' category, such as cyanotype, > argyrotype, palladiotype, platinotype and chrysotype. > > > With the advance of digital printing technology, this wasteful and > complex procedure could soon become redundant: to obtain an identical > result, it would only be necessary to fill an inkjet printer cartridge > with a solution of Chemical A, and print the 'potential image' onto a > sheet of fine paper. This would then be 'developed' in a solution of > Chemical B, which reacts with Chemical A to produce the desired image > substance in situ, probably in nanoparticle form; the print is then > washed and dried. Depending on the choice of Chemicals A and B, the > result could be a plain paper print in: Prussian blue, silver, > palladium, platinum or gold, with the image substance embedded in the > surface fibres of the paper, just the same as hand-coated siderotypes > printed photochemically - and laboriously - from negatives. > > > Such prints should be indistinguishable in their chemical and physical > structure from those made by the traditional methods. > I suggest the names Metal-jet Printing or Metalotype for this > procedure. > It would have the following advantages: > > > 1) It would eliminate all the alternative photographic > paraphernalia: no > UV light sources, printing frames or vacuum easels, coating > implements, > safe lighting, photosensitive chemicals, etc. This might encourage > more > digital photographers to try 'alternative' image substances and fine > papers. > > > 2) It would eliminate the large internegative - which is costly in > ceramic-coated film and pigment printer inks. > > > 3) The wet processing procedure would be simple, reusable, > economic, and > eco-friendly. > > > 4) For a print of an 'average scene', it would consume less than one > tenth of the amount of precious metal required at present, because > none > is washed away in the processing. Saving over 90% of the cost of > platinum, palladium, silver, or gold would be a significant benefit > which could widen the appeal and use of these precious metals as print > media. > > > The possibilities do not end there, however: because there is no need > for the imaging system to be photochemical, a wide range of simple > chemical reactions - by metathesis or by reduction-oxidation - > could be > employed to make digital photographic prints on plain paper in all > sorts > of stable pigments never previously usable; for instance, the > insoluble > sulphides, selenides, chromates, and iodides of various heavy metals > such as lead, bismuth, mercury, cadmium or silver. Besides the > familiar > Prussian blue, other coloured ferrocyanides and ferricyanides are > possible. In addition to the traditional platinum, palladium and gold, > the other 'noble' metals could be reduced, as images in rhenium, > ruthenium, rhodium, osmium and iridium (should anyone wish to do so). > Three-colour printing should also be possible. Other metals and more > exotic pigments will suggest themselves to the inventive chemist as > potential image substances, but the chemistry required is mostly > elementary - CM 101. > > > The difficulties could be expected to arise with achieving an > appropriate rheology of the "ink" solution of Chemical A for the > piezoelectric printheads, by adjusting its surface tension and > viscosity > parameters for the best distribution in the cellulose paper fibres. > Doubtless these are deep commercial secrets, already well- > understood by > the manufacturers of printer inks. A benefit would come from the "ink" > being a true solution, not a particulate suspension, so there would be > no problems of clogged printheads; there may however be issues of > corrosion and toxicity with some chemicals. > > > Is there anyone out there with the technical know-how to convert an > inkjet printer to this use? I'm just amazed that it seems not to have > been done already. A chemically-dedicated inkjet printer could simply > eliminate the negative and the photochemistry. This is the logical end > result of 'hybrid practices' using digital technology. Unless one > chose > to embrace pure analogue photographic practice, it would be time to > bid > farewell to all siderotypes! > (Meanwhile, I continue to make them...) > Mike Ware, March 2010 > > > > > > > Dr Mike Ware > 20 Bath Road > Buxton > Derbyshire > SK17 6HH > UK > > > +44 (0)1298 78604 > mike at mikeware.co.uk > http://www.mikeware.co.uk > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From viapiano at pacbell.net Thu Mar 11 16:08:39 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:08:39 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotype References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk><1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk><004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com><854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net><8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl><006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com><007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com><20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com><20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <1FE362630FC8FA4EBE5B48CB301588AAA45C72@mailh.lumcnet.prod.intern> Message-ID: <000a01cac135$1d226020$c600a8c0@dell4600> You must be kidding...well, there goes all my fun! I had to check my calendar to make sure I hadn't slept through the last 20 days of March... Anyway...God, if you're going to go that far, just make some goddam inkjet prints and be done with it. Is there anyone left on this earth who values effing craft anymore? Digital brought technology to music and now we have complete idiots "writing" and "playing" music, who can't read a lick of it and wouldn't know an Eb from a D#...and they think they're musicians on the same level as a Yo Yo Ma. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:06 AM Subject: [alt-photo] Metalotype > Got this mail form Mike Ware some time ago (I am on a mailing list of > mike, guess some people already heard about it). Anyway: food for > thought I guess.... > > Cor > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> > > Metalotype: Metal-jet Printing > > > The current practice of Hybrid Digital-Alternative Printing involves > making large negatives digitally with an inkjet printer, in order to > contact-print them photographically onto hand-coated 'alternative' > sensitized papers of the 'single-layer' category, such as cyanotype, > argyrotype, palladiotype, platinotype and chrysotype. > > > With the advance of digital printing technology, this wasteful and > complex procedure could soon become redundant: to obtain an identical > result, it would only be necessary to fill an inkjet printer cartridge > with a solution of Chemical A, and print the 'potential image' onto a > sheet of fine paper. This would then be 'developed' in a solution of > Chemical B, which reacts with Chemical A to produce the desired image > substance in situ, probably in nanoparticle form; the print is then > washed and dried. Depending on the choice of Chemicals A and B, the > result could be a plain paper print in: Prussian blue, silver, > palladium, platinum or gold, with the image substance embedded in the > surface fibres of the paper, just the same as hand-coated siderotypes > printed photochemically - and laboriously - from negatives. > > > Such prints should be indistinguishable in their chemical and physical > structure from those made by the traditional methods. > I suggest the names Metal-jet Printing or Metalotype for this procedure. > It would have the following advantages: > > > 1) It would eliminate all the alternative photographic paraphernalia: no > UV light sources, printing frames or vacuum easels, coating implements, > safe lighting, photosensitive chemicals, etc. This might encourage more > digital photographers to try 'alternative' image substances and fine > papers. > > > 2) It would eliminate the large internegative - which is costly in > ceramic-coated film and pigment printer inks. > > > 3) The wet processing procedure would be simple, reusable, economic, and > eco-friendly. > > > 4) For a print of an 'average scene', it would consume less than one > tenth of the amount of precious metal required at present, because none > is washed away in the processing. Saving over 90% of the cost of > platinum, palladium, silver, or gold would be a significant benefit > which could widen the appeal and use of these precious metals as print > media. > > > The possibilities do not end there, however: because there is no need > for the imaging system to be photochemical, a wide range of simple > chemical reactions - by metathesis or by reduction-oxidation - could be > employed to make digital photographic prints on plain paper in all sorts > of stable pigments never previously usable; for instance, the insoluble > sulphides, selenides, chromates, and iodides of various heavy metals > such as lead, bismuth, mercury, cadmium or silver. Besides the familiar > Prussian blue, other coloured ferrocyanides and ferricyanides are > possible. In addition to the traditional platinum, palladium and gold, > the other 'noble' metals could be reduced, as images in rhenium, > ruthenium, rhodium, osmium and iridium (should anyone wish to do so). > Three-colour printing should also be possible. Other metals and more > exotic pigments will suggest themselves to the inventive chemist as > potential image substances, but the chemistry required is mostly > elementary - CM 101. > > > The difficulties could be expected to arise with achieving an > appropriate rheology of the "ink" solution of Chemical A for the > piezoelectric printheads, by adjusting its surface tension and viscosity > parameters for the best distribution in the cellulose paper fibres. > Doubtless these are deep commercial secrets, already well-understood by > the manufacturers of printer inks. A benefit would come from the "ink" > being a true solution, not a particulate suspension, so there would be > no problems of clogged printheads; there may however be issues of > corrosion and toxicity with some chemicals. > > > Is there anyone out there with the technical know-how to convert an > inkjet printer to this use? I'm just amazed that it seems not to have > been done already. A chemically-dedicated inkjet printer could simply > eliminate the negative and the photochemistry. This is the logical end > result of 'hybrid practices' using digital technology. Unless one chose > to embrace pure analogue photographic practice, it would be time to bid > farewell to all siderotypes! > (Meanwhile, I continue to make them...) > Mike Ware, March 2010 > > > > > > > Dr Mike Ware > 20 Bath Road > Buxton > Derbyshire > SK17 6HH > UK > > > +44 (0)1298 78604 > mike at mikeware.co.uk > http://www.mikeware.co.uk > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From jeremydmoore at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 16:12:08 2010 From: jeremydmoore at gmail.com (Jeremy Moore) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:12:08 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotype In-Reply-To: <000a01cac135$1d226020$c600a8c0@dell4600> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net> <854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net> <8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl> <006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com> <007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com> <20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com> <20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <1FE362630FC8FA4EBE5B48CB301588AAA45C72@mailh.lumcnet.prod.intern> <000a01cac135$1d226020$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: <66575de71003110812o372f9a5ap4f896aefcce54da9@mail.gmail.com> Paul, This just made my day =) -Jeremy, dedicated craftsman- On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 10:08 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > > music, who can't read a lick of it and wouldn't know an Eb from a D# > > Paul > > > > From bb333 at earthlink.net Thu Mar 11 16:15:20 2010 From: bb333 at earthlink.net (Bob Barnes) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:15:20 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotype In-Reply-To: <000a01cac135$1d226020$c600a8c0@dell4600> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk><1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk><004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com><854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net><8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl><006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com><007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com><20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com><20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <1FE362630FC8FA4EBE5B48CB301588AAA45C72@mailh.lumcnet.prod.intern> <000a01cac135$1d226020$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: <1FDD54B9-3461-4A01-8A20-C3762635EDBB@earthlink.net> excellent point Paul... maybe this seems exciting to me because being "facilities-challenged" has always been an egregious torment for me. On Mar 11, 2010, at 10:08 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > You must be kidding...well, there goes all my fun! I had to check > my calendar to make sure I hadn't slept through the last 20 days of > March... > > Anyway...God, if you're going to go that far, just make some goddam > inkjet prints and be done with it. Is there anyone left on this > earth who values effing craft anymore? > > Digital brought technology to music and now we have complete idiots > "writing" and "playing" music, who can't read a lick of it and > wouldn't know an Eb from a D#...and they think they're musicians on > the same level as a Yo Yo Ma. > > Paul > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:06 AM > Subject: [alt-photo] Metalotype > > >> Got this mail form Mike Ware some time ago (I am on a mailing list of >> mike, guess some people already heard about it). Anyway: food for >> thought I guess.... >> >> Cor >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >> >> Metalotype: Metal-jet Printing >> >> >> The current practice of Hybrid Digital-Alternative Printing involves >> making large negatives digitally with an inkjet printer, in order to >> contact-print them photographically onto hand-coated 'alternative' >> sensitized papers of the 'single-layer' category, such as cyanotype, >> argyrotype, palladiotype, platinotype and chrysotype. >> >> >> With the advance of digital printing technology, this wasteful and >> complex procedure could soon become redundant: to obtain an identical >> result, it would only be necessary to fill an inkjet printer >> cartridge >> with a solution of Chemical A, and print the 'potential image' onto a >> sheet of fine paper. This would then be 'developed' in a solution of >> Chemical B, which reacts with Chemical A to produce the desired image >> substance in situ, probably in nanoparticle form; the print is then >> washed and dried. Depending on the choice of Chemicals A and B, the >> result could be a plain paper print in: Prussian blue, silver, >> palladium, platinum or gold, with the image substance embedded in the >> surface fibres of the paper, just the same as hand-coated siderotypes >> printed photochemically - and laboriously - from negatives. >> >> >> Such prints should be indistinguishable in their chemical and >> physical >> structure from those made by the traditional methods. >> I suggest the names Metal-jet Printing or Metalotype for this >> procedure. >> It would have the following advantages: >> >> >> 1) It would eliminate all the alternative photographic >> paraphernalia: no >> UV light sources, printing frames or vacuum easels, coating >> implements, >> safe lighting, photosensitive chemicals, etc. This might encourage >> more >> digital photographers to try 'alternative' image substances and fine >> papers. >> >> >> 2) It would eliminate the large internegative - which is costly in >> ceramic-coated film and pigment printer inks. >> >> >> 3) The wet processing procedure would be simple, reusable, >> economic, and >> eco-friendly. >> >> >> 4) For a print of an 'average scene', it would consume less than one >> tenth of the amount of precious metal required at present, because >> none >> is washed away in the processing. Saving over 90% of the cost of >> platinum, palladium, silver, or gold would be a significant benefit >> which could widen the appeal and use of these precious metals as >> print >> media. >> >> >> The possibilities do not end there, however: because there is no need >> for the imaging system to be photochemical, a wide range of simple >> chemical reactions - by metathesis or by reduction-oxidation - >> could be >> employed to make digital photographic prints on plain paper in all >> sorts >> of stable pigments never previously usable; for instance, the >> insoluble >> sulphides, selenides, chromates, and iodides of various heavy metals >> such as lead, bismuth, mercury, cadmium or silver. Besides the >> familiar >> Prussian blue, other coloured ferrocyanides and ferricyanides are >> possible. In addition to the traditional platinum, palladium and >> gold, >> the other 'noble' metals could be reduced, as images in rhenium, >> ruthenium, rhodium, osmium and iridium (should anyone wish to do so). >> Three-colour printing should also be possible. Other metals and more >> exotic pigments will suggest themselves to the inventive chemist as >> potential image substances, but the chemistry required is mostly >> elementary - CM 101. >> >> >> The difficulties could be expected to arise with achieving an >> appropriate rheology of the "ink" solution of Chemical A for the >> piezoelectric printheads, by adjusting its surface tension and >> viscosity >> parameters for the best distribution in the cellulose paper fibres. >> Doubtless these are deep commercial secrets, already well- >> understood by >> the manufacturers of printer inks. A benefit would come from the >> "ink" >> being a true solution, not a particulate suspension, so there >> would be >> no problems of clogged printheads; there may however be issues of >> corrosion and toxicity with some chemicals. >> >> >> Is there anyone out there with the technical know-how to convert an >> inkjet printer to this use? I'm just amazed that it seems not to have >> been done already. A chemically-dedicated inkjet printer could simply >> eliminate the negative and the photochemistry. This is the logical >> end >> result of 'hybrid practices' using digital technology. Unless one >> chose >> to embrace pure analogue photographic practice, it would be time >> to bid >> farewell to all siderotypes! >> (Meanwhile, I continue to make them...) >> Mike Ware, March 2010 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Dr Mike Ware >> 20 Bath Road >> Buxton >> Derbyshire >> SK17 6HH >> UK >> >> >> +44 (0)1298 78604 >> mike at mikeware.co.uk >> http://www.mikeware.co.uk >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From richsul at earthlink.net Thu Mar 11 16:32:03 2010 From: richsul at earthlink.net (Richsul Sullivan) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 09:32:03 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's In-Reply-To: <4B9847E7.9090600@columbia.edu> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk><1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk><004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com><854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net><8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl><006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com><007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com><20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com><20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <000501cac0a2$d92e0ff0$c600a8c0@dell4600> <4B9847E7.9090600@columbia.edu> Message-ID: <02f501cac138$63b81c20$2b285460$@net> I can use some help. I am preparing a lecture on the history of alt process since WWII. I would like to know who was doing handmade and historical process photography after WWII up to 1980. I am particularly interested in folks working in the 1970's in what I call the early renaissance period of alt photography. Links to their work is helpful as well as any information as to who was actually doing the printing, say in the case of Irving Penn, who I believed did not print most of his own work. Hopefully the folks would have had some exhibitions of their works. As an example, Steve Szabo made a mark in the 70's doing platinum prints and Laura Gilpin continued making platinum prints post WWII until her death. Karl Struss had work printed by Herb Quick and I believe they were made in the 1970's. I am not interested in silver gelatin even though some now consider it to be alternative. Thanks! --Dick Sullivan From viapiano at pacbell.net Thu Mar 11 16:41:03 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:41:03 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk><1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk><004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com><854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net><8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl><006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com><007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com><20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com><20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <000501cac0a2$d92e0ff0$c600a8c0@dell4600> <4B9847E7.9090600@columbia.edu> <02f501cac138$63b81c20$2b285460$@net> Message-ID: <000301cac139$a4319550$c600a8c0@dell4600> AFAIK, Irving Penn did the alt work in his studios, but of course, may have been helped by assistants. Where do you have info that can be verified that he did not print his alt or other work? You know, a while ago there was an article in one of the photo mags in which David Vestal reamed Irving Penn re: his work and implied that they guy knew nothing about photography. It was deplorable, and just proved to me that Vestal had an axe to grind, but both men's work speaks for itself. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richsul Sullivan" To: "'The alternative photographic processes mailing list'" Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:32 AM Subject: [alt-photo] Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's >I can use some help. I am preparing a lecture on the history of alt process > since WWII. > > I would like to know who was doing handmade and historical process > photography after WWII up to 1980. I am particularly interested in folks > working in the 1970's in what I call the early renaissance period of alt > photography. Links to their work is helpful as well as any information as > to > who was actually doing the printing, say in the case of Irving Penn, who I > believed did not print most of his own work. Hopefully the folks would > have > had some exhibitions of their works. > > As an example, Steve Szabo made a mark in the 70's doing platinum prints > and > Laura Gilpin continued making platinum prints post WWII until her death. > Karl Struss had work printed by Herb Quick and I believe they were made in > the 1970's. > > I am not interested in silver gelatin even though some now consider it to > be > alternative. > > Thanks! > > --Dick Sullivan > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From richsul at earthlink.net Thu Mar 11 17:08:01 2010 From: richsul at earthlink.net (Richsul Sullivan) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 10:08:01 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotype In-Reply-To: <1FE362630FC8FA4EBE5B48CB301588AAA45C72@mailh.lumcnet.prod.intern> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk><1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk><004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com><854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net><8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl><006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com><007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com><20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com> <20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <1FE362630FC8FA4EBE5B48CB301588AAA45C72@mailh.lumcnet.prod.intern> Message-ID: <032501cac13d$690f32d0$3b2d9870$@net> This has been proposed for at least 15 years now and is nothing new. Bob Nugent explored this in the late 90's. Bostick & SUllivan has periodically been invited to "support" research into this idea. Besides losing one's connection to the process* there are a number of technical issue that go beyond just filling up an inkjet cartridge with a solution. Inks have to have certain characteristics to squirt properly. Surface tension, specific gravity and viscosity are only a couple. The error margin for these is extremely small. Print heads are often made out of ferrous metal which can rapidly clog and corrode with platinum group metal salts. Imagine buying a 100 ml cartridge of platinum solution and having it clog. The likelihood of Epson or Canon, etc. trying to solve all these problems for such a miniscule market is nil. * "This where style is rooted, how one engages a process is often more important than the content of the image." Chuck Close --Dick Sullivan -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of C.Breukel at lumc.nl Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:07 AM To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org Subject: [alt-photo] Metalotype Got this mail form Mike Ware some time ago (I am on a mailing list of mike, guess some people already heard about it). Anyway: food for thought I guess.... Cor >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>> Metalotype: Metal-jet Printing The current practice of Hybrid Digital-Alternative Printing involves making large negatives digitally with an inkjet printer, in order to contact-print them photographically onto hand-coated 'alternative' sensitized papers of the 'single-layer' category, such as cyanotype, argyrotype, palladiotype, platinotype and chrysotype. With the advance of digital printing technology, this wasteful and complex procedure could soon become redundant: to obtain an identical result, it would only be necessary to fill an inkjet printer cartridge with a solution of Chemical A, and print the 'potential image' onto a sheet of fine paper. This would then be 'developed' in a solution of Chemical B, which reacts with Chemical A to produce the desired image substance in situ, probably in nanoparticle form; the print is then washed and dried. Depending on the choice of Chemicals A and B, the result could be a plain paper print in: Prussian blue, silver, palladium, platinum or gold, with the image substance embedded in the surface fibres of the paper, just the same as hand-coated siderotypes printed photochemically - and laboriously - from negatives. Such prints should be indistinguishable in their chemical and physical structure from those made by the traditional methods. I suggest the names Metal-jet Printing or Metalotype for this procedure. It would have the following advantages: 1) It would eliminate all the alternative photographic paraphernalia: no UV light sources, printing frames or vacuum easels, coating implements, safe lighting, photosensitive chemicals, etc. This might encourage more digital photographers to try 'alternative' image substances and fine papers. 2) It would eliminate the large internegative - which is costly in ceramic-coated film and pigment printer inks. 3) The wet processing procedure would be simple, reusable, economic, and eco-friendly. 4) For a print of an 'average scene', it would consume less than one tenth of the amount of precious metal required at present, because none is washed away in the processing. Saving over 90% of the cost of platinum, palladium, silver, or gold would be a significant benefit which could widen the appeal and use of these precious metals as print media. The possibilities do not end there, however: because there is no need for the imaging system to be photochemical, a wide range of simple chemical reactions - by metathesis or by reduction-oxidation - could be employed to make digital photographic prints on plain paper in all sorts of stable pigments never previously usable; for instance, the insoluble sulphides, selenides, chromates, and iodides of various heavy metals such as lead, bismuth, mercury, cadmium or silver. Besides the familiar Prussian blue, other coloured ferrocyanides and ferricyanides are possible. In addition to the traditional platinum, palladium and gold, the other 'noble' metals could be reduced, as images in rhenium, ruthenium, rhodium, osmium and iridium (should anyone wish to do so). Three-colour printing should also be possible. Other metals and more exotic pigments will suggest themselves to the inventive chemist as potential image substances, but the chemistry required is mostly elementary - CM 101. The difficulties could be expected to arise with achieving an appropriate rheology of the "ink" solution of Chemical A for the piezoelectric printheads, by adjusting its surface tension and viscosity parameters for the best distribution in the cellulose paper fibres. Doubtless these are deep commercial secrets, already well-understood by the manufacturers of printer inks. A benefit would come from the "ink" being a true solution, not a particulate suspension, so there would be no problems of clogged printheads; there may however be issues of corrosion and toxicity with some chemicals. Is there anyone out there with the technical know-how to convert an inkjet printer to this use? I'm just amazed that it seems not to have been done already. A chemically-dedicated inkjet printer could simply eliminate the negative and the photochemistry. This is the logical end result of 'hybrid practices' using digital technology. Unless one chose to embrace pure analogue photographic practice, it would be time to bid farewell to all siderotypes! (Meanwhile, I continue to make them...) Mike Ware, March 2010 Dr Mike Ware 20 Bath Road Buxton Derbyshire SK17 6HH UK +44 (0)1298 78604 mike at mikeware.co.uk http://www.mikeware.co.uk _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 11 18:36:23 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:36:23 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotype In-Reply-To: <000a01cac135$1d226020$c600a8c0@dell4600> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk><1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk><004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com><854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net><8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl><006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com><007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com><20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com><20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <1FE362630FC8FA4EBE5B48CB301588AAA45C72@mailh.lumcnet.prod.intern> <000a01cac135$1d226020$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: <42988063-1656-482A-A6FB-3EBA58E304A5@bellsouth.net> I'm with you, Paul. Thanks. Diana On Mar 11, 2010, at 11:08 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > You must be kidding...well, there goes all my fun! I had to check my > calendar to make sure I hadn't slept through the last 20 days of > March... > > Anyway...God, if you're going to go that far, just make some goddam > inkjet prints and be done with it. Is there anyone left on this > earth who values effing craft anymore? > > Digital brought technology to music and now we have complete idiots > "writing" and "playing" music, who can't read a lick of it and > wouldn't know an Eb from a D#...and they think they're musicians on > the same level as a Yo Yo Ma. > > Paul > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:06 AM > Subject: [alt-photo] Metalotype > > >> Got this mail form Mike Ware some time ago (I am on a mailing list of >> mike, guess some people already heard about it). Anyway: food for >> thought I guess.... >> >> Cor >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >> >> Metalotype: Metal-jet Printing >> >> >> The current practice of Hybrid Digital-Alternative Printing involves >> making large negatives digitally with an inkjet printer, in order to >> contact-print them photographically onto hand-coated 'alternative' >> sensitized papers of the 'single-layer' category, such as cyanotype, >> argyrotype, palladiotype, platinotype and chrysotype. >> >> >> With the advance of digital printing technology, this wasteful and >> complex procedure could soon become redundant: to obtain an identical >> result, it would only be necessary to fill an inkjet printer >> cartridge >> with a solution of Chemical A, and print the 'potential image' onto a >> sheet of fine paper. This would then be 'developed' in a solution of >> Chemical B, which reacts with Chemical A to produce the desired image >> substance in situ, probably in nanoparticle form; the print is then >> washed and dried. Depending on the choice of Chemicals A and B, the >> result could be a plain paper print in: Prussian blue, silver, >> palladium, platinum or gold, with the image substance embedded in the >> surface fibres of the paper, just the same as hand-coated siderotypes >> printed photochemically - and laboriously - from negatives. >> >> >> Such prints should be indistinguishable in their chemical and >> physical >> structure from those made by the traditional methods. >> I suggest the names Metal-jet Printing or Metalotype for this >> procedure. >> It would have the following advantages: >> >> >> 1) It would eliminate all the alternative photographic >> paraphernalia: no >> UV light sources, printing frames or vacuum easels, coating >> implements, >> safe lighting, photosensitive chemicals, etc. This might encourage >> more >> digital photographers to try 'alternative' image substances and fine >> papers. >> >> >> 2) It would eliminate the large internegative - which is costly in >> ceramic-coated film and pigment printer inks. >> >> >> 3) The wet processing procedure would be simple, reusable, >> economic, and >> eco-friendly. >> >> >> 4) For a print of an 'average scene', it would consume less than one >> tenth of the amount of precious metal required at present, because >> none >> is washed away in the processing. Saving over 90% of the cost of >> platinum, palladium, silver, or gold would be a significant benefit >> which could widen the appeal and use of these precious metals as >> print >> media. >> >> >> The possibilities do not end there, however: because there is no need >> for the imaging system to be photochemical, a wide range of simple >> chemical reactions - by metathesis or by reduction-oxidation - >> could be >> employed to make digital photographic prints on plain paper in all >> sorts >> of stable pigments never previously usable; for instance, the >> insoluble >> sulphides, selenides, chromates, and iodides of various heavy metals >> such as lead, bismuth, mercury, cadmium or silver. Besides the >> familiar >> Prussian blue, other coloured ferrocyanides and ferricyanides are >> possible. In addition to the traditional platinum, palladium and >> gold, >> the other 'noble' metals could be reduced, as images in rhenium, >> ruthenium, rhodium, osmium and iridium (should anyone wish to do so). >> Three-colour printing should also be possible. Other metals and more >> exotic pigments will suggest themselves to the inventive chemist as >> potential image substances, but the chemistry required is mostly >> elementary - CM 101. >> >> >> The difficulties could be expected to arise with achieving an >> appropriate rheology of the "ink" solution of Chemical A for the >> piezoelectric printheads, by adjusting its surface tension and >> viscosity >> parameters for the best distribution in the cellulose paper fibres. >> Doubtless these are deep commercial secrets, already well- >> understood by >> the manufacturers of printer inks. A benefit would come from the >> "ink" >> being a true solution, not a particulate suspension, so there would >> be >> no problems of clogged printheads; there may however be issues of >> corrosion and toxicity with some chemicals. >> >> >> Is there anyone out there with the technical know-how to convert an >> inkjet printer to this use? I'm just amazed that it seems not to have >> been done already. A chemically-dedicated inkjet printer could simply >> eliminate the negative and the photochemistry. This is the logical >> end >> result of 'hybrid practices' using digital technology. Unless one >> chose >> to embrace pure analogue photographic practice, it would be time to >> bid >> farewell to all siderotypes! >> (Meanwhile, I continue to make them...) >> Mike Ware, March 2010 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Dr Mike Ware >> 20 Bath Road >> Buxton >> Derbyshire >> SK17 6HH >> UK >> >> >> +44 (0)1298 78604 >> mike at mikeware.co.uk >> http://www.mikeware.co.uk >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From keith.gerling at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 18:48:32 2010 From: keith.gerling at gmail.com (Keith Gerling) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:48:32 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotype In-Reply-To: <42988063-1656-482A-A6FB-3EBA58E304A5@bellsouth.net> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net> <8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl> <006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com> <007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com> <20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com> <20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <1FE362630FC8FA4EBE5B48CB301588AAA45C72@mailh.lumcnet.prod.intern> <000a01cac135$1d226020$c600a8c0@dell4600> <42988063-1656-482A-A6FB-3EBA58E304A5@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <98766a901003111048i1be53918n7032e6415b6ffffb@mail.gmail.com> I'm excited. Identical tricolor gumprints in one pass with no pesty clearing-bath hassles. Think of all the time that I'll save! > On Mar 11, 2010, at 11:08 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > > You must be kidding...well, there goes all my fun! I had to check my >> calendar to make sure I hadn't slept through the last 20 days of March... >> >> Anyway...God, if you're going to go that far, just make some goddam inkjet >> prints and be done with it. Is there anyone left on this earth who values >> effing craft anymore? >> >> Digital brought technology to music and now we have complete idiots >> "writing" and "playing" music, who can't read a lick of it and wouldn't know >> an Eb from a D#...and they think they're musicians on the same level as a Yo >> Yo Ma. >> >> Paul >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:06 AM >> Subject: [alt-photo] Metalotype >> >> >> Got this mail form Mike Ware some time ago (I am on a mailing list of >>> mike, guess some people already heard about it). Anyway: food for >>> thought I guess.... >>> >>> Cor >>> >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>> Metalotype: Metal-jet Printing >>> >>> >>> The current practice of Hybrid Digital-Alternative Printing involves >>> making large negatives digitally with an inkjet printer, in order to >>> contact-print them photographically onto hand-coated 'alternative' >>> sensitized papers of the 'single-layer' category, such as cyanotype, >>> argyrotype, palladiotype, platinotype and chrysotype. >>> >>> >>> With the advance of digital printing technology, this wasteful and >>> complex procedure could soon become redundant: to obtain an identical >>> result, it would only be necessary to fill an inkjet printer cartridge >>> with a solution of Chemical A, and print the 'potential image' onto a >>> sheet of fine paper. This would then be 'developed' in a solution of >>> Chemical B, which reacts with Chemical A to produce the desired image >>> substance in situ, probably in nanoparticle form; the print is then >>> washed and dried. Depending on the choice of Chemicals A and B, the >>> result could be a plain paper print in: Prussian blue, silver, >>> palladium, platinum or gold, with the image substance embedded in the >>> surface fibres of the paper, just the same as hand-coated siderotypes >>> printed photochemically - and laboriously - from negatives. >>> >>> >>> Such prints should be indistinguishable in their chemical and physical >>> structure from those made by the traditional methods. >>> I suggest the names Metal-jet Printing or Metalotype for this procedure. >>> It would have the following advantages: >>> >>> >>> 1) It would eliminate all the alternative photographic paraphernalia: no >>> UV light sources, printing frames or vacuum easels, coating implements, >>> safe lighting, photosensitive chemicals, etc. This might encourage more >>> digital photographers to try 'alternative' image substances and fine >>> papers. >>> >>> >>> 2) It would eliminate the large internegative - which is costly in >>> ceramic-coated film and pigment printer inks. >>> >>> >>> 3) The wet processing procedure would be simple, reusable, economic, and >>> eco-friendly. >>> >>> >>> 4) For a print of an 'average scene', it would consume less than one >>> tenth of the amount of precious metal required at present, because none >>> is washed away in the processing. Saving over 90% of the cost of >>> platinum, palladium, silver, or gold would be a significant benefit >>> which could widen the appeal and use of these precious metals as print >>> media. >>> >>> >>> The possibilities do not end there, however: because there is no need >>> for the imaging system to be photochemical, a wide range of simple >>> chemical reactions - by metathesis or by reduction-oxidation - could be >>> employed to make digital photographic prints on plain paper in all sorts >>> of stable pigments never previously usable; for instance, the insoluble >>> sulphides, selenides, chromates, and iodides of various heavy metals >>> such as lead, bismuth, mercury, cadmium or silver. Besides the familiar >>> Prussian blue, other coloured ferrocyanides and ferricyanides are >>> possible. In addition to the traditional platinum, palladium and gold, >>> the other 'noble' metals could be reduced, as images in rhenium, >>> ruthenium, rhodium, osmium and iridium (should anyone wish to do so). >>> Three-colour printing should also be possible. Other metals and more >>> exotic pigments will suggest themselves to the inventive chemist as >>> potential image substances, but the chemistry required is mostly >>> elementary - CM 101. >>> >>> >>> The difficulties could be expected to arise with achieving an >>> appropriate rheology of the "ink" solution of Chemical A for the >>> piezoelectric printheads, by adjusting its surface tension and viscosity >>> parameters for the best distribution in the cellulose paper fibres. >>> Doubtless these are deep commercial secrets, already well-understood by >>> the manufacturers of printer inks. A benefit would come from the "ink" >>> being a true solution, not a particulate suspension, so there would be >>> no problems of clogged printheads; there may however be issues of >>> corrosion and toxicity with some chemicals. >>> >>> >>> Is there anyone out there with the technical know-how to convert an >>> inkjet printer to this use? I'm just amazed that it seems not to have >>> been done already. A chemically-dedicated inkjet printer could simply >>> eliminate the negative and the photochemistry. This is the logical end >>> result of 'hybrid practices' using digital technology. Unless one chose >>> to embrace pure analogue photographic practice, it would be time to bid >>> farewell to all siderotypes! >>> (Meanwhile, I continue to make them...) >>> Mike Ware, March 2010 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Dr Mike Ware >>> 20 Bath Road >>> Buxton >>> Derbyshire >>> SK17 6HH >>> UK >>> >>> >>> +44 (0)1298 78604 >>> mike at mikeware.co.uk >>> http://www.mikeware.co.uk >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > From newcombr at uga.edu Thu Mar 11 18:52:21 2010 From: newcombr at uga.edu (Robert Newcomb) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:52:21 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotype In-Reply-To: <98766a901003111048i1be53918n7032e6415b6ffffb@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net> <8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl> <006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com> <007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com> <20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com> <20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <1FE362630FC8FA4EBE5B48CB301588AAA45C72@mailh.lumcnet.prod.intern> <000a01cac135$1d226020$c600a8c0@dell4600> <42988063-1656-482A-A6FB-3EBA58E304A5@bellsouth.net> <98766a901003111048i1be53918n7032e6415b6ffffb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2E2041A3-B1DC-4EE5-9D1D-3F0B10DD6BBA@uga.edu> Sounds like about as much fun and creativity as a Xerox machine. On Mar 11, 2010, at 1:48 PM, Keith Gerling wrote: > I'm excited. Identical tricolor gumprints in one pass with no pesty > clearing-bath hassles. Think of all the time that I'll save! > > > >> On Mar 11, 2010, at 11:08 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: >> >> You must be kidding...well, there goes all my fun! I had to check my >>> calendar to make sure I hadn't slept through the last 20 days of >>> March... >>> >>> Anyway...God, if you're going to go that far, just make some >>> goddam inkjet >>> prints and be done with it. Is there anyone left on this earth who >>> values >>> effing craft anymore? >>> >>> Digital brought technology to music and now we have complete idiots >>> "writing" and "playing" music, who can't read a lick of it and >>> wouldn't know >>> an Eb from a D#...and they think they're musicians on the same >>> level as a Yo >>> Yo Ma. >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>> To: >>> Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:06 AM >>> Subject: [alt-photo] Metalotype >>> >>> >>> Got this mail form Mike Ware some time ago (I am on a mailing list >>> of >>>> mike, guess some people already heard about it). Anyway: food for >>>> thought I guess.... >>>> >>>> Cor >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> Metalotype: Metal-jet Printing >>>> >>>> >>>> The current practice of Hybrid Digital-Alternative Printing >>>> involves >>>> making large negatives digitally with an inkjet printer, in order >>>> to >>>> contact-print them photographically onto hand-coated 'alternative' >>>> sensitized papers of the 'single-layer' category, such as >>>> cyanotype, >>>> argyrotype, palladiotype, platinotype and chrysotype. >>>> >>>> >>>> With the advance of digital printing technology, this wasteful and >>>> complex procedure could soon become redundant: to obtain an >>>> identical >>>> result, it would only be necessary to fill an inkjet printer >>>> cartridge >>>> with a solution of Chemical A, and print the 'potential image' >>>> onto a >>>> sheet of fine paper. This would then be 'developed' in a solution >>>> of >>>> Chemical B, which reacts with Chemical A to produce the desired >>>> image >>>> substance in situ, probably in nanoparticle form; the print is then >>>> washed and dried. Depending on the choice of Chemicals A and B, the >>>> result could be a plain paper print in: Prussian blue, silver, >>>> palladium, platinum or gold, with the image substance embedded in >>>> the >>>> surface fibres of the paper, just the same as hand-coated >>>> siderotypes >>>> printed photochemically - and laboriously - from negatives. >>>> >>>> >>>> Such prints should be indistinguishable in their chemical and >>>> physical >>>> structure from those made by the traditional methods. >>>> I suggest the names Metal-jet Printing or Metalotype for this >>>> procedure. >>>> It would have the following advantages: >>>> >>>> >>>> 1) It would eliminate all the alternative photographic >>>> paraphernalia: no >>>> UV light sources, printing frames or vacuum easels, coating >>>> implements, >>>> safe lighting, photosensitive chemicals, etc. This might >>>> encourage more >>>> digital photographers to try 'alternative' image substances and >>>> fine >>>> papers. >>>> >>>> >>>> 2) It would eliminate the large internegative - which is costly in >>>> ceramic-coated film and pigment printer inks. >>>> >>>> >>>> 3) The wet processing procedure would be simple, reusable, >>>> economic, and >>>> eco-friendly. >>>> >>>> >>>> 4) For a print of an 'average scene', it would consume less than >>>> one >>>> tenth of the amount of precious metal required at present, >>>> because none >>>> is washed away in the processing. Saving over 90% of the cost of >>>> platinum, palladium, silver, or gold would be a significant benefit >>>> which could widen the appeal and use of these precious metals as >>>> print >>>> media. >>>> >>>> >>>> The possibilities do not end there, however: because there is no >>>> need >>>> for the imaging system to be photochemical, a wide range of simple >>>> chemical reactions - by metathesis or by reduction-oxidation - >>>> could be >>>> employed to make digital photographic prints on plain paper in >>>> all sorts >>>> of stable pigments never previously usable; for instance, the >>>> insoluble >>>> sulphides, selenides, chromates, and iodides of various heavy >>>> metals >>>> such as lead, bismuth, mercury, cadmium or silver. Besides the >>>> familiar >>>> Prussian blue, other coloured ferrocyanides and ferricyanides are >>>> possible. In addition to the traditional platinum, palladium and >>>> gold, >>>> the other 'noble' metals could be reduced, as images in rhenium, >>>> ruthenium, rhodium, osmium and iridium (should anyone wish to do >>>> so). >>>> Three-colour printing should also be possible. Other metals and >>>> more >>>> exotic pigments will suggest themselves to the inventive chemist as >>>> potential image substances, but the chemistry required is mostly >>>> elementary - CM 101. >>>> >>>> >>>> The difficulties could be expected to arise with achieving an >>>> appropriate rheology of the "ink" solution of Chemical A for the >>>> piezoelectric printheads, by adjusting its surface tension and >>>> viscosity >>>> parameters for the best distribution in the cellulose paper fibres. >>>> Doubtless these are deep commercial secrets, already well- >>>> understood by >>>> the manufacturers of printer inks. A benefit would come from the >>>> "ink" >>>> being a true solution, not a particulate suspension, so there >>>> would be >>>> no problems of clogged printheads; there may however be issues of >>>> corrosion and toxicity with some chemicals. >>>> >>>> >>>> Is there anyone out there with the technical know-how to convert an >>>> inkjet printer to this use? I'm just amazed that it seems not to >>>> have >>>> been done already. A chemically-dedicated inkjet printer could >>>> simply >>>> eliminate the negative and the photochemistry. This is the >>>> logical end >>>> result of 'hybrid practices' using digital technology. Unless one >>>> chose >>>> to embrace pure analogue photographic practice, it would be time >>>> to bid >>>> farewell to all siderotypes! >>>> (Meanwhile, I continue to make them...) >>>> Mike Ware, March 2010 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dr Mike Ware >>>> 20 Bath Road >>>> Buxton >>>> Derbyshire >>>> SK17 6HH >>>> UK >>>> >>>> >>>> +44 (0)1298 78604 >>>> mike at mikeware.co.uk >>>> http://www.mikeware.co.uk >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Thu Mar 11 18:55:09 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 13:55:09 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotype In-Reply-To: <98766a901003111048i1be53918n7032e6415b6ffffb@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net> <8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl> <006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com> <007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com> <20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com> <20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <1FE362630FC8FA4EBE5B48CB301588AAA45C72@mailh.lumcnet.prod.intern> <000a01cac135$1d226020$c600a8c0@dell4600> <42988063-1656-482A-A6FB-3EBA58E304A5@bellsouth.net> <98766a901003111048i1be53918n7032e6415b6ffffb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: :) Yeah-- that-- and just imagine how many of those you could actually crank out in a day-- all via the touch of a keyboard. And, besides, who really needs those damn happy accidents and wonderful surprises-- like, how many of those can can we tolerate in one lifetime, anyway?? On Mar 11, 2010, at 1:48 PM, Keith Gerling wrote: > I'm excited. Identical tricolor gumprints in one pass with no pesty > clearing-bath hassles. Think of all the time that I'll save! > > > >> On Mar 11, 2010, at 11:08 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: >> >> You must be kidding...well, there goes all my fun! I had to check my >>> calendar to make sure I hadn't slept through the last 20 days of >>> March... >>> >>> Anyway...God, if you're going to go that far, just make some >>> goddam inkjet >>> prints and be done with it. Is there anyone left on this earth who >>> values >>> effing craft anymore? >>> >>> Digital brought technology to music and now we have complete idiots >>> "writing" and "playing" music, who can't read a lick of it and >>> wouldn't know >>> an Eb from a D#...and they think they're musicians on the same >>> level as a Yo >>> Yo Ma. >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>> To: >>> Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:06 AM >>> Subject: [alt-photo] Metalotype >>> >>> >>> Got this mail form Mike Ware some time ago (I am on a mailing list >>> of >>>> mike, guess some people already heard about it). Anyway: food for >>>> thought I guess.... >>>> >>>> Cor >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> Metalotype: Metal-jet Printing >>>> >>>> >>>> The current practice of Hybrid Digital-Alternative Printing >>>> involves >>>> making large negatives digitally with an inkjet printer, in order >>>> to >>>> contact-print them photographically onto hand-coated 'alternative' >>>> sensitized papers of the 'single-layer' category, such as >>>> cyanotype, >>>> argyrotype, palladiotype, platinotype and chrysotype. >>>> >>>> >>>> With the advance of digital printing technology, this wasteful and >>>> complex procedure could soon become redundant: to obtain an >>>> identical >>>> result, it would only be necessary to fill an inkjet printer >>>> cartridge >>>> with a solution of Chemical A, and print the 'potential image' >>>> onto a >>>> sheet of fine paper. This would then be 'developed' in a solution >>>> of >>>> Chemical B, which reacts with Chemical A to produce the desired >>>> image >>>> substance in situ, probably in nanoparticle form; the print is then >>>> washed and dried. Depending on the choice of Chemicals A and B, the >>>> result could be a plain paper print in: Prussian blue, silver, >>>> palladium, platinum or gold, with the image substance embedded in >>>> the >>>> surface fibres of the paper, just the same as hand-coated >>>> siderotypes >>>> printed photochemically - and laboriously - from negatives. >>>> >>>> >>>> Such prints should be indistinguishable in their chemical and >>>> physical >>>> structure from those made by the traditional methods. >>>> I suggest the names Metal-jet Printing or Metalotype for this >>>> procedure. >>>> It would have the following advantages: >>>> >>>> >>>> 1) It would eliminate all the alternative photographic >>>> paraphernalia: no >>>> UV light sources, printing frames or vacuum easels, coating >>>> implements, >>>> safe lighting, photosensitive chemicals, etc. This might >>>> encourage more >>>> digital photographers to try 'alternative' image substances and >>>> fine >>>> papers. >>>> >>>> >>>> 2) It would eliminate the large internegative - which is costly in >>>> ceramic-coated film and pigment printer inks. >>>> >>>> >>>> 3) The wet processing procedure would be simple, reusable, >>>> economic, and >>>> eco-friendly. >>>> >>>> >>>> 4) For a print of an 'average scene', it would consume less than >>>> one >>>> tenth of the amount of precious metal required at present, >>>> because none >>>> is washed away in the processing. Saving over 90% of the cost of >>>> platinum, palladium, silver, or gold would be a significant benefit >>>> which could widen the appeal and use of these precious metals as >>>> print >>>> media. >>>> >>>> >>>> The possibilities do not end there, however: because there is no >>>> need >>>> for the imaging system to be photochemical, a wide range of simple >>>> chemical reactions - by metathesis or by reduction-oxidation - >>>> could be >>>> employed to make digital photographic prints on plain paper in >>>> all sorts >>>> of stable pigments never previously usable; for instance, the >>>> insoluble >>>> sulphides, selenides, chromates, and iodides of various heavy >>>> metals >>>> such as lead, bismuth, mercury, cadmium or silver. Besides the >>>> familiar >>>> Prussian blue, other coloured ferrocyanides and ferricyanides are >>>> possible. In addition to the traditional platinum, palladium and >>>> gold, >>>> the other 'noble' metals could be reduced, as images in rhenium, >>>> ruthenium, rhodium, osmium and iridium (should anyone wish to do >>>> so). >>>> Three-colour printing should also be possible. Other metals and >>>> more >>>> exotic pigments will suggest themselves to the inventive chemist as >>>> potential image substances, but the chemistry required is mostly >>>> elementary - CM 101. >>>> >>>> >>>> The difficulties could be expected to arise with achieving an >>>> appropriate rheology of the "ink" solution of Chemical A for the >>>> piezoelectric printheads, by adjusting its surface tension and >>>> viscosity >>>> parameters for the best distribution in the cellulose paper fibres. >>>> Doubtless these are deep commercial secrets, already well- >>>> understood by >>>> the manufacturers of printer inks. A benefit would come from the >>>> "ink" >>>> being a true solution, not a particulate suspension, so there >>>> would be >>>> no problems of clogged printheads; there may however be issues of >>>> corrosion and toxicity with some chemicals. >>>> >>>> >>>> Is there anyone out there with the technical know-how to convert an >>>> inkjet printer to this use? I'm just amazed that it seems not to >>>> have >>>> been done already. A chemically-dedicated inkjet printer could >>>> simply >>>> eliminate the negative and the photochemistry. This is the >>>> logical end >>>> result of 'hybrid practices' using digital technology. Unless one >>>> chose >>>> to embrace pure analogue photographic practice, it would be time >>>> to bid >>>> farewell to all siderotypes! >>>> (Meanwhile, I continue to make them...) >>>> Mike Ware, March 2010 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dr Mike Ware >>>> 20 Bath Road >>>> Buxton >>>> Derbyshire >>>> SK17 6HH >>>> UK >>>> >>>> >>>> +44 (0)1298 78604 >>>> mike at mikeware.co.uk >>>> http://www.mikeware.co.uk >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From earlj at comcast.net Thu Mar 11 18:58:16 2010 From: earlj at comcast.net (Earl Johnson) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:58:16 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotype In-Reply-To: <98766a901003111048i1be53918n7032e6415b6ffffb@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net> <8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl> <006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com> <007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com> <20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com> <20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <1FE362630FC8FA4EBE5B48CB301588AAA45C72@mailh.lumcnet.prod.intern> <000a01cac135$1d226020$c600a8c0@dell4600> <42988063-1656-482A-A6FB-3EBA58E304A5@bellsouth.net> <98766a901003111048i1be53918n7032e6415b6ffffb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B993D48.1050900@comcast.net> And I can't wait for the ink-jet printer that can apply pigmented, hardened gelatin for my carbon prints. Life will be so much easier . . . Earl Johnson Keith Gerling wrote: > I'm excited. Identical tricolor gumprints in one pass with no pesty > clearing-bath hassles. Think of all the time that I'll save! > > > > From ender100 at aol.com Thu Mar 11 19:02:40 2010 From: ender100 at aol.com (ender100) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:02:40 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotype In-Reply-To: <98766a901003111048i1be53918n7032e6415b6ffffb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7888BFD4.449A.4B6D.BF6B.814F1E6593F8@aol.com> While I think there is value in imagination and thinking of new ways to use technologies, I agree with Paul and Keith. ?Many people I know, including myself, went to alternative process printing after they got bored with inkjet printing and longed for doing hand-made prints. ?I don't need to repeat the value of creating something by hand. ?As Richard Sullivan pointed out, this is not something new. ?In fact there are some really exciting alternative uses for inkjet printing in the sciences, where they are used in say microbiology to lay down very precise grids of organic materials and even living tissue for experimental purposes?or used to coat substrates as in fuel cell technology. One caution about this would be a real concern that is growing in the conventional inkjet world, and that is the dispersion of substances into the air by inkjet printers. ?Some printing houses are even installing exhaust hoods on their printers. ?I certainly wouldn't want heavy metals floating around in the air in my home. I'll keep doing my hand made prints. -- Best Wishes, Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negatives PDNPrint Forum @ Yahoo Groups Mark Nelson Photography On Mar 11, 2010, at 1:48:32 PM, "Keith Gerling" wrote: I'm excited. Identical tricolor gumprints in one pass with no pesty clearing-bath hassles. Think of all the time that I'll save! > On Mar 11, 2010, at 11:08 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > > You must be kidding...well, there goes all my fun! I had to check my >> calendar to make sure I hadn't slept through the last 20 days of March... >> >> Anyway...God, if you're going to go that far, just make some goddam inkjet >> prints and be done with it. Is there anyone left on this earth who values >> effing craft anymore? >> >> Digital brought technology to music and now we have complete idiots >> "writing" and "playing" music, who can't read a lick of it and wouldn't know >> an Eb from a D#...and they think they're musicians on the same level as a Yo >> Yo Ma. >> >> Paul >> From JoeSarff at aol.com Thu Mar 11 20:09:46 2010 From: JoeSarff at aol.com (JoeSarff at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:09:46 EST Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's Message-ID: <73dda.eab3d84.38caa80a@aol.com> >From reading I have one, Penn would come into the studio, and look at the ground glass, make adjustments and leave. The 'technicians' actually lit, composed and tripped the shutter. From that I would say David Vestal is correct. George Tice also printed platinum in the 70's Joe Sarff In a message dated 3/11/2010 9:41:29 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, viapiano at pacbell.net writes: AFAIK, Irving Penn did the alt work in his studios, but of course, may have been helped by assistants. Where do you have info that can be verified that he did not print his alt or other work? You know, a while ago there was an article in one of the photo mags in which David Vestal reamed Irving Penn re: his work and implied that they guy knew nothing about photography. It was deplorable, and just proved to me that Vestal had an axe to grind, but both men's work speaks for itself. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richsul Sullivan" To: "'The alternative photographic processes mailing list'" Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:32 AM Subject: [alt-photo] Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's >I can use some help. I am preparing a lecture on the history of alt process > since WWII. > > I would like to know who was doing handmade and historical process > photography after WWII up to 1980. I am particularly interested in folks > working in the 1970's in what I call the early renaissance period of alt > photography. Links to their work is helpful as well as any information as > to > who was actually doing the printing, say in the case of Irving Penn, who I > believed did not print most of his own work. Hopefully the folks would > have > had some exhibitions of their works. > > As an example, Steve Szabo made a mark in the 70's doing platinum prints > and > Laura Gilpin continued making platinum prints post WWII until her death. > Karl Struss had work printed by Herb Quick and I believe they were made in > the 1970's. > > I am not interested in silver gelatin even though some now consider it to > be > alternative. > > Thanks! > From jeremydmoore at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 20:16:11 2010 From: jeremydmoore at gmail.com (Jeremy Moore) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:16:11 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's In-Reply-To: <73dda.eab3d84.38caa80a@aol.com> References: <73dda.eab3d84.38caa80a@aol.com> Message-ID: <66575de71003111216w783b0bf1k3fb982e82155a996@mail.gmail.com> Joe, >From reading what? I, like Paul, have heard both stories and would like to see citations as opposed to more second-hand information. -Jeremy- On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:09 PM, wrote: > > >From reading I have one, Penn would come into the studio, and look at the > ground glass, make adjustments and leave. The 'technicians' actually lit, > composed and tripped the shutter. From that I would say David Vestal is > correct. > > George Tice also printed platinum in the 70's > > Joe Sarff > > > > > In a message dated 3/11/2010 9:41:29 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, > viapiano at pacbell.net writes: > > AFAIK, Irving Penn did the alt work in his studios, but of course, may > have > been helped by assistants. > > Where do you have info that can be verified that he did not print his alt > or > other work? > > You know, a while ago there was an article in one of the photo mags in > which > David Vestal reamed Irving Penn re: his work and implied that they guy > knew > nothing about photography. It was deplorable, and just proved to me that > Vestal had an axe to grind, but both men's work speaks for itself. > > Paul > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richsul Sullivan" > To: "'The alternative photographic processes mailing list'" > > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:32 AM > Subject: [alt-photo] Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's > > > >I can use some help. I am preparing a lecture on the history of alt > process > > since WWII. > > > > I would like to know who was doing handmade and historical process > > photography after WWII up to 1980. I am particularly interested in folks > > working in the 1970's in what I call the early renaissance period of alt > > photography. Links to their work is helpful as well as any information > as > > to > > who was actually doing the printing, say in the case of Irving Penn, who > I > > believed did not print most of his own work. Hopefully the folks would > > have > > had some exhibitions of their works. > > > > As an example, Steve Szabo made a mark in the 70's doing platinum prints > > and > > Laura Gilpin continued making platinum prints post WWII until her death. > > Karl Struss had work printed by Herb Quick and I believe they were made > in > > the 1970's. > > > > I am not interested in silver gelatin even though some now consider it > to > > be > > alternative. > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From keith.gerling at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 20:27:47 2010 From: keith.gerling at gmail.com (Keith Gerling) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:27:47 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's In-Reply-To: <66575de71003111216w783b0bf1k3fb982e82155a996@mail.gmail.com> References: <73dda.eab3d84.38caa80a@aol.com> <66575de71003111216w783b0bf1k3fb982e82155a996@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <98766a901003111227p2e967921i6a0a4a6213661e99@mail.gmail.com> Todd Walker made gum bichromate prints in the 60s (I think) On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:16 PM, Jeremy Moore wrote: > Joe, > > >From reading what? I, like Paul, have heard both stories and would like to > see citations as opposed to more second-hand information. > > -Jeremy- > > On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:09 PM, wrote: > > > > > >From reading I have one, Penn would come into the studio, and look at > the > > ground glass, make adjustments and leave. The 'technicians' actually > lit, > > composed and tripped the shutter. From that I would say David Vestal is > > correct. > > > > George Tice also printed platinum in the 70's > > > > Joe Sarff > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 3/11/2010 9:41:29 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, > > viapiano at pacbell.net writes: > > > > AFAIK, Irving Penn did the alt work in his studios, but of course, may > > have > > been helped by assistants. > > > > Where do you have info that can be verified that he did not print his > alt > > or > > other work? > > > > You know, a while ago there was an article in one of the photo mags in > > which > > David Vestal reamed Irving Penn re: his work and implied that they guy > > knew > > nothing about photography. It was deplorable, and just proved to me that > > Vestal had an axe to grind, but both men's work speaks for itself. > > > > Paul > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Richsul Sullivan" > > To: "'The alternative photographic processes mailing list'" > > > > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:32 AM > > Subject: [alt-photo] Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's > > > > > > >I can use some help. I am preparing a lecture on the history of alt > > process > > > since WWII. > > > > > > I would like to know who was doing handmade and historical process > > > photography after WWII up to 1980. I am particularly interested in > folks > > > working in the 1970's in what I call the early renaissance period of > alt > > > photography. Links to their work is helpful as well as any information > > as > > > to > > > who was actually doing the printing, say in the case of Irving Penn, > who > > I > > > believed did not print most of his own work. Hopefully the folks would > > > have > > > had some exhibitions of their works. > > > > > > As an example, Steve Szabo made a mark in the 70's doing platinum > prints > > > and > > > Laura Gilpin continued making platinum prints post WWII until her > death. > > > Karl Struss had work printed by Herb Quick and I believe they were > made > > in > > > the 1970's. > > > > > > I am not interested in silver gelatin even though some now consider it > > to > > > be > > > alternative. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From keith.gerling at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 20:35:09 2010 From: keith.gerling at gmail.com (Keith Gerling) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:35:09 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's In-Reply-To: <98766a901003111227p2e967921i6a0a4a6213661e99@mail.gmail.com> References: <73dda.eab3d84.38caa80a@aol.com> <66575de71003111216w783b0bf1k3fb982e82155a996@mail.gmail.com> <98766a901003111227p2e967921i6a0a4a6213661e99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <98766a901003111235r628ad1ebv57296bd13f2c5289@mail.gmail.com> this from Penn's book Passage, page 144: "finally I arrived at the serene pleasure of making the print itself. Over the years I must have spent thousands of hours silently brushing on the liquid coatings, preparing each sheet of paper in anticipation of reaching the perfect print" On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Keith Gerling wrote: > Todd Walker made gum bichromate prints in the 60s (I think) > > > On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:16 PM, Jeremy Moore wrote: > >> Joe, >> >> >From reading what? I, like Paul, have heard both stories and would like >> to >> see citations as opposed to more second-hand information. >> >> -Jeremy- >> >> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:09 PM, wrote: >> >> > >> > >From reading I have one, Penn would come into the studio, and look at >> the >> > ground glass, make adjustments and leave. The 'technicians' actually >> lit, >> > composed and tripped the shutter. From that I would say David Vestal >> is >> > correct. >> > >> > George Tice also printed platinum in the 70's >> > >> > Joe Sarff >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > In a message dated 3/11/2010 9:41:29 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, >> > viapiano at pacbell.net writes: >> > >> > AFAIK, Irving Penn did the alt work in his studios, but of course, may >> > have >> > been helped by assistants. >> > >> > Where do you have info that can be verified that he did not print his >> alt >> > or >> > other work? >> > >> > You know, a while ago there was an article in one of the photo mags in >> > which >> > David Vestal reamed Irving Penn re: his work and implied that they guy >> > knew >> > nothing about photography. It was deplorable, and just proved to me >> that >> > Vestal had an axe to grind, but both men's work speaks for itself. >> > >> > Paul >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Richsul Sullivan" >> > To: "'The alternative photographic processes mailing list'" >> > >> > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:32 AM >> > Subject: [alt-photo] Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's >> > >> > >> > >I can use some help. I am preparing a lecture on the history of alt >> > process >> > > since WWII. >> > > >> > > I would like to know who was doing handmade and historical process >> > > photography after WWII up to 1980. I am particularly interested in >> folks >> > > working in the 1970's in what I call the early renaissance period of >> alt >> > > photography. Links to their work is helpful as well as any >> information >> > as >> > > to >> > > who was actually doing the printing, say in the case of Irving Penn, >> who >> > I >> > > believed did not print most of his own work. Hopefully the folks >> would >> > > have >> > > had some exhibitions of their works. >> > > >> > > As an example, Steve Szabo made a mark in the 70's doing platinum >> prints >> > > and >> > > Laura Gilpin continued making platinum prints post WWII until her >> death. >> > > Karl Struss had work printed by Herb Quick and I believe they were >> made >> > in >> > > the 1970's. >> > > >> > > I am not interested in silver gelatin even though some now consider >> it >> > to >> > > be >> > > alternative. >> > > >> > > Thanks! >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > > From zphoto at montana.net Thu Mar 11 21:00:16 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:00:16 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's In-Reply-To: <98766a901003111227p2e967921i6a0a4a6213661e99@mail.gmail.com> References: <73dda.eab3d84.38caa80a@aol.com> <66575de71003111216w783b0bf1k3fb982e82155a996@mail.gmail.com> <98766a901003111227p2e967921i6a0a4a6213661e99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Depends on what you are terming "alt" but here are a few (please forgive misspellings--don't have time to check out names right now); also depends if you want famous or not so famous: Ansel Adams (JOKE) Todd Walker Kay Kenny Judy Siegel Betty Hahn Bea Nettles Henry Holmes Smith Sam Wang Edmund Teske William Mortensen Paul Anderson Thomas Barrow Ellen Land Weber Scott Hyde Eileen Cowin Martha Casanave perhaps (she'd be a good one to ask) Robert Fichter Lois Conner James Hajicek Robert Heinecken Paul Kilmer John Wood Sheila Metzner Deborah Turbeville (these latter two may be past your bracket of 1945-1980) etc etc etc etc Try to buy on Abebooks The Alternative Image catalog from 1982. Some good history there. U of Florida was rampant alt back "in the day". Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Mar 11, 2010, at 1:27 PM, Keith Gerling wrote: > Todd Walker made gum bichromate prints in the 60s (I think) > > On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:16 PM, Jeremy Moore wrote: > >> Joe, >> >>> From reading what? I, like Paul, have heard both stories and would like to >> see citations as opposed to more second-hand information. >> >> -Jeremy- >> >> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:09 PM, wrote: >> >>> >>>> From reading I have one, Penn would come into the studio, and look at >> the >>> ground glass, make adjustments and leave. The 'technicians' actually >> lit, >>> composed and tripped the shutter. From that I would say David Vestal is >>> correct. >>> >>> George Tice also printed platinum in the 70's >>> >>> Joe Sarff >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 3/11/2010 9:41:29 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, >>> viapiano at pacbell.net writes: >>> >>> AFAIK, Irving Penn did the alt work in his studios, but of course, may >>> have >>> been helped by assistants. >>> >>> Where do you have info that can be verified that he did not print his >> alt >>> or >>> other work? >>> >>> You know, a while ago there was an article in one of the photo mags in >>> which >>> David Vestal reamed Irving Penn re: his work and implied that they guy >>> knew >>> nothing about photography. It was deplorable, and just proved to me that >>> Vestal had an axe to grind, but both men's work speaks for itself. >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Richsul Sullivan" >>> To: "'The alternative photographic processes mailing list'" >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:32 AM >>> Subject: [alt-photo] Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's >>> >>> >>>> I can use some help. I am preparing a lecture on the history of alt >>> process >>>> since WWII. >>>> >>>> I would like to know who was doing handmade and historical process >>>> photography after WWII up to 1980. I am particularly interested in >> folks >>>> working in the 1970's in what I call the early renaissance period of >> alt >>>> photography. Links to their work is helpful as well as any information >>> as >>>> to >>>> who was actually doing the printing, say in the case of Irving Penn, >> who >>> I >>>> believed did not print most of his own work. Hopefully the folks would >>>> have >>>> had some exhibitions of their works. >>>> >>>> As an example, Steve Szabo made a mark in the 70's doing platinum >> prints >>>> and >>>> Laura Gilpin continued making platinum prints post WWII until her >> death. >>>> Karl Struss had work printed by Herb Quick and I believe they were >> made >>> in >>>> the 1970's. >>>> >>>> I am not interested in silver gelatin even though some now consider it >>> to >>>> be >>>> alternative. >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Thu Mar 11 21:18:43 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:18:43 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] exposure unit Message-ID: Has anyone bought one of these and used for alt or gum? And what is the best URL for a plan to build one's own? Apparently the plan I hand out to students out of Nadeau's is incomplete, but since I am a building failure, I can't explain why it is incomplete. I wouldn't know a magnetic ballast from a martini frankly. Chris http://www.silkscreeningsupplies.com/site/799934/product/RXP2024 Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com From Gumprint at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 21:58:08 2010 From: Gumprint at gmail.com (Gumprint) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:58:08 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Alternative Exposure Unit (no pun intended) Message-ID: Christine, Group: I had been using a custom made BLB set up with 8-24" bulbs for over 15 years. The bulbs are very expensive to replace and my exposures were 90 seconds to 7 minutes. Last month Barry Schmetter brought in a Fotodiox unit for me to use for a gumprint demo at the Large Format and Alternative Photography Gathering (Metro Wash DC). Using my gum/pigment mix 1:1 with 15% ammonium dichromate sensitizer I was able to reduce my first emulsion from 7 minutes to 70 seconds. It was perfect. The second emulsion was correct in 30 seconds. This unit has completely changed the way I print. http://www.fotodiox.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=78 fitted it with 16 Bright Effects (swirly type; 26 watts daylight or 6000K from Lowes). The unit is intended to sit on a lighting tripod but I added a clamp and attach it to a heavily loaded bookcase. The unit is currently going for $135 + shipping. Add $30 for a clamp if you can't rig up something, a builder pack of the bulbs, and you have a very fast, compact, and portable exposure device. Best, Carole On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 4:18 PM, Christina Anderson wrote: > Has anyone bought one of these and used for alt or gum? > And what is the best URL for a plan to build one's own? Apparently the > plan I hand out to students out of Nadeau's is incomplete, but since I am a > building failure, I can't explain why it is incomplete. I wouldn't know a > magnetic ballast from a martini frankly. > Chris > > > http://www.silkscreeningsupplies.com/site/799934/product/RXP2024 > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From zphoto at montana.net Thu Mar 11 22:14:53 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:14:53 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative Exposure Unit (no pun intended) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow, Carole, GREAT idea! Thanks Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Mar 11, 2010, at 2:58 PM, Gumprint wrote: > Christine, Group: > > I had been using a custom made BLB set up with 8-24" bulbs for over 15 > years. The bulbs are very expensive to replace and my exposures were 90 > seconds to 7 minutes. Last month Barry Schmetter brought in a Fotodiox unit > for me to use for a gumprint demo at the Large Format and Alternative > Photography Gathering (Metro Wash DC). Using my gum/pigment mix 1:1 with 15% > ammonium dichromate sensitizer I was able to reduce my first emulsion from 7 > minutes to 70 seconds. It was perfect. The second emulsion was correct in 30 > seconds. This unit has completely changed the way I print. > > http://www.fotodiox.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=78 fitted it > with 16 Bright Effects (swirly type; 26 watts daylight or 6000K from Lowes). > The unit is intended to sit on a lighting tripod but I added a clamp and > attach it to a heavily loaded bookcase. The unit is currently going for $135 > + shipping. Add $30 for a clamp if you can't rig up something, a builder > pack of the bulbs, and you have a very fast, compact, and portable exposure > device. > > Best, > Carole > > > > On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 4:18 PM, Christina Anderson wrote: > >> Has anyone bought one of these and used for alt or gum? >> And what is the best URL for a plan to build one's own? Apparently the >> plan I hand out to students out of Nadeau's is incomplete, but since I am a >> building failure, I can't explain why it is incomplete. I wouldn't know a >> magnetic ballast from a martini frankly. >> Chris >> >> >> http://www.silkscreeningsupplies.com/site/799934/product/RXP2024 >> >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From geoff at geoffgallery.net Thu Mar 11 22:16:05 2010 From: geoff at geoffgallery.net (geoff chaplin) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:16:05 -0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's In-Reply-To: <02f501cac138$63b81c20$2b285460$@net> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk><1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk><004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com><854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net><8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl><006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com><007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com><20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com><20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <000501cac0a2$d92e0ff0$c600a8c0@dell4600> <4B9847E7.9090600@columbia.edu> <02f501cac138$63b81c20$2b285460$@net> Message-ID: Terry King was I believe (terryaking at aol.com) and the late Peter Frederik. Geoff Chaplin ?????????? geoff at geoffgallery.net www.geoffgallery.net Skype: geoffchaplin1611 UK mobile (???????): +44(0) 7770 787069 Japan mobile (???????): +81(0) 90 6440 7037 Japan land line / fax (??????????): +81(0) 166 92 5855 -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Richsul Sullivan Sent: 11 March 2010 16:32 To: 'The alternative photographic processes mailing list' Subject: [alt-photo] Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's I can use some help. I am preparing a lecture on the history of alt process since WWII. I would like to know who was doing handmade and historical process photography after WWII up to 1980. I am particularly interested in folks working in the 1970's in what I call the early renaissance period of alt photography. Links to their work is helpful as well as any information as to who was actually doing the printing, say in the case of Irving Penn, who I believed did not print most of his own work. Hopefully the folks would have had some exhibitions of their works. As an example, Steve Szabo made a mark in the 70's doing platinum prints and Laura Gilpin continued making platinum prints post WWII until her death. Karl Struss had work printed by Herb Quick and I believe they were made in the 1970's. I am not interested in silver gelatin even though some now consider it to be alternative. Thanks! --Dick Sullivan _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From viapiano at pacbell.net Thu Mar 11 22:32:06 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:32:06 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotype References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net><8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl><006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com><007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com><20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com><20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it><1FE362630FC8FA4EBE5B48CB301588AAA45C72@mailh.lumcnet.prod.intern><000a01cac135$1d226020$c600a8c0@dell4600><42988063-1656-482A-A6FB-3EBA58E304A5@bellsouth.net> <98766a901003111048i1be53918n7032e6415b6ffffb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000c01cac16a$ae40fff0$c600a8c0@dell4600> Yeah, but it'll be a bitch getting those wood panels through the rear feed slot. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Gerling" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 10:48 AM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotype > I'm excited. Identical tricolor gumprints in one pass with no pesty > clearing-bath hassles. Think of all the time that I'll save! > > > >> On Mar 11, 2010, at 11:08 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: >> >> You must be kidding...well, there goes all my fun! I had to check my >>> calendar to make sure I hadn't slept through the last 20 days of >>> March... >>> >>> Anyway...God, if you're going to go that far, just make some goddam >>> inkjet >>> prints and be done with it. Is there anyone left on this earth who >>> values >>> effing craft anymore? >>> >>> Digital brought technology to music and now we have complete idiots >>> "writing" and "playing" music, who can't read a lick of it and wouldn't >>> know >>> an Eb from a D#...and they think they're musicians on the same level as >>> a Yo >>> Yo Ma. >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>> To: >>> Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:06 AM >>> Subject: [alt-photo] Metalotype >>> >>> >>> Got this mail form Mike Ware some time ago (I am on a mailing list of >>>> mike, guess some people already heard about it). Anyway: food for >>>> thought I guess.... >>>> >>>> Cor >>>> >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>> Metalotype: Metal-jet Printing >>>> >>>> >>>> The current practice of Hybrid Digital-Alternative Printing involves >>>> making large negatives digitally with an inkjet printer, in order to >>>> contact-print them photographically onto hand-coated 'alternative' >>>> sensitized papers of the 'single-layer' category, such as cyanotype, >>>> argyrotype, palladiotype, platinotype and chrysotype. >>>> >>>> >>>> With the advance of digital printing technology, this wasteful and >>>> complex procedure could soon become redundant: to obtain an identical >>>> result, it would only be necessary to fill an inkjet printer cartridge >>>> with a solution of Chemical A, and print the 'potential image' onto a >>>> sheet of fine paper. This would then be 'developed' in a solution of >>>> Chemical B, which reacts with Chemical A to produce the desired image >>>> substance in situ, probably in nanoparticle form; the print is then >>>> washed and dried. Depending on the choice of Chemicals A and B, the >>>> result could be a plain paper print in: Prussian blue, silver, >>>> palladium, platinum or gold, with the image substance embedded in the >>>> surface fibres of the paper, just the same as hand-coated siderotypes >>>> printed photochemically - and laboriously - from negatives. >>>> >>>> >>>> Such prints should be indistinguishable in their chemical and physical >>>> structure from those made by the traditional methods. >>>> I suggest the names Metal-jet Printing or Metalotype for this >>>> procedure. >>>> It would have the following advantages: >>>> >>>> >>>> 1) It would eliminate all the alternative photographic paraphernalia: >>>> no >>>> UV light sources, printing frames or vacuum easels, coating >>>> implements, >>>> safe lighting, photosensitive chemicals, etc. This might encourage more >>>> digital photographers to try 'alternative' image substances and fine >>>> papers. >>>> >>>> >>>> 2) It would eliminate the large internegative - which is costly in >>>> ceramic-coated film and pigment printer inks. >>>> >>>> >>>> 3) The wet processing procedure would be simple, reusable, economic, >>>> and >>>> eco-friendly. >>>> >>>> >>>> 4) For a print of an 'average scene', it would consume less than one >>>> tenth of the amount of precious metal required at present, because none >>>> is washed away in the processing. Saving over 90% of the cost of >>>> platinum, palladium, silver, or gold would be a significant benefit >>>> which could widen the appeal and use of these precious metals as print >>>> media. >>>> >>>> >>>> The possibilities do not end there, however: because there is no need >>>> for the imaging system to be photochemical, a wide range of simple >>>> chemical reactions - by metathesis or by reduction-oxidation - could be >>>> employed to make digital photographic prints on plain paper in all >>>> sorts >>>> of stable pigments never previously usable; for instance, the insoluble >>>> sulphides, selenides, chromates, and iodides of various heavy metals >>>> such as lead, bismuth, mercury, cadmium or silver. Besides the familiar >>>> Prussian blue, other coloured ferrocyanides and ferricyanides are >>>> possible. In addition to the traditional platinum, palladium and gold, >>>> the other 'noble' metals could be reduced, as images in rhenium, >>>> ruthenium, rhodium, osmium and iridium (should anyone wish to do so). >>>> Three-colour printing should also be possible. Other metals and more >>>> exotic pigments will suggest themselves to the inventive chemist as >>>> potential image substances, but the chemistry required is mostly >>>> elementary - CM 101. >>>> >>>> >>>> The difficulties could be expected to arise with achieving an >>>> appropriate rheology of the "ink" solution of Chemical A for the >>>> piezoelectric printheads, by adjusting its surface tension and >>>> viscosity >>>> parameters for the best distribution in the cellulose paper fibres. >>>> Doubtless these are deep commercial secrets, already well-understood by >>>> the manufacturers of printer inks. A benefit would come from the "ink" >>>> being a true solution, not a particulate suspension, so there would be >>>> no problems of clogged printheads; there may however be issues of >>>> corrosion and toxicity with some chemicals. >>>> >>>> >>>> Is there anyone out there with the technical know-how to convert an >>>> inkjet printer to this use? I'm just amazed that it seems not to have >>>> been done already. A chemically-dedicated inkjet printer could simply >>>> eliminate the negative and the photochemistry. This is the logical end >>>> result of 'hybrid practices' using digital technology. Unless one chose >>>> to embrace pure analogue photographic practice, it would be time to bid >>>> farewell to all siderotypes! >>>> (Meanwhile, I continue to make them...) >>>> Mike Ware, March 2010 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Dr Mike Ware >>>> 20 Bath Road >>>> Buxton >>>> Derbyshire >>>> SK17 6HH >>>> UK >>>> >>>> >>>> +44 (0)1298 78604 >>>> mike at mikeware.co.uk >>>> http://www.mikeware.co.uk >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From viapiano at pacbell.net Thu Mar 11 22:34:24 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:34:24 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's References: <73dda.eab3d84.38caa80a@aol.com> Message-ID: <001801cac16b$00b42d70$c600a8c0@dell4600> Joe, please cite the reference for your statements. I want to read it, too... Thanks much...Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 12:09 PM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's > >>From reading I have one, Penn would come into the studio, and look at the > ground glass, make adjustments and leave. The 'technicians' actually lit, > composed and tripped the shutter. From that I would say David Vestal is > correct. > > George Tice also printed platinum in the 70's > > Joe Sarff > > > > > In a message dated 3/11/2010 9:41:29 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, > viapiano at pacbell.net writes: > > AFAIK, Irving Penn did the alt work in his studios, but of course, may > have > been helped by assistants. > > Where do you have info that can be verified that he did not print his alt > or > other work? > > You know, a while ago there was an article in one of the photo mags in > which > David Vestal reamed Irving Penn re: his work and implied that they guy > knew > nothing about photography. It was deplorable, and just proved to me that > Vestal had an axe to grind, but both men's work speaks for itself. > > Paul > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richsul Sullivan" > To: "'The alternative photographic processes mailing list'" > > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:32 AM > Subject: [alt-photo] Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's > > >>I can use some help. I am preparing a lecture on the history of alt > process >> since WWII. >> >> I would like to know who was doing handmade and historical process >> photography after WWII up to 1980. I am particularly interested in folks >> working in the 1970's in what I call the early renaissance period of alt >> photography. Links to their work is helpful as well as any information > as >> to >> who was actually doing the printing, say in the case of Irving Penn, who > I >> believed did not print most of his own work. Hopefully the folks would >> have >> had some exhibitions of their works. >> >> As an example, Steve Szabo made a mark in the 70's doing platinum prints >> and >> Laura Gilpin continued making platinum prints post WWII until her death. >> Karl Struss had work printed by Herb Quick and I believe they were made > in >> the 1970's. >> >> I am not interested in silver gelatin even though some now consider it > to >> be >> alternative. >> >> Thanks! >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From richsul at earthlink.net Thu Mar 11 22:37:07 2010 From: richsul at earthlink.net (Richsul Sullivan) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:37:07 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's In-Reply-To: References: <73dda.eab3d84.38caa80a@aol.com> <66575de71003111216w783b0bf1k3fb982e82155a996@mail.gmail.com> <98766a901003111227p2e967921i6a0a4a6213661e99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <036a01cac16b$64c453d0$2e4cfb70$@net> Christina, Thanks, I have some on my list but this is great! Some of these I was not aware worked that early. I got to dig out our customer database form the early 80's. I studied with Teske, Heineken, Walker and MacDonald (not on list.) MacDonald taught at the Mortensen school in Laguna Beach. This is really great as there are some I never heard of. I saw the John Wood retrospective in Rochester in October of 2008. He came out of Alfred U. --Dick -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Christina Anderson Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 2:00 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's Depends on what you are terming "alt" but here are a few (please forgive misspellings--don't have time to check out names right now); also depends if you want famous or not so famous: Ansel Adams (JOKE) Todd Walker Kay Kenny Judy Siegel Betty Hahn Bea Nettles Henry Holmes Smith Sam Wang Edmund Teske William Mortensen Paul Anderson Thomas Barrow Ellen Land Weber Scott Hyde Eileen Cowin Martha Casanave perhaps (she'd be a good one to ask) Robert Fichter Lois Conner James Hajicek Robert Heinecken Paul Kilmer John Wood Sheila Metzner Deborah Turbeville (these latter two may be past your bracket of 1945-1980) etc etc etc etc Try to buy on Abebooks The Alternative Image catalog from 1982. Some good history there. U of Florida was rampant alt back "in the day". Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Mar 11, 2010, at 1:27 PM, Keith Gerling wrote: > Todd Walker made gum bichromate prints in the 60s (I think) > > On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:16 PM, Jeremy Moore wrote: > >> Joe, >> >>> From reading what? I, like Paul, have heard both stories and would like to >> see citations as opposed to more second-hand information. >> >> -Jeremy- >> >> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:09 PM, wrote: >> >>> >>>> From reading I have one, Penn would come into the studio, and look at >> the >>> ground glass, make adjustments and leave. The 'technicians' actually >> lit, >>> composed and tripped the shutter. From that I would say David Vestal is >>> correct. >>> >>> George Tice also printed platinum in the 70's >>> >>> Joe Sarff >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 3/11/2010 9:41:29 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, >>> viapiano at pacbell.net writes: >>> >>> AFAIK, Irving Penn did the alt work in his studios, but of course, may >>> have >>> been helped by assistants. >>> >>> Where do you have info that can be verified that he did not print his >> alt >>> or >>> other work? >>> >>> You know, a while ago there was an article in one of the photo mags in >>> which >>> David Vestal reamed Irving Penn re: his work and implied that they guy >>> knew >>> nothing about photography. It was deplorable, and just proved to me that >>> Vestal had an axe to grind, but both men's work speaks for itself. >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Richsul Sullivan" >>> To: "'The alternative photographic processes mailing list'" >>> >>> Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:32 AM >>> Subject: [alt-photo] Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's >>> >>> >>>> I can use some help. I am preparing a lecture on the history of alt >>> process >>>> since WWII. >>>> >>>> I would like to know who was doing handmade and historical process >>>> photography after WWII up to 1980. I am particularly interested in >> folks >>>> working in the 1970's in what I call the early renaissance period of >> alt >>>> photography. Links to their work is helpful as well as any information >>> as >>>> to >>>> who was actually doing the printing, say in the case of Irving Penn, >> who >>> I >>>> believed did not print most of his own work. Hopefully the folks would >>>> have >>>> had some exhibitions of their works. >>>> >>>> As an example, Steve Szabo made a mark in the 70's doing platinum >> prints >>>> and >>>> Laura Gilpin continued making platinum prints post WWII until her >> death. >>>> Karl Struss had work printed by Herb Quick and I believe they were >> made >>> in >>>> the 1970's. >>>> >>>> I am not interested in silver gelatin even though some now consider it >>> to >>>> be >>>> alternative. >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From viapiano at pacbell.net Thu Mar 11 22:38:48 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:38:48 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative Exposure Unit (no pun intended) References: Message-ID: <002e01cac16b$9de6f1e0$c600a8c0@dell4600> Carole... What are the dimensions of this unit? What's the largest print you've printed with it? How far from the contact frame is the exposure unit? Sounds great...would love to know more. Thanks...Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gumprint" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 1:58 PM Subject: [alt-photo] Alternative Exposure Unit (no pun intended) > Christine, Group: > > I had been using a custom made BLB set up with 8-24" bulbs for over 15 > years. The bulbs are very expensive to replace and my exposures were 90 > seconds to 7 minutes. Last month Barry Schmetter brought in a Fotodiox > unit > for me to use for a gumprint demo at the Large Format and Alternative > Photography Gathering (Metro Wash DC). Using my gum/pigment mix 1:1 with > 15% > ammonium dichromate sensitizer I was able to reduce my first emulsion from > 7 > minutes to 70 seconds. It was perfect. The second emulsion was correct in > 30 > seconds. This unit has completely changed the way I print. > > http://www.fotodiox.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=78 fitted it > with 16 Bright Effects (swirly type; 26 watts daylight or 6000K from > Lowes). > The unit is intended to sit on a lighting tripod but I added a clamp and > attach it to a heavily loaded bookcase. The unit is currently going for > $135 > + shipping. Add $30 for a clamp if you can't rig up something, a builder > pack of the bulbs, and you have a very fast, compact, and portable > exposure > device. > > Best, > Carole > > > > On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 4:18 PM, Christina Anderson > wrote: > >> Has anyone bought one of these and used for alt or gum? >> And what is the best URL for a plan to build one's own? Apparently the >> plan I hand out to students out of Nadeau's is incomplete, but since I am >> a >> building failure, I can't explain why it is incomplete. I wouldn't know >> a >> magnetic ballast from a martini frankly. >> Chris >> >> >> http://www.silkscreeningsupplies.com/site/799934/product/RXP2024 >> >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca Thu Mar 11 22:54:23 2010 From: pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca (Peter Friderichsen) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:54:23 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative Exposure Unit (no pun intended) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Keep in mind that this unit as pictured uses spiral compact fluorescent lamps. These will not work nearly as well if your chemistry uses light sensitive iron salts rather than the dichromates. The dichromates are light sensitive over a wider range of the spectrum. They can be exposed with blue light and are still somewhat senstive to green. The iron salts such as ferric ammonium citrate (oxalate) have most sensitivity in the UVA regoin I did an experiment that confirmed this. I cut up some blue, green, yellow, and red lighting gels into squares and mounted them on a transparent sheet, then I shone a slide projector at very close range through the strip and onto a test strip of dichromate/gum, and a second strip of ferric ammonium citrate/potassium ferricyanide(cyanotype). The dichromate exposed considerably in blue moderately in green and slightly in yellow none in red. The cyanoype showed only a mild exposure under the blue square. Peter Friedrichsen At 04:58 PM 03/11/2010, you wrote: >Christine, Group: > >I had been using a custom made BLB set up with 8-24" bulbs for over 15 >years. The bulbs are very expensive to replace and my exposures were 90 >seconds to 7 minutes. Last month Barry Schmetter brought in a Fotodiox unit >for me to use for a gumprint demo at the Large Format and Alternative >Photography Gathering (Metro Wash DC). Using my gum/pigment mix 1:1 with 15% >ammonium dichromate sensitizer I was able to reduce my first emulsion from 7 >minutes to 70 seconds. It was perfect. The second emulsion was correct in 30 >seconds. This unit has completely changed the way I print. > > http://www.fotodiox.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=78 fitted it >with 16 Bright Effects (swirly type; 26 watts daylight or 6000K from Lowes). >The unit is intended to sit on a lighting tripod but I added a clamp and >attach it to a heavily loaded bookcase. The unit is currently going for $135 >+ shipping. Add $30 for a clamp if you can't rig up something, a builder >pack of the bulbs, and you have a very fast, compact, and portable exposure >device. > >Best, >Carole > > > >On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 4:18 PM, Christina Anderson wrote: > > > Has anyone bought one of these and used for alt or gum? > > And what is the best URL for a plan to build one's own? Apparently the > > plan I hand out to students out of Nadeau's is incomplete, but since I am a > > building failure, I can't explain why it is incomplete. I wouldn't know a > > magnetic ballast from a martini frankly. > > Chris > > > > > > http://www.silkscreeningsupplies.com/site/799934/product/RXP2024 > > > > Christina Z. Anderson > > christinaZanderson.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > >_______________________________________________ >Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From keith.gerling at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 23:03:44 2010 From: keith.gerling at gmail.com (Keith Gerling) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:03:44 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotype In-Reply-To: <000c01cac16a$ae40fff0$c600a8c0@dell4600> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net> <007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com> <20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com> <20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <1FE362630FC8FA4EBE5B48CB301588AAA45C72@mailh.lumcnet.prod.intern> <000a01cac135$1d226020$c600a8c0@dell4600> <42988063-1656-482A-A6FB-3EBA58E304A5@bellsouth.net> <98766a901003111048i1be53918n7032e6415b6ffffb@mail.gmail.com> <000c01cac16a$ae40fff0$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: <98766a901003111503o302d2892k2992842461363b7e@mail.gmail.com> Oh yeah. Hadn't thought about that, Paul. On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 4:32 PM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > Yeah, but it'll be a bitch getting those wood panels through the rear feed > slot. > > Paul > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Gerling" < > keith.gerling at gmail.com> > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" < > alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 10:48 AM > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotype > > > > I'm excited. Identical tricolor gumprints in one pass with no pesty >> clearing-bath hassles. Think of all the time that I'll save! >> >> >> >> On Mar 11, 2010, at 11:08 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: >>> >>> You must be kidding...well, there goes all my fun! I had to check my >>> >>>> calendar to make sure I hadn't slept through the last 20 days of >>>> March... >>>> >>>> Anyway...God, if you're going to go that far, just make some goddam >>>> inkjet >>>> prints and be done with it. Is there anyone left on this earth who >>>> values >>>> effing craft anymore? >>>> >>>> Digital brought technology to music and now we have complete idiots >>>> "writing" and "playing" music, who can't read a lick of it and wouldn't >>>> know >>>> an Eb from a D#...and they think they're musicians on the same level as >>>> a Yo >>>> Yo Ma. >>>> >>>> Paul >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 7:06 AM >>>> Subject: [alt-photo] Metalotype >>>> >>>> >>>> Got this mail form Mike Ware some time ago (I am on a mailing list of >>>> >>>>> mike, guess some people already heard about it). Anyway: food for >>>>> thought I guess.... >>>>> >>>>> Cor >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Metalotype: Metal-jet Printing >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The current practice of Hybrid Digital-Alternative Printing involves >>>>> making large negatives digitally with an inkjet printer, in order to >>>>> contact-print them photographically onto hand-coated 'alternative' >>>>> sensitized papers of the 'single-layer' category, such as cyanotype, >>>>> argyrotype, palladiotype, platinotype and chrysotype. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> With the advance of digital printing technology, this wasteful and >>>>> complex procedure could soon become redundant: to obtain an identical >>>>> result, it would only be necessary to fill an inkjet printer cartridge >>>>> with a solution of Chemical A, and print the 'potential image' onto a >>>>> sheet of fine paper. This would then be 'developed' in a solution of >>>>> Chemical B, which reacts with Chemical A to produce the desired image >>>>> substance in situ, probably in nanoparticle form; the print is then >>>>> washed and dried. Depending on the choice of Chemicals A and B, the >>>>> result could be a plain paper print in: Prussian blue, silver, >>>>> palladium, platinum or gold, with the image substance embedded in the >>>>> surface fibres of the paper, just the same as hand-coated siderotypes >>>>> printed photochemically - and laboriously - from negatives. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Such prints should be indistinguishable in their chemical and physical >>>>> structure from those made by the traditional methods. >>>>> I suggest the names Metal-jet Printing or Metalotype for this >>>>> procedure. >>>>> It would have the following advantages: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 1) It would eliminate all the alternative photographic paraphernalia: >>>>> no >>>>> UV light sources, printing frames or vacuum easels, coating >>>>> implements, >>>>> safe lighting, photosensitive chemicals, etc. This might encourage more >>>>> digital photographers to try 'alternative' image substances and fine >>>>> papers. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 2) It would eliminate the large internegative - which is costly in >>>>> ceramic-coated film and pigment printer inks. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 3) The wet processing procedure would be simple, reusable, economic, >>>>> and >>>>> eco-friendly. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> 4) For a print of an 'average scene', it would consume less than one >>>>> tenth of the amount of precious metal required at present, because none >>>>> is washed away in the processing. Saving over 90% of the cost of >>>>> platinum, palladium, silver, or gold would be a significant benefit >>>>> which could widen the appeal and use of these precious metals as print >>>>> media. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The possibilities do not end there, however: because there is no need >>>>> for the imaging system to be photochemical, a wide range of simple >>>>> chemical reactions - by metathesis or by reduction-oxidation - could be >>>>> employed to make digital photographic prints on plain paper in all >>>>> sorts >>>>> of stable pigments never previously usable; for instance, the insoluble >>>>> sulphides, selenides, chromates, and iodides of various heavy metals >>>>> such as lead, bismuth, mercury, cadmium or silver. Besides the familiar >>>>> Prussian blue, other coloured ferrocyanides and ferricyanides are >>>>> possible. In addition to the traditional platinum, palladium and gold, >>>>> the other 'noble' metals could be reduced, as images in rhenium, >>>>> ruthenium, rhodium, osmium and iridium (should anyone wish to do so). >>>>> Three-colour printing should also be possible. Other metals and more >>>>> exotic pigments will suggest themselves to the inventive chemist as >>>>> potential image substances, but the chemistry required is mostly >>>>> elementary - CM 101. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The difficulties could be expected to arise with achieving an >>>>> appropriate rheology of the "ink" solution of Chemical A for the >>>>> piezoelectric printheads, by adjusting its surface tension and >>>>> viscosity >>>>> parameters for the best distribution in the cellulose paper fibres. >>>>> Doubtless these are deep commercial secrets, already well-understood by >>>>> the manufacturers of printer inks. A benefit would come from the "ink" >>>>> being a true solution, not a particulate suspension, so there would be >>>>> no problems of clogged printheads; there may however be issues of >>>>> corrosion and toxicity with some chemicals. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Is there anyone out there with the technical know-how to convert an >>>>> inkjet printer to this use? I'm just amazed that it seems not to have >>>>> been done already. A chemically-dedicated inkjet printer could simply >>>>> eliminate the negative and the photochemistry. This is the logical end >>>>> result of 'hybrid practices' using digital technology. Unless one chose >>>>> to embrace pure analogue photographic practice, it would be time to bid >>>>> farewell to all siderotypes! >>>>> (Meanwhile, I continue to make them...) >>>>> Mike Ware, March 2010 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Dr Mike Ware >>>>> 20 Bath Road >>>>> Buxton >>>>> Derbyshire >>>>> SK17 6HH >>>>> UK >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> +44 (0)1298 78604 >>>>> mike at mikeware.co.uk >>>>> http://www.mikeware.co.uk >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca Thu Mar 11 23:12:54 2010 From: pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca (pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:12:54 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative Exposure Unit (no pun intended) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would like to mention one other caution on the fotodiox unit. CFLs don't like to be operated in an inverted positon. (especially the larger lamps like these). The heat rises off of the lamp and overheats the electronic ballast which has some heat sensitive components. Worse, is the large number of surrounding lamps all heating each other up (480 watts for the whole lot). The inner lamps may have a very short life. I think you would need to add some forced air cooling if you wanted a reliable exposure unit. Peter Friedrichsern At 04:58 PM 03/11/2010, you wrote: >Christine, Group: > >I had been using a custom made BLB set up with 8-24" bulbs for over 15 >years. The bulbs are very expensive to replace and my exposures were 90 >seconds to 7 minutes. Last month Barry Schmetter brought in a Fotodiox unit >for me to use for a gumprint demo at the Large Format and Alternative >Photography Gathering (Metro Wash DC). Using my gum/pigment mix 1:1 with 15% >ammonium dichromate sensitizer I was able to reduce my first emulsion from 7 >minutes to 70 seconds. It was perfect. The second emulsion was correct in 30 >seconds. This unit has completely changed the way I print. > > http://www.fotodiox.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=78 fitted it >with 16 Bright Effects (swirly type; 26 watts daylight or 6000K from Lowes). >The unit is intended to sit on a lighting tripod but I added a clamp and >attach it to a heavily loaded bookcase. The unit is currently going for $135 >+ shipping. Add $30 for a clamp if you can't rig up something, a builder >pack of the bulbs, and you have a very fast, compact, and portable exposure >device. > >Best, >Carole > > > >On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 4:18 PM, Christina Anderson wrote: > > > Has anyone bought one of these and used for alt or gum? > > And what is the best URL for a plan to build one's own? Apparently the > > plan I hand out to students out of Nadeau's is incomplete, but since I am a > > building failure, I can't explain why it is incomplete. I wouldn't know a > > magnetic ballast from a martini frankly. > > Chris > > > > > > http://www.silkscreeningsupplies.com/site/799934/product/RXP2024 > > > > Christina Z. Anderson > > christinaZanderson.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > >_______________________________________________ >Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From viapiano at pacbell.net Thu Mar 11 23:17:19 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:17:19 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative Exposure Unit (no pun intended) References: Message-ID: <001d01cac170$ff6be740$c600a8c0@dell4600> Peter, thanks for these caveats...much appreciated. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 3:12 PM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative Exposure Unit (no pun intended) >I would like to mention one other caution on the fotodiox unit. > > CFLs don't like to be operated in an inverted positon. (especially the > larger lamps like these). The heat rises off of the lamp and overheats the > electronic ballast which has some heat sensitive components. Worse, is the > large number of surrounding lamps all heating each other up (480 watts for > the whole lot). The inner lamps may have a very short life. > > I think you would need to add some forced air cooling if you wanted a > reliable exposure unit. > > Peter Friedrichsern > > > > > > At 04:58 PM 03/11/2010, you wrote: >>Christine, Group: >> >>I had been using a custom made BLB set up with 8-24" bulbs for over 15 >>years. The bulbs are very expensive to replace and my exposures were 90 >>seconds to 7 minutes. Last month Barry Schmetter brought in a Fotodiox >>unit >>for me to use for a gumprint demo at the Large Format and Alternative >>Photography Gathering (Metro Wash DC). Using my gum/pigment mix 1:1 with >>15% >>ammonium dichromate sensitizer I was able to reduce my first emulsion from >>7 >>minutes to 70 seconds. It was perfect. The second emulsion was correct in >>30 >>seconds. This unit has completely changed the way I print. >> >> http://www.fotodiox.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=78 fitted >> it >>with 16 Bright Effects (swirly type; 26 watts daylight or 6000K from >>Lowes). >>The unit is intended to sit on a lighting tripod but I added a clamp and >>attach it to a heavily loaded bookcase. The unit is currently going for >>$135 >>+ shipping. Add $30 for a clamp if you can't rig up something, a builder >>pack of the bulbs, and you have a very fast, compact, and portable >>exposure >>device. >> >>Best, >>Carole >> >> >> >>On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 4:18 PM, Christina Anderson >>wrote: >> >> > Has anyone bought one of these and used for alt or gum? >> > And what is the best URL for a plan to build one's own? Apparently the >> > plan I hand out to students out of Nadeau's is incomplete, but since I >> > am a >> > building failure, I can't explain why it is incomplete. I wouldn't >> > know a >> > magnetic ballast from a martini frankly. >> > Chris >> > >> > >> > http://www.silkscreeningsupplies.com/site/799934/product/RXP2024 >> > >> > Christina Z. Anderson >> > christinaZanderson.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > >>_______________________________________________ >>Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From ender100 at aol.com Thu Mar 11 23:19:54 2010 From: ender100 at aol.com (Mark Nelson) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:19:54 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative Exposure Unit (no pun intended) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4079F642-E153-4F26-8A15-E60C29CF62BC@aol.com> Has anyone tried uv LCD lights? Mark Nelson www.PrecisionDigitalNegatives.com PDNPRint Forum @ Yahoo Groups www.MarkINelsonPhoto.com sent from my iPhonetypeDeviceThingy On Mar 11, 2010, at 6:12 PM, pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca wrote: > I would like to mention one other caution on the fotodiox unit. > > CFLs don't like to be operated in an inverted positon. (especially > the larger lamps like these). The heat rises off of the lamp and > overheats the electronic ballast which has some heat sensitive > components. Worse, is the large number of surrounding lamps all > heating each other up (480 watts for the whole lot). The inner lamps > may have a very short life. > > I think you would need to add some forced air cooling if you wanted > a reliable exposure unit. > > Peter Friedrichsern > > > > > > At 04:58 PM 03/11/2010, you wrote: >> Christine, Group: >> >> I had been using a custom made BLB set up with 8-24" bulbs for over >> 15 >> years. The bulbs are very expensive to replace and my exposures >> were 90 >> seconds to 7 minutes. Last month Barry Schmetter brought in a >> Fotodiox unit >> for me to use for a gumprint demo at the Large Format and Alternative >> Photography Gathering (Metro Wash DC). Using my gum/pigment mix 1:1 >> with 15% >> ammonium dichromate sensitizer I was able to reduce my first >> emulsion from 7 >> minutes to 70 seconds. It was perfect. The second emulsion was >> correct in 30 >> seconds. This unit has completely changed the way I print. >> >> http://www.fotodiox.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=78 >> fitted it >> with 16 Bright Effects (swirly type; 26 watts daylight or 6000K >> from Lowes). >> The unit is intended to sit on a lighting tripod but I added a >> clamp and >> attach it to a heavily loaded bookcase. The unit is currently going >> for $135 >> + shipping. Add $30 for a clamp if you can't rig up something, a >> builder >> pack of the bulbs, and you have a very fast, compact, and portable >> exposure >> device. >> >> Best, >> Carole >> >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 4:18 PM, Christina Anderson > >wrote: >> >> > Has anyone bought one of these and used for alt or gum? >> > And what is the best URL for a plan to build one's own? >> Apparently the >> > plan I hand out to students out of Nadeau's is incomplete, but >> since I am a >> > building failure, I can't explain why it is incomplete. I >> wouldn't know a >> > magnetic ballast from a martini frankly. >> > Chris >> > >> > >> > http://www.silkscreeningsupplies.com/site/799934/product/RXP2024 >> > >> > Christina Z. Anderson >> > christinaZanderson.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From jeremydmoore at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 23:23:14 2010 From: jeremydmoore at gmail.com (Jeremy Moore) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:23:14 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative Exposure Unit (no pun intended) In-Reply-To: <001d01cac170$ff6be740$c600a8c0@dell4600> References: <001d01cac170$ff6be740$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: <66575de71003111523h1c601fe8wa657a758608a1391@mail.gmail.com> And please remember to protect your eyes/skin from the UV! (Not to mention anything else in the room with this light that may break down from repeated UV exposure.) -Jeremy- > ----- Original Message ----- From: > > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" < > alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 3:12 PM > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative Exposure Unit (no pun intended) > > > > I would like to mention one other caution on the fotodiox unit. >> >> CFLs don't like to be operated in an inverted positon. (especially the >> larger lamps like these). The heat rises off of the lamp and overheats the >> electronic ballast which has some heat sensitive components. Worse, is the >> large number of surrounding lamps all heating each other up (480 watts for >> the whole lot). The inner lamps may have a very short life. >> >> I think you would need to add some forced air cooling if you wanted a >> reliable exposure unit. >> >> Peter Friedrichsern >> > From ender100 at aol.com Thu Mar 11 23:22:29 2010 From: ender100 at aol.com (Mark Nelson) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:22:29 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative Exposure Unit (no pun intended) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <941475B2-0860-4122-89C6-23F5B545B98B@aol.com> Oooops I meant has anyone tried UV LED lights? Mark Nelson www.PrecisionDigitalNegatives.com PDNPRint Forum @ Yahoo Groups www.MarkINelsonPhoto.com sent from my iPhonetypeDeviceThingy On Mar 11, 2010, at 6:12 PM, pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca wrote: > I would like to mention one other caution on the fotodiox unit. > > CFLs don't like to be operated in an inverted positon. (especially > the larger lamps like these). The heat rises off of the lamp and > overheats the electronic ballast which has some heat sensitive > components. Worse, is the large number of surrounding lamps all > heating each other up (480 watts for the whole lot). The inner lamps > may have a very short life. > > I think you would need to add some forced air cooling if you wanted > a reliable exposure unit. > > Peter Friedrichsern > > > > > > At 04:58 PM 03/11/2010, you wrote: >> Christine, Group: >> >> I had been using a custom made BLB set up with 8-24" bulbs for over >> 15 >> years. The bulbs are very expensive to replace and my exposures >> were 90 >> seconds to 7 minutes. Last month Barry Schmetter brought in a >> Fotodiox unit >> for me to use for a gumprint demo at the Large Format and Alternative >> Photography Gathering (Metro Wash DC). Using my gum/pigment mix 1:1 >> with 15% >> ammonium dichromate sensitizer I was able to reduce my first >> emulsion from 7 >> minutes to 70 seconds. It was perfect. The second emulsion was >> correct in 30 >> seconds. This unit has completely changed the way I print. >> >> http://www.fotodiox.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=78 >> fitted it >> with 16 Bright Effects (swirly type; 26 watts daylight or 6000K >> from Lowes). >> The unit is intended to sit on a lighting tripod but I added a >> clamp and >> attach it to a heavily loaded bookcase. The unit is currently going >> for $135 >> + shipping. Add $30 for a clamp if you can't rig up something, a >> builder >> pack of the bulbs, and you have a very fast, compact, and portable >> exposure >> device. >> >> Best, >> Carole >> >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 4:18 PM, Christina Anderson > >wrote: >> >> > Has anyone bought one of these and used for alt or gum? >> > And what is the best URL for a plan to build one's own? >> Apparently the >> > plan I hand out to students out of Nadeau's is incomplete, but >> since I am a >> > building failure, I can't explain why it is incomplete. I >> wouldn't know a >> > magnetic ballast from a martini frankly. >> > Chris >> > >> > >> > http://www.silkscreeningsupplies.com/site/799934/product/RXP2024 >> > >> > Christina Z. Anderson >> > christinaZanderson.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From richsul at earthlink.net Fri Mar 12 00:27:10 2010 From: richsul at earthlink.net (Richsul Sullivan) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:27:10 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's In-Reply-To: <98766a901003111235r628ad1ebv57296bd13f2c5289@mail.gmail.com> References: <73dda.eab3d84.38caa80a@aol.com> <66575de71003111216w783b0bf1k3fb982e82155a996@mail.gmail.com> <98766a901003111227p2e967921i6a0a4a6213661e99@mail.gmail.com> <98766a901003111235r628ad1ebv57296bd13f2c5289@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <037001cac17a$c30c1400$49243c00$@net> I read that too. However from 1980 onwards when I talked to the studio on the phone it was clearly assistants asking the questions and doing the printing. There seemed to be new people every month and when I inquired as to whether they were doing the printing I got lots of stonewalling and round about answers so I suspect he was not doing his own platinum printing at that point. Clearly his assembly line of assistants were not supposed to admit they were printing. His was a big studio, so it is possible that various people would answer the phone, but clearly these were technical questions ask by folks making the prints. I also periodically talked to Albert Watson, who called and asked the questions and clearly was the printing his own platinum work. Penn was apparently not an easy man to get along with. He had a hissy fit when he found out Dick Arentz was going to do a gallery talk about platinum in the ICP gallery when Penn had a show. He wouldn't do the talk but he would not allow anyone else to either. He was probably only topped by Gene Smith when it came to "get along ability." I also overhead the most off the wall description of how a platinum print was made by a big time California fashion photographer who supposedly made the prints in the show I was at. He was taking all the credit for printing the work on the wall during the reception when I knew who made them. When I introduced myself and mentioned the name of the printer he suddenly found someone else to talk to. He was actually a nice guy! He did sense that there was extra credit to be earned by making one's own prints otherwise, why bother? --Dick -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Keith Gerling Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 1:35 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's this from Penn's book Passage, page 144: "finally I arrived at the serene pleasure of making the print itself. Over the years I must have spent thousands of hours silently brushing on the liquid coatings, preparing each sheet of paper in anticipation of reaching the perfect print" On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Keith Gerling wrote: > Todd Walker made gum bichromate prints in the 60s (I think) > > > On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:16 PM, Jeremy Moore wrote: > >> Joe, >> >> >From reading what? I, like Paul, have heard both stories and would like >> to >> see citations as opposed to more second-hand information. >> >> -Jeremy- >> >> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:09 PM, wrote: >> >> > >> > >From reading I have one, Penn would come into the studio, and look at >> the >> > ground glass, make adjustments and leave. The 'technicians' actually >> lit, >> > composed and tripped the shutter. From that I would say David Vestal >> is >> > correct. >> > >> > George Tice also printed platinum in the 70's >> > >> > Joe Sarff >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > In a message dated 3/11/2010 9:41:29 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, >> > viapiano at pacbell.net writes: >> > >> > AFAIK, Irving Penn did the alt work in his studios, but of course, may >> > have >> > been helped by assistants. >> > >> > Where do you have info that can be verified that he did not print his >> alt >> > or >> > other work? >> > >> > You know, a while ago there was an article in one of the photo mags in >> > which >> > David Vestal reamed Irving Penn re: his work and implied that they guy >> > knew >> > nothing about photography. It was deplorable, and just proved to me >> that >> > Vestal had an axe to grind, but both men's work speaks for itself. >> > >> > Paul >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Richsul Sullivan" >> > To: "'The alternative photographic processes mailing list'" >> > >> > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:32 AM >> > Subject: [alt-photo] Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's >> > >> > >> > >I can use some help. I am preparing a lecture on the history of alt >> > process >> > > since WWII. >> > > >> > > I would like to know who was doing handmade and historical process >> > > photography after WWII up to 1980. I am particularly interested in >> folks >> > > working in the 1970's in what I call the early renaissance period of >> alt >> > > photography. Links to their work is helpful as well as any >> information >> > as >> > > to >> > > who was actually doing the printing, say in the case of Irving Penn, >> who >> > I >> > > believed did not print most of his own work. Hopefully the folks >> would >> > > have >> > > had some exhibitions of their works. >> > > >> > > As an example, Steve Szabo made a mark in the 70's doing platinum >> prints >> > > and >> > > Laura Gilpin continued making platinum prints post WWII until her >> death. >> > > Karl Struss had work printed by Herb Quick and I believe they were >> made >> > in >> > > the 1970's. >> > > >> > > I am not interested in silver gelatin even though some now consider >> it >> > to >> > > be >> > > alternative. >> > > >> > > Thanks! >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > > _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From richsul at earthlink.net Fri Mar 12 00:33:24 2010 From: richsul at earthlink.net (Richsul Sullivan) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:33:24 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's In-Reply-To: References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk><1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk><004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com><854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net><8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl><006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com><007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com><20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com><20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <000501cac0a2$d92e0ff0$c600a8c0@dell4600> <4B9847E7.9090600@columbia.edu> <02f501cac138$63b81c20$2b285460$@net> Message-ID: <037101cac17b$a1297f70$e37c7e50$@net> I didn't know Peter had died. Peter was quite a talent and one of a kind. I stayed with him a couple of times. I know cranky old Terry quite well. Both are classic British nonconformists and a bit hard for Americans to deal with in general. Thanks --Dick -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of geoff chaplin Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 3:16 PM To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's Terry King was I believe (terryaking at aol.com) and the late Peter Frederik. Geoff Chaplin ?????????? geoff at geoffgallery.net www.geoffgallery.net Skype: geoffchaplin1611 UK mobile (???????): +44(0) 7770 787069 Japan mobile (???????): +81(0) 90 6440 7037 Japan land line / fax (??????????): +81(0) 166 92 5855 -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Richsul Sullivan Sent: 11 March 2010 16:32 To: 'The alternative photographic processes mailing list' Subject: [alt-photo] Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's I can use some help. I am preparing a lecture on the history of alt process since WWII. I would like to know who was doing handmade and historical process photography after WWII up to 1980. I am particularly interested in folks working in the 1970's in what I call the early renaissance period of alt photography. Links to their work is helpful as well as any information as to who was actually doing the printing, say in the case of Irving Penn, who I believed did not print most of his own work. Hopefully the folks would have had some exhibitions of their works. As an example, Steve Szabo made a mark in the 70's doing platinum prints and Laura Gilpin continued making platinum prints post WWII until her death. Karl Struss had work printed by Herb Quick and I believe they were made in the 1970's. I am not interested in silver gelatin even though some now consider it to be alternative. Thanks! --Dick Sullivan _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Fri Mar 12 02:42:31 2010 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 02:42:31 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative Exposure Unit (no pun intended) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I really could not believe that gum can be exposed with light containing no UV component, so I tried. My exposure was LED light, phillips 3500K (this is on the yellow side). I recently instaleed a few of these on my track. The are 8LED's in a PAR 30 enclosure. DIstance from a single lamp was 14 inches. 6 minute exposure gave density of the gum print equivalent to 1 minute of the BL unit. Phillips explicitly states that the LED's do not emit any UV. It seems that a cooler light (6500K or so) would emit more blue component and make exposures shortes. WOW, this is impressive. Marek > From: zphoto at montana.net > Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:14:53 -0700 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative Exposure Unit (no pun intended) > > Wow, Carole, GREAT idea! Thanks > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > On Mar 11, 2010, at 2:58 PM, Gumprint wrote: > > > Christine, Group: > > > > I had been using a custom made BLB set up with 8-24" bulbs for over 15 > > years. The bulbs are very expensive to replace and my exposures were 90 > > seconds to 7 minutes. Last month Barry Schmetter brought in a Fotodiox unit > > for me to use for a gumprint demo at the Large Format and Alternative > > Photography Gathering (Metro Wash DC). Using my gum/pigment mix 1:1 with 15% > > ammonium dichromate sensitizer I was able to reduce my first emulsion from 7 > > minutes to 70 seconds. It was perfect. The second emulsion was correct in 30 > > seconds. This unit has completely changed the way I print. > > > > http://www.fotodiox.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=78 fitted it > > with 16 Bright Effects (swirly type; 26 watts daylight or 6000K from Lowes). > > The unit is intended to sit on a lighting tripod but I added a clamp and > > attach it to a heavily loaded bookcase. The unit is currently going for $135 > > + shipping. Add $30 for a clamp if you can't rig up something, a builder > > pack of the bulbs, and you have a very fast, compact, and portable exposure > > device. > > > > Best, > > Carole > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 4:18 PM, Christina Anderson wrote: > > > >> Has anyone bought one of these and used for alt or gum? > >> And what is the best URL for a plan to build one's own? Apparently the > >> plan I hand out to students out of Nadeau's is incomplete, but since I am a > >> building failure, I can't explain why it is incomplete. I wouldn't know a > >> magnetic ballast from a martini frankly. > >> Chris > >> > >> > >> http://www.silkscreeningsupplies.com/site/799934/product/RXP2024 > >> > >> Christina Z. Anderson > >> christinaZanderson.com > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/ From viapiano at pacbell.net Fri Mar 12 03:04:50 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 19:04:50 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative Exposure Unit (no pun intended) References: , Message-ID: <000701cac190$c80606d0$c600a8c0@dell4600> Marek, thank for taking this up so quickly. Can you expose another process with the lamp? Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marek Matusz" To: "alt photo" Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 6:42 PM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative Exposure Unit (no pun intended) I really could not believe that gum can be exposed with light containing no UV component, so I tried. My exposure was LED light, phillips 3500K (this is on the yellow side). I recently instaleed a few of these on my track. The are 8LED's in a PAR 30 enclosure. DIstance from a single lamp was 14 inches. 6 minute exposure gave density of the gum print equivalent to 1 minute of the BL unit. Phillips explicitly states that the LED's do not emit any UV. It seems that a cooler light (6500K or so) would emit more blue component and make exposures shortes. WOW, this is impressive. Marek > From: zphoto at montana.net > Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:14:53 -0700 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative Exposure Unit (no pun intended) > > Wow, Carole, GREAT idea! Thanks > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > On Mar 11, 2010, at 2:58 PM, Gumprint wrote: > > > Christine, Group: > > > > I had been using a custom made BLB set up with 8-24" bulbs for over 15 > > years. The bulbs are very expensive to replace and my exposures were 90 > > seconds to 7 minutes. Last month Barry Schmetter brought in a Fotodiox > > unit > > for me to use for a gumprint demo at the Large Format and Alternative > > Photography Gathering (Metro Wash DC). Using my gum/pigment mix 1:1 with > > 15% > > ammonium dichromate sensitizer I was able to reduce my first emulsion > > from 7 > > minutes to 70 seconds. It was perfect. The second emulsion was correct > > in 30 > > seconds. This unit has completely changed the way I print. > > > > http://www.fotodiox.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=78 fitted > > it > > with 16 Bright Effects (swirly type; 26 watts daylight or 6000K from > > Lowes). > > The unit is intended to sit on a lighting tripod but I added a clamp and > > attach it to a heavily loaded bookcase. The unit is currently going for > > $135 > > + shipping. Add $30 for a clamp if you can't rig up something, a builder > > pack of the bulbs, and you have a very fast, compact, and portable > > exposure > > device. > > > > Best, > > Carole > > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 4:18 PM, Christina Anderson > > wrote: > > > >> Has anyone bought one of these and used for alt or gum? > >> And what is the best URL for a plan to build one's own? Apparently the > >> plan I hand out to students out of Nadeau's is incomplete, but since I > >> am a > >> building failure, I can't explain why it is incomplete. I wouldn't know > >> a > >> magnetic ballast from a martini frankly. > >> Chris > >> > >> > >> http://www.silkscreeningsupplies.com/site/799934/product/RXP2024 > >> > >> Christina Z. Anderson > >> christinaZanderson.com > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft?s powerful SPAM protection. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From geoff at geoffgallery.net Fri Mar 12 04:07:34 2010 From: geoff at geoffgallery.net (geoff chaplin) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 04:07:34 -0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's In-Reply-To: <037101cac17b$a1297f70$e37c7e50$@net> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk><1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk><004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com><854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net><8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl><006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com><007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com><20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com><20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <000501cac0a2$d92e0ff0$c600a8c0@dell4600> <4B9847E7.9090600@columbia.edu> <02f501cac138$63b81c20$2b285460$@net> <037101cac17b$a1297f70$e37c7e50$@net> Message-ID: Ah yes! Of course Americans are no problem at all ............. Geoff Chaplin ?????????? geoff at geoffgallery.net www.geoffgallery.net Skype: geoffchaplin1611 UK mobile (???????): +44(0) 7770 787069 Japan mobile (???????): +81(0) 90 6440 7037 Japan land line / fax (??????????): +81(0) 166 92 5855 -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Richsul Sullivan Sent: 12 March 2010 00:33 To: 'The alternative photographic processes mailing list' Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's I didn't know Peter had died. Peter was quite a talent and one of a kind. I stayed with him a couple of times. I know cranky old Terry quite well. Both are classic British nonconformists and a bit hard for Americans to deal with in general. Thanks --Dick -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of geoff chaplin Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 3:16 PM To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's Terry King was I believe (terryaking at aol.com) and the late Peter Frederik. Geoff Chaplin ?????????? geoff at geoffgallery.net www.geoffgallery.net Skype: geoffchaplin1611 UK mobile (???????): +44(0) 7770 787069 Japan mobile (???????): +81(0) 90 6440 7037 Japan land line / fax (??????????): +81(0) 166 92 5855 -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Richsul Sullivan Sent: 11 March 2010 16:32 To: 'The alternative photographic processes mailing list' Subject: [alt-photo] Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's I can use some help. I am preparing a lecture on the history of alt process since WWII. I would like to know who was doing handmade and historical process photography after WWII up to 1980. I am particularly interested in folks working in the 1970's in what I call the early renaissance period of alt photography. Links to their work is helpful as well as any information as to who was actually doing the printing, say in the case of Irving Penn, who I believed did not print most of his own work. Hopefully the folks would have had some exhibitions of their works. As an example, Steve Szabo made a mark in the 70's doing platinum prints and Laura Gilpin continued making platinum prints post WWII until her death. Karl Struss had work printed by Herb Quick and I believe they were made in the 1970's. I am not interested in silver gelatin even though some now consider it to be alternative. Thanks! --Dick Sullivan _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From viapiano at pacbell.net Fri Mar 12 04:41:52 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 20:41:52 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's References: <73dda.eab3d84.38caa80a@aol.com> <66575de71003111216w783b0bf1k3fb982e82155a996@mail.gmail.com> <98766a901003111227p2e967921i6a0a4a6213661e99@mail.gmail.com><98766a901003111235r628ad1ebv57296bd13f2c5289@mail.gmail.com> <037001cac17a$c30c1400$49243c00$@net> Message-ID: <000f01cac19e$56834f00$c600a8c0@dell4600> Dick, Thank you for this information. It is well known that Penn started experimenting with pt/pd printing in the mid-1960s after coming to a realization that a photograph had to be more than just an image on a magazine page, that a print was a thing in itself, an object to be cherished. This may seem bizarre to us but we have to remember that Penn entered the business as a magazine photographer of still life and fashion. The essential purpose of his photographic endeavor was to put an image on the printed page for mass consumption. Tonight I read the list of prints in the Getty Museum's Small Trades exhibition catalog, which closed a few months ago. The museum bought the complete series, consisiting of over 250 photographs printed in both gelatin silver and pt/pd. The catalog lists only two pt/pd images printed from 1980 forward. The bulk of the pt/pd images in this series were printed in 1967, with most of the remainder made in the mid to late 1970s. Based on Penn's statement, posted previously, and the dates of the 1960-1970s prints I would tend to believe that these particular prints were made by Penn himself. Any large studio, and especially one as popular as Penn's, would be utilizing multiple assistants to keep things running smoothly. I wonder what the pt/pd output of the studio was after 1980? Had Penn completed his exploration and handed off the work to fulfill gallery requests, etc. We won't know unless someone of credibility comes forward to explain exactly what Penn's role was. I also don't own Penn's Platinum Prints book to see what the print dates on many of those are and my emails for information to the phtography curator at the National Gallery (?) have gone unanswered. (On an unrelated note, I would love to get a copy of the essay from that book...) Now, of course, photographers NOT printing their own work has a long history which continues today, but I have always respected the artists whose own hands were involved in the making of the print, that wonderful, almost magical and sacred object. OK, I'll let someone else take over the pulpit...err...uh...soapbox, now. Dick, thanks for your continuing support in the alt arena and your openness in fostering a community of like-minded artists. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richsul Sullivan" To: "'The alternative photographic processes mailing list'" Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 4:27 PM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's >I read that too. However from 1980 onwards when I talked to the studio on > the phone it was clearly assistants asking the questions and doing the > printing. There seemed to be new people every month and when I inquired as > to whether they were doing the printing I got lots of stonewalling and > round > about answers so I suspect he was not doing his own platinum printing at > that point. Clearly his assembly line of assistants were not supposed to > admit they were printing. His was a big studio, so it is possible that > various people would answer the phone, but clearly these were technical > questions ask by folks making the prints. > > I also periodically talked to Albert Watson, who called and asked the > questions and clearly was the printing his own platinum work. > > Penn was apparently not an easy man to get along with. He had a hissy fit > when he found out Dick Arentz was going to do a gallery talk about > platinum > in the ICP gallery when Penn had a show. He wouldn't do the talk but he > would not allow anyone else to either. > > He was probably only topped by Gene Smith when it came to "get along > ability." > > I also overhead the most off the wall description of how a platinum print > was made by a big time California fashion photographer who supposedly made > the prints in the show I was at. He was taking all the credit for printing > the work on the wall during the reception when I knew who made them. When > I > introduced myself and mentioned the name of the printer he suddenly found > someone else to talk to. He was actually a nice guy! He did sense that > there > was extra credit to be earned by making one's own prints otherwise, why > bother? > > --Dick > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf > Of > Keith Gerling > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 1:35 PM > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's > > this from Penn's book Passage, page 144: > > "finally I arrived at the serene pleasure of making the print itself. > Over > the years I must have spent thousands of hours silently brushing on the > liquid coatings, preparing each sheet of paper in anticipation of reaching > the perfect print" > > On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Keith Gerling > wrote: > >> Todd Walker made gum bichromate prints in the 60s (I think) >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:16 PM, Jeremy Moore > wrote: >> >>> Joe, >>> >>> >From reading what? I, like Paul, have heard both stories and would like >>> to >>> see citations as opposed to more second-hand information. >>> >>> -Jeremy- >>> >>> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 2:09 PM, wrote: >>> >>> > >>> > >From reading I have one, Penn would come into the studio, and look at >>> the >>> > ground glass, make adjustments and leave. The 'technicians' actually >>> lit, >>> > composed and tripped the shutter. From that I would say David Vestal >>> is >>> > correct. >>> > >>> > George Tice also printed platinum in the 70's >>> > >>> > Joe Sarff >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > In a message dated 3/11/2010 9:41:29 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, >>> > viapiano at pacbell.net writes: >>> > >>> > AFAIK, Irving Penn did the alt work in his studios, but of course, >>> > may >>> > have >>> > been helped by assistants. >>> > >>> > Where do you have info that can be verified that he did not print his >>> alt >>> > or >>> > other work? >>> > >>> > You know, a while ago there was an article in one of the photo mags >>> > in >>> > which >>> > David Vestal reamed Irving Penn re: his work and implied that they >>> > guy >>> > knew >>> > nothing about photography. It was deplorable, and just proved to me >>> that >>> > Vestal had an axe to grind, but both men's work speaks for itself. >>> > >>> > Paul >>> > >>> > >>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>> > From: "Richsul Sullivan" >>> > To: "'The alternative photographic processes mailing list'" >>> > >>> > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 8:32 AM >>> > Subject: [alt-photo] Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's >>> > >>> > >>> > >I can use some help. I am preparing a lecture on the history of alt >>> > process >>> > > since WWII. >>> > > >>> > > I would like to know who was doing handmade and historical process >>> > > photography after WWII up to 1980. I am particularly interested in >>> folks >>> > > working in the 1970's in what I call the early renaissance period >>> > > of >>> alt >>> > > photography. Links to their work is helpful as well as any >>> information >>> > as >>> > > to >>> > > who was actually doing the printing, say in the case of Irving >>> > > Penn, >>> who >>> > I >>> > > believed did not print most of his own work. Hopefully the folks >>> would >>> > > have >>> > > had some exhibitions of their works. >>> > > >>> > > As an example, Steve Szabo made a mark in the 70's doing platinum >>> prints >>> > > and >>> > > Laura Gilpin continued making platinum prints post WWII until her >>> death. >>> > > Karl Struss had work printed by Herb Quick and I believe they were >>> made >>> > in >>> > > the 1970's. >>> > > >>> > > I am not interested in silver gelatin even though some now consider >>> it >>> > to >>> > > be >>> > > alternative. >>> > > >>> > > Thanks! >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From jseigel at panix.com Fri Mar 12 04:42:06 2010 From: jseigel at panix.com (Judy Seigel) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:42:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotype In-Reply-To: <7888BFD4.449A.4B6D.BF6B.814F1E6593F8@aol.com> References: <7888BFD4.449A.4B6D.BF6B.814F1E6593F8@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Mar 2010, ender100 wrote: > One caution about this would be a real concern that is growing in the > conventional inkjet world, and that is the dispersion of substances into > the air by inkjet printers. ?Some printing houses are even installing > exhaust hoods on their printers. ?I certainly wouldn't want heavy metals > floating around in the air in my home. ========================= But you wouldn't want to expell them into the air where they'd get into the nose, throat, eyes & homes of your neighbors, plus plants & animals & earth of the vicinity either, would you ? J. From gumprint at gmail.com Fri Mar 12 05:17:45 2010 From: gumprint at gmail.com (gumprint at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 00:17:45 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative Exposure Unit (no pun intended) In-Reply-To: <002e01cac16b$9de6f1e0$c600a8c0@dell4600> References: <002e01cac16b$9de6f1e0$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: <371c953f1003112117g61e57bedk5ad3019ca420c005@mail.gmail.com> Paul, The unit is 10.5 inches square. With the bulbs it is 8 inches high/deep. The bulbs are arranged in an 8X8 pattern. There are 3 ways to use it; center 4 bulbs, perimeter 12 bulbs, or all 16 on at once connected to a graylab analog timer. I use all 16 at once. The print is exposed 5" from the top of the bulbs. I leave it attached to said shelf where there is another below it that the printing frame rests on. Largest print so far is 8X10. The unit is used with the bulbs pointing down but with the swivel in the clamp it could be turned to any position. I do not leave the unit on between exposures so there is no problem with heat. This may shorten the life of the bulbs, but without it being housed in some sort of cupboard, it too bright (equal to 1600 watts) to be around for long. I have not tested it with cyanotype or vandyke. For me the speed of exposure is fantastic in such a light, portable unit. The bulbs pack back up in the factory box and the unit isn't much larger than a telephone book. Together they weigh around 5 pounds. You could take it hiking :-) Carole On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 5:38 PM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > Carole... > > What are the dimensions of this unit? > > What's the largest print you've printed with it? > > How far from the contact frame is the exposure unit? > > Sounds great...would love to know more. > > Thanks...Paul > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gumprint" > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" < > alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> > Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 1:58 PM > Subject: [alt-photo] Alternative Exposure Unit (no pun intended) > > > > Christine, Group: >> >> I had been using a custom made BLB set up with 8-24" bulbs for over 15 >> years. The bulbs are very expensive to replace and my exposures were 90 >> seconds to 7 minutes. Last month Barry Schmetter brought in a Fotodiox >> unit >> for me to use for a gumprint demo at the Large Format and Alternative >> Photography Gathering (Metro Wash DC). Using my gum/pigment mix 1:1 with >> 15% >> ammonium dichromate sensitizer I was able to reduce my first emulsion from >> 7 >> minutes to 70 seconds. It was perfect. The second emulsion was correct in >> 30 >> seconds. This unit has completely changed the way I print. >> >> http://www.fotodiox.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=78 fitted it >> with 16 Bright Effects (swirly type; 26 watts daylight or 6000K from >> Lowes). >> The unit is intended to sit on a lighting tripod but I added a clamp and >> attach it to a heavily loaded bookcase. The unit is currently going for >> $135 >> + shipping. Add $30 for a clamp if you can't rig up something, a builder >> pack of the bulbs, and you have a very fast, compact, and portable >> exposure >> device. >> >> Best, >> Carole >> >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 4:18 PM, Christina Anderson > >wrote: >> >> Has anyone bought one of these and used for alt or gum? >>> And what is the best URL for a plan to build one's own? Apparently the >>> plan I hand out to students out of Nadeau's is incomplete, but since I am >>> a >>> building failure, I can't explain why it is incomplete. I wouldn't know >>> a >>> magnetic ballast from a martini frankly. >>> Chris >>> >>> >>> http://www.silkscreeningsupplies.com/site/799934/product/RXP2024 >>> >>> Christina Z. Anderson >>> christinaZanderson.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From viapiano at pacbell.net Fri Mar 12 05:23:33 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 21:23:33 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative Exposure Unit (no pun intended) References: <002e01cac16b$9de6f1e0$c600a8c0@dell4600> <371c953f1003112117g61e57bedk5ad3019ca420c005@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001e01cac1a4$296bac00$c600a8c0@dell4600> Thanks, Carole...much appreciated! Where can we see your prints? Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 9:17 PM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative Exposure Unit (no pun intended) > Paul, > > The unit is 10.5 inches square. With the bulbs it is 8 inches high/deep. > The > bulbs are arranged in an 8X8 pattern. > > There are 3 ways to use it; center 4 bulbs, perimeter 12 bulbs, or all 16 > on > at once connected to a graylab analog timer. I use all 16 at once. > > The print is exposed 5" from the top of the bulbs. I leave it attached to > said shelf where there is another below it that the printing frame rests > on. > > Largest print so far is 8X10. > > The unit is used with the bulbs pointing down but with the swivel in the > clamp it could be turned to any position. > > I do not leave the unit on between exposures so there is no problem with > heat. This may shorten the life of the bulbs, but without it being housed > in > some sort of cupboard, it too bright (equal to 1600 watts) to be around > for > long. > > I have not tested it with cyanotype or vandyke. > > For me the speed of exposure is fantastic in such a light, portable unit. > The bulbs pack back up in the factory box and the unit isn't much larger > than a telephone book. Together they weigh around 5 pounds. You could take > it hiking :-) > > Carole From keith at jkschreiber.com Fri Mar 12 05:32:04 2010 From: keith at jkschreiber.com (Keith Schreiber) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:32:04 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's In-Reply-To: References: <73dda.eab3d84.38caa80a@aol.com> <66575de71003111216w783b0bf1k3fb982e82155a996@mail.gmail.com> <98766a901003111227p2e967921i6a0a4a6213661e99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: A few more off the top of my head (and that I think fit your time criteria) to add to Chris's excellent list: Barbara Crane Naomi Savage Bobbe Besold Gail Skoff Dean Brown Joan Lyons Meridel Rubenstein Keith Smith Melanie Walker This is all from my sketchy memory of the CCP Collection. They have several group portfolios from the 70s that are mostly, if not entirely, alt-process work of one sort or another. Check this link for more: http://www.creativephotography.org/collections/art/ Cheers, Keith On Mar 11, 2010, at 2:00 PM, Christina Anderson wrote: > Depends on what you are terming "alt" but here are a few (please forgive misspellings--don't have time to check out names right now); also depends if you want famous or not so famous: > Ansel Adams (JOKE) > Todd Walker > Kay Kenny > Judy Siegel > Betty Hahn > Bea Nettles > Henry Holmes Smith > Sam Wang > Edmund Teske > William Mortensen > Paul Anderson > Thomas Barrow > Ellen Land Weber > Scott Hyde > Eileen Cowin > Martha Casanave perhaps (she'd be a good one to ask) > Robert Fichter > Lois Conner > James Hajicek > Robert Heinecken > Paul Kilmer > John Wood > Sheila Metzner > Deborah Turbeville (these latter two may be past your bracket of 1945-1980) > etc etc etc etc > Try to buy on Abebooks The Alternative Image catalog from 1982. Some good history there. > U of Florida was rampant alt back "in the day". > Chris > > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com From jseigel at panix.com Fri Mar 12 06:00:40 2010 From: jseigel at panix.com (Judy Seigel) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 01:00:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's In-Reply-To: <98766a901003111235r628ad1ebv57296bd13f2c5289@mail.gmail.com> References: <73dda.eab3d84.38caa80a@aol.com> <66575de71003111216w783b0bf1k3fb982e82155a996@mail.gmail.com> <98766a901003111227p2e967921i6a0a4a6213661e99@mail.gmail.com> <98766a901003111235r628ad1ebv57296bd13f2c5289@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Mar 2010, Keith Gerling wrote: >> Todd Walker made gum bichromate prints in the 60s (I think)>> It's really demoralizing... (I mean besides worrying about those paractitioners and the evil schemes they harbour for our long suffering bodies), what I mean is, you think some dates are perfectly engraved in your mind & a few years later you find they've floated out to sea... On top of which, a week or so ago I couldn't even find my copy of Newhall... Still, I have some books around that taught things like gum printing from the earliest days of the 20th century (well before the materials & processes of photography were standardized by Kodak)... I suppose still an extension of the pictorial processes of late 19th century... If Malin's Website "alternativephotography.com" is still up, that had a pretty good intro... and as I recall I wrote a thing about gum she put up there, that I used as intro to the first Post-Factory (probably 1998), with, among other items, for instance: Puyo and Demachy first published in the Photo Club de Paris what they called "Art Processes in Photography" in 1906; Demachy's first steps into gum printing were 1889 (page 4, P-F #1)... Gertrude Kasebier was about then, and Julia Margaret Cameron began with Cyanotype in.... what????... the very first days of photography... like 1809. I suspect that anyone who hasn't got their copy of Newhall buried under 27 layers of debris, could find these dates & many more... J. From jseigel at panix.com Fri Mar 12 07:11:31 2010 From: jseigel at panix.com (Judy Seigel) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 02:11:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's In-Reply-To: References: <73dda.eab3d84.38caa80a@aol.com> <66575de71003111216w783b0bf1k3fb982e82155a996@mail.gmail.com> <98766a901003111227p2e967921i6a0a4a6213661e99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Mar 2010, Christina Anderson wrote: >>>> You know, a while ago there was an article in one of the photo mags in >>>> which >>>> David Vestal reamed Irving Penn re: his work and implied that they guy >>>> knew >>>> nothing about photography. It was deplorable, and just proved to me that >>>> Vestal had an axe to grind, but both men's work speaks for itself. >>>> >>>> Paul Is Irving Penn some kind of saint, that to disparage him is sin? Odds are anyway we learn more from the crit than we do from same old same old... But I don't recall having read photo crit (or anything else) from Penn, so his opinions are moot. I have however read a lot of Vestal and find him thoughtful and provocative. (Not to mention that if we never grind our axes, they get too blunt for damn all... ) J. From viapiano at pacbell.net Fri Mar 12 07:17:17 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 23:17:17 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's References: <73dda.eab3d84.38caa80a@aol.com><66575de71003111216w783b0bf1k3fb982e82155a996@mail.gmail.com><98766a901003111227p2e967921i6a0a4a6213661e99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000301cac1b4$0ca31990$c600a8c0@dell4600> No saint...the spirit and tone of the comments were mean and beyond criticism. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Judy Seigel" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 11:11 PM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's > > > On Thu, 11 Mar 2010, Christina Anderson wrote: >>>>> You know, a while ago there was an article in one of the photo mags >>>>> in >>>>> which >>>>> David Vestal reamed Irving Penn re: his work and implied that they >>>>> guy >>>>> knew >>>>> nothing about photography. It was deplorable, and just proved to me >>>>> that >>>>> Vestal had an axe to grind, but both men's work speaks for itself. >>>>> >>>>> Paul > > Is Irving Penn some kind of saint, that to disparage him is sin? Odds are > anyway we learn more from the crit than we do from same old same old... > But I don't recall having read photo crit (or anything else) from Penn, so > his opinions are moot. I have however read a lot of Vestal and find him > thoughtful and provocative. (Not to mention that if we never grind our > axes, they get too blunt for damn all... ) > > J. > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From jseigel at panix.com Fri Mar 12 07:29:17 2010 From: jseigel at panix.com (Judy Seigel) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 02:29:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's In-Reply-To: <000301cac1b4$0ca31990$c600a8c0@dell4600> References: <73dda.eab3d84.38caa80a@aol.com><66575de71003111216w783b0bf1k3fb982e82155a996@mail.gmail.com><98766a901003111227p2e967921i6a0a4a6213661e99@mail.gmail.com> <000301cac1b4$0ca31990$c600a8c0@dell4600> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Mar 2010, Paul Viapiano wrote: > No saint...the spirit and tone of the comments were mean and beyond > criticism. > I missed the comments... and since I am the most circumspect of critics, I would never opine out of thin air. J. From alt.list at albertonovo.it Fri Mar 12 07:39:04 2010 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:39:04 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative Exposure Unit (no pun intended) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100312073904.12017.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> > I did an experiment that confirmed this. I cut up some blue, green, > yellow, and red lighting gels into squares and mounted them on a > transparent sheet... I don't know if this is a good experiment. Months ago, speaking about the best ink for blocking UV for negatives, at the end there was a general agreement that the visible color has no correlation with the opacity in the UV range. Alberto From alt.list at albertonovo.it Fri Mar 12 07:40:19 2010 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:40:19 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: exposure unit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100312074020.13682.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> Christina, > I wouldn't know a magnetic ballast from a martini frankly. Try drinking a magnetic ballast... :-)) Alberto From tom at sobota.net Fri Mar 12 09:42:31 2010 From: tom at sobota.net (Tomas Sobota) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:42:31 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: exposure unit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris, I built my unit (UV tubes and ballasts) from scratch, it is a fairly easy task. I could produce and send you drawings and pictures, if you want. Tom Sobota Madrid, Spain On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 10:18 PM, Christina Anderson wrote: > Has anyone bought one of these and used for alt or gum? > And what is the best URL for a plan to build one's own? Apparently the > plan I hand out to students out of Nadeau's is incomplete, but since I am a > building failure, I can't explain why it is incomplete. I wouldn't know a > magnetic ballast from a martini frankly. > Chris > > > http://www.silkscreeningsupplies.com/site/799934/product/RXP2024 > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From mail at loris.medici.name Fri Mar 12 10:09:39 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:09:39 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: exposure unit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Christina, if you have it the book The New Platinum Print by Richard Sullivan & Carl Weese, it does have a nice diagram / building instructions in the appendices section... -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf Of Tomas Sobota Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 11:43 AM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: exposure unit Chris, I built my unit (UV tubes and ballasts) from scratch, it is a fairly easy task. I could produce and send you drawings and pictures, if you want. Tom Sobota Madrid, Spain On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 10:18 PM, Christina Anderson wrote: > Has anyone bought one of these and used for alt or gum? > And what is the best URL for a plan to build one's own? Apparently > the plan I hand out to students out of Nadeau's is incomplete, but > since I am a building failure, I can't explain why it is incomplete. > I wouldn't know a magnetic ballast from a martini frankly. > Chris > > > http://www.silkscreeningsupplies.com/site/799934/product/RXP2024 From ctb at zeelandnet.nl Fri Mar 12 10:46:18 2010 From: ctb at zeelandnet.nl (Kees Brandenburg) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:46:18 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: exposure unit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > And what is the best URL for a plan to build one's own? This is how I did it: http://polychrome.nl/techlog/simple-and-cheap-uv-unit kees polychrome.nl | workshops From michel at debar.org Fri Mar 12 11:59:54 2010 From: michel at debar.org (Michel Debar) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:59:54 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: exposure unit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25a4fcdd1003120359m3453d9ado2fc7159f496851c9@mail.gmail.com> ... and to complement Kees's message : the best efficiency is obtained when using electronic ballasts, rather than the older magnetic ones. See for instance this text for some more information on the question : http://prudentialtechgy.com/data/UVballastsenterelectronicage-artricle-ML.pdf *michel* 2010/3/12 Kees Brandenburg > > And what is the best URL for a plan to build one's own? > > This is how I did it: > http://polychrome.nl/techlog/simple-and-cheap-uv-unit > > kees > > polychrome.nl | workshops > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > -- Michel Debar 11, chemin du Fort Saint-H?ribert 5100 W?pion Belgique T?l. +32 (081) 4612 04 - +32 (0485) 72 83 92 From frangst at gmail.com Fri Mar 12 13:10:33 2010 From: frangst at gmail.com (francis schanberger) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:10:33 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: exposure unit In-Reply-To: <25a4fcdd1003120359m3453d9ado2fc7159f496851c9@mail.gmail.com> References: <25a4fcdd1003120359m3453d9ado2fc7159f496851c9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4c6fbba01003120510k7ab83212ra437314c25f54293@mail.gmail.com> I take it that magnetic ballasts are the big heavy bricks that I helped my dad replace in our old fluorescent light fixtures in the 1980's. I wanted to say I found a drink in Mr. Boston's called the magnetic ballast but alas no. -francis On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 6:59 AM, Michel Debar wrote: > ... and to complement Kees's message : > > the best efficiency is obtained when using electronic ballasts, rather than > the older magnetic ones. See for instance this text for some more > information on the question : > > http://prudentialtechgy.com/data/UVballastsenterelectronicage-artricle-ML.pdf > > *michel* > > 2010/3/12 Kees Brandenburg > > > > And what is the best URL for a plan to build one's own? > > > > This is how I did it: > > http://polychrome.nl/techlog/simple-and-cheap-uv-unit > > > > kees > > > > polychrome.nl | workshops > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > > > > -- > Michel Debar > 11, chemin du Fort Saint-H?ribert > 5100 W?pion Belgique > > T?l. +32 (081) 4612 04 - +32 (0485) 72 83 92 > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > -- francis schanberger www.frangst.com From trevor at chalkjockeys.com Fri Mar 12 13:29:34 2010 From: trevor at chalkjockeys.com (Trevor Cunningham) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:29:34 +0300 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: exposure unit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B9A41BE.40901@chalkjockeys.com> I'll take you up on that offer, Tom. Tomas Sobota wrote: > Chris, > I built my unit (UV tubes and ballasts) from scratch, it is a fairly easy > task. I could produce and send you drawings and pictures, if you want. > > Tom Sobota > Madrid, Spain > > On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 10:18 PM, Christina Anderson wrote: > > >> Has anyone bought one of these and used for alt or gum? >> And what is the best URL for a plan to build one's own? Apparently the >> plan I hand out to students out of Nadeau's is incomplete, but since I am a >> building failure, I can't explain why it is incomplete. I wouldn't know a >> magnetic ballast from a martini frankly. >> Chris >> >> >> http://www.silkscreeningsupplies.com/site/799934/product/RXP2024 >> >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > From john at johnbrewerphotography.com Fri Mar 12 13:57:45 2010 From: john at johnbrewerphotography.com (John Brewer) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 13:57:45 -0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: exposure unit In-Reply-To: <4B9A41BE.40901@chalkjockeys.com> References: <4B9A41BE.40901@chalkjockeys.com> Message-ID: <00ef01cac1eb$fdcbfd00$f963f700$@com> Could I do the same Tom? I'd like something bigger, as I can only get A4 at a push at the moment. John. -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Trevor Cunningham Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 1:30 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: exposure unit I'll take you up on that offer, Tom. Tomas Sobota wrote: > Chris, > I built my unit (UV tubes and ballasts) from scratch, it is a fairly easy > task. I could produce and send you drawings and pictures, if you want. > > Tom Sobota > Madrid, Spain > > On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 10:18 PM, Christina Anderson wrote: > > >> Has anyone bought one of these and used for alt or gum? >> And what is the best URL for a plan to build one's own? Apparently the >> plan I hand out to students out of Nadeau's is incomplete, but since I am a >> building failure, I can't explain why it is incomplete. I wouldn't know a >> magnetic ballast from a martini frankly. >> Chris >> >> >> http://www.silkscreeningsupplies.com/site/799934/product/RXP2024 >> >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2736 - Release Date: 03/11/10 21:50:00 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2736 - Release Date: 03/11/10 21:50:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2739 - Release Date: 03/11/10 21:50:00 From zphoto at montana.net Fri Mar 12 14:11:18 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 07:11:18 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: exposure unit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28116221-0169-442E-B5C1-05DA215DCC75@montana.net> Anything you're willing to give would be great, Tom! Chris PS Alberto, you got me on the martini/ballast there, LOL Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Mar 12, 2010, at 2:42 AM, Tomas Sobota wrote: > Chris, > I built my unit (UV tubes and ballasts) from scratch, it is a fairly easy > task. I could produce and send you drawings and pictures, if you want. > > Tom Sobota > Madrid, Spain From zphoto at montana.net Fri Mar 12 14:12:33 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 07:12:33 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: exposure unit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96B158E2-54BD-48DA-995D-8B124352CB04@montana.net> Kees, About how much do you think this cost to make? Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Mar 12, 2010, at 3:46 AM, Kees Brandenburg wrote: >> And what is the best URL for a plan to build one's own? > > This is how I did it: http://polychrome.nl/techlog/simple-and-cheap-uv-unit > > kees > > polychrome.nl | workshops > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From ctb at zeelandnet.nl Fri Mar 12 14:48:33 2010 From: ctb at zeelandnet.nl (Kees Brandenburg) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 15:48:33 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: exposure unit In-Reply-To: <96B158E2-54BD-48DA-995D-8B124352CB04@montana.net> References: <96B158E2-54BD-48DA-995D-8B124352CB04@montana.net> Message-ID: <8893193E-9D33-4F56-9496-2BAA3CB88399@zeelandnet.nl> > Kees, > About how much do you think this cost to make? > Chris Hi Chris, all .nl prizes: UV tubes are ? 8 euro Cheapest 20W TL fixtures are ? 6 euro with normal TL tube included (sell them on ebay!) Some plywood ? 10 euro Total for 10 tubes 150 euro (minus sold TL tubes) kees From tom at sobota.net Fri Mar 12 15:16:47 2010 From: tom at sobota.net (Tomas Sobota) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:16:47 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: exposure unit In-Reply-To: <28116221-0169-442E-B5C1-05DA215DCC75@montana.net> References: <28116221-0169-442E-B5C1-05DA215DCC75@montana.net> Message-ID: Chris, Trevor, John, Please give me a couple days, I'll pull the unit from it's enclosure, do the drawings, take a few pics and send all to your personal mails. My unit has 12 BL tubes. Each tube is 60cm (a little less than 24") long, so the whole unit is some 26" square. Tom Sobota Madrid, Spain On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 3:11 PM, Christina Anderson wrote: > Anything you're willing to give would be great, Tom! > Chris > PS Alberto, you got me on the martini/ballast there, LOL > > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > On Mar 12, 2010, at 2:42 AM, Tomas Sobota wrote: > > > Chris, > > I built my unit (UV tubes and ballasts) from scratch, it is a fairly easy > > task. I could produce and send you drawings and pictures, if you want. > > > > Tom Sobota > > Madrid, Spain > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From john at johnbrewerphotography.com Fri Mar 12 15:29:17 2010 From: john at johnbrewerphotography.com (John Brewer) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 15:29:17 -0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: exposure unit In-Reply-To: References: <28116221-0169-442E-B5C1-05DA215DCC75@montana.net> Message-ID: <011401cac1f8$c73f3920$55bdab60$@com> Thanks Tom. J -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Tomas Sobota Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 3:17 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: exposure unit Chris, Trevor, John, Please give me a couple days, I'll pull the unit from it's enclosure, do the drawings, take a few pics and send all to your personal mails. My unit has 12 BL tubes. Each tube is 60cm (a little less than 24") long, so the whole unit is some 26" square. Tom Sobota Madrid, Spain On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 3:11 PM, Christina Anderson wrote: > Anything you're willing to give would be great, Tom! > Chris > PS Alberto, you got me on the martini/ballast there, LOL > > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > On Mar 12, 2010, at 2:42 AM, Tomas Sobota wrote: > > > Chris, > > I built my unit (UV tubes and ballasts) from scratch, it is a fairly easy > > task. I could produce and send you drawings and pictures, if you want. > > > > Tom Sobota > > Madrid, Spain > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2736 - Release Date: 03/11/10 21:50:00 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2736 - Release Date: 03/11/10 21:50:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2739 - Release Date: 03/11/10 21:50:00 From trevor at chalkjockeys.com Fri Mar 12 15:32:56 2010 From: trevor at chalkjockeys.com (Trevor Cunningham) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 18:32:56 +0300 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: exposure unit In-Reply-To: References: <28116221-0169-442E-B5C1-05DA215DCC75@montana.net> Message-ID: <4B9A5EA8.1040107@chalkjockeys.com> Awesome. Please take your time. Tomas Sobota wrote: > Chris, Trevor, John, > Please give me a couple days, I'll pull the unit from it's enclosure, do the > drawings, take a few pics and send all to your personal mails. My unit has > 12 BL tubes. Each tube is 60cm (a little less than 24") long, so the whole > unit is some 26" square. > > Tom Sobota > Madrid, Spain > > On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 3:11 PM, Christina Anderson wrote: > > >> Anything you're willing to give would be great, Tom! >> Chris >> PS Alberto, you got me on the martini/ballast there, LOL >> >> >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> >> On Mar 12, 2010, at 2:42 AM, Tomas Sobota wrote: >> >> >>> Chris, >>> I built my unit (UV tubes and ballasts) from scratch, it is a fairly easy >>> task. I could produce and send you drawings and pictures, if you want. >>> >>> Tom Sobota >>> Madrid, Spain >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > From richsul at earthlink.net Fri Mar 12 16:12:14 2010 From: richsul at earthlink.net (Richsul Sullivan) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:12:14 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's In-Reply-To: References: <73dda.eab3d84.38caa80a@aol.com> <66575de71003111216w783b0bf1k3fb982e82155a996@mail.gmail.com> <98766a901003111227p2e967921i6a0a4a6213661e99@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <005a01cac1fe$c86b7560$59426020$@net> Thanks to all for your input. I have way more than needed for an hour lecture and PPT. The problem now is to filter out the ones that were seminal in moving the art along. Todd Walker and Teske clearly were big influences as they spread the arts through their students. In fact, I remember Teske carefu8lly mentioning Todd in regards to his sabbatier/toning process, not really giving Todd credit for turning him on to it. Teske had a heart of gold and an ego bigger than Texas and was truly a person one would never forget. He taught in his home studio just off Hollywood Blvd. The only beer allowed in class was Heineken, in tribute to Bob who took him on at UCLA despite his very unconventional teaching methods. This was a UCLA class in the early 70's. On one occasion Isherwood and Bachardy dropped by. Of course at the time I had no idea who Isherwood was. This was the early 70's and gay was something done in a closet. Teske had no closet. In that he was one of the pioneers. Sorry to ramble on but I owe a lot to him. --Dick -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Judy Seigel Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 12:12 AM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's On Thu, 11 Mar 2010, Christina Anderson wrote: >>>> You know, a while ago there was an article in one of the photo mags in >>>> which >>>> David Vestal reamed Irving Penn re: his work and implied that they guy >>>> knew >>>> nothing about photography. It was deplorable, and just proved to me that >>>> Vestal had an axe to grind, but both men's work speaks for itself. >>>> >>>> Paul Is Irving Penn some kind of saint, that to disparage him is sin? Odds are anyway we learn more from the crit than we do from same old same old... But I don't recall having read photo crit (or anything else) from Penn, so his opinions are moot. I have however read a lot of Vestal and find him thoughtful and provocative. (Not to mention that if we never grind our axes, they get too blunt for damn all... ) J. _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From ender100 at aol.com Fri Mar 12 16:24:20 2010 From: ender100 at aol.com (ender100) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:24:20 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's In-Reply-To: <005a01cac1fe$c86b7560$59426020$@net> Message-ID: Richard, Is there a source you can recommend for reading on Sabbatier Effect with PT/PD? Thanks -- Best Wishes, Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negatives PDNPrint Forum @ Yahoo Groups Mark Nelson Photography On Mar 12, 2010, at 11:12:14 AM, "Richsul Sullivan" wrote: From: "Richsul Sullivan" Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's Date: March 12, 2010 11:12:14 AM EST To: "'The alternative photographic processes mailing list'" Thanks to all for your input. I have way more than needed for an hour lecture and PPT. The problem now is to filter out the ones that were seminal in moving the art along. Todd Walker and Teske clearly were big influences as they spread the arts through their students. In fact, I remember Teske carefu8lly mentioning Todd in regards to his sabbatier/toning process, not really giving Todd credit for turning him on to it. Teske had a heart of gold and an ego bigger than Texas and was truly a person one would never forget. He taught in his home studio just off Hollywood Blvd. The only beer allowed in class was Heineken, in tribute to Bob who took him on at UCLA despite his very unconventional teaching methods. This was a UCLA class in the early 70's. On one occasion Isherwood and Bachardy dropped by. Of course at the time I had no idea who Isherwood was. This was the early 70's and gay was something done in a closet. Teske had no closet. In that he was one of the pioneers.? Sorry to ramble on but I owe a lot to him. --Dick -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Judy Seigel Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 12:12 AM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's On Thu, 11 Mar 2010, Christina Anderson wrote: >>>> You know, a while ago there was an article in one of the photo mags in >>>> which >>>> David Vestal reamed Irving Penn re: his work and implied that they guy >>>> knew >>>> nothing about photography. It was deplorable, and just proved to me that >>>> Vestal had an axe to grind, but both men's work speaks for itself. >>>> >>>> Paul Is Irving Penn some kind of saint, that to disparage him is sin? Odds are? anyway we learn more from the crit than we do from same old same old...? But I don't recall having read photo crit (or anything else) from Penn, so? his opinions are moot. I have however read a lot of Vestal and find him? thoughtful and provocative. (Not to mention that if we never grind our? axes, they get too blunt for damn all... ) J. _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From walter23 at gmail.com Fri Mar 12 16:47:11 2010 From: walter23 at gmail.com (walter) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:47:11 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotypes Message-ID: <77502711003120847x20f2851ak9548827673dd6ba5@mail.gmail.com> It's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure I really see any advantages (other than maybe being able to call your prints "platinotypes" in the gallery to try to squeeze a bit more money out of them), and I can sure see a lot of disadvantages. Not the least of which is the R&D required to make this work, which is not going to be insignificant. If you just want a stable B&W inkjet print on nice paper, just buy a piezography CIS and be done with it! There are already a lot of alternative ink manufacturers out there, and they use very nice (and stable) carbon pigments. From richsul at earthlink.net Fri Mar 12 16:52:11 2010 From: richsul at earthlink.net (Richsul Sullivan) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:52:11 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's In-Reply-To: References: <005a01cac1fe$c86b7560$59426020$@net> Message-ID: <006701cac204$5da54390$18efcab0$@net> Mark, Good question. I've never seen one. I don't know of anyone who has used the effect in PT. In fact it may be true solarization and not Sabbatier. I've seen "black suns in prints due to what I believe is solarization and not Sabattier. Someone may be able to claify this. --Dick -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of ender100 Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 9:24 AM To: richsul at earthlink.net, The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's Richard, Is there a source you can recommend for reading on Sabbatier Effect with PT/PD? Thanks -- Best Wishes, Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negatives PDNPrint Forum @ Yahoo Groups Mark Nelson Photography On Mar 12, 2010, at 11:12:14 AM, "Richsul Sullivan" wrote: From: "Richsul Sullivan" Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's Date: March 12, 2010 11:12:14 AM EST To: "'The alternative photographic processes mailing list'" Thanks to all for your input. I have way more than needed for an hour lecture and PPT. The problem now is to filter out the ones that were seminal in moving the art along. Todd Walker and Teske clearly were big influences as they spread the arts through their students. In fact, I remember Teske carefu8lly mentioning Todd in regards to his sabbatier/toning process, not really giving Todd credit for turning him on to it. Teske had a heart of gold and an ego bigger than Texas and was truly a person one would never forget. He taught in his home studio just off Hollywood Blvd. The only beer allowed in class was Heineken, in tribute to Bob who took him on at UCLA despite his very unconventional teaching methods. This was a UCLA class in the early 70's. On one occasion Isherwood and Bachardy dropped by. Of course at the time I had no idea who Isherwood was. This was the early 70's and gay was something done in a closet. Teske had no closet. In that he was one of the pioneers.? Sorry to ramble on but I owe a lot to him. --Dick -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Judy Seigel Sent: Friday, March 12, 2010 12:12 AM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's On Thu, 11 Mar 2010, Christina Anderson wrote: >>>> You know, a while ago there was an article in one of the photo mags in >>>> which >>>> David Vestal reamed Irving Penn re: his work and implied that they guy >>>> knew >>>> nothing about photography. It was deplorable, and just proved to me that >>>> Vestal had an axe to grind, but both men's work speaks for itself. >>>> >>>> Paul Is Irving Penn some kind of saint, that to disparage him is sin? Odds are? anyway we learn more from the crit than we do from same old same old...? But I don't recall having read photo crit (or anything else) from Penn, so? his opinions are moot. I have however read a lot of Vestal and find him? thoughtful and provocative. (Not to mention that if we never grind our? axes, they get too blunt for damn all... ) J. _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From ender100 at aol.com Fri Mar 12 17:42:41 2010 From: ender100 at aol.com (ender100) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:42:41 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotypes In-Reply-To: <77502711003120847x20f2851ak9548827673dd6ba5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2A6C0A70.950D.46A9.9F77.4CB93BCCF8F0@aol.com> ...and if you don't want to go to the hassle of piezography.... just buy an Epson and use the Advanced Black & White option right out of the box....pretty damned good! -- Best Wishes, Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negatives PDNPrint Forum @ Yahoo Groups Mark Nelson Photography On Mar 12, 2010, at 11:47:11 AM, walter wrote: From: walter Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotypes Date: March 12, 2010 11:47:11 AM EST To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org It's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure I really see any advantages (other than maybe being able to call your prints "platinotypes" in the gallery to try to squeeze a bit more money out of them), and I can sure see a lot of disadvantages. Not the least of which is the R&D required to make this work, which is not going to be insignificant. If you just want a stable B&W inkjet print on nice paper, just buy a piezography CIS and be done with it! There are already a lot of alternative ink manufacturers out there, and they use very nice (and stable) carbon pigments. _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From info at permadocument.be Fri Mar 12 19:49:46 2010 From: info at permadocument.be (info at permadocument.be) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 20:49:46 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's In-Reply-To: <02f501cac138$63b81c20$2b285460$@net> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk><1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk><004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com><854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net><8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl><006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com><007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com><20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com><20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <000501cac0a2$d92e0ff0$c600a8c0@dell4600> <4B9847E7.9090600@columbia.edu> <02f501cac138$63b81c20$2b285460$@net> Message-ID: <20100312204946.14876f4ey0uvijmi@horde1.alternet.be> Dear Dick, Belgium, as a small country, did not have many adepts of alternative processes. I have been in "alternative" since the late 1960's with a study on a process derived from orotone. The perfect stability of the results prompted me recently to reuse the process which I now call "orotype". Exemples on: http://www.permadocument.be/texte/YRK/RFK/RK/RKE3.html In the early 1970's I aexperimented with different image supports and processes derived from etching techniques. These experiments have later been a good support for my teaching programms in photographic conservation-restoration. With best regards Roger Kockaerts 7 rue des Balkans B-1180 Brussesls, Belgium. www.permadocument.be Quoting "Richsul Sullivan" : > I can use some help. I am preparing a lecture on the history of alt process > since WWII. > > I would like to know who was doing handmade and historical process > photography after WWII up to 1980. I am particularly interested in folks > working in the 1970's in what I call the early renaissance period of alt > photography. Links to their work is helpful as well as any information as to > who was actually doing the printing, say in the case of Irving Penn, who I > believed did not print most of his own work. Hopefully the folks would have > had some exhibitions of their works. > > As an example, Steve Szabo made a mark in the 70's doing platinum prints and > Laura Gilpin continued making platinum prints post WWII until her death. > Karl Struss had work printed by Herb Quick and I believe they were made in > the 1970's. > > I am not interested in silver gelatin even though some now consider it to be > alternative. > > Thanks! > > --Dick Sullivan > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From mail at loris.medici.name Fri Mar 12 20:36:00 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 22:36:00 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's In-Reply-To: <20100312204946.14876f4ey0uvijmi@horde1.alternet.be> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net> <007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com> <20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com> <20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <000501cac0a2$d92e0ff0$c600a8c0@dell4600> <4B9847E7.9090600@columbia.edu> <02f501cac138$63b81c20$2b285460$@net> <20100312204946.14876f4ey0uvijmi@horde1.alternet.be> Message-ID: <725fa8581003121236i7787fcc2wce2579d75808c313@mail.gmail.com> Roger, where have you photographed those opium poppies? BTW, did you know we have a city named after opium here in Turkey? Afyonkarahisar... (Afyon: Opium Karahisar: Dark Castle) We have many baked goods which are seasoned with poppy seeds. (Yummy!) Regards, Loris. 2010/3/12 > Dear Dick, > Belgium, as a small country, did not have many adepts of alternative > processes. > I have been in "alternative" since the late 1960's with a study on a > process derived from orotone. The perfect stability of the results > prompted me recently to reuse the process which I now call "orotype". > Exemples on: http://www.permadocument.be/texte/YRK/RFK/RK/RKE3.html > In the early 1970's I aexperimented with different image supports and > processes derived from etching techniques. These experiments have > later been a good support for my teaching programms in photographic > conservation-restoration. > With best regards > > Roger Kockaerts > 7 rue des Balkans > B-1180 Brussesls, Belgium. > www.permadocument.be > > > Quoting "Richsul Sullivan" : > > I can use some help. I am preparing a lecture on the history of alt >> process >> since WWII. >> >> I would like to know who was doing handmade and historical process >> photography after WWII up to 1980. I am particularly interested in folks >> working in the 1970's in what I call the early renaissance period of alt >> photography. Links to their work is helpful as well as any information as >> to >> who was actually doing the printing, say in the case of Irving Penn, who I >> believed did not print most of his own work. Hopefully the folks would >> have >> had some exhibitions of their works. >> >> As an example, Steve Szabo made a mark in the 70's doing platinum prints >> and >> Laura Gilpin continued making platinum prints post WWII until her death. >> Karl Struss had work printed by Herb Quick and I believe they were made in >> the 1970's. >> >> I am not interested in silver gelatin even though some now consider it to >> be >> alternative. >> >> Thanks! >> >> --Dick Sullivan >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From mail at loris.medici.name Fri Mar 12 20:42:22 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 22:42:22 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's In-Reply-To: <725fa8581003121236i7787fcc2wce2579d75808c313@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net> <20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com> <20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <000501cac0a2$d92e0ff0$c600a8c0@dell4600> <4B9847E7.9090600@columbia.edu> <02f501cac138$63b81c20$2b285460$@net> <20100312204946.14876f4ey0uvijmi@horde1.alternet.be> <725fa8581003121236i7787fcc2wce2579d75808c313@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <725fa8581003121242g1e1c55f4v950f3b802070a0ab@mail.gmail.com> I think I've made a mistake: with "seasoning" I actually meant "dressing"... I can't find a direct translation of the word we use for the practice... 2010/3/12 Loris Medici > Roger, where have you photographed those opium poppies? > > BTW, did you know we have a city named after opium here in Turkey? > Afyonkarahisar... (Afyon: Opium Karahisar: Dark Castle) We have many baked > goods which are seasoned with poppy seeds. (Yummy!) > > Regards, > Loris. > > > 2010/3/12 > > Dear Dick, >> Belgium, as a small country, did not have many adepts of alternative >> processes. >> I have been in "alternative" since the late 1960's with a study on a >> process derived from orotone. The perfect stability of the results >> prompted me recently to reuse the process which I now call "orotype". >> Exemples on: http://www.permadocument.be/texte/YRK/RFK/RK/RKE3.html >> In the early 1970's I aexperimented with different image supports and >> processes derived from etching techniques. These experiments have >> later been a good support for my teaching programms in photographic >> conservation-restoration. >> With best regards >> >> Roger Kockaerts >> 7 rue des Balkans >> B-1180 Brussesls, Belgium. >> www.permadocument.be >> >> >> Quoting "Richsul Sullivan" : >> >> I can use some help. I am preparing a lecture on the history of alt >>> process >>> since WWII. >>> >>> I would like to know who was doing handmade and historical process >>> photography after WWII up to 1980. I am particularly interested in folks >>> working in the 1970's in what I call the early renaissance period of alt >>> photography. Links to their work is helpful as well as any information as >>> to >>> who was actually doing the printing, say in the case of Irving Penn, who >>> I >>> believed did not print most of his own work. Hopefully the folks would >>> have >>> had some exhibitions of their works. >>> >>> As an example, Steve Szabo made a mark in the 70's doing platinum prints >>> and >>> Laura Gilpin continued making platinum prints post WWII until her death. >>> Karl Struss had work printed by Herb Quick and I believe they were made >>> in >>> the 1970's. >>> >>> I am not interested in silver gelatin even though some now consider it to >>> be >>> alternative. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> --Dick Sullivan >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >>> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------- >> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > > From pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca Fri Mar 12 20:57:50 2010 From: pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca (Peter Friderichsen) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 15:57:50 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative Exposure Unit (no pun intended) In-Reply-To: <20100312073904.12017.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> References: <20100312073904.12017.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> Message-ID: Hi Alberto, You bring up a good point however the gels I cut were from a "Lee Filter"http://www.leefilters.com lighting gel swatch. Each swatch gel has an attached chart of the transmission spectrum. It shows a transmission graph going from 300 nm up to 800 nm. I made sure that I chose the gels with a high degree of purity in their respective colour, and also that they weren't transparent to UVA. As a further layer of protection, UVB and UVC are not a concern since the projector lamp won't emit at these shorter wavelengths and further, there some thick glass lenses that the light has to pass through and these will not let anything shorter than UVA to pass. Peter Friedrichsen At 02:39 AM 03/12/2010, you wrote: >>I did an experiment that confirmed this. I cut up some blue, >>green, yellow, and red lighting gels into squares and mounted them >>on a transparent sheet... > >I don't know if this is a good experiment. Months ago, speaking >about the best ink for blocking UV for negatives, at the end there >was a general agreement that the visible color has no correlation >with the opacity in the UV range. >Alberto >_______________________________________________ >Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From awschmitt at verizon.net Sat Mar 13 15:58:15 2010 From: awschmitt at verizon.net (Andy Schmitt) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 10:58:15 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] UV Processing units In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all While perusing "Instructables" I ran across a few references to people making Printed Circuit boards with an exposure unit made of UV LED's. This peaked my curiosity & I went & purchased 400 UV LED's, resistors, etc & am slowly soldering together an exposure unit...If I ever get through it I will post back. In case someone wants to steal my thunder & do it themselves [ 8o)) ] Go to www.instructables.com & look up: How to make a printed circuit board (PCB) using the UV light LED method. by JoeyJunior on July 5, 2009 (If you do, you need to tell us how it all comes out) If nothing else, this should be a da** site more portable than a flourcesent unit. Have a great weekend all regards Andy Schmitt Photographer, Computerist, Slayer of Dragons All opinions expressed are mine...Unless otherwise stated or REALLY stupid Head of Photography, Peters Valley Craft Center 2010 schedule available on line at: http://www.petersvalley.org/brochure/photography.pdf From awschmitt at verizon.net Sat Mar 13 16:10:58 2010 From: awschmitt at verizon.net (Andy Schmitt) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 11:10:58 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Alternative inkjet.....ok, that sounds wierd Message-ID: Mark Not just for photography anymore There are companies who modify them to spray frosting on to transfer sheets for kids birthday cakes. I've also run across a chief who formulated food safe inks to taste like various forms of sushi...he literally prints out your order....I'd love to actually see/taste this in action. Keep making your beautiful prints the way you do... regards Andy Schmitt Photographer, Computerist, Slayer of Dragons All opinions expressed are mine...Unless otherwise stated or REALLY stupid Head of Photography, Peters Valley Craft Center 2010 schedule available on line at: http://www.petersvalley.org/brochure/photography.pdf ============================================================================ =============================== Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:02:40 -0500 From: ender100 To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotype Message-ID: <7888BFD4.449A.4B6D.BF6B.814F1E6593F8 at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" While I think there is value in imagination and thinking of new ways to use technologies, I agree with Paul and Keith. ?Many people I know, including myself, went to alternative process printing after they got bored with inkjet printing and longed for doing hand-made prints. ?I don't need to repeat the value of creating something by hand. ?As Richard Sullivan pointed out, this is not something new. ?In fact there are some really exciting alternative uses for inkjet printing in the sciences, where they are used in say microbiology to lay down very precise grids of organic materials and even living tissue for experimental purposes?or used to coat substrates as in fuel cell technology. One caution about this would be a real concern that is growing in the conventional inkjet world, and that is the dispersion of substances into the air by inkjet printers. ?Some printing houses are even installing exhaust hoods on their printers. ?I certainly wouldn't want heavy metals floating around in the air in my home. I'll keep doing my hand made prints. -- Best Wishes, Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negatives PDNPrint Forum @ Yahoo Groups Mark Nelson Photography From viapiano at pacbell.net Sat Mar 13 17:20:50 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 09:20:50 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative inkjet.....ok, that sounds wierd References: Message-ID: <000801cac2d1$87ae2210$c600a8c0@dell4600> Have you seen the inkjet-like devices that draw a picture on your cappucino foam? There's a place in town where I have had a bird AND a Helllo Kitty on my coffee ;-) p ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Schmitt" To: Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 8:10 AM Subject: [alt-photo] Alternative inkjet.....ok, that sounds wierd > Mark > Not just for photography anymore > There are companies who modify them to spray frosting on to transfer > sheets > for kids birthday cakes. > I've also run across a chief who formulated food safe inks to taste like > various forms of sushi...he literally prints out your order....I'd love to > actually see/taste this in action. > Keep making your beautiful prints the way you do... > regards > > Andy Schmitt > Photographer, Computerist, Slayer of Dragons > All opinions expressed are mine...Unless otherwise stated or REALLY > stupid > Head of Photography, Peters Valley Craft Center > 2010 schedule available on line at: > http://www.petersvalley.org/brochure/photography.pdf > > > > ============================================================================ > =============================== > Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:02:40 -0500 > From: ender100 > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" > > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotype > Message-ID: <7888BFD4.449A.4B6D.BF6B.814F1E6593F8 at aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" > > While I think there is value in imagination and thinking of new ways to > use > technologies, I agree with Paul and Keith. ?Many people I know, including > myself, went to alternative process printing after they got bored with > inkjet printing and longed for doing hand-made prints. ?I don't need to > repeat the value of creating something by hand. ?As Richard Sullivan > pointed > out, this is not something new. ?In fact there are some really exciting > alternative uses for inkjet printing in the sciences, where they are used > in > say microbiology to lay down very precise grids of organic materials and > even living tissue for experimental purposes?or used to coat substrates as > in fuel cell technology. > > One caution about this would be a real concern that is growing in the > conventional inkjet world, and that is the dispersion of substances into > the > air by inkjet printers. ?Some printing houses are even installing exhaust > hoods on their printers. ?I certainly wouldn't want heavy metals floating > around in the air in my home. > > I'll keep doing my hand made prints. > -- > Best Wishes, > > Mark Nelson > Precision Digital Negatives > PDNPrint Forum @ Yahoo Groups > > Mark Nelson Photography > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Sat Mar 13 19:17:34 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:17:34 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: UV Processing units In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <725fa8581003131117i56454f86if6a5ef68af3cd5cb@mail.gmail.com> Good luck Andy. Which UV leds did you purchase? The UV leds mentioned in the article are defined as being 395nm, albeit being UV by definition (<400nm), aren't much close to what we get from conventional lightsources. (Something like 360nm.) You unit could work for dichromate processes but you may experience difficulties (slow printing speed) with iron processes... ??? Hope it goes well for you. 2010/3/13 Andy Schmitt : > > Hi all > While perusing "Instructables" I ran across a few references to people > making Printed Circuit boards with an exposure unit made of UV LED's. This > peaked my curiosity & I went & purchased 400 UV LED's, resistors, etc & am > slowly soldering together an exposure unit...If I ever get through it I will > post back. > In case someone wants to steal my thunder & do it themselves [ 8o)) ] > Go to www.instructables.com & look up: > How to make a printed circuit board (PCB) using the UV light LED method. > by JoeyJunior on July 5, 2009 > (If you do, you need to tell us how it all comes out) > ... From alt.list at albertonovo.it Sat Mar 13 20:21:02 2010 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:21:02 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative Exposure Unit (no pun intended) In-Reply-To: References: <20100312073904.12017.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> Message-ID: <20100313202102.16046.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> Peter, > ... the gels I cut were from a "Lee > Filter"lighting gel swatch. Each swatch gel has > an attached chart of the transmission spectrum. It shows a transmission > graph going from 300 nm up to 800 nm. I made sure that I chose the gels > with a high degree of purity in their respective colour, and also that > they weren't transparent to UVA. Have you a detailed figure of their UVA absorption? In the Lee Filters site I am not abe to find any technical documentation. Most of the UV wavelength involving dichromate and ferric salts sensitivity is in the 350-400 mn range. As for the Epson R2400 inks, I have published an analisys of their absorption in the UVA and visible absorption. See http://www.albertonovo.it/scan/epson_inks.html Alberto Alberto From michel at debar.org Sat Mar 13 21:40:27 2010 From: michel at debar.org (Michel Debar) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 22:40:27 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative Exposure Unit (no pun intended) In-Reply-To: <20100313202102.16046.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> References: <20100312073904.12017.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> <20100313202102.16046.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> Message-ID: <25a4fcdd1003131340q393b7b95o9b90df60beba1df1@mail.gmail.com> Your results must be interesting, but I have real difficulties interpreting the graph - due to my colour blindness ... Could you write-up a textual summary of your results ? Thanks 2010/3/13 Alberto Novo > Peter, > >> ... the gels I cut were from a "Lee Filter"lighting gel swatch. Each >> swatch gel has an attached chart of the transmission spectrum. It shows a >> transmission graph going from 300 nm up to 800 nm. I made sure that I chose >> the gels with a high degree of purity in their respective colour, and also >> that they weren't transparent to UVA. >> > > Have you a detailed figure of their UVA absorption? In the Lee Filters site > I am not abe to find any technical documentation. > Most of the UV wavelength involving dichromate and ferric salts sensitivity > is in the 350-400 mn range. > As for the Epson R2400 inks, I have published an analisys of their > absorption in the UVA and visible absorption. > See http://www.albertonovo.it/scan/epson_inks.html > Alberto T > Alberto > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > -- Michel Debar 11, chemin du Fort Saint-H?ribert 5100 W?pion Belgique T?l. +32 (081) 4612 04 - +32 (0485) 72 83 92 From cryberg at comcast.net Sat Mar 13 22:34:39 2010 From: cryberg at comcast.net (Charles Ryberg) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 14:34:39 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: UV Processing units In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3170E813FEE9453B8ADB1C310F9DB550@hpPC> >>I went & purchased 400 UV LED's, resistors, etc & a>m >>slowly soldering together an exposure unit...If I ever get through it I >>will >>post back. Wow--400 LED's. If you do 10 a day that?s 40 days. I hope you work faster than I do. How far apart are you putting them? Good luck and I'm sure I'm not the only one awaiting your report. Charles Portland OR From samwang864 at gmail.com Sun Mar 14 00:57:39 2010 From: samwang864 at gmail.com (sam wang) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 19:57:39 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's In-Reply-To: <02f501cac138$63b81c20$2b285460$@net> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk><1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk><004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com><854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net><8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl><006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com><007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com><20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com><20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <000501cac0a2$d92e0ff0$c600a8c0@dell4600> <4B9847E7.9090600@columbia.edu> <02f501cac138$63b81c20$2b285460$@net> Message-ID: Richard, Phil Davis printed platinum for Karl Struss. At least he did with one portfolio. I saw some of the prints in Phil's studio in 1982. There were a whole bunch of people doing alt processes in the early 70's: one of the SPE conferences at Asiloma had that as the theme, and William Crawford talked about his book Keepers of Light. Todd Walker did all sorts of processes. So did Charles Swedlund. Sam Wang On Mar 11, 2010, at 11:32 AM, Richsul Sullivan wrote: > I can use some help. I am preparing a lecture on the history of alt > process > since WWII. > > I would like to know who was doing handmade and historical process > photography after WWII up to 1980. I am particularly interested in > folks > working in the 1970's in what I call the early renaissance period of > alt > photography. Links to their work is helpful as well as any > information as to > who was actually doing the printing, say in the case of Irving Penn, > who I > believed did not print most of his own work. Hopefully the folks > would have > had some exhibitions of their works. > > As an example, Steve Szabo made a mark in the 70's doing platinum > prints and > Laura Gilpin continued making platinum prints post WWII until her > death. > Karl Struss had work printed by Herb Quick and I believe they were > made in > the 1970's. > > I am not interested in silver gelatin even though some now consider > it to be > alternative. > > Thanks! > > --Dick Sullivan > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From richsul at earthlink.net Sun Mar 14 01:29:42 2010 From: richsul at earthlink.net (richsul at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:29:42 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's Message-ID: <18285897.1268530182280.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Thanks Sam. I knew Phil fairly well. You refreshed my memory on his printing Struss. Herb Quick printed the later ones. These were all done through Stephen White's Gallery as was my association with Struss. I helped print some POP's for Karl -- or at least tried to -- he was livid about the quality. This was Eastman's Studio Proof paper and not real POP (which wasn't made anymore) and he didn't like them at all, "It's proof paper!!! &*&(*&(*&" He told me the secret to his long life was by never drinking anything hot or cold. At least that is what he claimed, but I suspected it was a put on at first but later noticed that he let hot drinks sit. He was still driving when he was 94 or 95. He was born in '86 and lived to be 95 and he and his wife died within weeks of each other. He died first. He was a cinematographer and shot the original Frankenstein. He invented the Struss Pictorial Cinema lens that was used in countless movies in female closeups. Bergman was shot with it in Casablanca he claimed. Enough. --Dick -----Original Message----- >From: sam wang >Sent: Mar 13, 2010 5:57 PM >To: richsul at earthlink.net, The alternative photographic processes mailing list >Subject: Re: [alt-photo] Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's > >Richard, > >Phil Davis printed platinum for Karl Struss. At least he did with one >portfolio. I saw some of the prints in Phil's studio in 1982. > >There were a whole bunch of people doing alt processes in the early >70's: one of the SPE conferences at Asiloma had that as the theme, and >William Crawford talked about his book Keepers of Light. Todd Walker >did all sorts of processes. So did Charles Swedlund. > >Sam Wang > > >On Mar 11, 2010, at 11:32 AM, Richsul Sullivan wrote: > >> I can use some help. I am preparing a lecture on the history of alt >> process >> since WWII. >> >> I would like to know who was doing handmade and historical process >> photography after WWII up to 1980. I am particularly interested in >> folks >> working in the 1970's in what I call the early renaissance period of >> alt >> photography. Links to their work is helpful as well as any >> information as to >> who was actually doing the printing, say in the case of Irving Penn, >> who I >> believed did not print most of his own work. Hopefully the folks >> would have >> had some exhibitions of their works. >> >> As an example, Steve Szabo made a mark in the 70's doing platinum >> prints and >> Laura Gilpin continued making platinum prints post WWII until her >> death. >> Karl Struss had work printed by Herb Quick and I believe they were >> made in >> the 1970's. >> >> I am not interested in silver gelatin even though some now consider >> it to be >> alternative. >> >> Thanks! >> >> --Dick Sullivan >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From ender100 at aol.com Sun Mar 14 01:48:10 2010 From: ender100 at aol.com (Mark Nelson) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 20:48:10 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative inkjet.....ok, that sounds wierd In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01975BB1-B360-4576-ABA4-76F1FC1D45CA@aol.com> Thanks Andy! Mark Nelson www.PrecisionDigitalNegatives.com PDNPRint Forum @ Yahoo Groups www.MarkINelsonPhoto.com sent from my iPhonetypeDeviceThingy On Mar 13, 2010, at 11:10 AM, "Andy Schmitt" wrote: > Mark > Not just for photography anymore > There are companies who modify them to spray frosting on to transfer > sheets > for kids birthday cakes. > I've also run across a chief who formulated food safe inks to taste > like > various forms of sushi...he literally prints out your order....I'd > love to > actually see/taste this in action. > Keep making your beautiful prints the way you do... > regards > > Andy Schmitt > Photographer, Computerist, Slayer of Dragons > All opinions expressed are mine...Unless otherwise stated or > REALLY > stupid > Head of Photography, Peters Valley Craft Center > 2010 schedule available on line at: > http://www.petersvalley.org/brochure/photography.pdf > > > > === > === > ====================================================================== > =============================== > Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:02:40 -0500 > From: ender100 > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" > > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotype > Message-ID: <7888BFD4.449A.4B6D.BF6B.814F1E6593F8 at aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" > > While I think there is value in imagination and thinking of new ways > to use > technologies, I agree with Paul and Keith. ?Many people I know, > including > myself, went to alternative process printing after they got bored with > inkjet printing and longed for doing hand-made prints. ?I don't need > to > repeat the value of creating something by hand. ?As Richard Sullivan > pointed > out, this is not something new. ?In fact there are some really > exciting > alternative uses for inkjet printing in the sciences, where they are > used in > say microbiology to lay down very precise grids of organic materials > and > even living tissue for experimental purposes?or used to coat > substrates as > in fuel cell technology. > > One caution about this would be a real concern that is growing in the > conventional inkjet world, and that is the dispersion of substances > into the > air by inkjet printers. ?Some printing houses are even installing > exhaust > hoods on their printers. ?I certainly wouldn't want heavy metals > floating > around in the air in my home. > > I'll keep doing my hand made prints. > -- > Best Wishes, > > Mark Nelson > Precision Digital Negatives > PDNPrint Forum @ Yahoo Groups > > Mark Nelson Photography > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From ender100 at aol.com Sun Mar 14 01:49:25 2010 From: ender100 at aol.com (Mark Nelson) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 20:49:25 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: UV Processing units In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5605BDA9-E7C8-42F0-A6AB-C605EBC6F853@aol.com> Andy, Please let us know how they work out? Very curious! Mark Nelson www.PrecisionDigitalNegatives.com PDNPRint Forum @ Yahoo Groups www.MarkINelsonPhoto.com sent from my iPhonetypeDeviceThingy On Mar 13, 2010, at 10:58 AM, "Andy Schmitt" wrote: > > Hi all > While perusing "Instructables" I ran across a few references to people > making Printed Circuit boards with an exposure unit made of UV > LED's. This > peaked my curiosity & I went & purchased 400 UV LED's, resistors, > etc & am > slowly soldering together an exposure unit...If I ever get through > it I will > post back. > In case someone wants to steal my thunder & do it themselves [ 8o)) ] > Go to www.instructables.com & look up: > How to make a printed circuit board (PCB) using the UV light LED > method. > by JoeyJunior on July 5, 2009 > (If you do, you need to tell us how it all comes out) > > If nothing else, this should be a da** site more portable than a > flourcesent > unit. > Have a great weekend all > regards > > Andy Schmitt > Photographer, Computerist, Slayer of Dragons > All opinions expressed are mine...Unless otherwise stated or > REALLY > stupid > > Head of Photography, Peters Valley Craft Center > 2010 schedule available on line at: > http://www.petersvalley.org/brochure/photography.pdf > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From hellena at hncleary.myzen.co.uk Sun Mar 14 12:04:01 2010 From: hellena at hncleary.myzen.co.uk (Hellena Cleary) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 12:04:01 -0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: UV Processing units In-Reply-To: <5605BDA9-E7C8-42F0-A6AB-C605EBC6F853@aol.com> References: <5605BDA9-E7C8-42F0-A6AB-C605EBC6F853@aol.com> Message-ID: I use a UV light source originally designed for the electronic industry for the production of copper plate PCB's. I got mine from an electronics firm in Cambridge UK. It contains both light source and a very good vacuum. As I am not very DIY, it suits me very well. It eliminates the problem of too many variables. The only variable I have is the exposure. I do up to A3 size which I realize is small for some people but it suits me fine. This solution may suit some people. Hellena ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Nelson" To: ; "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Sunday, March 14, 2010 1:49 AM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: UV Processing units > Andy, > > Please let us know how they work out? > > Very curious! > > Mark Nelson > www.PrecisionDigitalNegatives.com > PDNPRint Forum @ Yahoo Groups > www.MarkINelsonPhoto.com > > sent from my iPhonetypeDeviceThingy > > On Mar 13, 2010, at 10:58 AM, "Andy Schmitt" > wrote: > >> >> Hi all >> While perusing "Instructables" I ran across a few references to people >> making Printed Circuit boards with an exposure unit made of UV LED's. >> This >> peaked my curiosity & I went & purchased 400 UV LED's, resistors, etc & >> am >> slowly soldering together an exposure unit...If I ever get through it I >> will >> post back. >> In case someone wants to steal my thunder & do it themselves [ 8o)) ] >> Go to www.instructables.com & look up: >> How to make a printed circuit board (PCB) using the UV light LED method. >> by JoeyJunior on July 5, 2009 >> (If you do, you need to tell us how it all comes out) >> >> If nothing else, this should be a da** site more portable than a >> flourcesent >> unit. >> Have a great weekend all >> regards >> >> Andy Schmitt >> Photographer, Computerist, Slayer of Dragons >> All opinions expressed are mine...Unless otherwise stated or REALLY >> stupid >> >> Head of Photography, Peters Valley Craft Center >> 2010 schedule available on line at: >> http://www.petersvalley.org/brochure/photography.pdf >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From noisy at rogers.com Sun Mar 14 14:41:41 2010 From: noisy at rogers.com (Ian Hooper) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 09:41:41 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: UV Processing units In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <224604.60362.qm@smtp108.rog.mail.re2.yahoo.com> A few years ago, I looked at the options of cooking PCB's with UV Leds, the only leds I could source seemed to be high cost / low output, or from 'questionable' sources. That was some time ago, so imagine there are new products available on the market. If I may ask, where did you get 400 high output Leds without costing a fortune? I'd be interested in cobbling together a UV unit myself. cheers, Ian -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Andy Schmitt Sent: March 13, 2010 10:58 AM To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org Subject: [alt-photo] UV Processing units Hi all While perusing "Instructables" I ran across a few references to people making Printed Circuit boards with an exposure unit made of UV LED's. This peaked my curiosity & I went & purchased 400 UV LED's, resistors, etc & am slowly soldering together an exposure unit...If I ever get through it I will post back. From eyeear at shaw.ca Sun Mar 14 17:28:36 2010 From: eyeear at shaw.ca (Rajul) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 10:28:36 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Compelling Abstracts Message-ID: <0F773F91-17B0-46FD-8D71-02CBB396C19B@shaw.ca> Hello Everyone! Google Nicholas Baier, a photographer from Montreal, P.Q., whose work is currently on view at the CMCP (Canadian Museum of Contemporary Photography). Make sure you have time enough to take in what he has done. I was thrilled! Rajul From pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca Mon Mar 15 01:12:37 2010 From: pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca (Peter Friderichsen) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 21:12:37 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative Exposure Unit (no pun intended) In-Reply-To: <20100313202102.16046.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> References: <20100312073904.12017.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> <20100313202102.16046.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> Message-ID: Alberto, I have posted that data as a snapshot of the graphs at http://www.inventionsthatwork.com/images/LeeSwatchFilters.jpg. I overlaid the green filter just so you can see what it looks like. The Lee filter website no longer shows the transmission data below 400nm but the swatch I have which is 10 years old (at least) does, going down to 300 nm. Peter Friedrichsen At 04:21 PM 03/13/2010, you wrote: >Peter, >>... the gels I cut were from a "Lee Filter"lighting gel swatch. >>Each swatch gel has an attached chart of the transmission spectrum. >>It shows a transmission graph going from 300 nm up to 800 nm. I >>made sure that I chose the gels with a high degree of purity in >>their respective colour, and also that they weren't transparent to UVA. > >Have you a detailed figure of their UVA absorption? In the Lee >Filters site I am not abe to find any technical documentation. >Most of the UV wavelength involving dichromate and ferric salts >sensitivity is in the 350-400 mn range. >As for the Epson R2400 inks, I have published an analisys of their >absorption in the UVA and visible absorption. >See http://www.albertonovo.it/scan/epson_inks.html >Alberto >Alberto >_______________________________________________ >Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca Mon Mar 15 02:58:43 2010 From: pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca (Peter Friderichsen) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 22:58:43 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: UV Processing units In-Reply-To: <725fa8581003131117i56454f86if6a5ef68af3cd5cb@mail.gmail.co m> References: <725fa8581003131117i56454f86if6a5ef68af3cd5cb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I did some basic tests exposing light through coloured filters. (I mentioned this in an earlier post) I did find that the cyanotype using ferric ammonium citrate/potassium ferricyanide was slightly sensitive under the blue light. I did however read that the iron oxalate salts are fairly sensitive up to 500 nm so perhaps some of the iron salts will work while others may not work so well. Mike Ware mentions this sensitivity of the oxalate salts in his book on Cyanotypes. I am looking forward to see what the results on this will be. At 03:17 PM 03/13/2010, you wrote: >Good luck Andy. > >Which UV leds did you purchase? The UV leds mentioned in the article >are defined as being 395nm, albeit being UV by definition (<400nm), >aren't much close to what we get from conventional lightsources. >(Something like 360nm.) You unit could work for dichromate processes >but you may experience difficulties (slow printing speed) with iron >processes... ??? Hope it goes well for you. > >2010/3/13 Andy Schmitt : > > > > Hi all > > While perusing "Instructables" I ran across a few references to people > > making Printed Circuit boards with an exposure unit made of UV LED's. This > > peaked my curiosity & I went & purchased 400 UV LED's, resistors, etc & am > > slowly soldering together an exposure unit...If I ever get > through it I will > > post back. > > In case someone wants to steal my thunder & do it themselves [ 8o)) ] > > Go to www.instructables.com & look up: > > How to make a printed circuit board (PCB) using the UV light LED method. > > by JoeyJunior on July 5, 2009 > > (If you do, you need to tell us how it all comes out) > > ... >_______________________________________________ >Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From tom at sobota.net Mon Mar 15 10:13:47 2010 From: tom at sobota.net (Tomas Sobota) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 11:13:47 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's In-Reply-To: <18285897.1268530182280.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <18285897.1268530182280.JavaMail.root@mswamui-andean.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Dick, Have you checked "Alternative Photographic Processes" by Kent Wade? It was printed around 1978 and has a list of references to articles published in photo journals in the 70's. The list is not terribly large but anyway. Tom Sobota Madrid, Spain On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 2:29 AM, wrote: > Thanks Sam. > > I knew Phil fairly well. You refreshed my memory on his printing Struss. > Herb Quick printed the later ones. These were all done through Stephen > White's Gallery as was my association with Struss. I helped print some POP's > for Karl -- or at least tried to -- he was livid about the quality. This was > Eastman's Studio Proof paper and not real POP (which wasn't made anymore) > and he didn't like them at all, "It's proof paper!!! &*&(*&(*&" He told me > the secret to his long life was by never drinking anything hot or cold. At > least that is what he claimed, but I suspected it was a put on at first but > later noticed that he let hot drinks sit. He was still driving when he was > 94 or 95. He was born in '86 and lived to be 95 and he and his wife died > within weeks of each other. He died first. > > He was a cinematographer and shot the original Frankenstein. He invented > the Struss Pictorial Cinema lens that was used in countless movies in female > closeups. Bergman was shot with it in Casablanca he claimed. > > Enough. > > --Dick > > > -----Original Message----- > >From: sam wang > >Sent: Mar 13, 2010 5:57 PM > >To: richsul at earthlink.net, The alternative photographic processes mailing > list > >Subject: Re: [alt-photo] Paractitioners from WWII thru the 1970's > > > >Richard, > > > >Phil Davis printed platinum for Karl Struss. At least he did with one > >portfolio. I saw some of the prints in Phil's studio in 1982. > > > >There were a whole bunch of people doing alt processes in the early > >70's: one of the SPE conferences at Asiloma had that as the theme, and > >William Crawford talked about his book Keepers of Light. Todd Walker > >did all sorts of processes. So did Charles Swedlund. > > > >Sam Wang > > > > > >On Mar 11, 2010, at 11:32 AM, Richsul Sullivan wrote: > > > >> I can use some help. I am preparing a lecture on the history of alt > >> process > >> since WWII. > >> > >> I would like to know who was doing handmade and historical process > >> photography after WWII up to 1980. I am particularly interested in > >> folks > >> working in the 1970's in what I call the early renaissance period of > >> alt > >> photography. Links to their work is helpful as well as any > >> information as to > >> who was actually doing the printing, say in the case of Irving Penn, > >> who I > >> believed did not print most of his own work. Hopefully the folks > >> would have > >> had some exhibitions of their works. > >> > >> As an example, Steve Szabo made a mark in the 70's doing platinum > >> prints and > >> Laura Gilpin continued making platinum prints post WWII until her > >> death. > >> Karl Struss had work printed by Herb Quick and I believe they were > >> made in > >> the 1970's. > >> > >> I am not interested in silver gelatin even though some now consider > >> it to be > >> alternative. > >> > >> Thanks! > >> > >> --Dick Sullivan > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From ejnphoto at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 15 12:57:14 2010 From: ejnphoto at sbcglobal.net (EJ Photo) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 07:57:14 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment In-Reply-To: References: <302A6F01-C862-488C-9558-6EE0990EEE59@sharperstill.com><68FC8DA8-206D-425D-B267-886C54FBB87C@bellsouth.net><4E6D86D6-AA9C-49F8-98FD-2206748C1B44@sharperstill.com><632DB2EEF7CE47BBB887E7FA79A61DA7@Eric64> Message-ID: <723501C6738C438592CA1CD96D6D8888@Eric64> Jon, Been out of town, so sorry for delayed response. Is there any sepia toning kits around? that would have the potassium ferricyanide that you need to do the test. In my experience, the hair dryer on the front or coated side of the paper for about 1 to 2 minutes on medium to low heat at about right. Then flip it and get a little closer and do that for about 4 to 6 minutes. this is based on a 1000 watt hair dryer and working about 1 foot away from the surface. Thinner paper require a lighter touch, so you may not see the heat fog on COT 320 that you'd see on the Weston using the same drying technique. Sorry to hear that you bought premixed solutions as tat does take away from one ability to test out slightly different batches of PD to adjust your color. The ammonium chloride should not be that hard to come by, but I don't know your area at all. For thin paper you might try a one tray method of processing if you are not doing so already. Pour your chemistry into the tray and that will keep you from having to pick it up several time. Also a fan out fingers underneath the paper allows for easy removal without damage. Make sure you are using a flat bottom tray though. Having ferric work on one paper and not another is not the best way to test a solution. I'd still try and add a few pinches of oxalic acid to the FO. Eric Neilsen Eric Neilsen Photography 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 Dallas, TX 75226 www.ericneilsenphotography.com skype me with ejprinter www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1 Let's Talk Photography -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Jon Reid Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 5:07 AM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment Eric, "The use of a hair dry or other warm air stream, should be used with caution around a pt/pd print as you know" Well no, I don't know. As I said I was taught to give the coated sheet a good going over, both sides, with warm air from a hair dryer then rest to restore humidity. "Also the type of ferric, FO vs AFO will also be a factor" Mine is straight FO, from B&S, so far as I know. I kind of feel that I have tested the FO. I gave it to a friend who produced a wonderful pure palladium print on Cranes natural white wove, the same paper he gave a few sheets of to me and I had success with. "palladium solution with ammonium chloride instead of sodium." My palladium solution is the pre-mixed variety from B&S. Sourcing these sorts of chemicals is very difficult in Australia. One of our major photographic suppliers has just stopped carrying all powder chemistry, so even getting cheap citric acid is a chore. Hence my reluctance to get stuff like potassium ferrocynide for a test. I guess I was hoping a whole bunch of people would reply saying 'yeah, that paper is kinda crap' and I'd feel OK about trying another. I quite like Platine but it is too heavy and white for this series of photographs. To Diana: I have always used a hair dryer on these prints, mostly on cool setting until the other night when I switched to warm to really dry the bejeesus out of it. I guess my dilemma is to continue trying to nail the problem, if it is indeed nailable or to switch to something else. I only get the chance to print every fortnight or so, though I'm going to try and make it weekly to make up for lost time. I'm not sure how much longer I want to get this paper working right only to find I don't have enough left for an edition! The Cranes natural white wove that I tested on was quite nice though thinner than the Diploma Parchment and therefore very weak when wet. I doubt I could get 11x14 easily in Australia. It's late here, I'm going to bed. Thanks to all list members for your valuable suggestions. Jon On 09/03/2010, at 4:17 PM, EJ Photo wrote: > Jon, The use of a hair dry or other warm air stream, should be used > with > caution around a pt/pd print as you know. The slight front or face > drying of > the print at a low level, and then a longer back side drying can > work with > great effectiveness. The resting time, will depend greatly on type > of metals > used and RH of environment. PD needs moisture much more so than PT > to both > print with speed and Dmax. So those experiencing lower Dmax may be > printing > with those conditions. Also the type of ferric, FO vs AFO will also > be a > factor. > > Test your ferric with the potassium ferrocynide test, a 1/4 > teaspoon in 25 > to 50ml of distilled water. Put a drop or two into the solution. If > it turns > blue your screwed. If it stays brown, your fine and the longer the > better > but it too will change. > > Table salt bath??? well that's a new one on me. If your looking for > colder > toned prints try making your palladium solution with ammonium chloride > instead of sodium. > > Eric Neilsen > Eric Neilsen Photography > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 > Dallas, TX 75226 > > www.ericneilsenphotography.com > skype me with ejprinter > www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1 > Let's Talk Photography > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On > Behalf Of > Jon Reid > Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 4:53 PM > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment > > Hi all, > Thanks fro all your responses. > I didn't put all details into the post of every solution I had tried > as it was already getting unwieldy. > > I lent my sensitizer #1 solution to a friend just two weeks ago who > made a beautiful pure palladium print from it. It was made up fairly > recently from powdered stock that is <2 years old and always > refrigerated. I think it's alright. > > I'm using the black plastic from bags that silver-gelatin photo > papers come packaged in. It is what I normally use (though the last > few years I have been printing from digital inter-negatives that have > opaque borders and don't require masking.) The plastic is between > paper and negative, so piping shouldn't be the cause. > > With regards to drying the coated paper. I was taught, when I first > learnt platinum, to use warm/hot air from a hair dryer then rest the > paper to allow it to regain some humidity before exposure. I then > subsequently read that some people believe it reduces Dmax and > contrast so I started using cool air and or air drying before laying > the print on a rack over a bath of saturated salt solution (household > table salt). To be honest, that's when I thought the fogging was > getting worse. Perhaps it was too humid? > > I decided to try and simplify my process back to when it used to work > for me (when I used Platine), so this time I blasted with warm air, > then rested under safelights before exposure. My exposure unit is > black light tubes - fairly basic and standard. > > I tried a fresh batch of developer. I was favouring the 'cold bath' > version of KOx as per the Sullivan and Weese book as I don't want too > warm a tone however the interesting thing from the tests the other > night is that there was little difference in tone between that > version and straight KOx used at 21DegC. > > I gather no one else has had this problem as I have, so maybe it > isn't the paper. I'm frustrated to the nth, with 30 or so negs to > print for my debut solo show... > > Jon > > > On 09/03/2010, at 6:54 AM, EJ Photo wrote: > >> I haven't seen heat fog with that paper. It could very well be an >> issue with >> Ferric but replacing is NOT always needed. It could very well be that >> repairing it is in order. It could be a pH issue or all sorts of >> stuff. Try >> adding some more Oxalic acid to your ferric. Hair dryers should >> only be used >> lightly and primarily on the backside with low heat. >> >> >> I'd suspect the light bleed along the negative material; light >> piping. Try >> place the mask under it just for a test and see if it stops it. If >> you can't >> get it to stop, clear, or prevent the distraction of the fog, just >> coat the >> whole piece of paper. ; ) >> >> have you tried a fresh batch of developer? Is it possible that you >> were >> playing around with it and had some lithium in the mix? or gold >> that is >> fogging it? >> >> Eric >> >> Eric Neilsen >> Eric Neilsen Photography >> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 >> Dallas, TX 75226 >> >> www.ericneilsenphotography.com >> skype me with ejprinter >> www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1 >> Let's Talk Photography >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org >> [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On >> Behalf Of >> Diana Bloomfield >> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 7:27 AM >> To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment >> >> Jon, >> >> Have you printed any of these without using a hair dryer beforehand? >> I'm thinking your problem might be either exhausted ferric oxalate, >> and/or use of the hair dryer-- as well as allowing it to sit for an >> additional 15 minutes after using the hair dryer(?). I taught a >> workshop once where there was some evidence of fogging, but only for >> those people using hair dryers-- even when they set it on a "cool" >> setting. When we eliminated the use of hair dryers, the problem >> disappeared. Just a suggestion, but it's worth a try to switch to >> fresh ferric oxalate and skip the hair dryer. I also think certain >> papers are really a disaster for pt/pd. I used to use, many years, >> ago Cranes Platinotype (sp?), and I couldn't completely clear a print >> on that paper to save my life-- no matter what I used.. I never >> liked >> the Weston paper, either, but I know I'm in the minority there. I >> just don't like the weight of it. >> >> Diana >> >> >> On Mar 8, 2010, at 5:25 AM, Jon Reid wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> I have been battling a problem for about 6 months now. At first I >>> thought it was a clearing problem then after trying various things >>> realised that it wasn't clearing but rather some density that was >>> appearing in the coated area of the paper that is masked during >>> exposure. The paper that I have been trying to print on is Weston >>> Diploma Parchment. I bought this paper in early 2008 from Bostick & >>> Sullivan and believe it is stock that was made by Cranes, not the >>> re- >>> invented Diploma Parchment Plat Pal being marketed by John Zowkowski >>> of Butler Dearden. >>> >>> I am wishing to print my 5x7 rollo-pyro negs on these 11x14 sheets >>> for my debut solo exhibition. I do not want to mat the prints so I >>> am trying for very clear coated-but-masked areas. The other night, >>> believing I was dealing with a fogging issue I set up darkroom >>> safelights and coated under those lights. I then used a hair dryer >>> and rested the paper in the room for 10-15min before exposure (11min >>> in my UV box), and developed in KOx (cold bath version-fresh) at >>> 21C. >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From keith.gerling at gmail.com Mon Mar 15 14:19:13 2010 From: keith.gerling at gmail.com (Keith Gerling) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 09:19:13 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Compelling Abstracts In-Reply-To: <0F773F91-17B0-46FD-8D71-02CBB396C19B@shaw.ca> References: <0F773F91-17B0-46FD-8D71-02CBB396C19B@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <98766a901003150719y7e2a5555q2decb117b5683da5@mail.gmail.com> Thanks, Rajul. I enjoyed these. Have you ever seen any in person? Is the textural appearance all "photographic", oe have the inkjet prints been physically altered? On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 12:28 PM, Rajul wrote: > Hello Everyone! > > Google Nicholas Baier, a photographer from Montreal, P.Q., whose work is > currently on view at the CMCP > (Canadian Museum of Contemporary Photography). Make sure you have time > enough to take in what he has done. > I was thrilled! > > Rajul_______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From harrylock at telkomsa.net Mon Mar 15 14:28:06 2010 From: harrylock at telkomsa.net (Harry Lock) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 16:28:06 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Compelling Abstracts References: <0F773F91-17B0-46FD-8D71-02CBB396C19B@shaw.ca> <98766a901003150719y7e2a5555q2decb117b5683da5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A1571CBDF0D46BA902042A2835B5751@Harry> I'd like to know how he sticks the prints onto the materials he uses. Any ideas? Harry ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Gerling To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 4:19 PM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Compelling Abstracts Thanks, Rajul. I enjoyed these. Have you ever seen any in person? Is the textural appearance all "photographic", oe have the inkjet prints been physically altered? On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 12:28 PM, Rajul wrote: > Hello Everyone! > > Google Nicholas Baier, a photographer from Montreal, P.Q., whose work is > currently on view at the CMCP > (Canadian Museum of Contemporary Photography). Make sure you have time > enough to take in what he has done. > I was thrilled! > > Rajul_______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From eyeear at shaw.ca Tue Mar 16 17:39:29 2010 From: eyeear at shaw.ca (Rajul) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:39:29 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Compelling abstracts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A38DC1C-DCB0-4786-8558-3F88646AB7A6@shaw.ca> Keith and Harry: I have not seen the real thing - much too far away from where I am. I could not find any info on whether the texture was a result of alteration of his inkjet prints. The prints are mounted on galvanized steel or Sintra under plexiglas. Rajul On 16-Mar-10, at 5:00 AM, alt-photo-process-list- request at lists.altphotolist.org wrote: > Send Alt-photo-process-list mailing list submissions to > alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo/alt-photo-process-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > alt-photo-process-list-request at lists.altphotolist.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > alt-photo-process-list-owner at lists.altphotolist.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Alt-photo-process-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Weston Diploma Parchment (EJ Photo) > 2. Re: Compelling Abstracts (Keith Gerling) > 3. Re: Compelling Abstracts (Harry Lock) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 07:57:14 -0500 > From: "EJ Photo" > To: "'The alternative photographic processes mailing list'" > > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment > Message-ID: <723501C6738C438592CA1CD96D6D8888 at Eric64> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Jon, Been out of town, so sorry for delayed response. Is there any > sepia > toning kits around? that would have the potassium ferricyanide that > you need > to do the test. In my experience, the hair dryer on the front or > coated side > of the paper for about 1 to 2 minutes on medium to low heat at > about right. > Then flip it and get a little closer and do that for about 4 to 6 > minutes. > this is based on a 1000 watt hair dryer and working about 1 foot > away from > the surface. > > Thinner paper require a lighter touch, so you may not see the heat > fog on > COT 320 that you'd see on the Weston using the same drying technique. > > Sorry to hear that you bought premixed solutions as tat does take > away from > one ability to test out slightly different batches of PD to adjust > your > color. The ammonium chloride should not be that hard to come by, > but I don't > know your area at all. > > For thin paper you might try a one tray method of processing if you > are not > doing so already. Pour your chemistry into the tray and that will > keep you > from having to pick it up several time. Also a fan out fingers > underneath > the paper allows for easy removal without damage. Make sure you are > using a > flat bottom tray though. > > Having ferric work on one paper and not another is not the best way > to test > a solution. I'd still try and add a few pinches of oxalic acid to > the FO. > > > Eric Neilsen > Eric Neilsen Photography > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 > Dallas, TX 75226 > > www.ericneilsenphotography.com > skype me with ejprinter > www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1 > Let's Talk Photography > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On > Behalf Of > Jon Reid > Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 5:07 AM > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment > > Eric, > > "The use of a hair dry or other warm air stream, should be used with > caution around a pt/pd print as you know" > Well no, I don't know. As I said I was taught to give the coated > sheet a good going over, both sides, with warm air from a hair dryer > then rest to restore humidity. > > "Also the type of ferric, FO vs AFO will also be a factor" > Mine is straight FO, from B&S, so far as I know. I kind of feel that > I have tested the FO. I gave it to a friend who produced a wonderful > pure palladium print on Cranes natural white wove, the same paper he > gave a few sheets of to me and I had success with. > > "palladium solution with ammonium chloride instead of sodium." My > palladium solution is the pre-mixed variety from B&S. Sourcing these > sorts of chemicals is very difficult in Australia. One of our major > photographic suppliers has just stopped carrying all powder > chemistry, so even getting cheap citric acid is a chore. Hence my > reluctance to get stuff like potassium ferrocynide for a test. > > I guess I was hoping a whole bunch of people would reply saying > 'yeah, that paper is kinda crap' and I'd feel OK about trying > another. I quite like Platine but it is too heavy and white for this > series of photographs. > > To Diana: I have always used a hair dryer on these prints, mostly on > cool setting until the other night when I switched to warm to really > dry the bejeesus out of it. > > I guess my dilemma is to continue trying to nail the problem, if it > is indeed nailable or to switch to something else. I only get the > chance to print every fortnight or so, though I'm going to try and > make it weekly to make up for lost time. I'm not sure how much longer > I want to get this paper working right only to find I don't have > enough left for an edition! The Cranes natural white wove that I > tested on was quite nice though thinner than the Diploma Parchment > and therefore very weak when wet. I doubt I could get 11x14 easily in > Australia. > > It's late here, I'm going to bed. Thanks to all list members for your > valuable suggestions. > > Jon > > On 09/03/2010, at 4:17 PM, EJ Photo wrote: > >> Jon, The use of a hair dry or other warm air stream, should be used >> with >> caution around a pt/pd print as you know. The slight front or face >> drying of >> the print at a low level, and then a longer back side drying can >> work with >> great effectiveness. The resting time, will depend greatly on type >> of metals >> used and RH of environment. PD needs moisture much more so than PT >> to both >> print with speed and Dmax. So those experiencing lower Dmax may be >> printing >> with those conditions. Also the type of ferric, FO vs AFO will also >> be a >> factor. >> >> Test your ferric with the potassium ferrocynide test, a 1/4 >> teaspoon in 25 >> to 50ml of distilled water. Put a drop or two into the solution. If >> it turns >> blue your screwed. If it stays brown, your fine and the longer the >> better >> but it too will change. >> >> Table salt bath??? well that's a new one on me. If your looking for >> colder >> toned prints try making your palladium solution with ammonium >> chloride >> instead of sodium. >> >> Eric Neilsen >> Eric Neilsen Photography >> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 >> Dallas, TX 75226 >> >> www.ericneilsenphotography.com >> skype me with ejprinter >> www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1 >> Let's Talk Photography >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org >> [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On >> Behalf Of >> Jon Reid >> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 4:53 PM >> To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment >> >> Hi all, >> Thanks fro all your responses. >> I didn't put all details into the post of every solution I had tried >> as it was already getting unwieldy. >> >> I lent my sensitizer #1 solution to a friend just two weeks ago who >> made a beautiful pure palladium print from it. It was made up fairly >> recently from powdered stock that is <2 years old and always >> refrigerated. I think it's alright. >> >> I'm using the black plastic from bags that silver-gelatin photo >> papers come packaged in. It is what I normally use (though the last >> few years I have been printing from digital inter-negatives that have >> opaque borders and don't require masking.) The plastic is between >> paper and negative, so piping shouldn't be the cause. >> >> With regards to drying the coated paper. I was taught, when I first >> learnt platinum, to use warm/hot air from a hair dryer then rest the >> paper to allow it to regain some humidity before exposure. I then >> subsequently read that some people believe it reduces Dmax and >> contrast so I started using cool air and or air drying before laying >> the print on a rack over a bath of saturated salt solution (household >> table salt). To be honest, that's when I thought the fogging was >> getting worse. Perhaps it was too humid? >> >> I decided to try and simplify my process back to when it used to work >> for me (when I used Platine), so this time I blasted with warm air, >> then rested under safelights before exposure. My exposure unit is >> black light tubes - fairly basic and standard. >> >> I tried a fresh batch of developer. I was favouring the 'cold bath' >> version of KOx as per the Sullivan and Weese book as I don't want too >> warm a tone however the interesting thing from the tests the other >> night is that there was little difference in tone between that >> version and straight KOx used at 21DegC. >> >> I gather no one else has had this problem as I have, so maybe it >> isn't the paper. I'm frustrated to the nth, with 30 or so negs to >> print for my debut solo show... >> >> Jon >> >> >> On 09/03/2010, at 6:54 AM, EJ Photo wrote: >> >>> I haven't seen heat fog with that paper. It could very well be an >>> issue with >>> Ferric but replacing is NOT always needed. It could very well be >>> that >>> repairing it is in order. It could be a pH issue or all sorts of >>> stuff. Try >>> adding some more Oxalic acid to your ferric. Hair dryers should >>> only be used >>> lightly and primarily on the backside with low heat. >>> >>> >>> I'd suspect the light bleed along the negative material; light >>> piping. Try >>> place the mask under it just for a test and see if it stops it. If >>> you can't >>> get it to stop, clear, or prevent the distraction of the fog, just >>> coat the >>> whole piece of paper. ; ) >>> >>> have you tried a fresh batch of developer? Is it possible that you >>> were >>> playing around with it and had some lithium in the mix? or gold >>> that is >>> fogging it? >>> >>> Eric >>> >>> Eric Neilsen >>> Eric Neilsen Photography >>> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 >>> Dallas, TX 75226 >>> >>> www.ericneilsenphotography.com >>> skype me with ejprinter >>> www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1 >>> Let's Talk Photography >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org >>> [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On >>> Behalf Of >>> Diana Bloomfield >>> Sent: Monday, March 08, 2010 7:27 AM >>> To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list >>> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Weston Diploma Parchment >>> >>> Jon, >>> >>> Have you printed any of these without using a hair dryer beforehand? >>> I'm thinking your problem might be either exhausted ferric oxalate, >>> and/or use of the hair dryer-- as well as allowing it to sit for an >>> additional 15 minutes after using the hair dryer(?). I taught a >>> workshop once where there was some evidence of fogging, but only for >>> those people using hair dryers-- even when they set it on a "cool" >>> setting. When we eliminated the use of hair dryers, the problem >>> disappeared. Just a suggestion, but it's worth a try to switch to >>> fresh ferric oxalate and skip the hair dryer. I also think certain >>> papers are really a disaster for pt/pd. I used to use, many years, >>> ago Cranes Platinotype (sp?), and I couldn't completely clear a >>> print >>> on that paper to save my life-- no matter what I used.. I never >>> liked >>> the Weston paper, either, but I know I'm in the minority there. I >>> just don't like the weight of it. >>> >>> Diana >>> >>> >>> On Mar 8, 2010, at 5:25 AM, Jon Reid wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> I have been battling a problem for about 6 months now. At first I >>>> thought it was a clearing problem then after trying various things >>>> realised that it wasn't clearing but rather some density that was >>>> appearing in the coated area of the paper that is masked during >>>> exposure. The paper that I have been trying to print on is Weston >>>> Diploma Parchment. I bought this paper in early 2008 from Bostick & >>>> Sullivan and believe it is stock that was made by Cranes, not the >>>> re- >>>> invented Diploma Parchment Plat Pal being marketed by John >>>> Zowkowski >>>> of Butler Dearden. >>>> >>>> I am wishing to print my 5x7 rollo-pyro negs on these 11x14 sheets >>>> for my debut solo exhibition. I do not want to mat the prints so I >>>> am trying for very clear coated-but-masked areas. The other night, >>>> believing I was dealing with a fogging issue I set up darkroom >>>> safelights and coated under those lights. I then used a hair dryer >>>> and rested the paper in the room for 10-15min before exposure >>>> (11min >>>> in my UV box), and developed in KOx (cold bath version-fresh) at >>>> 21C. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 09:19:13 -0500 > From: Keith Gerling > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Compelling Abstracts > Message-ID: > <98766a901003150719y7e2a5555q2decb117b5683da5 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Thanks, Rajul. I enjoyed these. Have you ever seen any in > person? Is the > textural appearance all "photographic", oe have the inkjet prints been > physically altered? > > On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 12:28 PM, Rajul wrote: > >> Hello Everyone! >> >> Google Nicholas Baier, a photographer from Montreal, P.Q., whose >> work is >> currently on view at the CMCP >> (Canadian Museum of Contemporary Photography). Make sure you have >> time >> enough to take in what he has done. >> I was thrilled! >> >> Rajul_______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 16:28:06 +0200 > From: "Harry Lock" > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" > > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Compelling Abstracts > Message-ID: <4A1571CBDF0D46BA902042A2835B5751 at Harry> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I'd like to know how he sticks the prints onto the materials he > uses. Any ideas? > > Harry > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Keith Gerling > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 4:19 PM > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Compelling Abstracts > > > Thanks, Rajul. I enjoyed these. Have you ever seen any in > person? Is the > textural appearance all "photographic", oe have the inkjet prints > been > physically altered? > > On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 12:28 PM, Rajul wrote: > >> Hello Everyone! >> >> Google Nicholas Baier, a photographer from Montreal, P.Q., whose >> work is >> currently on view at the CMCP >> (Canadian Museum of Contemporary Photography). Make sure you have >> time >> enough to take in what he has done. >> I was thrilled! >> >> Rajul_______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > End of Alt-photo-process-list Digest, Vol 94, Issue 1 > ***************************************************** From frangst at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 16:48:02 2010 From: frangst at gmail.com (francis schanberger) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 12:48:02 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] was Yupo as a support now floating the image ala Francis Message-ID: <4c6fbba01003180948m691f8c57qa258152738fae480@mail.gmail.com> Paul, On Flickr I have uploaded images of how I attach the T's to float an image on a backing board and ultimately a frame. The link is to a close-up of the T on the back of a print. There are other photos nearby of the whole process. http://www.flickr.com/photos/frangst/4442848085/ I use the same type of paper that I made the print on to make the T's. I used to use gummed linen tape to attach them but have switched to self-adhesive linen hinging tape. -francis schanberger www.frangst.com From jseigel at panix.com Fri Mar 19 04:30:45 2010 From: jseigel at panix.com (Judy Seigel) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 00:30:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotype In-Reply-To: <1FE362630FC8FA4EBE5B48CB301588AAA45C72@mailh.lumcnet.prod.intern> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk><1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk><004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com><854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net><8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl><006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com><007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com><20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com> <20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <1FE362630FC8FA4EBE5B48CB301588AAA45C72@mailh.lumcnet.prod.intern> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Mar 2010, C.Breukel at lumc.nl wrote: > Got this mail form Mike Ware some time ago (I am on a mailing list of > mike, guess some people already heard about it). Anyway: food for > thought I guess.... > > Cor Well, Cor... what occurs to me is a sexual metaphor, which I will omit... no, on 2nd thought -- I may of course be wrong, but it seems to me that filling an inkjet cartridge with the mixed emulsion and then making one's "alternative print" by inkjet printer is like taking a shower with a raincoat on. In any event, at least for this gum printer, getting there is half the fun (who remembers that slogan? I forget which advertiser -- a cruise ship? something like that...). Which is to say, if the object is only to turn out a digital print, what difference does it make what the "ink" is ? It could be blackberry juice, squid ink, monkey blood, vandyke brown solution or shoe dye, among other possibilities that come to mind... It's true that making the large neg is a PITA... but it seems to me (granted, from no experience in the proposed process) that printing out the large negative, digitally or otherwise, and working with that, involves a lot less chemistry and more flexibility. And isn't the point, or part of it, to be in control? Also, I note that the description speaks of "sensitized papers of the 'single-layer' category" -- yet increasingly another layer of a different medium has become part of the scheme (and that's even without the joy of gum). Plus, what happens to the emulsion in the metal "cartridge"? Aren't emulsions safest in glass??? Etc. etc. etc... (See paragraph the first, above.) Meanwhile": Feh ! Judy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> > > Metalotype: Metal-jet Printing > > > The current practice of Hybrid Digital-Alternative Printing involves > making large negatives digitally with an inkjet printer, in order to > contact-print them photographically onto hand-coated 'alternative' > sensitized papers of the 'single-layer' category, such as cyanotype, > argyrotype, palladiotype, platinotype and chrysotype. > > > With the advance of digital printing technology, this wasteful and > complex procedure could soon become redundant: to obtain an identical > result, it would only be necessary to fill an inkjet printer cartridge > with a solution of Chemical A, and print the 'potential image' onto a > sheet of fine paper. This would then be 'developed' in a solution of > Chemical B, which reacts with Chemical A to produce the desired image > substance in situ, probably in nanoparticle form; the print is then > washed and dried. Depending on the choice of Chemicals A and B, the > result could be a plain paper print in: Prussian blue, silver, > palladium, platinum or gold, with the image substance embedded in the > surface fibres of the paper, just the same as hand-coated siderotypes > printed photochemically - and laboriously - from negatives. > > > Such prints should be indistinguishable in their chemical and physical > structure from those made by the traditional methods. > I suggest the names Metal-jet Printing or Metalotype for this procedure. > It would have the following advantages: > > > 1) It would eliminate all the alternative photographic paraphernalia: no > UV light sources, printing frames or vacuum easels, coating implements, > safe lighting, photosensitive chemicals, etc. This might encourage more > digital photographers to try 'alternative' image substances and fine > papers. > > > 2) It would eliminate the large internegative - which is costly in > ceramic-coated film and pigment printer inks. > > > 3) The wet processing procedure would be simple, reusable, economic, and > eco-friendly. > > > 4) For a print of an 'average scene', it would consume less than one > tenth of the amount of precious metal required at present, because none > is washed away in the processing. Saving over 90% of the cost of > platinum, palladium, silver, or gold would be a significant benefit > which could widen the appeal and use of these precious metals as print > media. > > > The possibilities do not end there, however: because there is no need > for the imaging system to be photochemical, a wide range of simple > chemical reactions - by metathesis or by reduction-oxidation - could be > employed to make digital photographic prints on plain paper in all sorts > of stable pigments never previously usable; for instance, the insoluble > sulphides, selenides, chromates, and iodides of various heavy metals > such as lead, bismuth, mercury, cadmium or silver. Besides the familiar > Prussian blue, other coloured ferrocyanides and ferricyanides are > possible. In addition to the traditional platinum, palladium and gold, > the other 'noble' metals could be reduced, as images in rhenium, > ruthenium, rhodium, osmium and iridium (should anyone wish to do so). > Three-colour printing should also be possible. Other metals and more > exotic pigments will suggest themselves to the inventive chemist as > potential image substances, but the chemistry required is mostly > elementary - CM 101. > > > The difficulties could be expected to arise with achieving an > appropriate rheology of the "ink" solution of Chemical A for the > piezoelectric printheads, by adjusting its surface tension and viscosity > parameters for the best distribution in the cellulose paper fibres. > Doubtless these are deep commercial secrets, already well-understood by > the manufacturers of printer inks. A benefit would come from the "ink" > being a true solution, not a particulate suspension, so there would be > no problems of clogged printheads; there may however be issues of > corrosion and toxicity with some chemicals. > > > Is there anyone out there with the technical know-how to convert an > inkjet printer to this use? I'm just amazed that it seems not to have > been done already. A chemically-dedicated inkjet printer could simply > eliminate the negative and the photochemistry. This is the logical end > result of 'hybrid practices' using digital technology. Unless one chose > to embrace pure analogue photographic practice, it would be time to bid > farewell to all siderotypes! > (Meanwhile, I continue to make them...) > Mike Ware, March 2010 > > > > > > > Dr Mike Ware > 20 Bath Road > Buxton > Derbyshire > SK17 6HH > UK > > > +44 (0)1298 78604 > mike at mikeware.co.uk > http://www.mikeware.co.uk > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > From alt.list at albertonovo.it Fri Mar 19 07:55:19 2010 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 08:55:19 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotype In-Reply-To: References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net> <977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk> <1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk> <004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com> <854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net> <8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl> <006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com> <007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com> <20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com> <20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it> <1FE362630FC8FA4EBE5B48CB301588AAA45C72@mailh.lumcnet.prod.intern> Message-ID: <20100319075519.24038.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> > In any event, at least for this gum printer, getting there is half the fun > (who remembers that slogan? I forget which advertiser -- a cruise ship? > something like that...). I perfectly remember (long-term memory is better than short-term at my age...) that when I bought my Durst enlarger in 1969 there was written on the box that "taking pictures is half the fun, printing pictures is twice the fun". Alberto From mail at loris.medici.name Fri Mar 19 09:30:43 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 11:30:43 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotype In-Reply-To: <20100319075519.24038.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> References: <4b901ac1.7f8.5e0.2701@montana.net><977F1E8D2CE24D3DB1A38C1F54747C09@altinyildiz.trk><1253EBA2B591459D962A270ABEBE6770@altinyildiz.trk><004401cabf95$819cf520$84d6df60$@com><854B668C-D4AB-4D2C-9751-D4435829DB0F@bellsouth.net><8EE9C69D-ABDB-4312-9B1B-47EF141452DC@zeelandnet.nl><006401cabf9c$facf6660$f06e3320$@com><007001cabf9e$1ef28a30$5cd79e90$@com><20100309160911.4098.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><725fa8581003090918m6c917f99xef65e0a032756139@mail.gmail.com><20100310072523.18598.qmail@webmaildh6.aruba.it><1FE362630FC8FA4EBE5B48CB301588AAA45C72@mailh.lumcnet.prod.intern> <20100319075519.24038.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> Message-ID: <53D581882B514815B36154B4030F0C14@altinyildiz.trk> Thanks Alberto, that made my day! :) -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf Of Alberto Novo Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 9:55 AM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotype ... when I bought my Durst enlarger in 1969 there was written on the box that "taking pictures is half the fun, printing pictures is twice the fun". From awschmitt at verizon.net Fri Mar 19 12:40:53 2010 From: awschmitt at verizon.net (Andy Schmitt) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 08:40:53 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Inkjet magic....feh Message-ID: <15C0DB9C8202453E95AF206823DE3B62@TOSHIBAAndy> It occurred to me this morning that Dan Burkholder, among others, has been doing just the opposite for a while now...Inkjet over Platinum, Van Dyke, etc.... Rather than me rehashing Dans words, please see the interview at: http://www.dpandi.com/dan/dan.html . As one who runs classes in EVERYTHING and loves a technical challenge...I still think I agree with Judy... Feh.... regards Andy Schmitt Photographer, Computerist, Slayer of Dragons All opinions expressed are mine...Unless otherwise stated or REALLY stupid Head of Photography, Peters Valley Craft Center 2010 schedule available on line at: http://www.petersvalley.org/brochure/photography.pdf >From Judy: Message: 2 Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 00:30:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Judy Seigel Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Metalotype On Thu, 11 Mar 2010, C.Breukel at lumc.nl wrote: > Got this mail form Mike Ware some time ago (I am on a mailing list of > mike, guess some people already heard about it). Anyway: food for > thought I guess.... > > Cor Well, Cor... what occurs to me is a sexual metaphor, which I will omit... no, on 2nd thought -- I may of course be wrong, but it seems to me that filling an inkjet cartridge with the mixed emulsion and then making one's "alternative print" by inkjet printer is like taking a shower with a raincoat on. In any event, at least for this gum printer, getting there is half the fun (who remembers that slogan? I forget which advertiser -- a cruise ship? something like that...). Which is to say, if the object is only to turn out a digital print, what difference does it make what the "ink" is ? It could be blackberry juice, squid ink, monkey blood, vandyke brown solution or shoe dye, among other possibilities that come to mind... It's true that making the large neg is a PITA... but it seems to me (granted, from no experience in the proposed process) that printing out the large negative, digitally or otherwise, and working with that, involves a lot less chemistry and more flexibility. And isn't the point, or part of it, to be in control? Also, I note that the description speaks of "sensitized papers of the 'single-layer' category" -- yet increasingly another layer of a different medium has become part of the scheme (and that's even without the joy of gum). Plus, what happens to the emulsion in the metal "cartridge"? Aren't emulsions safest in glass??? Etc. etc. etc... (See paragraph the first, above.) Meanwhile": Feh ! Judy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regards Andy Schmitt Photographer, Computerist, Slayer of Dragons All opinions expressed are mine...Unless otherwise stated or REALLY stupid Great new Products, Wearable's, etc at: http://www.cafepress.com/schmitthouse Head of Photography, Peters Valley Craft Center 2010 schedule available on line at: http://www.petersvalley.org/brochure/photography.pdf From Rene at qx.net Fri Mar 19 13:47:49 2010 From: Rene at qx.net (Rene Hales) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:47:49 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Inkjet magic....feh In-Reply-To: <15C0DB9C8202453E95AF206823DE3B62@TOSHIBAAndy> Message-ID: <1010CBC5333C4914A5A2B1306E8AE889@mmmRllc> I have done this following Ron Reeder's instruction and using QTR digital negative and palladium. Here are my results http://www.redbubble.com/people/renehales/art/2036061-5-cosmos-pig-pd I can't seem to find the instructions that I used on Ron's web site, but they used to be there. I did the inkjet printing on my Epson 4000 and then did the palladium layer over that--makes registration easier. The inkjet does not wash away and well you can see the results. Happy to answer questions. Rene -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Andy Schmitt Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 8:41 AM To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org Subject: [alt-photo] Inkjet magic....feh It occurred to me this morning that Dan Burkholder, among others, has been doing just the opposite for a while now...Inkjet over Platinum, Van Dyke, etc.... Rather than me rehashing Dans words, please see the interview at: http://www.dpandi.com/dan/dan.html . As one who runs classes in EVERYTHING and loves a technical challenge...I still think I agree with Judy... Feh.... regards Andy Schmitt Photographer, Computerist, Slayer of Dragons All opinions expressed are mine...Unless otherwise stated or REALLY stupid Head of Photography, Peters Valley Craft Center 2010 schedule available on line at: http://www.petersvalley.org/brochure/photography.pdf From mail at loris.medici.name Fri Mar 19 14:15:30 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 16:15:30 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Inkjet magic....feh In-Reply-To: <1010CBC5333C4914A5A2B1306E8AE889@mmmRllc> References: <15C0DB9C8202453E95AF206823DE3B62@TOSHIBAAndy> <1010CBC5333C4914A5A2B1306E8AE889@mmmRllc> Message-ID: <68C24CB1E101498683ECBFFAB4B93A2F@altinyildiz.trk> Nice work Rene. A tiny remark; I think I see some yellowing around the image, under the negative mask - could be my screen. If it's indeed that way then you may retest if the negative's density range is enough and/or review your clearing procedure and/or check if the chemistry is fresh / non-contaminated and/or try some other papers (some papers just don't work well). BTW, I happen to like inkjet / alt-process hybrid prints and I'm not put off by the idea. Nor I'm put off by the Metalotype idea of inkjet printing with pt/pd (or similar noble metal) "inks" and think they could stand as something by themselves - as long as they aren't masqueraded as being "traditional"(!) prints. (!) OTOH, how much "traditional" is a pt/pd print from a digital negative + artificial light source, always remain as an issue to consider of course... (Not that I'm trying to open a can of worms... but?) Regards, Loris. -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf Of Rene Hales Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 3:48 PM To: aschmitt at aandy.org; 'The alternative photographic processes mailing list' Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Inkjet magic....feh I have done this following Ron Reeder's instruction and using QTR digital negative and palladium. Here are my results http://www.redbubble.com/people/renehales/art/2036061-5-cosmos-pig-pd I can't seem to find the instructions that I used on Ron's web site, but they used to be there. I did the inkjet printing on my Epson 4000 and then did the palladium layer over that--makes registration easier. The inkjet does not wash away and well you can see the results. Happy to answer questions. Rene From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Fri Mar 19 14:22:29 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:22:29 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] platinum over pigment In-Reply-To: <1010CBC5333C4914A5A2B1306E8AE889@mmmRllc> References: <1010CBC5333C4914A5A2B1306E8AE889@mmmRllc> Message-ID: That's really nice, Rene. That's mostly how I've been using some of my remaining platinum/palladium I have. I think this is such a beautiful process, and I love how you can control the amount of color-- and also what the addition of pt/pd does to the small amount of color there, too. I also do the pt/pd layer over the print-- agree that it makes registration much easier, and I use Arches Platine paper. What paper are you using? I learned this way of doing it (the pt/pd over the print) from a YouTube video-- from the people who have posted here before, I think, whose name I now can't remember. So helpful. I think it's the ProjectVedos videos (from Finland?). But it's an intriguing process, and I love your image here-- really lovely. Thanks. Diana On Mar 19, 2010, at 9:47 AM, Rene Hales wrote: > I have done this following Ron Reeder's instruction and using QTR > digital > negative and palladium. Here are my results > > http://www.redbubble.com/people/renehales/art/2036061-5-cosmos-pig-pd > > I can't seem to find the instructions that I used on Ron's web site, > but > they used to be there. I did the inkjet printing on my Epson 4000 > and then > did the palladium layer over that--makes registration easier. The > inkjet > does not wash away and well you can see the results. > > Happy to answer questions. > > Rene > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On > Behalf Of > Andy Schmitt > Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 8:41 AM > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] Inkjet magic....feh > > > > It occurred to me this morning that Dan Burkholder, among others, > has been > doing just the opposite for a while now...Inkjet over Platinum, Van > Dyke, > etc.... Rather than me rehashing Dans words, please see the > interview at: > http://www.dpandi.com/dan/dan.html . > > As one who runs classes in EVERYTHING and loves a technical > challenge...I > still think I agree with Judy... > > Feh.... > > regards > > Andy Schmitt > Photographer, Computerist, Slayer of Dragons > All opinions expressed are mine...Unless otherwise stated or > REALLY > stupid Head of Photography, Peters Valley Craft Center 2010 schedule > available on line at: > http://www.petersvalley.org/brochure/photography.pdf > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From Rene at qx.net Fri Mar 19 14:44:25 2010 From: Rene at qx.net (Rene Hales) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:44:25 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: platinum over pigment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <45FE7C5CE0064FC69300A409E400D859@mmmRllc> Diana, thanks, I too used the Platine paper. But recently bought some Hahnemuhle Photo Rag to try as it was mentioned in Christopher James's book second edition. Page 372 "It is a great paper for gum on ink-jet and PT/Pd on ink-jet." Have not tried it yet, but I am going to. Thanks for the video tip. Will check them out. Rene http://www.pbase.com/halesr -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Diana Bloomfield Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 10:22 AM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] platinum over pigment That's really nice, Rene. That's mostly how I've been using some of my remaining platinum/palladium I have. I think this is such a beautiful process, and I love how you can control the amount of color-- and also what the addition of pt/pd does to the small amount of color there, too. I also do the pt/pd layer over the print-- agree that it makes registration much easier, and I use Arches Platine paper. What paper are you using? I learned this way of doing it (the pt/pd over the print) from a YouTube video-- from the people who have posted here before, I think, whose name I now can't remember. So helpful. I think it's the ProjectVedos videos (from Finland?). But it's an intriguing process, and I love your image here-- really lovely. Thanks. Diana On Mar 19, 2010, at 9:47 AM, Rene Hales wrote: > I have done this following Ron Reeder's instruction and using QTR > digital > negative and palladium. Here are my results > > http://www.redbubble.com/people/renehales/art/2036061-5-cosmos-pig-pd > > I can't seem to find the instructions that I used on Ron's web site, > but > they used to be there. I did the inkjet printing on my Epson 4000 > and then > did the palladium layer over that--makes registration easier. The > inkjet > does not wash away and well you can see the results. > > Happy to answer questions. > > Rene From Rene at qx.net Fri Mar 19 14:52:46 2010 From: Rene at qx.net (Rene Hales) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:52:46 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Inkjet magic....feh In-Reply-To: <68C24CB1E101498683ECBFFAB4B93A2F@altinyildiz.trk> Message-ID: Loris, thanks, and thanks for the tips on the processing and things to check for. I am such a beginner, but am going for a tri-color gum workshop this summer in MT at the Formulary. Hopefully will keep adding to my knowledge base. Rene http://www.pbase.com/halesr -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Loris Medici Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 10:16 AM To: 'The alternative photographic processes mailing list' Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Inkjet magic....feh Nice work Rene. A tiny remark; I think I see some yellowing around the image, under the negative mask - could be my screen. If it's indeed that way then you may retest if the negative's density range is enough and/or review your clearing procedure and/or check if the chemistry is fresh / non-contaminated and/or try some other papers (some papers just don't work well). BTW, I happen to like inkjet / alt-process hybrid prints and I'm not put off by the idea. Nor I'm put off by the Metalotype idea of inkjet printing with pt/pd (or similar noble metal) "inks" and think they could stand as something by themselves - as long as they aren't masqueraded as being "traditional"(!) prints. (!) OTOH, how much "traditional" is a pt/pd print from a digital negative + artificial light source, always remain as an issue to consider of course... (Not that I'm trying to open a can of worms... but?) Regards, Loris. -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf Of Rene Hales Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 3:48 PM To: aschmitt at aandy.org; 'The alternative photographic processes mailing list' Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Inkjet magic....feh I have done this following Ron Reeder's instruction and using QTR digital negative and palladium. Here are my results http://www.redbubble.com/people/renehales/art/2036061-5-cosmos-pig-pd I can't seem to find the instructions that I used on Ron's web site, but they used to be there. I did the inkjet printing on my Epson 4000 and then did the palladium layer over that--makes registration easier. The inkjet does not wash away and well you can see the results. Happy to answer questions. Rene _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Fri Mar 19 14:53:44 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:53:44 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: platinum over pigment In-Reply-To: <45FE7C5CE0064FC69300A409E400D859@mmmRllc> References: <45FE7C5CE0064FC69300A409E400D859@mmmRllc> Message-ID: Hi Rene, Yeah-- I saw that in his book, too. I tried it, and it was a total disaster. I'm thinking I either missed something, or some little something was lost in translation. When stuff like that happens to me, I'm always reminded of my mother who was an amazing cook. She'd give me one of her recipes, and when I made whatever it was-- my final result would turn out to be something totally unrelated to what she made, and hardly worth putting on the table. She'd ask me what I did, look at the recipe she'd given me, and then go-- oops-- and explain that she'd completely forgotten to add thus and such-- which, nine times out of ten, turned out to be a crucial part of the recipe. ;) So I'm thinking that I either did something wrong there with James' suggestion (I did try it several times), or he left something really crucial out of that suggestion. But if you try it, do let me know how it goes for you. And, yes, the ProjectVedos videos are really done well and very helpful, I think. Diana On Mar 19, 2010, at 10:44 AM, Rene Hales wrote: > Diana, thanks, I too used the Platine paper. But recently bought some > Hahnemuhle Photo Rag to try as it was mentioned in Christopher > James's book > second edition. Page 372 "It is a great paper for gum on ink-jet and > PT/Pd > on ink-jet." Have not tried it yet, but I am going to. > > Thanks for the video tip. Will check them out. > > Rene > http://www.pbase.com/halesr > > - From Rene at qx.net Fri Mar 19 14:56:08 2010 From: Rene at qx.net (Rene Hales) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:56:08 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: platinum over pigment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Diana, will let you know what happens.--Rene -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Diana Bloomfield Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 10:54 AM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: platinum over pigment Hi Rene, Yeah-- I saw that in his book, too. I tried it, and it was a total disaster. I'm thinking I either missed something, or some little something was lost in translation. When stuff like that happens to me, I'm always reminded of my mother who was an amazing cook. She'd give me one of her recipes, and when I made whatever it was-- my final result would turn out to be something totally unrelated to what she made, and hardly worth putting on the table. She'd ask me what I did, look at the recipe she'd given me, and then go-- oops-- and explain that she'd completely forgotten to add thus and such-- which, nine times out of ten, turned out to be a crucial part of the recipe. ;) So I'm thinking that I either did something wrong there with James' suggestion (I did try it several times), or he left something really crucial out of that suggestion. But if you try it, do let me know how it goes for you. And, yes, the ProjectVedos videos are really done well and very helpful, I think. Diana On Mar 19, 2010, at 10:44 AM, Rene Hales wrote: > Diana, thanks, I too used the Platine paper. But recently bought some > Hahnemuhle Photo Rag to try as it was mentioned in Christopher > James's book > second edition. Page 372 "It is a great paper for gum on ink-jet and > PT/Pd > on ink-jet." Have not tried it yet, but I am going to. > > Thanks for the video tip. Will check them out. > > Rene > http://www.pbase.com/halesr > > - _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From alt.list at albertonovo.it Fri Mar 19 17:49:50 2010 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 18:49:50 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] a new old process Message-ID: <20100319174950.17932.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> I have found for the first time that there was a process called "pannotipo" in Italian, which translation could be "clothtype", made of a collodion print on a dark oilcloth. That is, a tintipe on cloth. Have you never heard about it? What is its true name in Englilsh? Alberto From john at johnbrewerphotography.com Sat Mar 20 12:07:33 2010 From: john at johnbrewerphotography.com (John Brewer) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 12:07:33 -0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: a new old process In-Reply-To: <20100319174950.17932.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> References: <20100319174950.17932.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> Message-ID: <007701cac825$ec633430$c5299c90$@com> Hi Alberto Frederick Scott Archer patented a method of stripping collodion images from glass so they could be transferred to other substrates such as cloth and leather. I've been doing some research on Archer and a few weeks ago saw an example on cloth at The National Media Museum, Bradford, UK which is thought to be by Archer. As far as I know from talking to the curators this is the only example in The NMM and Royal Photographic Society collections so wasn't popular for some reason, maybe because there wasn't a need for it or was difficult to do. John. -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Alberto Novo Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 5:50 PM To: AltList Subject: [alt-photo] a new old process I have found for the first time that there was a process called "pannotipo" in Italian, which translation could be "clothtype", made of a collodion print on a dark oilcloth. That is, a tintipe on cloth. Have you never heard about it? What is its true name in Englilsh? Alberto _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2759 - Release Date: 03/20/10 07:33:00 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2759 - Release Date: 03/20/10 07:33:00 -------------- next part -------------- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2759 - Release Date: 03/20/10 07:33:00 From zphoto at montana.net Sat Mar 20 18:26:33 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 12:26:33 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] BFK vs. Weston Argyrotype Message-ID: <474DB994-F646-4732-98BD-DC1DD3DE157A@montana.net> Dear All, I finally got around to uploading an example to my website. Here is a student example of the difference between BFK and Weston paper, same everything else. Paper is very important, and I might say the same with VDB as well. BFK used to be so good but lately across the board this semester it has been yukky for argyrotype. I have not tried adding citric acid to the argyrotype solution yet, though, to see if it does the trick. Chris http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=2076 Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com From viapiano at pacbell.net Sat Mar 20 18:32:54 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 11:32:54 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BFK vs. Weston Argyrotype References: <474DB994-F646-4732-98BD-DC1DD3DE157A@montana.net> Message-ID: <32F3BB8E5893490A9913DEC45E42B0EA@dell4600> Chris... That's the newer Weston? And where are you ordering that from, again? Cost? Much thanks in advance... Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christina Anderson" To: "Alt List" Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2010 11:26 AM Subject: [alt-photo] BFK vs. Weston Argyrotype > Dear All, > > I finally got around to uploading an example to my website. > > Here is a student example of the difference between BFK and Weston paper, > same everything else. Paper is very important, and I might say the same > with VDB as well. BFK used to be so good but lately across the board this > semester it has been yukky for argyrotype. I have not tried adding citric > acid to the argyrotype solution yet, though, to see if it does the trick. > > Chris > > http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=2076 > > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From ender100 at aol.com Sat Mar 20 19:41:51 2010 From: ender100 at aol.com (ender100) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 14:41:51 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BFK vs. Weston Argyrotype In-Reply-To: <474DB994-F646-4732-98BD-DC1DD3DE157A@montana.net> Message-ID: CHris, Did you test the Rives BFK paper with a PH pen? -- Best Wishes, Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negatives PDNPrint Forum @ Yahoo Groups Mark Nelson Photography On Mar 20, 2010, at 1:26:33 PM, "Christina Anderson" wrote: From: "Christina Anderson" Subject: [alt-photo] BFK vs. Weston Argyrotype Date: March 20, 2010 1:26:33 PM CDT To: "Alt List" Dear All, I finally got around to uploading an example to my website. Here is a student example of the difference between BFK and Weston paper, same everything else. Paper is very important, and I might say the same with VDB as well. BFK used to be so good but lately across the board this semester it has been yukky for argyrotype. I have not tried adding citric acid to the argyrotype solution yet, though, to see if it does the trick. Chris http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=2076 Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Sat Mar 20 21:54:04 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 15:54:04 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BFK vs. Weston Argyrotype In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <732F735C-1315-4C0A-88D3-4CE7A26451E7@montana.net> no....my pen is very old, don't have a current one. chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Mar 20, 2010, at 1:41 PM, ender100 wrote: > CHris, > > Did you test the Rives BFK paper with a PH pen? > -- > Best Wishes, > > Mark Nelson > Precision Digital Negatives > PDNPrint Forum @ Yahoo Groups > > Mark Nelson Photography > > > On Mar 20, 2010, at 1:26:33 PM, "Christina Anderson" wrote: > > From: "Christina Anderson" > Subject: [alt-photo] BFK vs. Weston Argyrotype > Date: March 20, 2010 1:26:33 PM CDT > To: "Alt List" > Dear All, > > I finally got around to uploading an example to my website. > > Here is a student example of the difference between BFK and Weston paper, same everything else. Paper is very important, and I might say the same with VDB as well. BFK used to be so good but lately across the board this semester it has been yukky for argyrotype. I have not tried adding citric acid to the argyrotype solution yet, though, to see if it does the trick. > > Chris > > http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=2076 > > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Sat Mar 20 21:59:15 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 15:59:15 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: BFK vs. Weston Argyrotype In-Reply-To: <32F3BB8E5893490A9913DEC45E42B0EA@dell4600> References: <474DB994-F646-4732-98BD-DC1DD3DE157A@montana.net> <32F3BB8E5893490A9913DEC45E42B0EA@dell4600> Message-ID: <82D17F24-410E-4AFB-9962-AEF6EAB08649@montana.net> Paul, I bought it from John a year or two ago. Just ordered another batch from him. Contact info below. I ordered a large quantity, hence the cheaper price. But still it is a very affordable paper. Chris Christina, the Weston is available only through me. We've done an incredible amount of work on this paper. Two many hands would only mess things up. I look forward to hearing from you. John Zokowski Butler-Dearden Paper 413-247-9073 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anderson, Christina" To: "J Zokowski" > > We have both 22 X 34 and 28 X 34 > > The costs are as follows: 100 sheets of 22 X 34 is $1.53/sheet, and 100 > sheets > of the 28 X 34 is $1.96/sheet. > > 250 of 22 X 34 would be $1.40/sheet, and 250 of the 28 X 34 would be > $1.53/sheet . > > John Z > ----- Original Message ----- From awschmitt at verizon.net Sun Mar 21 13:24:56 2010 From: awschmitt at verizon.net (Andy Schmitt) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 09:24:56 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Christina's comparisons & site Message-ID: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy> Christina, I just had to take a moment to publically thank you for the rest of the info on your site..... Also to tell you I love you're washing area.... 8o) I use to do that until I made up a batch of Silver printing paper & killed the tub... It was an older tub & the surface was just porous enough...the landlord was really pissed at that one. Regards Andy Schmitt Head of Photography, Peters Valley Craft Center 2010 schedule available on line at: http://www.petersvalley.org/brochure/photography.pdf ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 12:26:33 -0600 From: Christina Anderson Subject: [alt-photo] BFK vs. Weston Argyrotype Dear All, I finally got around to uploading an example to my website. Here is a student example of the difference between BFK and Weston paper, same everything else. Paper is very important, and I might say the same with VDB as well. BFK used to be so good but lately across the board this semester it has been yukky for argyrotype. I have not tried adding citric acid to the argyrotype solution yet, though, to see if it does the trick. Chris http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=2076 Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com From zphoto at montana.net Sun Mar 21 17:39:46 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 11:39:46 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Christina's comparisons & site In-Reply-To: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy> References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy> Message-ID: <7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net> Thanks, Andy! I have uploaded some more stuff to see...I don't need much egging on when something is appreciated :) : http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=2076 I show some more argyrotype stuff, and a couple pt/pd things as well. Yes, I no longer do argyrotype or VDB at home because the brown stains are....just not appealing in the bathtub or sink. Gum is another story--at least it washes off! Unless you get dichromate stains anywhere (and cyanotype on the carpet as I did) and then you are SOL. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Mar 21, 2010, at 7:24 AM, Andy Schmitt wrote: > Christina, > I just had to take a moment to publically thank you for the rest of the info > on your site..... > Also to tell you I love you're washing area.... 8o) I use to do that until I > made up a batch of Silver printing paper & killed the tub... It was an older > tub & the surface was just porous enough...the landlord was really pissed at > that one. > Regards > Andy Schmitt > Head of Photography, Peters Valley Craft Center > 2010 schedule available on line at: > http://www.petersvalley.org/brochure/photography.pdf From viapiano at pacbell.net Sun Mar 21 19:01:34 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 12:01:34 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] to shrink or not to shrink References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy> <7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net> Message-ID: <3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600> Well, everyone...just wanted to report that yesterday I made a gum print on Rives BFK (who the hell knows what flavor), a piece of paper 10 x 11 inches. I did not preshrink. I registered with pinholes and when the first layer was complete and dried, the paper lined right up with the pinholes of the next layer's negative. No shrinking!!! So, it seems that for this size of paper/images I can forego preshrinking, unless of course it raises its ugly head during the next two layer cycles... Happy printing! Paul From jeremydmoore at gmail.com Sun Mar 21 19:53:08 2010 From: jeremydmoore at gmail.com (Jeremy Moore) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 14:53:08 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink In-Reply-To: <3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600> References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy> <7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net> <3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600> Message-ID: <66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com> Yeah, let's see how the 3rd layer goes on... also, how large is the image size? It could be an 8x10 on 10x11 paper or a 2x3 on 10x11 paper and that would make a difference. I know I can't even get away with a second coat w/o pre-shrinking at an image size of 12"x12". On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > Well, everyone...just wanted to report that yesterday I made a gum print on > Rives BFK (who the hell knows what flavor), a piece of paper 10 x 11 inches. > I did not preshrink. I registered with pinholes and when the first layer was > complete and dried, the paper lined right up with the pinholes of the next > layer's negative. No shrinking!!! > > So, it seems that for this size of paper/images I can forego preshrinking, > unless of course it raises its ugly head during the next two layer cycles... > > Happy printing! > > Paul > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From viapiano at pacbell.net Sun Mar 21 19:57:57 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 12:57:57 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net><3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600> <66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600> Image is approx 6 x 6 inches... I did this on a lark and am pleasantly surprised to see the pin register holes line up as I prepare for the 2nd layer ;-) Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeremy Moore" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 12:53 PM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink > Yeah, let's see how the 3rd layer goes on... also, how large is the > image size? It could be an 8x10 on 10x11 paper or a 2x3 on 10x11 paper > and that would make a difference. I know I can't even get away with a > second coat w/o pre-shrinking at an image size of 12"x12". > > On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Paul Viapiano > wrote: >> Well, everyone...just wanted to report that yesterday I made a gum print >> on >> Rives BFK (who the hell knows what flavor), a piece of paper 10 x 11 >> inches. >> I did not preshrink. I registered with pinholes and when the first layer >> was >> complete and dried, the paper lined right up with the pinholes of the >> next >> layer's negative. No shrinking!!! >> >> So, it seems that for this size of paper/images I can forego >> preshrinking, >> unless of course it raises its ugly head during the next two layer >> cycles... >> >> Happy printing! >> >> Paul >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From jeremydmoore at gmail.com Sun Mar 21 20:00:52 2010 From: jeremydmoore at gmail.com (Jeremy Moore) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 15:00:52 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink In-Reply-To: <87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600> References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy> <7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net> <3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600> <66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com> <87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600> Message-ID: <66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> Paul, what temperature is the water you're developing the print in, roundabouts? And are you sizing--if so, with what? On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > Image is approx 6 x 6 inches... > > I did this on a lark and am pleasantly surprised to see the pin register > holes line up as I prepare for the 2nd layer ;-) > > Paul > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeremy Moore" > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" > > Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 12:53 PM > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink > > >> Yeah, let's see how the 3rd layer goes on... also, how large is the >> image size? It could be an 8x10 on 10x11 paper or a 2x3 on 10x11 paper >> and that would make a difference. I know I can't even get away with a >> second coat w/o pre-shrinking at an image size of 12"x12". >> >> On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Paul Viapiano >> wrote: >>> >>> Well, everyone...just wanted to report that yesterday I made a gum print >>> on >>> Rives BFK (who the hell knows what flavor), a piece of paper 10 x 11 >>> inches. >>> I did not preshrink. I registered with pinholes and when the first layer >>> was >>> complete and dried, the paper lined right up with the pinholes of the >>> next >>> layer's negative. No shrinking!!! >>> >>> So, it seems that for this size of paper/images I can forego >>> preshrinking, >>> unless of course it raises its ugly head during the next two layer >>> cycles... >>> >>> Happy printing! >>> >>> Paul >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From viapiano at pacbell.net Sun Mar 21 20:40:59 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 13:40:59 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net><3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600><66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com><87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600> <66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Temp is approx 68 degrees F, no sizing, no nothing... Going to do a second layer momentarily... p ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeremy Moore" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 1:00 PM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink > Paul, what temperature is the water you're developing the print in, > roundabouts? And are you sizing--if so, with what? > > On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Paul Viapiano > wrote: >> Image is approx 6 x 6 inches... >> >> I did this on a lark and am pleasantly surprised to see the pin register >> holes line up as I prepare for the 2nd layer ;-) >> >> Paul >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeremy Moore" >> >> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" >> >> Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 12:53 PM >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink >> >> >>> Yeah, let's see how the 3rd layer goes on... also, how large is the >>> image size? It could be an 8x10 on 10x11 paper or a 2x3 on 10x11 paper >>> and that would make a difference. I know I can't even get away with a >>> second coat w/o pre-shrinking at an image size of 12"x12". >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Paul Viapiano >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Well, everyone...just wanted to report that yesterday I made a gum >>>> print >>>> on >>>> Rives BFK (who the hell knows what flavor), a piece of paper 10 x 11 >>>> inches. >>>> I did not preshrink. I registered with pinholes and when the first >>>> layer >>>> was >>>> complete and dried, the paper lined right up with the pinholes of the >>>> next >>>> layer's negative. No shrinking!!! >>>> >>>> So, it seems that for this size of paper/images I can forego >>>> preshrinking, >>>> unless of course it raises its ugly head during the next two layer >>>> cycles... >>>> >>>> Happy printing! >>>> >>>> Paul >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From jeremydmoore at gmail.com Sun Mar 21 20:47:30 2010 From: jeremydmoore at gmail.com (Jeremy Moore) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 15:47:30 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink In-Reply-To: References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy> <7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net> <3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600> <66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com> <87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600> <66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <66575de71003211347p78399dcdo8323cf242b414484@mail.gmail.com> *Fingers crossed!* -Jeremy- On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > Temp is approx 68 degrees F, no sizing, no nothing... > > Going to do a second layer momentarily... > > p > From viapiano at pacbell.net Sun Mar 21 22:43:59 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 15:43:59 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net><3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600><66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com><87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600><66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600> 2nd layer, perfect registration, no staining, clear highlights I should mention that I am clearing for approx 15-18 minutes, rinsing gently and drying with a hair dryer on med-low heat, then letting it air-dry for a bit. After this layer, the pin register holes still line up perfectly! Hope y'all don't mind the updates... Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Viapiano" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 1:40 PM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink > Temp is approx 68 degrees F, no sizing, no nothing... > > Going to do a second layer momentarily... > > p > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeremy Moore" > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" > > Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 1:00 PM > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink > > >> Paul, what temperature is the water you're developing the print in, >> roundabouts? And are you sizing--if so, with what? >> >> On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Paul Viapiano >> wrote: >>> Image is approx 6 x 6 inches... >>> >>> I did this on a lark and am pleasantly surprised to see the pin register >>> holes line up as I prepare for the 2nd layer ;-) >>> >>> Paul >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeremy Moore" >>> >>> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 12:53 PM >>> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink >>> >>> >>>> Yeah, let's see how the 3rd layer goes on... also, how large is the >>>> image size? It could be an 8x10 on 10x11 paper or a 2x3 on 10x11 paper >>>> and that would make a difference. I know I can't even get away with a >>>> second coat w/o pre-shrinking at an image size of 12"x12". >>>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Paul Viapiano >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Well, everyone...just wanted to report that yesterday I made a gum >>>>> print >>>>> on >>>>> Rives BFK (who the hell knows what flavor), a piece of paper 10 x 11 >>>>> inches. >>>>> I did not preshrink. I registered with pinholes and when the first >>>>> layer >>>>> was >>>>> complete and dried, the paper lined right up with the pinholes of the >>>>> next >>>>> layer's negative. No shrinking!!! >>>>> >>>>> So, it seems that for this size of paper/images I can forego >>>>> preshrinking, >>>>> unless of course it raises its ugly head during the next two layer >>>>> cycles... >>>>> >>>>> Happy printing! >>>>> >>>>> Paul >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From henry.rattle at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 22 15:22:34 2010 From: henry.rattle at ntlworld.com (Henry Rattle) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 15:22:34 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: pre-shrinking and PVA size In-Reply-To: <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600> Message-ID: Just finished some trials with PVA size on Saunders Waterford (300g hot-pressed) and Fabriano Artistico (300g CP, traditional white). Starting with virgin (not preshrunk) paper, the sequence was size, then (coat, dry, expose, 1 hour in water at about 20C, develop with spray, dry) for each of three coats of gum/pigment. In passing, I measured shrinkage. After the treatment above, the FA shrank 0% in one dimension and 1.1% in the other (across the 12x9 sheets I was using). The Waterford was 0.4% in one dimension and 1.2% in the other. My normal print size is about 9x7 inches, so a 1.1% shrinkage on the short dimension puts me about 0.8 mm (sorry for mixed units) out of register at the top and bottom edges of the print, assuming I register for the centre. Whether this matters to you depends on the subject matter, I guess - but I think I'll continue to preshrink my paper, though not in hot water. As to the Gamblin PVA size, I was very pleased. I coated successive 3 inch wide strips of each single sheet with full-strength, 1+1 and 1+2 PVA size, then coated and developed three-colour gum as above. The full-strength PVA, though I tried to coat thinly like Diana, had a few patches which were hard to coat. It also had the slightly plasticky surface that Diana objects to. At 1+1 both the Saunders and Fabriano coated easily and cleared very well. At 1+2 the Fabriano cleared well and the Saunders not quite so well. Both cleared better than my control sheet, which was Saunders which had been brush sized with gelatine/formaldehyde. That was my standard till today, but from now on I'll be using FA/PVA. The other plus for the PVA was that there is far less of a fierce curl on the dried paper than you get with gelatine, either brushed or soaked. Much easier for the next coat. With best wishes Henry From trevor at chalkjockeys.com Mon Mar 22 15:58:50 2010 From: trevor at chalkjockeys.com (Trevor Cunningham) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 18:58:50 +0300 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600> References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net><3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600><66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com><87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600><66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600> Message-ID: <4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com> So, do you line all three-four negs up at once and then stick em with the pin? I'm trying to figure out which registration system i'd like to use. I found a good site that sells registration tabs and such (posted it several months back), but if the pins work, why fuss and spend the cash? Paul, could you post a shot or two of you reg system? Paul Viapiano wrote: > 2nd layer, perfect registration, no staining, clear highlights > > I should mention that I am clearing for approx 15-18 minutes, rinsing > gently and drying with a hair dryer on med-low heat, then letting it > air-dry for a bit. > > After this layer, the pin register holes still line up perfectly! > > Hope y'all don't mind the updates... > > Paul > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Viapiano" > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" > > Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 1:40 PM > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink > > >> Temp is approx 68 degrees F, no sizing, no nothing... >> >> Going to do a second layer momentarily... >> >> p >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeremy Moore" >> >> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" >> >> Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 1:00 PM >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink >> >> >>> Paul, what temperature is the water you're developing the print in, >>> roundabouts? And are you sizing--if so, with what? >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Paul Viapiano >>> wrote: >>>> Image is approx 6 x 6 inches... >>>> >>>> I did this on a lark and am pleasantly surprised to see the pin >>>> register >>>> holes line up as I prepare for the 2nd layer ;-) >>>> >>>> Paul >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeremy Moore" >>>> >>>> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 12:53 PM >>>> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink >>>> >>>> >>>>> Yeah, let's see how the 3rd layer goes on... also, how large is the >>>>> image size? It could be an 8x10 on 10x11 paper or a 2x3 on 10x11 >>>>> paper >>>>> and that would make a difference. I know I can't even get away with a >>>>> second coat w/o pre-shrinking at an image size of 12"x12". >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Paul Viapiano >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Well, everyone...just wanted to report that yesterday I made a >>>>>> gum print >>>>>> on >>>>>> Rives BFK (who the hell knows what flavor), a piece of paper 10 x 11 >>>>>> inches. >>>>>> I did not preshrink. I registered with pinholes and when the >>>>>> first layer >>>>>> was >>>>>> complete and dried, the paper lined right up with the pinholes of >>>>>> the >>>>>> next >>>>>> layer's negative. No shrinking!!! >>>>>> >>>>>> So, it seems that for this size of paper/images I can forego >>>>>> preshrinking, >>>>>> unless of course it raises its ugly head during the next two layer >>>>>> cycles... >>>>>> >>>>>> Happy printing! >>>>>> >>>>>> Paul >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From viapiano at pacbell.net Mon Mar 22 16:10:21 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:10:21 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net><3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600><66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com><87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600><66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600> <4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com> Message-ID: <31C09631371242B9A2FC2EB450640918@dell4600> Hi Trevor... It's all very simple (well, a bit harder when I use inkjet waxed paper negs), but still very easy... I thought about using a reg tab system similar to Keith Taylor's , and may look into that when I have a block of time (ha!) but for now this works great. Yes, I line up all three negs on a light box, tape them to hold them together, move the grouped negs to a piece of corrugated cardboard and push three holes through all of them with a simple bulletin board pushpin. I like to put two holes at the top (left and right) and one hole at center bottom, anywhere on the border of your film that won't be seen when you cut your final mat or however you present. When I expose, I take my paper and one neg, stick the pins through all 3 holes, then I put the paper on top of the neg , on a lightbox and mark the corners of my coating area. I coat, dry and then reregister the first neg with the pins, tape the neg to the paper with low-tack blue tape in three spots, remove the pins, and I'm good to go in the contact frame. Hope this helps... Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trevor Cunningham" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 8:58 AM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) > So, do you line all three-four negs up at once and then stick em with the > pin? I'm trying to figure out which registration system i'd like to use. I > found a good site that sells registration tabs and such (posted it several > months back), but if the pins work, why fuss and spend the cash? Paul, > could you post a shot or two of you reg system? > > Paul Viapiano wrote: >> 2nd layer, perfect registration, no staining, clear highlights >> >> I should mention that I am clearing for approx 15-18 minutes, rinsing >> gently and drying with a hair dryer on med-low heat, then letting it >> air-dry for a bit. >> >> After this layer, the pin register holes still line up perfectly! >> >> Hope y'all don't mind the updates... >> >> Paul >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Viapiano" >> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" >> >> Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 1:40 PM >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink >> >> >>> Temp is approx 68 degrees F, no sizing, no nothing... >>> >>> Going to do a second layer momentarily... >>> >>> p >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeremy Moore" >>> >>> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 1:00 PM >>> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink >>> >>> >>>> Paul, what temperature is the water you're developing the print in, >>>> roundabouts? And are you sizing--if so, with what? >>>> >>>> On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Paul Viapiano >>>> wrote: >>>>> Image is approx 6 x 6 inches... >>>>> >>>>> I did this on a lark and am pleasantly surprised to see the pin >>>>> register >>>>> holes line up as I prepare for the 2nd layer ;-) >>>>> >>>>> Paul >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeremy Moore" >>>>> >>>>> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 12:53 PM >>>>> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Yeah, let's see how the 3rd layer goes on... also, how large is the >>>>>> image size? It could be an 8x10 on 10x11 paper or a 2x3 on 10x11 >>>>>> paper >>>>>> and that would make a difference. I know I can't even get away with a >>>>>> second coat w/o pre-shrinking at an image size of 12"x12". >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Mar 21, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Paul Viapiano >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well, everyone...just wanted to report that yesterday I made a gum >>>>>>> print >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> Rives BFK (who the hell knows what flavor), a piece of paper 10 x 11 >>>>>>> inches. >>>>>>> I did not preshrink. I registered with pinholes and when the first >>>>>>> layer >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> complete and dried, the paper lined right up with the pinholes of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> next >>>>>>> layer's negative. No shrinking!!! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So, it seems that for this size of paper/images I can forego >>>>>>> preshrinking, >>>>>>> unless of course it raises its ugly head during the next two layer >>>>>>> cycles... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Happy printing! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Paul >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 22 16:14:32 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:14:32 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: pre-shrinking and PVA size In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5E653D20-A95E-4FC8-88D2-928B387947DC@bellsouth.net> Hi Henry, Thanks for the update. That's really helpful. I do remember first attempting the PVA on Fabriano, and it offered up that plastic-like coating, which you mention-- and which I just don't seem to get on the Rives. So I'm guessing it sort of sits up more on the surface of the Fabriano, and perhaps sinks a little more into the Rives paper(?), or is somehow absorbed differently with Rives. I'm also guessing there's a lot more internal sizing in Fabriano than with the Rives paper, so maybe that might make a difference, too (and why you'd get patches that were difficult to coat on the Fabriano)-- especially since you didn't pre-shrink, and so didn't lose any of the manufacturer's sizing. I was really surprised by Paul's post-- which I read only briefly yesterday, so maybe I need to go back and re-read that to ensure I got it right-- but I was really surprised that he didn't have to size the Rives and got no staining. Anyway, I have some Fabriano here, so maybe I'll try that at your dilution. Thanks. Diana On Mar 22, 2010, at 11:22 AM, Henry Rattle wrote: > Just finished some trials with PVA size on Saunders Waterford (300g > hot-pressed) and Fabriano Artistico (300g CP, traditional white). > Starting > with virgin (not preshrunk) paper, the sequence was size, then > (coat, dry, > expose, 1 hour in water at about 20C, develop with spray, dry) for > each of > three coats of gum/pigment. > > In passing, I measured shrinkage. After the treatment above, the FA > shrank > 0% in one dimension and 1.1% in the other (across the 12x9 sheets I > was > using). The Waterford was 0.4% in one dimension and 1.2% in the other. > > My normal print size is about 9x7 inches, so a 1.1% shrinkage on the > short > dimension puts me about 0.8 mm (sorry for mixed units) out of > register at > the top and bottom edges of the print, assuming I register for the > centre. > Whether this matters to you depends on the subject matter, I guess - > but I > think I'll continue to preshrink my paper, though not in hot water. > > As to the Gamblin PVA size, I was very pleased. I coated successive > 3 inch > wide strips of each single sheet with full-strength, 1+1 and 1+2 PVA > size, > then coated and developed three-colour gum as above. > > The full-strength PVA, though I tried to coat thinly like Diana, had > a few > patches which were hard to coat. It also had the slightly plasticky > surface > that Diana objects to. > > At 1+1 both the Saunders and Fabriano coated easily and cleared very > well. > > At 1+2 the Fabriano cleared well and the Saunders not quite so well. > Both > cleared better than my control sheet, which was Saunders which had > been > brush sized with gelatine/formaldehyde. That was my standard till > today, but > from now on I'll be using FA/PVA. > > The other plus for the PVA was that there is far less of a fierce > curl on > the dried paper than you get with gelatine, either brushed or > soaked. Much > easier for the next coat. > > With best wishes > > Henry > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 22 16:18:49 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:18:49 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: <4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com> References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net><3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600><66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com><87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600><66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600> <4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com> Message-ID: <1DD6FA6E-85C8-4674-895A-AD10EF974897@bellsouth.net> Did I get that right, Paul-- that you didn't size with the Rives and got no staining? (I now can't find your post from yesterday.) Do you remember which of the many Rives papers you used? I'm also surprised you didn't pre-shrink and had no registration problems. Wow-- that would be great not not to have to deal with pre-shrinking. Thanks. I'm gonna try that, too. :) Diana On Mar 22, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Trevor Cunningham wrote: > So, do you line all three-four negs up at once and then stick em > with the pin? I'm trying to figure out which registration system i'd > like to use. I found a good site that sells registration tabs and > such (posted it several months back), but if the pins work, why fuss > and spend the cash? Paul, could you post a shot or two of you reg > system? > > Paul Viapiano wrote: From viapiano at pacbell.net Mon Mar 22 16:27:44 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:27:44 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net><3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600><66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com><87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600><66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600><4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com> <1DD6FA6E-85C8-4674-895A-AD10EF974897@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600> Diana... I didn't size and I didn't preshrink. Paper is 10 x 11 inches, image size is approx 6 x 6 inches, give or take. Here's a scan after 2 layers, indigo and then raw sienna, waxed paper neg. http://www.flickr.com/photos/viapiano/4454749196/ Please let me know what you think...anything at all! Thx..Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diana Bloomfield" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 9:18 AM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) > Did I get that right, Paul-- that you didn't size with the Rives and got > no staining? (I now can't find your post from yesterday.) Do you > remember which of the many Rives papers you used? I'm also surprised > you didn't pre-shrink and had no registration problems. Wow-- that would > be great not not to have to deal with pre-shrinking. Thanks. I'm gonna > try that, too. :) > > Diana > On Mar 22, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Trevor Cunningham wrote: > >> So, do you line all three-four negs up at once and then stick em with >> the pin? I'm trying to figure out which registration system i'd like to >> use. I found a good site that sells registration tabs and such (posted >> it several months back), but if the pins work, why fuss and spend the >> cash? Paul, could you post a shot or two of you reg system? >> >> Paul Viapiano wrote: > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 22 16:40:05 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:40:05 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: <965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600> References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net><3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600><66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com><87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600><66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600><4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com> <1DD6FA6E-85C8-4674-895A-AD10EF974897@bellsouth.net> <965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600> Message-ID: <01A06527-A684-4601-BBFE-ABBAA6F437D9@bellsouth.net> Thanks, Paul. I'm impressed. A mis-registration would definitely show up on an image like this, I think, and -- and on my screen, at least-- it looks perfect. I can't see any staining on those white parts at all, either-- really amazing. (I really like the image, too.) Very nice. Are you going to add other layers to this? If so, be sure and tell us what happens. I'm definitely going to try this, then. Thanks so much. Diana On Mar 22, 2010, at 12:27 PM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > Diana... > > I didn't size and I didn't preshrink. Paper is 10 x 11 inches, image > size is approx 6 x 6 inches, give or take. > > Here's a scan after 2 layers, indigo and then raw sienna, waxed > paper neg. > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/viapiano/4454749196/ > > Please let me know what you think...anything at all! > > Thx..Paul > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diana Bloomfield" > > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 9:18 AM > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) > > >> Did I get that right, Paul-- that you didn't size with the Rives >> and got no staining? (I now can't find your post from >> yesterday.) Do you remember which of the many Rives papers you >> used? I'm also surprised you didn't pre-shrink and had no >> registration problems. Wow-- that would be great not not to have >> to deal with pre-shrinking. Thanks. I'm gonna try that, too. :) >> >> Diana >> On Mar 22, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Trevor Cunningham wrote: >> >>> So, do you line all three-four negs up at once and then stick em >>> with the pin? I'm trying to figure out which registration system >>> i'd like to use. I found a good site that sells registration tabs >>> and such (posted it several months back), but if the pins work, >>> why fuss and spend the cash? Paul, could you post a shot or two >>> of you reg system? >>> >>> Paul Viapiano wrote: >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From viapiano at pacbell.net Mon Mar 22 16:50:35 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:50:35 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net><3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600><66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com><87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600><66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600><4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com><1DD6FA6E-85C8-4674-895A-AD10EF974897@bellsouth.net><965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600> <01A06527-A684-4601-BBFE-ABBAA6F437D9@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <529B984D825541CC99736206421F87F3@dell4600> Diana, That's why I chose this image. All the tile and brickwork is minute and would show any problems. I'll be adding a 3rd layer, hopefully today, of burnt sienna...kind of an old masters palette of indigo, raw sienna, burnt sienna that was suggested a while ago by Keith Gerling. I printed this image once before with the usual process colors, but the effect was garish. I'm hoping to be brave enough to print the 3rd layer without using PVA size ;-) One difference for me in doing this print, is that I added a small amount of water to the coating solution and it made all the difference in coating smoothly on this paper in particular. So if I used 1.25 ml of gum/pigment, I added about 1 ml of water plus 1 ml of pot di. Earlier prints that didn't use the added water (on this same paper) were very impressionistic, quite beautiful, but very different, ie, as follows: http://www.flickr.com/photos/viapiano/4155163449/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/viapiano/4138755731/ The water-added coating seems to fill the valleys in the paper to create a smooth-er look, at least to my eye. Thanks...Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diana Bloomfield" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 9:40 AM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) > Thanks, Paul. I'm impressed. A mis-registration would definitely show > up on an image like this, I think, and -- and on my screen, at least-- it > looks perfect. I can't see any staining on those white parts at all, > either-- really amazing. (I really like the image, too.) Very nice. > Are you going to add other layers to this? If so, be sure and tell us > what happens. > > I'm definitely going to try this, then. Thanks so much. > > Diana > > On Mar 22, 2010, at 12:27 PM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > >> Diana... >> >> I didn't size and I didn't preshrink. Paper is 10 x 11 inches, image >> size is approx 6 x 6 inches, give or take. >> >> Here's a scan after 2 layers, indigo and then raw sienna, waxed paper >> neg. >> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/viapiano/4454749196/ >> >> Please let me know what you think...anything at all! >> >> Thx..Paul >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diana Bloomfield" >> > > >> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" >> > > >> Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 9:18 AM >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) >> >> >>> Did I get that right, Paul-- that you didn't size with the Rives and >>> got no staining? (I now can't find your post from yesterday.) Do >>> you remember which of the many Rives papers you used? I'm also >>> surprised you didn't pre-shrink and had no registration problems. >>> Wow-- that would be great not not to have to deal with pre-shrinking. >>> Thanks. I'm gonna try that, too. :) >>> >>> Diana >>> On Mar 22, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Trevor Cunningham wrote: >>> >>>> So, do you line all three-four negs up at once and then stick em with >>>> the pin? I'm trying to figure out which registration system i'd like >>>> to use. I found a good site that sells registration tabs and such >>>> (posted it several months back), but if the pins work, why fuss and >>>> spend the cash? Paul, could you post a shot or two of you reg system? >>>> >>>> Paul Viapiano wrote: >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Mon Mar 22 17:13:34 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 19:13:34 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: <529B984D825541CC99736206421F87F3@dell4600> References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy> <87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600> <66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600> <4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com> <1DD6FA6E-85C8-4674-895A-AD10EF974897@bellsouth.net> <965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600> <01A06527-A684-4601-BBFE-ABBAA6F437D9@bellsouth.net> <529B984D825541CC99736206421F87F3@dell4600> Message-ID: <725fa8581003221013p53f60dc5y5dee4b061c89d562@mail.gmail.com> The print in progress looks very nice to me. Both aesthetically and technically. Please also post the finished version later! (BTW, it's nice to scan each step; it's a good way of keeping notes and very useful to show to students - I wish I wasn't that much lazy and do it that way each time...) I liked the impressionistic tree print - very much - too. Keep them coming Paul! Regards, Loris. 2010/3/22 Paul Viapiano : > ... > I'll be adding a 3rd layer, hopefully today, of burnt sienna...kind of an > old masters palette of indigo, raw sienna, burnt sienna that was suggested a > while ago by Keith Gerling. I printed this image once before with the usual > process colors, but the effect was garish. > > I'm hoping to be brave enough to print the 3rd layer without using PVA size > ;-) > > ... > > Earlier prints that didn't use the added water (on this same paper) were > very impressionistic, quite beautiful, but very different, ie, as follows: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/viapiano/4155163449/ > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/viapiano/4138755731/ > > The water-added coating seems to fill the valleys in the paper to create a > smooth-er look, at least to my eye. From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 22 17:27:37 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:27:37 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: <529B984D825541CC99736206421F87F3@dell4600> References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net><3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600><66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com><87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600><66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600><4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com><1DD6FA6E-85C8-4674-895A-AD10EF974897@bellsouth.net><965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600> <01A06527-A684-4601-BBFE-ABBAA6F437D9@bellsouth.net> <529B984D825541CC99736206421F87F3@dell4600> Message-ID: <2B6C2847-1C48-4296-A304-3F732A64A51C@bellsouth.net> Thanks, Paul. Yes, it would be tempting to leave that image as is-- (or, yikes, put that PVA on for the 3rd layer.) I do like that palette you've used. Really nicely done. Now I'm going to go and try a print on some Rives I have here, sans pre-shrinking and sizing. I'll let you know if it turns out to be a total disaster. I'm still adding drops of grain alcohol to my mix, for ease in coating (a little tip learned in Kerik's workshop)-- or maybe that was also to reduce those little sparkles with gelatin sizing? But that also seems to make things brush on very smoothly, plus I like the smell of it. I have a whole bottle of it here, so I have to use it somehow. ;) Diana On Mar 22, 2010, at 12:50 PM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > Diana, > > That's why I chose this image. All the tile and brickwork is minute > and would show any problems. > > I'll be adding a 3rd layer, hopefully today, of burnt sienna...kind > of an old masters palette of indigo, raw sienna, burnt sienna that > was suggested a while ago by Keith Gerling. I printed this image > once before with the usual process colors, but the effect was garish. > > I'm hoping to be brave enough to print the 3rd layer without using > PVA size ;-) > > One difference for me in doing this print, is that I added a small > amount of water to the coating solution and it made all the > difference in coating smoothly on this paper in particular. So if I > used 1.25 ml of gum/pigment, I added about 1 ml of water plus 1 ml > of pot di. > > Earlier prints that didn't use the added water (on this same paper) > were very impressionistic, quite beautiful, but very different, ie, > as follows: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/viapiano/4155163449/ > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/viapiano/4138755731/ > > The water-added coating seems to fill the valleys in the paper to > create a smooth-er look, at least to my eye. > > Thanks...Paul > > From kthayer at pacifier.com Mon Mar 22 18:36:05 2010 From: kthayer at pacifier.com (Katharine Thayer) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:36:05 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: <965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600> References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net><3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600><66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com><87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600><66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600><4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com> <1DD6FA6E-85C8-4674-895A-AD10EF974897@bellsouth.net> <965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600> Message-ID: Hey, looks great, and beautifully registered. A couple of questions/comments: (1) I assume your indigo isn't really indigo (PB 66, a fugitive pigment no longer used in any watercolor paints) but one of the mixtures of blue (a different blue in each case) with lamp black that are currently marketed under the name "indigo" by several paint manufacturers. Or are you using powdered PB66? (2) It will be interesting to see what your final print looks like and whether you're happy with it. I was looking at this as a finished duotone, and found the ochre-brown cast very appealing, but now that I realize (from another post that came in while I was writing this) that you mean this to be the first two layers of an (unsaturated) tricolor gum, I have different thoughts. It depends entirely on what effect you're hoping to achieve, so this might work perfectly for what you want to do, but in general if you're hoping to finish with a somewhat neutral and somewhat realistic-ish color balance, then you'd want the overall color cast of the print after the second layer to be roughly the color complement of the third layer. But if that's not important to you, or if you're intending an orangeish-brown final print (actually that might be cool, depending) then it doesn't matter. Katharine On Mar 22, 2010, at 8:27 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > Diana... > > I didn't size and I didn't preshrink. Paper is 10 x 11 inches, > image size is approx 6 x 6 inches, give or take. > > Here's a scan after 2 layers, indigo and then raw sienna, waxed > paper neg. > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/viapiano/4454749196/ > > Please let me know what you think...anything at all! > > Thx..Paul > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diana Bloomfield" > > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 9:18 AM > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) > > > >> Did I get that right, Paul-- that you didn't size with the Rives >> and got no staining? (I now can't find your post from >> yesterday.) Do you remember which of the many Rives papers you >> used? I'm also surprised you didn't pre-shrink and had no >> registration problems. Wow-- that would be great not not to have >> to deal with pre-shrinking. Thanks. I'm gonna try that, too. :) >> >> Diana >> On Mar 22, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Trevor Cunningham wrote: >> >> >>> So, do you line all three-four negs up at once and then stick em >>> with the pin? I'm trying to figure out which registration system >>> i'd like to use. I found a good site that sells registration >>> tabs and such (posted it several months back), but if the pins >>> work, why fuss and spend the cash? Paul, could you post a shot >>> or two of you reg system? >>> >>> Paul Viapiano wrote: >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > From mail at loris.medici.name Mon Mar 22 17:38:12 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 19:38:12 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: <2B6C2847-1C48-4296-A304-3F732A64A51C@bellsouth.net> References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy> <66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600> <4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com> <1DD6FA6E-85C8-4674-895A-AD10EF974897@bellsouth.net> <965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600> <01A06527-A684-4601-BBFE-ABBAA6F437D9@bellsouth.net> <529B984D825541CC99736206421F87F3@dell4600> <2B6C2847-1C48-4296-A304-3F732A64A51C@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <725fa8581003221038w336cdfet554ce7fbbb6a786f@mail.gmail.com> Diana, I tried that with pure isopropanol and it was coagulating the coating solution. Maybe I should try to find some pure ethanol... In any case, as many have found out before, adding a little more water often helps. Regards, Loris. 2010/3/22 Diana Bloomfield : > ... I'm still adding drops of grain alcohol to my mix, for ease in > coating (a little tip learned in Kerik's workshop)-- or maybe that was also > to reduce those little sparkles with gelatin sizing? ?But that also seems to > make things brush on very smoothly, plus I like the smell of it. ?I have a > whole bottle of it here, so I have to use it somehow. ;) From kerik at kerik.com Mon Mar 22 17:38:22 2010 From: kerik at kerik.com (Kerik) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: <2B6C2847-1C48-4296-A304-3F732A64A51C@bellsouth.net> References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net><3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600><66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com><87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600><66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600><4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com><1DD6FA6E-85C8-4674-895A-AD10EF974897@bellsouth.net><965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600> <01A06527-A684-4601-BBFE-ABBAA6F437D9@bellsouth.net> <529B984D825541CC99736206421F87F3@dell4600> <2B6C2847-1C48-4296-A304-3F732A64A51C@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <41667.192.146.217.50.1269279502.squirrel@www.kerik.com> Diana, The added Everclear helps in both cases. And when things go bad, it helps ease the pain. :-) Kerik ps I met a friend of yours in Houston at Fotofest - Rita Bernstein. Nice lady! > Thanks, Paul. Yes, it would be tempting to leave that image as is-- > (or, yikes, put that PVA on for the 3rd layer.) I do like that > palette you've used. Really nicely done. > > Now I'm going to go and try a print on some Rives I have here, sans > pre-shrinking and sizing. I'll let you know if it turns out to be a > total disaster. I'm still adding drops of grain alcohol to my mix, > for ease in coating (a little tip learned in Kerik's workshop)-- or > maybe that was also to reduce those little sparkles with gelatin > sizing? But that also seems to make things brush on very smoothly, > plus I like the smell of it. I have a whole bottle of it here, so I > have to use it somehow. ;) > > Diana From zphoto at montana.net Mon Mar 22 17:44:59 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (zphoto at montana.net) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:44:59 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: pre-shrinking and PVA size Message-ID: <4ba7ac9b.7f8.1d7c.1093@montana.net> Thanks so much for this info, Henry! And you even measured.. My prints are too big to get away without preshrinking, plus I do not find that step horrible. I, too, found that the paper laid flatter with PVA vs. gelatin for some reason. Interesting the difference in shrinkage between the papers.... Chris On Monday 03/22/2010 at 9:23 am, Henry Rattle wrote: > Just finished some trials with PVA size on Saunders Waterford (300g > hot-pressed) and Fabriano Artistico (300g CP, traditional white). > Starting > with virgin (not preshrunk) paper, the sequence was size, then (coat, > dry, > expose, 1 hour in water at about 20C, develop with spray, dry) for > each of > three coats of gum/pigment. > > In passing, I measured shrinkage. After the treatment above, the FA > shrank > 0% in one dimension and 1.1% in the other (across the 12x9 sheets I > was > using). The Waterford was 0.4% in one dimension and 1.2% in the other. > > My normal print size is about 9x7 inches, so a 1.1% shrinkage on the > short > dimension puts me about 0.8 mm (sorry for mixed units) out of register > at > the top and bottom edges of the print, assuming I register for the > centre. > Whether this matters to you depends on the subject matter, I guess - > but I > think I'll continue to preshrink my paper, though not in hot water. > > As to the Gamblin PVA size, I was very pleased. I coated successive 3 > inch > wide strips of each single sheet with full-strength, 1+1 and 1+2 PVA > size, > then coated and developed three-colour gum as above. > > The full-strength PVA, though I tried to coat thinly like Diana, had a > few > patches which were hard to coat. It also had the slightly plasticky > surface > that Diana objects to. > > At 1+1 both the Saunders and Fabriano coated easily and cleared very > well. > > At 1+2 the Fabriano cleared well and the Saunders not quite so well. > Both > cleared better than my control sheet, which was Saunders which had > been > brush sized with gelatine/formaldehyde. That was my standard till > today, but > from now on I'll be using FA/PVA. > > The other plus for the PVA was that there is far less of a fierce curl > on > the dried paper than you get with gelatine, either brushed or soaked. > Much > easier for the next coat. > > With best wishes > > Henry > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From kerik at kerik.com Mon Mar 22 17:48:52 2010 From: kerik at kerik.com (Kerik) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:48:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: pre-shrinking and PVA size In-Reply-To: <4ba7ac9b.7f8.1d7c.1093@montana.net> References: <4ba7ac9b.7f8.1d7c.1093@montana.net> Message-ID: <19746.192.146.217.50.1269280132.squirrel@www.kerik.com> Speaking of shrinking, I've found that the thinner versions of BFK (175 GSM, I think even though it's called Heavy) shrink less and are easier to register than the thicker versions (230 or 280 GSM?). Kerik www.kerik.com > Thanks so much for this info, Henry! And you even measured.. > > My prints are too big to get away without preshrinking, plus I do not > find that step horrible. > > I, too, found that the paper laid flatter with PVA vs. gelatin for > some reason. > > Interesting the difference in shrinkage between the papers.... > Chris > > > > On Monday 03/22/2010 at 9:23 am, Henry Rattle wrote: >> Just finished some trials with PVA size on Saunders Waterford (300g >> hot-pressed) and Fabriano Artistico (300g CP, traditional white). >> Starting >> with virgin (not preshrunk) paper, the sequence was size, then (coat, >> dry, >> expose, 1 hour in water at about 20C, develop with spray, dry) for >> each of >> three coats of gum/pigment. >> >> In passing, I measured shrinkage. After the treatment above, the FA >> shrank >> 0% in one dimension and 1.1% in the other (across the 12x9 sheets I >> was >> using). The Waterford was 0.4% in one dimension and 1.2% in the other. >> >> My normal print size is about 9x7 inches, so a 1.1% shrinkage on the >> short >> dimension puts me about 0.8 mm (sorry for mixed units) out of register >> at >> the top and bottom edges of the print, assuming I register for the >> centre. >> Whether this matters to you depends on the subject matter, I guess - >> but I >> think I'll continue to preshrink my paper, though not in hot water. >> >> As to the Gamblin PVA size, I was very pleased. I coated successive 3 >> inch >> wide strips of each single sheet with full-strength, 1+1 and 1+2 PVA >> size, >> then coated and developed three-colour gum as above. >> >> The full-strength PVA, though I tried to coat thinly like Diana, had a >> few >> patches which were hard to coat. It also had the slightly plasticky >> surface >> that Diana objects to. >> >> At 1+1 both the Saunders and Fabriano coated easily and cleared very >> well. >> >> At 1+2 the Fabriano cleared well and the Saunders not quite so well. >> Both >> cleared better than my control sheet, which was Saunders which had >> been >> brush sized with gelatine/formaldehyde. That was my standard till >> today, but >> from now on I'll be using FA/PVA. >> >> The other plus for the PVA was that there is far less of a fierce curl >> on >> the dried paper than you get with gelatine, either brushed or soaked. >> Much >> easier for the next coat. >> >> With best wishes >> >> Henry >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > -- Kerik www.kerik.com From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 22 18:01:58 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 14:01:58 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: <41667.192.146.217.50.1269279502.squirrel@www.kerik.com> References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net><3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600><66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com><87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600><66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600><4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com><1DD6FA6E-85C8-4674-895A-AD10EF974897@bellsouth.net><965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600> <01A06527-A684-4601-BBFE-ABBAA6F437D9@bellsouth.net> <529B984D825541CC99736206421F87F3@dell4600> <2B6C2847-1C48-4296-A304-3F732A64A51C@bellsouth.net> <41667.192.146.217.50.1269279502.squirrel@www.kerik.com> Message-ID: <79FE6098-BFF3-4832-A361-6318CA928972@bellsouth.net> Hey Kerik, You know, I think you're right. It does help ease the pain-- I really do like using it (on my prints, of course). I have this huge bottle of it, so I typically pour into a smaller bottle to make it easier to use, and I did that recently-- at the kitchen sink. I accidentally spilled some all over the counter, and then my husband came home. Of course, the entire kitchen smelled like a distillery. I think he's now very suspicious of my gum-printing methods. I just keep saying, "but this is how I was taught." ;) I'm glad you met Rita. She really is very nice. I love her work, too. She sometimes posts on this list, though I'm not sure if she's still subscribed. Diana On Mar 22, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Kerik wrote: > Diana, > > The added Everclear helps in both cases. And when things go bad, it > helps > ease the pain. :-) > > Kerik > > ps I met a friend of yours in Houston at Fotofest - Rita Bernstein. > Nice > lady! > From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 22 18:08:33 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 14:08:33 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: <725fa8581003221038w336cdfet554ce7fbbb6a786f@mail.gmail.com> References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy> <66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600> <4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com> <1DD6FA6E-85C8-4674-895A-AD10EF974897@bellsouth.net> <965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600> <01A06527-A684-4601-BBFE-ABBAA6F437D9@bellsouth.net> <529B984D825541CC99736206421F87F3@dell4600> <2B6C2847-1C48-4296-A304-3F732A64A51C@bellsouth.net> <725fa8581003221038w336cdfet554ce7fbbb6a786f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9A52E312-EBC3-489E-BC40-F48D121F9C39@bellsouth.net> I haven't had the coagulation problem. I use Everclear, grain alcohol-- you know, the stuff that makes you go blind if you drink it-- (or maybe that's only what Southern parents tell their children?)/ Seems to work fine for me. I think I did give the water a try once, but I probably added too much, because although the coat went on smoothly, it was very thin. Diana On Mar 22, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Loris Medici wrote: > Diana, I tried that with pure isopropanol and it was coagulating the > coating solution. Maybe I should try to find some pure ethanol... In > any case, as many have found out before, adding a little more water > often helps. > > Regards, > Loris. > From viapiano at pacbell.net Mon Mar 22 18:28:31 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:28:31 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com><388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600><4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com><1DD6FA6E-85C8-4674-895A-AD10EF974897@bellsouth.net><965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600><01A06527-A684-4601-BBFE-ABBAA6F437D9@bellsouth.net><529B984D825541CC99736206421F87F3@dell4600><2B6C2847-1C48-4296-A304-3F732A64A51C@bellsouth.net><725fa8581003221038w336cdfet554ce7fbbb6a786f@mail.gmail.com> <9A52E312-EBC3-489E-BC40-F48D121F9C39@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <195971EFA6194E94BF077303937D8CCD@dell4600> Actually, the water tip is on Sam's article on Unblinking Eye. His example prints there are smo-o-oth. He mixes gum and pigment to the color and intensity he wants and then adds water up to the amount equal to the gum/pigment. I added slightly less than that... p ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diana Bloomfield" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 11:08 AM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) >I haven't had the coagulation problem. I use Everclear, grain alcohol-- >you know, the stuff that makes you go blind if you drink it-- (or maybe >that's only what Southern parents tell their children?)/ Seems to work >fine for me. I think I did give the water a try once, but I probably >added too much, because although the coat went on smoothly, it was very >thin. > > Diana > On Mar 22, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Loris Medici wrote: > >> Diana, I tried that with pure isopropanol and it was coagulating the >> coating solution. Maybe I should try to find some pure ethanol... In >> any case, as many have found out before, adding a little more water >> often helps. >> >> Regards, >> Loris. >> > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Mon Mar 22 18:32:40 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (zphoto at montana.net) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:32:40 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) Message-ID: <4ba7b7c8.7f8.1c0c.1935@montana.net> Paul, Sam is using dry dichromate, though, correct, so the added water is just like mixing the dichromate 1:1 with gum/pigment as we do....or at least that is what Sam did while I was in grad school with him. Chris On Monday 03/22/2010 at 12:29 pm, Paul Viapiano wrote: > Actually, the water tip is on Sam's article on Unblinking Eye. His > example > prints there are smo-o-oth. He mixes gum and pigment to the color and > intensity he wants and then adds water up to the amount equal to the > gum/pigment. > > I added slightly less than that... > > p > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Diana Bloomfield" > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 11:08 AM > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) > > >> >> I haven't had the coagulation problem. I use Everclear, grain >> alcohol-- >> you know, the stuff that makes you go blind if you drink it-- (or >> maybe >> that's only what Southern parents tell their children?)/ Seems to >> work >> fine for me. I think I did give the water a try once, but I probably >> added too much, because although the coat went on smoothly, it was >> very >> thin. >> >> Diana >> On Mar 22, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Loris Medici wrote: >> >>> >>> Diana, I tried that with pure isopropanol and it was coagulating the >>> coating solution. Maybe I should try to find some pure ethanol... In >>> any case, as many have found out before, adding a little more water >>> often helps. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Loris. >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From viapiano at pacbell.net Mon Mar 22 18:46:34 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:46:34 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) References: <4ba7b7c8.7f8.1c0c.1935@montana.net> Message-ID: <5E93F16325284A35BB76F411DE21810C@dell4600> Aargh...never mind! p ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 11:32 AM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) > Paul, > Sam is using dry dichromate, though, correct, so the added water is just > like mixing the dichromate 1:1 with gum/pigment as we do....or at least > that is what Sam did while I was in grad school with him. > Chris > > > > On Monday 03/22/2010 at 12:29 pm, Paul Viapiano wrote: >> Actually, the water tip is on Sam's article on Unblinking Eye. His >> example >> prints there are smo-o-oth. He mixes gum and pigment to the color and >> intensity he wants and then adds water up to the amount equal to the >> gum/pigment. >> >> I added slightly less than that... >> >> p >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Diana Bloomfield" >> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 11:08 AM >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) >> >> >>> >>> I haven't had the coagulation problem. I use Everclear, grain >>> alcohol-- >>> you know, the stuff that makes you go blind if you drink it-- (or >>> maybe >>> that's only what Southern parents tell their children?)/ Seems to work >>> fine for me. I think I did give the water a try once, but I probably >>> added too much, because although the coat went on smoothly, it was very >>> thin. >>> >>> Diana >>> On Mar 22, 2010, at 1:38 PM, Loris Medici wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Diana, I tried that with pure isopropanol and it was coagulating the >>>> coating solution. Maybe I should try to find some pure ethanol... In >>>> any case, as many have found out before, adding a little more water >>>> often helps. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Loris. >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From viapiano at pacbell.net Mon Mar 22 19:17:52 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:17:52 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net><3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600><66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com><87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600><66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600><4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com><1DD6FA6E-85C8-4674-895A-AD10EF974897@bellsouth.net><965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600> Message-ID: <5C899B39E10F4F6388A3DFA5BF456C8C@dell4600> Daniel Smith Indigo, PB60 and Lamp Black PBk6... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Katharine Thayer" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 11:36 AM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) > Hey, looks great, and beautifully registered. A couple of > questions/comments: > > (1) I assume your indigo isn't really indigo (PB 66, a fugitive pigment > no longer used in any watercolor paints) but one of the mixtures of blue > (a different blue in each case) with lamp black that are currently > marketed under the name "indigo" by several paint manufacturers. Or are > you using powdered PB66? > > (2) It will be interesting to see what your final print looks like and > whether you're happy with it. I was looking at this as a finished > duotone, and found the ochre-brown cast very appealing, but now that I > realize (from another post that came in while I was writing this) that > you mean this to be the first two layers of an (unsaturated) tricolor > gum, I have different thoughts. It depends entirely on what effect > you're hoping to achieve, so this might work perfectly for what you want > to do, but in general if you're hoping to finish with a somewhat neutral > and somewhat realistic-ish color balance, then you'd want the overall > color cast of the print after the second layer to be roughly the color > complement of the third layer. But if that's not important to you, or if > you're intending an orangeish-brown final print (actually that might be > cool, depending) then it doesn't matter. > Katharine > > > > On Mar 22, 2010, at 8:27 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > >> Diana... >> >> I didn't size and I didn't preshrink. Paper is 10 x 11 inches, image >> size is approx 6 x 6 inches, give or take. >> >> Here's a scan after 2 layers, indigo and then raw sienna, waxed paper >> neg. >> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/viapiano/4454749196/ >> >> Please let me know what you think...anything at all! >> >> Thx..Paul >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diana Bloomfield" >> >> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" > photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> >> Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 9:18 AM >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) >> >> >> >>> Did I get that right, Paul-- that you didn't size with the Rives and >>> got no staining? (I now can't find your post from yesterday.) Do >>> you remember which of the many Rives papers you used? I'm also >>> surprised you didn't pre-shrink and had no registration problems. >>> Wow-- that would be great not not to have to deal with pre-shrinking. >>> Thanks. I'm gonna try that, too. :) >>> >>> Diana >>> On Mar 22, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Trevor Cunningham wrote: >>> >>> >>>> So, do you line all three-four negs up at once and then stick em with >>>> the pin? I'm trying to figure out which registration system i'd like >>>> to use. I found a good site that sells registration tabs and such >>>> (posted it several months back), but if the pins work, why fuss and >>>> spend the cash? Paul, could you post a shot or two of you reg system? >>>> >>>> Paul Viapiano wrote: >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From kthayer at pacifier.com Mon Mar 22 20:40:45 2010 From: kthayer at pacifier.com (Katharine Thayer) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:40:45 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: <5C899B39E10F4F6388A3DFA5BF456C8C@dell4600> References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net><3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600><66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com><87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600><66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600><4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com><1DD6FA6E-85C8-4674-895A-AD10EF974897@bellsouth.net><965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600> <5C899B39E10F4F6388A3DFA5BF456C8C@dell4600> Message-ID: Thanks; if you're interested, PB60 is indanthrone. On Mar 22, 2010, at 11:17 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > Daniel Smith Indigo, PB60 and Lamp Black PBk6... > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Katharine Thayer" > > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 11:36 AM > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) > > > >> Hey, looks great, and beautifully registered. A couple of >> questions/comments: >> >> (1) I assume your indigo isn't really indigo (PB 66, a fugitive >> pigment no longer used in any watercolor paints) but one of the >> mixtures of blue (a different blue in each case) with lamp black >> that are currently marketed under the name "indigo" by several >> paint manufacturers. Or are you using powdered PB66? >> >> (2) It will be interesting to see what your final print looks >> like and whether you're happy with it. I was looking at this as >> a finished duotone, and found the ochre-brown cast very >> appealing, but now that I realize (from another post that came in >> while I was writing this) that you mean this to be the first two >> layers of an (unsaturated) tricolor gum, I have different >> thoughts. It depends entirely on what effect you're hoping to >> achieve, so this might work perfectly for what you want to do, >> but in general if you're hoping to finish with a somewhat neutral >> and somewhat realistic-ish color balance, then you'd want the >> overall color cast of the print after the second layer to be >> roughly the color complement of the third layer. But if that's >> not important to you, or if you're intending an orangeish-brown >> final print (actually that might be cool, depending) then it >> doesn't matter. >> Katharine >> >> >> >> On Mar 22, 2010, at 8:27 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: >> >> >>> Diana... >>> >>> I didn't size and I didn't preshrink. Paper is 10 x 11 inches, >>> image size is approx 6 x 6 inches, give or take. >>> >>> Here's a scan after 2 layers, indigo and then raw sienna, waxed >>> paper neg. >>> >>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/viapiano/4454749196/ >>> >>> Please let me know what you think...anything at all! >>> >>> Thx..Paul >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diana Bloomfield" >>> >>> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" >> photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> >>> Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 9:18 AM >>> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Did I get that right, Paul-- that you didn't size with the >>>> Rives and got no staining? (I now can't find your post from >>>> yesterday.) Do you remember which of the many Rives papers you >>>> used? I'm also surprised you didn't pre-shrink and had no >>>> registration problems. Wow-- that would be great not not to >>>> have to deal with pre-shrinking. Thanks. I'm gonna try that, >>>> too. :) >>>> >>>> Diana >>>> On Mar 22, 2010, at 11:58 AM, Trevor Cunningham wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> So, do you line all three-four negs up at once and then stick >>>>> em with the pin? I'm trying to figure out which registration >>>>> system i'd like to use. I found a good site that sells >>>>> registration tabs and such (posted it several months back), >>>>> but if the pins work, why fuss and spend the cash? Paul, >>>>> could you post a shot or two of you reg system? >>>>> >>>>> Paul Viapiano wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > From edw4 at mindspring.com Mon Mar 22 19:50:37 2010 From: edw4 at mindspring.com (John Edwards) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 12:50:37 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: <14823211.1269279507914.JavaMail.root@n27> References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net><3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600><66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com><87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600><66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600><4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com> <1DD6FA6E-85C8-4674-895A-AD10EF974897@bellsouth.net> <965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600> <14823211.1269279507914.JavaMail.root@n27> Message-ID: <4BA7CA0D.3010907@mindspring.com> Although I don't join in, I do pick up useful info from this group, but... c'mon, Paul - ten emails in 24 hours ? I don't want to drop out or block you. - just sign me Clogged From jeremydmoore at gmail.com Mon Mar 22 20:13:37 2010 From: jeremydmoore at gmail.com (Jeremy Moore) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 15:13:37 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] OT: Limit to # of emails? WAS Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) Message-ID: <66575de71003221313w10c6976l3eaff1ae0eae16c7@mail.gmail.com> I don't care how many emails anyone sends. Yes, maybe Paul could have made one post detailing the progress when he finished the entire print, but you can tell he's EXCITED and that excitement is infective--look at the new discussion he has spurred on! I use GMail and have any email coming from alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.or tagged as "alt-photo" and are filtered out of my inbox into a different folder so I don't have any problems with this. I don't see any difference between 10 email from one person or 10 emails from 10 different people as they are all alt-related and I don't want to shut down anyone's education or engagement in the alt community. I assume you're either "clogged" due to the quantity of email in your inbox or you're "clogged" from a quantity of emails from Paul. If it's the quantity from the list then what do you do when we're just very list-active? I know Judy and Katherine and Christina have all posted >10 emails in a 24 hr period (I just searched my archive) and no one complained then. Finally, you have the option with the new list to get a digest--a collection of all emails sent once daily. I'd suggest using the technology available to ease the problem on your end as opposed to curtailing possible discussion. One man's opinion, -Jeremy- On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 2:50 PM, John Edwards wrote: > Although I don't join in, I do pick up useful info from this group, > > but... > c'mon, Paul - ten emails in 24 hours ? > I don't want to drop out or block you. > > - just sign me > Clogged > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From kthayer at pacifier.com Mon Mar 22 21:31:34 2010 From: kthayer at pacifier.com (Katharine Thayer) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:31:34 -0800 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: <4BA7CA0D.3010907@mindspring.com> References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net><3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600><66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com><87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600><66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600><4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com> <1DD6FA6E-85C8-4674-895A-AD10EF974897@bellsouth.net> <965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600> <14823211.1269279507914.JavaMail.root@n27> <4BA7CA0D.3010907@mindspring.com> Message-ID: A lot of different people asked him questions; why shouldn't he respond with a short answer to each? If you don't like getting a lot of alt-photo emails in a day, then maybe you should change your subscription to the "digest" option so you only get one (big) email each day from this list. On Mar 22, 2010, at 11:50 AM, John Edwards wrote: > Although I don't join in, I do pick up useful info from this group, > > but... > c'mon, Paul - ten emails in 24 hours ? > I don't want to drop out or block you. > > - just sign me > Clogged > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > From edw4 at mindspring.com Mon Mar 22 20:34:12 2010 From: edw4 at mindspring.com (John Edwards) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:34:12 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: OT: Limit to # of emails? WAS Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: <12170552.1269288994732.JavaMail.root@n27> References: <12170552.1269288994732.JavaMail.root@n27> Message-ID: <4BA7D444.80908@mindspring.com> Thank you - I was not aware that the new version included a digest option. No offense meant, Paul - excitement is to be encouraged. - (The Original, not the haircut guy) John Edwards (and, btw, I have a fairly complete set of Judy's Journals still on my bookshelf, and may someday understand at least part of them) Jeremy Moore wrote: > I don't care how many emails anyone sends. Yes, maybe Paul could have made > one post detailing the progress when he finished the entire print, but you > can tell he's EXCITED and that excitement is infective--look at the new > discussion he has spurred on! I use GMail and have any email coming > from alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.or tagged as "alt-photo" and > are filtered out of my inbox into a different folder so I don't have any > problems with this. > > I don't see any difference between 10 email from one person or 10 emails > from 10 different people as they are all alt-related and I don't want to > shut down anyone's education or engagement in the alt community. I assume > you're either "clogged" due to the quantity of email in your inbox or you're > "clogged" from a quantity of emails from Paul. If it's the quantity from the > list then what do you do when we're just very list-active? I know Judy and > Katherine and Christina have all posted >10 emails in a 24 hr period (I just > searched my archive) and no one complained then. > > Finally, you have the option with the new list to get a digest--a collection > of all emails sent once daily. I'd suggest using the technology available to > ease the problem on your end as opposed to curtailing possible discussion. > > One man's opinion, > -Jeremy- > > On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 2:50 PM, John Edwards wrote: > > >> Although I don't join in, I do pick up useful info from this group, >> >> but... >> c'mon, Paul - ten emails in 24 hours ? >> I don't want to drop out or block you. >> >> - just sign me >> Clogged >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 22 20:53:31 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:53:31 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: <4BA7CA0D.3010907@mindspring.com> References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net><3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600><66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com><87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600><66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600><4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com> <1DD6FA6E-85C8-4674-895A-AD10EF974897@bellsouth.net> <965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600> <14823211.1269279507914.JavaMail.root@n27> <4BA7CA0D.3010907@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Oh-- I saw this address in my inbox, and thought-- wow-- what's the scandal now, and why is John Edwards writing to me?? I bet you get that a lot. Or, you know, not. I admit I was kind of disappointed when I realized it was just a complaint. I think Paul's posts have been really useful and informative. Who counts number of posts people make?? On my MacBook, I have something called a "delete" key. It's incredibly useful. I bet you have one, too. ;) Diana On Mar 22, 2010, at 3:50 PM, John Edwards wrote: > Although I don't join in, I do pick up useful info from this group, > > but... > c'mon, Paul - ten emails in 24 hours ? > I don't want to drop out or block you. > > - just sign me > Clogged > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From keith.gerling at gmail.com Mon Mar 22 20:54:30 2010 From: keith.gerling at gmail.com (Keith Gerling) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 15:54:30 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: <4BA7CA0D.3010907@mindspring.com> References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy> <87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600> <66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600> <4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com> <1DD6FA6E-85C8-4674-895A-AD10EF974897@bellsouth.net> <965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600> <14823211.1269279507914.JavaMail.root@n27> <4BA7CA0D.3010907@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <98766a901003221354u487845afs1b97d6f6b1c5021e@mail.gmail.com> Sheesh! What the? On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 2:50 PM, John Edwards wrote: > Although I don't join in, I do pick up useful info from this group, > > but... > c'mon, Paul - ten emails in 24 hours ? > I don't want to drop out or block you. > > - just sign me > Clogged > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 22 21:47:15 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 17:47:15 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: <5C899B39E10F4F6388A3DFA5BF456C8C@dell4600> References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net><3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600><66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com><87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600><66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600><4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com><1DD6FA6E-85C8-4674-895A-AD10EF974897@bellsouth.net><965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600> <5C899B39E10F4F6388A3DFA5BF456C8C@dell4600> Message-ID: <12F03994-823C-473F-909B-94571991D4DF@bellsouth.net> Hey Paul. At the risk of racking up too many posts here-- I just wanted to let you know that I took one of my pieces of Rives, right out of the flat file (no pre-shrinking or sizing), and I've done only one coat now-- but there was no staining, though I did have to leave it in the water far longer than I normally do. I'll let you know what happens when I try a second coat. Even though there's no staining with this one coat-- I do miss having that slight sheen from the PVA, so I might just stay with the PVA-- but I'm gonna finish this one out for any registration/staining problems with subsequent layers. Thanks again for your updates/results. Diana On Mar 22, 2010, at 3:17 PM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > >> >> On Mar 22, 2010, at 8:27 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: >> >>> Diana... >>> >>> I didn't size and I didn't preshrink. Paper is 10 x 11 inches, >>> image size is approx 6 x 6 inches, give or take. >>> >>> Here's a scan after 2 layers, indigo and then raw sienna, waxed >>> paper neg. >>> >>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/viapiano/4454749196/ >>> >>> Please let me know what you think...anything at all! >>> >>> Thx..Paul >>> >>> From ender100 at aol.com Mon Mar 22 21:51:00 2010 From: ender100 at aol.com (ender100) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:51:00 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: <12F03994-823C-473F-909B-94571991D4DF@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <687D2BE8.CDF0.4EC3.BD1E.E4849D62CF4E@aol.com> OK, Diana, that's your last post for today, you are now cut off hehehehehehe -- Best Wishes, Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negatives PDNPrint Forum @ Yahoo Groups Mark Nelson Photography On Mar 22, 2010, at 4:47:15 PM, "Diana Bloomfield" wrote: Hey Paul. At the risk of racking up too many posts here-- I just wanted to let you know that I took one of my pieces of Rives, right out of the flat file (no pre-shrinking or sizing), and I've done only one coat now-- but there was no staining, though I did have to leave it in the water far longer than I normally do. I'll let you know what happens when I try a second coat. Even though there's no staining with this one coat-- I do miss having that slight sheen from the PVA, so I might just stay with the PVA-- but I'm gonna finish this one out for any registration/staining problems with subsequent layers. Thanks again for your updates/results. Diana From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 22 21:54:33 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 17:54:33 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: <687D2BE8.CDF0.4EC3.BD1E.E4849D62CF4E@aol.com> References: <687D2BE8.CDF0.4EC3.BD1E.E4849D62CF4E@aol.com> Message-ID: Damn. I knew somebody might be counting. :0 On Mar 22, 2010, at 5:51 PM, ender100 wrote: > OK, Diana, that's your last post for today, you are now cut off > hehehehehehe > -- > Best Wishes, > > Mark Nelson > Precision Digital Negatives > PDNPrint Forum @ Yahoo Groups > > Mark Nelson Photography > > > On Mar 22, 2010, at 4:47:15 PM, "Diana Bloomfield" > wrote: > > Hey Paul. At the risk of racking up too many posts here-- I just > wanted to let you know that I took one of my pieces of Rives, right > out of the flat file (no pre-shrinking or sizing), and I've done only > one coat now-- but there was no staining, though I did have to leave > it in the water far longer than I normally do. I'll let you know > what happens when I try a second coat. Even though there's no > staining with this one coat-- I do miss having that slight sheen from > the PVA, so I might just stay with the PVA-- but I'm gonna finish this > one out for any registration/staining problems with subsequent layers. > > Thanks again for your updates/results. > > Diana > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From viapiano at pacbell.net Mon Mar 22 22:07:58 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 15:07:58 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net><3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600><66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com><87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600><66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600><4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com><1DD6FA6E-85C8-4674-895A-AD10EF974897@bellsouth.net><965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600><5C899B39E10F4F6388A3DFA5BF456C8C@dell4600> <12F03994-823C-473F-909B-94571991D4DF@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: Diana, Even when I use Fab EW leftover from pt/pd printing, I notice no stain until the 3rd layer, which is actually its 4th soak (first soak is in oxalic acid solution to prepare for that process). Even Keith Taylor, who bonds his paper to aluminum and does not size, is able to print 3 rich tricolor layers and not experience stain. BTW, I printed a red layer on my print but didn't expose quite long enough, the sun is hazy today. So all I got was a slightly warmer color overall and still perfect registration, but no stain. I may continue to press my luck with another layer and maybe even more posts ;-) Thanks all... Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diana Bloomfield" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 2:47 PM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) > Hey Paul. At the risk of racking up too many posts here-- I just wanted > to let you know that I took one of my pieces of Rives, right out of the > flat file (no pre-shrinking or sizing), and I've done only one coat now-- > but there was no staining, though I did have to leave it in the water far > longer than I normally do. I'll let you know what happens when I try a > second coat. Even though there's no staining with this one coat-- I do > miss having that slight sheen from the PVA, so I might just stay with the > PVA-- but I'm gonna finish this one out for any registration/staining > problems with subsequent layers. > > Thanks again for your updates/results. > > Diana > > On Mar 22, 2010, at 3:17 PM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > >> >>> >>> On Mar 22, 2010, at 8:27 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: >>> >>>> Diana... >>>> >>>> I didn't size and I didn't preshrink. Paper is 10 x 11 inches, image >>>> size is approx 6 x 6 inches, give or take. >>>> >>>> Here's a scan after 2 layers, indigo and then raw sienna, waxed paper >>>> neg. >>>> >>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/viapiano/4454749196/ >>>> >>>> Please let me know what you think...anything at all! >>>> >>>> Thx..Paul >>>> >>>> > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Mon Mar 22 22:20:54 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 18:20:54 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net><3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600><66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com><87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600><66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600><4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com><1DD6FA6E-85C8-4674-895A-AD10EF974897@bellsouth.net><965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600><5C899B39E10F4F6388A3DFA5BF456C8C@dell4600> <12F03994-823C-473F-909B-94571991D4DF@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <52D23296-92FC-412A-A8DC-AC5FA766B573@bellsouth.net> Thanks, Paul. (I'm trying to get up to at least 10 posts here today. Can you tell?) Your most exciting result is not having to pre-shrink. My one coat is drying now, so I'm interested to see how that works for me-- in terms of registration. I do like the way a paper looks and feels without pre-shrinking first, though. I think the resulting images are ultimately sharper, too. Diana On Mar 22, 2010, at 6:07 PM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > Diana, > > Even when I use Fab EW leftover from pt/pd printing, I notice no > stain until the 3rd layer, which is actually its 4th soak (first > soak is in oxalic acid solution to prepare for that process). > > Even Keith Taylor, who bonds his paper to aluminum and does not > size, is able to print 3 rich tricolor layers and not experience > stain. > > BTW, I printed a red layer on my print but didn't expose quite long > enough, the sun is hazy today. So all I got was a slightly warmer > color overall and still perfect registration, but no stain. > > I may continue to press my luck with another layer and maybe even > more posts ;-) > > Thanks all... > > Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diana Bloomfield" > > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 2:47 PM > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) > > >> Hey Paul. At the risk of racking up too many posts here-- I just >> wanted to let you know that I took one of my pieces of Rives, >> right out of the flat file (no pre-shrinking or sizing), and I've >> done only one coat now-- but there was no staining, though I did >> have to leave it in the water far longer than I normally do. >> I'll let you know what happens when I try a second coat. Even >> though there's no staining with this one coat-- I do miss having >> that slight sheen from the PVA, so I might just stay with the >> PVA-- but I'm gonna finish this one out for any registration/ >> staining problems with subsequent layers. >> >> Thanks again for your updates/results. >> >> Diana >> >> On Mar 22, 2010, at 3:17 PM, Paul Viapiano wrote: >> >>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 22, 2010, at 8:27 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: >>>> >>>>> Diana... >>>>> >>>>> I didn't size and I didn't preshrink. Paper is 10 x 11 inches, >>>>> image size is approx 6 x 6 inches, give or take. >>>>> >>>>> Here's a scan after 2 layers, indigo and then raw sienna, >>>>> waxed paper neg. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/viapiano/4454749196/ >>>>> >>>>> Please let me know what you think...anything at all! >>>>> >>>>> Thx..Paul >>>>> >>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From edw4 at mindspring.com Mon Mar 22 23:05:10 2010 From: edw4 at mindspring.com (John Edwards) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:05:10 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: <31782850.1269295012065.JavaMail.root@n27> References: <31782850.1269295012065.JavaMail.root@n27> Message-ID: <4BA7F7A6.1070400@mindspring.com> OK, I get the message - 'bye, y'all. - JE ender100 wrote: > OK, Diana, that's your last post for today, you are now cut off > hehehehehehe > -- > Best Wishes, > > Mark Nelson > Precision Digital Negatives > PDNPrint Forum @ Yahoo Groups > > Mark Nelson Photography > > > On Mar 22, 2010, at 4:47:15 PM, "Diana Bloomfield" > wrote: > > Hey Paul. At the risk of racking up too many posts here-- I just > wanted to let you know that I took one of my pieces of Rives, right > out of the flat file (no pre-shrinking or sizing), and I've done only > one coat now-- but there was no staining, though I did have to leave > it in the water far longer than I normally do. I'll let you know > what happens when I try a second coat. Even though there's no > staining with this one coat-- I do miss having that slight sheen from > the PVA, so I might just stay with the PVA-- but I'm gonna finish this > one out for any registration/staining problems with subsequent layers. > > Thanks again for your updates/results. > > Diana > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > From edw4 at mindspring.com Tue Mar 23 02:37:33 2010 From: edw4 at mindspring.com (John Edwards) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 19:37:33 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net><3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600><66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com><87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600><66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600><4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com><1DD6FA6E-85C8-4674-895A-AD10EF974897@bellsouth.net><965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600><5C899B39E10F4F6388A3DFA5BF456C8C@dell4600> <12F03994-823C-473F-909B-94571991D4DF@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4BA8296D.8020806@mindspring.com> Please do - I DO learn from your posts. - John the lurker Paul Viapiano wrote: > I may continue to press my luck with another layer and maybe even more > posts ;-) > Thanks all... > Paul From zphoto at montana.net Tue Mar 23 13:42:14 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 07:42:14 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] new digital sensor Message-ID: http://www.eetimes.com/news/design/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=224000253 What do you all think? Are all our current digital cameras going to become obsolete soon? I yearn for back in the day when buying a Mamiya 7II meant you'd have a camera for life... Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com From huib at huibsmeets.com Tue Mar 23 14:38:31 2010 From: huib at huibsmeets.com (Huib Smeets) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 15:38:31 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: new digital sensor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Maybe they coat this stuff on acetate, you expose it in your Mamiya II and then pull it through a scanner that reads out the charge after exposure to form an image. Op Di, 23 maart, 2010 14:42, schreef Christina Anderson: > http://www.eetimes.com/news/design/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=224000253 > > What do you all think? Are all our current digital cameras going to become > obsolete soon? > > I yearn for back in the day when buying a Mamiya 7II meant you'd have a > camera for life... > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From alt.list at albertonovo.it Tue Mar 23 15:18:52 2010 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 16:18:52 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: a new old process In-Reply-To: <007701cac825$ec633430$c5299c90$@com> References: <20100319174950.17932.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <007701cac825$ec633430$c5299c90$@com> Message-ID: <20100323151852.30595.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> Just for sharing what I have found: the name of the method is pannotype (almost equal to the Italian pannotipo), and there are some information and even pictures in Internet: 1853 published by the company Wulff + Co. only used until 1859/60 since the material is very unstable (photographic layer easily gets cracked). *displaced by the ferrotype process. general process: collodion negative on blackened waxed cloth to which the photographic emulsion is transferred after it got developed, separation of the collodion in a bath of sulfuric acid (1:20) (from http://www.photographicnegatives.net/index.php/WET_COLLODION_PROCESS) http://notesonphotographs.eastmanhouse.org/index.php?title=Pannotype images: http://ladysrepositorymuseum.blogspot.com/2009/11/amazing-many-of-you-know-t hat-i-have.html http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=pannotype&w=all&s=int Alberto > Hi Alberto > > Frederick Scott Archer patented a method of stripping collodion images from > glass so they could be transferred to other substrates such as cloth and > leather. I've been doing some research on Archer and a few weeks ago saw an > example on cloth at The National Media Museum, Bradford, UK which is thought > to be by Archer. As far as I know from talking to the curators this is the > only example in The NMM and Royal Photographic Society collections so wasn't > popular for some reason, maybe because there wasn't a need for it or was > difficult to do. > > John. > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of > Alberto Novo > Sent: Friday, March 19, 2010 5:50 PM > To: AltList > Subject: [alt-photo] a new old process > > I have found for the first time that there was a process called "pannotipo" > in Italian, which translation could be "clothtype", made of a collodion > print on a dark oilcloth. That is, a tintipe on cloth. > Have you never heard about it? What is its true name in Englilsh? > > Alberto From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 23 16:53:21 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 12:53:21 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: new digital sensor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, I have a Mamiya 6, and every time I use it, I am consistently impressed with what an incredible camera it is. I don't think they missed a trick in the making of it. It just seems to have everything. I'd be happy to use that until the end of time-- as long as somebody keeps making 120 film. I do hate that digital cameras seem to be like cars-- as soon as you remove them from the store (or drive them off the lot), already they're out-of-date and beginning their rapid depreciation, it seems. I use my digital camera, most especially for paid jobs, because it's quicker and there's no CYA or guesswork-- but I have to admit, I still love those film cameras. As long as people keep making film, they can do whatever they want to make us want, or need, the next best thing (and spend yet more money). Diana On Mar 23, 2010, at 9:42 AM, Christina Anderson wrote: > http://www.eetimes.com/news/design/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=224000253 > > What do you all think? Are all our current digital cameras going to > become obsolete soon? > > I yearn for back in the day when buying a Mamiya 7II meant you'd > have a camera for life... > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From walter23 at gmail.com Tue Mar 23 17:14:16 2010 From: walter23 at gmail.com (walter) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 10:14:16 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] The # of emails issue Message-ID: <77502711003231014k4e6e21aerb570325827d7e6ff@mail.gmail.com> Yes, I get my alt-photo-process-list mails in digest form, and it's a great way to do it. You lag behind by a couple of hours but you only get one or two emails per day, no matter how much activity is on the list. Keeps my inbox from being too cluttered (and keeps distractions down). I don't think I've been on a mailing list where I haven't gotten it in digest form for years now. It's just way nicer. > Finally, you have the option with the new list to get a digest--a collection of all emails sent once daily. I'd suggest using the technology available to ease the problem on your end as opposed to curtailing possible discussion. From jstrain at iquest.net Tue Mar 23 17:24:56 2010 From: jstrain at iquest.net (jstrain at iquest.net) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 13:24:56 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: new digital sensor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100323132456.19784jfiph1oc0is@webmail.iquest.net> Yup. I still have my Mamiya 7. Sharpest lenses on the planet. Hope someone keeps making quality 120 film. My best sellers have all been from the Mamiya with the exception of one that was from my 8x10 (and a Goerz Dagor lens). Jim Quoting Diana Bloomfield : > Well, I have a Mamiya 6, and every time I use it, I am consistently > impressed with what an incredible camera it is. I don't think they > missed a trick in the making of it. It just seems to have > everything. I'd be happy to use that until the end of time-- as > long as somebody keeps making 120 film. > > I do hate that digital cameras seem to be like cars-- as soon as you > remove them from the store (or drive them off the lot), already > they're out-of-date and beginning their rapid depreciation, it > seems. I use my digital camera, most especially for paid jobs, > because it's quicker and there's no CYA or guesswork-- but I have to > admit, I still love those film cameras. As long as people keep > making film, they can do whatever they want to make us want, or > need, the next best thing (and spend yet more money). > > Diana > On Mar 23, 2010, at 9:42 AM, Christina Anderson wrote: > >> http://www.eetimes.com/news/design/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=224000253 >> >> What do you all think? Are all our current digital cameras going to >> become obsolete soon? >> >> I yearn for back in the day when buying a Mamiya 7II meant you'd >> have a camera for life... >> Chris >> >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From photographeur at nerdshack.com Tue Mar 23 17:32:08 2010 From: photographeur at nerdshack.com (etienne garbaux) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 13:32:08 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: new digital sensor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20100323173219.EAF35157554@karen.lavabit.com> >I'd be happy to use that until the end of time-- as long as somebody >keeps making 120 film. Shoot fast. According to friends in the industry, 120 film from reliable suppliers is unlikely to survive another decade. Even 35mm film from reliable suppliers may be gone by then. Best regards, etienne From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 23 17:41:29 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 13:41:29 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: new digital sensor In-Reply-To: <20100323173219.EAF35157554@karen.lavabit.com> References: <20100323173219.EAF35157554@karen.lavabit.com> Message-ID: Well, I hope your friends are wrong. If so, I guess I'll have to go the way of "unreliable suppliers." ;) 35mm film disappear, though. That's fine with me. I have to believe there are enough people who would want 120 and large format film, that some small supplier will still make it. Diana On Mar 23, 2010, at 1:32 PM, etienne garbaux wrote: > >> I'd be happy to use that until the end of time-- as long as >> somebody keeps making 120 film. > > Shoot fast. According to friends in the industry, 120 film from > reliable suppliers is unlikely to survive another decade. Even 35mm > film from reliable suppliers may be gone by then. > > Best regards, > > etienne > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From jeremydmoore at gmail.com Tue Mar 23 17:55:01 2010 From: jeremydmoore at gmail.com (Jeremy Moore) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 12:55:01 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: new digital sensor In-Reply-To: <20100323173219.EAF35157554@karen.lavabit.com> References: <20100323173219.EAF35157554@karen.lavabit.com> Message-ID: <66575de71003231055s40f923ak50595515d9547a5c@mail.gmail.com> I wouldn't say "shoot fast", but "shoot a lot." If there's a sustainable market there will be film. It may not be on the massive scale of Kodak, but there will be film. Hell, you can still get your buggy whip repaired: http://jedediahsbuggywhip.com/ -Jeremy- On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 12:32 PM, etienne garbaux < photographeur at nerdshack.com> wrote: > > > Shoot fast. According to friends in the industry, 120 film from reliable > suppliers is unlikely to survive another decade. Even 35mm film from > reliable suppliers may be gone by then. > > Best regards, > > etienne > > From kerik at kerik.com Tue Mar 23 18:01:43 2010 From: kerik at kerik.com (Kerik) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 11:01:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: new digital sensor In-Reply-To: <66575de71003231055s40f923ak50595515d9547a5c@mail.gmail.com> References: <20100323173219.EAF35157554@karen.lavabit.com> <66575de71003231055s40f923ak50595515d9547a5c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <25868.192.146.217.50.1269367303.squirrel@www.kerik.com> Jeremy I don't even want to know why you have a buggy whip. :-p Kerik > I wouldn't say "shoot fast", but "shoot a lot." If there's a sustainable > market there will be film. It may not be on the massive scale of Kodak, > but there will be film. Hell, you can still get your buggy whip repaired: > http://jedediahsbuggywhip.com/ > > -Jeremy- From jeremydmoore at gmail.com Tue Mar 23 18:29:47 2010 From: jeremydmoore at gmail.com (Jeremy Moore) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 13:29:47 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: new digital sensor In-Reply-To: <25868.192.146.217.50.1269367303.squirrel@www.kerik.com> References: <20100323173219.EAF35157554@karen.lavabit.com> <66575de71003231055s40f923ak50595515d9547a5c@mail.gmail.com> <25868.192.146.217.50.1269367303.squirrel@www.kerik.com> Message-ID: <66575de71003231129u18f4423ev7c8944c049252395@mail.gmail.com> Hahaha, I don't, I just remember the buggy whip as David Goldfarb's oft-used example of a technologically-bypassed niche market. The buggy whip seems like a great prop to match with wet plate.... On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Kerik wrote: > Jeremy I don't even want to know why you have a buggy whip. > > :-p > > Kerik > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From photographeur at nerdshack.com Tue Mar 23 18:44:23 2010 From: photographeur at nerdshack.com (etienne garbaux) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 14:44:23 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: new digital sensor In-Reply-To: References: <20100323173219.EAF35157554@karen.lavabit.com> Message-ID: <20100323184659.EB86715754A@karen.lavabit.com> >I have to believe there are enough people who would want 120 and >large format film, that some small supplier will still make it. As with all obsolete technologies, once an item is no longer in sufficient demand to justify large-scale production, it will no longer be produced using state-of-the-art facilities, techniques, machinery, and quality control. Unfortunately, film is very demanding in all of these regards and does not lend itself well to production by small suppliers. So there may be product available when the big boys quit, but it will be made on old, out-of-date equipment in poor repair by people who cannot afford to do proper QC -- and it will be very expensive because of the anti-economies of small scale. So you may be able to buy a roll of semi-fogged, mis-slit film full of bubbles and dust for $30, but it won't be film like we know it. As for 120 and sheets being the last bastions of film -- recall that Kodachrome was available in 35mm long after 120 and sheets were gone. There's so little sheet film being used today that most makers only do occasional runs every several years. I think it's safe to say that 35mm will be the last format standing for film as we know it. One of these days, someone may make a digital sensor package that fits into existing roll-film cameras. Best regards, etienne From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 23 19:07:49 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 15:07:49 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: new digital sensor In-Reply-To: <20100323184659.EB86715754A@karen.lavabit.com> References: <20100323173219.EAF35157554@karen.lavabit.com> <20100323184659.EB86715754A@karen.lavabit.com> Message-ID: Well, you're just full of doom and gloom here, etienne. I hope you're wrong. I do remember that guy, online, who sold the odd size sheet film that you couldn't find anywhere else-- can't remember his name now, nor the name of the place. I'm sure somebody here knows. But I bought a few boxes of his sheet film for a panoramic pinhole camera I made, and he was definitely a small supplier, keeping a relatively small group of people happy. I'm not sure where he got the film, but it was fine film-- never a problem as far as I could tell. And a year or so ago, someone gave me several boxes of 4x5 color film, some of which was dated in the mid-1970's, and some from the mid- 1980's. I'm not even sure where it was kept (if refrigerated), but I said I'd take it off his hands. And that film has been great. The only difference I saw was that the colors weren't as intense, which I actually liked. But I have high hopes that someone will be out there supplying 120 and large format film, for a long time. Meanwhile, if things get really bad, as you're promising, I guess I can stick with my now out-of-date and old-fashioned Canon 5D, or just make alt process photograms. I like those, too. :) Diana On Mar 23, 2010, at 2:44 PM, etienne garbaux wrote: > >> I have to believe there are enough people who would want 120 and large format film, that some small supplier will still make it. > > As with all obsolete technologies, once an item is no longer in sufficient demand to justify large-scale production, it will no longer be produced using state-of-the-art facilities, techniques, machinery, and quality control. Unfortunately, film is very demanding in all of these regards and does not lend itself well to production by small suppliers. So there may be product available when the big boys quit, but it will be made on old, out-of-date equipment in poor repair by people who cannot afford to do proper QC -- and it will be very expensive because of the anti-economies of small scale. So you may be able to buy a roll of semi-fogged, mis-slit film full of bubbles and dust for $30, but it won't be film like we know it. > > As for 120 and sheets being the last bastions of film -- recall that Kodachrome was available in 35mm long after 120 and sheets were gone. There's so little sheet film being used today that most makers only do occasional runs every several years. I think it's safe to say that 35mm will be the last format standing for film as we know it. > > One of these days, someone may make a digital sensor package that fits into existing roll-film cameras. > > Best regards, > > etienne > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Tue Mar 23 21:24:03 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 23:24:03 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: new digital sensor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <725fa8581003231424w7763ac47t125f3afe5b1d404a@mail.gmail.com> I don't understand that conceptualization; I mean, if it was enough / satisfactory when you bought it, why it doesn't remain so? I'm still very happy with my Sony A700 (which was announced on late 2007) and I think it will make me happy as long as I use it. (In fact, it made me quit shooting 35mm day-to-day; currently I only shoot digital or 120 film - I very seldom shoot 35mm...) The problem with digital cameras is they have a relatively short useful life; 4-5 years or so, before they cause you problems or until you can't find genuine consumables - such as batteries and/or spare parts. (I imagine Judy yelling "planned obsolescence!" right now - hehehehe...) I still have a Zorki 4K with nice Jupiter 8, 9, 12 lenses and a turret finder, all older than I am, all in good shape, which I know that they will serve me well in case I decide to use them. (As they did back when I was actually using them.) Unfortunately you don't have that with electronic gear - that's my real problem with digital cameras... (Maybe that was exactly what you were referring to.) Regards, Loris. 2010/3/23 Diana Bloomfield : > ... > I do hate that digital cameras seem to be like cars-- as soon as you remove > them from the store (or drive them off the lot), ?already they're > out-of-date and beginning their rapid depreciation, it seems. > ... From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 23 21:35:58 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 17:35:58 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: new digital sensor In-Reply-To: <725fa8581003231424w7763ac47t125f3afe5b1d404a@mail.gmail.com> References: <725fa8581003231424w7763ac47t125f3afe5b1d404a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1D628AE0-6E83-47ED-9BBC-CDD8CE70B48E@bellsouth.net> Yes, Loris; that was my point. My Canon 5D works perfectly well for me, but they keep coming out with something newer and better, with more pixels and more bells and whistles-- and so-- we're either convinced we have to buy it (whatever it is), through clever marketing, or we really do have to move on, because it will be made difficult for us to continue with what works perfectly well for us, that we may already own. Same with film cameras-- I have some very nice ones that I still love using. If I can keep getting film, I can keep using them. If I can't, then these perfectly acceptable and beautifully-working cameras will have to be shelved to gather dust, until someone can come up with something (very expensive, I'm sure) for conversion. Diana On Mar 23, 2010, at 5:24 PM, Loris Medici wrote: > (I imagine Judy yelling "planned obsolescence!" right now - > hehehehe...) I still have a Zorki 4K with nice Jupiter 8, 9, 12 lenses > and a turret finder, all older than I am, all in good shape, which I > know that they will serve me well in case I decide to use them. (As > they did back when I was actually using them.) Unfortunately you don't > have that with electronic gear - that's my real problem with digital > cameras... (Maybe that was exactly what you were referring to.) > > Regards, > Loris. > > > 2010/3/23 Diana Bloomfield : >> ... >> I do hate that digital cameras seem to be like cars-- as soon as >> you remove >> them from the store (or drive them off the lot), already they're >> out-of-date and beginning their rapid depreciation, it seems. >> ... > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From viapiano at pacbell.net Tue Mar 23 22:03:17 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 15:03:17 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: new digital sensor References: <725fa8581003231424w7763ac47t125f3afe5b1d404a@mail.gmail.com> <1D628AE0-6E83-47ED-9BBC-CDD8CE70B48E@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <81BFD4551A1445929680D9CDBE6C5E02@dell4600> I still have my Canon D30. Yes, the original dSLR with 3 megapixels... I don't buy into the whole subscription/upgrade thing, it doesn't make one a better photographer, that's for sure. My Europe series of 9 x 14 inches (approx) pt/pd prints are all from this camera (2002) before I started shooting film again. http://www.flickr.com/photos/viapiano/sets/72157623458364264/ What else do you need, really? The only things I feel I could use are better high ISO images and a full frame, but then again I only use this camera less than 5% of the time. Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diana Bloomfield" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 2:35 PM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: new digital sensor > Yes, Loris; that was my point. My Canon 5D works perfectly well for me, > but they keep coming out with something newer and better, with more > pixels and more bells and whistles-- and so-- we're either convinced we > have to buy it (whatever it is), through clever marketing, or we really > do have to move on, because it will be made difficult for us to continue > with what works perfectly well for us, that we may already own. Same > with film cameras-- I have some very nice ones that I still love using. > If I can keep getting film, I can keep using them. If I can't, then > these perfectly acceptable and beautifully-working cameras will have to > be shelved to gather dust, until someone can come up with something (very > expensive, I'm sure) for conversion. > > Diana > > On Mar 23, 2010, at 5:24 PM, Loris Medici wrote: > >> (I imagine Judy yelling "planned obsolescence!" right now - >> hehehehe...) I still have a Zorki 4K with nice Jupiter 8, 9, 12 lenses >> and a turret finder, all older than I am, all in good shape, which I >> know that they will serve me well in case I decide to use them. (As >> they did back when I was actually using them.) Unfortunately you don't >> have that with electronic gear - that's my real problem with digital >> cameras... (Maybe that was exactly what you were referring to.) >> >> Regards, >> Loris. >> >> >> 2010/3/23 Diana Bloomfield : >>> ... >>> I do hate that digital cameras seem to be like cars-- as soon as you >>> remove >>> them from the store (or drive them off the lot), already they're >>> out-of-date and beginning their rapid depreciation, it seems. >>> ... >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From viapiano at pacbell.net Tue Mar 23 22:51:21 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 15:51:21 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net><3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600><66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com><87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600><66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600><4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com><1DD6FA6E-85C8-4674-895A-AD10EF974897@bellsouth.net><965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600><5C899B39E10F4F6388A3DFA5BF456C8C@dell4600><12F03994-823C-473F-909B-94571991D4DF@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: OK, last post on this one... As mentioned below, the red layer (burnt sienna) pretty much washed off due to underexposure, so today I tried again. No size, so this is the fourth time it's been coated, cleared and dried. Registration stayed true and highlights have only the slightest hint of warmth. http://www.flickr.com/photos/viapiano/4458609444/ I'm putting a fork in this one...it's done ;-) Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Viapiano" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 3:07 PM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) > Diana, > > Even when I use Fab EW leftover from pt/pd printing, I notice no stain > until the 3rd layer, which is actually its 4th soak (first soak is in > oxalic acid solution to prepare for that process). > > Even Keith Taylor, who bonds his paper to aluminum and does not size, is > able to print 3 rich tricolor layers and not experience stain. > > BTW, I printed a red layer on my print but didn't expose quite long > enough, the sun is hazy today. So all I got was a slightly warmer color > overall and still perfect registration, but no stain. > > I may continue to press my luck with another layer and maybe even more > posts ;-) > > Thanks all... > > Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Diana Bloomfield" > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 2:47 PM > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) > > >> Hey Paul. At the risk of racking up too many posts here-- I just wanted >> to let you know that I took one of my pieces of Rives, right out of the >> flat file (no pre-shrinking or sizing), and I've done only one coat >> now-- but there was no staining, though I did have to leave it in the >> water far longer than I normally do. I'll let you know what happens >> when I try a second coat. Even though there's no staining with this one >> coat-- I do miss having that slight sheen from the PVA, so I might just >> stay with the PVA-- but I'm gonna finish this one out for any >> registration/staining problems with subsequent layers. >> >> Thanks again for your updates/results. >> >> Diana >> >> On Mar 22, 2010, at 3:17 PM, Paul Viapiano wrote: >> >>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 22, 2010, at 8:27 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: >>>> >>>>> Diana... >>>>> >>>>> I didn't size and I didn't preshrink. Paper is 10 x 11 inches, image >>>>> size is approx 6 x 6 inches, give or take. >>>>> >>>>> Here's a scan after 2 layers, indigo and then raw sienna, waxed >>>>> paper neg. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/viapiano/4454749196/ >>>>> >>>>> Please let me know what you think...anything at all! >>>>> >>>>> Thx..Paul >>>>> >>>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Tue Mar 23 23:31:34 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 19:31:34 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net><3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600><66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com><87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600><66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600><4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com><1DD6FA6E-85C8-4674-895A-AD10EF974897@bellsouth.net><965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600><5C899B39E10F4F6388A3DFA5BF456C8C@dell4600><12F03994-823C-473F-909B-94571991D4DF@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <2EECBFBB-1859-499A-96AD-E2C5E62A091C@bellsouth.net> I'm impressed, Paul. Thanks so much for posting this. I really like the image. I've made the second coat on mine, which I started yesterday, with no registration problems at all. That makes me really happy, because I'd love to forgo the pre-shrink altogether. Again, I had to leave it in the water for far longer than I would if I used PVA, but no staining in the end. It's not a large image (8x8), so I'm wondering how this registration would be with something much larger. But this is good to know. Thanks again. Diana On Mar 23, 2010, at 6:51 PM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > OK, last post on this one... > > As mentioned below, the red layer (burnt sienna) pretty much washed > off due to underexposure, so today I tried again. > > No size, so this is the fourth time it's been coated, cleared and > dried. Registration stayed true and highlights have only the > slightest hint of warmth. > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/viapiano/4458609444/ > > I'm putting a fork in this one...it's done ;-) > > Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Viapiano" > > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 3:07 PM > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) > > >> Diana, >> >> Even when I use Fab EW leftover from pt/pd printing, I notice no >> stain until the 3rd layer, which is actually its 4th soak (first >> soak is in oxalic acid solution to prepare for that process). >> >> Even Keith Taylor, who bonds his paper to aluminum and does not >> size, is able to print 3 rich tricolor layers and not experience >> stain. >> >> BTW, I printed a red layer on my print but didn't expose quite long >> enough, the sun is hazy today. So all I got was a slightly warmer >> color overall and still perfect registration, but no stain. >> >> I may continue to press my luck with another layer and maybe even >> more posts ;-) >> >> Thanks all... >> >> Paul >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Diana Bloomfield" > > >> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" > > >> Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 2:47 PM >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) >> >> >>> Hey Paul. At the risk of racking up too many posts here-- I just >>> wanted to let you know that I took one of my pieces of Rives, >>> right out of the flat file (no pre-shrinking or sizing), and I've >>> done only one coat now-- but there was no staining, though I did >>> have to leave it in the water far longer than I normally do. >>> I'll let you know what happens when I try a second coat. Even >>> though there's no staining with this one coat-- I do miss having >>> that slight sheen from the PVA, so I might just stay with the >>> PVA-- but I'm gonna finish this one out for any registration/ >>> staining problems with subsequent layers. >>> >>> Thanks again for your updates/results. >>> >>> Diana >>> >>> On Mar 22, 2010, at 3:17 PM, Paul Viapiano wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 22, 2010, at 8:27 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Diana... >>>>>> >>>>>> I didn't size and I didn't preshrink. Paper is 10 x 11 >>>>>> inches, image size is approx 6 x 6 inches, give or take. >>>>>> >>>>>> Here's a scan after 2 layers, indigo and then raw sienna, waxed >>>>>> paper neg. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/viapiano/4454749196/ >>>>>> >>>>>> Please let me know what you think...anything at all! >>>>>> >>>>>> Thx..Paul >>>>>> >>>>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From jseigel at panix.com Wed Mar 24 02:06:07 2010 From: jseigel at panix.com (Judy Seigel) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 22:06:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: References: <687D2BE8.CDF0.4EC3.BD1E.E4849D62CF4E@aol.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 2010, Diana Bloomfield wrote: > Damn. I knew somebody might be counting. :0 > > On Mar 22, 2010, at 5:51 PM, ender100 wrote: > >> OK, Diana, that's your last post for today, you are now cut off >> hehehehehehe >> -- >> Best Wishes, >> >> Mark Nelson >> Precision Digital Negatives >> PDNPrint Forum @ Yahoo Groups >> >> Mark Nelson Photography Due to means beyond my control (nobody's perfect !) it's been several days since I'm managed to fill my quota on the list... So I donate my unused e-mail permissions to...Diana, then, first come first served. (But Mark Nelson has to apply in person... Heheheheh !) love & kisses, Judy >> >> >> On Mar 22, 2010, at 4:47:15 PM, "Diana Bloomfield" >> wrote: >> >> Hey Paul. At the risk of racking up too many posts here-- I just >> wanted to let you know that I took one of my pieces of Rives, right >> out of the flat file (no pre-shrinking or sizing), and I've done only >> one coat now-- but there was no staining, though I did have to leave >> it in the water far longer than I normally do. I'll let you know >> what happens when I try a second coat. Even though there's no >> staining with this one coat-- I do miss having that slight sheen from >> the PVA, so I might just stay with the PVA-- but I'm gonna finish this >> one out for any registration/staining problems with subsequent layers. >> >> Thanks again for your updates/results. >> >> Diana >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From ender100 at aol.com Wed Mar 24 03:12:18 2010 From: ender100 at aol.com (ender100) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 22:12:18 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: awww Judy, I didn't realize you wanted to see me again in person.... how about a corned beef sandwich at a New York Deli? -- Best Wishes, Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negatives PDNPrint Forum @ Yahoo Groups Mark Nelson Photography On Mar 23, 2010, at 9:06:07 PM, "Judy Seigel" wrote: From: "Judy Seigel" Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) Date: March 23, 2010 9:06:07 PM CDT To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" On Mon, 22 Mar 2010, Diana Bloomfield wrote: > Damn. I knew somebody might be counting. :0 > > On Mar 22, 2010, at 5:51 PM, ender100 wrote: > >> OK, Diana, that's your last post for today, you are now cut off? >> hehehehehehe >> -- >> Best Wishes, >>? >> Mark Nelson >> Precision Digital Negatives >> PDNPrint Forum @ Yahoo Groups >>? >> Mark Nelson Photography Due to means beyond my control (nobody's perfect !) it's been several days? since I'm managed to fill my quota on the list... So I donate my unused? e-mail permissions to...Diana, then, first come first served. (But Mark? Nelson has to apply in person... Heheheheh !) love & kisses, Judy >>? >>? >> On Mar 22, 2010, at 4:47:15 PM, "Diana Bloomfield"? >> wrote: >>? >> Hey Paul. At the risk of racking up too many posts here-- I just >> wanted to let you know that I took one of my pieces of Rives, right >> out of the flat file (no pre-shrinking or sizing), and I've done only >> one coat now-- but there was no staining, though I did have to leave >> it in the water far longer than I normally do. I'll let you know >> what happens when I try a second coat. Even though there's no >> staining with this one coat-- I do miss having that slight sheen from >> the PVA, so I might just stay with the PVA-- but I'm gonna finish this >> one out for any registration/staining problems with subsequent layers. >>? >> Thanks again for your updates/results. >>? >> Diana >>? >>? >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From jseigel at panix.com Wed Mar 24 03:15:47 2010 From: jseigel at panix.com (Judy Seigel) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 23:15:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: "sustainable market for film" In-Reply-To: <66575de71003231055s40f923ak50595515d9547a5c@mail.gmail.com> References: <20100323173219.EAF35157554@karen.lavabit.com> <66575de71003231055s40f923ak50595515d9547a5c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I think the comment about "sustainable market" for film may miss the point. As long as the folks (note, please, polite term for relics, or fossils, or --- ----s) who learned photography with film and still use it, remain active, the "market" for film may well be "sustainable" in some form or other. But when the time comes (if not already here) that students learning photography learn digital -- and film is only a specialty or relic (maybe with a film-making "list" on line) as, odds are, it will be... there will be a dwindling unto collapse of that "market." It may not happen in our life times, and we can be thankful for that, but it will happen. Then, perhaps, folks will learn to coat some flexible material with a silver solution (as we learned to coat a sheet of paper with, for instance, gum bichromate solution) and make "alternate photographs" with old style "film," but..... where is the market for buggy whips nowadays (other than antique stores) ? Is there a factory still making them? (not to mention that roll cameras would also go out of production). And here I mostly guess, tho I daresay someone on this list will know more, if not all: It's my understanding that the making and use of film and analog photo products are environmentally grievous (for instance I remember list discussion of problems for folks with septic tanks in disposing of their solutions). Is it possible that digital photography will be considerably less troublesome ? Judy On Tue, 23 Mar 2010, Jeremy Moore wrote: > I wouldn't say "shoot fast", but "shoot a lot." If there's a sustainable > market there will be film. It may not be on the massive scale of Kodak, but > there will be film. Hell, you can still get your buggy whip repaired: > http://jedediahsbuggywhip.com/ > > -Jeremy- > > On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 12:32 PM, etienne garbaux < > photographeur at nerdshack.com> wrote: >> >> >> Shoot fast. According to friends in the industry, 120 film from reliable >> suppliers is unlikely to survive another decade. Even 35mm film from >> reliable suppliers may be gone by then. >> >> Best regards, >> >> etienne >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From jseigel at panix.com Wed Mar 24 03:29:23 2010 From: jseigel at panix.com (Judy Seigel) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 23:29:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mark, as tragic as the loss of film, is the loss of authentic "New York deli's," at least in our gentrified neighborhood. (No fault of mine, it gentrified in spite of our arrival, not because of it... in fact when we moved here 53 years ago it was a slum). However, we still have some pretty good pizza, maybe because "the Village" is an offshoot of Little Italy. If you stop by.... I'm a sport, I'll buy you a slice !!! P.S. I think it's possible you can still get a good corned beef sandwich uptown, at some place like the Carnegie deli... But we Villagers get nosebleeds if we go above 14th Street, so I wouldn't know. J. On Tue, 23 Mar 2010, ender100 wrote: > awww Judy, I didn't realize you wanted to see me again in person.... how > about a corned beef sandwich at a New York Deli? > > > -- > Best Wishes, > > Mark Nelson > Precision Digital Negatives > PDNPrint Forum @ Yahoo Groups > > Mark Nelson Photography > > > On Mar 23, 2010, at 9:06:07 PM, "Judy Seigel" wrote: > > From: "Judy Seigel" > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) > Date: March 23, 2010 9:06:07 PM CDT > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" > > On Mon, 22 Mar 2010, Diana Bloomfield wrote: > >> Damn. I knew somebody might be counting. :0 >> >> On Mar 22, 2010, at 5:51 PM, ender100 wrote: >> >>> OK, Diana, that's your last post for today, you are now cut off? >>> hehehehehehe >>> -- >>> Best Wishes, >>> ? >>> Mark Nelson >>> Precision Digital Negatives >>> PDNPrint Forum @ Yahoo Groups >>> ? >>> Mark Nelson Photography > > Due to means beyond my control (nobody's perfect !) it's been several days? > since I'm managed to fill my quota on the list... So I donate my unused? > e-mail permissions to...Diana, then, first come first served. (But Mark? > Nelson has to apply in person... Heheheheh !) > > love & kisses, > > Judy > > > > >>> ? >>> ? >>> On Mar 22, 2010, at 4:47:15 PM, "Diana Bloomfield"? >>> wrote: >>> ? >>> Hey Paul. At the risk of racking up too many posts here-- I just >>> wanted to let you know that I took one of my pieces of Rives, right >>> out of the flat file (no pre-shrinking or sizing), and I've done only >>> one coat now-- but there was no staining, though I did have to leave >>> it in the water far longer than I normally do. I'll let you know >>> what happens when I try a second coat. Even though there's no >>> staining with this one coat-- I do miss having that slight sheen from >>> the PVA, so I might just stay with the PVA-- but I'm gonna finish this >>> one out for any registration/staining problems with subsequent layers. >>> ? >>> Thanks again for your updates/results. >>> ? >>> Diana >>> ? >>> ? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > From jseigel at panix.com Wed Mar 24 03:44:38 2010 From: jseigel at panix.com (Judy Seigel) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 23:44:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: <965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600> References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net><3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600><66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com><87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600><66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600><4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com> <1DD6FA6E-85C8-4674-895A-AD10EF974897@bellsouth.net> <965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Mar 2010, Paul Viapiano wrote: > Diana... > > I didn't size and I didn't preshrink. Paper is 10 x 11 inches, image size is > approx 6 x 6 inches, give or take. > I love the thought of a 6" by 6" print, tho as these things go currently, that would be considered a miniature. I'm wondering tho, now that the topic arrives... would it be possible to fasten the wet print in some kind of frame or "harness" so it couldn't shrink on drying? J. From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Wed Mar 24 03:58:01 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 23:58:01 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] film and unused posts In-Reply-To: References: <20100323173219.EAF35157554@karen.lavabit.com> <66575de71003231055s40f923ak50595515d9547a5c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7F14A71E-CF8E-42A4-8A44-6C2239407935@bellsouth.net> Hey Judy, Thanks for the generosity on your unused posts. I see, though, scrolling through my email here, that you've made a couple of more posts since this one, so I hope that doesn't mean you're now taking back what you just gave to me-- because, if not, then I'll just have to point out that you may actually be reaching your quota right about now . . . you know, just saying. About film . . . I will say that I think it will continue to be made (and easy enough to purchase)-- until they start making medium format digital cameras that are affordable to the average consumer. They could do that now, but they won't. So until that becomes a reality, I'm guessing film for medium and large format cameras will be here for a while. That's my thinking, and my last thought (and post) for the day. :) Diana On Mar 23, 2010, at 11:15 PM, Judy Seigel wrote: > > I think the comment about "sustainable market" for film may miss the > point. As long as the folks (note, please, polite term for relics, > or fossils, or --- ----s) who learned photography with film and > still use it, remain active, the "market" for film may well be > "sustainable" in some form or other. > > But when the time comes (if not already here) that students learning > photography learn digital -- and film is only a specialty or relic > (maybe with a film-making "list" on line) as, odds are, it will > be... there will be a dwindling unto collapse of that "market." It > may not happen in our life times, and we can be thankful for that, > but it will happen. > > Then, perhaps, folks will learn to coat some flexible material with > a silver solution (as we learned to coat a sheet of paper with, for > instance, gum bichromate solution) and make "alternate photographs" > with old style "film," but..... where is the market for buggy whips > nowadays (other than antique stores) ? Is there a factory still > making them? (not to mention that roll cameras would also go out of > production). > > And here I mostly guess, tho I daresay someone on this list will > know more, if not all: It's my understanding that the making and > use of film and analog photo products are environmentally grievous > (for instance I remember list discussion of problems for folks with > septic tanks in disposing of their solutions). Is it possible that > digital photography will be considerably less troublesome ? > > Judy From ender100 at aol.com Wed Mar 24 05:01:09 2010 From: ender100 at aol.com (ender100) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 00:01:09 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Judy, If I remember correctly, you bought me a corned beef sandwich at the Carnegie Deli the last time I saw you?but it's been a few years. ?So this time, I'll buy! Mark -- Best Wishes, Mark Nelson Precision Digital Negatives PDNPrint Forum @ Yahoo Groups Mark Nelson Photography On Mar 23, 2010, at 10:29:23 PM, "Judy Seigel" wrote: From: "Judy Seigel" Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) Date: March 23, 2010 10:29:23 PM CDT To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Mark, as tragic as the loss of film, is the loss of authentic "New York? deli's," at least in our gentrified neighborhood. (No fault of mine, it gentrified in spite of our arrival, not because of it... in fact when we? moved here 53 years ago it was a slum). However, we still have some pretty good pizza, maybe because "the Village"? is an offshoot of Little Italy. If you stop by.... I'm a sport, I'll buy? you a slice !!! P.S. I think it's possible you can still get a good corned beef sandwich? uptown, at some place like the Carnegie deli... But we Villagers get? nosebleeds if we go above 14th Street, so I wouldn't know. J. On Tue, 23 Mar 2010, ender100 wrote: > awww Judy, I didn't realize you wanted to see me again in person.... how? > about a corned beef sandwich at a New York Deli? > > > -- > Best Wishes, > > Mark Nelson > Precision Digital Negatives > PDNPrint Forum @ Yahoo Groups > > Mark Nelson Photography > > > On Mar 23, 2010, at 9:06:07 PM, "Judy Seigel" wrote: > > From: "Judy Seigel" > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) > Date: March 23, 2010 9:06:07 PM CDT > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" > > On Mon, 22 Mar 2010, Diana Bloomfield wrote: > >> Damn. I knew somebody might be counting. :0 >> >> On Mar 22, 2010, at 5:51 PM, ender100 wrote: >> >>> OK, Diana, that's your last post for today, you are now cut off? >>> hehehehehehe >>> -- >>> Best Wishes, >>> ? >>> Mark Nelson >>> Precision Digital Negatives >>> PDNPrint Forum @ Yahoo Groups >>> ? >>> Mark Nelson Photography > > Due to means beyond my control (nobody's perfect !) it's been several days? > since I'm managed to fill my quota on the list... So I donate my unused? > e-mail permissions to...Diana, then, first come first served. (But Mark? > Nelson has to apply in person... Heheheheh !) > > love & kisses, > > Judy > > > > >>> ? >>> ? >>> On Mar 22, 2010, at 4:47:15 PM, "Diana Bloomfield"? >>> wrote: >>> ? >>> Hey Paul. At the risk of racking up too many posts here-- I just >>> wanted to let you know that I took one of my pieces of Rives, right >>> out of the flat file (no pre-shrinking or sizing), and I've done only >>> one coat now-- but there was no staining, though I did have to leave >>> it in the water far longer than I normally do. I'll let you know >>> what happens when I try a second coat. Even though there's no >>> staining with this one coat-- I do miss having that slight sheen from >>> the PVA, so I might just stay with the PVA-- but I'm gonna finish this >>> one out for any registration/staining problems with subsequent layers. >>> ? >>> Thanks again for your updates/results. >>> ? >>> Diana >>> ? >>> ? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From rs at silvergrain.org Wed Mar 24 07:34:25 2010 From: rs at silvergrain.org (Ryuji Suzuki) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 03:34:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: new digital sensor In-Reply-To: <1D628AE0-6E83-47ED-9BBC-CDD8CE70B48E@bellsouth.net> References: <725fa8581003231424w7763ac47t125f3afe5b1d404a@mail.gmail.com> <1D628AE0-6E83-47ED-9BBC-CDD8CE70B48E@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <20100324.033425.258258239.lifebook-4234377@silvergrain.org> From: Diana Bloomfield Subject: [alt-photo] Re: new digital sensor Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 17:35:58 -0400 > My Canon 5D works perfectly well for me, but they keep > coming out with something newer and better, with more pixels > and more bells and whistles-- and so-- we're either > convinced we have to buy it (whatever it is), through clever > marketing, or we really do have to move on, because it will > be made difficult for us to continue with what works > perfectly well for us, that we may already own. If you are talking abotu 5D mkII, that isn't much better than 5D. Still poor AF performance in dim lighting. MkII has a better sensor and LCD, but not that important for fine art work. I think you might want to realize that majority of 5D owners are commercial photogs and hobbists... who would benefit from that kind of improvements. A $2400 camera with 2 year lifespan = $100/mo. Is such improvements worth $100/mo? This is a no brainer to most commercial photogs. But if I were to shoot street photography, or some art project, I much prefer rangefinder of Mamiya 6 over AF of 5D or 5DmkII. In terms of technological advancement, the new metering sensor in 7D is noteworthy. This camera uses a matrix of light meter sensors that recognize color, and coupled with the AF points. If you try that camera, you know, the exposure is accurate enough (if used for negative films) to forget about spot metering and manual exposure compensation! I want someone to make a 6x6 rangefinder with that metering system! (But of course, that won't happen.) Let me make one prediction, after seeing a bit about silver-based photo industry from inside. If silver based photographic supplies become unavailable for some reason, the main problem is the distribution system that can work effectively for the niche market. Most big players are set up for the market when it was big, and they are reluctant to spend any more effort. They are just letting the inertia to work and watching it to wear out. Small players, who started with enthusiasm but without solid business plans nor creative marketing ideas (how can they get smart people to work for them if they don't generate enough profit??), aren't going to survive much longer, because they are not generating enough profit to survive. Familiar brands may go away, but some film will continue to be manufacturable somewhere for a price. The question is whether there will be a good distribution to consolidate small markets to a sizable unit to make the production feasible. I think one important point is whether used equipment dealers will handle film products (doubtful), or whether there will be a user community based mechanism to replace existing ineffective distribution-retail mechanisms. Let's see how it goes in the next few years. -- Ryuji Suzuki "Don't play what's there, play what's not there." (Miles Davis) From rs at silvergrain.org Wed Mar 24 08:01:16 2010 From: rs at silvergrain.org (Ryuji Suzuki) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 04:01:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: "sustainable market for film" In-Reply-To: References: <20100323173219.EAF35157554@karen.lavabit.com> <66575de71003231055s40f923ak50595515d9547a5c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100324.040116.43393341.lifebook-4234377@silvergrain.org> From: Judy Seigel Subject: [alt-photo] Re: "sustainable market for film" Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 23:15:47 -0400 (EDT) > I think the comment about "sustainable market" for film may > miss the point. As long as the folks (note, please, polite > term for relics, or fossils, or --- ----s) who learned > photography with film and still use it, remain active, the > "market" for film may well be "sustainable" in some form or > other. In order for the industry to be sustainable, it requires more than the existence of market. There has to be stable, efficient and readily available distribution and retail channels. If film were a high profit margin product (like cocaine) there would be supply chains, but we are talking about $3 roll of film, from which the store and distributor keep half, and they aren't making enough profit. Unlike artists, distributors and retailers won't get grants or prize money, and they don't have art collectors or any other form of sugar daddy. What they have is capitalism. Whether it's good or not is another point, but I am personally concerned that that will be the weakest point in the silver based photographic industry right now. -- Ryuji Suzuki "Don't play what's there, play what's not there." (Miles Davis) From rs at silvergrain.org Wed Mar 24 08:12:14 2010 From: rs at silvergrain.org (Ryuji Suzuki) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 04:12:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: film and unused posts In-Reply-To: <7F14A71E-CF8E-42A4-8A44-6C2239407935@bellsouth.net> References: <66575de71003231055s40f923ak50595515d9547a5c@mail.gmail.com> <7F14A71E-CF8E-42A4-8A44-6C2239407935@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <20100324.041214.27987328.lifebook-4234377@silvergrain.org> From: Diana Bloomfield Subject: [alt-photo] film and unused posts Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 23:58:01 -0400 > -- until they start > making medium format digital cameras that are affordable to > the average consumer. They could do that now, but they won't. > So until that becomes a reality, I'm guessing film for medium > and large format cameras will be here for a while. That's my > thinking, and my last thought (and post) for the day. :) I'm not too worried about supply of some b&w medium format films in the immediate future, but I don't think inexpensive medium format digital camera, or for that matter, inexpensive full frame 35mm format digital camera, to be likely (tho, used 5D is kinda cheap now, relatively speaking). Manufacturing of larger sensors is considerably more costly, compared to APS-C size or smaller. It's more likely to see smaller sensor cameras with noise ninja and genuine fractals built in. On the other hand, manufacturing cost of film grows less than linearly with the image area. I think this is one advantage of film, especially in the areas with demand for very shallow depth of field or very high resolution. -- Ryuji Suzuki "Don't play what's there, play what's not there." (Miles Davis) From alt.list at albertonovo.it Wed Mar 24 09:15:56 2010 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 10:15:56 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] books before 1977 Message-ID: <20100324091556.26202.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> Were there any books on alt-techniques before "Breaking the Rules" published in 1977? I think so, but I have no reference. May you help me? Alberto From mail at loris.medici.name Wed Mar 24 09:17:47 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:17:47 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) In-Reply-To: References: <2A262BA69CE84F839E057C6DF3D969F0@TOSHIBAAndy><7E85559F-BDE3-4218-9806-B337ECC65F1B@montana.net><3542F4FCBEB34ED4A988F81FA133DF2F@dell4600><66575de71003211253y31438cefxe82d5112f4262431@mail.gmail.com><87AFC7531DB5400A9E67298D06AEBA71@dell4600><66575de71003211300n5c3ac7edvbf9796e1981b6f82@mail.gmail.com> <388520C8186349CC90CF8C9618DB3DF6@dell4600><4BA793BA.30907@chalkjockeys.com><1DD6FA6E-85C8-4674-895A-AD10EF974897@bellsouth.net><965D09C3F6A842E4A106DC9FD9DAA9DC@dell4600><5C899B39E10F4F6388A3DFA5BF456C8C@dell4600><12F03994-823C-473F-909B-94571991D4DF@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <10C902F00B614499A34E472E394B1BE6@altinyildiz.trk> Nice work Paul, congratulations... -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf Of Paul Viapiano Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 12:51 AM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: to shrink or not to shrink (registration) OK, last post on this one... As mentioned below, the red layer (burnt sienna) pretty much washed off due to underexposure, so today I tried again. No size, so this is the fourth time it's been coated, cleared and dried. Registration stayed true and highlights have only the slightest hint of warmth. http://www.flickr.com/photos/viapiano/4458609444/ I'm putting a fork in this one...it's done ;-) Paul From tom at sobota.net Wed Mar 24 10:07:10 2010 From: tom at sobota.net (Tomas Sobota) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 11:07:10 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: books before 1977 In-Reply-To: <20100324091556.26202.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> References: <20100324091556.26202.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> Message-ID: Alberto, A very small bibliography that I remember: 1. Gassan, Arnold "Handbook for Contemporary Photography". Athens, Ohio, Handbook Co.,1974 (Platinum, photogravure and collotype) 2. "Nonsilver Printing Processes: Four Selections, 1886-1927". Peter Bunnel ed. New York, Arno Press, 1973 Then there's the book by Kent Wade, but that was printed in 1978. Also, around that time a number of articles were appearing in photographic journals, like Petersen's. Are you interested in those also? cheers Tom Sobota Madrid, Spain On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 10:15 AM, Alberto Novo wrote: > Were there any books on alt-techniques before "Breaking the Rules" > published in 1977? I think so, but I have no reference. May you help me? > Alberto > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From davidvickersphotography at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 24 10:31:19 2010 From: davidvickersphotography at yahoo.co.uk (David Vickers) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 10:31:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: books before 1977 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <337542.55575.qm@web24207.mail.ird.yahoo.com> When did 'alternative photography' come into being? At one point, many of the now alt processes were 'normal'. In my c1910 book 'Everyones Guide To Photography' it lists many of what we would now consider to be alt processes, but at the time, they were contemporary processes. However, even then it notes that the use of ferrous oxalate as a developer had gone out of fashion... does that make it an alt process for 1910-ish? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ? David Vickers Photography, based in Farnham, Surrey. Internet: http://www.davidvickers.com? Email: davidvickersphotography at yahoo.co.uk? ? --- On Wed, 24/3/10, Tomas Sobota wrote: From: Tomas Sobota Subject: [alt-photo] Re: books before 1977 To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Date: Wednesday, 24 March, 2010, 10:07 Alberto, A very small bibliography that I remember: 1. Gassan, Arnold "Handbook for Contemporary Photography". Athens, Ohio, Handbook Co.,1974 (Platinum, photogravure and collotype) 2. "Nonsilver Printing Processes: Four Selections, 1886-1927". Peter Bunnel ed. New York, Arno Press, 1973 Then there's the book by Kent Wade, but that was printed in 1978. Also, around that time a number of articles were appearing in photographic journals, like Petersen's. Are you interested in those also? cheers Tom Sobota Madrid, Spain On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 10:15 AM, Alberto Novo wrote: > Were there any books on alt-techniques before "Breaking the Rules" > published in 1977? I think so, but I have no reference. May you help me? > Alberto > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Wed Mar 24 11:41:57 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 07:41:57 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: new digital sensor In-Reply-To: <20100324.033425.258258239.lifebook-4234377@silvergrain.org> References: <725fa8581003231424w7763ac47t125f3afe5b1d404a@mail.gmail.com> <1D628AE0-6E83-47ED-9BBC-CDD8CE70B48E@bellsouth.net> <20100324.033425.258258239.lifebook-4234377@silvergrain.org> Message-ID: <9C38D0C1-6CCA-4FF4-A319-29CBD25088B5@bellsouth.net> Hi Ryuji, If you read my post in its entirety, you would see I stated that I don't actually use my Canon 5D much, except for "paid jobs" (ie, commercial). And for that purpose, along with an excellent lens, it works perfectly well for me. So, yes, I do realize that (some) 5D owners are commercial photographers-- though, admittedly I don't know many "hobbyists" who own one. Most "hobbyists" I know seem to own one of the Canon Rebels, which I think are also perfectly fine cameras. Perhaps your definitions of "hobbyist" and "commercial" differ from mine. As stated before-- I mostly don't use a digital camera for my own work (fine art)-- not because it isn't a good camera, but I just don't like the (similar to) 35mm format. I never have. I also don't like what I see in the comparatively "flat" look of a straight digital print-- though that can be avoided by making an alt process print from the scans, I think. Instead, I typically use homemade pinhole cameras, the Mamiya 6 (agree with you about that), and I'm also very fond of a few other cameras I own, too, none of which is digital. If I was a full-time commercial photographer (emphasis on full-time), making truly serious big bucks, I would certainly own a digital camera-- no doubt about it-- but it most likely would not be a Canon. In the commercial world I like to envision for myself, I would hope to make enough money to be able to afford a much more top-of-the-line/ state-of-the-art digital camera. I'm thinking most big-time commercial photographers (that I know) would agree. The few I do know who make that kind of money certainly do not own the Canon 5D-- nor even the upgrade at an extra $100/month. And, yep, $100/month is more than I would spend for that. I can think of a lot of other things to do with $100/month than do that, so-- yeah-- it's too much for me. Diana On Mar 24, 2010, at 3:34 AM, Ryuji Suzuki wrote: > From: Diana Bloomfield > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: new digital sensor > Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 17:35:58 -0400 > >> My Canon 5D works perfectly well for me, but they keep >> coming out with something newer and better, with more pixels >> and more bells and whistles-- and so-- we're either >> convinced we have to buy it (whatever it is), through clever >> marketing, or we really do have to move on, because it will >> be made difficult for us to continue with what works >> perfectly well for us, that we may already own. > > If you are talking abotu 5D mkII, that isn't much better than > 5D. Still poor AF performance in dim lighting. MkII has a > better sensor and LCD, but not that important for fine art > work. I think you might want to realize that majority of 5D > owners are commercial photogs and hobbists... who would > benefit from that kind of improvements. A $2400 camera with 2 > year lifespan = $100/mo. Is such improvements worth $100/mo? > This is a no brainer to most commercial photogs. > > But if I were to shoot street photography, or some art > project, I much prefer rangefinder of Mamiya 6 over AF of 5D > or 5DmkII. > > In terms of technological advancement, the new metering sensor > in 7D is noteworthy. This camera uses a matrix of light meter > sensors that recognize color, and coupled with the AF > points. If you try that camera, you know, the exposure is > accurate enough (if used for negative films) to forget about > spot metering and manual exposure compensation! I want someone > to make a 6x6 rangefinder with that metering system! > (But of course, that won't happen.) > > Let me make one prediction, after seeing a bit about > silver-based photo industry from inside. If silver based > photographic supplies become unavailable for some reason, the > main problem is the distribution system that can work > effectively for the niche market. Most big players are set up > for the market when it was big, and they are reluctant to > spend any more effort. They are just letting the inertia to > work and watching it to wear out. Small players, who started > with enthusiasm but without solid business plans nor creative > marketing ideas (how can they get smart people to work for > them if they don't generate enough profit??), aren't going to > survive much longer, because they are not generating enough > profit to survive. Familiar brands may go away, but some film > will continue to be manufacturable somewhere for a price. The > question is whether there will be a good distribution to > consolidate small markets to a sizable unit to make the > production feasible. I think one important point is whether > used equipment dealers will handle film products (doubtful), > or whether there will be a user community based mechanism to > replace existing ineffective distribution-retail > mechanisms. Let's see how it goes in the next few years. > > -- > Ryuji Suzuki > "Don't play what's there, play what's not there." (Miles Davis) > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Wed Mar 24 14:06:16 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:06:16 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: books before 1977 In-Reply-To: <20100324091556.26202.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> References: <20100324091556.26202.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> Message-ID: <6194763E-587F-4408-8D1E-149DC01DC30C@montana.net> Alberto, Don't get me started...if I had my druthers, I'd be in a musty library all day every day...it is like a treasure hunt. I assume you mean in recent history, not from 1800's on? I am including others that are around that date, too but after 1977. Tons of stuff in journals, though. Lots more gum-specific but I assume you are interested in all alt not just gum. Jordan is a hoot--a book worth buying at abebooks.com. Very irreverent writer who doesn't take himself seriously. It'd be interesting to see if he and Anderson knew each other, because they are very different people writing around the same time. I found an excellent collection of photo books at Mertle Rare Books library in Minnesota. The other, of course, at Eastman. I think there is also an excellent collection in TX at the Ransom Center, and there was a wonderful woman, Katherine Arens, who actually TRANSLATED some German text for me out of the goodness of her heart that Ransom would not copy nor let out of the library. That was over and above the call of duty. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of the books down on my biblio that did not include gum stuff so there are more out there I am sure. But I found SO much info in journals while researching at George Eastman House. For instance, here are some journals that were around that time (excuse typos--rushed list) and only include ones I haven't yet gone through. For the gum book I have found research in 200 sources, for instance. But these are all 1800's stuff and may not pertain to your question. photo american, photographic notes 1856, photgraphic news 1858 amer jrnl ph 1855 bulletin de la s f 55 ph journal 1853 ph times and am ph 1881, photography 1888, photo beacon 1893, camera and dkrm 1899 ph journal 1876, ph annual 1891, practical ph, photo miniature 1899, ph times 1871, ph world 1871, am photo camera work, camera craft, camera notes 1897, am amateur ph 1809, amateur ph 1884, am annual of ph am journal of ph 1879, liverpool ph jrnl 1854-60, jurnal of ph soc of london One other thing--going to books.google.com you can download tons of stuff--the German Rundschau that may be up your alley. I downloaded them all and printed out the gum stuff for translation. But again, this may not pertain to your question as I don't think the later books are out of copyright. One thing I will say--I keep my biblio in chronological order, and there is a real...lull...in alt stuff when modernism was the rage. I have my file folders in 5 year periods, and from let's say 1940-1980 it wasn't really popular and my files are thin or empty and then 1980 on fat. Now THAT's a real scientific way to calculate interest.... Chris Anderson, Paul. Pictorial Photography, Its Principles and Practice, 2nd ed. JB Lippincott, 1917. Wall, E.J. Photographic Facts and Formulas. Boston: American Photographic Publishing Co., 1924 Jordan, Franklin. Photographic Control Processes. NY: Galleon Publishers, Inc., 1937. Henney, Keith, and Beverly Dudley. Handbook of Phtography. NY: Whittlesey House, 1939. Mack, Julian Ellis and Miles J. Martin. The Photographic Process, 1st Ed. NY: McGraw Hill Book co., Inc. 1939. Eder, J. M. History of Photography. NY: Columbia University Press, 1945. Neblette, C. B. Photography, Its Principles and Practice, 4th Ed. NY: Van Nostrand Co., Inc, 1946 Creative Darkroom Techniques. 1st Ed. Rochester: Eastman Kodak Co., 1973.pp. 264-272 Gassan, Arnold. Handbook of Contemporary Photography, 3rd ed. Athens: Handbook Co., 1974 (Lt Impressions). Crawford, William. Keepers of Light. NY: Morgan and Morgan, 1979. Frederick, Peter. Creative Sunprinting..Early Photographic Prinitng Processes Rediscovered. London: Focal Press, 1980 Howell-Koehler, Nancy. Photo Art Processes. Worcester, Mass: Davis Publishing Inc., 1980. House, Suda. Artistic Photographic Processes. NY: Amphoto, 1981 Gassan, Arnold. The Color Print Book. Rochester: Light Impressions, 1981 How to Make Old-Time Photos by John McDonald and Melba Smith Cole. Blue Ridge Summit: Tab books, 1981. chapter on gum 184-215 Arnow, Jan. Handbook of Alternative Photographic Processes. NY: Van Nostrand Reinhold Co., 1982 Reeve, Catharine and Marilyn Sward. The New Photography. NJ: Prentice Hall, 1986. Nettles, Bea. Breaking the Rules. Inky Press Productions, 3rd Ed, 1992 On Mar 24, 2010, at 3:15 AM, Alberto Novo wrote: > Were there any books on alt-techniques before "Breaking the Rules" published in 1977? I think so, but I have no reference. May you help me? > Alberto > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From bobkiss at caribsurf.com Wed Mar 24 14:21:59 2010 From: bobkiss at caribsurf.com (BOB KISS) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 10:21:59 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: "sustainable market for film" In-Reply-To: References: <20100323173219.EAF35157554@karen.lavabit.com><66575de71003231055s40f923ak50595515d9547a5c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: DEAR JUDY ET ALIA, Though many people are moving toward HD digital video in the movie business (especially for special effects movies) many are quite conservative and adore (quite rightly) that special look of shooting on color negative and having release prints made. Even if movies in the near future are distributed digitally, many Directors of Photography will insist on originating on color negative film. It is nothing to shoot hundreds of thousands of feet of film to make one movie. Until this dries up there will be some form of film being made. On my trip to Paris in Dec 2008 (to attend the FIE congress-I am a fencing coach) I was amazed to see how many European commercial/advertising/fashion photographers insisted on shooting film, mostly medium format, then scanning their choices on order to Frotoshop and FTP files to the magazines and clients. CHEERS! BOB -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Judy Seigel Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 2010 11:16 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: "sustainable market for film" I think the comment about "sustainable market" for film may miss the point. As long as the folks (note, please, polite term for relics, or fossils, or --- ----s) who learned photography with film and still use it, remain active, the "market" for film may well be "sustainable" in some form or other. But when the time comes (if not already here) that students learning photography learn digital -- and film is only a specialty or relic (maybe with a film-making "list" on line) as, odds are, it will be... there will be a dwindling unto collapse of that "market." It may not happen in our life times, and we can be thankful for that, but it will happen. Then, perhaps, folks will learn to coat some flexible material with a silver solution (as we learned to coat a sheet of paper with, for instance, gum bichromate solution) and make "alternate photographs" with old style "film," but..... where is the market for buggy whips nowadays (other than antique stores) ? Is there a factory still making them? (not to mention that roll cameras would also go out of production). And here I mostly guess, tho I daresay someone on this list will know more, if not all: It's my understanding that the making and use of film and analog photo products are environmentally grievous (for instance I remember list discussion of problems for folks with septic tanks in disposing of their solutions). Is it possible that digital photography will be considerably less troublesome ? Judy On Tue, 23 Mar 2010, Jeremy Moore wrote: > I wouldn't say "shoot fast", but "shoot a lot." If there's a sustainable > market there will be film. It may not be on the massive scale of Kodak, but > there will be film. Hell, you can still get your buggy whip repaired: > http://jedediahsbuggywhip.com/ > > -Jeremy- > > On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 12:32 PM, etienne garbaux < > photographeur at nerdshack.com> wrote: >> >> >> Shoot fast. According to friends in the industry, 120 film from reliable >> suppliers is unlikely to survive another decade. Even 35mm film from >> reliable suppliers may be gone by then. >> >> Best regards, >> >> etienne >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4971 (20100324) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From jefulton1 at comcast.net Wed Mar 24 14:35:14 2010 From: jefulton1 at comcast.net (jackfulton) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 07:35:14 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alt-photo-process-list Digest, Vol 101, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: First we used salt and then eggs. Along came starch and then inorganic chemistry. Mr. Barnak created a device for the film industry that did not become popular until the 1960's and after that we had Kodachrome prints on Cibachrome. And, though little used IR and UV films were on the shelf but Brovira and DuPont, Haloid and other papers disappeared. Slowly but surely digital prints came to use baryta and the stochastic pattern emulated film grain better than film grain. Looks like quantum dots painted like Holly/ Bolly-wood makeup upon sheets shall be de rigueur as light catchers. No rest for the wicked. Jack F From alt.list at albertonovo.it Wed Mar 24 15:19:55 2010 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 16:19:55 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: books before 1977 In-Reply-To: <6194763E-587F-4408-8D1E-149DC01DC30C@montana.net> References: <20100324091556.26202.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <6194763E-587F-4408-8D1E-149DC01DC30C@montana.net> Message-ID: <20100324151955.21412.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> Dear Tom and Christina, thank you so much. I have been too short in my answer. I need to cite some books on alt-techniques (and especially for photographers, not for historians) for the period of the new flourishing of the "old" (or "alt"...) techniques, say from 1960 on, just to show that this is (was) a new way to look at these prosesses. 1977 is the year I have for the first publishing of "Breaking the rules", which I often cite as an example of the philosophy (at that time, at least) behind this way of printing. And the gap existing between Neblette 1946 and Creative Darkroon Techniques (1973) seems to confirm my first assumption. Alberto > Alberto, > > Don't get me started...if I had my druthers, I'd be in a musty library all day every day...it is like a treasure hunt. > > I assume you mean in recent history, not from 1800's on? > > I am including others that are around that date, too but after 1977. > > Tons of stuff in journals, though. > > Lots more gum-specific but I assume you are interested in all alt not just gum. > > Jordan is a hoot--a book worth buying at abebooks.com. Very irreverent writer who doesn't take himself seriously. It'd be interesting to see if he and Anderson knew each other, because they are very different people writing around the same time. > > I found an excellent collection of photo books at Mertle Rare Books library in Minnesota. The other, of course, at Eastman. I think there is also an excellent collection in TX at the Ransom Center, and there was a wonderful woman, Katherine Arens, who actually TRANSLATED some German text for me out of the goodness of her heart that Ransom would not copy nor let out of the library. That was over and above the call of duty. > > Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of the books down on my biblio that did not include gum stuff so there are more out there I am sure. But I found SO much info in journals while researching at George Eastman House. For instance, here are some journals that were around that time (excuse typos--rushed list) and only include ones I haven't yet gone through. For the gum book I have found research in 200 sources, for instance. But these are all 1800's stuff and may not pertain to your question. > > photo american, photographic notes 1856, photgraphic news 1858 amer jrnl ph 1855 bulletin de la s f 55 > ph journal 1853 ph times and am ph 1881, photography 1888, photo beacon 1893, camera and dkrm 1899 > ph journal 1876, ph annual 1891, practical ph, photo miniature 1899, ph times 1871, ph world 1871, am photo > camera work, camera craft, camera notes 1897, am amateur ph 1809, amateur ph 1884, am annual of ph > am journal of ph 1879, liverpool ph jrnl 1854-60, jurnal of ph soc of london > > One other thing--going to books.google.com you can download tons of stuff--the German Rundschau that may be up your alley. I downloaded them all and printed out the gum stuff for translation. But again, this may not pertain to your question as I don't think the later books are out of copyright. > > One thing I will say--I keep my biblio in chronological order, and there is a real...lull...in alt stuff when modernism was the rage. I have my file folders in 5 year periods, and from let's say 1940-1980 it wasn't really popular and my files are thin or empty and then 1980 on fat. Now THAT's a real scientific way to calculate interest.... > > Chris > > > Anderson, Paul. Pictorial Photography, Its Principles and Practice, 2nd ed. JB Lippincott, 1917. > > Wall, E.J. Photographic Facts and Formulas. Boston: American Photographic Publishing Co., 1924 > > Jordan, Franklin. Photographic Control Processes. NY: Galleon Publishers, Inc., 1937. > > Henney, Keith, and Beverly Dudley. Handbook of Phtography. NY: Whittlesey House, 1939. > > Mack, Julian Ellis and Miles J. Martin. The Photographic Process, 1st Ed. NY: McGraw Hill Book co., Inc. 1939. > > Eder, J. M. History of Photography. NY: Columbia University Press, 1945. > > Neblette, C. B. Photography, Its Principles and Practice, 4th Ed. NY: Van Nostrand Co., Inc, 1946 > > Creative Darkroom Techniques. 1st Ed. Rochester: Eastman Kodak Co., 1973.pp. 264-272 > > Gassan, Arnold. Handbook of Contemporary Photography, 3rd ed. Athens: Handbook Co., 1974 (Lt Impressions). > > Crawford, William. Keepers of Light. NY: Morgan and Morgan, 1979. > > Frederick, Peter. Creative Sunprinting..Early Photographic Prinitng Processes Rediscovered. London: Focal Press, 1980 > > Howell-Koehler, Nancy. Photo Art Processes. Worcester, Mass: Davis Publishing Inc., 1980. > > House, Suda. Artistic Photographic Processes. NY: Amphoto, 1981 > > Gassan, Arnold. The Color Print Book. Rochester: Light Impressions, 1981 > > How to Make Old-Time Photos by John McDonald and Melba Smith Cole. Blue Ridge Summit: Tab books, 1981. chapter on gum 184-215 > > Arnow, Jan. Handbook of Alternative Photographic Processes. NY: Van Nostrand Reinhold Co., 1982 > > Reeve, Catharine and Marilyn Sward. The New Photography. NJ: Prentice Hall, 1986. > > Nettles, Bea. Breaking the Rules. Inky Press Productions, 3rd Ed, 1992 > > On Mar 24, 2010, at 3:15 AM, Alberto Novo wrote: > >> Were there any books on alt-techniques before "Breaking the Rules" published in 1977? I think so, but I have no reference. May you help me? >> Alberto >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From rs at silvergrain.org Wed Mar 24 22:07:50 2010 From: rs at silvergrain.org (Ryuji Suzuki) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 18:07:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: "sustainable market for film" In-Reply-To: References: <66575de71003231055s40f923ak50595515d9547a5c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100324.180750.38371801.lifebook-4234377@silvergrain.org> From: "BOB KISS" Subject: [alt-photo] Re: "sustainable market for film" Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 10:21:59 -0400 > It is nothing to shoot hundreds of thousands of feet of film to make > one movie. Until this dries up there will be some form of film being made. As another example, look at 8mm and 16mm films. They are still supplied by Fujifilm and others. 8mm film was quickly killed in the consumer market by electronic video equipment but the film is still available. But in order to do it, users are forming some sort of a film co-op and making bulk purchases directly from the manufacturer. This is another reason why inefficiency of current distribution and retail system is the weak point in the current film photography industry. > On my trip to Paris in Dec 2008 (to attend the FIE > congress-I am a fencing coach) I was amazed to see how many > European commercial/advertising/fashion photographers > insisted on shooting film, mostly medium format, then > scanning their choices on order to Frotoshop and FTP files > to the magazines and clients. Why do you think that is? By the way, I finished my last bottle of Rhum Barbancourt last month, and I'm thinking about changing. For relaxing times, make it Mt Gay time. -- Ryuji Suzuki "Don't play what's there, play what's not there." (Miles Davis) From alt.list at albertonovo.it Thu Mar 25 09:22:50 2010 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 10:22:50 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: books before 1977 In-Reply-To: <20100324151955.21412.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> References: <20100324091556.26202.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <6194763E-587F-4408-8D1E-149DC01DC30C@montana.net> <20100324151955.21412.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> Message-ID: <20100325092251.16657.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> Chris, may you tell me what (which techniques) is inside the few pages you cited of "Creative Darkroom Techniques", and in "Nonsilver Printing Processes: Four Selections, 1886-1927"? Alberto From zphoto at montana.net Thu Mar 25 14:03:00 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 08:03:00 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: books before 1977 In-Reply-To: <20100325092251.16657.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> References: <20100324091556.26202.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <6194763E-587F-4408-8D1E-149DC01DC30C@montana.net> <20100324151955.21412.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <20100325092251.16657.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> Message-ID: <23889891-970B-42D5-B452-72162234A505@montana.net> Alberto, There were a lot of books written with experimental darkroom techniques around that time...books I researched for my Experimental Photography Workbook, and the Creative one is of that kind. The Kodak book Creative Darkroom Techniques, though, included gum bichromate in my 1973 edition. And silkscreen! The latter is a book that is a reprint compendium of four older books: one on photogravure 1927, Demachy's Photo-Aquatint, Mortimer's Oil and Bromoil Processes of 1909, and Pizzighelli and Hubl's Platinotype of 1886. Betty Hahn was one of the first to do gum printing at Indiana University where Henry Holmes Smith was teaching. But I am not consulting my notes here, just off the top of my head, and I am sure someone will chime in with a correction. Since she graduated in 1966 she would have been doing this before that date, but she was a lone voice in the wilderness. I saw her receive the Honored Educator award at SPE a few years back. She is one of my heroes, to be doing these processes at a time when they were not popular. http://www.museumofnewmexico.org/mfa/ideaphotographic/artists_hahn.html Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Mar 25, 2010, at 3:22 AM, Alberto Novo wrote: > Chris, > may you tell me what (which techniques) is inside the few pages you cited of "Creative Darkroom Techniques", and in "Nonsilver Printing Processes: Four Selections, 1886-1927"? > Alberto > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Thu Mar 25 14:23:32 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 08:23:32 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] digital alt Message-ID: <3CCE60E3-CFC8-465A-B919-9646D23CE9CA@montana.net> Talking about "modern day alt"....soon there will be a category called digital alt. chris > http://theilluminatedfigure.com/blogs/workshops/wet-transfer-printmaking/ Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com From bobkiss at caribsurf.com Thu Mar 25 14:48:30 2010 From: bobkiss at caribsurf.com (BOB KISS) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 10:48:30 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: "sustainable market for film" In-Reply-To: <20100324.180750.38371801.lifebook-4234377@silvergrain.org> References: <66575de71003231055s40f923ak50595515d9547a5c@mail.gmail.com> <20100324.180750.38371801.lifebook-4234377@silvergrain.org> Message-ID: DEAR RYUJI, Why do many Europeans shoot color neg film then scan to digital files? My guess is that color neg film is very forgiving, can handle the strong spot lighting (SBR) that they like, and has a forgiving latitude...not like the Kodachrome 25 and E-6 film on which I cut my professional teeth in the mid 70s. It also renders skin tones and texture very subtly. If you switch to Mount Gay rum make CERTAIN that you get the Extra Old. The Mount Gay Eclipse rum is a headache in a bottle. There is a new locally made rum on the market that is triple distilled and very smoooooooooooooooth. When I can remember the name I will send it along. CHEERS! BOB -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Ryuji Suzuki Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 6:08 PM To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org Subject: [alt-photo] Re: "sustainable market for film" From: "BOB KISS" Subject: [alt-photo] Re: "sustainable market for film" Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 10:21:59 -0400 > It is nothing to shoot hundreds of thousands of feet of film to make > one movie. Until this dries up there will be some form of film being made. As another example, look at 8mm and 16mm films. They are still supplied by Fujifilm and others. 8mm film was quickly killed in the consumer market by electronic video equipment but the film is still available. But in order to do it, users are forming some sort of a film co-op and making bulk purchases directly from the manufacturer. This is another reason why inefficiency of current distribution and retail system is the weak point in the current film photography industry. > On my trip to Paris in Dec 2008 (to attend the FIE > congress-I am a fencing coach) I was amazed to see how many > European commercial/advertising/fashion photographers > insisted on shooting film, mostly medium format, then > scanning their choices on order to Frotoshop and FTP files > to the magazines and clients. Why do you think that is? By the way, I finished my last bottle of Rhum Barbancourt last month, and I'm thinking about changing. For relaxing times, make it Mt Gay time. -- Ryuji Suzuki "Don't play what's there, play what's not there." (Miles Davis) _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4973 (20100325) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From zphoto at montana.net Thu Mar 25 14:57:54 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 08:57:54 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: "sustainable market for film" In-Reply-To: References: <66575de71003231055s40f923ak50595515d9547a5c@mail.gmail.com> <20100324.180750.38371801.lifebook-4234377@silvergrain.org> Message-ID: Don't mean to horn in on your all's conversation, but thanks for this info, Bob. Ransom Distillery makes a great boutique gin that is caramel colored and word is they are also making a boutique rum: http://www.ransomspirits.com/ Itsa tasty little item..for me who does not like gin, I love it. Spicy/sweetish. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Mar 25, 2010, at 8:48 AM, BOB KISS wrote: > . > If you switch to Mount Gay rum make CERTAIN that you get the Extra > Old. The Mount Gay Eclipse rum is a headache in a bottle. There is a new > locally made rum on the market that is triple distilled and very > smoooooooooooooooth. When I can remember the name I will send it along. > CHEERS! > BOB > > By the way, I finished my last bottle of Rhum Barbancourt last > month, and I'm thinking about changing. For relaxing times, > make it Mt Gay time. > Ryuji Suzuki > "Don't play what's there, play what's not there." (Miles Davis) > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From bobkiss at caribsurf.com Thu Mar 25 15:01:56 2010 From: bobkiss at caribsurf.com (BOB KISS) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 11:01:56 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: "sustainable market for film" In-Reply-To: References: <66575de71003231055s40f923ak50595515d9547a5c@mail.gmail.com><20100324.180750.38371801.lifebook-4234377@silvergrain.org> Message-ID: DEAR CHRIS, Very interesting! CHEERS! BOB -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Christina Anderson Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 10:58 AM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: "sustainable market for film" Don't mean to horn in on your all's conversation, but thanks for this info, Bob. Ransom Distillery makes a great boutique gin that is caramel colored and word is they are also making a boutique rum: http://www.ransomspirits.com/ Itsa tasty little item..for me who does not like gin, I love it. Spicy/sweetish. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Mar 25, 2010, at 8:48 AM, BOB KISS wrote: > . > If you switch to Mount Gay rum make CERTAIN that you get the Extra > Old. The Mount Gay Eclipse rum is a headache in a bottle. There is a new > locally made rum on the market that is triple distilled and very > smoooooooooooooooth. When I can remember the name I will send it along. > CHEERS! > BOB > > By the way, I finished my last bottle of Rhum Barbancourt last > month, and I'm thinking about changing. For relaxing times, > make it Mt Gay time. > Ryuji Suzuki > "Don't play what's there, play what's not there." (Miles Davis) > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4973 (20100325) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From alt.list at albertonovo.it Thu Mar 25 15:11:02 2010 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 16:11:02 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] The New Pictorialist Society Message-ID: <20100325151102.22651.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> Have you any info about its present activity? What I have found is that it was founded in 1967, died about in 1990, but I have found also this: http://www.usask.ca/lists/alt-photo-process/2004/feb04/0202.htm Alberto From zphoto at montana.net Thu Mar 25 15:20:03 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 09:20:03 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] price of paper Message-ID: <594C0FF7-314C-40DF-81ED-29D2515D7CB7@montana.net> I noticed Fabriano Artistico EW is $5.13 per sheet at Daniel Smith and $3.09 a sheet at Jerry's Artarama. Is there a place cheaper than Jerry's to buy this or is Jerry's really the lowest? I need to order a large quantity. This is a pretty huge discrepancy! Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com From mustafaumutsarac at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 15:21:36 2010 From: mustafaumutsarac at gmail.com (Mustafa Umut Sarac) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 17:21:36 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: "sustainable market for film" In-Reply-To: References: <66575de71003231055s40f923ak50595515d9547a5c@mail.gmail.com> <20100324.180750.38371801.lifebook-4234377@silvergrain.org> Message-ID: I love to drink different whiskeys , cognacs , beers as I found money. But guys , you must drink Turkish raki or Greek uzo. But you must search the internet and learn how to drink. We call it Lions milk :) Its really lovely and smooth to drink but when time came to stand up , you cant do that :) My first test on Jim Beam was not good , its like sugar in the water. I will order Macallan from my sister when she comes from France. How do you compare it with Jim Beam or JB ? Best , Umut Istanbul From jeremydmoore at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 15:23:44 2010 From: jeremydmoore at gmail.com (Jeremy Moore) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 10:23:44 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: price of paper In-Reply-To: <594C0FF7-314C-40DF-81ED-29D2515D7CB7@montana.net> References: <594C0FF7-314C-40DF-81ED-29D2515D7CB7@montana.net> Message-ID: <66575de71003250823o6ec5251ufa2881e16e354843@mail.gmail.com> Jerry's is the cheapest one I know of, but Cheap Joe's often beats them if you watch for their 20% off coupon codes. -Jeremy- On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Christina Anderson wrote: > I noticed Fabriano Artistico EW is $5.13 per sheet at Daniel Smith and > $3.09 a sheet at Jerry's Artarama. Is there a place cheaper than Jerry's to > buy this or is Jerry's really the lowest? I need to order a large quantity. > This is a pretty huge discrepancy! > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From tom at sobota.net Thu Mar 25 15:28:52 2010 From: tom at sobota.net (Tomas Sobota) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 16:28:52 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: digital alt In-Reply-To: <3CCE60E3-CFC8-465A-B919-9646D23CE9CA@montana.net> References: <3CCE60E3-CFC8-465A-B919-9646D23CE9CA@montana.net> Message-ID: Very similar to photocopier (xerox ?) transfers which actually are nothing new. In the same vein as Polaroid transfers. Are these techniques to be considered "alt"? Difficult to say since nobody ever defined what "alt" should encompass. If "alt" refers only to printing processes (i.e. no pinholes and such) then this inkjet transfers are alt, but not based on any old technique. There can be a "new alt", after all, why not. But perhaps it would be useful to distinguish "old, historical processes" from simply "alt", which can be almost anything. Tom Sobota Madrid, Spain On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 3:23 PM, Christina Anderson wrote: > Talking about "modern day alt"....soon there will be a category called > digital alt. > chris > > > > > http://theilluminatedfigure.com/blogs/workshops/wet-transfer-printmaking/ > > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From zphoto at montana.net Thu Mar 25 15:37:54 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 09:37:54 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: price of paper In-Reply-To: <66575de71003250823o6ec5251ufa2881e16e354843@mail.gmail.com> References: <594C0FF7-314C-40DF-81ED-29D2515D7CB7@montana.net> <66575de71003250823o6ec5251ufa2881e16e354843@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6A91E14A-028C-4C09-8D01-9F9E55AE09D8@montana.net> Oh, PHEW, Jeremy--they sell it for about $4 a sheet, and even with the 20% off it would be $3.20, so more than Jerry's still. Jerry's has free shipping on orders over $175, too, so that will greatly help. Thanks for the speedy reply. BTW Jerry's also sells Gamblin PVA in a quart size for $21: http://search.jerrysartarama.com/search?keywords=pva Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Mar 25, 2010, at 9:23 AM, Jeremy Moore wrote: > Jerry's is the cheapest one I know of, but Cheap Joe's often beats them if > you watch for their 20% off coupon codes. > > -Jeremy- > > On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Christina Anderson wrote: > >> I noticed Fabriano Artistico EW is $5.13 per sheet at Daniel Smith and >> $3.09 a sheet at Jerry's Artarama. Is there a place cheaper than Jerry's to >> buy this or is Jerry's really the lowest? I need to order a large quantity. >> This is a pretty huge discrepancy! >> Chris >> >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From tom at sobota.net Thu Mar 25 15:46:44 2010 From: tom at sobota.net (Tomas Sobota) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 16:46:44 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: "sustainable market for film" In-Reply-To: References: <66575de71003231055s40f923ak50595515d9547a5c@mail.gmail.com> <20100324.180750.38371801.lifebook-4234377@silvergrain.org> Message-ID: Mustafa, They are different things. Macallan is a single-malt whisky from one Scottish distillery. Justerini & Brooks (JB) is a blended whisky, that is to say, a mix from different provenances to get the same flavour each time. Not very interesting. Jim Beam is a Bourbon, an American "whisky" made with a different procedure and also different ingredients (look it up in Wikipedia if you are interested). Bourbon is called whisky for historical reasons, but it is not whisky in a strict sense, it is a different drink. A good rule of thumb is: if you can't spell the name, it is single malt. Ok, Macallan is an exception, but try Laphroaig :-) Ouzo I drink from time to time, easy to get here in Madrid. Turkish raki I have not seen, but looking around I could probably find it too. Is it similar to ouzo? (Sorry, not very alt, this one. But it is raining and cold outside, the right moment for talking about alcoholic beverages, ha ha) Tom Sobota Madrid, Spain On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 4:21 PM, Mustafa Umut Sarac < mustafaumutsarac at gmail.com> wrote: > I love to drink different whiskeys , cognacs , beers as I found money. > But guys , you must drink Turkish raki or Greek uzo. > But you must search the internet and learn how to drink. > We call it Lions milk :) > Its really lovely and smooth to drink but when time came to stand up , you > cant do that :) > My first test on Jim Beam was not good , its like sugar in the water. > I will order Macallan from my sister when she comes from France. > How do you compare it with Jim Beam or JB ? > > Best , > Umut > > Istanbul > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From viapiano at pacbell.net Thu Mar 25 15:54:33 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 08:54:33 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: price of paper References: <594C0FF7-314C-40DF-81ED-29D2515D7CB7@montana.net> Message-ID: <557912F873894F8E9C2A1C5544DC67FF@dell4600> I just bought from DS at $3.70 and free shipping...for small orders that's not bad. But I've mought from Cheap Joe's before for less...on sale... p ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christina Anderson" To: "Alt List" Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 8:20 AM Subject: [alt-photo] price of paper >I noticed Fabriano Artistico EW is $5.13 per sheet at Daniel Smith and >$3.09 a sheet at Jerry's Artarama. Is there a place cheaper than Jerry's >to buy this or is Jerry's really the lowest? I need to order a large >quantity. This is a pretty huge discrepancy! > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Thu Mar 25 15:57:53 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 09:57:53 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: price of paper In-Reply-To: <557912F873894F8E9C2A1C5544DC67FF@dell4600> References: <594C0FF7-314C-40DF-81ED-29D2515D7CB7@montana.net> <557912F873894F8E9C2A1C5544DC67FF@dell4600> Message-ID: How did you get it for $3.70? Is it cheaper in the catalog than online I wonder? chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Mar 25, 2010, at 9:54 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > I just bought from DS at $3.70 and free shipping...for small orders that's not bad. But I've mought from Cheap Joe's before for less...on sale... > > p > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christina Anderson" > To: "Alt List" > Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 8:20 AM > Subject: [alt-photo] price of paper > > >> I noticed Fabriano Artistico EW is $5.13 per sheet at Daniel Smith and $3.09 a sheet at Jerry's Artarama. Is there a place cheaper than Jerry's to buy this or is Jerry's really the lowest? I need to order a large quantity. This is a pretty huge discrepancy! >> Chris >> >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From viapiano at pacbell.net Thu Mar 25 16:29:54 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 09:29:54 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: price of paper References: <594C0FF7-314C-40DF-81ED-29D2515D7CB7@montana.net><557912F873894F8E9C2A1C5544DC67FF@dell4600> Message-ID: <3DCCDBAE4701444A88A1424C8390301B@dell4600> There's always some kind of sale going on...are you on their email list? p ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christina Anderson" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 8:57 AM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: price of paper > How did you get it for $3.70? Is it cheaper in the catalog than online I > wonder? > chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > On Mar 25, 2010, at 9:54 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > >> I just bought from DS at $3.70 and free shipping...for small orders >> that's not bad. But I've mought from Cheap Joe's before for less...on >> sale... >> >> p >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christina Anderson" >> >> To: "Alt List" >> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 8:20 AM >> Subject: [alt-photo] price of paper >> >> >>> I noticed Fabriano Artistico EW is $5.13 per sheet at Daniel Smith and >>> $3.09 a sheet at Jerry's Artarama. Is there a place cheaper than >>> Jerry's to buy this or is Jerry's really the lowest? I need to order a >>> large quantity. This is a pretty huge discrepancy! >>> Chris >>> >>> Christina Z. Anderson >>> christinaZanderson.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From viapiano at pacbell.net Thu Mar 25 16:31:54 2010 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 09:31:54 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: price of paper References: <594C0FF7-314C-40DF-81ED-29D2515D7CB7@montana.net><557912F873894F8E9C2A1C5544DC67FF@dell4600> <3DCCDBAE4701444A88A1424C8390301B@dell4600> Message-ID: 10 pack Fab EW $3.78 per sheet pack of 10 http://www.danielsmith.com/Item--i-202-261-008 p ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Viapiano" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 9:29 AM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: price of paper > There's always some kind of sale going on...are you on their email list? > > p > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christina Anderson" > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" > > Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 8:57 AM > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: price of paper > > >> How did you get it for $3.70? Is it cheaper in the catalog than online I >> wonder? >> chris >> >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> >> On Mar 25, 2010, at 9:54 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: >> >>> I just bought from DS at $3.70 and free shipping...for small orders >>> that's not bad. But I've mought from Cheap Joe's before for less...on >>> sale... >>> >>> p >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christina Anderson" >>> >>> To: "Alt List" >>> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 8:20 AM >>> Subject: [alt-photo] price of paper >>> >>> >>>> I noticed Fabriano Artistico EW is $5.13 per sheet at Daniel Smith and >>>> $3.09 a sheet at Jerry's Artarama. Is there a place cheaper than >>>> Jerry's to buy this or is Jerry's really the lowest? I need to order a >>>> large quantity. This is a pretty huge discrepancy! >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> Christina Z. Anderson >>>> christinaZanderson.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From bobkiss at caribsurf.com Thu Mar 25 16:37:02 2010 From: bobkiss at caribsurf.com (BOB KISS) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 12:37:02 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: "sustainable market for film" In-Reply-To: References: <66575de71003231055s40f923ak50595515d9547a5c@mail.gmail.com><20100324.180750.38371801.lifebook-4234377@silvergrain.org> Message-ID: DEAR UMUT, I have been drinking uzo on and off for a few decades. More recently, my friend working at the UN office here, Spiros, had a collection of many different kinds of uzo and we had many a happy occasion trying them. When he was reassigned to Brussels about 2 years ago he gave me a few bottles. Sadly, they didn't last long! For a nice bourbon, try Maker's Mark For a very smoky, peaty single malt try Lagavulin, my favorite. CHEERS! BOB -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Mustafa Umut Sarac Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 11:22 AM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: "sustainable market for film" I love to drink different whiskeys , cognacs , beers as I found money. But guys , you must drink Turkish raki or Greek uzo. But you must search the internet and learn how to drink. We call it Lions milk :) Its really lovely and smooth to drink but when time came to stand up , you cant do that :) My first test on Jim Beam was not good , its like sugar in the water. I will order Macallan from my sister when she comes from France. How do you compare it with Jim Beam or JB ? Best , Umut Istanbul _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4973 (20100325) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From mail at loris.medici.name Thu Mar 25 16:39:41 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:39:41 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: "sustainable market for film" In-Reply-To: References: <66575de71003231055s40f923ak50595515d9547a5c@mail.gmail.com> <20100324.180750.38371801.lifebook-4234377@silvergrain.org> Message-ID: <725fa8581003250939g7857fc78k488832319cdfa3c3@mail.gmail.com> Hi Tomas, 2010/3/25 Tomas Sobota : > ... > A good rule of thumb is: if you can't spell the name, it is single malt. Ok, > Macallan is an exception, but try Laphroaig :-) Amen to that! :) > Ouzo I drink from time to time, easy to get here in Madrid. Turkish raki I > have not seen, but looking around I could probably find it too. Is it > similar to ouzo? They're very similar - BUT, to me, Ouzo has a milder / softer texture. (If that's the right term!) Barbayannis Green (from Lesvos) would be my first choice, close second would be the infamous (to us perhaps!) Tekirdag Raki. To bring subject back to alt: Both would serve as coating solution addition, perhaps giving the print a nice anise flavor ;) Regards, Loris. From mail at loris.medici.name Thu Mar 25 16:43:43 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:43:43 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: "sustainable market for film" In-Reply-To: <725fa8581003250939g7857fc78k488832319cdfa3c3@mail.gmail.com> References: <66575de71003231055s40f923ak50595515d9547a5c@mail.gmail.com> <20100324.180750.38371801.lifebook-4234377@silvergrain.org> <725fa8581003250939g7857fc78k488832319cdfa3c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <725fa8581003250943s4b2b2d7ct3571cfacc13c72cb@mail.gmail.com> Oops! I should have written "famous"... 2010/3/25 Loris Medici : > ... > close second would be the infamous (to us perhaps!) > Tekirdag Raki. > ... From zphoto at montana.net Thu Mar 25 16:45:21 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 10:45:21 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: price of paper In-Reply-To: References: <594C0FF7-314C-40DF-81ED-29D2515D7CB7@montana.net><557912F873894F8E9C2A1C5544DC67FF@dell4600> <3DCCDBAE4701444A88A1424C8390301B@dell4600> Message-ID: aHA. Should have checked further. Not too bad a price. chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Mar 25, 2010, at 10:31 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > 10 pack Fab EW $3.78 per sheet pack of 10 > > http://www.danielsmith.com/Item--i-202-261-008 > > p > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Viapiano" > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" > Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 9:29 AM > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: price of paper > > >> There's always some kind of sale going on...are you on their email list? >> >> p >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christina Anderson" >> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" >> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 8:57 AM >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: price of paper >> >> >>> How did you get it for $3.70? Is it cheaper in the catalog than online I wonder? >>> chris >>> >>> Christina Z. Anderson >>> christinaZanderson.com >>> >>> On Mar 25, 2010, at 9:54 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: >>> >>>> I just bought from DS at $3.70 and free shipping...for small orders that's not bad. But I've mought from Cheap Joe's before for less...on sale... >>>> >>>> p >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christina Anderson" >>>> To: "Alt List" >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 8:20 AM >>>> Subject: [alt-photo] price of paper >>>> >>>> >>>>> I noticed Fabriano Artistico EW is $5.13 per sheet at Daniel Smith and $3.09 a sheet at Jerry's Artarama. Is there a place cheaper than Jerry's to buy this or is Jerry's really the lowest? I need to order a large quantity. This is a pretty huge discrepancy! >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>>> Christina Z. Anderson >>>>> christinaZanderson.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Thu Mar 25 16:47:23 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:47:23 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: price of paper In-Reply-To: References: <594C0FF7-314C-40DF-81ED-29D2515D7CB7@montana.net> <557912F873894F8E9C2A1C5544DC67FF@dell4600> <3DCCDBAE4701444A88A1424C8390301B@dell4600> Message-ID: <725fa8581003250947g30ac6446vc04a640eec31d479@mail.gmail.com> Those are nice prices... (3.09 - 3.80) Now I feel anger against our importation tax policy. We're much closer to the source, (I'm in Turkey remember), but Fabriano prices are considerably higher... Grrr!!! From zphoto at montana.net Thu Mar 25 16:47:17 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 10:47:17 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: price of paper In-Reply-To: <3DCCDBAE4701444A88A1424C8390301B@dell4600> References: <594C0FF7-314C-40DF-81ED-29D2515D7CB7@montana.net><557912F873894F8E9C2A1C5544DC67FF@dell4600> <3DCCDBAE4701444A88A1424C8390301B@dell4600> Message-ID: <2B0BFAA5-E4C9-4AC5-9825-BCB77EAE84EB@montana.net> Yes I am, but lately with email I have not been paying attention to the promos that arrive. I did do the one 20% promo, so IF there was a 20% on the $3.78 pack that WOULD be cheaper than Jerry's. FAEW used to be $2.69 a sheet so it has gone up. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Mar 25, 2010, at 10:29 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > There's always some kind of sale going on...are you on their email list? > > p > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christina Anderson" > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" > Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 8:57 AM > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: price of paper > > >> How did you get it for $3.70? Is it cheaper in the catalog than online I wonder? >> chris >> >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> >> On Mar 25, 2010, at 9:54 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: >> >>> I just bought from DS at $3.70 and free shipping...for small orders that's not bad. But I've mought from Cheap Joe's before for less...on sale... >>> >>> p >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christina Anderson" >>> To: "Alt List" >>> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 8:20 AM >>> Subject: [alt-photo] price of paper >>> >>> >>>> I noticed Fabriano Artistico EW is $5.13 per sheet at Daniel Smith and $3.09 a sheet at Jerry's Artarama. Is there a place cheaper than Jerry's to buy this or is Jerry's really the lowest? I need to order a large quantity. This is a pretty huge discrepancy! >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> Christina Z. Anderson >>>> christinaZanderson.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From tom at sobota.net Thu Mar 25 19:45:03 2010 From: tom at sobota.net (Tomas Sobota) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 20:45:03 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: "sustainable market for film" In-Reply-To: <725fa8581003250939g7857fc78k488832319cdfa3c3@mail.gmail.com> References: <66575de71003231055s40f923ak50595515d9547a5c@mail.gmail.com> <20100324.180750.38371801.lifebook-4234377@silvergrain.org> <725fa8581003250939g7857fc78k488832319cdfa3c3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Loris, Anis flavour! Hey, that reminds me that years back (some 25 actually) I used anetol for making paper negs more transparent. Anetol is of course the active component of anis, so this thread is decidedly alt :-) The negs are now less transparent than then, but they still smell strongly. Tekirdag Raki, eh? I'll ask around in some d?ner kebab places ... And yes, I agree with Bob, Lagavulin is my favorite too. A very strong peat moss taste indeed. Some years ago, I had a very interesting cultural interchange with a Scottish friend. I told him (almost) all I knew about Spanish wine and he instructed me about single malts. He also gave me a bottle: Lagavulin it was. Back then I had to go buy it in Andorra and smuggle it to Spain, but now it's easy to get here. Some 50 euros per bottle, the 25 years vintage. cheers Tom On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 5:39 PM, Loris Medici wrote: > Hi Tomas, > > 2010/3/25 Tomas Sobota : > > ... > > A good rule of thumb is: if you can't spell the name, it is single malt. > Ok, > > Macallan is an exception, but try Laphroaig :-) > > Amen to that! :) > > > Ouzo I drink from time to time, easy to get here in Madrid. Turkish raki > I > > have not seen, but looking around I could probably find it too. Is it > > similar to ouzo? > > They're very similar - BUT, to me, Ouzo has a milder / softer texture. > (If that's the right term!) Barbayannis Green (from Lesvos) would be > my first choice, close second would be the infamous (to us perhaps!) > Tekirdag Raki. > > To bring subject back to alt: Both would serve as coating solution > addition, perhaps giving the print a nice anise flavor ;) > > Regards, > Loris. > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From rs at silvergrain.org Thu Mar 25 21:15:56 2010 From: rs at silvergrain.org (Ryuji Suzuki) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 17:15:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: "sustainable market for film" In-Reply-To: References: <20100324.180750.38371801.lifebook-4234377@silvergrain.org> Message-ID: <20100325.171556.113316916.lifebook-4234377@silvergrain.org> From: "BOB KISS" Subject: [alt-photo] Re: "sustainable market for film" Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 10:48:30 -0400 > Why do many Europeans shoot color neg film then scan to digital > files? My guess is that color neg film is very forgiving, can handle the > strong spot lighting (SBR) that they like, and has a forgiving > latitude...not like the Kodachrome 25 and E-6 film on which I cut my > professional teeth in the mid 70s. It also renders skin tones and texture > very subtly. I see. I think I see a trend that this side of atlantic is so used to using a huge amount of translucent powder on skin and use larger softbox than necessary to control for that... > If you switch to Mount Gay rum make CERTAIN that you get the Extra > Old. Thanks for the advice but that was also my intention. When I had Barbancourt I always got 5 stars... -- Ryuji Suzuki "People are sick in this country because they are poisoned [...] they poison themselves. To my way of thinking why about 90% of people are sick is because they eat shit---Bill Maher (2007)" From gneissgirl at icehouse.net Thu Mar 25 22:22:03 2010 From: gneissgirl at icehouse.net (Mary Donato) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 16:22:03 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] re: price of paper Message-ID: <4BABE20B.8080609@icehouse.net> Dick Blick has discounted prices for 10 or more sheets. FAEW 140 lb is $3.10 if you buy in bulk. They have special deals on shipping occasionally, too. Might be worth checking out. Just received some soft press from them to try for gum printing. http://www.dickblick.com/products/fabriano-artistico-extra-white-watercolor-paper/ Cheers, Mary -- "Wag more, bark more, bite less" From zphoto at montana.net Thu Mar 25 22:37:48 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 16:37:48 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: price of paper In-Reply-To: <4BABE20B.8080609@icehouse.net> References: <4BABE20B.8080609@icehouse.net> Message-ID: <27A38BA5-C777-4FE8-A5DE-6FFB54396445@montana.net> Thanks, Mary, Thanks to all who answered, too. It looks like most places are selling it within the $3 range per sheet with Jerry's being cheaper than Dick Blick by .5 cents. I went ahead and ordered from Jerry's a bundle of the stuff. I figured it doesn't go bad, and it seems it has gone up in price, and with no shipping on orders over $175 that was the best deal today to be had. My problem is that when I teach a class it is almost easier to stock bulk items of the supplies and sell a packet or piecemeal to students. Otherwise their orders are delayed, aren't ordered, are more expensive, etc. etc. etc. But how to afford this, when a paper order is easily $600! But one tip I'll share--shared it before--is the absolutely cheapest place for all kinds of bottles. For instance, here: http://www.specialtybottle.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=216 Is a 4 oz plastic bottle for as little as 23 cents each--great for storing stock pigment solutions. Squirt a 15ml tube of pigment into it and fill with gum. I use a weaker dilution and since I use so much, I mix each color in a 500ml plastic bottle but the 8 oz at specialty bottle are only in the 30 cent range, too, much cheaper than a drug store: http://www.specialtybottle.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=218 Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Mar 25, 2010, at 4:22 PM, Mary Donato wrote: > Dick Blick has discounted prices for 10 or more sheets. FAEW 140 lb is $3.10 if you buy in bulk. They have special deals on shipping occasionally, too. Might be worth checking out. > Just received some soft press from them to try for gum printing. > > http://www.dickblick.com/products/fabriano-artistico-extra-white-watercolor-paper/ > > Cheers, > Mary > > -- > "Wag more, bark more, bite less" > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From jseigel at panix.com Fri Mar 26 04:23:23 2010 From: jseigel at panix.com (Judy Seigel) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 00:23:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: books before 1977 In-Reply-To: <20100324091556.26202.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> References: <20100324091556.26202.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Mar 2010, Alberto Novo wrote: > Were there any books on alt-techniques before "Breaking the Rules" published > in 1977? I think so, but I have no reference. May you help me? > Alberto Aside from the relatively recent books already mentioned... (yes, there was intelligent life on earth before the Internet)... the way photo processes were learned was exactly through books (tho there were of course classes and schools and private gurus/inventors, they were not easily reached by the populace at large.) Having entered the field at what (in retrospect) was the moment when the original "texts" seemed out of date & sold cheaply, but before they became collector's items and (I gather) vanished from the cheap stacks at Strand... I acquired quite a few... And by another cosmic coincidence, this very day, in a doomed gesture at order in the midst of chaos, I "organized" a bunch of them on a shelf together (tho not yet by subject or date --- do I have to???) So I ran upstairs and grabbed a bunch from the end of the shelf... as follows: "Collodion and the Making of Wet-Plate Negatives" a 34-page pamphlet from Eastman Kodak, dated 1935. "Photographic Control Processes" by Franklin I. Jordan, FRPS, 1937 hard cover (from the Evansville Public Library, according to the fly leaf, but with handwritten note that "This book is no longer property of Evansville Public Library, but belongs to: George S Kelly, Basking Ridge, N.J." (The price pencilled in is $3.) "Modern Heliographic Processes" by Ernst Lietze, mechanical engineer -- a 1974 reprint from the Visual Studies Workshop (Rochester, NY) of the D. Van Nostrand Co. 1888 original. "The Silver Sunbeam" by J. Towler, M.D, hard cover -- a 1969 facsimile edition (courtesy Beaumont Newhall) of the 1864 original. "Practical Printing Processes" edited by Frank R. Fraprie, is No. 10 in the Practical Photography series (pencilled-in price on my copy is $5), original from the American Photographic Publishing Company, 1936. Paperback, 63 pages. Also in the Practical Photography series (#12) is "A Manual of Bromoil & Transfer," 1927, paperback 5 1/4 by 7 1/2 inches, 58 pages + 22 pages of ads. "ENLARGEMENTS -- THEIR PRODUCTION and FINISH" by G. Rodwell Smith, is hardcover, from "The Amateur Photography" Library, No. 25, ($4 used) and all of 145 pages, including several pages of ads, front and back, but only 4 3/4 x 7 inches. "Carbon Printing" by William Weston, from the Gennert Photographic Library, $5, similar in format to the above, copyright 1896, signed by owner "F. P. King." and, "The Photo-Oleograph Process, a Combination of Painting and Photography" by A. M. Marton, 1900. Cover copy adds: "The Art & Science of Painting and Photography." (Needless to say, I love every crumbling inch of them.) Judy From mail at loris.medici.name Fri Mar 26 06:07:49 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 08:07:49 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: price of paper In-Reply-To: <27A38BA5-C777-4FE8-A5DE-6FFB54396445@montana.net> References: <4BABE20B.8080609@icehouse.net> <27A38BA5-C777-4FE8-A5DE-6FFB54396445@montana.net> Message-ID: <6B41049280CB4DAEBD56A41DAB2E5200@altinyildiz.trk> I prefer urine sample containers. They're cheap, have good leakproof caps and wide mouths - letting you to re-stir easily, right before usage... It's something very similar to this one: http://www.mountainside-medical.com/products/Urine-Specimen-Cup,-Sterile.htm l Regards, Loris. -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf Of Christina Anderson Sent: Friday, March 26, 2010 12:38 AM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: price of paper ... But one tip I'll share--shared it before--is the absolutely cheapest place for all kinds of bottles. For instance, here: http://www.specialtybottle.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=216 Is a 4 oz plastic bottle for as little as 23 cents each--great for storing stock pigment solutions. Squirt a 15ml tube of pigment into it and fill with gum. I use a weaker dilution and since I use so much, I mix each color in a 500ml plastic bottle but the 8 oz at specialty bottle are only in the 30 cent range, too, much cheaper than a drug store: http://www.specialtybottle.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=218 From alt.list at albertonovo.it Fri Mar 26 10:50:06 2010 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 11:50:06 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: books before 1977 In-Reply-To: <6194763E-587F-4408-8D1E-149DC01DC30C@montana.net> References: <20100324091556.26202.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <6194763E-587F-4408-8D1E-149DC01DC30C@montana.net> Message-ID: <20100326105006.17174.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> > One thing I will say--I keep my biblio in chronological order, and there is a real...lull...in alt stuff when modernism was the rage. I have my file folders in 5 year periods, and from let's say 1940-1980 it wasn't really popular and my files are thin or empty and then 1980 on fat. Now THAT's a real scientific way to calculate interest.... I have made this type of research some times, the first was when I was gathering the bibliography on mercury analysis for my thesis about in 1975. The increasing interest towards the environmental research was visible by the graph of the number of articles vs. years. The same about the number of patents on blueprint: a bell-shaped figure, peaking in 1937 with 8 patents in that year and reaching zero in 1945 due to the conversion from blueprint to whiteprint. Although not really fully scientific (you can miss an article, etc.), it is a good starting point for qualitatively figure the evolution of a phenomenon. If you (and Judy, and whoever has a good file of specialized bibliography) have time, try building such an histogram ranging from 1900 up to present, then let me say. For a better understanding, it should be normalized to the world book production. Alberto From brucerccampbell at sbcglobal.net Sat Mar 27 14:27:43 2010 From: brucerccampbell at sbcglobal.net (Bruce Campbell) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 07:27:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [alt-photo] =?utf-8?q?Truth_Beauty_=E2=80=93_Pictorialism_and_the_Photograph?= =?utf-8?q?_as_Art___1845-1945?= Message-ID: <359369.32019.qm@web83813.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Truth Beauty ? Pictorialism and the Photograph as Art?? 1845-1945 ? This show will be at the Cincinnati Ohio Art Museum from 21 May to 8 August 2010. ? The show includes works by Alfred Stieglitz, Edward Steichen, Julia Margaret Cameron, Alfred Landon Coburn, Robert Demachy and many others.? The show also includes works from United Kingdom, Europe, Japan and Australia artist.? Included are Gum Bichromate, Platinum, Photogravure, Bromoil, Carbon, Silver Gelatin and other prints. ?Bruce From brucerccampbell at sbcglobal.net Sat Mar 27 14:27:43 2010 From: brucerccampbell at sbcglobal.net (Bruce Campbell) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 07:27:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [alt-photo] =?utf-8?q?Truth_Beauty_=E2=80=93_Pictorialism_and_the_Photograph?= =?utf-8?q?_as_Art___1845-1945?= Message-ID: <359369.32019.qm@web83813.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Truth Beauty ? Pictorialism and the Photograph as Art?? 1845-1945 ? This show will be at the Cincinnati Ohio Art Museum from 21 May to 8 August 2010. ? The show includes works by Alfred Stieglitz, Edward Steichen, Julia Margaret Cameron, Alfred Landon Coburn, Robert Demachy and many others.? The show also includes works from United Kingdom, Europe, Japan and Australia artist.? Included are Gum Bichromate, Platinum, Photogravure, Bromoil, Carbon, Silver Gelatin and other prints. ?Bruce From cryberg at comcast.net Sat Mar 27 20:47:19 2010 From: cryberg at comcast.net (Charles Ryberg) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 13:47:19 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] source for metal frames? In-Reply-To: References: <20100324091556.26202.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> Message-ID: <4D3BF0312D79481CAA746723A3952527@hpPC> Some years ago I had a catalog which listed metal frames (they come in pairs and you buy two pairs, one for each dimension) in a wide selection of colors. Now that I need a frame I can't find it. suggestions? I'm in the USA. Thanks Charles Portland Oregon From zphoto at montana.net Sat Mar 27 20:49:41 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 14:49:41 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: source for metal frames? In-Reply-To: <4D3BF0312D79481CAA746723A3952527@hpPC> References: <20100324091556.26202.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <4D3BF0312D79481CAA746723A3952527@hpPC> Message-ID: <82B9258B-DA99-4B55-A9E1-63217BC884F7@montana.net> framingsupplies.com is excellent. chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Mar 27, 2010, at 2:47 PM, Charles Ryberg wrote: > Some years ago I had a catalog which listed metal frames (they come in pairs and you buy two pairs, one for each dimension) in a wide selection of colors. Now that I need a frame I can't find it. suggestions? I'm in the USA. > Thanks Charles Portland Oregon > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From payral at gmail.com Sat Mar 27 21:01:42 2010 From: payral at gmail.com (Philippe Ayral) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 22:01:42 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: source for metal frames? In-Reply-To: <82B9258B-DA99-4B55-A9E1-63217BC884F7@montana.net> References: <20100324091556.26202.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <4D3BF0312D79481CAA746723A3952527@hpPC> <82B9258B-DA99-4B55-A9E1-63217BC884F7@montana.net> Message-ID: <282346261003271401g2e8c50dmf8d25e22da727389@mail.gmail.com> I bought Nielsen frame by pairs from Calumet. 2010/3/27 Christina Anderson > framingsupplies.com is excellent. > chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > On Mar 27, 2010, at 2:47 PM, Charles Ryberg wrote: > > > Some years ago I had a catalog which listed metal frames (they come in > pairs and you buy two pairs, one for each dimension) in a wide selection of > colors. Now that I need a frame I can't find it. suggestions? I'm in the > USA. > > Thanks Charles Portland Oregon > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > -- Philippe Ayral http://pagesperso-orange.fr/payral/ From amyhgeorge at hotmail.com Sat Mar 27 21:22:16 2010 From: amyhgeorge at hotmail.com (Amy Holmes George) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 17:22:16 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: source for metal frames? In-Reply-To: <82B9258B-DA99-4B55-A9E1-63217BC884F7@montana.net> References: <20100324091556.26202.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it>, , <4D3BF0312D79481CAA746723A3952527@hpPC>, <82B9258B-DA99-4B55-A9E1-63217BC884F7@montana.net> Message-ID: Agreed, framingsupplies.com is great. They carry metal frames made by Nielsen, and they are priced more affordably than Light Impressions. Amy Holmes George > From: zphoto at montana.net > Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 14:49:41 -0600 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: source for metal frames? > > framingsupplies.com is excellent. > chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > On Mar 27, 2010, at 2:47 PM, Charles Ryberg wrote: > > > Some years ago I had a catalog which listed metal frames (they come in pairs and you buy two pairs, one for each dimension) in a wide selection of colors. Now that I need a frame I can't find it. suggestions? I'm in the USA. > > Thanks Charles Portland Oregon > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID27925::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:032010_2 From tsll at localnet.com Sat Mar 27 22:18:10 2010 From: tsll at localnet.com (therold (terry) lindquist) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 17:18:10 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: source for metal frames? In-Reply-To: <4D3BF0312D79481CAA746723A3952527@hpPC> References: <20100324091556.26202.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <4D3BF0312D79481CAA746723A3952527@hpPC> Message-ID: <3552947F-4F8B-473B-A125-1400997A7B1A@localnet.com> The metal (both black & aluminum) frames that the store HOBBY LOBBY carries are a good buy for the money.... "normally" discounted price of 50%. terry On Mar 27, 2010, at 3:47 PM, Charles Ryberg wrote: > Some years ago I had a catalog which listed metal frames (they come > in pairs and you buy two pairs, one for each dimension) in a wide > selection of colors. Now that I need a frame I can't find it. > suggestions? I'm in the USA. > Thanks Charles Portland Oregon > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From erie at shelbyvilledesign.com Sat Mar 27 22:37:05 2010 From: erie at shelbyvilledesign.com (erie patsellis) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 22:37:05 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: source for metal frames? In-Reply-To: <4D3BF0312D79481CAA746723A3952527@hpPC> References: <20100324091556.26202.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it>, , <4D3BF0312D79481CAA746723A3952527@hpPC> Message-ID: I've bought significant quantities from Gemini Framing supply for the studio, I'll dig up the contact info monday. While they sell to the trade, at real wholesale prices, it'snot terribly hard to set up an account and pay with a debit/credit card. Their service is excellent and they carry lots of various wood and metal frame lines, mat board, glass, pretty much anything a framing shop would require, and then some. erie > From: cryberg at comcast.net > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 13:47:19 -0700 > Subject: [alt-photo] source for metal frames? > > Some years ago I had a catalog which listed metal frames (they come in pairs > and you buy two pairs, one for each dimension) in a wide selection of > colors. Now that I need a frame I can't find it. suggestions? I'm in the > USA. > Thanks Charles Portland Oregon > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with gadgets on Windows Live Spaces http://discoverspaces.live.com?source=hmtag1&loc=us From daviddrakephoto at sympatico.ca Sat Mar 27 23:07:36 2010 From: daviddrakephoto at sympatico.ca (david drake) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 19:07:36 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: source for metal frames? In-Reply-To: <4D3BF0312D79481CAA746723A3952527@hpPC> References: <20100324091556.26202.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <4D3BF0312D79481CAA746723A3952527@hpPC> Message-ID: Charles, I have ordered from AmericanFrame.com At the time, they seemed reasonable. They also have a nice site where you can see the different frames and what each finish will look like. david drake On 27-Mar-10, at 4:47 PM, Charles Ryberg wrote: > Some years ago I had a catalog which listed metal frames (they come > in pairs and you buy two pairs, one for each dimension) in a wide > selection of colors. Now that I need a frame I can't find it. > suggestions? I'm in the USA. > Thanks Charles Portland Oregon > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > david drake photography www.daviddrakephotography.com From cryberg at comcast.net Sun Mar 28 00:28:42 2010 From: cryberg at comcast.net (Charles Ryberg) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 17:28:42 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: source for metal frames?--Thanks All! In-Reply-To: References: <20100324091556.26202.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it><4D3BF0312D79481CAA746723A3952527@hpPC> Message-ID: <2AB8CAAABA02406186A07F77BB0B9805@hpPC> Thanks for all the help. I did order a green frame from AmericanFrame which looks like it will be perfect. The catalog I had listed frames in many more colors than I find on the sites I've seen--30--maybe even 50. But I did find what I need, so I'm happy. Charles Portland Or From dougcollins99 at gmail.com Sun Mar 28 03:59:11 2010 From: dougcollins99 at gmail.com (douglas collins) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:59:11 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: =?windows-1252?q?Truth_Beauty_=96_Pictorialism_and_the_Photog?= =?windows-1252?q?raph_as_Art_1845-1945?= In-Reply-To: <359369.32019.qm@web83813.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <359369.32019.qm@web83813.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This is a great show - I saw it at the Eastman House - but at least as of today it is not listed on the Cincinnati Art Museum's website as an upcoming show. Am I missing something there? On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Bruce Campbell < brucerccampbell at sbcglobal.net> wrote: > Truth Beauty ? Pictorialism and the Photograph as Art 1845-1945 > > This show will be at the Cincinnati Ohio Art Museum from 21 May to 8 August > 2010. > > The show includes works by Alfred Stieglitz, Edward Steichen, Julia > Margaret Cameron, Alfred Landon Coburn, Robert Demachy and many others. The > show also includes works from United Kingdom, Europe, Japan and Australia > artist. Included are Gum Bichromate, Platinum, Photogravure, Bromoil, > Carbon, Silver Gelatin and other prints. > Bruce > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > -- douglas collins www.douglascollinspictures.com cell 646-678-0172 From frangst at gmail.com Sun Mar 28 04:14:39 2010 From: frangst at gmail.com (francis schanberger) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 00:14:39 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: =?windows-1252?q?Truth_Beauty_=96_Pictorialism_and_the_Photog?= =?windows-1252?q?raph_as_Art_1845-1945?= In-Reply-To: References: <359369.32019.qm@web83813.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4c6fbba01003272114y71650b55iba0c2b481b49a72c@mail.gmail.com> It will be at the Taft Museum of Art. http://www.taftmuseum.org/pages/upcoming.php -francis On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 11:59 PM, douglas collins wrote: > This is a great show - I saw it at the Eastman House - but at least as of > today it is not listed on the Cincinnati Art Museum's website as an > upcoming > show. Am I missing something there? > > > On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Bruce Campbell < > brucerccampbell at sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > Truth Beauty ? Pictorialism and the Photograph as Art 1845-1945 > > > > This show will be at the Cincinnati Ohio Art Museum from 21 May to 8 > August > > 2010. > > > > The show includes works by Alfred Stieglitz, Edward Steichen, Julia > > Margaret Cameron, Alfred Landon Coburn, Robert Demachy and many others. > The > > show also includes works from United Kingdom, Europe, Japan and Australia > > artist. Included are Gum Bichromate, Platinum, Photogravure, Bromoil, > > Carbon, Silver Gelatin and other prints. > > Bruce > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > > > > -- > douglas collins > www.douglascollinspictures.com > cell 646-678-0172 > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > -- francis schanberger www.frangst.com From jon at sharperstill.com Sun Mar 28 07:46:07 2010 From: jon at sharperstill.com (Jon Reid) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 18:46:07 +1100 Subject: [alt-photo] Cranes Platinotype Message-ID: <799FFBE7-636A-4790-876B-67FF4D5FC7DF@sharperstill.com> Hi all, Photographers Formulary have new stock of Cranes Platinotype (Crane's 90# Cover). Has anyone tried it? Does anyone know whether the black spot issue was fixed? Jon From blumer.r at insightbb.com Sun Mar 28 12:47:31 2010 From: blumer.r at insightbb.com (Ralph and Linda Blumer) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 08:47:31 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] (no subject) Message-ID: <8115BF2E461549DA89233421566C9699@ownerPC> Linda www.lindablumer.com I would say to any artist: 'Don't be repressed in your work, dare to experiment, consider any urge, if in a new direction all the better.' - Edward Weston - to Ansel Adams From brucerccampbell at sbcglobal.net Sun Mar 28 16:16:36 2010 From: brucerccampbell at sbcglobal.net (Bruce Campbell) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 09:16:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: =?utf-8?q?Truth_Beauty_=E2=80=93_Pictorialism_and_the_Photogr?= =?utf-8?q?aph_as_Art_1845-1945?= In-Reply-To: <4c6fbba01003272114y71650b55iba0c2b481b49a72c@mail.gmail.com> References: <359369.32019.qm@web83813.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4c6fbba01003272114y71650b55iba0c2b481b49a72c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <842092.79516.qm@web83814.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Francis Thanks for the corrected location for the show. I misread were the exhibit will be displayed at. ?My error. ?Bruce ________________________________ From: francis schanberger To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Sent: Sun, March 28, 2010 12:14:39 AM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Truth Beauty ? Pictorialism and the Photograph as Art 1845-1945 It will be at the Taft Museum of Art. http://www.taftmuseum.org/pages/upcoming.php -francis On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 11:59 PM, douglas collins wrote: > This is a great show - I saw it at the Eastman House - but at least as of > today it is not listed on the Cincinnati Art Museum's website as an > upcoming > show.? Am I missing something there? > > > On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Bruce Campbell < > brucerccampbell at sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > > Truth Beauty ? Pictorialism and the Photograph as Art? 1845-1945 > > > > This show will be at the Cincinnati Ohio Art Museum from 21 May to 8 > August > > 2010. > > > > The show includes works by Alfred Stieglitz, Edward Steichen, Julia > > Margaret Cameron, Alfred Landon Coburn, Robert Demachy and many others. >? The > > show also includes works from United Kingdom, Europe, Japan and Australia > > artist.? Included are Gum Bichromate, Platinum, Photogravure, Bromoil, > > Carbon, Silver Gelatin and other prints. > >? Bruce > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > > > > -- > douglas collins > www.douglascollinspictures.com > cell 646-678-0172 > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > -- francis schanberger www.frangst.com _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From jeremydmoore at gmail.com Mon Mar 29 21:02:15 2010 From: jeremydmoore at gmail.com (Jeremy Moore) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:02:15 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: source for metal frames? In-Reply-To: References: <20100324091556.26202.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <4D3BF0312D79481CAA746723A3952527@hpPC> Message-ID: <66575de71003291402x18d926aau44e631cdf55cd9c2@mail.gmail.com> I'm a fan of www.framedestination.com It helps that it's local and the owner, Mark, is a guy driven by customer service. He participates in online forums (he's a photog himself) and he also sweet-talked me with a very cool tour of their facility. No affiliation, but they get my money. -Jeremy- > > Some years ago I had a catalog which listed metal frames (they come in >> pairs and you buy two pairs, one for each dimension) in a wide selection of >> colors. Now that I need a frame I can't find it. suggestions? I'm in the >> USA. >> Thanks Charles Portland Oregon >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> > david drake photography > www.daviddrakephotography.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From alt.list at albertonovo.it Tue Mar 30 09:27:55 2010 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:27:55 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] acid paper Message-ID: <20100330092755.10944.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> I am trying, without any result, to remember the name of a neutral or sub-acid paper. In the former alt-list it was discussed some years ago. May you help me? Alberto From wrleigh at gmail.com Tue Mar 30 12:52:58 2010 From: wrleigh at gmail.com (Bill Leigh) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 08:52:58 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: source for metal frames? In-Reply-To: <66575de71003291402x18d926aau44e631cdf55cd9c2@mail.gmail.com> References: <20100324091556.26202.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <4D3BF0312D79481CAA746723A3952527@hpPC> <66575de71003291402x18d926aau44e631cdf55cd9c2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1952df671003300552i694045b8ye30ffa0706a925d5@mail.gmail.com> I've been using Metropolitan Picture Framing (metroframe.com). Good prices and good customer service. On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 5:02 PM, Jeremy Moore wrote: > I'm a fan of www.framedestination.com It helps that it's local and the > owner, Mark, is a guy driven by customer service. He participates in online > forums (he's a photog himself) and he also sweet-talked me with a very cool > tour of their facility. No affiliation, but they get my money. > > -Jeremy- > > > > > > Some years ago I had a catalog which listed metal frames (they come in > >> pairs and you buy two pairs, one for each dimension) in a wide selection > of > >> colors. Now that I need a frame I can't find it. suggestions? I'm in > the > >> USA. > >> Thanks Charles Portland Oregon > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > >> > >> > > david drake photography > > www.daviddrakephotography.com > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > -- Bill Leigh wrleigh at gmail.com From zphoto at montana.net Tue Mar 30 13:37:40 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 07:37:40 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: acid paper In-Reply-To: <20100330092755.10944.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> References: <20100330092755.10944.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> Message-ID: <94DB0EFC-A2E5-4F4F-80A5-911996AFD08E@montana.net> Was it Buxton or Arches Platine? Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Mar 30, 2010, at 3:27 AM, Alberto Novo wrote: > I am trying, without any result, to remember the name of a neutral or sub-acid paper. In the former alt-list it was discussed some years ago. > May you help me? > Alberto > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From alt.list at albertonovo.it Tue Mar 30 15:14:41 2010 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 17:14:41 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: acid paper In-Reply-To: <94DB0EFC-A2E5-4F4F-80A5-911996AFD08E@montana.net> References: <20100330092755.10944.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <94DB0EFC-A2E5-4F4F-80A5-911996AFD08E@montana.net> Message-ID: <20100330151441.13561.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> > Was it Buxton or Arches Platine? > Chris Not these. It was about a paper proposed for iron processes, maybe signaled just from you. Alberto www.grupponamias.com From zphoto at montana.net Tue Mar 30 15:20:33 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 09:20:33 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: acid paper In-Reply-To: <20100330151441.13561.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> References: <20100330092755.10944.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <94DB0EFC-A2E5-4F4F-80A5-911996AFD08E@montana.net> <20100330151441.13561.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> Message-ID: Well, I know that Buxton is one of Ware's favorites, and Arches Platine used to be sized with a more acid size (rosapina or something?). But Buxton is called something like Ashton in the States, and is a bit expensive for my tastes. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Mar 30, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Alberto Novo wrote: >> Was it Buxton or Arches Platine? >> Chris > > Not these. It was about a paper proposed for iron processes, maybe signaled just from you. > Alberto > www.grupponamias.com > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Tue Mar 30 15:27:50 2010 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 18:27:50 +0300 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: acid paper In-Reply-To: References: <20100330092755.10944.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <94DB0EFC-A2E5-4F4F-80A5-911996AFD08E@montana.net> <20100330151441.13561.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> Message-ID: <725fa8581003300827h3633f915j6ab882cc949c3430@mail.gmail.com> Alum-rosin sizing? A paper with rosin sizing is Weston Diploma Parchment (pH 6.5)... (But I presume this is obvious and Alberto is looking for else - wanted to mention anyway.) 2010/3/30 Christina Anderson : > Well, I know that Buxton is one of Ware's favorites, and Arches Platine used to be sized with a more acid size (rosapina or something?). > > But Buxton is called something like Ashton in the States, and is a bit expensive for my tastes. > Chris > > On Mar 30, 2010, at 9:14 AM, Alberto Novo wrote: > >>> Was it Buxton or Arches Platine? >>> Chris >> >> Not these. It was about a paper proposed for iron processes, maybe signaled just from you. >> Alberto From jseigel at panix.com Tue Mar 30 23:22:49 2010 From: jseigel at panix.com (Judy Seigel) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 19:22:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: acid paper In-Reply-To: References: <20100330092755.10944.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <94DB0EFC-A2E5-4F4F-80A5-911996AFD08E@montana.net> <20100330151441.13561.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Mar 2010, Christina Anderson wrote: > Well, I know that Buxton is one of Ware's favorites, and Arches Platine > used to be sized with a more acid size (rosapina or something?). > > But Buxton is called something like Ashton in the States, and is a bit > expensive for my tastes. Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com I bought some Buxton in the long long ago, probably when Mike Ware was still on the list and, um, praised it. I may suffer from a character flaw (or three), but I couldn't get used to working on a paper that was worth more per cubic inch than I am... It made me so uptight nothing worked... My feeling, nowadays is that one's paper and other materials should be like trash, expendable, not to give a damn about... My time and effort and inspiration should rule. (And now that you mention it, I probably still have a couple of sheets of Buxton in a folder somewhere.... they were so precious I could never mess them up with paint.) I suspect, BTW, that the price has come down somewhat.... or those 6 by 6 inch prints mentioned recently might be the rule. J. From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Wed Mar 31 01:06:26 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 21:06:26 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: acid paper In-Reply-To: References: <20100330092755.10944.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <94DB0EFC-A2E5-4F4F-80A5-911996AFD08E@montana.net> <20100330151441.13561.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> Message-ID: <2872DEDB-5C1A-486D-8CE9-41716E8F2D7A@bellsouth.net> Hi Judy, Your comments certainly resonate with me. I used Buxton, some years ago, and thought it was really a spectacular paper-- seemed to just respond so beautifully to both platinum and cyanotype-- but even back then, the cost was fairly prohibitive. I typically made small prints with it, so I could stretch the paper as far as it would go. I'm pretty sure I have a couple of sheets left, too-- in the drawer with the platinum I have left. And, in fact, it has not gone down in price. A couple of places in NY (Talas and NY Central Art Supply) still sell it, I believe-- or at least they did several months ago-- and the price has actually gone up substantially-- if you can believe that. The last time I saw it listed, one sheet was well over $20. And, yeah, if the paper is the most expensive part of your process, it doesn't leave much room for experimentation, or-- heaven forbid-- mistakes. I assumed they raised the price so much, because of the shipping costs and the relatively small market?? I'm guessing they just don't want to make it anymore. Chris, as far as I know, Buxton has always been called Ruscombe Mills Buxton here, not Ashton-- unless that's a different paper they also make. I've never seen it listed like that anywhere. Diana On Mar 30, 2010, at 7:22 PM, Judy Seigel wrote: > > On Tue, 30 Mar 2010, Christina Anderson wrote: > >> Well, I know that Buxton is one of Ware's favorites, and Arches >> Platine used to be sized with a more acid size (rosapina or >> something?). >> >> But Buxton is called something like Ashton in the States, and is a >> bit expensive for my tastes. Chris >> >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com > > I bought some Buxton in the long long ago, probably when Mike Ware > was still on the list and, um, praised it. I may suffer from a > character flaw (or three), but I couldn't get used to working on a > paper that was worth more per cubic inch than I am... It made me so > uptight nothing worked... My feeling, nowadays is that one's paper > and other materials should be like trash, expendable, not to give a > damn about... My time and effort and inspiration should rule. (And > now that you mention it, I probably still have a couple of sheets of > Buxton in a folder somewhere.... they were so precious I could never > mess them up with paint.) > > I suspect, BTW, that the price has come down somewhat.... or those 6 > by 6 inch prints mentioned recently might be the rule. > > J. > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From alt.list at albertonovo.it Wed Mar 31 06:15:30 2010 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 08:15:30 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: acid paper In-Reply-To: <725fa8581003300827h3633f915j6ab882cc949c3430@mail.gmail.com> References: <20100330092755.10944.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <94DB0EFC-A2E5-4F4F-80A5-911996AFD08E@montana.net> <20100330151441.13561.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <725fa8581003300827h3633f915j6ab882cc949c3430@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20100331061530.8710.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> > Alum-rosin sizing? A paper with rosin sizing is Weston Diploma > Parchment (pH 6.5)... (But I presume this is obvious and Alberto is > looking for else - wanted to mention anyway.) THIS ONE! Thank you Loris. It is so obvious that I forgotten it. Alberto From zphoto at montana.net Wed Mar 31 14:42:25 2010 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 08:42:25 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: acid paper In-Reply-To: <20100331061530.8710.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> References: <20100330092755.10944.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <94DB0EFC-A2E5-4F4F-80A5-911996AFD08E@montana.net> <20100330151441.13561.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <725fa8581003300827h3633f915j6ab882cc949c3430@mail.gmail.com> <20100331061530.8710.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> Message-ID: <737649FC-2EAD-43AC-8147-1F35101FB888@montana.net> Here's what John Zowkowski says: Dear Christina: Yes, the Weston is rosin-alum sized. And yes, the pH is in the range of 5.5 to 6.5. Weston was originally manufactured for the manufacture of honorable military discharge certificates, and an aside to that purpose it had to be made in the pH range for gold foil stamping. Sorry, Alberto, I was thinking you were referring to a convo from WAY back, not recent. If you want to contact him, here is his email: jzokowski at comcast.net The paper is very reasonably priced, especially in orders of 100 sheets or more. Chris On Mar 31, 2010, at 12:15 AM, Alberto Novo wrote: >> Alum-rosin sizing? A paper with rosin sizing is Weston Diploma >> Parchment (pH 6.5)... (But I presume this is obvious and Alberto is >> looking for else - wanted to mention anyway.) > > THIS ONE! Thank you Loris. It is so obvious that I forgotten it. > Alberto > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From trevor at chalkjockeys.com Wed Mar 31 16:17:00 2010 From: trevor at chalkjockeys.com (Trevor Cunningham) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 19:17:00 +0300 Subject: [alt-photo] Transvel In-Reply-To: <737649FC-2EAD-43AC-8147-1F35101FB888@montana.net> References: <20100330092755.10944.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <94DB0EFC-A2E5-4F4F-80A5-911996AFD08E@montana.net> <20100330151441.13561.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <725fa8581003300827h3633f915j6ab882cc949c3430@mail.gmail.com> <20100331061530.8710.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <737649FC-2EAD-43AC-8147-1F35101FB888@montana.net> Message-ID: <4BB3757C.5090900@chalkjockeys.com> I've been following the paper discussions closely as I make my shopping list for this summer. The availability of paper here in Riyadh is depressingly low. I'm excited about try a whole host of things and the mention of the Weston Diploma Parchment has made my list longer. In search of a retailer for the Weston, I came across another paper for plat/pal called Transvel. Anyone work with it? I assume it would probably be suitable for cyantype, am I wrong? Does Jerry's sell the Weston? From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Wed Mar 31 16:19:22 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:19:22 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Transvel In-Reply-To: <4BB3757C.5090900@chalkjockeys.com> References: <20100330092755.10944.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <94DB0EFC-A2E5-4F4F-80A5-911996AFD08E@montana.net> <20100330151441.13561.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <725fa8581003300827h3633f915j6ab882cc949c3430@mail.gmail.com> <20100331061530.8710.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <737649FC-2EAD-43AC-8147-1F35101FB888@montana.net> <4BB3757C.5090900@chalkjockeys.com> Message-ID: Hi Trevor, As far as I know, Jerry's doesn't sell the Weston. I've never seen it in our local store here, and I'm pretty sure I've never seen it online. I'm not familiar with the Transvel myself. Who stocks it? Thanks. Diana On Mar 31, 2010, at 12:17 PM, Trevor Cunningham wrote: > I've been following the paper discussions closely as I make my shopping list for this summer. The availability of paper here in Riyadh is depressingly low. I'm excited about try a whole host of things and the mention of the Weston Diploma Parchment has made my list longer. In search of a retailer for the Weston, I came across another paper for plat/pal called Transvel. Anyone work with it? I assume it would probably be suitable for cyantype, am I wrong? Does Jerry's sell the Weston? > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Wed Mar 31 16:22:31 2010 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:22:31 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Transvel In-Reply-To: <4BB3757C.5090900@chalkjockeys.com> References: <20100330092755.10944.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <94DB0EFC-A2E5-4F4F-80A5-911996AFD08E@montana.net> <20100330151441.13561.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <725fa8581003300827h3633f915j6ab882cc949c3430@mail.gmail.com> <20100331061530.8710.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <737649FC-2EAD-43AC-8147-1F35101FB888@montana.net> <4BB3757C.5090900@chalkjockeys.com> Message-ID: <013225BF-B9C5-4230-AC0C-88C47E5AB364@bellsouth.net> Oh, okay. I looked it up. Transvel is a translucent vellum paper. Interesting. Thanks for mentioning it. The site I saw it on was butlerdearden.com. I guess they sell it-- not sure who else does. Diana On Mar 31, 2010, at 12:17 PM, Trevor Cunningham wrote: > I've been following the paper discussions closely as I make my shopping list for this summer. The availability of paper here in Riyadh is depressingly low. I'm excited about try a whole host of things and the mention of the Weston Diploma Parchment has made my list longer. In search of a retailer for the Weston, I came across another paper for plat/pal called Transvel. Anyone work with it? I assume it would probably be suitable for cyantype, am I wrong? Does Jerry's sell the Weston? > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From trevor at chalkjockeys.com Wed Mar 31 16:27:52 2010 From: trevor at chalkjockeys.com (Trevor Cunningham) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 19:27:52 +0300 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Transvel In-Reply-To: <013225BF-B9C5-4230-AC0C-88C47E5AB364@bellsouth.net> References: <20100330092755.10944.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <94DB0EFC-A2E5-4F4F-80A5-911996AFD08E@montana.net> <20100330151441.13561.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <725fa8581003300827h3633f915j6ab882cc949c3430@mail.gmail.com> <20100331061530.8710.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <737649FC-2EAD-43AC-8147-1F35101FB888@montana.net> <4BB3757C.5090900@chalkjockeys.com> <013225BF-B9C5-4230-AC0C-88C47E5AB364@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4BB37808.2000206@chalkjockeys.com> That's where I found it while looking for a Weston dealer. Diana Bloomfield wrote: > Oh, okay. I looked it up. Transvel is a translucent vellum paper. Interesting. Thanks for mentioning it. The site I saw it on was butlerdearden.com. I guess they sell it-- not sure who else does. > > Diana > On Mar 31, 2010, at 12:17 PM, Trevor Cunningham wrote: > > >> I've been following the paper discussions closely as I make my shopping list for this summer. The availability of paper here in Riyadh is depressingly low. I'm excited about try a whole host of things and the mention of the Weston Diploma Parchment has made my list longer. In search of a retailer for the Weston, I came across another paper for plat/pal called Transvel. Anyone work with it? I assume it would probably be suitable for cyantype, am I wrong? Does Jerry's sell the Weston? >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > From tom at tomkershaw.com Wed Mar 31 16:30:08 2010 From: tom at tomkershaw.com (Tom Kershaw) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 17:30:08 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] From colour transparency to black & white separation negatives for contact printing? Message-ID: <4BB37890.1080708@tomkershaw.com> First post to the new list: If one wished to produce separation negatives (e.g. for colour gum dichromate printing) from an in-camera original transparency in the darkroom are any suggestions forthcoming as to an effective procedure? Firstly, are there any advantages to be gained by using an orthochromatic film (e.g. ILFORD Ortho or Adox Ortho 25) aside from the ability to work in safelight conditions? Here in the United Kingdom, Fomapan 100 is to the best of my knowledge the least expensive film available while still apparently maintaining reasonable manufacturing quality control. Has anyone on this list used the Foma film for the purposes of making separations? In terms of technique, I would assume the use of enlarger filtration controls to create red, green, blue tinted projections to be used for cyan, magenta, and yellow (approximate) layers in the print. Although I don?t have the reference to hand, I recall ?DK-50? has been suggested as a film developer for separations perhaps due to its supposed high contrast results. Any suggestions on starting points for relative exposure and development between the negatives? Tom Kershaw From jeremydmoore at gmail.com Wed Mar 31 16:44:00 2010 From: jeremydmoore at gmail.com (Jeremy Moore) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:44:00 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Transvel In-Reply-To: <4BB37808.2000206@chalkjockeys.com> References: <20100330092755.10944.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <94DB0EFC-A2E5-4F4F-80A5-911996AFD08E@montana.net> <20100330151441.13561.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <725fa8581003300827h3633f915j6ab882cc949c3430@mail.gmail.com> <20100331061530.8710.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <737649FC-2EAD-43AC-8147-1F35101FB888@montana.net> <4BB3757C.5090900@chalkjockeys.com> <013225BF-B9C5-4230-AC0C-88C47E5AB364@bellsouth.net> <4BB37808.2000206@chalkjockeys.com> Message-ID: <66575de71003310944t327058edp3a45faf9382a25b2@mail.gmail.com> http://www.usask.ca/lists/alt-photo-process-l/200905/msg00324.html Marek has printed on it before. On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 11:27 AM, Trevor Cunningham wrote: > That's where I found it while looking for a Weston dealer. > > > Diana Bloomfield wrote: > >> Oh, okay. I looked it up. Transvel is a translucent vellum paper. >> Interesting. Thanks for mentioning it. The site I saw it on was >> butlerdearden.com. I guess they sell it-- not sure who else does. >> >> Diana >> On Mar 31, 2010, at 12:17 PM, Trevor Cunningham wrote: >> >> >> >>> I've been following the paper discussions closely as I make my shopping >>> list for this summer. The availability of paper here in Riyadh is >>> depressingly low. I'm excited about try a whole host of things and the >>> mention of the Weston Diploma Parchment has made my list longer. In search >>> of a retailer for the Weston, I came across another paper for plat/pal >>> called Transvel. Anyone work with it? I assume it would probably be suitable >>> for cyantype, am I wrong? Does Jerry's sell the Weston? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From henry.rattle at ntlworld.com Wed Mar 31 18:21:51 2010 From: henry.rattle at ntlworld.com (Henry Rattle) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 18:21:51 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: From colour transparency to black & white separation negatives for contact printing? In-Reply-To: <4BB37890.1080708@tomkershaw.com> Message-ID: I've only done this once, nearly 30 years ago... It makes sense to start from a transparency because you get negatives directly in one step. I exposed Kodak Plus-X negatives through red, green and blue Kodak filters (almost certainly no.29 red, no 61 green and 47B blue). I think it was important to use panchromatic film simply because of the exposure through the red filter which would presumably not have registered on ortho film. There are some very helpful notes on this in William Crawford's wonderful "Keepers of Light" pages 230-233, including some suggestions for exposure and development times. Let me know offline if you can't find this and I'll copy them for you. Best wishes Henry On 31/03/2010 16:30, "Tom Kershaw" wrote: > First post to the new list: > > If one wished to produce separation negatives (e.g. for colour gum > dichromate printing) from an in-camera original transparency in the > darkroom are any suggestions forthcoming as to an effective procedure? > Firstly, are there any advantages to be gained by using an > orthochromatic film (e.g. ILFORD Ortho or Adox Ortho 25) aside from the > ability to work in safelight conditions? > > Here in the United Kingdom, Fomapan 100 is to the best of my knowledge > the least expensive film available while still apparently maintaining > reasonable manufacturing quality control. Has anyone on this list used > the Foma film for the purposes of making separations? In terms of > technique, I would assume the use of enlarger filtration controls to > create red, green, blue tinted projections to be used for cyan, magenta, > and yellow (approximate) layers in the print. Although I don?t have the > reference to hand, I recall ?DK-50? has been suggested as a film > developer for separations perhaps due to its supposed high contrast > results. Any suggestions on starting points for relative exposure and > development between the negatives? > > Tom Kershaw > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From tom at tomkershaw.com Wed Mar 31 18:27:08 2010 From: tom at tomkershaw.com (Tom Kershaw) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 19:27:08 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: From colour transparency to black & white separation negatives for contact printing? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BB393FC.4090606@tomkershaw.com> Henry, Thanks for your response. The issue of the red exposure and film type had somehow escaped my consideration. Tom Henry Rattle wrote: > I've only done this once, nearly 30 years ago... > > It makes sense to start from a transparency because you get negatives > directly in one step. I exposed Kodak Plus-X negatives through red, green > and blue Kodak filters (almost certainly no.29 red, no 61 green and 47B > blue). I think it was important to use panchromatic film simply because of > the exposure through the red filter which would presumably not have > registered on ortho film. > > There are some very helpful notes on this in William Crawford's wonderful > "Keepers of Light" pages 230-233, including some suggestions for exposure > and development times. Let me know offline if you can't find this and I'll > copy them for you. > > Best wishes > > Henry > > > On 31/03/2010 16:30, "Tom Kershaw" wrote: > > >> First post to the new list: >> >> If one wished to produce separation negatives (e.g. for colour gum >> dichromate printing) from an in-camera original transparency in the >> darkroom are any suggestions forthcoming as to an effective procedure? >> Firstly, are there any advantages to be gained by using an >> orthochromatic film (e.g. ILFORD Ortho or Adox Ortho 25) aside from the >> ability to work in safelight conditions? >> >> Here in the United Kingdom, Fomapan 100 is to the best of my knowledge >> the least expensive film available while still apparently maintaining >> reasonable manufacturing quality control. Has anyone on this list used >> the Foma film for the purposes of making separations? In terms of >> technique, I would assume the use of enlarger filtration controls to >> create red, green, blue tinted projections to be used for cyan, magenta, >> and yellow (approximate) layers in the print. Although I don?t have the >> reference to hand, I recall ?DK-50? has been suggested as a film >> developer for separations perhaps due to its supposed high contrast >> results. Any suggestions on starting points for relative exposure and >> development between the negatives? >> >> Tom Kershaw >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >