From frangst at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 05:30:00 2011 From: frangst at gmail.com (francis schanberger) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 01:30:00 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] the color red Message-ID: Last week in NYC, I caught the Mark Morrisroe exhibit at ClampArt Gallery. There were a few silver gelatin prints that Morrisroe had either tweaked the print color with developer or toner to achieve a cadmium red color. In the 1990's I saw some work by James Fee which achieved a similar hue. Were the results by these photographers due to the fact that older papers did (or did not) have cadmium as an additive in the emulsion? Any ideas how they achieved their results? See page five of the pdf at clampart for examples. http://clampart.com/exhibitions/assets/Morrisroe_2011.pdf -- francis schanberger www.francisschanberger.com From viapiano at pacbell.net Fri Apr 1 05:42:40 2011 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 22:42:40 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: the color red References: Message-ID: <968404F059C54C4DBE2615C167912886@dell4600> Francis, It says "hand painted" in the description. ----- Original Message ----- From: "francis schanberger" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 10:30 PM Subject: [alt-photo] the color red > Last week in NYC, I caught the Mark Morrisroe exhibit at ClampArt Gallery. > There were a few silver gelatin prints that Morrisroe had either tweaked > the > print color with developer or toner to achieve a cadmium red color. In the > 1990's I saw some work by James Fee which achieved a similar hue. Were the > results by these photographers due to the fact that older papers did (or > did > not) have cadmium as an additive in the emulsion? Any ideas how they > achieved their results? > > See page five of the pdf at clampart for examples. > > http://clampart.com/exhibitions/assets/Morrisroe_2011.pdf > > -- > francis schanberger > > www.francisschanberger.com > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From frangst at gmail.com Fri Apr 1 05:49:09 2011 From: frangst at gmail.com (francis schanberger) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 01:49:09 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: the color red In-Reply-To: <968404F059C54C4DBE2615C167912886@dell4600> References: <968404F059C54C4DBE2615C167912886@dell4600> Message-ID: Paul, I just read that. Viewing them in person, I think there is a chemical tweak going on. He may have painted something that interacted with the emulsion but it was not sitting on top of the photograph. In the mid-90's I was getting a strong orange color with Lith A + B using Forte's Polywarmtone Fiber Base paper. There were also some of his chromogenic prints with examples of his use of Kodak spotting dyes in the margins. The work will be up through the end of April. -francis > >> >> -- francis schanberger www.francisschanberger.com From davidashcraft at sti.net Fri Apr 1 12:17:42 2011 From: davidashcraft at sti.net (David Ashcraft) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 05:17:42 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: pd/pt coating solutions In-Reply-To: <008a01cbef11$51a87c70$f4f97550$@net> References: <4FB1DCCD-031A-4F59-947D-1D1A10F7EF04@sti.net> <008a01cbef11$51a87c70$f4f97550$@net> Message-ID: <7827C159-9CC4-4A99-9E89-152A9B2CF2C4@sti.net> OK, I'll do some testing and see. Thanks, David On Mar 30, 2011, at 12:32 PM, Eric Neilsen wrote: > David, I am saying don't add it at all. And now that you are > talking about > digital negs, a very small amount may be needed. Just as with > photoshop > workflows where one needs to know the whole thing, hardware type and > software versions, before offering up to much "do it this way", it is > important to know others entire process to put the mixture into > perspective. > > > Potassium Chlorate does indeed make images have contrast, but even > in slight > amounts can produce pronounced grain. IS that a problem? Not for > some, and > that's visually speaking. You may have been told you MUST add a > little to > keep the fogged highlights down. That may be or not. > > Nomenclature 101 - Not everyone prints with the B&S chemicals, nor > Dick > Arentz method or... so Ferric Oxalate can come in a powder or liquid > form. > It can be home made in either type. I make a liquid. I have gone > from Pot > Chlorate, H2O2, tried Dichromates, (sodium, potassium, ammonium) in > separate > solutions and at different concentrations in the developer. I > currently use > the platinic acid method that B&S users might refer to as Na2. All the > methods that restrain the highlights can be looked at for you > preferred > workflow. Several can be made as separate solutions and added to the > coating > solution just prior to coating the paper. Some can be added to the > ferric > prior to the drop count time and you just end up with more solutions > to add. > > > If you are using solution two, in the B&S system, then that is where > the > chlorate comes in and the chlorate has more effect on some solutions > than > others. The balance is in PD and PT for color and contrast. The > additional > contrast changes come from gold and how it reacts with pd, pt and > any other > parts; say lithium. Each new concentration and balance of pd, to pt to > sodium, to ammonium, to lithium changes the retainers that one might > use. > > Any change in your pt, pd ratio, as well as a change in humidity and > any > additional additives like gold will benefit changes. The changes to > be made > will be depend on what you want to see. > > Eric Neilsen > From zphoto at montana.net Sat Apr 2 21:27:00 2011 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 14:27:00 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] casein image Message-ID: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net> Dear All, I purchased two kinds of casein and then made my own. Here is an image of the three caseins together on my dinner plate, elucidating the problem trying to compare apples to apples. No I did not eat them, although casein is certainly in our food supply. Enjoy. http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=2076 Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com From alt.list at albertonovo.it Sun Apr 3 05:34:03 2011 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2011 07:34:03 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein image In-Reply-To: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net> References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net> Message-ID: <20110403053403.24591.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> Chris, > I purchased two kinds of casein and then made my own. Here is an image of the three caseins together on my dinner plate, elucidating the problem trying to compare apples to apples. how did you made your one? Alberto www.grupponamias.com www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group From jacqueskv at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 11:43:40 2011 From: jacqueskv at gmail.com (Jacques Kevers) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 13:43:40 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein image In-Reply-To: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net> References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net> Message-ID: Christina, As for the Schmincke product, from what I understand from the MSDS (german only : http://www.schmincke.de/fileadmin/SDB/Deutsch/50_088_000_Kasein-Bindemittel_D.pdf): Dinatriumtetraborat Decahydrat: < 3% (this is the Borax concentration) Dichte 1,1 - 1,2 g/ml (global density of the product) pH 8,0 - 9 Hope this helps, Jacques 2011/4/2 Christina Anderson > Dear All, > ....trying to compare apples to apples.... > http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=2076 > > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > From zphoto at montana.net Sun Apr 3 15:07:05 2011 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 09:07:05 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein image In-Reply-To: <20110403053403.24591.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net> <20110403053403.24591.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> Message-ID: Alberto, I made my homemade one by whipping up ammonium caseinate powder in the blender with water. It foamed up hugely at first like egg whites; it grew 2.5x its original size, and then after a couple hours the foam subsided and it was ready. But it mixed right away in any case. I was following Franklin Enos' formula,as much as I can deduce from his notes. I have seen his prints in that archive and the layers are minisculely thin. And I have it on good record, since Sam was in close correspondence with Enos for years. Mind you, this is not to say that Enos' method is THE method to do, just that his was what I was researching. Lukas Werth uses an 8%, even thinner. It is difficult to deduce percent solutions from the old recipes because they would pour ammonia into milk or whatnot and then extract the whey, so who knows how much the whey weighed. Both casein solutions from Kremer are way thicker, and I mean WAY thicker. The one in the picture is like gravy when you add too much flour and the gravy is light but too too thick and it piles up coagulantly (not a word) on your plate. The thinner one is like a thick corn syrup and just as sticky. Mine is like half and half cream, or a tad thicker than whole milk. No borax, no ammonia as it is ammonium caseinate/water soluble (or is it miscible since it is really a suspension or whatever?). Thymol to preserve. Thanks Jacques for that clarification. It seems in what little literature I can find on casein that either ammonia or borax was used to make the casein mix/suspend (?) in water (it starts out pretty plastic lumpy, like it gloms together in a big wad). The interesting thing is there is a difference in pH between sodium and ammonium caseinate: sodium is 6.6-7.2, ammonium 5.7-6.7. And now it seems as you say, Jacques, the Schmincke is higher at 8-9. I don't know if that means anything except usually dichromates slow down the higher the alkalinity. In any case, casein is quite fast. As in, if my gum exposures are 6 minutes, casein is 1.5 - 3. So what little pH difference there is, I don't know if it really means anything except that one might have to test times when switching casein powders. Alberto, if you would like me to bring you some ammonium caseinate when I come to Italy, I can. I traveled with some casein powder already and no questions were asked, but my friend's husband's casein/whey protein powder for drinking was confiscated so you never know. I thought since it was in a baggie they might think it was cocaine. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Apr 2, 2011, at 10:34 PM, Alberto Novo wrote: > Chris, >> I purchased two kinds of casein and then made my own. Here is an image of the three caseins together on my dinner plate, elucidating the problem trying to compare apples to apples. > > how did you made your one? > Alberto > www.grupponamias.com > www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Sun Apr 3 15:13:27 2011 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 09:13:27 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein image In-Reply-To: References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net> Message-ID: <8B34950B-2491-4915-8C8F-1C2E659B9B8D@montana.net> ps Jacques, what is "global density?" Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Apr 3, 2011, at 5:43 AM, Jacques Kevers wrote: > Christina, > As for the Schmincke product, from what I understand from the MSDS (german > only : > http://www.schmincke.de/fileadmin/SDB/Deutsch/50_088_000_Kasein-Bindemittel_D.pdf): > > Dinatriumtetraborat Decahydrat: < 3% (this is the Borax concentration) > Dichte 1,1 - 1,2 g/ml (global density of the product) > pH 8,0 - 9 > > Hope this helps, > Jacques > > 2011/4/2 Christina Anderson > >> Dear All, >> ....trying to compare apples to apples.... >> http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=2076 >> >> >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From jacqueskv at gmail.com Sun Apr 3 14:33:48 2011 From: jacqueskv at gmail.com (Jacques Kevers) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 16:33:48 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein image In-Reply-To: <8B34950B-2491-4915-8C8F-1C2E659B9B8D@montana.net> References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net> <8B34950B-2491-4915-8C8F-1C2E659B9B8D@montana.net> Message-ID: Christina, The german text only says "Dichte" which can be translated, as far as I know, by "density". What I wanted to express is that it is the density of the finished product, including evrything, borax and casein. I'm not a chemist, so expressing myself with candid, layman's words..:-) Best, Jacques 2011/4/3 Christina Anderson > ps Jacques, what is "global density?" > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > From zphoto at montana.net Sun Apr 3 15:42:07 2011 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 09:42:07 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein image In-Reply-To: References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net> <8B34950B-2491-4915-8C8F-1C2E659B9B8D@montana.net> Message-ID: <3E965158-69D8-4357-AC16-27CE4BF6AECB@montana.net> > > I'm not a chemist, so expressing myself with candid, layman's words..:-) > Best, Jacques Well, as you well know, neither am I :) Chris From pedrohorta at yahoo.com Sun Apr 3 21:37:03 2011 From: pedrohorta at yahoo.com (Pedro Horta) Date: Sun, 3 Apr 2011 14:37:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [alt-photo] Develop with an infusion of Eucaliptus and Sodium Carbonate. Message-ID: <570599.31534.qm@web113211.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi, Today i found a way to develop with an? infusion of Eucaliptus and 1 Teaspoon of Sodium Carbonate. Just like the Tea, but with no sugar.... Anyone knows that process? If not i call him Caliptol ( Eucaliptol already exist and is a pharmac) Please see pictures and all discovery history in http://www.facebook.com/#!/notes/pedro-horta/descoberta-de-um-novo-revelador-fotogr%C3%A1ficoo-eucaliptol/10150203285134680 Forgive my english....not good at all. Pedro Horta tm. 968767177 fotodecartao.blogspot.com From alt.list at albertonovo.it Mon Apr 4 09:02:43 2011 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 11:02:43 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein image In-Reply-To: References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net> <20110403053403.24591.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> Message-ID: <20110404090244.14519.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> Christina, > I was following Franklin Enos' formula,as much as I can deduce from his notes. There are three identical articles from Enos/Theisen notes: http://www.etheisen.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9 http://glsmyth.com/AltProcess/Articles/Casein/Casein.htm http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Casein/casein.html These notes explain how to prepare casein solution by adding ammonia to powdered milk curdled with acetic acid, and not straight from ammonium caseinate. >... Lukas Werth uses an 8%, even thinner. It is difficult to deduce percent solutions from the old recipes because they would pour ammonia into milk or whatnot and then extract the whey, so who knows how much the whey weighed. Lukas Werth's website www.lukaswerth.de is not online anymore, nor I have now at hand PF #6", but my notes say 0.8 g of dry casein plus 10 cc of 9.5% ammonia. This is indeed about 8% or something less, if you take into account the volume of the casein. But this is not thinner than Enos/Thiesen formula. I tried to measure the yield from (my) powdered milk: it was 23% of dry casein. In addition, the apparent density of (my) powdered milk was 0.29 kg/dm3. So, to find the amount of dry pure casein used by those recipes that start from powdered milk, you have to multiply the volume (in metric units) by 0.29 and then by 0.23. This said, Enos/Franklin formula uses 1/4 cup (that is 2 fl.oz = 58 cc) of powdered milk, and to the curdle you have to add 75 cc of ammonia. This means 58*.29*.23= 3.87 g of dry casein = less than 5% depending on how much water is in the curdle. And how much ammonia is in the supermarket bottle? 5%? 1%? In mine it is written "not more than 9.5%". BTW, as a matter of fact, also pure water contains not more than 9.5% of ammonia! > The interesting thing is there is a difference in pH between sodium and ammonium caseinate: sodium is 6.6-7.2, ammonium 5.7-6.7. It is not surprising, because at first it depends on the strength of the bases (NaOH or NH4OH) bonded to the casein. Then it depends on how much sodium hydroxide or borax has been used to dissolve the casein. > Alberto, if you would like me to bring you some ammonium caseinate when I come to Italy, I can. I am (was) happy with my casein+ammonia solution, but I am ever curious so I will give it a try. In return, If you wish and we will have time, I may show you how to prepare a casein solution ready for use in about 15 minutes. > I traveled with some casein powder already and no questions were asked, but my friend's husband's casein/whey protein powder for drinking was confiscated so you never know. I thought since it was in a baggie they might think it was cocaine. In 1990, I travelled Austrian/Switzerland/Italian borders with a fridge full of snow samples gathered for a study on Alpine pollution, and I had to declare that I was carrying "snow"... :-) Alberto www.grupponamias.com www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group From alt.list at albertonovo.it Mon Apr 4 09:17:19 2011 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 11:17:19 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Develop with an infusion of Eucaliptus and Sodium Carbonate. In-Reply-To: <570599.31534.qm@web113211.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <570599.31534.qm@web113211.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110404091719.31060.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> > Today i found a way to develop with an infusion of Eucaliptus and 1 Teaspoon of Sodium Carbonate. > > Just like the Tea, but with no sugar.... > > Anyone knows that process? > > If not i call him Caliptol ( Eucaliptol already exist and is a pharmac) I knew Caffenol, and I was thinking that other infusions would work as well, for example Hibiscus tea or Karkade. If you patent your method (but Calyptol is the same of Eucaliptol, so you need more phantasy ... Caliptyl perhaps?), I will do the same with Karkadol :-) Alberto www.grupponamias.com www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group From pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca Mon Apr 4 12:14:20 2011 From: pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca (Peter Friedrichsen) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 08:14:20 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein image In-Reply-To: <20110404090244.14519.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net> <20110403053403.24591.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> <20110404090244.14519.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> Message-ID: I did some experimentation with casein in the last couple of years so I can add a little to this: First off, I duplicated Alberto's results of the percentage of casein by weight. I had read that it is 28% by weight of skim milk, (specifically cows milk ) but when I dried it down after separation I noted 23% of dried weight of skim powder which is the same value noted by Alberto. Information I gathered about the viscosity is that it varies by pH, temperature, type of caseinate salt, and of course concentration. First, the viscosity goes up rapidly with concentration; for instance, the viscosity increases almost 6 fold going from 8% to 11% of sodium caseinate. If you want to delve into this in more detail, try to find "Casein Viscosity Studies by Harper F. Zoller. I found it some time ago freely on the internet. What I enjoy about casein is its ability to hold such a high pigment load without staining, when using such a low percentage of actual casein in the emulsion vs gums 30-40%. I always wish to load more casein into the emulsion for a stronger image but the viscosity will go off the chats above about 12 % making it un-brushable. The best for me is to work with it on the slightly acidic side where its viscosity is less than when made alkaline but not too acidic of course, because the emulsion starts to break down going below about pH 5.5, based on my tests. Peter Friedrichsen At 05:02 AM 04/04/2011, you wrote: >Christina, >>I was following Franklin Enos' formula,as much as I can deduce from >>his notes. > >There are three identical articles from Enos/Theisen notes: >http://www.etheisen.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9 >http://glsmyth.com/AltProcess/Articles/Casein/Casein.htm >http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Casein/casein.html >These notes explain how to prepare casein solution by adding ammonia >to powdered milk curdled with acetic acid, and not straight from >ammonium caseinate. >>... Lukas Werth uses an 8%, even thinner. It is difficult to deduce >>percent solutions from the old recipes because they would pour >>ammonia into milk or whatnot and then extract the whey, so who >>knows how much the whey weighed. > >Lukas Werth's website www.lukaswerth.de is not online anymore, nor I >have now at hand PF #6", but my notes say 0.8 g of dry casein plus >10 cc of 9.5% ammonia. This is indeed about 8% or something less, if >you take into account the volume of the casein. But this is not >thinner than Enos/Thiesen formula. >I tried to measure the yield from (my) powdered milk: it was 23% of >dry casein. In addition, the apparent density of (my) powdered milk >was 0.29 kg/dm3. So, to find the amount of dry pure casein used by >those recipes that start from powdered milk, you have to multiply >the volume (in metric units) by 0.29 and then by 0.23. >This said, Enos/Franklin formula uses 1/4 cup (that is 2 fl.oz = 58 >cc) of powdered milk, and to the curdle you have to add 75 cc of ammonia. >This means 58*.29*.23= 3.87 g of dry casein = less than 5% depending >on how much water is in the curdle. And how much ammonia is in the >supermarket bottle? 5%? 1%? In mine it is written "not more than >9.5%". BTW, as a matter of fact, also pure water contains not more >than 9.5% of ammonia! >>The interesting thing is there is a difference in pH between sodium >>and ammonium caseinate: sodium is 6.6-7.2, ammonium 5.7-6.7. > >It is not surprising, because at first it depends on the strength of >the bases (NaOH or NH4OH) bonded to the casein. Then it depends on >how much sodium hydroxide or borax has been used to dissolve the casein. >>Alberto, if you would like me to bring you some ammonium caseinate >>when I come to Italy, I can. > >I am (was) happy with my casein+ammonia solution, but I am ever >curious so I will give it a try. In return, If you wish and we will >have time, I may show you how to prepare a casein solution ready for >use in about 15 minutes. >>I traveled with some casein powder already and no questions were >>asked, but my friend's husband's casein/whey protein powder for >>drinking was confiscated so you never know. I thought since it was >>in a baggie they might think it was cocaine. > >In 1990, I travelled Austrian/Switzerland/Italian borders with a >fridge full of snow samples gathered for a study on Alpine >pollution, and I had to declare that I was carrying "snow"... :-) >Alberto >www.grupponamias.com >www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group >_______________________________________________ >Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Mon Apr 4 13:42:55 2011 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 07:42:55 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein image In-Reply-To: References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net> <20110403053403.24591.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> <20110404090244.14519.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> Message-ID: <1B7566FC-3A7E-4142-8060-0F0D7E3CF2AD@montana.net> Dear Peter and Alberto, You both are such GEMS. Have to grade and then go to school so cannot add my 2 cents on all this. Will digest and respond when I get home. The notes I am using on Enos' process were from the last years of his casein experimentation, where he used the powdered form. I wish Lucas were on the list still so he can chime in but my notes on PF6 are thus: Lukas Werth, Casein Printing PF pp. 16-18, 22 #6 He uses 0.8g casein powder sprinkled over 10cc ammonia Before coating he uses 30 drops casein solution in 2cc water to size the paper. Coat is about 30-32 drops casein to pigment half a pea to 2cc 7.5-10% pot di. He exposes his 1.8dr negs 20mn, 10mn, 5mn for each successive layer with 20w UVBL 1 inch from image. I worked with casein all day yesterday. Found my generic gum curve is unsuitable for casein and have had to go back and revisit the curve process and thus the examples, below, are first trials, please be kind :) I posted my first casein tricolor here: http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Portfolio.cfm?nK=11961 I posted two more images for illustration on casein here: http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=2076 After a weekend of casein I am understanding it better, much much better, but only a BEGINNING. My reason for jumping into this with both feet is that my students are intrigued and they want to do it in lab on (gasp) this Wednesday. Trial by fire here. Nothing like teaching on the fly. But I told them they are my guinea pigs to test with me and I know nothing about the process. Curve is different. Exposure is almost really only 25% of gum, for sure half gum. Colloid behaves differently. Development is way different than gum. "Hardy" is not the word! Printed it on Yupo and old Kwik Print paper but layers are able to rub off with a finger. May be the pigment I am using, have not tried it with a vat pigment yet. Look (for me) is different. No gloss. Sort of if one were to use gouache. But that is because I am not using any gum arabic in my mix, e.g. the gum arabic that comes in the watercolor pigment tubes itself, but using either powdered pigments (of which casein carries a HUGE pigment load) or pigments not using gum as a binder. I wanted to make sure not to confuse the issue with gum arabic. But perhaps with lots of layers it may gloss up. The prints I have on the web are only 3 layers. Thus I have had to really separate it from my gum process instead of looking at it as another colloid to be used IN the gum process. Consider all the notes, above (except Lucas') with a big grain of salt as I am sure it will change weekly, and Peter Blackburn can chime in here with his experiences using homemade (from cheese) casein which may be completely different as I am only using purchased dry or liquid casein. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Apr 4, 2011, at 6:14 AM, Peter Friedrichsen wrote: > I did some experimentation with casein in the last couple of years so I can add a little to this: > > First off, I duplicated Alberto's results of the percentage of casein by weight. I had read that it is 28% by weight of skim milk, (specifically cows milk ) but when I dried it down after separation I noted 23% of dried weight of skim powder which is the same value noted by Alberto. Information I gathered about the viscosity is that it varies by pH, temperature, type of caseinate salt, and of course concentration. First, the viscosity goes up rapidly with concentration; for instance, the viscosity increases almost 6 fold going from 8% to 11% of sodium caseinate. If you want to delve into this in more detail, try to find "Casein Viscosity Studies by Harper F. Zoller. I found it some time ago freely on the internet. > > What I enjoy about casein is its ability to hold such a high pigment load without staining, when using such a low percentage of actual casein in the emulsion vs gums 30-40%. I always wish to load more casein into the emulsion for a stronger image but the viscosity will go off the chats above about 12 % making it un-brushable. The best for me is to work with it on the slightly acidic side where its viscosity is less than when made alkaline but not too acidic of course, because the emulsion starts to break down going below about pH 5.5, based on my tests. > > Peter Friedrichsen > > At 05:02 AM 04/04/2011, you wrote: >> Christina, >>> I was following Franklin Enos' formula,as much as I can deduce from his notes. >> >> There are three identical articles from Enos/Theisen notes: >> http://www.etheisen.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=9 >> http://glsmyth.com/AltProcess/Articles/Casein/Casein.htm >> http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Casein/casein.html >> These notes explain how to prepare casein solution by adding ammonia to powdered milk curdled with acetic acid, and not straight from ammonium caseinate. >>> ... Lukas Werth uses an 8%, even thinner. It is difficult to deduce percent solutions from the old recipes because they would pour ammonia into milk or whatnot and then extract the whey, so who knows how much the whey weighed. >> >> Lukas Werth's website www.lukaswerth.de is not online anymore, nor I have now at hand PF #6", but my notes say 0.8 g of dry casein plus 10 cc of 9.5% ammonia. This is indeed about 8% or something less, if you take into account the volume of the casein. But this is not thinner than Enos/Thiesen formula. >> I tried to measure the yield from (my) powdered milk: it was 23% of dry casein. In addition, the apparent density of (my) powdered milk was 0.29 kg/dm3. So, to find the amount of dry pure casein used by those recipes that start from powdered milk, you have to multiply the volume (in metric units) by 0.29 and then by 0.23. >> This said, Enos/Franklin formula uses 1/4 cup (that is 2 fl.oz = 58 cc) of powdered milk, and to the curdle you have to add 75 cc of ammonia. >> This means 58*.29*.23= 3.87 g of dry casein = less than 5% depending on how much water is in the curdle. And how much ammonia is in the supermarket bottle? 5%? 1%? In mine it is written "not more than 9.5%". BTW, as a matter of fact, also pure water contains not more than 9.5% of ammonia! >>> The interesting thing is there is a difference in pH between sodium and ammonium caseinate: sodium is 6.6-7.2, ammonium 5.7-6.7. >> >> It is not surprising, because at first it depends on the strength of the bases (NaOH or NH4OH) bonded to the casein. Then it depends on how much sodium hydroxide or borax has been used to dissolve the casein. >>> Alberto, if you would like me to bring you some ammonium caseinate when I come to Italy, I can. >> >> I am (was) happy with my casein+ammonia solution, but I am ever curious so I will give it a try. In return, If you wish and we will have time, I may show you how to prepare a casein solution ready for use in about 15 minutes. >>> I traveled with some casein powder already and no questions were asked, but my friend's husband's casein/whey protein powder for drinking was confiscated so you never know. I thought since it was in a baggie they might think it was cocaine. >> >> In 1990, I travelled Austrian/Switzerland/Italian borders with a fridge full of snow samples gathered for a study on Alpine pollution, and I had to declare that I was carrying "snow"... :-) >> Alberto >> www.grupponamias.com >> www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From alt.list at albertonovo.it Mon Apr 4 14:19:07 2011 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 16:19:07 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein image In-Reply-To: References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net> <20110403053403.24591.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> <20110404090244.14519.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> Message-ID: <20110404141907.22302.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> Peter, > First off, I duplicated Alberto's results of the percentage of casein by > weight. I had read that it is 28% by weight of skim milk, (specifically > cows milk ) but when I dried it down after separation I noted 23% of dried > weight of skim powder which is the same value noted by Alberto. Perhaps we were using the same skim milk... :-) Which recipe were you using for your casein dichromate? > What I enjoy about casein is its ability to hold such a high pigment load > without staining, when using such a low percentage of actual casein in the > emulsion vs gums 30-40%. I have used up to 0.4 g of natural earth in 10 cc of casein solution + 10 cc of ammonium dichromate. > ...The best for me is to work with > it on the slightly acidic side where its viscosity is less than when made > alkaline but not too acidic of course, because the emulsion starts to > break down going below about pH 5.5, based on my tests. Casein is insoluble in acidic solutions. This is why it is widely used to etch color TV screens. US patent 4,865,953 "Method for making a stencil with a borax-free, low-dichromate, casein photoresist composition" makes a solution of casein with: 680 cc 25% sodium hydroxide, 60,000 cc of water and 6,000 g of casein, to wich ammonium dichromate is added from 5 to 15% the casein content. To make the things more simple, one could use a 1% sodium hydroxide and then using: 17 cc of 1% sodium hydroxide 43.7 cc od water, 6 g of casein. The resulting solution is the same (about 10%), etc. The final pH should be in the range 6.0 to 7.0. Alberto www.grupponamias.com www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group From blackburnap at hotmail.com Mon Apr 4 14:23:39 2011 From: blackburnap at hotmail.com (Peter Blackburn) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 09:23:39 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein image In-Reply-To: <1B7566FC-3A7E-4142-8060-0F0D7E3CF2AD@montana.net> References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net>, <20110403053403.24591.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it>, , <20110404090244.14519.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it>, , <1B7566FC-3A7E-4142-8060-0F0D7E3CF2AD@montana.net> Message-ID: Hi Christina: Judging by your initial images, it appears you are progressing quite lovely, indeed! I don't think I would change anything your are doing?keep going. Of course, it helps that your are bring to bear your vast gum printing experience which will help a great deal as you work with casein. Knowing how to manage the variables and proceed in an orderly fashion are factors which I know are part of your working repertoire. I suspect as you continue with casein, your gum work will improve further and visa versa, like it did for me. They kind of play off each other. Again, how I make casein has little resemblance whatsoever to how you are making yours, but that's OK. It has been my impression there are probably a number of ways to make excellent printing quality casein if one would only take the time to work with it. From the three casein emulsion samples you posted, mine looks like the sample on the far left. However no water, no acid, no preservatives, no blenders are used in my casein. How casein looks can be deceiving. My fresh casein looks exactly the same when it's 12 hours old and four days old?but at four days old it doesn't work anymore. So I toss it out every 48 hours and make it fresh again. Anyway, for those interested, the second part of my casein trilogy will be posted at the altphotog site perhaps as early as tomorrow . . . Peter J. Blackburn From blackburnap at hotmail.com Mon Apr 4 16:21:13 2011 From: blackburnap at hotmail.com (Peter Blackburn) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 11:21:13 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein image In-Reply-To: <1B7566FC-3A7E-4142-8060-0F0D7E3CF2AD@montana.net> References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net>, <20110403053403.24591.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it>, , <20110404090244.14519.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it>, , <1B7566FC-3A7E-4142-8060-0F0D7E3CF2AD@montana.net> Message-ID: One follow up, Christina? all of the observations you mention are spot on! Hardy development, less exposure time, etc. are among the benefits of casein. You can, in most cases, blot the image dry with a nonembossed paper towel or cotton rag which shortens the drying time and helps to prevents edge blooming which can be a problem in gum when the wet image is taking longer to dry. There are more advantages which I'm sure you will discover soon enough. I am so sorry for the typos in my previous message?typing too fast, pressed for time, not thinking, not proofing very well. My ADD is showing. I will try to do much better. Have a wonderful day everyone! Cheers. Peter J. Blackburn From zphoto at montana.net Tue Apr 5 00:16:03 2011 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 18:16:03 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein image In-Reply-To: References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net>, <20110403053403.24591.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it>, , <20110404090244.14519.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it>, , <1B7566FC-3A7E-4142-8060-0F0D7E3CF2AD@montana.net> Message-ID: <87CC5B5A-81ED-4CDD-B881-2593919E7CEC@montana.net> Peter, Well I must be ADD too because I didn't see any typos in your letter. Must be reading too fast. I rarely correct my emails, isn't that terrible? Two, BLOT with a towel, you ain't a kiddin'!! I practically scratched the whole surface during the development and nary a budge. It is incredibly more hardy than gum. I have a lot of grain in the images I have done because I did lots of roller and brush development, harsh, because my curve was not correct and I didn't want to lose the image...if I had done the same type "mechanical" development (as opposed to "automatic" development e.g. letting it sit there) to a gum print it would be hardly there. This is a plus to casein, as long as you expect it. For instance, I use lots of mechanical development with brush work in the gum process but casein is much more resistant to that so I could not depend on the ability to do it with a casein print. The grain is finer. The flaking is almost nonexistent, but I have never tried a gum layer as equally thin to see if it would be similar, so yes, this will inform my gum work. I have four students who want to guinea pig casein on Wednesday. The other 14 are sticking with gum. Interesting about the thickness of your casein. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Apr 4, 2011, at 10:21 AM, Peter Blackburn wrote: > One follow up, Christina? all of the observations you mention are spot on! Hardy development, less exposure time, etc. are among the benefits of casein. > You can, in most cases, blot the image dry with a nonembossed paper towel or cotton rag which shortens the drying time and helps to prevents edge blooming which can be a problem in gum when the wet image is taking longer to dry. There are more advantages which I'm sure you will discover soon enough. > I am so sorry for the typos in my previous message?typing too fast, pressed for time, not thinking, not proofing very well. My ADD is showing. I will try to do much better. > Have a wonderful day everyone! > Cheers. > Peter J. Blackburn From donsbryant at gmail.com Tue Apr 5 02:02:58 2011 From: donsbryant at gmail.com (Don Bryant) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 22:02:58 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein image In-Reply-To: <87CC5B5A-81ED-4CDD-B881-2593919E7CEC@montana.net> References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net>, <20110403053403.24591.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it>, , <20110404090244.14519.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it>, , <1B7566FC-3A7E-4142-8060-0F0D7E3CF2AD@montana.net> <87CC5B5A-81ED-4CDD-B881-2593919E7CEC@montana.net> Message-ID: Somewhere along the line of the discussion on casein someone mentioned Lukas Werth's casein prints. His website is gone but his work can be viewed now on Flickr. Start here if you are interested: http://www.flickr.com/photos/lukaswerth/4567554213/in/photostream/ From pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca Tue Apr 5 02:40:17 2011 From: pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca (Peter Friedrichsen) Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 22:40:17 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein image In-Reply-To: <20110404141907.22302.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net> <20110403053403.24591.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> <20110404090244.14519.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <20110404141907.22302.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> Message-ID: Alberto, I make up my casein emulsion to be about 10% by weight of casein in water. I originally alkalized it with household ammonia but later switched to using a "pinch" of sodium bicarbonate in a 10% emulsion of about 120 ml total vol. I then dilute the 10% casein with an equal portion of dichromate as 10% potassium dichromate solution, so the final casein is 5%. The pigment load is judged by tint strength when brushed onto a white enameled surface as I do not have a milligram scale which would be a requirement for the 4 or 5 ml volumes that I mix up since I use dry pigments. I occasionally vary the dilution of casein and find that the tonal scale expands upon dilution but at the expense of image density. Peter Friedrichsen At 10:19 AM 04/04/2011, you wrote: >Peter, >>First off, I duplicated Alberto's results of the percentage of >>casein by weight. I had read that it is 28% by weight of skim milk, >>(specifically cows milk ) but when I dried it down after separation >>I noted 23% of dried weight of skim powder which is the same value >>noted by Alberto. > >Perhaps we were using the same skim milk... :-) >Which recipe were you using for your casein dichromate? >>What I enjoy about casein is its ability to hold such a high >>pigment load without staining, when using such a low percentage of >>actual casein in the emulsion vs gums 30-40%. > >I have used up to 0.4 g of natural earth in 10 cc of casein solution >+ 10 cc of ammonium dichromate. >>...The best for me is to work with it on the slightly acidic side >>where its viscosity is less than when made alkaline but not too >>acidic of course, because the emulsion starts to break down going >>below about pH 5.5, based on my tests. > >Casein is insoluble in acidic solutions. This is why it is widely >used to etch color TV screens. US patent 4,865,953 "Method for >making a stencil with a borax-free, low-dichromate, casein >photoresist composition" makes a solution of casein with: >680 cc 25% sodium hydroxide, >60,000 cc of water and >6,000 g of casein, to wich ammonium dichromate is added from 5 to >15% the casein content. To make the things more simple, one could >use a 1% sodium hydroxide and then using: >17 cc of 1% sodium hydroxide >43.7 cc od water, >6 g of casein. The resulting solution is the same (about 10%), etc. >The final pH should be in the range 6.0 to 7.0. >Alberto >www.grupponamias.com >www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group >_______________________________________________ >Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From blackburnap at hotmail.com Tue Apr 5 14:22:04 2011 From: blackburnap at hotmail.com (Peter Blackburn) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:22:04 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein image In-Reply-To: <87CC5B5A-81ED-4CDD-B881-2593919E7CEC@montana.net> References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net>, , <20110403053403.24591.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it>, , , , <20110404090244.14519.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it>, , , , <1B7566FC-3A7E-4142-8060-0F0D7E3CF2AD@montana.net>, , <87CC5B5A-81ED-4CDD-B881-2593919E7CEC@montana.net> Message-ID: Christina: You mention mechanical development. I also enjoy that type of interaction with the print and it can be done fairly easily with casein. One way I work with the image is to slightly overexpose the print and then, after a few minutes of soaking to remove the excess dichromate, I implement a variety of bristle brushes dipped in straight ammonia and "chisel" the image out of the emulsion. It takes a little while, but what fun! Just place a fan in a position to draw the fumes away from you. I also can pour boiling water over the print and manipulate the image with brushes in the same way. The advantage is that one can be quite aggressive in the handling of a casein print without the fear of ruining it. Gum can be so?what's the word?wimpy, when it comes to handling. Casein is like heaven for the "hands on" artist. Most of the time I just do straight development?actually I like the "panning method" of development for both gum and casein. It's a real rush watching the image appear out of the murk and mire. For the record, I have never been able to flake a casein print. I suppose it could be done by using an extremely heavy pigment load or unusually high casein ratio. You, I believe, size the paper with gelatin whereas I use AKD. Sizing techniques will probably play a significant role as to how the casein print can be manipulated as well. Anyway, I'm rooting for your four students! Guinea pigs? Nah?trailblazers! GO FOR IT! Enjoy your day. Peter > From: zphoto at montana.net > Date: Mon, 4 Apr 2011 18:16:03 -0600 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein image > > Peter, > Well I must be ADD too because I didn't see any typos in your letter. Must be reading too fast. I rarely correct my emails, isn't that terrible? > > Two, BLOT with a towel, you ain't a kiddin'!! I practically scratched the whole surface during the development and nary a budge. It is incredibly more hardy than gum. I have a lot of grain in the images I have done because I did lots of roller and brush development, harsh, because my curve was not correct and I didn't want to lose the image...if I had done the same type "mechanical" development (as opposed to "automatic" development e.g. letting it sit there) to a gum print it would be hardly there. This is a plus to casein, as long as you expect it. For instance, I use lots of mechanical development with brush work in the gum process but casein is much more resistant to that so I could not depend on the ability to do it with a casein print. > > The grain is finer. The flaking is almost nonexistent, but I have never tried a gum layer as equally thin to see if it would be similar, so yes, this will inform my gum work. > > I have four students who want to guinea pig casein on Wednesday. The other 14 are sticking with gum. > > Interesting about the thickness of your casein. > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > On Apr 4, 2011, at 10:21 AM, Peter Blackburn wrote: > > One follow up, Christina? all of the observations you mention are spot on! Hardy development, less exposure time, etc. are among the benefits of casein. > > You can, in most cases, blot the image dry with a nonembossed paper towel or cotton rag which shortens the drying time and helps to prevents edge blooming which can be a problem in gum when the wet image is taking longer to dry. There are more advantages which I'm sure you will discover soon enough. > > I am so sorry for the typos in my previous message?typing too fast, pressed for time, not thinking, not proofing very well. My ADD is showing. I will try to do much better. > > Have a wonderful day everyone! > > Cheers. > > Peter J. Blackburn > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From alt.list at albertonovo.it Tue Apr 5 15:19:22 2011 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 17:19:22 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein image In-Reply-To: References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net> <20110403053403.24591.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> <20110404090244.14519.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <1B7566FC-3A7E-4142-8060-0F0D7E3CF2AD@montana.net> <87CC5B5A-81ED-4CDD-B881-2593919E7CEC@montana.net> Message-ID: <20110405151922.6954.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> > The advantage is that one can be quite aggressive in the handling of a casein print without the fear of ruining it. Gum can be so?what's the word?wimpy, when it comes to handling. Casein is like heaven for the "hands on" artist. Most of the time I just do straight development?actually I like the "panning method" of development for both gum and casein. It's a real rush watching the image appear out of the murk and mire. I am not very able with brushes, but I have used with success a garden sprayer, which nozzle can be adjusted to obtain a very narrow to a very wide jet. Playing with the amount of water and the distance from the nozzle, you can achieve a variety of effects. For a very hard surface, a short bath in very diluted ammonia or bleach will soften it. Alberto www.grupponamias.com www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group From blackburnap at hotmail.com Tue Apr 5 15:47:54 2011 From: blackburnap at hotmail.com (Peter Blackburn) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 10:47:54 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein image In-Reply-To: <20110405151922.6954.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net>, <20110403053403.24591.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it>, , <20110404090244.14519.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it>, , <1B7566FC-3A7E-4142-8060-0F0D7E3CF2AD@montana.net>, , <87CC5B5A-81ED-4CDD-B881-2593919E7CEC@montana.net>, , <20110405151922.6954.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> Message-ID: Hi Alberto Yes, you are exactly right. Depending on exposure and such, manipulations with ammonia baths (dilute and straight), brushes, spray bottles, hoses, vegetable sprayers, even your fingers, are all possible techniques with casein. The same can be true with gum, too, but casein is more robust and can handle far greater aggressive handling. Peter > From: alt.list at albertonovo.it > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 17:19:22 +0200 > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein image > > > The advantage is that one can be quite aggressive in the handling of a casein print without the fear of ruining it. Gum can be so?what's the word?wimpy, when it comes to handling. Casein is like heaven for the "hands on" artist. Most of the time I just do straight development?actually I like the "panning method" of development for both gum and casein. It's a real rush watching the image appear out of the murk and mire. > > I am not very able with brushes, but I have used with success a garden > sprayer, which nozzle can be adjusted to obtain a very narrow to a very wide > jet. Playing with the amount of water and the distance from the nozzle, you > can achieve a variety of effects. > For a very hard surface, a short bath in very diluted ammonia or bleach will > soften it. > > Alberto > www.grupponamias.com > www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From bi3 at georgetown.edu Wed Apr 6 04:26:30 2011 From: bi3 at georgetown.edu (Suzanne Izzo) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 00:26:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [alt-photo] Cliche Verre exhibit in San Francisco In-Reply-To: References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net>, <20110403053403.24591.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it>, , <20110404090244.14519.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it>, , <1B7566FC-3A7E-4142-8060-0F0D7E3CF2AD@montana.net> <87CC5B5A-81ED-4CDD-B881-2593919E7CEC@montana.net> Message-ID: <20110406002630.AKT46952@mstore-prod-2.pdc.uis.georgetown.edu> Last fall I was contacted by Courtney Johnson of the Jenkins Johnson Gallery in San Francisco about a cliche verre exhibit that was being planned. They chose six of my cliche verre prints (two in cyanotype) to be in the exhibit. The opening is this Thursday (April 7, 5:30-7:30). I have flown out from DC to be at the opening (and visit my daughter). I would enjoy meeting any list members who are in the area and can attend the opening. Look for an old woman with a long gray braid. The address is 464 Sutter Street, San Francisco. Suzanne Izzo From blackburnap at hotmail.com Wed Apr 6 13:11:42 2011 From: blackburnap at hotmail.com (Peter Blackburn) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 08:11:42 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Casein Update In-Reply-To: References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net>, , <20110403053403.24591.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it>, , , , <20110404090244.14519.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it>, , , , <1B7566FC-3A7E-4142-8060-0F0D7E3CF2AD@montana.net>, , , , <87CC5B5A-81ED-4CDD-B881-2593919E7CEC@montana.net>, , , , <20110405151922.6954.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it>, Message-ID: For those interested in casein, the second part of my trilogy story has been posted. Enjoy. http://www.alternativephotography.com/wp/open-blog/the-legend-of-casein-and-the-cruel-dragon-in-the-grips-of-the-beast Peter J. Blackburn From jon at intaglioeditions.com Wed Apr 6 14:22:21 2011 From: jon at intaglioeditions.com (Jon Lybrook) Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 08:22:21 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Cliche Verre exhibit in San Francisco In-Reply-To: <20110406002630.AKT46952@mstore-prod-2.pdc.uis.georgetown.edu> References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net>, <20110403053403.24591.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it>, , <20110404090244.14519.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it>, , <1B7566FC-3A7E-4142-8060-0F0D7E3CF2AD@montana.net> <87CC5B5A-81ED-4CDD-B881-2593919E7CEC@montana.net> <20110406002630.AKT46952@mstore-prod-2.pdc.uis.georgetown.edu> Message-ID: <4D9C771D.7070500@intaglioeditions.com> Congratulations Susan! Jon Lybrook Intaglio Editions http://intaglioeditions.com On 4/5/2011 10:26 PM, Suzanne Izzo wrote: > Last fall I was contacted by Courtney Johnson of the Jenkins Johnson Gallery in San > Francisco about a cliche verre exhibit that was being planned. They chose six of > my cliche verre prints (two in cyanotype) to be in the exhibit. The opening is this > Thursday (April 7, 5:30-7:30). I have flown out from DC to be at the opening (and > visit my daughter). I would enjoy meeting any list members who are in the area > and can attend the opening. Look for an old woman with a long gray braid. The > address is 464 Sutter Street, San Francisco. > > Suzanne Izzo > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > -- This message was sent from a non-secure email account. To communicate with us securely, please use our company's private Word Secure system at: https://wordsecure.com/?did=XfUsSxYzMC9LDDLY From viapiano at pacbell.net Wed Apr 6 15:15:16 2011 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 08:15:16 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Cliche Verre exhibit in San Francisco References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net>, <20110403053403.24591.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it>, , <20110404090244.14519.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it>, , <1B7566FC-3A7E-4142-8060-0F0D7E3CF2AD@montana.net><87CC5B5A-81ED-4CDD-B881-2593919E7CEC@montana.net> <20110406002630.AKT46952@mstore-prod-2.pdc.uis.georgetown.edu> Message-ID: <114B069F227A46F7BAC998CFDA6D738F@dell4600> Suzanne, Is your work online anywhere? The gallery doesn't have an exhibition preview on their site... Conratulations! Paul ----- Original Message ----- From: "Suzanne Izzo" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailinglist" Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 9:26 PM Subject: [alt-photo] Cliche Verre exhibit in San Francisco > Last fall I was contacted by Courtney Johnson of the Jenkins Johnson > Gallery in San > Francisco about a cliche verre exhibit that was being planned. They chose > six of > my cliche verre prints (two in cyanotype) to be in the exhibit. The > opening is this > Thursday (April 7, 5:30-7:30). I have flown out from DC to be at the > opening (and > visit my daughter). I would enjoy meeting any list members who are in > the area > and can attend the opening. Look for an old woman with a long gray braid. > The > address is 464 Sutter Street, San Francisco. > > Suzanne Izzo > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From frangst at gmail.com Wed Apr 6 15:27:51 2011 From: frangst at gmail.com (francis schanberger) Date: Wed, 6 Apr 2011 11:27:51 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Cliche Verre exhibit in San Francisco In-Reply-To: <114B069F227A46F7BAC998CFDA6D738F@dell4600> References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net> <20110403053403.24591.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> <20110404090244.14519.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <1B7566FC-3A7E-4142-8060-0F0D7E3CF2AD@montana.net> <87CC5B5A-81ED-4CDD-B881-2593919E7CEC@montana.net> <20110406002630.AKT46952@mstore-prod-2.pdc.uis.georgetown.edu> <114B069F227A46F7BAC998CFDA6D738F@dell4600> Message-ID: I believe a friend has work in that exhibit, Fredrik Marsh (from Columbus, Ohio). He has sent me a couple of announcements for the exhibit. http://www.jenkinsjohnsongallery.com/press/2011/04.Cliche_Verre_PR.pdf -francis On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 11:15 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > Suzanne, > > Is your work online anywhere? The gallery doesn't have an exhibition > preview on their site... > > Conratulations! > > Paul > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Suzanne Izzo" > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailinglist" < > alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> > Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 9:26 PM > Subject: [alt-photo] Cliche Verre exhibit in San Francisco > > > > Last fall I was contacted by Courtney Johnson of the Jenkins Johnson >> Gallery in San >> Francisco about a cliche verre exhibit that was being planned. They chose >> six of >> my cliche verre prints (two in cyanotype) to be in the exhibit. The >> opening is this >> Thursday (April 7, 5:30-7:30). I have flown out from DC to be at the >> opening (and >> visit my daughter). I would enjoy meeting any list members who are in >> the area >> and can attend the opening. Look for an old woman with a long gray braid. >> The >> address is 464 Sutter Street, San Francisco. >> >> Suzanne Izzo >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > -- francis schanberger www.francisschanberger.com From zphoto at montana.net Mon Apr 11 15:19:49 2011 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 09:19:49 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] casein Message-ID: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net> Dear All, I am continuing to work out the casein details, but thought I'd share a picture that applies to what I think Peter said, about the viscosity of casein that goes way up with percentage solutions. Peter, you are NOT kidding. http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=2076 This is a picture of the immediate viscosity of 10% vs 15% sodium caseinate. Have to go to school now but when I return I will see if it eventually liquifies, but this explains to me the vast differences between Schmincke and Kremer sodium caseinate/borax solution. The thick stuff is 15% and if Jacques was right, it may be Schmincke thinner stuff is 10-12%. No conclusions drawn quite eyt, but that ammonium caseinate behaves quite differently, whipping up in either concentration as whipped egg whites and then going into solution within a couple hours. More thoughts on this later but at least this will start a Monday morning conversation off. BTW more caseins up on my website in the Past Lives folder. All are made with earth pigments (iron oxides, ultramarine no gum arabic), because I wanted to make sure not to muck up my observations with watercolor that contains gum arabic. Now comparing same images made with the usual magenta/thalo/azo yellow watercolors for comparison. Taught casein in class last Wednesday and one student got a full tricolor in 2 hr. That's enough to make the process appealing, huh? A couple students were immediately hooked, and this is while they are still in their gum unit. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com From blackburnap at hotmail.com Mon Apr 11 19:32:27 2011 From: blackburnap at hotmail.com (Peter Blackburn) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 14:32:27 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein In-Reply-To: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net> References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net> Message-ID: Looks as if you are well on your way. Wonderful images. "...one student got a full tricolor in 2 hr..." ?if that's not rock 'n roll, I don't know what is! Perhaps I should go back and work with casein powder. But then again, working from real cheese has a bit more charm. Keep up the success and all the best! Peter J. Blackburn > From: zphoto at montana.net > Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 09:19:49 -0600 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] casein > > Dear All, > > I am continuing to work out the casein details, but thought I'd share a picture that applies to what I think Peter said, about the viscosity of casein that goes way up with percentage solutions. Peter, you are NOT kidding. > > http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=2076 > > This is a picture of the immediate viscosity of 10% vs 15% sodium caseinate. > > Have to go to school now but when I return I will see if it eventually liquifies, but this explains to me the vast differences between Schmincke and Kremer sodium caseinate/borax solution. The thick stuff is 15% and if Jacques was right, it may be Schmincke thinner stuff is 10-12%. > > No conclusions drawn quite eyt, but that ammonium caseinate behaves quite differently, whipping up in either concentration as whipped egg whites and then going into solution within a couple hours. > > More thoughts on this later but at least this will start a Monday morning conversation off. > > BTW more caseins up on my website in the Past Lives folder. All are made with earth pigments (iron oxides, ultramarine no gum arabic), because I wanted to make sure not to muck up my observations with watercolor that contains gum arabic. Now comparing same images made with the usual magenta/thalo/azo yellow watercolors for comparison. > > Taught casein in class last Wednesday and one student got a full tricolor in 2 hr. That's enough to make the process appealing, huh? A couple students were immediately hooked, and this is while they are still in their gum unit. > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Mon Apr 11 20:33:56 2011 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 20:33:56 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Casein source In-Reply-To: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net> References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net> Message-ID: Chris, Trying to follow up on this long strand of posts. First of all you images are wonderful and I am so inspired with earth tone tricolors. I am not quite sure what casein source and salt are you using. DId you buy ammonium caseinate (where from), or did you make it from scratch? Marek > From: zphoto at montana.net > Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 09:19:49 -0600 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] casein > > Dear All, > > I am continuing to work out the casein details, but thought I'd share a picture that applies to what I think Peter said, about the viscosity of casein that goes way up with percentage solutions. Peter, you are NOT kidding. > > http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=2076 > > This is a picture of the immediate viscosity of 10% vs 15% sodium caseinate. > > Have to go to school now but when I return I will see if it eventually liquifies, but this explains to me the vast differences between Schmincke and Kremer sodium caseinate/borax solution. The thick stuff is 15% and if Jacques was right, it may be Schmincke thinner stuff is 10-12%. > > No conclusions drawn quite eyt, but that ammonium caseinate behaves quite differently, whipping up in either concentration as whipped egg whites and then going into solution within a couple hours. > > More thoughts on this later but at least this will start a Monday morning conversation off. > > BTW more caseins up on my website in the Past Lives folder. All are made with earth pigments (iron oxides, ultramarine no gum arabic), because I wanted to make sure not to muck up my observations with watercolor that contains gum arabic. Now comparing same images made with the usual magenta/thalo/azo yellow watercolors for comparison. > > Taught casein in class last Wednesday and one student got a full tricolor in 2 hr. That's enough to make the process appealing, huh? A couple students were immediately hooked, and this is while they are still in their gum unit. > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Tue Apr 12 00:01:15 2011 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 18:01:15 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source In-Reply-To: References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net> Message-ID: <46FE13EE-84EA-4DDA-8C2F-140BCA6556D7@montana.net> Marek, You can buy the caseinate from Kremer premixed or in powder form, here: http://kremerpigments.com/shopus/index.php?lang=ENG&list=0210 Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Apr 11, 2011, at 2:33 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > > Chris, > Trying to follow up on this long strand of posts. > First of all you images are wonderful and I am so inspired with earth tone tricolors. I am not quite sure what casein source and salt are you using. DId you buy ammonium caseinate (where from), or did you make it from scratch? > Marek > >> From: zphoto at montana.net >> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 09:19:49 -0600 >> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >> Subject: [alt-photo] casein >> >> Dear All, >> >> I am continuing to work out the casein details, but thought I'd share a picture that applies to what I think Peter said, about the viscosity of casein that goes way up with percentage solutions. Peter, you are NOT kidding. >> >> http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=2076 >> >> This is a picture of the immediate viscosity of 10% vs 15% sodium caseinate. >> >> Have to go to school now but when I return I will see if it eventually liquifies, but this explains to me the vast differences between Schmincke and Kremer sodium caseinate/borax solution. The thick stuff is 15% and if Jacques was right, it may be Schmincke thinner stuff is 10-12%. >> >> No conclusions drawn quite eyt, but that ammonium caseinate behaves quite differently, whipping up in either concentration as whipped egg whites and then going into solution within a couple hours. >> >> More thoughts on this later but at least this will start a Monday morning conversation off. >> >> BTW more caseins up on my website in the Past Lives folder. All are made with earth pigments (iron oxides, ultramarine no gum arabic), because I wanted to make sure not to muck up my observations with watercolor that contains gum arabic. Now comparing same images made with the usual magenta/thalo/azo yellow watercolors for comparison. >> >> Taught casein in class last Wednesday and one student got a full tricolor in 2 hr. That's enough to make the process appealing, huh? A couple students were immediately hooked, and this is while they are still in their gum unit. >> Chris >> >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From alt.list at albertonovo.it Tue Apr 12 05:37:33 2011 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 07:37:33 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source In-Reply-To: <46FE13EE-84EA-4DDA-8C2F-140BCA6556D7@montana.net> References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net> <46FE13EE-84EA-4DDA-8C2F-140BCA6556D7@montana.net> Message-ID: <20110412053733.11289.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> Chris, > You can buy the caseinate from Kremer premixed or in powder form, here: > http://kremerpigments.com/shopus/index.php?lang=ENG&list=0210 Kremer sells only pure casein and casein/borax glue. Did you prepare your ammonium caseinate following their recipe in http://kremer-pigmente.de/Texte/casein.pdf ? Alberto www.grupponamias.com www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group From zphoto at montana.net Tue Apr 12 14:03:17 2011 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 08:03:17 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source In-Reply-To: <20110412053733.11289.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net> <46FE13EE-84EA-4DDA-8C2F-140BCA6556D7@montana.net> <20110412053733.11289.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> Message-ID: <2E51EF7D-6E07-4759-BF85-776BA5B39DC0@montana.net> Alberto, I did not buy my casein powder from Kremer, just my two forms of liquid casein. I was able to get samples of sodium and ammonium which I mixed with no added alkali. I wanted to compare apples to apples in the mixing. Ammonium does get thinner after a few days and I am waiting to see if sodium does, too. And how sodium performs compared to ammonium. Ammonium is thin enough to use right off the bat, though, after the foam subsides, whereas sodium is too thick to use in that equivalent time period. I am not drawing any conclusions here at all, and know that Sam Wang always used the sodium form. I guess my only conclusion is the two forms are not apples to apples in practice, and if I were to use sodium right off the bat I would have to dilute further than 10%. BTW I have been testing casein with an added tube of watercolor pigment now and there is a gloss. It is amazing how much that little bit of gum arabic changes the look when it is only 6% of it. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Apr 11, 2011, at 11:37 PM, Alberto Novo wrote: > Chris, >> You can buy the caseinate from Kremer premixed or in powder form, here: >> http://kremerpigments.com/shopus/index.php?lang=ENG&list=0210 > > Kremer sells only pure casein and casein/borax glue. > Did you prepare your ammonium caseinate following their recipe in > http://kremer-pigmente.de/Texte/casein.pdf ? > Alberto > www.grupponamias.com > www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Tue Apr 12 14:20:41 2011 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 08:20:41 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source In-Reply-To: <20110412053733.11289.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net> <46FE13EE-84EA-4DDA-8C2F-140BCA6556D7@montana.net> <20110412053733.11289.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> Message-ID: One other thing, Alberto, since Kremer has a European store, and already sells the casein in two liquid forms (the Schmincke my preference) it may be that the powder is unnecessary except for the purist. I wonder if there is a market for the ammonium form. It has to be bought in bulk, minimum quantity enough to make (I calculated) 50,000 casein tricolors...:( Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Apr 11, 2011, at 11:37 PM, Alberto Novo wrote: > Chris, >> You can buy the caseinate from Kremer premixed or in powder form, here: >> http://kremerpigments.com/shopus/index.php?lang=ENG&list=0210 > > Kremer sells only pure casein and casein/borax glue. > Did you prepare your ammonium caseinate following their recipe in > http://kremer-pigmente.de/Texte/casein.pdf ? > Alberto > www.grupponamias.com > www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From alt.list at albertonovo.it Tue Apr 12 14:33:36 2011 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:33:36 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source In-Reply-To: <2E51EF7D-6E07-4759-BF85-776BA5B39DC0@montana.net> References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net> <46FE13EE-84EA-4DDA-8C2F-140BCA6556D7@montana.net> <20110412053733.11289.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> <2E51EF7D-6E07-4759-BF85-776BA5B39DC0@montana.net> Message-ID: <20110412143336.20153.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> Chris, > ... I was able to get samples of sodium and ammonium which I mixed with no added alkali. I wanted to compare apples to apples in the mixing. Ammonium does get thinner after a few days and I am waiting to see if sodium does, too. The alkalies break the bonds among carboxylic and amino group of the casein, which is a protein. The stronger the alkaly, the faster should be this effect. When I prepared my mix from casein and ammonia, I found that it would last about a week in a tightly sealed jar in my refrigerator. However, as I have already told, such a mix can be ready for use in less about half an hour. Alberto www.grupponamias.com www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group From blackburnap at hotmail.com Tue Apr 12 15:16:46 2011 From: blackburnap at hotmail.com (Peter Blackburn) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 10:16:46 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source In-Reply-To: <20110412143336.20153.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net>, , <46FE13EE-84EA-4DDA-8C2F-140BCA6556D7@montana.net>, <20110412053733.11289.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it>, <2E51EF7D-6E07-4759-BF85-776BA5B39DC0@montana.net>, <20110412143336.20153.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> Message-ID: Alberto: Yes, you are exactly right?and you seem to handle your casein the same as I do. Ammonia breaks down the casein quickly at first and then progressively slower. When all is said and done, the ammonia odor becomes less pronounced as it balances with the dissolved casein leaving a "clean" smell. Peter J. Blackburn > From: alt.list at albertonovo.it > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:33:36 +0200 > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source > > Chris, > > > ... I was able to get samples of sodium and ammonium which I mixed with no added alkali. I wanted to compare apples to apples in the mixing. Ammonium does get thinner after a few days and I am waiting to see if sodium does, too. > > The alkalies break the bonds among carboxylic and amino group of the casein, > which is a protein. The stronger the alkaly, the faster should be this > effect. > When I prepared my mix from casein and ammonia, I found that it would last > about a week in a tightly sealed jar in my refrigerator. However, as I have > already told, such a mix can be ready for use in less about half an hour. > > Alberto > > www.grupponamias.com > www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Tue Apr 12 17:59:57 2011 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 11:59:57 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source In-Reply-To: <20110412143336.20153.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net> <46FE13EE-84EA-4DDA-8C2F-140BCA6556D7@montana.net> <20110412053733.11289.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> <2E51EF7D-6E07-4759-BF85-776BA5B39DC0@montana.net> <20110412143336.20153.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> Message-ID: Alberto, When you say "last a week" do you mean it was no longer usable or just stunk? Did it no longer respond to dichromate hardening and UV light? It calls to mind how they used to let gum sour so it was quicker acting, back in the late 1800s. My ammonium caseinate was ready to use essentially within a couple hours. There is no smell whatsoever, except for a slight milk odor. Very user friendly. Sodium less so. 24 hours later my sodium caseinate is like a very concentrated rubbery gelatin solution that I would have to liquify before use. I have absolutely no idea why the big difference between the two forms of casein. Maybe you can clarify? I am not interested in a process using ammonia fumes, really just looking for one that is whip 'n' go. The quicker and easier the better it is for students (and me), hence a little bottle of liquid casein or a jar of powdered casein would be just so...convenient. Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Apr 12, 2011, at 8:33 AM, Alberto Novo wrote: > Chris, >> ... I was able to get samples of sodium and ammonium which I mixed with no added alkali. I wanted to compare apples to apples in the mixing. Ammonium does get thinner after a few days and I am waiting to see if sodium does, too. > > The alkalies break the bonds among carboxylic and amino group of the casein, which is a protein. The stronger the alkaly, the faster should be this effect. > When I prepared my mix from casein and ammonia, I found that it would last about a week in a tightly sealed jar in my refrigerator. However, as I have already told, such a mix can be ready for use in less about half an hour. > Alberto > www.grupponamias.com > www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From donsbryant at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 20:37:10 2011 From: donsbryant at gmail.com (Don Bryant) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:37:10 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Storage life of diluted Gamblin PVA In-Reply-To: References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net>, , <46FE13EE-84EA-4DDA-8C2F-140BCA6556D7@montana.net>, <20110412053733.11289.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it>, <2E51EF7D-6E07-4759-BF85-776BA5B39DC0@montana.net>, <20110412143336.20153.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> Message-ID: I wonder if anyone can comment of the storage life of diluted Gamblin PVA using distilled water. Thanks, Don Bryant -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Peter Blackburn Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 11:17 AM To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source Alberto: Yes, you are exactly right-and you seem to handle your casein the same as I do. Ammonia breaks down the casein quickly at first and then progressively slower. When all is said and done, the ammonia odor becomes less pronounced as it balances with the dissolved casein leaving a "clean" smell. Peter J. Blackburn > From: alt.list at albertonovo.it > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:33:36 +0200 > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source > > Chris, > > > ... I was able to get samples of sodium and ammonium which I mixed with no added alkali. I wanted to compare apples to apples in the mixing. Ammonium does get thinner after a few days and I am waiting to see if sodium does, too. > > The alkalies break the bonds among carboxylic and amino group of the casein, > which is a protein. The stronger the alkaly, the faster should be this > effect. > When I prepared my mix from casein and ammonia, I found that it would last > about a week in a tightly sealed jar in my refrigerator. However, as I have > already told, such a mix can be ready for use in less about half an hour. > > Alberto > > www.grupponamias.com > www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From jeremydmoore at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 20:39:17 2011 From: jeremydmoore at gmail.com (Jeremy Moore) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 15:39:17 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Storage life of diluted Gamblin PVA In-Reply-To: References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net> <46FE13EE-84EA-4DDA-8C2F-140BCA6556D7@montana.net> <20110412053733.11289.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> <2E51EF7D-6E07-4759-BF85-776BA5B39DC0@montana.net> <20110412143336.20153.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> Message-ID: So far 6 months is okay, but that's as long as I've had any sit. Just shake it up and you're good. On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Don Bryant wrote: > I wonder if anyone can comment of the storage life of diluted Gamblin PVA > using distilled water. > > Thanks, > > Don Bryant > > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf > Of > Peter Blackburn > Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 11:17 AM > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source > > > Alberto: > > Yes, you are exactly right-and you seem to handle your casein the same as I > do. Ammonia breaks down the casein quickly at first and then progressively > slower. When all is said and done, the ammonia odor becomes less pronounced > as it balances with the dissolved casein leaving a "clean" smell. > > Peter J. Blackburn > > > > From: alt.list at albertonovo.it > > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > > Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:33:36 +0200 > > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source > > > > Chris, > > > > > ... I was able to get samples of sodium and ammonium which I mixed with > no added alkali. I wanted to compare apples to apples in the mixing. > Ammonium does get thinner after a few days and I am waiting to see if > sodium > does, too. > > > > The alkalies break the bonds among carboxylic and amino group of the > casein, > > which is a protein. The stronger the alkaly, the faster should be this > > effect. > > When I prepared my mix from casein and ammonia, I found that it would > last > > > about a week in a tightly sealed jar in my refrigerator. However, as I > have > > already told, such a mix can be ready for use in less about half an hour. > > > > Alberto > > > > www.grupponamias.com > > www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From donsbryant at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 20:43:36 2011 From: donsbryant at gmail.com (Don Bryant) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 16:43:36 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Storage life of diluted Gamblin PVA In-Reply-To: References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net><46FE13EE-84EA-4DDA-8C2F-140BCA6556D7@montana.net><20110412053733.11289.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it><2E51EF7D-6E07-4759-BF85-776BA5B39DC0@montana.net><20110412143336.20153.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> Message-ID: <09A1DBD1E20B48B896626AA5CAA033CA@austinpowers> Thanks Jeremy! So far 6 months is okay, but that's as long as I've had any sit. Just shake it up and you're good. On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Don Bryant wrote: > I wonder if anyone can comment of the storage life of diluted Gamblin PVA > using distilled water. > > Thanks, > > Don Bryant > From kakarott76 at hotmail.com Tue Apr 12 22:38:29 2011 From: kakarott76 at hotmail.com (Kurt Nagy) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 17:38:29 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Storage life of diluted Gamblin PVA In-Reply-To: <09A1DBD1E20B48B896626AA5CAA033CA@austinpowers> References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net> <46FE13EE-84EA-4DDA-8C2F-140BCA6556D7@montana.net> <20110412053733.11289.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> <2E51EF7D-6E07-4759-BF85-776BA5B39DC0@montana.net> <20110412143336.20153.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <09A1DBD1E20B48B896626AA5CAA033CA@austinpowers> Message-ID: How many passes or coats do you guys do? Do you do full strength or dilute 2:1? On Apr 12, 2011, at 3:43 PM, Don Bryant wrote: > Thanks Jeremy! > > > So far 6 months is okay, but that's as long as I've had any sit. Just shake > it up and you're good. > > On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Don Bryant wrote: > >> I wonder if anyone can comment of the storage life of diluted Gamblin PVA >> using distilled water. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Don Bryant >> > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From donsbryant at gmail.com Tue Apr 12 23:24:16 2011 From: donsbryant at gmail.com (Don Bryant) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 19:24:16 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Storage life of diluted Gamblin PVA In-Reply-To: References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net><46FE13EE-84EA-4DDA-8C2F-140BCA6556D7@montana.net><20110412053733.11289.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it><2E51EF7D-6E07-4759-BF85-776BA5B39DC0@montana.net><20110412143336.20153.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><09A1DBD1E20B48B896626AA5CAA033CA@austinpowers> Message-ID: <6EC46B8002C6498D874102462976555B@TravlinHP> Perhaps this vid well help (courtesy of Jeremy Moore) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqGTDS5RNO0 -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Kurt Nagy Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 6:38 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Storage life of diluted Gamblin PVA How many passes or coats do you guys do? Do you do full strength or dilute 2:1? On Apr 12, 2011, at 3:43 PM, Don Bryant wrote: > Thanks Jeremy! > > > So far 6 months is okay, but that's as long as I've had any sit. Just shake > it up and you're good. > > On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Don Bryant wrote: > >> I wonder if anyone can comment of the storage life of diluted Gamblin PVA >> using distilled water. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Don Bryant >> > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From donsbryant at gmail.com Wed Apr 13 01:08:12 2011 From: donsbryant at gmail.com (Don Bryant) Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 21:08:12 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Storage life of diluted Gamblin PVA In-Reply-To: References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net><46FE13EE-84EA-4DDA-8C2F-140BCA6556D7@montana.net><20110412053733.11289.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it><2E51EF7D-6E07-4759-BF85-776BA5B39DC0@montana.net><20110412143336.20153.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><09A1DBD1E20B48B896626AA5CAA033CA@austinpowers> Message-ID: <2F492860D1144A7F94F9B45ADD79CB35@TravlinHP> Kurt, I've used Gamblin 1:1, 1:2, and 1:3. My preference for gum printing with papers that are heavily sized but pre-shrunk is 1:2. For gum over palladium I've noticed little difference between 1:1 and 1:2. Experiment and see what you like. I still prefer gelatin sized paper hardened with glut but Gamblin gives you another tool for quick work when needed and doesn't look bad. Hope this helps, Don -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Kurt Nagy Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 6:38 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Storage life of diluted Gamblin PVA How many passes or coats do you guys do? Do you do full strength or dilute 2:1? On Apr 12, 2011, at 3:43 PM, Don Bryant wrote: > Thanks Jeremy! > > > So far 6 months is okay, but that's as long as I've had any sit. Just shake > it up and you're good. > > On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 3:37 PM, Don Bryant wrote: > >> I wonder if anyone can comment of the storage life of diluted Gamblin PVA >> using distilled water. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Don Bryant >> > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From alt.list at albertonovo.it Wed Apr 13 10:01:53 2011 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:01:53 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source In-Reply-To: References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net> <46FE13EE-84EA-4DDA-8C2F-140BCA6556D7@montana.net> <20110412053733.11289.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> <2E51EF7D-6E07-4759-BF85-776BA5B39DC0@montana.net> <20110412143336.20153.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> Message-ID: <20110413100154.13362.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> Chris, > When you say "last a week" do you mean it was no longer usable or just stunk? Did it no longer respond to dichromate hardening and UV light? It was more fluid than the first two or three days before its preparation, and it was printing slower. My casein solution has an excess of ammonia, so it was stinking the same. > My ammonium caseinate was ready to use essentially within a couple hours. There is no smell whatsoever, except for a slight milk odor. Very user friendly. Sodium less so. 24 hours later my sodium caseinate is like a very concentrated rubbery gelatin solution that I would have to liquify before use. I have absolutely no idea why the big difference between the two forms of casein. Maybe you can clarify? Sorry, I have not any idea about the different behaviour of ammonium vs. sodium caseinate. > I am not interested in a process using ammonia fumes, really just looking for one that is whip 'n' go. The quicker and easier the better it is for students (and me), hence a little bottle of liquid casein or a jar of powdered casein would be just so...convenient. In this perspective, go on with your ammonium caseinate. Alberto www.grupponamias.com www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Wed Apr 13 14:24:14 2011 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 14:24:14 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source In-Reply-To: References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net>, , <46FE13EE-84EA-4DDA-8C2F-140BCA6556D7@montana.net>, <20110412053733.11289.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it>, <2E51EF7D-6E07-4759-BF85-776BA5B39DC0@montana.net>, <20110412143336.20153.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it>, Message-ID: I found this interesting link about casein paints. Ammonium carbonate is a solid and well defined chemical. I am going to give it a try http://www.earthpigments.com/art/artists-casein.cfm marek > From: zphoto at montana.net > Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 11:59:57 -0600 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source > > Alberto, > When you say "last a week" do you mean it was no longer usable or just stunk? Did it no longer respond to dichromate hardening and UV light? > It calls to mind how they used to let gum sour so it was quicker acting, back in the late 1800s. > My ammonium caseinate was ready to use essentially within a couple hours. There is no smell whatsoever, except for a slight milk odor. Very user friendly. Sodium less so. 24 hours later my sodium caseinate is like a very concentrated rubbery gelatin solution that I would have to liquify before use. I have absolutely no idea why the big difference between the two forms of casein. Maybe you can clarify? > I am not interested in a process using ammonia fumes, really just looking for one that is whip 'n' go. The quicker and easier the better it is for students (and me), hence a little bottle of liquid casein or a jar of powdered casein would be just so...convenient. > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > On Apr 12, 2011, at 8:33 AM, Alberto Novo wrote: > > > Chris, > >> ... I was able to get samples of sodium and ammonium which I mixed with no added alkali. I wanted to compare apples to apples in the mixing. Ammonium does get thinner after a few days and I am waiting to see if sodium does, too. > > > > The alkalies break the bonds among carboxylic and amino group of the casein, which is a protein. The stronger the alkaly, the faster should be this effect. > > When I prepared my mix from casein and ammonia, I found that it would last about a week in a tightly sealed jar in my refrigerator. However, as I have already told, such a mix can be ready for use in less about half an hour. > > Alberto > > www.grupponamias.com > > www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Wed Apr 13 15:13:13 2011 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 09:13:13 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source In-Reply-To: References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net>, , <46FE13EE-84EA-4DDA-8C2F-140BCA6556D7@montana.net>, <20110412053733.11289.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it>, <2E51EF7D-6E07-4759-BF85-776BA5B39DC0@montana.net>, <20110412143336.20153.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it>, Message-ID: <53911866-F7DD-4D01-82BB-C83F060AF1A1@montana.net> Marek, This is wonderful!! Great source and ideas. Looks like they are using a 12.5% dilution. Let me know how their casein mixes for you. More later when I digest some thoughts.. Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Apr 13, 2011, at 8:24 AM, Marek Matusz wrote: > > I found this interesting link about casein paints. Ammonium carbonate is a solid and well defined chemical. I am going to give it a try > http://www.earthpigments.com/art/artists-casein.cfm > marek > >> From: zphoto at montana.net >> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 11:59:57 -0600 >> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source >> >> Alberto, >> When you say "last a week" do you mean it was no longer usable or just stunk? Did it no longer respond to dichromate hardening and UV light? >> It calls to mind how they used to let gum sour so it was quicker acting, back in the late 1800s. >> My ammonium caseinate was ready to use essentially within a couple hours. There is no smell whatsoever, except for a slight milk odor. Very user friendly. Sodium less so. 24 hours later my sodium caseinate is like a very concentrated rubbery gelatin solution that I would have to liquify before use. I have absolutely no idea why the big difference between the two forms of casein. Maybe you can clarify? >> I am not interested in a process using ammonia fumes, really just looking for one that is whip 'n' go. The quicker and easier the better it is for students (and me), hence a little bottle of liquid casein or a jar of powdered casein would be just so...convenient. >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> >> On Apr 12, 2011, at 8:33 AM, Alberto Novo wrote: >> >>> Chris, >>>> ... I was able to get samples of sodium and ammonium which I mixed with no added alkali. I wanted to compare apples to apples in the mixing. Ammonium does get thinner after a few days and I am waiting to see if sodium does, too. >>> >>> The alkalies break the bonds among carboxylic and amino group of the casein, which is a protein. The stronger the alkaly, the faster should be this effect. >>> When I prepared my mix from casein and ammonia, I found that it would last about a week in a tightly sealed jar in my refrigerator. However, as I have already told, such a mix can be ready for use in less about half an hour. >>> Alberto >>> www.grupponamias.com >>> www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From alt.list at albertonovo.it Thu Apr 14 05:44:15 2011 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 07:44:15 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source In-Reply-To: References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net> <46FE13EE-84EA-4DDA-8C2F-140BCA6556D7@montana.net> <20110412053733.11289.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> <2E51EF7D-6E07-4759-BF85-776BA5B39DC0@montana.net> <20110412143336.20153.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> Message-ID: <20110414054415.31166.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> Marek, > I found this interesting link about casein paints. Ammonium carbonate is a solid and well defined chemical. I am going to give it a try > http://www.earthpigments.com/art/artists-casein.cfm their recipe is similar to Kremer's: http://kremer-pigmente.de/Texte/casein.pdf differencies: the ratio casein/ammonium carbonate is 4 in Kremer and 2 in EarthPigments (half carbonate in K than in EP), the concentration is about 16% in K and 12.5 in EP. If Kremer's recipe works, then a high content of ammonium carbonate is not needed. 16% casein is what I used in my single coat prints with natural earth. Alberto www.grupponamias.com www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Thu Apr 14 17:02:08 2011 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 17:02:08 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source In-Reply-To: <20110414054415.31166.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net>, , <46FE13EE-84EA-4DDA-8C2F-140BCA6556D7@montana.net>, <20110412053733.11289.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it>, <2E51EF7D-6E07-4759-BF85-776BA5B39DC0@montana.net>, <20110412143336.20153.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it>, , , <20110414054415.31166.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> Message-ID: Alberto, Thanks for a good reference Marek > From: alt.list at albertonovo.it > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 07:44:15 +0200 > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source > > Marek, > > > I found this interesting link about casein paints. Ammonium carbonate is a solid and well defined chemical. I am going to give it a try > > http://www.earthpigments.com/art/artists-casein.cfm > > their recipe is similar to Kremer's: > http://kremer-pigmente.de/Texte/casein.pdf > > differencies: > the ratio casein/ammonium carbonate is 4 in Kremer and 2 in EarthPigments > (half carbonate in K than in EP), > the concentration is about 16% in K and 12.5 in EP. > > If Kremer's recipe works, then a high content of ammonium carbonate is not > needed. > 16% casein is what I used in my single coat prints with natural earth. > > Alberto > www.grupponamias.com > www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Thu Apr 14 15:57:03 2011 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 09:57:03 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source In-Reply-To: <20110414054415.31166.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net> <46FE13EE-84EA-4DDA-8C2F-140BCA6556D7@montana.net> <20110412053733.11289.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> <2E51EF7D-6E07-4759-BF85-776BA5B39DC0@montana.net> <20110412143336.20153.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <20110414054415.31166.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> Message-ID: <63C1DEF8-6F9C-44F7-AFED-88F1EA9104EB@montana.net> Dear You Two, This is what I found interesting in Marek's website mention, why this list is so nice to have these conversations. I did a layer of casein on Yupo and on Kwik Print plastic. On both I was able to wipe off pigment like wiping chalk off a chalkboard. However, if what the website says is correct, that if you can wipe paint off you need more binder, then I will go back and revisit Yupo and Kwik Print paper with less pigment/more binder. So until proven guilty, these papers are not out yet. Two, the benefit of ammonium caseinate powder is there is no additional chemical needed, no heat, just mix n go. It whips up to egg foam, subsides in a couple hours to a pancake syrup consistency (thinner than the Schmincke which is a very thick corn syrup) and gets more watery in the week. Very thin, fine, works fine even two weeks later except that if using earth pigments it must be shaken (as in gum, too). I use thymol as a preservative. The watery solution doesn't go "off" and become unusable, albeit thinner. Three, the fact that in the ammonia recipe the chemical reaction is created over time with no heat is probably why the ammonium caseinate works so well for me and not the sodium caseinate, that it has the "reactor" in it already which the sodium does not. My sodium caseinate is still a rubbery glob after several days, only usable if heated to a liquid, just as gelatin. The odd thing about casein is 40g mixed in 400ml water, my proportion, still only produced 400ml, of final solution. In other words the powder at 10% doesn't add enough volume to make it worth mixing first in 300 and then adding water to 400ml. Granted, evaporation happens in MT with 20% humidity...but when Marek's site says 2 parts casein + 16 parts water I think it really does end up to be very close to 2 IN 16 not 2 IN total volume 18, not that there is much difference, the former being 12.5% and the latter about 11%. Since Schmincke and Kremer provide a liquid version of casein binder do you think there is a market for the ammonium caseinate powder? Wonder why the paint companies don't provide the ammonium caseinate? There's got to be a reason, perhaps a viscosity reason, that just regular casein is sold only it seems. Chris Three, the two recipes on Marek's website say this: ? 2 parts Casein Powder ? 16 parts water ? 1 part Ammonium Carbonate (or clear liquid ammonia*) ? Dry Pigments paste water OR ? 5 parts Casein Powder ? 9 parts Cold Water ? 2 parts Borax ? 9 parts Hot water Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Apr 13, 2011, at 11:44 PM, Alberto Novo wrote: > Marek, >> I found this interesting link about casein paints. Ammonium carbonate is a solid and well defined chemical. I am going to give it a try >> http://www.earthpigments.com/art/artists-casein.cfm > > their recipe is similar to Kremer's: > http://kremer-pigmente.de/Texte/casein.pdf > differencies: > the ratio casein/ammonium carbonate is 4 in Kremer and 2 in EarthPigments (half carbonate in K than in EP), > the concentration is about 16% in K and 12.5 in EP. > If Kremer's recipe works, then a high content of ammonium carbonate is not needed. > 16% casein is what I used in my single coat prints with natural earth. > Alberto > www.grupponamias.com > www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From amackellar at qx.net Thu Apr 14 20:51:37 2011 From: amackellar at qx.net (Alan MacKellar) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 16:51:37 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source In-Reply-To: <63C1DEF8-6F9C-44F7-AFED-88F1EA9104EB@montana.net> References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net><46FE13EE-84EA-4DDA-8C 2F-140BCA6556D7@montana.net><20110412053733.11289.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it><2E51EF7D-6E07-4759-BF85-776BA5B39DC0@montana.net>< 20110412143336.20153.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><20110414054415.31166.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <63C1DEF8-6F9C-44F7-AFED-88F1EA9104EB@montana.net> Message-ID: <604C3E5F658A4C5CBD38A00DA3A7DC63@ALANDEN> Christina, I just received a liter of the Schmincke Cesein Liquid provided by Kremer which as I think you said many messages ago, does not give me any ideas about how much of it to mix with the pigment, and then the ammonium dichromate. You have given me a lot of information, and probably the answer below, but how many ml of this Casein would you combine with say a tube of watercolor pigment, to be later combined with the light sensitizer at the point of brushing? I am slow minded and had trouble following you experts on the proper proportions. And where did the student in your class get his/her tri-color savings in time? In drying of the emulsion time, use of a cool hair dryer, exposure under UV, in development time in water? I am a student with Ruth this semester, and our final project is due in 2 weeks, so should I stick with the slower gum arabic method? Sorry to bother you at an equally busy time for you, but any method that produces the same quality quicker is welcome. Love to all, Alan ----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Christina Anderson Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 11:57 AM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source Dear You Two, This is what I found interesting in Marek's website mention, why this list is so nice to have these conversations. I did a layer of casein on Yupo and on Kwik Print plastic. On both I was able to wipe off pigment like wiping chalk off a chalkboard. However, if what the website says is correct, that if you can wipe paint off you need more binder, then I will go back and revisit Yupo and Kwik Print paper with less pigment/more binder. So until proven guilty, these papers are not out yet. Two, the benefit of ammonium caseinate powder is there is no additional chemical needed, no heat, just mix n go. It whips up to egg foam, subsides in a couple hours to a pancake syrup consistency (thinner than the Schmincke which is a very thick corn syrup) and gets more watery in the week. Very thin, fine, works fine even two weeks later except that if using earth pigments it must be shaken (as in gum, too). I use thymol as a preservative. The watery solution doesn't go "off" and become unusable, albeit thinner. Three, the fact that in the ammonia recipe the chemical reaction is created over time with no heat is probably why the ammonium caseinate works so well for me and not the sodium caseinate, that it has the "reactor" in it already which the sodium does not. My sodium caseinate is still a rubbery glob after several days, only usable if heated to a liquid, just as gelatin. The odd thing about casein is 40g mixed in 400ml water, my proportion, still only produced 400ml, of final solution. In other words the powder at 10% doesn't add enough volume to make it worth mixing first in 300 and then adding water to 400ml. Granted, evaporation happens in MT with 20% humidity...but when Marek's site says 2 parts casein + 16 parts water I think it really does end up to be very close to 2 IN 16 not 2 IN total volume 18, not that there is much difference, the former being 12.5% and the latter about 11%. Since Schmincke and Kremer provide a liquid version of casein binder do you think there is a market for the ammonium caseinate powder? Wonder why the paint companies don't provide the ammonium caseinate? There's got to be a reason, perhaps a viscosity reason, that just regular casein is sold only it seems. Chris Three, the two recipes on Marek's website say this: . 2 parts Casein Powder . 16 parts water . 1 part Ammonium Carbonate (or clear liquid ammonia*) . Dry Pigments paste water OR . 5 parts Casein Powder . 9 parts Cold Water . 2 parts Borax . 9 parts Hot water Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com From amackellar at qx.net Thu Apr 14 20:54:24 2011 From: amackellar at qx.net (Alan MacKellar) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 16:54:24 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source In-Reply-To: <604C3E5F658A4C5CBD38A00DA3A7DC63@ALANDEN> References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net><46FE13EE-84EA-4DDA-8C 2F-140BCA6556D7@montana.net><20110412053733.11289.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it><2E51EF7D-6E07-4759-BF85-776BA5B39DC0@montana.net>< 20110412143336.20153.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><20110414054415.31166.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <63C1DEF8-6F9C-44F7-AFED-88F1EA9104EB@montana.net> <604C3E5F658A4C5CBD38A00DA3A7DC63@ALANDEN> Message-ID: <2E15E5C8ACA14F908C144192546ECABB@ALANDEN> Sorry, I hit the wrong button. Alan -----Original Message----- From: Alan MacKellar [mailto:amackellar at qx.net] Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 4:52 PM To: 'The alternative photographic processes mailing list' Cc: amackellar at qx.net Subject: RE: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source Christina, I just received a liter of the Schmincke Cesein Liquid provided by Kremer which as I think you said many messages ago, does not give me any ideas about how much of it to mix with the pigment, and then the ammonium dichromate. You have given me a lot of information, and probably the answer below, but how many ml of this Casein would you combine with say a tube of watercolor pigment, to be later combined with the light sensitizer at the point of brushing? I am slow minded and had trouble following you experts on the proper proportions. And where did the student in your class get his/her tri-color savings in time? In drying of the emulsion time, use of a cool hair dryer, exposure under UV, in development time in water? I am a student with Ruth this semester, and our final project is due in 2 weeks, so should I stick with the slower gum arabic method? Sorry to bother you at an equally busy time for you, but any method that produces the same quality quicker is welcome. Love to all, Alan ----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Christina Anderson Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 11:57 AM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source Dear You Two, This is what I found interesting in Marek's website mention, why this list is so nice to have these conversations. I did a layer of casein on Yupo and on Kwik Print plastic. On both I was able to wipe off pigment like wiping chalk off a chalkboard. However, if what the website says is correct, that if you can wipe paint off you need more binder, then I will go back and revisit Yupo and Kwik Print paper with less pigment/more binder. So until proven guilty, these papers are not out yet. Two, the benefit of ammonium caseinate powder is there is no additional chemical needed, no heat, just mix n go. It whips up to egg foam, subsides in a couple hours to a pancake syrup consistency (thinner than the Schmincke which is a very thick corn syrup) and gets more watery in the week. Very thin, fine, works fine even two weeks later except that if using earth pigments it must be shaken (as in gum, too). I use thymol as a preservative. The watery solution doesn't go "off" and become unusable, albeit thinner. Three, the fact that in the ammonia recipe the chemical reaction is created over time with no heat is probably why the ammonium caseinate works so well for me and not the sodium caseinate, that it has the "reactor" in it already which the sodium does not. My sodium caseinate is still a rubbery glob after several days, only usable if heated to a liquid, just as gelatin. The odd thing about casein is 40g mixed in 400ml water, my proportion, still only produced 400ml, of final solution. In other words the powder at 10% doesn't add enough volume to make it worth mixing first in 300 and then adding water to 400ml. Granted, evaporation happens in MT with 20% humidity...but when Marek's site says 2 parts casein + 16 parts water I think it really does end up to be very close to 2 IN 16 not 2 IN total volume 18, not that there is much difference, the former being 12.5% and the latter about 11%. Since Schmincke and Kremer provide a liquid version of casein binder do you think there is a market for the ammonium caseinate powder? Wonder why the paint companies don't provide the ammonium caseinate? There's got to be a reason, perhaps a viscosity reason, that just regular casein is sold only it seems. Chris Three, the two recipes on Marek's website say this: . 2 parts Casein Powder . 16 parts water . 1 part Ammonium Carbonate (or clear liquid ammonia*) . Dry Pigments paste water OR . 5 parts Casein Powder . 9 parts Cold Water . 2 parts Borax . 9 parts Hot water Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com From zphoto at montana.net Fri Apr 15 00:58:37 2011 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 18:58:37 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source In-Reply-To: <604C3E5F658A4C5CBD38A00DA3A7DC63@ALANDEN> References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net><46FE13EE-84EA-4DDA-8C 2F-140BCA6556D7@montana.net><20110412053733.11289.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it><2E51EF7D-6E07-4759-BF85-776BA5B39DC0@montana.net>< 20110412143336.20153.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><20110414054415.31166.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <63C1DEF8-6F9C-44F7-AFED-88F1EA9104EB@montana.net> <604C3E5F658A4C5CBD38A00DA3A7DC63@ALANDEN> Message-ID: Alan, I am hardly the one to ask at the moment about casein (it would be the blind leading the blind), as I am just working all these issues out and will certainly change all my current practices when I draw conclusions, more like several months down the road, but a very saturated starting point would be 1 tube pigment in 250ml casein. Layer is thinner than gum so you can use more color in the mix. Peter Blackburn or Alberto Novo would be better ones to ask than I. Also Keith Gerling has done a bunch. Use low am di--10%--or pot di 10%. 3 minute UVBL exposure. Development is quick--brush and roller can develop a print in under 15 minutes, for example. Hence the shorter times--layer dries quicker, exposes quicker, develops quicker, and with a hair dryer all of these steps are really quick tho a big waste of energy. But the curve is different than gum!! Neg needs to be denser and flatter than my 10/80 curve I have on alternativephotography.com. I would not start a casein project for Ruth's class when you are doing so well with your gums. Save it for summer exploration when you are not under the clock, IMHO. I am not in town at the moment by notes and other such stuff and won't be til next week, but did not want you to think I was ignoring you or, worse, that I had any holy grail at this point in my exploration :) Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Apr 14, 2011, at 2:51 PM, Alan MacKellar wrote: > Christina, > I just received a liter of the Schmincke Cesein Liquid provided by Kremer > which as I think you said many messages ago, does not give me any ideas > about how much of it to mix with the pigment, and then the ammonium > dichromate. You have given me a lot of information, and probably the answer > below, but how many ml of this Casein would you combine with say a tube of > watercolor pigment, to be later combined with the light sensitizer at the > point of brushing? > > I am slow minded and had trouble following you experts on the proper > proportions. And where did the student in your class get his/her tri-color > savings in time? In drying of the emulsion time, use of a cool hair dryer, > exposure under UV, in development time in water? I am a student with Ruth > this semester, and our final project is due in 2 weeks, so should I stick > with the slower gum arabic method? > > Sorry to bother you at an equally busy time for you, but any method that > produces the same quality quicker is welcome. > Love to all, > Alan > > ----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of > Christina Anderson > Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 11:57 AM > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source > > Dear You Two, > > This is what I found interesting in Marek's website mention, why this list > is so nice to have these conversations. > > I did a layer of casein on Yupo and on Kwik Print plastic. On both I was > able to wipe off pigment like wiping chalk off a chalkboard. However, if > what the website says is correct, that if you can wipe paint off you need > more binder, then I will go back and revisit Yupo and Kwik Print paper with > less pigment/more binder. So until proven guilty, these papers are not out > yet. > > Two, the benefit of ammonium caseinate powder is there is no additional > chemical needed, no heat, just mix n go. It whips up to egg foam, subsides > in a couple hours to a pancake syrup consistency (thinner than the Schmincke > which is a very thick corn syrup) and gets more watery in the week. Very > thin, fine, works fine even two weeks later except that if using earth > pigments it must be shaken (as in gum, too). I use thymol as a preservative. > The watery solution doesn't go "off" and become unusable, albeit thinner. > > Three, the fact that in the ammonia recipe the chemical reaction is created > over time with no heat is probably why the ammonium caseinate works so well > for me and not the sodium caseinate, that it has the "reactor" in it already > which the sodium does not. My sodium caseinate is still a rubbery glob after > several days, only usable if heated to a liquid, just as gelatin. > > The odd thing about casein is 40g mixed in 400ml water, my proportion, still > only produced 400ml, of final solution. In other words the powder at 10% > doesn't add enough volume to make it worth mixing first in 300 and then > adding water to 400ml. Granted, evaporation happens in MT with 20% > humidity...but when Marek's site says 2 parts casein + 16 parts water I > think it really does end up to be very close to 2 IN 16 not 2 IN total > volume 18, not that there is much difference, the former being 12.5% and the > latter about 11%. > > Since Schmincke and Kremer provide a liquid version of casein binder do you > think there is a market for the ammonium caseinate powder? Wonder why the > paint companies don't provide the ammonium caseinate? There's got to be a > reason, perhaps a viscosity reason, that just regular casein is sold only it > seems. > Chris > > > Three, the two recipes on Marek's website say this: > > . 2 parts Casein Powder > . 16 parts water > . 1 part Ammonium Carbonate > (or clear liquid ammonia*) > . Dry Pigments paste water > > OR > > . 5 parts Casein Powder > . 9 parts Cold Water > . 2 parts Borax > . 9 parts Hot water > > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Fri Apr 15 01:02:36 2011 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 19:02:36 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source In-Reply-To: References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net><46FE13EE-84EA-4DDA-8C 2F-140BCA6556D7@montana.net><20110412053733.11289.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it><2E51EF7D-6E07-4759-BF85-776BA5B39DC0@montana.net>< 20110412143336.20153.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it><20110414054415.31166.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <63C1DEF8-6F9C-44F7-AFED-88F1EA9104EB@montana.net> <604C3E5F658A4C5CBD38A00DA3A7DC63@ALANDEN> Message-ID: <73B50818-298A-4125-9A62-BC0F6F5DD25F@montana.net> "Hence the shorter times--layer dries quicker, exposes quicker, develops quicker, and with a hair dryer all of these steps are really quick tho a big waste of energy." whoops my message was unclear. the big waste of energy is the hair dryer, not the process... Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Apr 14, 2011, at 6:58 PM, Christina Anderson wrote: > Alan, > I am hardly the one to ask at the moment about casein (it would be the blind leading the blind), as I am just working all these issues out and will certainly change all my current practices when I draw conclusions, more like several months down the road, but a very saturated starting point would be 1 tube pigment in 250ml casein. Layer is thinner than gum so you can use more color in the mix. Peter Blackburn or Alberto Novo would be better ones to ask than I. Also Keith Gerling has done a bunch. > Use low am di--10%--or pot di 10%. 3 minute UVBL exposure. Development is quick--brush and roller can develop a print in under 15 minutes, for example. Hence the shorter times--layer dries quicker, exposes quicker, develops quicker, and with a hair dryer all of these steps are really quick tho a big waste of energy. > But the curve is different than gum!! Neg needs to be denser and flatter than my 10/80 curve I have on alternativephotography.com. > I would not start a casein project for Ruth's class when you are doing so well with your gums. Save it for summer exploration when you are not under the clock, IMHO. > I am not in town at the moment by notes and other such stuff and won't be til next week, but did not want you to think I was ignoring you or, worse, that I had any holy grail at this point in my exploration :) > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > On Apr 14, 2011, at 2:51 PM, Alan MacKellar wrote: > >> Christina, >> I just received a liter of the Schmincke Cesein Liquid provided by Kremer >> which as I think you said many messages ago, does not give me any ideas >> about how much of it to mix with the pigment, and then the ammonium >> dichromate. You have given me a lot of information, and probably the answer >> below, but how many ml of this Casein would you combine with say a tube of >> watercolor pigment, to be later combined with the light sensitizer at the >> point of brushing? >> >> I am slow minded and had trouble following you experts on the proper >> proportions. And where did the student in your class get his/her tri-color >> savings in time? In drying of the emulsion time, use of a cool hair dryer, >> exposure under UV, in development time in water? I am a student with Ruth >> this semester, and our final project is due in 2 weeks, so should I stick >> with the slower gum arabic method? >> >> Sorry to bother you at an equally busy time for you, but any method that >> produces the same quality quicker is welcome. >> Love to all, >> Alan >> >> ----Original Message----- >> From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org >> [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of >> Christina Anderson >> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 11:57 AM >> To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source >> >> Dear You Two, >> >> This is what I found interesting in Marek's website mention, why this list >> is so nice to have these conversations. >> >> I did a layer of casein on Yupo and on Kwik Print plastic. On both I was >> able to wipe off pigment like wiping chalk off a chalkboard. However, if >> what the website says is correct, that if you can wipe paint off you need >> more binder, then I will go back and revisit Yupo and Kwik Print paper with >> less pigment/more binder. So until proven guilty, these papers are not out >> yet. >> >> Two, the benefit of ammonium caseinate powder is there is no additional >> chemical needed, no heat, just mix n go. It whips up to egg foam, subsides >> in a couple hours to a pancake syrup consistency (thinner than the Schmincke >> which is a very thick corn syrup) and gets more watery in the week. Very >> thin, fine, works fine even two weeks later except that if using earth >> pigments it must be shaken (as in gum, too). I use thymol as a preservative. >> The watery solution doesn't go "off" and become unusable, albeit thinner. >> >> Three, the fact that in the ammonia recipe the chemical reaction is created >> over time with no heat is probably why the ammonium caseinate works so well >> for me and not the sodium caseinate, that it has the "reactor" in it already >> which the sodium does not. My sodium caseinate is still a rubbery glob after >> several days, only usable if heated to a liquid, just as gelatin. >> >> The odd thing about casein is 40g mixed in 400ml water, my proportion, still >> only produced 400ml, of final solution. In other words the powder at 10% >> doesn't add enough volume to make it worth mixing first in 300 and then >> adding water to 400ml. Granted, evaporation happens in MT with 20% >> humidity...but when Marek's site says 2 parts casein + 16 parts water I >> think it really does end up to be very close to 2 IN 16 not 2 IN total >> volume 18, not that there is much difference, the former being 12.5% and the >> latter about 11%. >> >> Since Schmincke and Kremer provide a liquid version of casein binder do you >> think there is a market for the ammonium caseinate powder? Wonder why the >> paint companies don't provide the ammonium caseinate? There's got to be a >> reason, perhaps a viscosity reason, that just regular casein is sold only it >> seems. >> Chris >> >> >> Three, the two recipes on Marek's website say this: >> >> . 2 parts Casein Powder >> . 16 parts water >> . 1 part Ammonium Carbonate >> (or clear liquid ammonia*) >> . Dry Pigments paste water >> >> OR >> >> . 5 parts Casein Powder >> . 9 parts Cold Water >> . 2 parts Borax >> . 9 parts Hot water >> >> >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From alt.list at albertonovo.it Fri Apr 15 06:53:21 2011 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 08:53:21 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source In-Reply-To: <63C1DEF8-6F9C-44F7-AFED-88F1EA9104EB@montana.net> References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net> <46FE13EE-84EA-4DDA-8C2F-140BCA6556D7@montana.net> <20110412053733.11289.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> <2E51EF7D-6E07-4759-BF85-776BA5B39DC0@montana.net> <20110412143336.20153.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <20110414054415.31166.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <63C1DEF8-6F9C-44F7-AFED-88F1EA9104EB@montana.net> Message-ID: <20110415065321.25519.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> Chris, > I did a layer of casein on Yupo and on Kwik Print plastic. On both I was able to wipe off pigment like wiping chalk off a chalkboard. However, if what the website says is correct, that if you can wipe paint off you need more binder, then I will go back and revisit Yupo and Kwik Print paper with less pigment/more binder. So until proven guilty, these papers are not out yet. Which website? > Three, the fact that in the ammonia recipe the chemical reaction is created over time with no heat is probably why the ammonium caseinate works so well for me and not the sodium caseinate, that it has the "reactor" in it already which the sodium does not. My sodium caseinate is still a rubbery glob after several days, only usable if heated to a liquid, just as gelatin. I would cite again US pat. 4,865,953 (1989) where sodium caseinate is used with ammonium dichromate to create a photoresist for etching TV screens. The composition is: 680 cc of 25% sodium hydroxide 60,000 cc of water 6,000 g of casein heated at 80?C for 30 minutes. To this solution is added some wetting agent, and ammonium or sodium dichromate in proportion of 5-15% of the casein. The amount of sodium hydroxide is near 3% of casein, and the solution is something less than 10% in casein The patentees declare that this composition has increased photosensitivity and shelf life than similar solutions made with borax. > Since Schmincke and Kremer provide a liquid version of casein binder do you think there is a market for the ammonium caseinate powder? Wonder why the paint companies don't provide the ammonium caseinate? There's got to be a reason, perhaps a viscosity reason, that just regular casein is sold only it seems. Those solutions are for painters and not for alt-printers. I am not a painter, but I believe that viscosity might be one among the more important properties in painting. Alberto www.grupponamias.com www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group From zphoto at montana.net Fri Apr 15 16:10:16 2011 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 10:10:16 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Casein source In-Reply-To: <20110415065321.25519.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> References: <5DF643CA-4418-4FB0-9750-DD74A4D5BAAA@montana.net> <46FE13EE-84EA-4DDA-8C2F-140BCA6556D7@montana.net> <20110412053733.11289.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> <2E51EF7D-6E07-4759-BF85-776BA5B39DC0@montana.net> <20110412143336.20153.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> <20110414054415.31166.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <63C1DEF8-6F9C-44F7-AFED-88F1EA9104EB@montana.net> <20110415065321.25519.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> Message-ID: <16C5559C-DE36-4B3C-8542-04E1A4689A4F@montana.net> Alberto, The website that Marek mentioned said this in the Introduction paragraph: Paint a small swatch on cardboard and let it dry for at least one hour. If it rubs off, you need to increase the amount of binder. Two, my point about ammonium caseinate vs. sodium caseinate is that the ammonium mixed up with no additional additives whereas the sodium did not. I have even heated it twice and it is still way too thick. Probably why it works best for painters. I am waiting to see if it ultimately gets more liquid as ammonium did. I do know the sodium works fine because it is what Sam Wang uses and what Franklin Enos did as well. Here is one formula that Enos had in his notes, below. There are lots of other formulas I have to decipher, and he occasionally used saponin (?) for I don't know what... 1.14.81 Wrote this to Ross, Sam, Albert 10g sod casein pdr 150cc water 60 drops glycerol 4 drops photoflo 12 drops 50% thymol then 2.3.81 mixed 15g in 150cc printed this 1.5-3mn Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Apr 15, 2011, at 12:53 AM, Alberto Novo wrote: > Chris, >> I did a layer of casein on Yupo and on Kwik Print plastic. On both I was able to wipe off pigment like wiping chalk off a chalkboard. However, if what the website says is correct, that if you can wipe paint off you need more binder, then I will go back and revisit Yupo and Kwik Print paper with less pigment/more binder. So until proven guilty, these papers are not out yet. > > Which website? >> Three, the fact that in the ammonia recipe the chemical reaction is created over time with no heat is probably why the ammonium caseinate works so well for me and not the sodium caseinate, that it has the "reactor" in it already which the sodium does not. My sodium caseinate is still a rubbery glob after several days, only usable if heated to a liquid, just as gelatin. > > I would cite again US pat. 4,865,953 (1989) where sodium caseinate is used with ammonium dichromate to create a photoresist for etching TV screens. The composition is: > 680 cc of 25% sodium hydroxide > 60,000 cc of water > 6,000 g of casein > heated at 80?C for 30 minutes. > To this solution is added some wetting agent, and ammonium or sodium dichromate in proportion of 5-15% of the casein. > The amount of sodium hydroxide is near 3% of casein, and the solution is something less than 10% in casein > The patentees declare that this composition has increased photosensitivity and shelf life than similar solutions made with borax. >> Since Schmincke and Kremer provide a liquid version of casein binder do you think there is a market for the ammonium caseinate powder? Wonder why the paint companies don't provide the ammonium caseinate? There's got to be a reason, perhaps a viscosity reason, that just regular casein is sold only it seems. > > Those solutions are for painters and not for alt-printers. I am not a painter, but I believe that viscosity might be one among the more important properties in painting. > Alberto > www.grupponamias.com > www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From bi3 at georgetown.edu Fri Apr 15 19:38:54 2011 From: bi3 at georgetown.edu (Suzanne Izzo) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:38:54 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Cliche Verre exhibit in San Francisco In-Reply-To: <4D9C771D.7070500@intaglioeditions.com> References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net>, <20110403053403.24591.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it>, , <20110404090244.14519.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it>, , <1B7566FC-3A7E-4142-8060-0F0D7E3CF2AD@montana.net> <87CC5B5A-81ED-4CDD-B881-2593919E7CEC@montana.net> <20110406002630.AKT46952@mstore-prod-2.pdc.uis.georgetown.edu> <4D9C771D.7070500@intaglioeditions.com> Message-ID: <4DA89ECE.5070605@georgetown.edu> I wrote a couple weeks ago about a cliche verre exhibit in San Francisco that included some of my work. My daughter and I attended the opening. The exhibit is in a very nice gallery right on Sutter Street in downtown San Francisco. I was very happy to meet Jack Fulton (a long-time member of the list) who came with a number of his students. Three other participating artists were there: Courtney Johnson (the curator), Fred Parker (from nearby Sonoma), and Frank Rossi (all the way from Germany). I would have liked to have met Francis Schanberger's friend, Fredrik Marsh, as the descriptive titles he gave his work were quite intriguing. Several of you asked about seeing some of the work. I don't have a web page, but the gallery site now has pictures of the exhibition as well as pictures of all the individual works. In the installation pictures, my pictures are the six small ones hung together on one wall. The address for the exhibition pictures is: http://www.jenkinsjohnsongallery.com/exhibitions/11cliche_verre/11clicheverre_main.html (Sorry--I hoped this would copy as clickable, but apparently not.) While in the Bay Area, I managed to visit 4 art museums. The only photography shows were at the SFMOMA: "Helios: Eadweard Muybridge in a Time of Change" which included a small room with photographs by some of his contemporaries and "Exposed: Voyeurism, Surveillance, and the Camera Since 1870". Suzanne Izzo From fotodave at dsoemarko.us Fri Apr 15 19:47:58 2011 From: fotodave at dsoemarko.us (Dave S) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:47:58 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Cliche Verre exhibit in San Francisco In-Reply-To: <4DA89ECE.5070605@georgetown.edu> References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net>, <20110403053403.24591.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it>, , <20110404090244.14519.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it>, , <1B7566FC-3A7E-4142-8060-0F0D7E3CF2AD@montana.net> <87CC5B5A-81ED-4CDD-B881-2593919E7CEC@montana.net> <20110406002630.AKT46952@mstore-prod-2.pdc.uis.georgetown.edu> <4D9C771D.7070500@intaglioeditions.com> <4DA89ECE.5070605@georgetown.edu> Message-ID: <003101cbfba6$05e5a4b0$11b0ee10$@dsoemarko.us> Suzanne, They look very nice! And congratulations! I still remember many of the images you showed in the traveling portfolio. A couple that I particularly remember are from glass negative with paste rolled with brayer. They were printed with cyanotype but look very 3-dimensional. Dave S -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Suzanne Izzo Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 3:39 PM To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Cliche Verre exhibit in San Francisco I wrote a couple weeks ago about a cliche verre exhibit in San Francisco that included some of my work. My daughter and I attended the opening. The exhibit is in a very nice gallery right on Sutter Street in downtown San Francisco. I was very happy to meet Jack Fulton (a long-time member of the list) who came with a number of his students. Three other participating artists were there: Courtney Johnson (the curator), Fred Parker (from nearby Sonoma), and Frank Rossi (all the way from Germany). I would have liked to have met Francis Schanberger's friend, Fredrik Marsh, as the descriptive titles he gave his work were quite intriguing. Several of you asked about seeing some of the work. I don't have a web page, but the gallery site now has pictures of the exhibition as well as pictures of all the individual works. In the installation pictures, my pictures are the six small ones hung together on one wall. The address for the exhibition pictures is: http://www.jenkinsjohnsongallery.com/exhibitions/11cliche_verre/11clicheverr e_main.html (Sorry--I hoped this would copy as clickable, but apparently not.) While in the Bay Area, I managed to visit 4 art museums. The only photography shows were at the SFMOMA: "Helios: Eadweard Muybridge in a Time of Change" which included a small room with photographs by some of his contemporaries and "Exposed: Voyeurism, Surveillance, and the Camera Since 1870". Suzanne Izzo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From donsbryant at gmail.com Fri Apr 15 23:33:57 2011 From: donsbryant at gmail.com (Don Bryant) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 19:33:57 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Ammonium Caseinate vs. Sodium Caseinate In-Reply-To: <003101cbfba6$05e5a4b0$11b0ee10$@dsoemarko.us> References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net>, <20110403053403.24591.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it>, , <20110404090244.14519.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it>, , <1B7566FC-3A7E-4142-8060-0F0D7E3CF2AD@montana.net> <87CC5B5A-81ED-4CDD-B881-2593919E7CEC@montana.net> <20110406002630.AKT46952@mstore-prod-2.pdc.uis.georgetown.edu> <4D9C771D.7070500@intaglioeditions.com><4DA89ECE.5070605@georgetown.edu> <003101cbfba6$05e5a4b0$11b0ee10$@dsoemarko.us> Message-ID: <44F74BEB2E3B49C299A5D8CB170F7FD8@TravlinHP> Hello Everyone, I've been quietly reading along through the exchange of e-mails trying to deduce what is required to make my own casein prints. So far I've made my first batch of ammonium caseinate (about 1 liter of liquid am. Caseinate preserved with thymol) using E.J. Theisen's instructions published on the internet. The liquid is about 48 hours old and still has a strong ammonia odor since it is stored in a capped Mason/Atlas canning jar. I assume one of the reasons (or maybe the primary reason) that Am. Cas. is so much faster than gum is because of the ammonia. As I recall, the treatment of gum emulsions to ammonia fumes or ad-ins caused a big speed jump for the gum coating. I've never tried this but I assume it has been documented as being true. Didn't David Scopic, Judy Siegel and perhaps others verify this? Tonight I will make another batch of casein and let it dry to produce a quantity of dry powder with thymol used as a preservative. Also, this weekend, I will attempt to make my own sodium caseinate using the formula published earlier by Alberto. My first test will be using E.J. Theisen's working formula using DS Grey Graphite printed on pre-shrunk Lenox sized with Gamblin PVA, 1:1 and pre-shrunk FAEW gelatin sized and hardened with glut. If I can find the pig. in my stash I may also try some Venetian/Indian Red. The tests will be made with a step wedge and in camera negative. Once I have a feel for the materials/process I will derive my tri-color curves (assuming all goes successfully). Now having stated all of that Chris made the following post RE: Sodium Caseinate: > 1.14.81 Wrote this to Ross, Sam, Albert 10g sod casein pdr 150cc water 60 drops glycerol 4 drops photoflo 12 drops 50% thymol then 2.3.81 mixed 15g in 150cc printed this 1.5-3mn > Does anyone understand what is indicated by the ratio or entry ... 'then 2.3.81 mixed 15g in 150cc' ? I get part of that but not the 2.3.81. Is that a ratio or a date? Thanks, Don Bryant From zphoto at montana.net Fri Apr 15 19:54:47 2011 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 13:54:47 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] mark morrisroe gum prints Message-ID: <82F19272-D40D-4751-A7C2-42CDEEBFE19C@montana.net> Has anyone gotten a chance to check out the Mark Morrisroe exhibit at Artist Space NY? What intrigues me is in the lengthy article on Morrisroe in Art in America's March 2011 issue, they mention 60 of his 2000 photographs are of "cyanotype and gum prints." The exhibit runs til May 1. Here is a link to a couple of them: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/photobooth/2011/03/mark-morrisroe.html Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com From zphoto at montana.net Sat Apr 16 02:07:54 2011 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 20:07:54 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Ammonium Caseinate vs. Sodium Caseinate In-Reply-To: <44F74BEB2E3B49C299A5D8CB170F7FD8@TravlinHP> References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net>, <20110403053403.24591.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it>, , <20110404090244.14519.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it>, , <1B7566FC-3A7E-4142-8060-0F0D7E3CF2AD@montana.net> <87CC5B5A-81ED-4CDD-B881-2593919E7CEC@montana.net> <20110406002630.AKT46952@mstore-prod-2.pdc.uis.georgetown.edu> <4D9C771D.7070500@intaglioeditions.com><4DA89ECE.5070605@georgetown.edu> <003101cbfba6$05e5a4b0$11b0ee10$@dsoemarko.us> <44F74BEB2E3B49C299A5D8CB170F7FD8@TravlinHP> Message-ID: Don Can't wait until you test casein. Let us know your a) speed and b) whether you find it shorter in scale than gum. 1.14.81 is the date. Enos died in 83, so hence the 80s date. He dated every recipe and experiment... From what I remember, ammonia was used in gum printing to slow down the process, not speed it up in what I have read (lemon juice added speed which I think was just what Marek said in that it is a dichromate reducer or whatever the term was). I think casein is faster for different reasons, not least of which is the thinness of the layer In fact, in some recipes as long as a dichromated colloid is full of ammonia and stlll in liquid state it is hardly sensitive but once it is coated on paper, the ammonia evaporates, it becomes sensitive. Or so I've read. This was also the basis of Kwik Print and perhaps the Selectacolor presensitized liquid coating. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Apr 15, 2011, at 5:33 PM, Don Bryant wrote: > Hello Everyone, > > I've been quietly reading along through the exchange of e-mails trying to > deduce what is required to make my own casein prints. > > So far I've made my first batch of ammonium caseinate (about 1 liter of > liquid am. Caseinate preserved with thymol) using E.J. Theisen's > instructions published on the internet. The liquid is about 48 hours old and > still has a strong ammonia odor since it is stored in a capped Mason/Atlas > canning jar. I assume one of the reasons (or maybe the primary reason) that > Am. Cas. is so much faster than gum is because of the ammonia. As I recall, > the treatment of gum emulsions to ammonia fumes or ad-ins caused a big speed > jump for the gum coating. I've never tried this but I assume it has been > documented as being true. Didn't David Scopic, Judy Siegel and perhaps > others verify this? > > Tonight I will make another batch of casein and let it dry to produce a > quantity of dry powder with thymol used as a preservative. > > Also, this weekend, I will attempt to make my own sodium caseinate using the > formula published earlier by Alberto. > > My first test will be using E.J. Theisen's working formula using DS Grey > Graphite printed on pre-shrunk Lenox sized with Gamblin PVA, 1:1 and > pre-shrunk FAEW gelatin sized and hardened with glut. If I can find the pig. > in my stash I may also try some Venetian/Indian Red. > > The tests will be made with a step wedge and in camera negative. Once I have > a feel for the materials/process I will derive my tri-color curves (assuming > all goes successfully). > > Now having stated all of that Chris made the following post RE: Sodium > Caseinate: > > >> > 1.14.81 Wrote this to Ross, Sam, Albert > 10g sod casein pdr > 150cc water > 60 drops glycerol > 4 drops photoflo > 12 drops 50% thymol > then 2.3.81 mixed 15g in 150cc > printed this 1.5-3mn >> > > Does anyone understand what is indicated by the ratio or entry ... 'then > 2.3.81 mixed 15g in 150cc' ? > > I get part of that but not the 2.3.81. Is that a ratio or a date? > > Thanks, > > Don Bryant > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca Sat Apr 16 16:29:18 2011 From: pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca (Peter Friedrichsen) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 12:29:18 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Ammonium Caseinate vs. Sodium Caseinate In-Reply-To: <44F74BEB2E3B49C299A5D8CB170F7FD8@TravlinHP> References: <011DDFFA-704E-4E7A-A207-CAC9E9337E3E@montana.net> <20110403053403.24591.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> <20110404090244.14519.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <1B7566FC-3A7E-4142-8060-0F0D7E3CF2AD@montana.net> <87CC5B5A-81ED-4CDD-B881-2593919E7CEC@montana.net> <20110406002630.AKT46952@mstore-prod-2.pdc.uis.georgetown.edu> <4D9C771D.7070500@intaglioeditions.com> <4DA89ECE.5070605@georgetown.edu> <003101cbfba6$05e5a4b0$11b0ee10$@dsoemarko.us> <44F74BEB2E3B49C299A5D8CB170F7FD8@TravlinHP> Message-ID: While the ammonium caseinate exposes faster than gum, so does sodium caseinate; there must be another mechanism at work. I do admit that I have not compared the ammonium vs sodium, but only in reference to gum's exposure time and it is always less as you already know. Peter Friedrichsen At 07:33 PM 04/15/2011, you wrote: >Hello Everyone, > >I've been quietly reading along through the exchange of e-mails trying to >deduce what is required to make my own casein prints. > >So far I've made my first batch of ammonium caseinate (about 1 liter of >liquid am. Caseinate preserved with thymol) using E.J. Theisen's >instructions published on the internet. The liquid is about 48 hours old and >still has a strong ammonia odor since it is stored in a capped Mason/Atlas >canning jar. I assume one of the reasons (or maybe the primary reason) that >Am. Cas. is so much faster than gum is because of the ammonia. As I recall, >the treatment of gum emulsions to ammonia fumes or ad-ins caused a big speed >jump for the gum coating. I've never tried this but I assume it has been >documented as being true. Didn't David Scopic, Judy Siegel and perhaps >others verify this? > >Tonight I will make another batch of casein and let it dry to produce a >quantity of dry powder with thymol used as a preservative. > >Also, this weekend, I will attempt to make my own sodium caseinate using the >formula published earlier by Alberto. > >My first test will be using E.J. Theisen's working formula using DS Grey >Graphite printed on pre-shrunk Lenox sized with Gamblin PVA, 1:1 and >pre-shrunk FAEW gelatin sized and hardened with glut. If I can find the pig. >in my stash I may also try some Venetian/Indian Red. > >The tests will be made with a step wedge and in camera negative. Once I have >a feel for the materials/process I will derive my tri-color curves (assuming >all goes successfully). > >Now having stated all of that Chris made the following post RE: Sodium >Caseinate: > > > > >1.14.81 Wrote this to Ross, Sam, Albert >10g sod casein pdr >150cc water >60 drops glycerol >4 drops photoflo >12 drops 50% thymol >then 2.3.81 mixed 15g in 150cc >printed this 1.5-3mn > > > >Does anyone understand what is indicated by the ratio or entry ... 'then >2.3.81 mixed 15g in 150cc' ? > >I get part of that but not the 2.3.81. Is that a ratio or a date? > >Thanks, > >Don Bryant > > >_______________________________________________ >Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Sat Apr 16 17:03:46 2011 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 11:03:46 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] casein patent FYI, loooong post Message-ID: So, maybe this will answer some questions for everyone. The entire patent, typed out. This is, of course, not the first patent on casein printing, but there are a lot of deductions that can be drawn from this patent so have fun. Chris United States Patent Office 2,716,061 Patented Aug. 23, 1955 CASEIN CONTACT PRINTING EMULSION John M. Lupo, Jr., Application December 18, 1952, Serial No. 326,777 This invention relates to a pigmented contact printing emulsion which is particularly adapted for use in reproducing multi-colored photographic images on flexible supports and especially vinyl plastic sheets. As is known, multi-colored photographic images can be reproduced on flexible supports by coating the support with a light sensitive coating composition (usually containing a dichromate) which is dried and then subjected to light filtered through a negative. The light sensitive coating becomes hardened where it is exposed to light and the unhardened parts are then dissolved away leaving a positive of the negative. For multicolored images a cycle of two, three, four or more coating compositions, each of which contains a pigment corresponding to one or more of the primary colors, are surprinted on the support. With this type of coating composition, considerable difficulty has been experienced in reproducing half tones of the image and in getting the exposed portions of the composition to cling to the support. If excess pigment is used, or if a thick coating such as that employed for photographic relief images is applied to the support, hardening of the composition on exposure to light does not go right through to the support. As a result, the hardened portions wash off in development or rub off in use. On the other hand, when very small amounts of pigment are used, the image has a characteristic yellowish gray cast of hardened dichromate and its color is commercially unsatisfactory. An added problem occurs with vinyl plastic supports in that the plastic has a hydrophobic surface and it is virtually impossible to make the known water base coating compositions adhere to its surface. In accordance with the present invention, these problems have been overcome and there has been produced an entirely satisfactory form of coating composition which tenaciously clings to flexible supports, especially vinyl plastic supports,' and which faithfully reproduces the more delicate half-tones of the image. To this end, in my invention I provide a coating composition containing water, casein, a light sensitive water-soluble dichromate, preferably ammonium dichromate, an alkali such as ammonium hydroxide, and pigment. In preparing my coating composition, I first make up a water dispersion of casein. The casein dispersion may be made by conventional means. One way in which the casein dispersion can be made is to take 1 part of casein, add 5 parts of water, and soak for approximately one-half hour. Then alkali is added, preferably ammonium hydroxide, to adjust the pH of the mixture to a value above 7. Add additional water to adjust solid content of the mixture to about 7-9% by weight of casein and then agitate and heat the mixture to a temperature of about 140? to 160? F and hold at that temperature for about 45 minutes. The temperature of the casein dispersion should not exceed 200?F, because casein starts to decompose at that temperature. Water dispersions of casein are subject to microbial attack, and if the light sensitive coating composition is to be stored for any period of time, a preservative such as formaldehyde, or one of the proprietary preservatives now on the market?should be added in concentrations of about 0.5 to 1.0% based on the dry weight of the casein. Since the hardness of the exposed coating composition and its ability to adhere to the support depends in part upon the type of casein used, I prefer to use either an acid or rennet type of casein. I have achieved excellent results with a rennet-type casein sold by the Borden Company under the name Protovac 401 and with an acid type casein sold by Hercules Powder Company under the name Paracase No.7. Paracase No. 7. Paracase No. 7 is an acid metallic caseinate. If an ordinary acid type casein is used, then one or more suitable hardeners, such as the water soluble salts of aluminum, chromium, or zinc, should be added to the casein in order to form a metallic caseinate which will give the required degree of hardness in the exposed portions of the coating on the support. In general, I use a metallic caseinate containing about 11? to 13 % of water soluble salt based upon the dry weight of casein in solution. The term "acid metallic caseinate" is intended to mean those caseins which are precipitated from solution with an inorganic acid during manufacture and reacted with one or more of the above mentioned water-soluble salts to form a metallic caseinate. Although any suitable alkali and water soluble dichromate, such as ammonium, potassium and sodium dichromate, may be used, I prefer to use ammonium dichromate and ammonium hydroxide. The dichromate, alkali and pigment may be added separately to the casein dispersion, but I prefer to make up an aqueous solution of the dichromate and then add it to the casein dispersion. The pH of the dichromate solution should be on the alkaline side. Preferably the pH should be about 8.5. The pigment should be one which will readily disperse in water or one which can be made to disperse in water with the addition of suitable commercial dispersing agents. For best results, the pigment should also have good alkali resistance and it should not "bleed" in water. Finally, the particles of pigment should be in finely divided form and this can be readily achieved by grinding the pigment in water with standard pulverizing equipment such as a three-roller mill, colloid mills, etc., as is known in the art. The term "finely divided particles of pigment" is intended to mean a pigment having a particle size of less than approximately .0001 mm in mean diameter. Such a product is readily available on the open market as a 20% dry pigment water dispersion, and I have achieved excellent results with the products made by Imperial Paper & Color Corporation. Examples of such products are: Horicon yellow dispersion X-2439 Toluidine red disperesion X-2437 Monarch blue dispersion X-2446 Jet black dispersion X-2472 Malta red dispersion X-2355 After the dichromate and pigment have been mixed into the casein water dispersion, the pH of the mixture is adjusted with alkali to a value from approximately 8.5 to 10.5. If the pH is substantially below 8.5 the composition is sensitive to ordinary daylight and it cannot be stored for any period of time, and if the pH is above 10.5 the exposure time of the coating composition is increased, due to residual ammonia in the coating after it is dried on the support. Finally, the entire mixture is subjected to a milling operation carried out at high velocity to disperse the solids and establish intimate contact between the casein and pigment. This is an important step in my process because the solid pigment particles and dichromate cannot be made to diffuse and become uniformly mixed through the casein colloid with ordinary hand milling or paddle type agitation, and if the coating composition contains agglomerates of pigment it will not adhere to the support where such agglomerates occur. I have achieved the required dispersion of pigment and dichromate by passing the composition through a micropulverizer as described in my copending United States patent application Serial No. 172,401, filed on July 7, 1950. However, other types of high velocity colloid mills are well known for fine grinding and mixing and such a mill may be employed provided it will mix the ingredients and produce a particle of the size produced with the micropulverizer of my copending application wherein the mixture in the chamber of the mill is rotated and hurled at high velocity and by centrifugal force against a milling surface until the solid particles in the mixture are ground fine enough to pass through slots positioned in a plate at the outlet of the mill. The slots in the plate in a satisfactory construction are about 0.01 inch wide. Because of the slope of the slots and the direction of rotation of the particles the size of particles coming from the outlet of the mill must be something less than 0.01 inch in shortest dimension. The term high velocity as used herein is intended to mean milling operations in which the impeller of the mill is driven at a velocity of the order of 14,000 R. P. M. or more. For best results the casein emulsion is repassed through the colloid mill for a total of two or three times to insure uniform distribution of the ingredients in relation to each other throughout the emulsion. I believe that when this milling operation is done the casein coats the pigment particles and holds them dispersed as discrete particles. For best results I prefer to use a coating composition having the following approximate proportions of ingredients. In the examples the proportions are given as percentage by weight. Ingredients: Percent by weight Casein 6.0 to 8.0 Water 82.0 to 91.8 Dichromate 2-.0 to 4.0 Pigment- (dry weight) 0.2 to 6.0 Specific gravity 1.020 to 1:045 pH 8.5 to 10.5 I have found it highly important to keep the specific gravity and the amount of pigment in the coating come position within the specified limits in order to? faithfully reproduce half-tones and achieve the proper bond with the support. Otherwise, the proportions of ingredients may? be varied by plus or minus 50% depending upon the intended use for the composition. The specific gravity of the composition can be readily adjusted by changing the proportion of water and casein provided the amount of pigment is kept within the specified range. Adherence to the support depends primarily upon the penetration of light which should reach through to the molecules of the coating on the surface of the support. If the amount of pigment exceeds the top limit specified, it will interfere with transmission of light and the exposed portions of the coating will not then give the desired adhesion, and any increase of dichromate will not help to give a better bond. If the amount of pigment is below the amount specified, the image has a yellowish-gray cast of the exposed dichromate, and reproduction of . halftones and color is poor. Within the range of pigment specified, the specified amount of dichromate is highly effective for converting the exposed portions of the coating into insoluble form. Further, the amount of pigment used in the mixture is readily held in suspension by the casein dispersion. Although my coating composition is particularly adapted for use with sheeted plastic material especially vinyl plastic sheets, it will be understood that I do not intend to limit my invention to such plastic materials and I have used my coating composition on such supports as paper, chipboard, tracing cloth, glass, Plexiglas and dinoglass. If desired the support may be given a grained surface which tends to incrase the bond, but this is not essential, and my coating composition gives a good bond with supports having a smooth surface. I have had particularly good results with the following composition on vinyl pastic sheets, Plexiglas, glass, Lucite and dinoglass. Ingredients: Per cent by weight Rennet casein 7.6 Water 87.5 Ammonium dichromate 3.4 Pigment (dry weight) 1.5 Specific gravity 1.030 pH 9.0 Substantially the same results were achieved by substituting an acid metallic caseinate for the rennet casein and by substituting either sodium or potassium dichromate for the ammonium dichromate in the specified proportions. A preferred method for using my coating composition is illustrated in the following example. It will, however, be understood that this example is only by way of illustration and it is not intended to impose any limitations upon the way in which my composition may be used. A vinyl plastic sheet is cleaned with a dilute ammonia solution containing approximately 1 ounce of 28% ammonia in 1 gallon of water. The sheet is placed in a conventional whirler and rotated at a speed of approximately 65 to 75 RPM. A thin coating of my casein coating composition for vinyl plastic sheets is then applied by pouring the composition on the sheet. After the sheet is coated, it is whirled for about 10 minutes to dry the coating. During the drying operation, alkali is evaporated and this reduces the pH of the coating composition so that it is sensitive to actinic rays of light .. The sheet is then placed in a vacuum frame and exposed to the light of a carbon arc lamp filtered through a negative of the image. The light reduces the chromate. to an insoluble complex chromate ion which in turn converts the casein into a water-insoluble form. In general, the coating is exposed for about 5 minutes. The sheet is then developed by placing it in a weak ammonia solution (approximately 1 ounce of 28% ammonia to 1 gallon of water) to wash off the unexposed portions of the coating, leaving a positive of the negative or a negative when the original image is in the form of a positive mask. This development of the coating takes about 2 minutes. If the image is to be multicolored, the same procedure is repeated until all the necessary colors have been surprinted on the support. If desired my coating composition may be applied to the support in a thin coat by spraying it on. However I prefer to use a whirler which insures that each layer will have uniform thickness. The resulting hardened image is insoluble in water. And it has excellent resistance to acids and alkali. The image will not rub off in use and in fact the only satisfactory way to remove it is to scrape it off with sharp abrasives. Reproduction of half-tones is exceptionally good, so that my reproductions may be used for "proving" in Iithographic printing operations; The great convenience of my composition is that the plastic proving plates may be processed in about 20 minutes per color, whereas the ordinary metal proving plates require expensive equipment and up to 3 to 5 hours per color. Multicolor images made with my coating composition on vinyl plastic sheets have exceptionally good dimensional stability and are particularly good for proving in the mapmaking field. In this connection, it will be noted that for some purposes it is desirable to reverse the field of color. In such case the coating composition is exposed to light filtered through a positive print of the image which gives a negative of the positive. In some special cases my coating composition, because of its ability to adhere to smooth surfaces, may be used to advantage on metal plates, for example, in lithographic printing operations. In such case, the composition is used without pigment and upon exposure to actinic rays of light it provides a hard, glossy surface coating which is easily wet with ink. I prefer to use a coating composition having the following proportion of ingredients for metal plates: Ingredients: Percent by weight Casein 3.9 Water 79.0 Dichromate 10.5 Ammonium hydroxide 6.6 Specific gravity 1.01-1.04 pH 8.4-9.8 It is to be noted that this composition is prepared as described above for my pigmented coating composition except that the final milling operation is not required. Further, it will be understood that it is intended to cover all changes and modifications of the preferred form of my invention herein chosen for the purpose of illustration which do not constitute departures from the spirit and scope of my invention. What I claim is: 1. The method of preparing a contact printing emulsion adapted to be retained on plastic and glass surfaces which comprises the steps of dispersing a casein selected from the group consisting of rennet and acid metallic caseinates in an alkaline aqueous medium having a pH above 7, adding solid pigment particles and a water soluble light sensitive dichromate to the casein water dispersion, the pigment being added in amount sufficient to bring the pigment content of the resulting mixture within the range of about 0.2% to 6.0% by weight of the mixture and the dichromate being added in amount sufficient to bring the dichromate content of the resulting mixture within the range of about 2.0% to 4.0% by weight of mixture, adding alkali to bring the pH of the mixture within the range of about 8.5 to 10.5, adjusting the water and casein content of the mixture to bring the specific gravity of the final mixture within the range of about 1.020 to 1.045, and then delivering the final mixture into the chamber of a colloid mill, rotating the mixture in such chamber at a velocity of about at least 14,000 RPM to grind the solid particles and uniformly disperse the ingredients throughout the mixture and continuing such grinding and dispersing operation for a given particle of solid until the particle is reduced in size to give a mixture with particles the shortest dimension of which is less than 0.01 inch and to emulsify and uniformly disperse the ingredients in relation to each other throughout the resulting casein emulsion whereby the emulsion upon exposure to light will adhere to a flexible sheet, such as a vinyl plastic sheet, in a substantially continuous film even after repeated flexing of the sheet, and whereby the half-tone colors of an image may be faithfully reproduced by applying and exposing successive coatings of the casein emulsion containing different primary pigment colors. 2. The contact printing emulsion produced by the process of claim 1. References cited in the file of this patent UNITED STATES PATENTS 2,598,189 Mullen _______________ May 27, 1952 2,677,611 Gregory et a!. ___________ May 4, 1954 FOREIGN PATENTS 12,867 Great Britain __________ Feb. 8, 1906 of 1905 4,043 Great Britain _______________ of 1912 573,771 Great Britain ____________ Dec. 5, 1945 OTHER REFERENCES Clerc, Technique des Procedes Photomechaniques, Tome I (1947), Etablissements Bouzard-Calmels, Paris, page 359. Austin, The National Lithographer, vol 48, October 1941, page 26. Hackh's Chemical Dictionary (3rd ed.). Publ. by The Blakiston Co., Philadelphia (1950), page 173. Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com From dickburk at ix.netcom.com Sat Apr 16 18:27:13 2011 From: dickburk at ix.netcom.com (Richard Knoppow) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 11:27:13 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein patent FYI, loooong post References: Message-ID: <8F8E281128DB40C7BC529693ECABA59A@VALUED20606295> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christina Anderson" To: "Alt List" Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 10:03 AM Subject: [alt-photo] casein patent FYI, loooong post So, maybe this will answer some questions for everyone. The entire patent, typed out. This is, of course, not the first patent on casein printing, but there are a lot of deductions that can be drawn from this patent so have fun. Chris United States Patent Office 2,716,061 Patented Aug. 23, 1955 Christina and all, US patents are available via the web from two sources, one is the United States Patent and Trademark Office at http://www.uspto.gov the other, and better source in some ways is Google Patents. On the Google web site click on "more" and then "even more" and you will see the link to the patent site. The advantage of Google is that it allows full text searches of _all US patents ever issued_ where the USPTO site allows searching only for patents issued from 1976. Also, the Google site will allow you to download a PDF rather than the FAX TIFF files from USPTO. The Google site uses some sort of print recognition scheme to search so it sometimes comes up with very strange things, also one must be skillful in searching because it often skips patents if the search criteria are not quite right. Nonetheless it is a very powerful engine for those interested in patents and technological history. Another caviet; patents are _legal_ documents, not technical or scientific papers. Often they obscure as much as they reveal plus the "patentese" they are written in can be frustrating and occasionally laughable. Also, the fact that something is patented doesn't mean it works. Lots of patents have been issued that should not have been. -- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles, CA, USA dickburk at ix.netcom.com From alt.list at albertonovo.it Sat Apr 16 20:38:42 2011 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Sat, 16 Apr 2011 22:38:42 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein patent FYI, loooong post In-Reply-To: <8F8E281128DB40C7BC529693ECABA59A@VALUED20606295> References: <8F8E281128DB40C7BC529693ECABA59A@VALUED20606295> Message-ID: <20110416203842.14108.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> Richard, > Christina and all, US patents are available via the web from two > sources, one is the United States Patent and Trademark Office at > http://www.uspto.gov the other, and better source in some ways is Google > Patents. The third way is through the European Patent Office (Espacenet). I have found very useful the simplified Advanced Search page of the British site: http://gb.espacenet.com/search97cgi/s97_cgi.exe?Action=FormGen&Template=gb/e n/advanced.hts (text of the link all in a line). In particular, look to the IMPADOC family of a patent to discover all his international history. You can download the patenss in pdf format. Alberto www.grupponamias.com www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group From earlj at comcast.net Sun Apr 17 02:11:46 2011 From: earlj at comcast.net (Earl and Patty Johnson) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 02:11:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein patent FYI, loooong post In-Reply-To: <813080704.3805064.1303006219919.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <1470332197.3805100.1303006306958.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> I have been reading the casien printing posts with interest, even though I am not a casein nor a gum printer. My experience with dichromated colloids is entirely within the carbon transfer process, and that only with monochrome. The problems posed in the John Lupo patent lead me to wonder if it might be possible to do casein printing as a transfer process a la carbon. But then the first thought that comes to mind, is why would you want to? If you already know how to do carbon, is there any benefit in trying it with casein? I suspect that gummists might not be willing to subject themselves to the chinese water torture that the multiple variables of carbon present . . . Earl Johnson ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christina Anderson" To: "Alt List" Sent: Saturday, April 16, 2011 12:03:46 PM Subject: [alt-photo] casein patent FYI, loooong post So, maybe this will answer some questions for everyone. The entire patent, typed out. This is, of course, not the first patent on casein printing, but there are a lot of deductions that can be drawn from this patent so have fun. Chris United States Patent Office 2,716,061 Patented Aug. 23, 1955 CASEIN CONTACT PRINTING EMULSION John M. Lupo, Jr., Application December 18, 1952, Serial No. 326,777 This invention relates to a pigmented contact printing emulsion which is particularly adapted for use in reproducing multi-colored photographic images on flexible supports and especially vinyl plastic sheets. As is known, multi-colored photographic images can be reproduced on flexible supports by coating the support with a light sensitive coating composition (usually containing a dichromate) which is dried and then subjected to light filtered through a negative. The light sensitive coating becomes hardened where it is exposed to light and the unhardened parts are then dissolved away leaving a positive of the negative. For multicolored images a cycle of two, three, four or more coating compositions, each of which contains a pigment corresponding to one or more of the primary colors, are surprinted on the support. With this type of coating composition, considerable difficulty has been experienced in reproducing half tones of the image and in getting the exposed portions of the composition to cling to the support. If excess pigment is used, or if a thick coating such as that employed for photographic relief images is applied to the support, hardening of the composition on exposure to light does not go right through to the support. As a result, the hardened portions wash off in development or rub off in use. On the other hand, when very small amounts of pigment are used, the image has a characteristic yellowish gray cast of hardened dichromate and its color is commercially unsatisfactory. An added problem occurs with vinyl plastic supports in that the plastic has a hydrophobic surface and it is virtually impossible to make the known water base coating compositions adhere to its surface. In accordance with the present invention, these problems have been overcome and there has been produced an entirely satisfactory form of coating composition which tenaciously clings to flexible supports, especially vinyl plastic supports,' and which faithfully reproduces the more delicate half-tones of the image. To this end, in my invention I provide a coating composition containing water, casein, a light sensitive water-soluble dichromate, preferably ammonium dichromate, an alkali such as ammonium hydroxide, and pigment. In preparing my coating composition, I first make up a water dispersion of casein. The casein dispersion may be made by conventional means. One way in which the casein dispersion can be made is to take 1 part of casein, add 5 parts of water, and soak for approximately one-half hour. Then alkali is added, preferably ammonium hydroxide, to adjust the pH of the mixture to a value above 7. Add additional water to adjust solid content of the mixture to about 7-9% by weight of casein and then agitate and heat the mixture to a temperature of about 140? to 160? F and hold at that temperature for about 45 minutes. The temperature of the casein dispersion should not exceed 200?F, because casein starts to decompose at that temperature. Water dispersions of casein are subject to microbial attack, and if the light sensitive coating composition is to be stored for any period of time, a preservative such as formaldehyde, or one of the proprietary preservatives now on the market?should be added in concentrations of about 0.5 to 1.0% based on the dry weight of the casein. Since the hardness of the exposed coating composition and its ability to adhere to the support depends in part upon the type of casein used, I prefer to use either an acid or rennet type of casein. I have achieved excellent results with a rennet-type casein sold by the Borden Company under the name Protovac 401 and with an acid type casein sold by Hercules Powder Company under the name Paracase No.7. Paracase No. 7. Paracase No. 7 is an acid metallic caseinate. If an ordinary acid type casein is used, then one or more suitable hardeners, such as the water soluble salts of aluminum, chromium, or zinc, should be added to the casein in order to form a metallic caseinate which will give the required degree of hardness in the exposed portions of the coating on the support. In general, I use a metallic caseinate containing about 11? to 13 % of water soluble salt based upon the dry weight of casein in solution. The term "acid metallic caseinate" is intended to mean those caseins which are precipitated from solution with an inorganic acid during manufacture and reacted with one or more of the above mentioned water-soluble salts to form a metallic caseinate. Although any suitable alkali and water soluble dichromate, such as ammonium, potassium and sodium dichromate, may be used, I prefer to use ammonium dichromate and ammonium hydroxide. The dichromate, alkali and pigment may be added separately to the casein dispersion, but I prefer to make up an aqueous solution of the dichromate and then add it to the casein dispersion. The pH of the dichromate solution should be on the alkaline side. Preferably the pH should be about 8.5. The pigment should be one which will readily disperse in water or one which can be made to disperse in water with the addition of suitable commercial dispersing agents. For best results, the pigment should also have good alkali resistance and it should not "bleed" in water. Finally, the particles of pigment should be in finely divided form and this can be readily achieved by grinding the pigment in water with standard pulverizing equipment such as a three-roller mill, colloid mills, etc., as is known in the art. The term "finely divided particles of pigment" is intended to mean a pigment having a particle size of less than approximately .0001 mm in mean diameter. Such a product is readily available on the open market as a 20% dry pigment water dispersion, and I have achieved excellent results with the products made by Imperial Paper & Color Corporation. Examples of such products are: Horicon yellow dispersion X-2439 Toluidine red disperesion X-2437 Monarch blue dispersion X-2446 Jet black dispersion X-2472 Malta red dispersion X-2355 After the dichromate and pigment have been mixed into the casein water dispersion, the pH of the mixture is adjusted with alkali to a value from approximately 8.5 to 10.5. If the pH is substantially below 8.5 the composition is sensitive to ordinary daylight and it cannot be stored for any period of time, and if the pH is above 10.5 the exposure time of the coating composition is increased, due to residual ammonia in the coating after it is dried on the support. Finally, the entire mixture is subjected to a milling operation carried out at high velocity to disperse the solids and establish intimate contact between the casein and pigment. This is an important step in my process because the solid pigment particles and dichromate cannot be made to diffuse and become uniformly mixed through the casein colloid with ordinary hand milling or paddle type agitation, and if the coating composition contains agglomerates of pigment it will not adhere to the support where such agglomerates occur. I have achieved the required dispersion of pigment and dichromate by passing the composition through a micropulverizer as described in my copending United States patent application Serial No. 172,401, filed on July 7, 1950. However, other types of high velocity colloid mills are well known for fine grinding and mixing and such a mill may be employed provided it will mix the ingredients and produce a particle of the size produced with the micropulverizer of my copending application wherein the mixture in the chamber of the mill is rotated and hurled at high velocity and by centrifugal force against a milling surface until the solid particles in the mixture are ground fine enough to pass through slots positioned in a plate at the outlet of the mill. The slots in the plate in a satisfactory construction are about 0.01 inch wide. Because of the slope of the slots and the direction of rotation of the particles the size of particles coming from the outlet of the mill must be something less than 0.01 inch in shortest dimension. The term high velocity as used herein is intended to mean milling operations in which the impeller of the mill is driven at a velocity of the order of 14,000 R. P. M. or more. For best results the casein emulsion is repassed through the colloid mill for a total of two or three times to insure uniform distribution of the ingredients in relation to each other throughout the emulsion. I believe that when this milling operation is done the casein coats the pigment particles and holds them dispersed as discrete particles. For best results I prefer to use a coating composition having the following approximate proportions of ingredients. In the examples the proportions are given as percentage by weight. Ingredients: Percent by weight Casein 6.0 to 8.0 Water 82.0 to 91.8 Dichromate 2-.0 to 4.0 Pigment- (dry weight) 0.2 to 6.0 Specific gravity 1.020 to 1:045 pH 8.5 to 10.5 I have found it highly important to keep the specific gravity and the amount of pigment in the coating come position within the specified limits in order to? faithfully reproduce half-tones and achieve the proper bond with the support. Otherwise, the proportions of ingredients may? be varied by plus or minus 50% depending upon the intended use for the composition. The specific gravity of the composition can be readily adjusted by changing the proportion of water and casein provided the amount of pigment is kept within the specified range. Adherence to the support depends primarily upon the penetration of light which should reach through to the molecules of the coating on the surface of the support. If the amount of pigment exceeds the top limit specified, it will interfere with transmission of light and the exposed portions of the coating will not then give the desired adhesion, and any increase of dichromate will not help to give a better bond. If the amount of pigment is below the amount specified, the image has a yellowish-gray cast of the exposed dichromate, and reproduction of . halftones and color is poor. Within the range of pigment specified, the specified amount of dichromate is highly effective for converting the exposed portions of the coating into insoluble form. Further, the amount of pigment used in the mixture is readily held in suspension by the casein dispersion. Although my coating composition is particularly adapted for use with sheeted plastic material especially vinyl plastic sheets, it will be understood that I do not intend to limit my invention to such plastic materials and I have used my coating composition on such supports as paper, chipboard, tracing cloth, glass, Plexiglas and dinoglass. If desired the support may be given a grained surface which tends to incrase the bond, but this is not essential, and my coating composition gives a good bond with supports having a smooth surface. I have had particularly good results with the following composition on vinyl pastic sheets, Plexiglas, glass, Lucite and dinoglass. Ingredients: Per cent by weight Rennet casein 7.6 Water 87.5 Ammonium dichromate 3.4 Pigment (dry weight) 1.5 Specific gravity 1.030 pH 9.0 Substantially the same results were achieved by substituting an acid metallic caseinate for the rennet casein and by substituting either sodium or potassium dichromate for the ammonium dichromate in the specified proportions. A preferred method for using my coating composition is illustrated in the following example. It will, however, be understood that this example is only by way of illustration and it is not intended to impose any limitations upon the way in which my composition may be used. A vinyl plastic sheet is cleaned with a dilute ammonia solution containing approximately 1 ounce of 28% ammonia in 1 gallon of water. The sheet is placed in a conventional whirler and rotated at a speed of approximately 65 to 75 RPM. A thin coating of my casein coating composition for vinyl plastic sheets is then applied by pouring the composition on the sheet. After the sheet is coated, it is whirled for about 10 minutes to dry the coating. During the drying operation, alkali is evaporated and this reduces the pH of the coating composition so that it is sensitive to actinic rays of light .. The sheet is then placed in a vacuum frame and exposed to the light of a carbon arc lamp filtered through a negative of the image. The light reduces the chromate. to an insoluble complex chromate ion which in turn converts the casein into a water-insoluble form. In general, the coating is exposed for about 5 minutes. The sheet is then developed by placing it in a weak ammonia solution (approximately 1 ounce of 28% ammonia to 1 gallon of water) to wash off the unexposed portions of the coating, leaving a positive of the negative or a negative when the original image is in the form of a positive mask. This development of the coating takes about 2 minutes. If the image is to be multicolored, the same procedure is repeated until all the necessary colors have been surprinted on the support. If desired my coating composition may be applied to the support in a thin coat by spraying it on. However I prefer to use a whirler which insures that each layer will have uniform thickness. The resulting hardened image is insoluble in water. And it has excellent resistance to acids and alkali. The image will not rub off in use and in fact the only satisfactory way to remove it is to scrape it off with sharp abrasives. Reproduction of half-tones is exceptionally good, so that my reproductions may be used for "proving" in Iithographic printing operations; The great convenience of my composition is that the plastic proving plates may be processed in about 20 minutes per color, whereas the ordinary metal proving plates require expensive equipment and up to 3 to 5 hours per color. Multicolor images made with my coating composition on vinyl plastic sheets have exceptionally good dimensional stability and are particularly good for proving in the mapmaking field. In this connection, it will be noted that for some purposes it is desirable to reverse the field of color. In such case the coating composition is exposed to light filtered through a positive print of the image which gives a negative of the positive. In some special cases my coating composition, because of its ability to adhere to smooth surfaces, may be used to advantage on metal plates, for example, in lithographic printing operations. In such case, the composition is used without pigment and upon exposure to actinic rays of light it provides a hard, glossy surface coating which is easily wet with ink. I prefer to use a coating composition having the following proportion of ingredients for metal plates: Ingredients: Percent by weight Casein 3.9 Water 79.0 Dichromate 10.5 Ammonium hydroxide 6.6 Specific gravity 1.01-1.04 pH 8.4-9.8 It is to be noted that this composition is prepared as described above for my pigmented coating composition except that the final milling operation is not required. Further, it will be understood that it is intended to cover all changes and modifications of the preferred form of my invention herein chosen for the purpose of illustration which do not constitute departures from the spirit and scope of my invention. What I claim is: 1. The method of preparing a contact printing emulsion adapted to be retained on plastic and glass surfaces which comprises the steps of dispersing a casein selected from the group consisting of rennet and acid metallic caseinates in an alkaline aqueous medium having a pH above 7, adding solid pigment particles and a water soluble light sensitive dichromate to the casein water dispersion, the pigment being added in amount sufficient to bring the pigment content of the resulting mixture within the range of about 0.2% to 6.0% by weight of the mixture and the dichromate being added in amount sufficient to bring the dichromate content of the resulting mixture within the range of about 2.0% to 4.0% by weight of mixture, adding alkali to bring the pH of the mixture within the range of about 8.5 to 10.5, adjusting the water and casein content of the mixture to bring the specific gravity of the final mixture within the range of about 1.020 to 1.045, and then delivering the final mixture into the chamber of a colloid mill, rotating the mixture in such chamber at a velocity of about at least 14,000 RPM to grind the solid particles and uniformly disperse the ingredients throughout the mixture and continuing such grinding and dispersing operation for a given particle of solid until the particle is reduced in size to give a mixture with particles the shortest dimension of which is less than 0.01 inch and to emulsify and uniformly disperse the ingredients in relation to each other throughout the resulting casein emulsion whereby the emulsion upon exposure to light will adhere to a flexible sheet, such as a vinyl plastic sheet, in a substantially continuous film even after repeated flexing of the sheet, and whereby the half-tone colors of an image may be faithfully reproduced by applying and exposing successive coatings of the casein emulsion containing different primary pigment colors. 2. The contact printing emulsion produced by the process of claim 1. References cited in the file of this patent UNITED STATES PATENTS 2,598,189 Mullen _______________ May 27, 1952 2,677,611 Gregory et a!. ___________ May 4, 1954 FOREIGN PATENTS 12,867 Great Britain __________ Feb. 8, 1906 of 1905 4,043 Great Britain _______________ of 1912 573,771 Great Britain ____________ Dec. 5, 1945 OTHER REFERENCES Clerc, Technique des Procedes Photomechaniques, Tome I (1947), Etablissements Bouzard-Calmels, Paris, page 359. Austin, The National Lithographer, vol 48, October 1941, page 26. Hackh's Chemical Dictionary (3rd ed.). Publ. by The Blakiston Co., Philadelphia (1950), page 173. Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Sun Apr 17 09:10:16 2011 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 12:10:16 +0300 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein patent FYI, loooong post In-Reply-To: <1470332197.3805100.1303006306958.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <813080704.3805064.1303006219919.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <1470332197.3805100.1303006306958.JavaMail.root@sz0054a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi Earl, I think what makes carbon work is the swelling properties of gelatin. I don't think hardened casein swells as much as gelatin... (I would say it - almost - doesn't at all!) And believe me, gum/casein can be considered as complex as carbon when it comes to the number and effect of variables. (Not disregarding that carbon is a lot more slow and painstaking in the preparations / operations - at least to me...) Regards, Loris. 2011/4/17 Earl and Patty Johnson : > I have been reading the casien printing posts with interest, even though I am not a casein nor a gum printer. My experience with dichromated > colloids is entirely within the carbon transfer process, and that only with monochrome. The problems posed in the John Lupo patent lead me to > wonder if it might be possible to do casein printing as a transfer process a la carbon. But then the first thought that comes to mind, is why would > you want to? If you already know how to do carbon, is there any benefit in trying it with casein? > > I suspect that gummists might not be willing to subject themselves to the chinese water torture that the multiple variables of carbon present . . . > > Earl Johnson From eyeear at shaw.ca Mon Apr 18 22:12:50 2011 From: eyeear at shaw.ca (Rajul) Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 15:12:50 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] aluminum portfolio Message-ID: <108D74B6-941C-4976-874C-44D3AA4C9496@shaw.ca> Hi Everyone! I have finally put the above on The work is arranged in 6 sets for viewing convenience. Comments/suggestions/questions are welcome. Rajul From shuber1 at telus.net Tue Apr 19 15:29:19 2011 From: shuber1 at telus.net (Susan Huber) Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 08:29:19 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] contents of Rajul's images In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8538D051-F483-49AB-9528-0AB78037B47C@telus.net> Hi Rajul, these images are simply amazing can you explain how you did this????? I love the many series and the innovative way you approached the technical aspects. susan On 2011-04-19, at 5:00 AM, alt-photo-process-list-request at lists.altphotolist.org wrote: > Send Alt-photo-process-list mailing list submissions to > alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo/alt-photo-process-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > alt-photo-process-list-request at lists.altphotolist.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > alt-photo-process-list-owner at lists.altphotolist.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Alt-photo-process-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. aluminum portfolio (Rajul) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 15:12:50 -0700 > From: Rajul > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] aluminum portfolio > Message-ID: <108D74B6-941C-4976-874C-44D3AA4C9496 at shaw.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > Hi Everyone! > > I have finally put the above on eyeearcanada> > > The work is arranged in 6 sets for viewing convenience. > > Comments/suggestions/questions are welcome. > > Rajul > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > End of Alt-photo-process-list Digest, Vol 404, Issue 1 > ****************************************************** Susan Huber www.susanhuber.com From eyeear at shaw.ca Wed Apr 20 17:42:20 2011 From: eyeear at shaw.ca (Rajul) Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 10:42:20 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Rajul's images In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9D020363-149B-4FFE-914D-2A9236F59673@shaw.ca> Thanks Susan for your appreciative comment. The written procedure appears to be a masochist's manna. Committing yourself to a different way of printing has its pains, pleasures, and opportunities for serendipitous observations. If time and output are not a concern, its not only doable, its even fun. I will walk you through it when you are able to stop by for a visit. Rajul On 20-Apr-11, at 5:00 AM, alt-photo-process-list- request at lists.altphotolist.org wrote: > Send Alt-photo-process-list mailing list submissions to > alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo/alt-photo-process-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > alt-photo-process-list-request at lists.altphotolist.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > alt-photo-process-list-owner at lists.altphotolist.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Alt-photo-process-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. contents of Rajul's images (Susan Huber) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 08:29:19 -0700 > From: Susan Huber > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] contents of Rajul's images > Message-ID: <8538D051-F483-49AB-9528-0AB78037B47C at telus.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Hi Rajul, these images are simply amazing can you explain how you > did this????? I love the many series and the innovative way you > approached the technical aspects. susan > On 2011-04-19, at 5:00 AM, alt-photo-process-list- > request at lists.altphotolist.org wrote: > >> Send Alt-photo-process-list mailing list submissions to >> alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo/alt-photo-process- >> list >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> alt-photo-process-list-request at lists.altphotolist.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> alt-photo-process-list-owner at lists.altphotolist.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of Alt-photo-process-list digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. aluminum portfolio (Rajul) >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> - >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Mon, 18 Apr 2011 15:12:50 -0700 >> From: Rajul >> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >> Subject: [alt-photo] aluminum portfolio >> Message-ID: <108D74B6-941C-4976-874C-44D3AA4C9496 at shaw.ca> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed >> >> Hi Everyone! >> >> I have finally put the above on > eyeearcanada> >> >> The work is arranged in 6 sets for viewing convenience. >> >> Comments/suggestions/questions are welcome. >> >> Rajul >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> End of Alt-photo-process-list Digest, Vol 404, Issue 1 >> ****************************************************** > > Susan Huber > www.susanhuber.com > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > End of Alt-photo-process-list Digest, Vol 405, Issue 1 > ****************************************************** From idag at pce.net Fri Apr 22 01:24:11 2011 From: idag at pce.net (Rob McElroy) Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2011 21:24:11 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Daguerreotype workshop May 26-28, 2011 (Announcement) Message-ID: <7DBEF675-23F3-47AB-8B77-1AD6B29D39AD@pce.net> For anyone interested in learning to make their own mercury-developed daguerreotype, I am teaching a three-day workshop at my studio in Buffalo, NY next month. The hands-on workshop will allow each participant to perform all the necessary steps themselves (plate preparation, sensitizing, exposing, developing, gilding, archival sealing and framing), beginning with a bare piece of silver-plated copper, and finishing with their very own framed daguerreotype. Here's a link to a printable version of the workshop announcement containing all the details: http://www.pce.net/idag/Dag_workshop_2011.pdf The workshop is limited to six participants and there are only three spots left. If you would like the workshop details sent directly to your email address in a non-PDF form, or if you would like to be informed about future daguerreotype workshops, please email me directly at the address below. (Please note: your email address will not be shared with anyone else, at anytime, or for any reason.) Daguerreian Regards, Rob McElroy Contemporary daguerreotypist Buffalo, NY idag at pce.net From zphoto at montana.net Fri Apr 22 19:08:57 2011 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 13:08:57 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] casein Message-ID: Dear All, Continuing my casein exploration. Today I went to use my nickel azo yellow stock solution and here is what it looked like: http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=2076 not a problem with thalo and magenta (yet). Interesting. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com From ender100 at aol.com Fri Apr 22 19:12:34 2011 From: ender100 at aol.com (Nelson Mark) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:12:34 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0BD33CE3-B46F-429E-A416-78044836471B@aol.com> Chris, Are you sure you didn't get the bedpan by mistake? hehehehehe Best Wishes, Mark Nelson www.PrecisionDigitalNegatives.com PDNPrint Forum @ Yahoo Groups www.MarkINelsonPhoto.com On Apr 22, 2011, at 2:08 PM, Christina Anderson wrote: > Dear All, > Continuing my casein exploration. Today I went to use my nickel azo yellow stock solution and here is what it looked like: > > http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=2076 > > not a problem with thalo and magenta (yet). > > Interesting. > Chris > > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Fri Apr 22 19:14:39 2011 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 19:14:39 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All, My casein pwoder came a few days ago and I gave it a try. I mixed it with a amonim carbonate solution, It mixed very well with just a spoon, no mixers. It has been sitting on the counter for 2 days, actually today is a third day and I have not noticed any viscosity changes. It looks exactly as I have mixed it fresh. My first attempt in printing was a disaster. I have not made anything that bad in a long time. Looking at it I think I overloaded it with black pigment. It looked so dark and beautiful when brushing. Unfortunatly it mostly flaked out leaving a horrible stain and traces of the image. I am going to try with watercolour pigments and a lower load, perhaps similar to gum Not discourage just curious. Marek From zphoto at montana.net Fri Apr 22 19:23:02 2011 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 13:23:02 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95920042-D45F-4E61-A4A0-31D2BEE7DCB4@montana.net> Marek, I will scan my very first set of casein prints and put them in the same URL location shortly and you will see there is hope between those first prints and the ones I have in the Past Lives on my website. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Apr 22, 2011, at 1:14 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > > > > > All, > My casein pwoder came a few days ago and I gave it a try. I mixed it with a amonim carbonate solution, It mixed very well with just a spoon, no mixers. It has been sitting on the counter for 2 days, actually today is a third day and I have not noticed any viscosity changes. It looks exactly as I have mixed it fresh. My first attempt in printing was a disaster. I have not made anything that bad in a long time. Looking at it I think I overloaded it with black pigment. It looked so dark and beautiful when brushing. Unfortunatly it mostly flaked out leaving a horrible stain and traces of the image. > I am going to try with watercolour pigments and a lower load, perhaps similar to gum > Not discourage just curious. > Marek > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From frangst at gmail.com Fri Apr 22 19:27:40 2011 From: frangst at gmail.com (francis schanberger) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 15:27:40 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] for you non-casein types, anthotype Message-ID: If variety of the spice of life, as of late I have been experimenting with anthotype which I hope to continue during my residency in Boston this summer. My blog has turned into a anthotype pigment preparation, trials and errors. Unfortunately we are in the rainy season in Ohio and over the last 3 weeks, I can count the number of sunny days on one hand. My tests and preparation with small purple flowers is heading into the "printing frame outside" but with the lack of direct sunlight I am going to need to find an indoor alternative. There are also examples of two pokeberry juice anthotypes I have made over the last two months. Head on over to... http://francisschanberger.blogspot.com/ ...if you want to see my sufferings. Later today and Sunday I have a lot of flower picking to do. -- francis schanberger www.francisschanberger.com From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Fri Apr 22 19:37:40 2011 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 19:37:40 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein In-Reply-To: <95920042-D45F-4E61-A4A0-31D2BEE7DCB4@montana.net> References: , , <95920042-D45F-4E61-A4A0-31D2BEE7DCB4@montana.net> Message-ID: THenks for kind words. I will not put those first prints on display, although I saved one. ANother question. How long does the sensitized solution keep? ANd another one: how fast is the dark reaction? Marek P>S> I am on the second set of prints now... exposing > From: zphoto at montana.net > Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 13:23:02 -0600 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein > > Marek, > I will scan my very first set of casein prints and put them in the same URL location shortly and you will see there is hope between those first prints and the ones I have in the Past Lives on my website. > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > On Apr 22, 2011, at 1:14 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > All, > > My casein pwoder came a few days ago and I gave it a try. I mixed it with a amonim carbonate solution, It mixed very well with just a spoon, no mixers. It has been sitting on the counter for 2 days, actually today is a third day and I have not noticed any viscosity changes. It looks exactly as I have mixed it fresh. My first attempt in printing was a disaster. I have not made anything that bad in a long time. Looking at it I think I overloaded it with black pigment. It looked so dark and beautiful when brushing. Unfortunatly it mostly flaked out leaving a horrible stain and traces of the image. > > I am going to try with watercolour pigments and a lower load, perhaps similar to gum > > Not discourage just curious. > > Marek > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Fri Apr 22 20:35:25 2011 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 14:35:25 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein In-Reply-To: References: , , <95920042-D45F-4E61-A4A0-31D2BEE7DCB4@montana.net> Message-ID: Not sure about answers to your questions; maybe Peter Blackburn will know. However, from experience, it is quicker with everything so I don't mess around...I have coated, dried on cool with a hair dryer and exposed immediately. But I have also done 8 at once and thus the last one definitely sits over 1/2 hour. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Apr 22, 2011, at 1:37 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > > THenks for kind words. I will not put those first prints on display, although I saved one. ANother question. How long does the sensitized solution keep? > ANd another one: how fast is the dark reaction? > Marek > P>S> I am on the second set of prints now... exposing > >> From: zphoto at montana.net >> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 13:23:02 -0600 >> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein >> >> Marek, >> I will scan my very first set of casein prints and put them in the same URL location shortly and you will see there is hope between those first prints and the ones I have in the Past Lives on my website. >> Chris >> >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> >> On Apr 22, 2011, at 1:14 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> All, >>> My casein pwoder came a few days ago and I gave it a try. I mixed it with a amonim carbonate solution, It mixed very well with just a spoon, no mixers. It has been sitting on the counter for 2 days, actually today is a third day and I have not noticed any viscosity changes. It looks exactly as I have mixed it fresh. My first attempt in printing was a disaster. I have not made anything that bad in a long time. Looking at it I think I overloaded it with black pigment. It looked so dark and beautiful when brushing. Unfortunatly it mostly flaked out leaving a horrible stain and traces of the image. >>> I am going to try with watercolour pigments and a lower load, perhaps similar to gum >>> Not discourage just curious. >>> Marek >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From richsul at earthlink.net Fri Apr 22 23:32:35 2011 From: richsul at earthlink.net (Richard Sullivan) Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 17:32:35 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein In-Reply-To: References: , , <95920042-D45F-4E61-A4A0-31D2BEE7DCB4@montana.net> Message-ID: <004f01cc0145$903a1ac0$b0ae5040$@net> Just in case you missed this along the way: http://books.google.com/books?id=H_8JAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA141&dq=casein+photography &hl=en&ei=K_OxTbvEDoWasAPjwNnnCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved= 0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=casein%20photography&f=false and: CASEIN EMULSION. BY JOHN BARTLETT. HERE is a class of bodies known to the chemist as the protein compounds, two of the members of which have recently played a very important part in the development of dryplate photography, namely, gelatine and albumen; but there is another member whose importance, as far as the writer's knowledge extends, seems to have been entirely overlooked, though its analogy to the rest of the group might have suggested its employment long ago. The comparatively good results which were produced, notwithstanding the careless and hap-hazard manner of manipulation, have induced the writer to make the facts in the case known to the profession, leaving them to judge of their worth. Milk, when subjected to a well-known operation, yields butter and a thin watery fluid containing salts and a curdy substance called cheese, which the chemist, however, calls casein. In a dry state casein is inodorous and of an amber-green color, insipid when tasted, possessing neither an acid nor alkaline reaction, putrefying when exposed for a long time to the air. It combines readily with bases forming compounds, and resembles albumen by being precipitated by the metallic salts, and forming with them two combinations, namely, one of casein and the acid, and another of casein and the metallic oxide. Such are its properties as it occurs in its ordinary state of solution in milk, but there is another method of making it, by which it is obtained perfectly free from alkali, and by which it possesses certain characteristics it does not have in its ordinary condition. Ordinary skim milk, freed as far as possible from the traces of cream, which persist in spite of the anxious care of the milkman, is coagulated with some dilute acid (in the present instance acetic acid was made use of) and the whey from the coagulum pressed through aflannel cloth. The cheese thus producea is dissolved in a dilute solution of carbonate of soda, and then precipitated by hydrochloric acid; the precipitate is repeatedly washed with water containing about two per cent, of hydrochloric acid. It is then mixed with pure water, in which it swells and gradually dissolves, especially if the temperature be slightly raised (about 100?). This solution might be called the hydrochlorate of casein, from which the casein may be obtained by carefully neutralizing with an alkali. The precipitate must then be washed. Casein so formed is but slightly soluble in pure water, but is easily soluble in chloride or bromide of ammonium, or in pure ammonia. It is also soluble in nitrate of potassa and other neutral alkaline salts. It dissolves in dilute mineral acids, but is piecipitated when the acid is in excess. If its solution in an alkali he precipitated by hydrochloric acid, the hydrochlorate of casein, if we may so call it, is soluble in pure water; before dissolving, however, it swells into a jelly-like mass. It was this peculiarity which suggested its employment as a substitute for gelatine. >From its solution in water it is again precipitated either by a strong acid or an alkali. The deposit thrown down by hydrochloric acid swells and dissolves in alcohol, but is precipitated again by addition of ether, this precipitate being again soluble in water. Merely boiling the solutions of casein produces no precipitate. Such are the chemical properties of casein. The methods of obtaining it in a soluble condition might suggest to the photographer some mode of application in the production of emulsions for dry plates. The writer not being familiar with the ordinary emulsion practice, made use of such combinations as he supposed would produce sensitive surfaces. Having neither the leisure nor the skill requisite to the making of a good emulsion, he offers these hints to the profession, trusting they may be of some value. The rapidity with which the plates worked, notwithstanding uneven coating and other defects, and the development of the image with the ordinary developers, gave promise that something better might result in the hands of a skilful and patient investigator. A number of different combinations were made, the proportions of chemicals varying. With excess of ammonia, however, an increase of sensitiveness was always secured, but with a constant tendency to fog when the plate was developed. That these few suggestions may fall somewhere on good ground and yield abundant harvest is the sincere wish of the writer. -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Christina Anderson Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 2:35 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein Not sure about answers to your questions; maybe Peter Blackburn will know. However, from experience, it is quicker with everything so I don't mess around...I have coated, dried on cool with a hair dryer and exposed immediately. But I have also done 8 at once and thus the last one definitely sits over 1/2 hour. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Apr 22, 2011, at 1:37 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > > THenks for kind words. I will not put those first prints on display, although I saved one. ANother question. How long does the sensitized solution keep? > ANd another one: how fast is the dark reaction? > Marek > P>S> I am on the second set of prints now... exposing > >> From: zphoto at montana.net >> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 13:23:02 -0600 >> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein >> >> Marek, >> I will scan my very first set of casein prints and put them in the same URL location shortly and you will see there is hope between those first prints and the ones I have in the Past Lives on my website. >> Chris >> >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> >> On Apr 22, 2011, at 1:14 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> All, >>> My casein pwoder came a few days ago and I gave it a try. I mixed it with a amonim carbonate solution, It mixed very well with just a spoon, no mixers. It has been sitting on the counter for 2 days, actually today is a third day and I have not noticed any viscosity changes. It looks exactly as I have mixed it fresh. My first attempt in printing was a disaster. I have not made anything that bad in a long time. Looking at it I think I overloaded it with black pigment. It looked so dark and beautiful when brushing. Unfortunatly it mostly flaked out leaving a horrible stain and traces of the image. >>> I am going to try with watercolour pigments and a lower load, perhaps similar to gum >>> Not discourage just curious. >>> Marek >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From alt.list at albertonovo.it Sat Apr 23 09:49:35 2011 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 11:49:35 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110423094935.16875.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> > Continuing my casein exploration. Today I went to use my nickel azo yellow stock solution and here is what it looked like: > > http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=2076 > > not a problem with thalo and magenta (yet). > > Interesting. > Chris "It combines readily with bases forming compounds, and resembles albumen by being precipitated by the metallic salts, and forming with them two combinations, namely, one of casein and the acid, and another of casein and the metallic oxide." (quoted from Richard's post) This is the answer to your question: the interaction between nichel and casein. The same should happen with copper, manganese, chromium and other metallic pigments, like verdigris, manganese violet, raw and burnt umber, viridian green, hematite, Mars black and other iron-based earths, etc. But I think that they require some time to react with casein, like in your experience. Alberto www.grupponamias.com www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group From zphoto at montana.net Sat Apr 23 14:22:46 2011 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 08:22:46 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein In-Reply-To: <20110423094935.16875.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> References: <20110423094935.16875.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> Message-ID: LOL Alberto, this is GREAT. Here is, therefore, one pigment that is "incompatible" with casein--in stock, that is. I have stock solutions of about 10 pigmented caseins mixed up and when this happened it made me worry about all the rest, too. But so far, so good. I have mixed some iron based earths, though...red iron oxides, yellow ochres...we'll see how those fare. Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Apr 23, 2011, at 3:49 AM, Alberto Novo wrote: >> Continuing my casein exploration. Today I went to use my nickel azo yellow stock solution and here is what it looked like: http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=2076 not a problem with thalo and magenta (yet). Interesting. >> Chris > > "It combines readily with bases forming compounds, and resembles albumen by > being precipitated by the metallic salts, and forming with them two > combinations, namely, one of casein and the acid, and another of casein and > the metallic oxide." > (quoted from Richard's post) > This is the answer to your question: the interaction between nichel and casein. The same should happen with copper, manganese, chromium and other metallic pigments, like verdigris, manganese violet, raw and burnt umber, viridian green, hematite, Mars black and other iron-based earths, etc. > But I think that they require some time to react with casein, like in your experience. > Alberto > www.grupponamias.com > www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Sat Apr 23 14:44:40 2011 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Sat, 23 Apr 2011 08:44:40 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein In-Reply-To: <004f01cc0145$903a1ac0$b0ae5040$@net> References: , , <95920042-D45F-4E61-A4A0-31D2BEE7DCB4@montana.net> <004f01cc0145$903a1ac0$b0ae5040$@net> Message-ID: <39D4F92E-9F42-4B0E-AD74-C90B2F185213@montana.net> Thanks, Richard, for the link! Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Apr 22, 2011, at 5:32 PM, Richard Sullivan wrote: > Just in case you missed this along the way: > > http://books.google.com/books?id=H_8JAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA141&dq=casein+photography > &hl=en&ei=K_OxTbvEDoWasAPjwNnnCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved= > 0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=casein%20photography&f=false > > and: > > CASEIN EMULSION. > > BY JOHN BARTLETT. > > HERE is a class of bodies known to the chemist as the protein compounds, two > of the members of which have recently played a very important part in the > development of dryplate photography, namely, gelatine and albumen; but there > is another member whose importance, as far as the writer's knowledge > extends, seems to have been entirely overlooked, though its analogy to the > rest of the group might have suggested its employment long ago. The > comparatively good results which were produced, notwithstanding the careless > and hap-hazard manner of manipulation, have induced the writer to make the > facts in the case known to the profession, leaving them to judge of their > worth. > > Milk, when subjected to a well-known operation, yields butter and a thin > watery fluid containing salts and a curdy substance called cheese, which the > chemist, however, calls casein. > > In a dry state casein is inodorous and of an amber-green color, insipid when > tasted, possessing neither an acid nor alkaline reaction, putrefying when > exposed for a long time to the air. > > It combines readily with bases forming compounds, and resembles albumen by > being precipitated by the metallic salts, and forming with them two > combinations, namely, one of casein and the acid, and another of casein and > the metallic oxide. Such are its properties as it occurs in its ordinary > state of solution in milk, but there is another method of making it, by > which it is obtained perfectly free from alkali, and by which it possesses > certain characteristics it does not have in its ordinary condition. > > Ordinary skim milk, freed as far as possible from the traces of cream, which > persist in spite of the anxious care of the milkman, is coagulated with some > dilute acid (in the present instance acetic acid was made use of) and the > whey from the coagulum pressed through aflannel cloth. The cheese thus > producea is dissolved in a dilute solution of carbonate of soda, and then > precipitated by hydrochloric acid; the precipitate is repeatedly washed with > water containing about two per cent, of hydrochloric acid. It is then mixed > with pure water, in which it swells and gradually dissolves, especially if > the temperature be slightly raised (about 100?). This solution might be > called the hydrochlorate of casein, from which the casein may be obtained by > carefully neutralizing with an alkali. The precipitate must then be washed. > > Casein so formed is but slightly soluble in pure water, but is easily > soluble in chloride or bromide of ammonium, or in pure ammonia. It is also > soluble in nitrate of potassa and other neutral alkaline salts. It dissolves > in dilute mineral acids, but is piecipitated when the acid is in excess. If > its solution in an alkali he precipitated by hydrochloric acid, the > hydrochlorate of casein, if we may so call it, is soluble in pure water; > before dissolving, however, it swells into a jelly-like mass. It was this > peculiarity which suggested its employment as a substitute for gelatine. > >> From its solution in water it is again precipitated either by a strong acid > or an alkali. The deposit thrown down by hydrochloric acid swells and > dissolves in alcohol, but is precipitated again by addition of ether, this > precipitate being again soluble in water. > > Merely boiling the solutions of casein produces no precipitate. Such are the > chemical properties of casein. The methods of obtaining it in a soluble > condition might suggest to the photographer some mode of application in the > production of emulsions for dry plates. > > The writer not being familiar with the ordinary emulsion practice, made use > of such combinations as he supposed would produce sensitive surfaces. Having > neither the leisure nor the skill requisite to the making of a good > emulsion, he offers these hints to the profession, trusting they may be of > some value. > > The rapidity with which the plates worked, notwithstanding uneven coating > and other defects, and the development of the image with the ordinary > developers, gave promise that something better might result in the hands of > a skilful and patient investigator. > > > A number of different combinations were made, the proportions of chemicals > varying. With excess of ammonia, however, an increase of sensitiveness was > always secured, but with a constant tendency to fog when the plate was > developed. > > That these few suggestions may fall somewhere on good ground and yield > abundant harvest is the sincere wish of the writer. > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of > Christina Anderson > Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 2:35 PM > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein > > Not sure about answers to your questions; maybe Peter Blackburn will know. > However, from experience, it is quicker with everything so I don't mess > around...I have coated, dried on cool with a hair dryer and exposed > immediately. But I have also done 8 at once and thus the last one definitely > sits over 1/2 hour. > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > On Apr 22, 2011, at 1:37 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > >> >> THenks for kind words. I will not put those first prints on display, > although I saved one. ANother question. How long does the sensitized > solution keep? >> ANd another one: how fast is the dark reaction? >> Marek >> P>S> I am on the second set of prints now... exposing >> >>> From: zphoto at montana.net >>> Date: Fri, 22 Apr 2011 13:23:02 -0600 >>> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >>> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein >>> >>> Marek, >>> I will scan my very first set of casein prints and put them in the same > URL location shortly and you will see there is hope between those first > prints and the ones I have in the Past Lives on my website. >>> Chris >>> >>> Christina Z. Anderson >>> christinaZanderson.com >>> >>> On Apr 22, 2011, at 1:14 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> All, >>>> My casein pwoder came a few days ago and I gave it a try. I mixed it > with a amonim carbonate solution, It mixed very well with just a spoon, no > mixers. It has been sitting on the counter for 2 days, actually today is a > third day and I have not noticed any viscosity changes. It looks exactly as > I have mixed it fresh. My first attempt in printing was a disaster. I have > not made anything that bad in a long time. Looking at it I think I > overloaded it with black pigment. It looked so dark and beautiful when > brushing. Unfortunatly it mostly flaked out leaving a horrible stain and > traces of the image. >>>> I am going to try with watercolour pigments and a lower load, perhaps > similar to gum >>>> Not discourage just curious. >>>> Marek >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From davidashcraft at sti.net Mon Apr 25 23:46:43 2011 From: davidashcraft at sti.net (David Ashcraft) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 16:46:43 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Platine Message-ID: <066D3DB7-90F8-4712-9118-CC4C5C748A92@sti.net> Has anybody used the new Platine? Is there any difference from the older stock? Thanks David From ejnphoto at sbcglobal.net Tue Apr 26 02:28:16 2011 From: ejnphoto at sbcglobal.net (EJ Photo) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 21:28:16 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Platine In-Reply-To: <066D3DB7-90F8-4712-9118-CC4C5C748A92@sti.net> References: <066D3DB7-90F8-4712-9118-CC4C5C748A92@sti.net> Message-ID: <763E0DA4F5D7428FB3D6F1627B88ECBD@Eric64> David, In my conversation with Martin about it back in January, I recall that he was going to be working to make it better. I think any time you start a new batch with something like this, it's bound to be different. How is the question. Eric Neilsen Eric Neilsen Photography 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 Dallas, TX 75226 www.ericneilsenphotography.com skype me with ejprinter www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1 Let's Talk Photography -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of David Ashcraft Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 6:47 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Platine Has anybody used the new Platine? Is there any difference from the older stock? Thanks David _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From fdanb at aol.com Tue Apr 26 02:42:12 2011 From: fdanb at aol.com (Dan Burkholder) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 22:42:12 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Platine In-Reply-To: <763E0DA4F5D7428FB3D6F1627B88ECBD@Eric64> References: <066D3DB7-90F8-4712-9118-CC4C5C748A92@sti.net> <763E0DA4F5D7428FB3D6F1627B88ECBD@Eric64> Message-ID: <6BF83A4D-AEAC-4DD4-8E0C-FCA63C5E4415@aol.com> Hey Eric and Dave, I have a batch of the new Platine here but haven't had a chance to test it yet. Martin was kind enough to call several weeks ago with a glowing report on the consistency and quality. Among other things he mentioned was an interesting property in which sensitizer extension (adding distilled water to increase the total amount of sensitizer) would result in a deeper D-max. He also said tween was not needed. Martin has always been a straight-shooter on the Platine, acknowledging problems in the past (even steering me to Bergger) and working to make the paper better. We purchased our pack of large sheets from Orange Art in CT. Hope this helps! Dan info at DanBurkholder.com www.DanBurkholder.com On Apr 25, 2011, at 10:28 PM, EJ Photo wrote: > David, In my conversation with Martin about it back in January, I recall > that he was going to be working to make it better. I think any time you > start a new batch with something like this, it's bound to be different. How > is the question. > > Eric Neilsen > Eric Neilsen Photography > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 > Dallas, TX 75226 > > www.ericneilsenphotography.com > skype me with ejprinter > www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1 > Let's Talk Photography > > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of > David Ashcraft > Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 6:47 PM > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > Subject: [alt-photo] Platine > > Has anybody used the new Platine? Is there any difference from the > older stock? > > Thanks > David > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From davidashcraft at sti.net Tue Apr 26 02:49:45 2011 From: davidashcraft at sti.net (David Ashcraft) Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2011 19:49:45 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Platine In-Reply-To: <6BF83A4D-AEAC-4DD4-8E0C-FCA63C5E4415@aol.com> References: <066D3DB7-90F8-4712-9118-CC4C5C748A92@sti.net> <763E0DA4F5D7428FB3D6F1627B88ECBD@Eric64> <6BF83A4D-AEAC-4DD4-8E0C-FCA63C5E4415@aol.com> Message-ID: Thanks Eric and Dan, I'll give it a test drive soon. I usually order a large batch at a time (large for me) so wanted to make sure I wouldn't waste any money. Hey Dan, nice cover shot on the Freestyle catalog. David On Apr 25, 2011, at 7:42 PM, Dan Burkholder wrote: > Hey Eric and Dave, > > I have a batch of the new Platine here but haven't had a chance to > test it yet. Martin was kind enough to call several weeks ago with a > glowing report on the consistency and quality. Among other things he > mentioned was an interesting property in which sensitizer extension > (adding distilled water to increase the total amount of sensitizer) > would result in a deeper D-max. He also said tween was not needed. > Martin has always been a straight-shooter on the Platine, > acknowledging problems in the past (even steering me to Bergger) and > working to make the paper better. > > We purchased our pack of large sheets from Orange Art in CT. > > Hope this helps! > > Dan > > > info at DanBurkholder.com > www.DanBurkholder.com > > On Apr 25, 2011, at 10:28 PM, EJ Photo wrote: > >> David, In my conversation with Martin about it back in January, I >> recall >> that he was going to be working to make it better. I think any time >> you >> start a new batch with something like this, it's bound to be >> different. How >> is the question. >> >> Eric Neilsen >> Eric Neilsen Photography >> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 >> Dallas, TX 75226 >> >> www.ericneilsenphotography.com >> skype me with ejprinter >> www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1 >> Let's Talk Photography >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org >> [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On >> Behalf Of >> David Ashcraft >> Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 6:47 PM >> To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list >> Subject: [alt-photo] Platine >> >> Has anybody used the new Platine? Is there any difference from the >> older stock? >> >> Thanks >> David >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From kakarott76 at hotmail.com Tue Apr 26 03:13:56 2011 From: kakarott76 at hotmail.com (Kurt Nagy) Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2011 03:13:56 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] My Gum prints Message-ID: Hey all, here are a few of the gum prints I've been working on, I'm still learning and testing out a lot of different things but I'm pleased so far. http://www.flickr.com/photos/cecilsan/sets/72157626579797800/ All these have been made with traditional negatives on either Bergger sized in Gesso/Gelatin or Rives BFK paper sized with PVA. I'm going to try out pinhole and tri-color separations this summer. Thanks From donsbryant at gmail.com Wed Apr 27 17:06:04 2011 From: donsbryant at gmail.com (Don Bryant) Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2011 13:06:04 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein In-Reply-To: <95920042-D45F-4E61-A4A0-31D2BEE7DCB4@montana.net> References: <95920042-D45F-4E61-A4A0-31D2BEE7DCB4@montana.net> Message-ID: Hello fellow casein experimenters and lurking listees, I wish I could post a glowing report of success with casein printing but to date that's just not the case. My first home made solution of casein still reeks of ammonia. Does anyone know if that is normal? To make the solution I used common household ammonia - 3%. Should I order some Ammonia hydroxide from the Formulary? I have a lifetime supply of sodium hydroxide, would be best if I could get that to work since the am. Hydroxide has serious hazmat fees to ship. After leaving the jar of liquid casein uncapped for a couple of days, I came down to my darkroom to discover ants floating around in the solution. Seeing that, I recapped the solution and left it sitting on the counter. This batch was mixed on April 14th. There it still sits. I have attempted to make casein powder without adding alkali just out of curiosity. What I have ended up with is a hard mass that reminds me of dried out Play-Doh. Just in case anyone wants to make their own home grown Play-Doh click here: http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Make-Playdough-Play-doh/ I'll attempt to grind the lump into a powder in my darkroom blender, but mulling this stuff into a fine maybe more labor than the stuff is worth. The initial curd I produced was very reminiscent of cottage cheese - white, lumpy, and wet. > My casein pwoder came a few days ago and I gave it a try. I mixed it with a amonim carbonate solution, It mixed very well with just a spoon, no mixers. It has been sitting on the counter for 2 days, actually today is a third day and I have not noticed any viscosity changes. It looks exactly as I have mixed it fresh. My first attempt in printing was a disaster. I have not made anything that bad in a long time. Looking at it I think I overloaded it with black pigment. It looked so dark and beautiful when brushing. Unfortunatly it mostly flaked out leaving a horrible stain and traces of the image. I am going to try with watercolour pigments and a lower load, perhaps similar to gum Not discourage just curious. Marek > I may just throw in the towel and purchase some ammonium caseinate though I'm eager to make and compare sodium caseinate. Thanks to Marek for the great link to Earth pigments, I just received their dry pigment color chart yesterday in the mail, but being able to make ones own caseinate appeals to me. The dry Earth pigs. seem like a good value but are they resilient and non-fading? > I will scan my very first set of casein prints and put them in the same URL location shortly and you will see there is hope between those first prints and the ones I have in the Past Lives on my website. Chris > I was reticent to mix a tube of watercolor pigment into a stock solution of casein and now I'm glad I didn't seeing C.Z. Anderson's recent post on her experimental web page of showing the results of clotted nickel AZO. I would like to get this process to work, if possible printing tri-color on black plastic. Thanks to Dick Sullivan for posting that oh so salient link to the Google doc. Got any plans to sell caseinate Dick? Until I started reading about this milk by product on the net I never realized how important and widely produced casein and caseinate is. For a protein starved world I suppose this makes sense. Is there any pointing in considering Calcium caseinate? Thanks for reading the ramble, Don Bryant From alt.list at albertonovo.it Thu Apr 28 10:25:32 2011 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:25:32 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein In-Reply-To: References: <95920042-D45F-4E61-A4A0-31D2BEE7DCB4@montana.net> Message-ID: <20110428102532.15777.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> Don, > My first home made solution of casein still reeks of ammonia. Does anyone > know if that is normal? To make the solution I used common household ammonia > - 3%. Should I order some Ammonia hydroxide from the Formulary? I have a > lifetime supply of sodium hydroxide, would be best if I could get that to > work since the am. Hydroxide has serious hazmat fees to ship. > > After leaving the jar of liquid casein uncapped for a couple of days, I came > down to my darkroom to discover ants floating around in the solution. Seeing > that, I recapped the solution and left it sitting on the counter. This batch > was mixed on April 14th. There it still sits. Are you trying to let the ammonia evaporate from the solution, probably because you dislike its smell? It will take more time than it is required by the alkalinity of the solution to break the casein molecula. I prefer to use it in a few days from the preparation, or to keep it -tightly capped- in the refrigerator. If you wish to prepare sodium caseinate, then use: casein powder 6g water 50 cc sodium hydroxide 1.7% 10 cc Heat with stirring at 70-80?C for 15-30 in a water bath, then cool. > Is there any pointing in considering Calcium caseinate? Why to complicate your life if ammonium and sodium are enough? :-) Alberto www.grupponamias.com www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Thu Apr 28 15:26:58 2011 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 15:26:58 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein In-Reply-To: <20110428102532.15777.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> References: , , <95920042-D45F-4E61-A4A0-31D2BEE7DCB4@montana.net>, , <20110428102532.15777.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> Message-ID: Alberto and Don, It is interesting that I ended up with about 12% casein solution, very similar to yours. The ammonia smell from ammonium carbonate is rather faint, almost non existent. The solution feels like a typical gum solution. I used watercolour indantrone blue (Danil Smith) with more or less of what I would use for a monochromatic gum, much more concentrated then for a tricolour printing. Th esensitizer consisted of 10cc of this ammonim caseinate/pigment solution and 5 cc of saturated ammonium dichromate. Coating was done with brush and then smoothed with a foam roller. I also use the foam roller to pick up excess of sensitizing solution. This results in a very even and thin coat. I use the same method for gum printing. The exposure was about 1 to 1:15 minutes on a bank of UV lights. With the same negative I would expose 2-3 minutes for gum. My negatives are actually palladium/carbon type, but that is what I use for gum printing. After a few minutes of soaking I could see some elements of print emerging and as advised by the posts took a very soft brush and started working on the print. It was really a wonderful experience and after a few minutes of brushing I had a great print with absolutely clean highlights and great tonality. It was amazing how easy the whole process was. Nex day I coated a second layer of caseinate/graphite gray and exposed for 45 seconds to add some density to shadows and tone down the intense blue. I think I am hooked on the process and mesmerized by the ability to selectively use brushes or other tools for developing. FOr a long time I wanted to print on silver or gold leaf and caseine might be the ticket. After years of printing gum I am excited about this new process. Marek > From: alt.list at albertonovo.it > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 12:25:32 +0200 > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein > > Don, > > > My first home made solution of casein still reeks of ammonia. Does anyone > > know if that is normal? To make the solution I used common household ammonia > > - 3%. Should I order some Ammonia hydroxide from the Formulary? I have a > > lifetime supply of sodium hydroxide, would be best if I could get that to > > work since the am. Hydroxide has serious hazmat fees to ship. > > > > After leaving the jar of liquid casein uncapped for a couple of days, I came > > down to my darkroom to discover ants floating around in the solution. Seeing > > that, I recapped the solution and left it sitting on the counter. This batch > > was mixed on April 14th. There it still sits. > > Are you trying to let the ammonia evaporate from the solution, probably > because you dislike its smell? > It will take more time than it is required by the alkalinity of the solution > to break the casein molecula. I prefer to use it in a few days from the > preparation, or to keep it -tightly capped- in the refrigerator. > If you wish to prepare sodium caseinate, then use: > casein powder 6g > water 50 cc > sodium hydroxide 1.7% 10 cc > Heat with stirring at 70-80?C for 15-30 in a water bath, then cool. > > > Is there any pointing in considering Calcium caseinate? > > Why to complicate your life if ammonium and sodium are enough? :-) > > Alberto > www.grupponamias.com > www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From trevor at chalkjockeys.com Thu Apr 28 19:04:22 2011 From: trevor at chalkjockeys.com (Trevor Cunningham) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 22:04:22 +0300 Subject: [alt-photo] I love New York in June! In-Reply-To: References: , , <95920042-D45F-4E61-A4A0-31D2BEE7DCB4@montana.net>, , <20110428102532.15777.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> Message-ID: <4DB9BA36.7050509@chalkjockeys.com> OK, here's the deal, I have a week of mornings and afternoons during the last week in June to explore NYC. I'm hungry for anything alt and would love some recommendations. The wife is attending a conference at Columbia all week and I have the privilege to tag along to the big city. Judy? From ejnphoto at sbcglobal.net Thu Apr 28 23:51:48 2011 From: ejnphoto at sbcglobal.net (EJ Photo) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 18:51:48 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: I love New York in June! In-Reply-To: <4DB9BA36.7050509@chalkjockeys.com> References: , , <95920042-D45F-4E61-A4A0-31D2BEE7DCB4@montana.net>, , <20110428102532.15777.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <4DB9BA36.7050509@chalkjockeys.com> Message-ID: <77672C86C9F54225BF5ABC6E56045BFD@Eric64> June, NYC... It must be the Mermaid Parade at Coney Island. Eric Neilsen Eric Neilsen Photography 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 Dallas, TX 75226 www.ericneilsenphotography.com skype me with ejprinter www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1 Let's Talk Photography -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Trevor Cunningham Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 2:04 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] I love New York in June! OK, here's the deal, I have a week of mornings and afternoons during the last week in June to explore NYC. I'm hungry for anything alt and would love some recommendations. The wife is attending a conference at Columbia all week and I have the privilege to tag along to the big city. Judy? _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From donsbryant at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 00:10:32 2011 From: donsbryant at gmail.com (Don Bryant) Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 20:10:32 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein In-Reply-To: <20110428102532.15777.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> References: <95920042-D45F-4E61-A4A0-31D2BEE7DCB4@montana.net> <20110428102532.15777.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> Message-ID: <730D4F27BD2640FD98F425ADCA28EF2D@TravlinHP> Alberto, > Are you trying to let the ammonia evaporate from the solution, probably because you dislike its smell? > The odor doesn't concern me, however for some reason I thought it desirable to have the ammonia dissipate (evaporate). > It will take more time than it is required by the alkalinity of the solution to break the casein molecula. I prefer to use it in a few days from the preparation, or to keep it -tightly capped- in the refrigerator. > Why? > If you wish to prepare sodium caseinate, then use: casein powder 6g water 50 cc sodium hydroxide 1.7% 10 cc Heat with stirring at 70-80?C for 15-30 in a water bath, then cool. > Thanks for that formula. > Is there any pointing in considering Calcium caseinate? > Why to complicate your life if ammonium and sodium are enough? :-) Just thought I would inquire since cal. cas. seems to be a common form. Don From trevor at chalkjockeys.com Fri Apr 29 09:30:12 2011 From: trevor at chalkjockeys.com (Trevor Cunningham) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 12:30:12 +0300 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: I love New York in June! In-Reply-To: <77672C86C9F54225BF5ABC6E56045BFD@Eric64> References: , , <95920042-D45F-4E61-A4A0-31D2BEE7DCB4@montana.net>, , <20110428102532.15777.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <4DB9BA36.7050509@chalkjockeys.com> <77672C86C9F54225BF5ABC6E56045BFD@Eric64> Message-ID: <4DBA8524.90800@chalkjockeys.com> I wish I was going to have that much fun. My week is too late for the parade, and ends before the fireworks on the 4th. I guess I'll be humdrum and go to some galleries. Any recommendations and/or alt shows for June 24-July2? On 4/29/11 2:51 AM, EJ Photo wrote: > June, NYC... It must be the Mermaid Parade at Coney Island. From frangst at gmail.com Fri Apr 29 15:09:41 2011 From: frangst at gmail.com (francis schanberger) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 11:09:41 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: I love New York in June! In-Reply-To: <4DBA8524.90800@chalkjockeys.com> References: <95920042-D45F-4E61-A4A0-31D2BEE7DCB4@montana.net> <20110428102532.15777.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <4DB9BA36.7050509@chalkjockeys.com> <77672C86C9F54225BF5ABC6E56045BFD@Eric64> <4DBA8524.90800@chalkjockeys.com> Message-ID: Trevor, I would stop by Aperture gallery in Soho and ask them for exhibitions that may be up or opening around the time you are in the city. Also, pick up Photograph Magazine (which used to be New York Photography Guide). I think it costs 4-5 dollars but has maps and contact information for most of the galleries and museums showing photography. When I visited NYC last month I just happen to catch two exhibitions that employed liquid photo emulsion (silver gelatin) on handmade paper. Jungjin Lee's "Wind" exhibition at Aperture and Jean Pagliuso was showing her Poultry and Raptor Suites of enlarged photo emulsion prints on Kaji and Thai Mulberry papers at the Marlborough gallery. It was just by chance. Good luck. -francis On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 5:30 AM, Trevor Cunningham wrote: > I wish I was going to have that much fun. My week is too late for the > parade, and ends before the fireworks on the 4th. I guess I'll be humdrum > and go to some galleries. Any recommendations and/or alt shows for June > 24-July2? > > > On 4/29/11 2:51 AM, EJ Photo wrote: > >> June, NYC... It must be the Mermaid Parade at Coney Island. >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > -- francis schanberger www.francisschanberger.com From alt.list at albertonovo.it Fri Apr 29 17:13:43 2011 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 19:13:43 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein In-Reply-To: <730D4F27BD2640FD98F425ADCA28EF2D@TravlinHP> References: <95920042-D45F-4E61-A4A0-31D2BEE7DCB4@montana.net> <20110428102532.15777.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it> <730D4F27BD2640FD98F425ADCA28EF2D@TravlinHP> Message-ID: <20110429171343.20012.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> Don, >> It will take more time than it is required by the alkalinity of the solution >> to break the casein molecula. I prefer to use it in a few days from the >> preparation, or to keep it -tightly capped- in the refrigerator. >> > > Why? Casein is a protein that could be defined as a natural polymer produced by the reaction of many amino acids. The acid group of a molecule reacts with the amino group of a second, etc. These links can be (more or less easily) broken by OH- ions, such as those from aqueous ammonia or sodium hydroxide. The temperature, as usual, helps this reaction, hence the low temperatures delay it. Alberto www.grupponamias.com www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Fri Apr 29 17:34:08 2011 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 17:34:08 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Casein structure In-Reply-To: <20110429171343.20012.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> References: , , <95920042-D45F-4E61-A4A0-31D2BEE7DCB4@montana.net>, , <20110428102532.15777.qmail@webmaildh4.aruba.it>, <730D4F27BD2640FD98F425ADCA28EF2D@TravlinHP>, <20110429171343.20012.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> Message-ID: Casein fanatics Found this nice picture of the alpha casein molecule. http://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary/summary.cgi?cid=134288 All those beautiful amino acids forming a peptide molecule. This casein chemistry is definitely going to be fun. Marek From dlhbloomfield at gmail.com Sat Apr 30 13:36:52 2011 From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2011 09:36:52 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Katharine Thayer Memorial Message-ID: I thought I would just post this information here for anyone who would like to attend. Katharine's Memorial is scheduled for Saturday, May 14, at 1 pm, in Portland: A Celebration of the Life of Katharine Thayer Saturday, May 14, 1 pm Center for Architecture 403 NW 11th Street (11th & Flanders - Entrance on Flanders) Portland, Oregon 97209 Please bring memories, pictures, poems, songs and thoughts to share. Sharing will be followed by a casual gathering with food and beverages. Please, no flowers. We suggest donations to your local Public Radio Station. For more information, please contact Doug Brown douglasb at teleport.com or Heather Thayer hthayer at visi.com Please share this information with those who would like to know.