[alt-photo] Re: casein

Tue Mar 8 15:50:47 GMT 2011

Hi Keith—

Thanks for the info! Yes, I could just add dichromate without water, but I have tried to keep my gum and casein work as identical as possible. Thankfully at this point I've been able to calibrate the water content of the 5% dichromate to my satisfaction. 

Christina, I think casein didn't catch on, in part, for reasons relating to the relatively primitive technologies of the times. Making casein from powdered milk, while historically accurate, is by far not the best way to make casein for printing in my view.

Peter 

> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 08:43:49 -0600
> From: keith.gerling at gmail.com
> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org
> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein
> 
> Btw, Peter, you dont really HAVE to incorporate water even at the dichromate
> stage. I believe Sam Wang just grinds dichromate right into the emulsion
> w/o even adding water? If not Sam, then someone else I respect did or does
> that.
> 
> On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 8:40 AM, Keith Gerling <keith.gerling at gmail.com>wrote:
> 
> > Well, thanks for the advice about water. I suppose we should be very
> > appreciative that you are willing to share that much!
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 8:29 AM, Peter Blackburn <blackburnap at hotmail.com>wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Hello All!
> >>
> >> My fresh casein has the consistency and appearance of Elmer's Glue—maybe a
> >> tad thinner, but not much. I'm not sure how much I want to disclose about
> >> how I make my casein, but the fact that the powder form is difficult to
> >> dissolve reveals an important Achilles heel to using that method. One thing
> >> I will say—and this is just my opinion, but water is not your friend in the
> >> casein process. I take great care to eliminate as much water as I can from
> >> my casein. Water is NEVER used at any point in my production—zero, zip,
> >> nada. It's bad enough that water is added when I combine it with dichromate
> >> just before printing.
> >>
> >> Peter J. Blackburn
> >>
> >>
> >> > From: zphoto at montana.net
> >> > Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 21:03:42 -0700
> >> > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org
> >> > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein
> >> >
> >> > Keith,
> >> > (armchair caseinist here) I got my stuff from Kremer today and it is
> >> very thick. Enos' recipe is very thin. Enos' is like as thin as half and
> >> half, maybe even a bit thinner. Kremer's is like thick honey. Do you think
> >> that might be why it seems not so much different than gum to you? It is so
> >> much thinner than gum in my experiments and also the look is different:
> >> matte-ish when exposed, developed, and dried, and holds a huge pigment load
> >> for being very thin. I guess that relates to the "sturdy" part. I am
> >> actually quite intrigued with it...
> >> > Maybe Peter can chime in with how thick his casein solution is that he
> >> prefers (e.g. using some descriptive term like pours like yogurt, or heavy
> >> cream, or skim milk, or half and half :))
> >> > Chris
> >> >
> >> > Christina Z. Anderson
> >> > christinaZanderson.com
> >> >
> >> > On Mar 4, 2011, at 1:34 PM, Keith Gerling wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > I've been exploring casein since this thread began. Here's a link to
> >> three
> >> > > prints:
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> https://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2088679&id=1173961982&l=fefc42482b
> >> > >
> >> > > I have to say that there is something almost "wrong" about being able
> >> to
> >> > > towel them off right out of the water. And the water does stink! I see
> >> > > absolutely NO difference between gum and casein in the finished print.
> >> > > Coating the emulsion is a little different than with gum. The casein
> >> > > emulsion is somewhat thicker than with gum, and as someone said, it
> >> can be
> >> > > tricky to get it smoothed out before it dries, so I've been using a
> >> dry
> >> > > brush to "buff" out the brushstrokes, a step that I seldom do with gum
> >> > > anymore. I guess you could say that one advantage is that I can
> >> actually
> >> > > brush another coat of casein emulsion over the top of a coat I've just
> >> > > applied but not yet exposed to light. Like when more density is
> >> required.
> >> > > Trying that with gum invariably causes the underlying layer to
> >> dissolve and
> >> > > lift.
> >> > >
> >> > > All in all, it is a pretty nice process. I cant see any compelling
> >> reason
> >> > > to switch from gum to casein, but I'm glad I tried it.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 3:59 PM, Christina Anderson <
> >> zphoto at montana.net>wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >> Thanks, Alberto and Peter, for the comments,
> >> > >>
> >> > >> When viewing Franklin's casein prints in person, it seemed the grain
> >> was
> >> > >> very fine, miniscule. The colors were brighter but still transparent.
> >> > >> Delicate is the word I would describe. And the layer looked very
> >> finely
> >> > >> grained and very thin. Ultra thin. No gloss anywhere like in a gum
> >> print. So
> >> > >> those were the differences I perceived in my lowly experience, only
> >> seeing a
> >> > >> handful of caseins in person.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Just think, Alberto, I will be able to see your caseins in person
> >> soon!
> >> > >> Chris
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Christina Z. Anderson
> >> > >> christinaZanderson.com
> >> > >>
> >> > >> On Feb 26, 2011, at 2:52 PM, Peter Blackburn wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Hello Alberto:
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> It's been my experience in gum/casein printing that how a print
> >> appears
> >> > >> does not necessarily have anything to do with just the
> >> vehicle/binder. Here
> >> > >> in North Texas we have recently formed an alternative processes group
> >> which
> >> > >> meets once a month—a wonderful and extremely talented group of
> >> artists I
> >> > >> must say. I have shown my gum and casein work together side-by-side
> >> and no
> >> > >> one has been able to tell them apart. They are, or can be,
> >> > >> indistinguishable— which my point to them and to you is that gum and
> >> casein
> >> > >> can be viewed as alternatives to each other. Both are saturated when
> >> I want
> >> > >> them so, and subdued when the imagery calls for it. It's all based on
> >> many
> >> > >> factors such as negative preparation, pigment choices, exposure,
> >> water bath
> >> > >> handling, etc, etc. The only caveat here is that after working with
> >> casein
> >> > >> for a long time, making it from powdered milk, then from dried
> >> casein, and
> >> > >> now, directly from cheese, I find the direct method makse a great
> >> difference
> >> > >> and is the best approach for my work.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> I still consider myself a dedicated gum printer and only resorted to
> >> > >> learning casein when several years back the weather did not cooperate
> >> for
> >> > >> gum printing for many weeks. Sometime in the near future I will blog
> >> about
> >> > >> that valuable experience and comment more on casein at
> >> > >> alternativephotography.com.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Well, the heavy overcast today prevented both gum and casein
> >> printing
> >> > >> here in the Dallas area. Cheers all!
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Peter J. Blackburn
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>> From: alt.list at albertonovo.it
> >> > >>>> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org
> >> > >>>> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 22:23:02 +0100
> >> > >>>> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>> Anyway, I do have a point to share in this email that may be of
> >> use to
> >> > >> the one or two casein printers in existence: has anyone tried this
> >> from
> >> > >> Kremer instead of making the somewhat laborious casein/ammonia
> >> mixture?
> >> > >> SInce it uses borax and is already in suspension, it would seem to be
> >> a
> >> > >> great substitution. But I'm the first to admit I am an armchair
> >> casein
> >> > >> printer, never having done it, and certainly would not make it my
> >> process of
> >> > >> choice because of my commitment to gum.
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>> I found the patent on casein as well. It is not 271 but patent
> >> > >> 2,716,061. 1955. Lupo. But two sources on the web said the process in
> >> fact
> >> > >> dated from 1908 and don't know about that.
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> Chris, I made some casein prints some years ago. I tried both
> >> casein
> >> > >> form
> >> > >>>> acidified powdered milk and from pure casein, dissolved in borax
> >> and in
> >> > >>>> ammonia. I deem the ammonia solution better than that in borax
> >> because
> >> > >> all
> >> > >>>> the excess of ammonia evaporates during drying.
> >> > >>>> In muy poor experience, I could define the look of gum and casein
> >> print
> >> > >> as:
> >> > >>>> gum:watercolor=casein:tempera
> >> > >>>> My casein prints are in the Rodolfo Namias Group site, but I have
> >> to say
> >> > >>>> that I was interested chiefly to apply the different behaviour of
> >> casein
> >> > >> vs.
> >> > >>>> gum arabic to a few specific images and one pigment.
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> As for the patent, I can add that there are lot of patents about
> >> using
> >> > >>>> alkaline casein and dichromate as a resist for the etching of TV
> >> color
> >> > >>>> screens, chiefly because casein is insoluble in acids. So, the
> >> > >> alkalinizing
> >> > >>>> agent (sodium hydroxyde, borax and ammonia), the ratios with
> >> dichromate,
> >> > >>>> etc. have benn well studied.
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> And finally, a member of Gruppo Namias tried casein print using my
> >> > >> detailed
> >> > >>>> notes, but he had very inconsistent results...
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> Alberto
> >> > >>>> www.grupponamias.com
> >> > >>>>
> >> www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group
> >> > >>>> _______________________________________________
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> >
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