[alt-photo] Re: casein

Tue Mar 8 14:39:15 GMT 2011

Well, I went to look at what kind of label I had, and it turns out what I am
using is  from Sinopia.  DOH!  But the blender did do wonders for the clumps
I had.  Thanks for that advice!

On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 8:06 AM, Christina Anderson <zphoto at montana.net>wrote:

> The reason I asked is there are two kinds at Kremer, the thick honey stuff
> and the thinner other brand. It looks like the Kremer label is glued on top
> of Schmincke so Schmincke is the actual manufacturer of the thick honey
> stuff. Kremer also sells powdered caseinate. Try 10%. I mixed it from powder
> in my food processor (would've used a blender but my kids took it) and no
> more difficult than gum. It whips up like egg whites and then the foam
> subsides in an hour or two. Really. 400ml turns into 1 liter foam and then
> goes into normal gum-looking liquid very rapidly. Best part--plain water, no
> ammonia at all...
> Chris
> Christina Z. Anderson
> christinaZanderson.com
>
> On Mar 8, 2011, at 5:57 AM, Keith Gerling wrote:
>
> > I first batch I made months ago: honey colored and VERY thick.  I just
> made
> > another batch using Kremer and it's a real mess.  Thinner, whiter, and
> with
> > globs I cannot get to dissolve even with more ammonia than I used before.
> > Maybe I need to let this stuff age for awhile, while YOU do the research!
> > How did you mix yours?
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 10:03 PM, Christina Anderson <zphoto at montana.net
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Keith,
> >> (armchair caseinist here) I got my stuff from Kremer today and it is
> very
> >> thick. Enos' recipe is very thin. Enos' is like as thin as half and
> half,
> >> maybe even a bit thinner. Kremer's is like thick honey. Do you think
> that
> >> might be why it seems not so much different than gum to you? It is so
> much
> >> thinner than gum in my experiments and also the look is different:
> matte-ish
> >> when exposed, developed, and dried, and holds a huge pigment load for
> being
> >> very thin. I guess that relates to the "sturdy" part. I am actually
> quite
> >> intrigued with it...
> >> Maybe Peter can chime in with how thick his casein solution is that he
> >> prefers (e.g. using some descriptive term like pours like yogurt, or
> heavy
> >> cream, or skim milk, or half and half :))
> >> Chris
> >>
> >> Christina Z. Anderson
> >> christinaZanderson.com
> >>
> >> On Mar 4, 2011, at 1:34 PM, Keith Gerling wrote:
> >>
> >>> I've been exploring casein since this thread began.  Here's a link to
> >> three
> >>> prints:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> https://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2088679&id=1173961982&l=fefc42482b
> >>>
> >>> I have to say that there is something almost "wrong" about being able
> to
> >>> towel them off right out of the water.  And the water does stink!  I
> see
> >>> absolutely NO difference between gum and casein in the finished print.
> >>> Coating the emulsion is a little different than with gum.  The casein
> >>> emulsion is somewhat thicker than with gum, and as someone said, it can
> >> be
> >>> tricky to get it smoothed out before it dries, so I've been using a dry
> >>> brush to "buff" out the brushstrokes, a step that I seldom do with gum
> >>> anymore.  I guess you could say that one advantage is that I can
> actually
> >>> brush another coat of casein emulsion over the top of a coat I've just
> >>> applied but not yet exposed to light.  Like when more density is
> >> required.
> >>> Trying that with gum invariably causes the underlying layer to dissolve
> >> and
> >>> lift.
> >>>
> >>> All in all, it is a pretty nice process.  I cant see any compelling
> >> reason
> >>> to switch from gum to casein, but I'm glad I tried it.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 3:59 PM, Christina Anderson <
> zphoto at montana.net
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Thanks, Alberto and Peter, for the comments,
> >>>>
> >>>> When viewing Franklin's casein prints in person, it seemed the grain
> was
> >>>> very fine, miniscule. The colors were brighter but still transparent.
> >>>> Delicate is the word I would describe. And the layer looked very
> finely
> >>>> grained and very thin. Ultra thin. No gloss anywhere like in a gum
> >> print. So
> >>>> those were the differences I perceived in my lowly experience, only
> >> seeing a
> >>>> handful of caseins in person.
> >>>>
> >>>> Just think, Alberto, I will be able to see your caseins in person
> soon!
> >>>> Chris
> >>>>
> >>>> Christina Z. Anderson
> >>>> christinaZanderson.com
> >>>>
> >>>> On Feb 26, 2011, at 2:52 PM, Peter Blackburn wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hello Alberto:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It's been my experience in gum/casein printing that how a print
> appears
> >>>> does not necessarily have anything to do with just the vehicle/binder.
> >> Here
> >>>> in North Texas we have recently formed an alternative processes group
> >> which
> >>>> meets once a month—a wonderful and extremely talented group of artists
> I
> >>>> must say. I have shown my gum and casein work together side-by-side
> and
> >> no
> >>>> one has been able to tell them apart. They are, or can be,
> >>>> indistinguishable— which my point to them and to you is that gum and
> >> casein
> >>>> can be viewed as alternatives to each other. Both are saturated when I
> >> want
> >>>> them so, and subdued when the imagery calls for it. It's all based on
> >> many
> >>>> factors such as negative preparation, pigment choices, exposure, water
> >> bath
> >>>> handling, etc, etc. The only caveat here is that after working with
> >> casein
> >>>> for a long time, making it from powdered milk, then from dried casein,
> >> and
> >>>> now, directly from cheese, I find the direct method makse a great
> >> difference
> >>>> and is the best approach for my work.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I still consider myself a dedicated gum printer and only resorted to
> >>>> learning casein when several years back the weather did not cooperate
> >> for
> >>>> gum printing for many weeks. Sometime in the near future I will blog
> >> about
> >>>> that valuable experience and comment more on casein at
> >>>> alternativephotography.com.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Well, the heavy overcast today prevented both gum and casein printing
> >>>> here in the Dallas area. Cheers all!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Peter J. Blackburn
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> From: alt.list at albertonovo.it
> >>>>>> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org
> >>>>>> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 22:23:02 +0100
> >>>>>> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Anyway, I do have a point to share in this email that may be of use
> >> to
> >>>> the one or two casein printers in existence: has anyone tried this
> from
> >>>> Kremer instead of making the somewhat laborious casein/ammonia
> mixture?
> >>>> SInce it uses borax and is already in suspension, it would seem to be
> a
> >>>> great substitution. But I'm the first to admit I am an armchair casein
> >>>> printer, never having done it, and certainly would not make it my
> >> process of
> >>>> choice because of my commitment to gum.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I found the patent on casein as well. It is not 271 but patent
> >>>> 2,716,061. 1955. Lupo. But two sources on the web said the process in
> >> fact
> >>>> dated from 1908 and don't know about that.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Chris, I made some casein prints some years ago. I tried both casein
> >>>> form
> >>>>>> acidified powdered milk and from pure casein, dissolved in borax and
> >> in
> >>>>>> ammonia. I deem the ammonia solution better than that in borax
> because
> >>>> all
> >>>>>> the excess of ammonia evaporates during drying.
> >>>>>> In muy poor experience, I could define the look of gum and casein
> >> print
> >>>> as:
> >>>>>> gum:watercolor=casein:tempera
> >>>>>> My casein prints are in the Rodolfo Namias Group site, but I have to
> >> say
> >>>>>> that I was interested chiefly to apply the different behaviour of
> >> casein
> >>>> vs.
> >>>>>> gum arabic to a few specific images and one pigment.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> As for the patent, I can add that there are lot of patents about
> using
> >>>>>> alkaline casein and dichromate as a resist for the etching of TV
> color
> >>>>>> screens, chiefly because casein is insoluble in acids. So, the
> >>>> alkalinizing
> >>>>>> agent (sodium hydroxyde, borax and ammonia), the ratios with
> >> dichromate,
> >>>>>> etc. have benn well studied.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> And finally, a member of Gruppo Namias tried casein print using my
> >>>> detailed
> >>>>>> notes, but he had very inconsistent results...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Alberto
> >>>>>> www.grupponamias.com
> >>>>>>
> www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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