[alt-photo] Re: sizing options for color gum

[Christina Anderson]

Hi Gordon,

I was going to not chime in here because Diana answered your question so well, but here goes:

I do now teach PVA because of toxicity issues, though I do not wildly prefer it as a size. In the classroom it is a GEM. Size and go. No toxicity, easy as pie, can easily size a piece and immediately print, etc. etc. so I agree with Marek and Diana. In fact, if I am not mistaken, Marek was the originator of suggesting this on this list. Thank you Marek. BTW I DO prefer it for casein, which seems to love plastic as it is a tenacious little bugger. I think PVA is the way to go on Rives, too, which is a soft, nicely absorbent paper.

Sizing with PVA makes the process of gum much less formidable to newcomers.

If it were a perfect world, my preferred sizing method is gelatin with 2.5% glut added (Maxicide brand) 6 ml to the liter. It's cheap, buy it from a medical supply house (do not add the additive), and it is hard as rocks and doesn't release bonds once it has hardened the paper...in other words, once it's in there, it doesn't leave the paper (Ryuji can explain this more scientifically).

However, living in MT the reality is that I can only use that effectively in my home in the warm months (ha, what's that). I prefer it for its feel, its adhesion feel, but toxicity is certainly an issue and as I work on the revision of one of my books, I am contemplating that issue in relation to all alt, including using such things as muriatic acid, sulfuric acid, hydrochloric acid, etc...when there are other equally good substances out there. I'll never give up my dichromate, but using less is definitely the way to go. But that is MY mindset, thinking about twenty-something students and how they handle things.

I do not use formalin though it is excellent as well, but even more problematic than glut in my environment (dry dry dry all the time, warm only July-Oct). In my environment if I bring paper inside, from a cool garage to a warm house, and shut the bathroom door and open the window even, it outgasses and stings my eyes. But I love it and I was taught on it! And it lasts forever. I love Kerik's formula of using it in drops in the sizing.

I never use glyoxal anymore after having yellowing, and contrary to what people think, though you can't smell it much, glyoxal is no less toxic than formalin or glut. Lots don't get the yellowing. I happen to think it is paper-specific but also in a great email that Marek shared years ago, he found we were all using too much hardener of both gly and glut and had an idea for how much was enough. My supposition is glut will also yellow if too much is added or if an alkali is added or if water is alkaline, something I will test this summer. Here I am on well water.

Gordon, it is funny you should ask this question now as I finished up last night at 11 my last foray into the 60,000 alt list messages from 1994-2005...took 100 hours so whenever anyone tells someone to "search the archives" and you really want to do a major search, be prepared. In fact, I think it is NOT the answer to give newbie questions. The archive is vast, and so much excellent sharing was in the early years even with the fighting. Oddly enough, before digital became the norm. There is so much digital stuff in there that quickly becomes obsolete, so it is like delete, delete, delete. 

I have saved about 4000 messages of the 60,000 that apply to my needs. And, sorry to say, even with all the posting about Fresson throughout the list, no secrets have yet been discovered :).

Chris



Christina Z. Anderson
christinaZanderson.com

On Jan 16, 2012, at 7:17 AM, Marek Matusz wrote:

> 
> Gord,
> After such an excellent endorsment from Diana there is little to add, other then it seems too good to be true and people are reluctant to try. Well, it is off the shelf, no toxic chemicals, easy to apply (I use 1:1 ot 1:2 depending on the paper). I would also apply a second coat, usually 1:2 if I want 4th, or more layers. Here is another neat observation. I was strictly Fabriano hot press user for my gums, but with PVAc I tried some other papers. BFK Rives woks even better for me. Strane thing, it is a much rougher surface then Fabriano and you would think that it would result in a duller print, but the contrary is true. In a side by side printing session I get mre brilliant prints with deeper colour on BFK. The paper also does not curl as much.
> Marek
> 
> 
>> From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net
>> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org
>> Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2012 17:07:06 -0500
>> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: sizing options for color gum
>> 
>> Hey Gord,
>> 
>> I started out with the gelatin and glyoxal, and while I never had an 
>> issue with the actual coating-- all went on seemingly smoothly--I 
>> would still get staining in some areas-- despite using "non-staining" 
>> pigments. I used both Rives BFK and Fabriano Artistico papers. I 
>> then switched to gluteraldehyde and coated outside. In the beginning, 
>> I thought there might be a difference (in a good way), but the more I 
>> used it, the more it seemed to just be more of the same-- except, you 
>> know, more toxic. I honestly didn't see the point. And a couple of 
>> times things came out sort of yellow (probably from using maybe too 
>> much glut?).
>> 
>> Then it was Paul -- and maybe Jim Latimer, too?-- not sure-- talked 
>> about using Gamblin PVA-- and wow-- what a difference. I also only 
>> use it on Fabriano soft-press (haven't tried it on Rives BFK), but it 
>> works like a charm. I use only one coat (put on AFTER the first coat, 
>> where I use only the paper's internal sizing), and then I put just a 
>> thin coat on, which leaves maybe a very slight sheen-- if anything-- 
>> and that one coat seems to last for as long as I need it-- multiple 
>> layers, for sure.
>> 
>> As I'm sure I've said before, I don't dilute it, and I get absolutely 
>> no shine or gloss from it, and it does what it's supposed to do. I 
>> did, however make a very large print recently, and I found it a little 
>> more challenging to put a thin PVA layer on such a large print-- so I 
>> did end up with a shine then. So for prints that large (20x20 is 
>> large for me), I do now dilute it 1:1.
>> 
>> I know you're already aware of all this, and this isn't specifically 
>> what you asked-- but I also recently printed an image on Fabriano 
>> soft-press without sizing all, using what was only in the paper. It 
>> did really well, though I felt the third coat wasn't as "clean" as I 
>> would have preferred-- so I just went back to using the PVA. I just 
>> know for sure, using that, that I won't have a problem.
>> 
>> Anyway . . . I'm not sure why people are so reluctant to use the PVA. 
>> I often get the sense here that if it's "too easy and works just 
>> fine," then it can't be right. Something's wrong. I cannot imagine 
>> going back to using anything else, other than PVA, though. I also 
>> tried gesso at one point, but I could never dilute it enough to where 
>> it would work properly.
>> 
>> What is maidstone paper?
>> 
>> Diana
>> 
>> On Jan 15, 2012, at 4:39 PM, Gordon J. Holtslander wrote:
>> 
>>> I'm starting to work with gum printing again. I want to start doing 
>>> color gum from digital negatives. My previous gum work was all from 
>>> very large format pinhole negatives. I've been using Maidstone 
>>> paper. It worked well with my pinhole negatives.
>>> 
>>> There are a more sizing and hardening options than when I was doing 
>>> gum. I used grocery store knox, hardened chrome alum. I used to 
>>> coat my paper with gum and then soak in chrome alum to harden.
>>> 
>>> Does higher bloom gelatine make a difference in sizing?
>>> 
>>> I can't use formalin because I am allergic to formaldehyde, and 
>>> won't use glyoxal for the same reason.
>>> 
>>> The new options are Gamblin PVA and gluteraldehyde. I'm prepared to 
>>> make a "fume hood" in my darkroom to deal with gluteralehyde fumes - 
>>> I believe its too cold in Saskatoon, SK to size and dry outside in 
>>> the winter. Is gluteraldehyde worth the effort or should I use 
>>> Gamblin PVA or chrome alum?
>>> 
>>> What are peoples experience with sizing? I've done some 
>>> preliminary work with Gamblin PVA - it looks promising. I tried 
>>> undiluted GAmblin - but it was way to glossy. 2:1 Gamblin appearw 
>>> workable.
>>> 
>>> Anyone using something different than PVA or hardened Gelatin?
>>> 
>>> Gord
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Gordon J. Holtslander
>>> gjh at shaw.ca
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo
>> 
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