[alt-photo] Re: Ultra Long Exposure Reciprocity Failure?

Diana Bloomfield dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net
Fri Jan 20 16:20:52 GMT 2012 

Okay, yeah- I'm thinking the people I know who have done long  
exposures like that-- it's been with paper, not film.   I think the  
longest I've ever done an exposure, on film, was ~36 hours.  That was  
inside and light changed drastically, including total darkness-- After  
a certain point, it didn't make any difference-- and the images  
weren't overexposed either.  Strange.   That's the extent of my  
knowledge on the subject. :)

Diana
On Jan 20, 2012, at 11:11 AM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote:

> Hi Diana,
>
> We're on the same page. I know that week and month long exposures  
> can and
> have been done but to my knowledge this is mostly done in pinhole  
> cameras
> with paper rather then film. I'm particularly interested in how film
> reciprocity behaves at such long exposures. The Osterman's did  
> indeed have
> their show and the work was related to what I'm doing. In reality  
> they were
> doing something more closely related to whats typically done with
> solargraphy i.e. long exposures which print out the paper which is  
> then
> immediately scanned (only one chance to so this because the scanning  
> light
> further exposes the image) and then the rest of the process is  
> completed
> digitally. I'm clear on how that particular process works. I'm curious
> about making super long exposures on film and dealing with the  
> reciprocity
> thats involved.
>
> -Francesco
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 8:47 AM, Diana Bloomfield <
> dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>> Hey Francesco,
>>
>> Maybe I'm still not clear on what you're asking, but I know they're  
>> have
>> been a lot of pinhole photographers who have set cameras out for  
>> weeks and
>> months at a time.  Greg Kemp, for one, has done that-- months long
>> exposures-- don't know if he used film or paper, though.  I'm sure  
>> there
>> are plenty of others out there (mostly pinhole photographers that I  
>> know
>> of) who could give you their experience.  Somebody here might have  
>> Greg's
>> current email address, too.  The last time I wrote to him, the old  
>> email I
>> had bounced back.  (And didn't the Ostermans just have their show  
>> at Tilt,
>> from Lacock Abbey, where they had their cameras out for a long  
>> period of
>> time (weeks?), or am I mistaken??
>>
>> Diana
>>
>> On Jan 20, 2012, at 9:49 AM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote:
>>
>>  Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the information and insight. I wanted to offer a quick
>>> clarification so that everyone is on the same page as I am when I  
>>> say
>>> "ultra long exposures". I'm talking about exposures well beyond  
>>> hours. I'm
>>> referring to exposures in the duration of weeks, month, and even  
>>> years.
>>> The
>>> extreme nature of such exposures is what led me to believe that  
>>> there may
>>> be a possibility that reciprocity failure behaves differently or  
>>> becomes
>>> irrelevant entirely with such long exposures. I've done pinhole  
>>> exposures
>>> and lensed long exposures into the hours before without much problem
>>> (mainly based on the times that others have provided or basic  
>>> guesswork
>>> based on manufacturer datasheet info) but I'm talking about going  
>>> into a
>>> whole different realm of long exposure.
>>>
>>> Michael Wesely's work work documenting urban development such as the
>>> re-building of the MOMA building in NY were indeed ultra long  
>>> exposures
>>> and
>>> not time lapse. The MOMA images were 34 month exposures through 4  
>>> pinhole
>>> cameras. MOMA invited him to do this project and authorized  
>>> designated
>>> areas for his cameras so that they could be insured the cameras  
>>> would not
>>> be disturbed during the ultra long exposures. In some of the  
>>> images where
>>> the sky is visible you can see the progression of the sun. These  
>>> images
>>> would in fact be considered Solargraphs on film I suppose. The  
>>> progression
>>> of the sun's path is continuous and you can see the changes in  
>>> season as
>>> well as when weather was clear vs overcast. It is textbook  
>>> Solargraphy.
>>> Other images do not include a view of the sun and this confirms  
>>> that such
>>> long exposures can be made without view of the sun. Remember, in my
>>> original post I was wondering if the extreme brightness of the sun  
>>> played
>>> some role in the exposure of paper in Solargraphy. Wesely is using  
>>> film I
>>> believe but I haven't been able to confirm that. He might have  
>>> used paper
>>> which would have made reciprocity irrelevant but the images look  
>>> more like
>>> film then paper to me.
>>>
>>> -Francesco Fragomeni
>>> www.francescofragomeni.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 5:46 AM, Diana Bloomfield <
>>> dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>  Francesco,
>>>>
>>>> I've only used very long exposures with pinhole cameras as well.   
>>>> Of
>>>> course, there are published reciprocity charts out there.  (Check  
>>>> Eric
>>>> Renner's 'Pinhole Photography: Rediscovering a Historic  
>>>> Technique').
>>>> Although his published charts include only pinhole F-stops, I  
>>>> still think
>>>> you could glean something from them.  And I do think that the  
>>>> information
>>>> that comes with film (or used to?) is fairly accurate-- at least  
>>>> for me.
>>>>
>>>> But from my experience, I agree with Gord here that some films  
>>>> "don't
>>>> seem
>>>> to vary significantly past a certain duration of exposure."  That's
>>>> certainly been my experience (and not just with this high  
>>>> contrast film).
>>>>
>>>> I will also add that the published reciprocity charts I used  
>>>> never seemed
>>>> to offer all that much help to me.  I typically base my long  
>>>> exposures on
>>>> the type of film, the type of (pinhole) camera I'm using, and the
>>>> available
>>>> light-- basically calculated guesswork, erring on the side of
>>>> over-exposure.  (Quite scientific!).  But with the right  
>>>> development,  I
>>>> never seemed to have a problem.
>>>>
>>>> Diana
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 19, 2012, at 11:53 PM, Gordon J. Holtslander wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I can't offer any mathematical insights,  however the pinhole  
>>>> camera on
>>>>
>>>>> film work I have done usually involves long exposures.
>>>>>
>>>>> I started doing pinhole work with large format high contrast  
>>>>> contact
>>>>> printing film and processed it with Dave Soemarko's LC1  
>>>>> developer mixed
>>>>> to
>>>>> minimize contrast in order to get a continuous tone negative.
>>>>>
>>>>> When used with this developer the film has an effective ASA of  
>>>>> 1.  Shots
>>>>> taken outside on a cloudy day would need an exposure of 1/2  
>>>>> hour.  I
>>>>> also
>>>>> took a series of indoor photos where the exposure time as in the  
>>>>> range
>>>>> of 6
>>>>> to 8 hours.  As long as I metered accurately my exposures were
>>>>> consistent
>>>>> regardless of the exposure time - from 15 minutes in full sun to  
>>>>> 8 hours
>>>>> inside.
>>>>>
>>>>> Used in this way the film (at the time Kodak CGP) did not seem to
>>>>> exhibit
>>>>> any reciprocity failure, or perhaps the reciprocity failure did  
>>>>> not
>>>>> vary in
>>>>> the range of exposure I was working with.
>>>>>
>>>>> My point is that perhaps with extremely long exposures the  
>>>>> sensitivity
>>>>> of
>>>>> this film is consistent, and does not vary significantly past a  
>>>>> certain
>>>>> duration of exposure.
>>>>>
>>>>> It was possible to get reciprocity compensation data for certain  
>>>>> film. I
>>>>> don't think is was calculated, but done by empirical testing of  
>>>>> each
>>>>> type
>>>>> of film.
>>>>>
>>>>> Try doing some empirical testing and see if your film shows a
>>>>> continually
>>>>> increase in reciprocity failure, or if it stops or decreases  
>>>>> after a
>>>>> certain.
>>>>>
>>>>> Photograph a grey scale in dim conditions and increase the  
>>>>> exposure time
>>>>> and see what effect it has.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also read that when electronic flashes were first used, some  
>>>>> films
>>>>> suffered from reciprocity failure due to extremely short  
>>>>> exposure times.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gord
>>>>>
>>>>>
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