From zphoto at montana.net Mon Jul 2 17:43:20 2012 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 11:43:20 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Ernest Theisen Message-ID: Does anyone know if Ernie is still around? His email seems not to work on his website. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com From jacqueskv at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 21:01:03 2012 From: jacqueskv at gmail.com (Jacques Kevers) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 23:01:03 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Ernest Theisen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Christina, I haven't heard from him since ages... All I know is that he still has a facebook account. Most recent mentions on his wall are from Nov. 2011, though. http://www.facebook.com/ernest.theisen Best regards, Jacques 2012/7/2 Christina Anderson > > Does anyone know if Ernie is still around? His email seems not to work on > his website. > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From zphoto at montana.net Mon Jul 2 21:06:48 2012 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 15:06:48 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Ernest Theisen In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: PERFECT. Thank you, Jacques! Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Jul 2, 2012, at 3:01 PM, Jacques Kevers wrote: > Christina, > I haven't heard from him since ages... > All I know is that he still has a facebook account. Most recent mentions on > his wall are from Nov. 2011, though. > http://www.facebook.com/ernest.theisen > > Best regards, > Jacques > > 2012/7/2 Christina Anderson > >> >> Does anyone know if Ernie is still around? His email seems not to work on >> his website. >> Chris >> >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Tue Jul 3 03:51:11 2012 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2012 21:51:11 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] canson universal sketch/crob art Message-ID: <682BAEA3-37E5-4CFE-B5D7-0688F853D4E8@montana.net> I got my Daniel Smith summer sale catalog today and noticed that they are offering a buy one get one free special on the Universal Sketch 9x12 here: http://www.danielsmith.com/Item--i-159-901-002 200 sheets total for $8.43 is a pretty darn good price and this paper is great with cyanotype. Thin but quite sturdy. Papers and pigments are on sale, too, but with Daniel Smith I always have to double check against, say, Jerry's Artarama because Jerry's is the cheapest place I have found for Fabriano Artistico Extra White. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com From evan at evanhughes.org Thu Jul 5 17:01:04 2012 From: evan at evanhughes.org (Evan J Hughes) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2012 18:01:04 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Paper Message-ID: <4FF5C850.6000500@evanhughes.org> A quick note for gummists and carbon printers (in the UK in particular), I have just bought some paper at a very good price. Chromacolour UK has a sale on at the moment on a small (but useful) range of their paper. I have just stocked up on Saunders Waterford (http://www.chromacolour.co.uk/store/artist_saunders.php) but they also have others that may be of interest. Best regards, Evan PS, I have no connections with Chromacolour, I just happened to stumble across the offer and though it may interest others as the paper works out to be a very good deal, even with delivery costs. -- http://www.concretebanana.co.uk http://blog.concretebanana.co.uk From heliograf0710 at gmail.com Fri Jul 6 07:49:31 2012 From: heliograf0710 at gmail.com (Harald Leban) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 09:49:31 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Harald Leban /back on "the list" Message-ID: Hello everybody, after years I decided to join this list "the list" again to look for some news, some well known names and also new fellows of the "real" photographic processes. I was part of it from the beginning ,nearly 20 years ago, and got so much good information from such precious friends, I hope some of you are still here. Now that my children are "out of the house", I have more headroom for this, my passion - the photographic craftmanship ( I simply call it heliography). It was in the 90ths when I started with platinum printing and other ferric processes. It was the time when I "constructed" the ABC+Pyro formula for alt-printing negatives (aka Rollo Pyro). I hope some of you still find it helpful for their work. I know that in the meantime the digital way of making enlarged negatives is prior but nothing can beat a well done 8x10"++ pyro neg. In the past years I opened my mind more for the photomechanic process, heliograv?re, photogravure etc.. It?s now my primary activity to find the right perfection to handle these processes-together with a project in instant photography (Polaroid/Fuji) where I try to isolate the "latent" negatives from the filmpack and use it for alternative work, too. I hope there is still enough creative and enthusiastic power in this list, I will do my best to keep it. allthebest Harald Harald Leban Hainburg/Austria From C.Breukel at lumc.nl Fri Jul 6 08:36:42 2012 From: C.Breukel at lumc.nl (C.Breukel at lumc.nl) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 08:36:42 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Harald Leban /back on "the list" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A724126E34@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern> Welcome back, Harald ! I for sure remember you! I have been using your ABC+ Pyro formula in the past in a Jobo. I have to admit though that I switched to PyrocatHD later because it gave a much lower B+F in my hands. I also abandoned PyrocatHD for plain Xtol. My work routine was to process my 8*10 negatives in a Pyro developer so it could both function as a negative for silver gelatin and alt printing such as Pt. Somehow this did not work as I wanted; it stayed a bit of a compromise. Also developing in Pyro is finicky in my hands, sometimes I got strange streaks etc. Lately I just process my 8*10 in Xtol, and than sometimes decide I would like to print that image in say Pt I will bleach the negative and re-develop in Pyro. This works quite nice. I am not into heliogravure (occasionally mainly Pt sometimes gum and wet plate collodion), but I do know that there are practitioners on then list, Good luck & best, Cor > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt- > photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Harald > Leban > Sent: vrijdag 6 juli 2012 9:50 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] Harald Leban /back on "the list" > > Hello everybody, > after years I decided to join this list "the list" again to look for some > news, some well known names and also new fellows of the "real" > photographic processes. I was part of it from the beginning ,nearly 20 > years ago, and got so much good information from such precious friends, I > hope some of you are still here. > Now that my children are "out of the house", I have more headroom for > this, > my passion - the photographic craftmanship ( I simply call it > heliography). > It was in the 90ths when I started with platinum printing and other ferric > processes. It was the time when I "constructed" the ABC+Pyro formula for > alt-printing negatives (aka Rollo Pyro). I hope some of you still find it > helpful for their work. > I know that in the meantime the digital way of making enlarged negatives > is prior but nothing can beat a well done 8x10"++ pyro neg. > > In the past years I opened my mind more for the photomechanic process, > heliograv?re, photogravure etc.. > It?s now my primary activity to find the right perfection to handle these > processes-together with a project in instant photography (Polaroid/Fuji) > where I try to isolate the "latent" negatives from the filmpack and use it > for alternative work, too. > > I hope there is still enough creative and enthusiastic power in this list, > I will do my best to keep it. > > allthebest > > Harald > > > Harald Leban > Hainburg/Austria > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Mon Jul 9 15:30:07 2012 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 11:30:07 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] casein history Message-ID: Dear Casein Printers, I hope this is OK to ask on the list. I am interested in some historical information for a casein timeline. Where did you first read about it? What year? Who taught you? Are you continuing to do the process? I know there are a few of you out there. Peter Blackburn, I think you said you read Langford's book. What year was that and where? Even if you just tried it and abandoned it, that's fine. If you want to email me offlist because this isn't a list convo, that's fine, too. I'm just trying to get a sense of its more modern presence. Also, Marek, you were talking about Fresson maybe containing casein. The amount of casein/gelatin I have come across is 10-30% casein to gelatin. Have you tried it yet? Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com From keith.gerling at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 15:53:22 2012 From: keith.gerling at gmail.com (Keith Gerling) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 10:53:22 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I first became aware of the process when I saw the work Lukas Werth did of Pakistan, I think in Judy's Post Factory Journal. Became more curious when Loris talked about it here. Tried it, liked it, and I still use it. Keith On Mon, Jul 9, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Christina Anderson wrote: > Dear Casein Printers, > > I hope this is OK to ask on the list. > > I am interested in some historical information for a casein timeline. > > Where did you first read about it? What year? Who taught you? Are you > continuing to do the process? > > I know there are a few of you out there. Peter Blackburn, I think you said > you read Langford's book. What year was that and where? > > Even if you just tried it and abandoned it, that's fine. > > If you want to email me offlist because this isn't a list convo, that's > fine, too. > > I'm just trying to get a sense of its more modern presence. > > Also, Marek, you were talking about Fresson maybe containing casein. The > amount of casein/gelatin I have come across is 10-30% casein to gelatin. > Have you tried it yet? > > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From smieglitz at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 16:32:49 2012 From: smieglitz at gmail.com (Joseph Smigiel) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 12:32:49 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: FWIW, I first heard about casein from Ernie Theisen back around 1997. At that time I hosted a website entitled "Alternative Photographic Processes" on AOL. Some of Ernie's bromoil and casein work was uploaded to that website along with work done in other processes from list folks like Peter Fredrick (fotempura) , Gene Laughter (bromoil), Karl Koenig (gumoil), (Mark Sink (cyanotype), as well as a few others. Ernie emailed a recipe and some links about casein bichromate to me and I tried it out about that time. I liked the process because exposures were shorter than gum, but that also meant I needed to recalibrate everything. Since I did not know of any sanctioned pigment-stain test for casein, I put the process aside and never looked back. Joe On Jul 9, 2012, at 11:30 AM, Christina Anderson wrote: > Dear Casein Printers, > > I hope this is OK to ask on the list. > > I am interested in some historical information for a casein timeline. > > Where did you first read about it? What year? Who taught you? Are you continuing to do the process? > > I know there are a few of you out there. Peter Blackburn, I think you said you read Langford's book. What year was that and where? > > Even if you just tried it and abandoned it, that's fine. > > If you want to email me offlist because this isn't a list convo, that's fine, too. > > I'm just trying to get a sense of its more modern presence. > > Also, Marek, you were talking about Fresson maybe containing casein. The amount of casein/gelatin I have come across is 10-30% casein to gelatin. Have you tried it yet? > > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From blackburnap at hotmail.com Tue Jul 10 13:39:07 2012 From: blackburnap at hotmail.com (Peter Blackburn) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 08:39:07 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I learned about casein from Langford's book back in 1988 and started working with it immediately but was never satisfied with my results from that "recipe." It wasn't until AKD sizing appeared in art papers in the late 1990s and the web matured enough to make finding information easier that I explored casein from other perspectives. It was in 2004 that I finally hit on the casein mixture that I still use today with great relish. By the way, I'll be officially announcing here in a few days (as soon as the gallery has a link ready) an alternative photographic print exhibition to start here in Dallas starting July 21. It is a group exhibition featuring nine artists of which I am one. I'll have three tricolor casein prints and one tricolor gum bichromate print in the show. My understanding is that this same show will continue on later this year at the Visual Arts Center in Starkville, MS during the same time as the SPE conference. More later. Cheers to all! Peter J. Blackburn > From: zphoto at montana.net > Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 11:30:07 -0400 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] casein history > > Dear Casein Printers, > > I hope this is OK to ask on the list. > > I am interested in some historical information for a casein timeline. > > Where did you first read about it? What year? Who taught you? Are you continuing to do the process? > > I know there are a few of you out there. Peter Blackburn, I think you said you read Langford's book. What year was that and where? > > Even if you just tried it and abandoned it, that's fine. > > If you want to email me offlist because this isn't a list convo, that's fine, too. > > I'm just trying to get a sense of its more modern presence. > > Also, Marek, you were talking about Fresson maybe containing casein. The amount of casein/gelatin I have come across is 10-30% casein to gelatin. Have you tried it yet? > > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Tue Jul 10 14:01:47 2012 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 10:01:47 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95DF8A14-283D-44E8-9205-9FCF2F502680@montana.net> Thanks, Peter, Joe, and Keith. Not many doing casein. Hmmm.. There used to be a Rosae Reeder, a Guido Ceppens on the list, and another, I think, Charles Greiner, but it seems only a handful still. I'm on spotty internet here, a connection from somewhere in the neighborhood ethers and not in my house, so if I take long to answer that's why. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Jul 10, 2012, at 9:39 AM, Peter Blackburn wrote: > > I learned about casein from Langford's book back in 1988 and started working with it immediately but was never satisfied with my results from that "recipe." It wasn't until AKD sizing appeared in art papers in the late 1990s and the web matured enough to make finding information easier that I explored casein from other perspectives. It was in 2004 that I finally hit on the casein mixture that I still use today with great relish. By the way, I'll be officially announcing here in a few days (as soon as the gallery has a link ready) an alternative photographic print exhibition to start here in Dallas starting July 21. It is a group exhibition featuring nine artists of which I am one. I'll have three tricolor casein prints and one tricolor gum bichromate print in the show. My understanding is that this same show will continue on later this year at the Visual Arts Center in Starkville, MS during the same time as the SPE conference. More later. Cheers to all! Peter J. Blackburn >> From: zphoto at montana.net >> Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2012 11:30:07 -0400 >> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >> Subject: [alt-photo] casein history >> >> Dear Casein Printers, >> >> I hope this is OK to ask on the list. >> >> I am interested in some historical information for a casein timeline. >> >> Where did you first read about it? What year? Who taught you? Are you continuing to do the process? >> >> I know there are a few of you out there. Peter Blackburn, I think you said you read Langford's book. What year was that and where? >> >> Even if you just tried it and abandoned it, that's fine. >> >> If you want to email me offlist because this isn't a list convo, that's fine, too. >> >> I'm just trying to get a sense of its more modern presence. >> >> Also, Marek, you were talking about Fresson maybe containing casein. The amount of casein/gelatin I have come across is 10-30% casein to gelatin. Have you tried it yet? >> >> Chris >> >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From altguido at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 14:41:36 2012 From: altguido at gmail.com (Guido Ceuppens) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 16:41:36 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: <95DF8A14-283D-44E8-9205-9FCF2F502680@montana.net> References: <95DF8A14-283D-44E8-9205-9FCF2F502680@montana.net> Message-ID: I also learned about casein printing in the Post Factory Journal. About the same time (I think) there was some list activity about the "temperaprint" method. As I did not like the smell of the fried eggs I finally combined casein with the temperaprint technique of using acrylic paints to get (very) contrasty and colorful prints. Am still doing it today, straight gum prints every now and then. Casein is so much simpler! Greetings from Belgium, Guido Ceuppens www.guidoceuppens.be From zphoto at montana.net Tue Jul 10 14:50:57 2012 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 10:50:57 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: References: <95DF8A14-283D-44E8-9205-9FCF2F502680@montana.net> Message-ID: GUIDO you are still on the list!!!! YAY!! Yes, I dug up your formula on the alt list from 2009. Thanks for posting and now I'm going to check out your prints online if my connection stays on... Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Jul 10, 2012, at 10:41 AM, Guido Ceuppens wrote: > I also learned about casein printing in the Post Factory Journal. > About the same time (I think) there was some list activity about the > "temperaprint" method. As I did not like the smell of the fried eggs I > finally combined casein with the temperaprint technique of using > acrylic paints to get (very) contrasty and colorful prints. Am still > doing it today, straight gum prints every now and then. Casein is so > much simpler! > > Greetings from Belgium, > Guido Ceuppens > > www.guidoceuppens.be > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From altguido at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 15:07:34 2012 From: altguido at gmail.com (Guido Ceuppens) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 17:07:34 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: References: <95DF8A14-283D-44E8-9205-9FCF2F502680@montana.net> Message-ID: Christina, Still following up on the list, I learned soooo much from it! Another, very simple way to dissolve the powdered casein (Kremer): 5 grams of casein powder, add 35 ml water, stir a bit to avoid lumps and add 1 ml ammonia (household). Is immediately ready to be used and does not smell to much to ammonia, keeps at least 3/4 days. Best, Guido 2012/7/10 Christina Anderson : > GUIDO you are still on the list!!!! YAY!! Yes, I dug up your formula on the alt list from 2009. From zphoto at montana.net Tue Jul 10 15:19:34 2012 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 11:19:34 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: References: <95DF8A14-283D-44E8-9205-9FCF2F502680@montana.net> Message-ID: What an easy formula, Guido. I see it is about a 14% solution. Do you combine that equally with dichromate? Are you still using acrylic colors in the mix or powdered pigments? Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Jul 10, 2012, at 11:07 AM, Guido Ceuppens wrote: > Christina, > Still following up on the list, I learned soooo much from it! > Another, very simple way to dissolve the powdered casein (Kremer): > 5 grams of casein powder, add 35 ml water, stir a bit to avoid lumps > and add 1 ml ammonia (household). > Is immediately ready to be used and does not smell to much to ammonia, > keeps at least 3/4 days. > Best, > Guido > > > > 2012/7/10 Christina Anderson : >> GUIDO you are still on the list!!!! YAY!! Yes, I dug up your formula on the alt list from 2009. > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From altguido at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 15:38:27 2012 From: altguido at gmail.com (Guido Ceuppens) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 17:38:27 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: References: <95DF8A14-283D-44E8-9205-9FCF2F502680@montana.net> Message-ID: I use 1 part casein/paint + 1 part saturated Pot Dichromate. I use acrylic colors as well as powdered pigments in a "heavy" mix and do not bother about transparency of the colors, I like (at least at this moment) very colorful and saturated images, development is sometimes carefully but most of the time very vigorously with brush or even sponges. Guido 2012/7/10 Christina Anderson : > What an easy formula, Guido. I see it is about a 14% solution. Do you combine that equally with dichromate? Are you still using acrylic colors in the mix or powdered pigments? From zphoto at montana.net Tue Jul 10 16:03:56 2012 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2012 12:03:56 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: References: <95DF8A14-283D-44E8-9205-9FCF2F502680@montana.net> Message-ID: <914D8713-DC1D-432D-AB6F-0F4484DB15E6@montana.net> Has anyone tried this formula, the ferric/casein one? It is the Gateau patent. Kees? I notice no mention of hydrogen peroxide in the developing bath in this. My words, below, not a quote of the patent but refers to a discussion in the BJP. The formula consisted of 5g casein in 75ml water + 2ml ammonia. Into this is added 2.5g ferric ammonium citrate and pigment. The print is exposed as normal. The paper is described as more sensitive with better keeping properties. Its drawback was the need for chemicals in the development water (ammonia, sodium carbonate, potassium oxalate), unlike regular carbon tissue. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Jul 10, 2012, at 11:38 AM, Guido Ceuppens wrote: > I use 1 part casein/paint + 1 part saturated Pot Dichromate. I use > acrylic colors as well as powdered pigments in a "heavy" mix and do > not bother about transparency of the colors, I like (at least at this > moment) very colorful and saturated images, development is sometimes > carefully but most of the time very vigorously with brush or even > sponges. > Guido > > 2012/7/10 Christina Anderson : >> What an easy formula, Guido. I see it is about a 14% solution. Do you combine that equally with dichromate? Are you still using acrylic colors in the mix or powdered pigments? > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From workshops at polychrome.nl Wed Jul 11 19:05:27 2012 From: workshops at polychrome.nl (Kees Brandenburg) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2012 21:05:27 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: <914D8713-DC1D-432D-AB6F-0F4484DB15E6@montana.net> References: <95DF8A14-283D-44E8-9205-9FCF2F502680@montana.net> <914D8713-DC1D-432D-AB6F-0F4484DB15E6@montana.net> Message-ID: <5903E1B6-2DCA-4EFD-8E74-A09245FEDC96@polychrome.nl> On 10 jul. 2012, at 18:03, Christina Anderson wrote: > Has anyone tried this formula, the ferric/casein one? It is the Gateau patent. Kees? > > I notice no mention of hydrogen peroxide in the developing bath in this. I only tried the peroxide version. -k From alt.list at albertonovo.it Thu Jul 12 05:33:56 2012 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 07:33:56 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120712053356.24496.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> Chris, > Where did you first read about it? What year? Who taught you? Are you continuing to do the process? A complicated question because I am not able to remember a definite year. For sure I was aware of this process (chiefly from Theisen website, more or less in 2002) before reading the article on P.F., but I was not interested until I decided to print one-shot gum bichromate and it had been then that I remembered Werth's notes on P.F. After, I looked at some patents to see also how industry managed the dissolution of casein for screen etching. Alberto www.grupponamias.com www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group From peteralan.photography at btinternet.com Thu Jul 12 10:16:50 2012 From: peteralan.photography at btinternet.com (peteralan photography) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2012 11:16:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: [alt-photo] Any interest in forming London/South-East England photogravure practitioners group? In-Reply-To: <20120712053356.24496.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> References: <20120712053356.24496.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> Message-ID: <1342088210.29077.YahooMailNeo@web87903.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Hallo I'm a London based gravurist with experience with both polymer and copper-plate. Are there any other UK gravurists out there interested in conversations and occasional meetings to share practice and admire (or otherwise) each others' work, and generally to promote the craft? If so, perhaps you might contact me off list at peteralan.photography(at)btinternet.com regards Peter Moseley From heliograf0710 at gmail.com Fri Jul 13 05:25:29 2012 From: heliograf0710 at gmail.com (Harald Leban) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 07:25:29 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Any interest in forming London/South-East England photogravure practitioners group? In-Reply-To: <1342088210.29077.YahooMailNeo@web87903.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <20120712053356.24496.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> <1342088210.29077.YahooMailNeo@web87903.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Peter, I?m an Austrian based heliograf and very interested in the topic you mentioned. My main work in the past was on ferric and carbon processes. Since longer time I built up my knowledge on photomechanic processes. It took me years for searching,exploring and understanding the processes and parameters. For me it?s always necessary to understand and "touch" a technique when I want to use it. I got lots of information from the books of Josef Maria Eder, a former scientist and inventor from Vienna. I always try to make my own tools, producing my own line of Pt/Pd chemistry,carbon tissue and etching tissue - as a biochemist by profession I?ve learned to work out standards for "repeated success". I?m always interested in conversations about heliogravure and sharing ideas and knowledge about. I hope our distance is not a big probleme but in fact ideas, feelings and dreams don?t know any distances... allthebest Harald Leban Austria short profile: http://www.faps.sk/f_index.php?idmember=7 2012/7/12 peteralan photography > Hallo > I'm a London based gravurist with experience with both polymer and > copper-plate. Are there any other UK gravurists out there interested in > conversations and occasional meetings to share practice and admire (or > otherwise) each others' work, and generally to promote the craft? > If so, perhaps you might contact me off list at peteralan.photography(at) > btinternet.com > > regards > Peter Moseley > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Fri Jul 13 16:58:57 2012 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 16:58:57 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chris,I have not tried this approach yet, my bag of sawdust went missing. On the other hand I have been making some prints, mostly monochrome for about a year now. I have also made some prints from the one year old casein solutiojn, actually it was more then a year old. Works just fine. It is interesting that the first solution that I ever made turned to be the best recipe.Another interesting tidbit is that I have exposed and developed one day old paper checking for the signs of dark reaction and found none. There is one more piece from that batch that I will let sit for perhaps another day or two before exposing and developing. As to your other questions I read the PF article years back, but did not think of it much at the time (in terms of my own interest). I only got interested in it last year with the posts on the list. > > Also, Marek, you were talking about Fresson maybe containing casein. The amount of casein/gelatin I have come across is 10-30% casein to gelatin. Have you tried it yet? > > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 14 01:25:15 2012 From: pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca (Peter Friedrichsen) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 21:25:15 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Marek, From what I understand, the dichromates shift to chromates as they are made more alkaline (from your ammonia) and these salts are less reactive especially in the higher pH. That may explain the lessened dark reaction. Peter Friedrichsen At 12:58 PM 13/07/2012, you wrote: >Chris,I have not tried this approach yet, my bag of sawdust went >missing. On the other hand I have been making some prints, mostly >monochrome for about a year now. I have also made some prints from >the one year old casein solutiojn, actually it was more then a year >old. Works just fine. It is interesting that the first solution that >I ever made turned to be the best recipe.Another interesting tidbit >is that I have exposed and developed one day old paper checking for >the signs of dark reaction and found none. There is one more piece >from that batch that I will let sit for perhaps another day or two >before exposing and developing. As to your other questions I read >the PF article years back, but did not think of it much at the time >(in terms of my own interest). I only got interested in it last year >with the posts on the list. > > > > > Also, Marek, you were talking about Fresson maybe containing > casein. The amount of casein/gelatin I have come across is 10-30% > casein to gelatin. Have you tried it yet? > > > > Chris > > > > Christina Z. Anderson > > christinaZanderson.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > >_______________________________________________ >Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Sat Jul 14 14:06:18 2012 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 10:06:18 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45E169FA-3210-41F6-B422-856B942C3965@montana.net> Hi Marek, Good points, that a year old casein is fine and little dark reaction in your neck of the woods which I assume is HOT. I've had the same solutions for over a month and they have not gone bad, but I have preserved with thymol. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Jul 13, 2012, at 12:58 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > > Chris,I have not tried this approach yet, my bag of sawdust went missing. On the other hand I have been making some prints, mostly monochrome for about a year now. I have also made some prints from the one year old casein solutiojn, actually it was more then a year old. Works just fine. It is interesting that the first solution that I ever made turned to be the best recipe.Another interesting tidbit is that I have exposed and developed one day old paper checking for the signs of dark reaction and found none. There is one more piece from that batch that I will let sit for perhaps another day or two before exposing and developing. As to your other questions I read the PF article years back, but did not think of it much at the time (in terms of my own interest). I only got interested in it last year with the posts on the list. > >> >> Also, Marek, you were talking about Fresson maybe containing casein. The amount of casein/gelatin I have come across is 10-30% casein to gelatin. Have you tried it yet? >> >> Chris >> >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From zphoto at montana.net Sat Jul 14 14:18:18 2012 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 10:18:18 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EA9CF8A-156A-43E6-AC48-908CE612BFCB@montana.net> Peter, Do you think there is a difference when using sodium carbonate vs. ammonia, since ammonia evaporates when coated? Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Jul 13, 2012, at 9:25 PM, Peter Friedrichsen wrote: > Marek, > > From what I understand, the dichromates shift to chromates as they are made more alkaline (from your ammonia) and these salts are less reactive especially in the higher pH. That may explain the lessened dark reaction. > > Peter Friedrichsen > > > At 12:58 PM 13/07/2012, you wrote: > >> Chris,I have not tried this approach yet, my bag of sawdust went missing. On the other hand I have been making some prints, mostly monochrome for about a year now. I have also made some prints from the one year old casein solutiojn, actually it was more then a year old. Works just fine. It is interesting that the first solution that I ever made turned to be the best recipe.Another interesting tidbit is that I have exposed and developed one day old paper checking for the signs of dark reaction and found none. There is one more piece from that batch that I will let sit for perhaps another day or two before exposing and developing. As to your other questions I read the PF article years back, but did not think of it much at the time (in terms of my own interest). I only got interested in it last year with the posts on the list. >> >> > >> > Also, Marek, you were talking about Fresson maybe containing casein. The amount of casein/gelatin I have come across is 10-30% casein to gelatin. Have you tried it yet? >> > >> > Chris >> > >> > Christina Z. Anderson >> > christinaZanderson.com >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Sat Jul 14 14:46:09 2012 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:46:09 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: <45E169FA-3210-41F6-B422-856B942C3965@montana.net> References: , , <45E169FA-3210-41F6-B422-856B942C3965@montana.net> Message-ID: Chris Casein defitely needs a preservative. Mine is Consan 20 (garden and general use bactericide/fungicide). That is what I had at hand when I made the first solution. Marek > From: zphoto at montana.net > Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 10:06:18 -0400 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history > > Hi Marek, > > Good points, that a year old casein is fine and little dark reaction in your neck of the woods which I assume is HOT. > > I've had the same solutions for over a month and they have not gone bad, but I have preserved with thymol. > > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > On Jul 13, 2012, at 12:58 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > > > > > Chris,I have not tried this approach yet, my bag of sawdust went missing. On the other hand I have been making some prints, mostly monochrome for about a year now. I have also made some prints from the one year old casein solutiojn, actually it was more then a year old. Works just fine. It is interesting that the first solution that I ever made turned to be the best recipe.Another interesting tidbit is that I have exposed and developed one day old paper checking for the signs of dark reaction and found none. There is one more piece from that batch that I will let sit for perhaps another day or two before exposing and developing. As to your other questions I read the PF article years back, but did not think of it much at the time (in terms of my own interest). I only got interested in it last year with the posts on the list. > > > >> > >> Also, Marek, you were talking about Fresson maybe containing casein. The amount of casein/gelatin I have come across is 10-30% casein to gelatin. Have you tried it yet? > >> > >> Chris > >> > >> Christina Z. Anderson > >> christinaZanderson.com > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Sat Jul 14 14:50:01 2012 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 14:50:01 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: Peter, It is definitely true that dichromates become chromates at high pH. I had an impression that chromates are more light sensitive then dichromates and that the old recipies had ammonia as one of the components to increase light sensitivity, but I could very well be mistaken. Since my casein solutions contain ammonium carbonate they do bubble happily when mixed with potassium dichromate. Marek > Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 21:25:15 -0400 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > From: pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history > > Marek, > > From what I understand, the dichromates shift to chromates as they > are made more alkaline (from your ammonia) and these salts are less > reactive especially in the higher pH. That may explain the lessened > dark reaction. > > Peter Friedrichsen > > > At 12:58 PM 13/07/2012, you wrote: > > >Chris,I have not tried this approach yet, my bag of sawdust went > >missing. On the other hand I have been making some prints, mostly > >monochrome for about a year now. I have also made some prints from > >the one year old casein solutiojn, actually it was more then a year > >old. Works just fine. It is interesting that the first solution that > >I ever made turned to be the best recipe.Another interesting tidbit > >is that I have exposed and developed one day old paper checking for > >the signs of dark reaction and found none. There is one more piece > >from that batch that I will let sit for perhaps another day or two > >before exposing and developing. As to your other questions I read > >the PF article years back, but did not think of it much at the time > >(in terms of my own interest). I only got interested in it last year > >with the posts on the list. > > > > > > > > Also, Marek, you were talking about Fresson maybe containing > > casein. The amount of casein/gelatin I have come across is 10-30% > > casein to gelatin. Have you tried it yet? > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > Christina Z. Anderson > > > christinaZanderson.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 14 16:27:01 2012 From: pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca (Peter Friedrichsen) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 12:27:01 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Marek, I have never found the high ph to have negative effect on light sensitivity but only dark reaction. I also read somewhere and I don't recall where or who it was, but the author suggested ammoniating ammonium dichromate to reduce the hardening rate of this when mixed with a colloid for short term storage; it may have been gum or gelatine. Peter Friedrichsen At 10:50 AM 14/07/2012, you wrote: >Peter, It is definitely true that dichromates become chromates at >high pH. I had an impression that chromates are more light sensitive >then dichromates and that the old recipies had ammonia as one of the >components to increase light sensitivity, but I could very well be >mistaken. Since my casein solutions contain ammonium carbonate they >do bubble happily when mixed with potassium dichromate. Marek > > Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2012 21:25:15 -0400 > > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > > From: pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca > > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history > > > > Marek, > > > > From what I understand, the dichromates shift to chromates as they > > are made more alkaline (from your ammonia) and these salts are less > > reactive especially in the higher pH. That may explain the lessened > > dark reaction. > > > > Peter Friedrichsen > > > > > > At 12:58 PM 13/07/2012, you wrote: > > > > >Chris,I have not tried this approach yet, my bag of sawdust went > > >missing. On the other hand I have been making some prints, mostly > > >monochrome for about a year now. I have also made some prints from > > >the one year old casein solutiojn, actually it was more then a year > > >old. Works just fine. It is interesting that the first solution that > > >I ever made turned to be the best recipe.Another interesting tidbit > > >is that I have exposed and developed one day old paper checking for > > >the signs of dark reaction and found none. There is one more piece > > >from that batch that I will let sit for perhaps another day or two > > >before exposing and developing. As to your other questions I read > > >the PF article years back, but did not think of it much at the time > > >(in terms of my own interest). I only got interested in it last year > > >with the posts on the list. > > > > > > > > > > > Also, Marek, you were talking about Fresson maybe containing > > > casein. The amount of casein/gelatin I have come across is 10-30% > > > casein to gelatin. Have you tried it yet? > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > Christina Z. Anderson > > > > christinaZanderson.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > >_______________________________________________ >Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 14 16:34:59 2012 From: pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca (Peter Friedrichsen) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2012 12:34:59 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: <3EA9CF8A-156A-43E6-AC48-908CE612BFCB@montana.net> References: <3EA9CF8A-156A-43E6-AC48-908CE612BFCB@montana.net> Message-ID: Chris, I believe that some of the ammonia reacts with the dichromate to form ammonium chromate, so not all of the excess will evaporate. At least that is how I understand it. AFAIK dichromate is only stable in an acidic environment so adding sodium carbonate would probably create a mix of sodium chromate and ammonium chromate and possibly some of the starters if the proportions aren't stoichiometric. On addition, if the color shifts to bright lemon yellow vs the orange of dichromates, then you are now working with chromates. Peter Friedrichsen At 10:18 AM 14/07/2012, you wrote: >Peter, >Do you think there is a difference when using sodium carbonate vs. >ammonia, since ammonia evaporates when coated? >Chris > >Christina Z. Anderson >christinaZanderson.com > >On Jul 13, 2012, at 9:25 PM, Peter Friedrichsen wrote: > > > Marek, > > > > From what I understand, the dichromates shift to chromates as > they are made more alkaline (from your ammonia) and these salts are > less reactive especially in the higher pH. That may explain the > lessened dark reaction. > > > > Peter Friedrichsen > > > > > > At 12:58 PM 13/07/2012, you wrote: > > > >> Chris,I have not tried this approach yet, my bag of sawdust went > missing. On the other hand I have been making some prints, mostly > monochrome for about a year now. I have also made some prints from > the one year old casein solutiojn, actually it was more then a year > old. Works just fine. It is interesting that the first solution > that I ever made turned to be the best recipe.Another interesting > tidbit is that I have exposed and developed one day old paper > checking for the signs of dark reaction and found none. There is > one more piece from that batch that I will let sit for perhaps > another day or two before exposing and developing. As to your other > questions I read the PF article years back, but did not think of it > much at the time (in terms of my own interest). I only got > interested in it last year with the posts on the list. > >> > >> > > >> > Also, Marek, you were talking about Fresson maybe containing > casein. The amount of casein/gelatin I have come across is 10-30% > casein to gelatin. Have you tried it yet? > >> > > >> > Chris > >> > > >> > Christina Z. Anderson > >> > christinaZanderson.com > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > >_______________________________________________ >Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From contactar at fotografiamartell.com Mon Jul 16 19:23:31 2012 From: contactar at fotografiamartell.com (alejandro) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 21:23:31 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [alt-photo] Hydroquinone, more than 45grs/L 72 hours Message-ID: <1345592635.279122.1342466611509.JavaMail.open-xchange@email.1and1.es> Hello! My name is Alejandro Martell from spain, i usually mix "lith" developers, changing one component, or another etc... i have a problem, my favourite lith developer that use Hydroquinone with 40 grs./L works ok, but if i preffer 80grs./L or 60 grs./L (works better), but always precipitate 72 hours later more or less "forming crystals", i don?t understand it, i have asked to chemical engineer included one especialized forum, but nobody konws... I think the answer could be dietilenglicol.... What do you think about? thanks From earlj at comcast.net Mon Jul 16 19:59:34 2012 From: earlj at comcast.net (Earl Johnson) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 14:59:34 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Hydroquinone, more than 45grs/L 72 hours In-Reply-To: <1345592635.279122.1342466611509.JavaMail.open-xchange@email.1and1.es> References: <1345592635.279122.1342466611509.JavaMail.open-xchange@email.1and1.es> Message-ID: <500472A6.8090408@comcast.net> The solubility of hydroquinone in water is only 5.9 g/100 ml at 15 degrees C. It will not stay in solution at room temperature at 60 or 80 g/liter. Earl Johnson On 7/16/2012 2:23 PM, alejandro wrote: > Hello! > My name is Alejandro Martell from spain, > i usually mix "lith" developers, changing one component, or another etc... i > have > a problem, my favourite lith developer that use Hydroquinone with 40 > grs./L works ok, but if i preffer 80grs./L or 60 grs./L (works better), but > always > precipitate 72 hours later more or less "forming crystals", i don?t understand > it, i have > asked to chemical engineer included one especialized forum, but nobody > konws... > I think the answer could be dietilenglicol.... What do you think about? thanks > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From viapiano at pacbell.net Mon Jul 16 20:57:51 2012 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 13:57:51 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Hydroquinone, more than 45grs/L 72 hours In-Reply-To: <1345592635.279122.1342466611509.JavaMail.open-xchange@email.1and1.es> References: <1345592635.279122.1342466611509.JavaMail.open-xchange@email.1and1.es> Message-ID: Alejandro, care to share a favorite lith formula? Thanks...Paul On Jul 16, 2012, at 12:23 PM, alejandro wrote: > Hello! > My name is Alejandro Martell from spain, > i usually mix "lith" developers, changing one component, or another etc... i > have > a problem, my favourite lith developer that use Hydroquinone with 40 > grs./L works ok, but if i preffer 80grs./L or 60 grs./L (works better), but > always > precipitate 72 hours later more or less "forming crystals", i don?t understand > it, i have > asked to chemical engineer included one especialized forum, but nobody > konws... > I think the answer could be dietilenglicol.... What do you think about? thanks > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From blackburnap at hotmail.com Tue Jul 17 13:35:02 2012 From: blackburnap at hotmail.com (Peter Blackburn) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 08:35:02 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Alternative/Historical Photographic Processes Exhibition in Dallas, Texas In-Reply-To: References: , , <95DF8A14-283D-44E8-9205-9FCF2F502680@montana.net>, , , Message-ID: Starts July 19 and runs through August 18. Artists' reception on Saturday, July 21 at Sun to Moon Gallery. Artist presentations on August 18 (closing day).I have tricolor casein and gum bichromate prints on display. Works by my colleagues include wetplate (ambrotype and tintype), palladium, cyanotype withpecan dye), encaustic, inkjet on fabric, image transfer, and ziatype. We are part of the North Texas Alternative Photography Group (NTAPG). Also in the gallery but separate from this exhibition is the work of Dan Burkholder (platinum over gold leaf) and Jill Skupin Burkholder (bromoil) What a broad and fabulous range of processes under one roof! I invite all alternative artists in the DFW area to visit the show. The link belowwill bring you to detailed gallery information. http://www.suntomoon.com/pages/Tri_framesets/whatsnew_tri_fs.html Cheers everyone! Peter J. Blackburn From alt.photosbyjeremy at gmail.com Tue Jul 17 13:58:37 2012 From: alt.photosbyjeremy at gmail.com (Jeremy Moore) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 08:58:37 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative/Historical Photographic Processes Exhibition in Dallas, Texas In-Reply-To: References: <95DF8A14-283D-44E8-9205-9FCF2F502680@montana.net> Message-ID: Congrats, Peter! I don't known if I can make the reception this Saturday, but I have the 18th on my calendar. On Jul 17, 2012 8:35 AM, "Peter Blackburn" wrote: > > Starts July 19 and runs through August 18. Artists' reception on Saturday, > July 21 at Sun to Moon Gallery. Artist presentations on August 18 (closing > day).I have tricolor casein and gum bichromate prints on display. Works by > my colleagues include wetplate (ambrotype and tintype), palladium, > cyanotype withpecan dye), encaustic, inkjet on fabric, image transfer, and > ziatype. We are part of the North Texas Alternative Photography Group > (NTAPG). Also in the gallery but separate from this exhibition is the work > of Dan Burkholder (platinum over gold leaf) and Jill Skupin Burkholder > (bromoil) What a broad and fabulous range of processes under one roof! I > invite all alternative artists in the DFW area to visit the show. The link > belowwill bring you to detailed gallery information. > http://www.suntomoon.com/pages/Tri_framesets/whatsnew_tri_fs.html Cheers > everyone! > > Peter J. Blackburn > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From blackburnap at hotmail.com Tue Jul 17 14:02:30 2012 From: blackburnap at hotmail.com (Peter Blackburn) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 09:02:30 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative/Historical Photographic Processes Exhibition in Dallas, Texas In-Reply-To: References: , , <95DF8A14-283D-44E8-9205-9FCF2F502680@montana.net>, , , , , Message-ID: Great Jeremy! I very much look forward to meeting you! Peter > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 08:58:37 -0500 > From: alt.photosbyjeremy at gmail.com > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative/Historical Photographic Processes Exhibition in Dallas, Texas > > Congrats, Peter! I don't known if I can make the reception this Saturday, > but I have the 18th on my calendar. > On Jul 17, 2012 8:35 AM, "Peter Blackburn" wrote: > > > > > Starts July 19 and runs through August 18. Artists' reception on Saturday, > > July 21 at Sun to Moon Gallery. Artist presentations on August 18 (closing > > day).I have tricolor casein and gum bichromate prints on display. Works by > > my colleagues include wetplate (ambrotype and tintype), palladium, > > cyanotype withpecan dye), encaustic, inkjet on fabric, image transfer, and > > ziatype. We are part of the North Texas Alternative Photography Group > > (NTAPG). Also in the gallery but separate from this exhibition is the work > > of Dan Burkholder (platinum over gold leaf) and Jill Skupin Burkholder > > (bromoil) What a broad and fabulous range of processes under one roof! I > > invite all alternative artists in the DFW area to visit the show. The link > > belowwill bring you to detailed gallery information. > > http://www.suntomoon.com/pages/Tri_framesets/whatsnew_tri_fs.html Cheers > > everyone! > > > > Peter J. Blackburn > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From dlhbloomfield at gmail.com Tue Jul 17 14:09:02 2012 From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 10:09:02 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative/Historical Photographic Processes Exhibition in Dallas, Texas In-Reply-To: References: , , <95DF8A14-283D-44E8-9205-9FCF2F502680@montana.net>, , , Message-ID: Hey Peter, This looks like such a wonderful exhibit-- so many incredible processes in one show. I'd love to be able to see them, and especially your tri-color casein and gum prints. Congratulations! I hope all goes well, and everything sells at the opening! Diana On Jul 17, 2012, at 9:35 AM, Peter Blackburn wrote: > > Starts July 19 and runs through August 18. Artists' reception on Saturday, July 21 at Sun to Moon Gallery. Artist presentations on August 18 (closing day).I have tricolor casein and gum bichromate prints on display. Works by my colleagues include wetplate (ambrotype and tintype), palladium, cyanotype withpecan dye), encaustic, inkjet on fabric, image transfer, and ziatype. We are part of the North Texas Alternative Photography Group (NTAPG). Also in the gallery but separate from this exhibition is the work of Dan Burkholder (platinum over gold leaf) and Jill Skupin Burkholder (bromoil) What a broad and fabulous range of processes under one roof! I invite all alternative artists in the DFW area to visit the show. The link belowwill bring you to detailed gallery information. http://www.suntomoon.com/pages/Tri_framesets/whatsnew_tri_fs.html Cheers everyone! > > Peter J. Blackburn > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From blackburnap at hotmail.com Tue Jul 17 14:26:16 2012 From: blackburnap at hotmail.com (Peter Blackburn) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 09:26:16 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative/Historical Photographic Processes Exhibition in Dallas, Texas In-Reply-To: References: , , , , <95DF8A14-283D-44E8-9205-9FCF2F502680@montana.net>, , , , , , , , Message-ID: Thank you, Diana, for your very kind words and your quite optimistic sales wishes! My understanding is that this exhibition will be going on the road. One stop it will make will be at Visual Arts Center in Starkville, MS, during the Society for Photographic Education (SPE) conference. The dates are October 16th - November 2nd. Who knows, it might eventually come your way! I very much appreciate hearing from you!! :-) Peter > From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 10:09:02 -0400 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative/Historical Photographic Processes Exhibition in Dallas, Texas > > Hey Peter, > > This looks like such a wonderful exhibit-- so many incredible processes in one show. I'd love to be able to see them, and especially your tri-color casein and gum prints. Congratulations! I hope all goes well, and everything sells at the opening! > > Diana > > On Jul 17, 2012, at 9:35 AM, Peter Blackburn wrote: > > > > > Starts July 19 and runs through August 18. Artists' reception on Saturday, July 21 at Sun to Moon Gallery. Artist presentations on August 18 (closing day).I have tricolor casein and gum bichromate prints on display. Works by my colleagues include wetplate (ambrotype and tintype), palladium, cyanotype withpecan dye), encaustic, inkjet on fabric, image transfer, and ziatype. We are part of the North Texas Alternative Photography Group (NTAPG). Also in the gallery but separate from this exhibition is the work of Dan Burkholder (platinum over gold leaf) and Jill Skupin Burkholder (bromoil) What a broad and fabulous range of processes under one roof! I invite all alternative artists in the DFW area to visit the show. The link belowwill bring you to detailed gallery information. http://www.suntomoon.com/pages/Tri_framesets/whatsnew_tri_fs.html Cheers everyone! > > > > Peter J. Blackburn > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From contactar at fotografiamartell.com Tue Jul 17 18:03:23 2012 From: contactar at fotografiamartell.com (alejandro) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 20:03:23 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: hydroquinone, more than ... Message-ID: <331609314.305405.1342548203355.JavaMail.open-xchange@email.1and1.es> I am trying to resolve this problem, and i have not finished my research, now the version V 1.0... as soon as possible i will share my lith formula... From kakarott76 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 17 18:49:10 2012 From: kakarott76 at hotmail.com (Kurt Nagy) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 13:49:10 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative/Historical Photographic Processes Exhibition in Dallas, Texas In-Reply-To: References: <95DF8A14-283D-44E8-9205-9FCF2F502680@montana.net> Message-ID: Nice, I live in OKC so I may take a day trip down to check it out before it closes On Jul 17, 2012, at 8:35 AM, Peter Blackburn wrote: > > Starts July 19 and runs through August 18. Artists' reception on Saturday, July 21 at Sun to Moon Gallery. Artist presentations on August 18 (closing day).I have tricolor casein and gum bichromate prints on display. Works by my colleagues include wetplate (ambrotype and tintype), palladium, cyanotype withpecan dye), encaustic, inkjet on fabric, image transfer, and ziatype. We are part of the North Texas Alternative Photography Group (NTAPG). Also in the gallery but separate from this exhibition is the work of Dan Burkholder (platinum over gold leaf) and Jill Skupin Burkholder (bromoil) What a broad and fabulous range of processes under one roof! I invite all alternative artists in the DFW area to visit the show. The link belowwill bring you to detailed gallery information. http://www.suntomoon.com/pages/Tri_framesets/whatsnew_tri_fs.html Cheers everyone! > > Peter J. Blackburn > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From blackburnap at hotmail.com Tue Jul 17 23:51:34 2012 From: blackburnap at hotmail.com (Peter Blackburn) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 18:51:34 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative/Historical Photographic Processes Exhibition in Dallas, Texas In-Reply-To: References: , , <95DF8A14-283D-44E8-9205-9FCF2F502680@montana.net>, , , , , Message-ID: Thanks, Kurt! I think if alt photog is a passion for anyone in the DFW area or within a few hours drive, I don't believe you'll be disappointed. Peter > CC: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > From: kakarott76 at hotmail.com > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 13:49:10 -0500 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative/Historical Photographic Processes Exhibition in Dallas, Texas > > Nice, I live in OKC so I may take a day trip down to check it out before it closes > > > > On Jul 17, 2012, at 8:35 AM, Peter Blackburn wrote: > > > > > Starts July 19 and runs through August 18. Artists' reception on Saturday, July 21 at Sun to Moon Gallery. Artist presentations on August 18 (closing day).I have tricolor casein and gum bichromate prints on display. Works by my colleagues include wetplate (ambrotype and tintype), palladium, cyanotype withpecan dye), encaustic, inkjet on fabric, image transfer, and ziatype. We are part of the North Texas Alternative Photography Group (NTAPG). Also in the gallery but separate from this exhibition is the work of Dan Burkholder (platinum over gold leaf) and Jill Skupin Burkholder (bromoil) What a broad and fabulous range of processes under one roof! I invite all alternative artists in the DFW area to visit the show. The link belowwill bring you to detailed gallery information. http://www.suntomoon.com/pages/Tri_framesets/whatsnew_tri_fs.html Cheers everyone! > > > > Peter J. Blackburn > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From dlhbloomfield at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 01:34:25 2012 From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:34:25 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative/Historical Photographic Processes Exhibition in Dallas, Texas In-Reply-To: References: , , , , <95DF8A14-283D-44E8-9205-9FCF2F502680@montana.net>, , , , , , , , Message-ID: Hey Peter, That's great about taking the show on the road! I'm thinking that MS isn't in my SPE region-- I'll check that for sure-- but that's such a great idea. Hopefully, I might get to see it. Let us know how it all goes at the opening, and do take pictures. Diana > > Thank you, Diana, for your very kind words and your quite optimistic sales wishes! My understanding is that this exhibition will be going on the road. One stop it will make will be at Visual Arts Center in Starkville, MS, during the Society for Photographic Education (SPE) conference. The dates are October 16th - November 2nd. Who knows, it might eventually come your way! I very much appreciate hearing from you!! :-) > Peter > From blackburnap at hotmail.com Wed Jul 18 12:22:48 2012 From: blackburnap at hotmail.com (Peter Blackburn) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 07:22:48 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative/Historical Photographic Processes Exhibition in Dallas, Texas In-Reply-To: References: , ,,, ,,<95DF8A14-283D-44E8-9205-9FCF2F502680@montana.net>, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , Message-ID: Oh yes, I plan to take lots of photos! Thanks, Diana, for the well wishes! Peter > From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com > Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 21:34:25 -0400 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative/Historical Photographic Processes Exhibition in Dallas, Texas > > > Hey Peter, > > That's great about taking the show on the road! I'm thinking that MS isn't in my SPE region-- I'll check that for sure-- but that's such a great idea. Hopefully, I might get to see it. > Let us know how it all goes at the opening, and do take pictures. > > Diana > > > > Thank you, Diana, for your very kind words and your quite optimistic sales wishes! My understanding is that this exhibition will be going on the road. One stop it will make will be at Visual Arts Center in Starkville, MS, during the Society for Photographic Education (SPE) conference. The dates are October 16th - November 2nd. Who knows, it might eventually come your way! I very much appreciate hearing from you!! :-) > > Peter > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From noisy at rogers.com Wed Jul 18 17:25:12 2012 From: noisy at rogers.com (Ian Hooper) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 14:25:12 -0300 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5006F178.4000204@rogers.com> On 13/07/2012 1:58 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > Also, Marek, you were talking about Fresson maybe containing casein. There is no casein in the real Fresson formula. None. ;) From mineurdecharbon at skynet.be Wed Jul 18 17:44:30 2012 From: mineurdecharbon at skynet.be (Philippe Berger) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 19:44:30 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history References: <5006F178.4000204@rogers.com> Message-ID: <2FC38C8B40834107B02CAA03414CF2AF@philbrgrf70d3e> I confirm no cas?in on the Fresson Carbon formula mineurdecharbon at skynet.be http://www.philippeberger.net/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Hooper" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 7:25 PM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history > On 13/07/2012 1:58 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: >> Also, Marek, you were talking about Fresson maybe containing casein. > There is no casein in the real Fresson formula. None. ;) > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 7310 (20120718) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > From krd at photoartsimaging.com Wed Jul 18 18:10:33 2012 From: krd at photoartsimaging.com (Kim Du Boise) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 13:10:33 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Alternative/Historical Photographic Processes Exhibition in Dallas, TX Message-ID: <239CBD2E-B7BC-46E7-AD10-B950C87C0B53@photoartsimaging.com> Greetings & Congratulations, Mr. Blackburn. I will be one of the presenters at the SPE conference and look forward to seeing in person what I saw on the gallery link. I made a presentation in 1998 to this South Central regional conference advocating the addition of alternative or historic processes to the curriculum as I had at the University of Southern MS. It was well received & I know this exhibit will be an exciting addition to the conference! This time I am presenting as a photographic materials conservator on preserving traditional & digital photographic work for the future. We will be encouraging folks to see the exhibit. I think it may already be one of the conference venues, if I know my colleagues up there! Thanks for sharing this info. Kim Kim R. Du Boise, Conservator PhotoArts Imaging Professionals, LLC 123 Buchanan Road Hattiesburg, MS 39401-9545 Local: 601-582-3686 FAX: 601-544-1920 Toll-free: 866-278-3686 www.photoartsimaging.com From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Wed Jul 18 18:31:25 2012 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 18:31:25 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: <2FC38C8B40834107B02CAA03414CF2AF@philbrgrf70d3e> References: , <5006F178.4000204@rogers.com>, <2FC38C8B40834107B02CAA03414CF2AF@philbrgrf70d3e> Message-ID: Interesting two big NO. I thought that Fresson formula is a closely guarded secret of the family and is not known in a greater photographic community. Is the definite NO from actually knowing the formula or guessing it from old literature? Even if the original Fresson formula does not contain any casein I am still intrigued by the saw dust development of casein prints as casein likes forced development more then gum does. I use a sprayer bottle with good results. In reality my casein prints contain some gum (so they are technically not pure casein) as I use watercolour pigments, not dry powder pigments. I just need a break in the rain here to drag my saw and generate some sawdust. Marek > From: mineurdecharbon at skynet.be > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 19:44:30 +0200 > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history > > I confirm no cas?in on the Fresson Carbon formula > mineurdecharbon at skynet.be > http://www.philippeberger.net/ > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ian Hooper" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 7:25 PM > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history > > > > On 13/07/2012 1:58 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > >> Also, Marek, you were talking about Fresson maybe containing casein. > > There is no casein in the real Fresson formula. None. ;) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > > signature database 7310 (20120718) __________ > > > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From noisy at rogers.com Wed Jul 18 20:35:11 2012 From: noisy at rogers.com (Ian Hooper) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 17:35:11 -0300 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: References: , <5006F178.4000204@rogers.com>, <2FC38C8B40834107B02CAA03414CF2AF@philbrgrf70d3e> Message-ID: <50071DFF.7070706@rogers.com> I spoke with the Luis Nadeau and got the "no casein" answer.... but he still won't tell me all the secrets. (I'll try feeding him strong liquor next time :) As far as I know, Luis has the only Fresson lab outside of the family-operated lab in France.. -Ian On 18/07/2012 3:31 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > Interesting two big NO. > > I thought that Fresson formula is a closely guarded secret of the family and is not known in a greater photographic community. Is the definite NO from actually knowing the formula or guessing it from old literature? > > > From zphoto at montana.net Wed Jul 18 21:07:58 2012 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 17:07:58 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: References: , <5006F178.4000204@rogers.com>, <2FC38C8B40834107B02CAA03414CF2AF@philbrgrf70d3e> Message-ID: <60FD5C48-353D-401A-838F-0386DC29C81E@montana.net> Marek, Ian, Phillipe, and others, I have no "in" with the Fresson family to know if casein is part of the composition. I have numerous articles on the composition of Fresson paper, but none say they know it for a fact, all say they are guessing it. Thus a definitive answer can only be had from electron microscopy. I know of two that have done that and nothing about casein has been mentioned, supporting Phillipe and Ian. However, in talking with a conservator, casein would be a hard substance to spot because of its various components. Here is the actual answer from the conservator: "The identification of casein is not a trivial matter. It is a protein so its FTIR signature is very close to both gelatin and albumin. There is a chance to use the XRF (the elemental analysis) when looking for phosphorus but that is also complicated due a limited sensitivity of the XRF for light elements (like P etc.)?.." The reason I brought up the initial issue, and Marek responded to it, was that casein was proposed in an original patent of carbon tissue in combination with gelatin. This was 1870, long before Artigue, Fresson, and Leto papers, direct carbon tissues. I could go on and on about this historical milieu but suffice it to say that it is a question to pose, or outrule, at the very least, and I think a definitive "no" is somewhat premature, given the secrecy of the formulas involved. My GUESS is a "no" along with Ian and Philippe, but that is not supported by evidence YET. The much more intriguing question is how much early carbon transfer tissue contained casein and is it a viable option today? Or did problems present themselves with casein in its early use that made the Autotype company abandon its use after 1870? There are hints at casein's problems in the literature, at any rate. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Jul 18, 2012, at 2:31 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > > Interesting two big NO. > > I thought that Fresson formula is a closely guarded secret of the family and is not known in a greater photographic community. Is the definite NO from actually knowing the formula or guessing it from old literature? > > Even if the original Fresson formula does not contain any casein I am still intrigued by the saw dust development of casein prints as casein likes forced development more then gum does. I use a sprayer bottle with good results. In reality my casein prints contain some gum (so they are technically not pure casein) as I use watercolour pigments, not dry powder pigments. > > I just need a break in the rain here to drag my saw and generate some sawdust. > > Marek > > >> From: mineurdecharbon at skynet.be >> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >> Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 19:44:30 +0200 >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history >> >> I confirm no cas?in on the Fresson Carbon formula >> mineurdecharbon at skynet.be >> http://www.philippeberger.net/ >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ian Hooper" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 7:25 PM >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history >> >> >>> On 13/07/2012 1:58 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: >>>> Also, Marek, you were talking about Fresson maybe containing casein. >>> There is no casein in the real Fresson formula. None. ;) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature database 7310 (20120718) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From blackburnap at hotmail.com Thu Jul 19 12:03:53 2012 From: blackburnap at hotmail.com (Peter Blackburn) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 07:03:53 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Alternative/Historical Photographic Processes Exhibition in Dallas, TX In-Reply-To: <239CBD2E-B7BC-46E7-AD10-B950C87C0B53@photoartsimaging.com> References: <239CBD2E-B7BC-46E7-AD10-B950C87C0B53@photoartsimaging.com> Message-ID: Hello Kim: Hello Kim: Thank you for your comments and very kind words regarding the exhibition. My schedule does not permit me to attend the SPE in MS. However, at least four of my NTAPG colleagues will be at SPE presenting material and providing interpretation for the alternative work our group will have on display. I hope will you have an opportunity to meet them. Thank you for being an advocate of alternative and historical photography. I hope your presentation goes well?wish I could be there to hear you speak. Thank you, Kim. So nice to meet you via this forum. All the best to you. Peter J. Blackburn > From: krd at photoartsimaging.com > Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 13:10:33 -0500 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] Alternative/Historical Photographic Processes Exhibition in Dallas, TX > > Greetings & Congratulations, Mr. Blackburn. > > I will be one of the presenters at the SPE conference and look forward to seeing in person what I saw on the gallery link. I made a presentation in 1998 to this South Central regional conference advocating the addition of alternative or historic processes to the curriculum as I had at the University of Southern MS. It was well received & I know this exhibit will be an exciting addition to the conference! > > This time I am presenting as a photographic materials conservator on preserving traditional & digital photographic work for the future. We will be encouraging folks to see the exhibit. I think it may already be one of the conference venues, if I know my colleagues up there! Thanks for sharing this info. > > Kim > > Kim R. Du Boise, Conservator > PhotoArts Imaging Professionals, LLC > 123 Buchanan Road > Hattiesburg, MS 39401-9545 > > Local: 601-582-3686 > FAX: 601-544-1920 > Toll-free: 866-278-3686 > www.photoartsimaging.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From stellaps at cableone.net Thu Jul 19 15:54:41 2012 From: stellaps at cableone.net (Stella Schneider) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 09:54:41 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Sawdust question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001901cd65c6$d0f04670$72d0d350$@net> Marek, I am curious to know how you use the sawdust to develop casein. Stella Message: 5 Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 18:31:25 +0000 From: Marek Matusz To: alt photo Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Interesting two big NO. I thought that Fresson formula is a closely guarded secret of the family and is not known in a greater photographic community. Is the definite NO from actually knowing the formula or guessing it from old literature? Even if the original Fresson formula does not contain any casein I am still intrigued by the saw dust development of casein prints as casein likes forced development more then gum does. I use a sprayer bottle with good results. In reality my casein prints contain some gum (so they are technically not pure casein) as I use watercolour pigments, not dry powder pigments. I just need a break in the rain here to drag my saw and generate some sawdust. Marek > From: mineurdecharbon at skynet.be > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 19:44:30 +0200 > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history > > I confirm no cas?in on the Fresson Carbon formula > mineurdecharbon at skynet.be > http://www.philippeberger.net/ > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ian Hooper" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 7:25 PM > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history > > > > On 13/07/2012 1:58 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > >> Also, Marek, you were talking about Fresson maybe containing casein. > > There is no casein in the real Fresson formula. None. ;) > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > > signature database 7310 (20120718) __________ > > > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 17:35:11 -0300 From: Ian Hooper To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history Message-ID: <50071DFF.7070706 at rogers.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I spoke with the Luis Nadeau and got the "no casein" answer.... but he still won't tell me all the secrets. (I'll try feeding him strong liquor next time :) As far as I know, Luis has the only Fresson lab outside of the family-operated lab in France.. -Ian On 18/07/2012 3:31 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > Interesting two big NO. > > I thought that Fresson formula is a closely guarded secret of the family and is not known in a greater photographic community. Is the definite NO from actually knowing the formula or guessing it from old literature? > > > ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 17:07:58 -0400 From: Christina Anderson To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history Message-ID: <60FD5C48-353D-401A-838F-0386DC29C81E at montana.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Marek, Ian, Phillipe, and others, I have no "in" with the Fresson family to know if casein is part of the composition. I have numerous articles on the composition of Fresson paper, but none say they know it for a fact, all say they are guessing it. Thus a definitive answer can only be had from electron microscopy. I know of two that have done that and nothing about casein has been mentioned, supporting Phillipe and Ian. However, in talking with a conservator, casein would be a hard substance to spot because of its various components. Here is the actual answer from the conservator: "The identification of casein is not a trivial matter. It is a protein so its FTIR signature is very close to both gelatin and albumin. There is a chance to use the XRF (the elemental analysis) when looking for phosphorus but that is also complicated due a limited sensitivity of the XRF for light elements (like P etc.)?.." The reason I brought up the initial issue, and Marek responded to it, was that casein was proposed in an original patent of carbon tissue in combination with gelatin. This was 1870, long before Artigue, Fresson, and Leto papers, direct carbon tissues. I could go on and on about this historical milieu but suffice it to say that it is a question to pose, or outrule, at the very least, and I think a definitive "no" is somewhat premature, given the secrecy of the formulas involved. My GUESS is a "no" along with Ian and Philippe, but that is not supported by evidence YET. The much more intriguing question is how much early carbon transfer tissue contained casein and is it a viable option today? Or did problems present themselves with casein in its early use that made the Autotype company abandon its use after 1870? There are hints at casein's problems in the literature, at any rate. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Jul 18, 2012, at 2:31 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > > Interesting two big NO. > > I thought that Fresson formula is a closely guarded secret of the family and is not known in a greater photographic community. Is the definite NO from actually knowing the formula or guessing it from old literature? > > Even if the original Fresson formula does not contain any casein I am still intrigued by the saw dust development of casein prints as casein likes forced development more then gum does. I use a sprayer bottle with good results. In reality my casein prints contain some gum (so they are technically not pure casein) as I use watercolour pigments, not dry powder pigments. > > I just need a break in the rain here to drag my saw and generate some sawdust. > From evan at evanhughes.org Thu Jul 19 17:30:26 2012 From: evan at evanhughes.org (Evan J Hughes) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 18:30:26 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50084432.40600@evanhughes.org> Hi Chris, I hope to have another go at adding casein to carbon tissue over the next few weeks, but on thinking about the behaviour of casein, do you know what the advantage of adding casein to carbon tissue was thought to be? My first thought was that it may make the tissue more sensitive and therefore expose faster, but otherwise, many of the properties of casein are not necessarily an advantage, i.e. it is important to have a recipe that develops easily in warm rather than hot water to reduce issues with bubbling; the unexposed tissue needs to melt very easily to allow the support paper to be stripped away. I do not see how the casein may help with adhesion during transfer, although it can make a very effective glue. I plan to try a few glop mixes ranging over 10% to 30% of casein; have you noticed how much pigment was used in the gelatine-casein carbon tissues? I wonder if the pigment quantity may be very high so that a very thin, high contrast tissue can be poured; rapid automated manufacture is then much more simple which would be important for mass-produced tissue. Best regards, Evan > Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 17:07:58 -0400 > From: Christina Anderson > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history > Message-ID:<60FD5C48-353D-401A-838F-0386DC29C81E at montana.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > Marek, Ian, Phillipe, and others, > > I have no "in" with the Fresson family to know if casein is part of the composition. I have numerous articles on the composition of Fresson paper, but none say they know it for a fact, all say they are guessing it. Thus a definitive answer can only be had from electron microscopy. > > I know of two that have done that and nothing about casein has been mentioned, supporting Phillipe and Ian. However, in talking with a conservator, casein would be a hard substance to spot because of its various components. > > Here is the actual answer from the conservator: > > "The identification of casein is not a trivial matter. It is a protein so its FTIR signature is very close to both gelatin and albumin. There is a chance to use the XRF (the elemental analysis) when looking for phosphorus but that is also complicated due a limited sensitivity of the XRF for light elements (like P etc.)?.." > > The reason I brought up the initial issue, and Marek responded to it, was that casein was proposed in an original patent of carbon tissue in combination with gelatin. This was 1870, long before Artigue, Fresson, and Leto papers, direct carbon tissues. I could go on and on about this historical milieu but suffice it to say that it is a question to pose, or outrule, at the very least, and I think a definitive "no" is somewhat premature, given the secrecy of the formulas involved. > > My GUESS is a "no" along with Ian and Philippe, but that is not supported by evidence YET. The much more intriguing question is how much early carbon transfer tissue contained casein and is it a viable option today? Or did problems present themselves with casein in its early use that made the Autotype company abandon its use after 1870? There are hints at casein's problems in the literature, at any rate. > > Chris > > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > -- http://www.concretebanana.co.uk http://blog.concretebanana.co.uk From zphoto at montana.net Fri Jul 20 00:28:52 2012 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 18:28:52 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: <50084432.40600@evanhughes.org> References: <50084432.40600@evanhughes.org> Message-ID: Hi Evan, Glad you are trying this! Gelatin was susceptible to melting in hot water or weather and casein would help with that, esp. in summer months. Here is part of the patent description that may be of some help. My third improvement consists in replacing the gelatine and its analogues in the above compounds wholly or in part by certain other organic compounds having the property of insolubility in warm water but of solubility in some other chemical agent, such as ammonia or the alkalies or salts; and the best substances I am at present acquainted with are the proteine compounds which possess the specified properties, such as caseine, legumine, modified albumen, and their congeners. A pigment compound so formed, and mixed with a bichromate, is sensitive to light; but the picture is not revealed or developed by hot water until a few drops of ammonia or other alkali possessing the like property has been added to the water. In carrying out this part of my invention I form a curd of skimmed milk, as in making cheese, by precipitating the caseine with rennet or by an acid. I collect the curd on a filter, and, after partially drying it by pressure, I dissolve the caseine or curd in dilute liquor ammonia. This solution?which should be as thick as the previously described solution of gelatine in four and a half parts of water?I use instead of a portion of the gelatine solution; that is to say, I take away part of the gelatine solution and substitute in lieu thereof an equal portion of the caseine solution. The quantity so substituted may be greatly varied. Ten per cent of the caseine solution so substituted renders the resulting compound insoluble in water until a certain quantity of ammonia has been added, and twice or three times that quantity does not prevent a workable tissue compound being formed; and in making such a pigment compound I find it best to mix the caseine solution with that of the soap, and add the two together to the gelatine. Soap, however, is not absolutely necessary, as the caseine itself gives flexibility to the tissue, and thus supersedes the necessity of employing the soap... Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Jul 19, 2012, at 11:30 AM, Evan J Hughes wrote: > Hi Chris, > > I hope to have another go at adding casein to carbon tissue over the next few weeks, but on thinking about the behaviour of casein, do you know what the advantage of adding casein to carbon tissue was thought to be? > > My first thought was that it may make the tissue more sensitive and therefore expose faster, but otherwise, many of the properties of casein are not necessarily an advantage, i.e. it is important to have a recipe that develops easily in warm rather than hot water to reduce issues with bubbling; the unexposed tissue needs to melt very easily to allow the support paper to be stripped away. I do not see how the casein may help with adhesion during transfer, although it can make a very effective glue. > > I plan to try a few glop mixes ranging over 10% to 30% of casein; have you noticed how much pigment was used in the gelatine-casein carbon tissues? I wonder if the pigment quantity may be very high so that a very thin, high contrast tissue can be poured; rapid automated manufacture is then much more simple which would be important for mass-produced tissue. > > Best regards, > > Evan > >> Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 17:07:58 -0400 >> From: Christina Anderson >> To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list >> >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history >> Message-ID:<60FD5C48-353D-401A-838F-0386DC29C81E at montana.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 >> >> Marek, Ian, Phillipe, and others, >> >> I have no "in" with the Fresson family to know if casein is part of the composition. I have numerous articles on the composition of Fresson paper, but none say they know it for a fact, all say they are guessing it. Thus a definitive answer can only be had from electron microscopy. >> >> I know of two that have done that and nothing about casein has been mentioned, supporting Phillipe and Ian. However, in talking with a conservator, casein would be a hard substance to spot because of its various components. >> >> Here is the actual answer from the conservator: >> >> "The identification of casein is not a trivial matter. It is a protein so its FTIR signature is very close to both gelatin and albumin. There is a chance to use the XRF (the elemental analysis) when looking for phosphorus but that is also complicated due a limited sensitivity of the XRF for light elements (like P etc.)?.." >> >> The reason I brought up the initial issue, and Marek responded to it, was that casein was proposed in an original patent of carbon tissue in combination with gelatin. This was 1870, long before Artigue, Fresson, and Leto papers, direct carbon tissues. I could go on and on about this historical milieu but suffice it to say that it is a question to pose, or outrule, at the very least, and I think a definitive "no" is somewhat premature, given the secrecy of the formulas involved. >> >> My GUESS is a "no" along with Ian and Philippe, but that is not supported by evidence YET. The much more intriguing question is how much early carbon transfer tissue contained casein and is it a viable option today? Or did problems present themselves with casein in its early use that made the Autotype company abandon its use after 1870? There are hints at casein's problems in the literature, at any rate. >> >> Chris >> >> >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> > > > -- > http://www.concretebanana.co.uk > http://blog.concretebanana.co.uk > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From bobkiss at caribsurf.com Fri Jul 20 13:46:47 2012 From: bobkiss at caribsurf.com (BOB KISS) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 09:46:47 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] RESOUNDING SILENCE Message-ID: DEAR LIST, A few weeks ago I asked if anyone had any info on Bob Schramm. Only one or two people replied. I also recall that he sent a strange tirade to the list and I think one of the minders removed him. Neither his e-mail nor his website are working. Does anyone know of his situation? CHEERS! BOB Please check my website: http://www.bobkiss.com/ "Live as if you are going to die tomorrow. Learn as if you are going to live forever". Mahatma Gandhi ?Madonne e fiori, trionfo eterno di giovent?!? from Mattinata Fiorentina by Antonella Ruggiero From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Fri Jul 20 14:56:16 2012 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:56:16 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Sawdust question In-Reply-To: <001901cd65c6$d0f04670$72d0d350$@net> References: , <001901cd65c6$d0f04670$72d0d350$@net> Message-ID: Stella, I have not done that yet. I have tried sawdust development for gum at one time. The traditional method was to pur sawdust slurry over a print fixed to a support and placed at an angle. . I used a flalt bottom tray with a print at the bottom and some sawdust in the tray and just sloshing or jerking tray around to get the sawdust move about surface of the print. there might be people on the list that have learned it from actual practitioners in the way back days. There is some older references of Fresson papers that have good instructions for developing with sawdust. Marek > From: stellaps at cableone.net > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 09:54:41 -0600 > Subject: [alt-photo] Sawdust question > > Marek, > I am curious to know how you use the sawdust to develop casein. > Stella > > > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 18:31:25 +0000 > From: Marek Matusz > To: alt photo > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > Interesting two big NO. > > I thought that Fresson formula is a closely guarded secret of the family and > is not known in a greater photographic community. Is the definite NO from > actually knowing the formula or guessing it from old literature? > > Even if the original Fresson formula does not contain any casein I am still > intrigued by the saw dust development of casein prints as casein likes > forced development more then gum does. I use a sprayer bottle with good > results. In reality my casein prints contain some gum (so they are > technically not pure casein) as I use watercolour pigments, not dry powder > pigments. > > I just need a break in the rain here to drag my saw and generate some > sawdust. > > Marek > > > > From: mineurdecharbon at skynet.be > > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > > Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 19:44:30 +0200 > > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history > > > > I confirm no cas?in on the Fresson Carbon formula > > mineurdecharbon at skynet.be > > http://www.philippeberger.net/ > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ian Hooper" > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 7:25 PM > > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history > > > > > > > On 13/07/2012 1:58 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > > >> Also, Marek, you were talking about Fresson maybe containing casein. > > > There is no casein in the real Fresson formula. None. ;) > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > > > signature database 7310 (20120718) __________ > > > > > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > > > > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 17:35:11 -0300 > From: Ian Hooper > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history > Message-ID: <50071DFF.7070706 at rogers.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > I spoke with the Luis Nadeau and got the "no casein" answer.... but he > still won't tell me all the secrets. (I'll try feeding him strong liquor > next time :) > > As far as I know, Luis has the only Fresson lab outside of the > family-operated lab in France.. > > -Ian > > On 18/07/2012 3:31 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > > Interesting two big NO. > > > > I thought that Fresson formula is a closely guarded secret of the family > and is not known in a greater photographic community. Is the definite NO > from actually knowing the formula or guessing it from old literature? > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 17:07:58 -0400 > From: Christina Anderson > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history > Message-ID: <60FD5C48-353D-401A-838F-0386DC29C81E at montana.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > Marek, Ian, Phillipe, and others, > > I have no "in" with the Fresson family to know if casein is part of the > composition. I have numerous articles on the composition of Fresson paper, > but none say they know it for a fact, all say they are guessing it. Thus a > definitive answer can only be had from electron microscopy. > > I know of two that have done that and nothing about casein has been > mentioned, supporting Phillipe and Ian. However, in talking with a > conservator, casein would be a hard substance to spot because of its various > components. > > Here is the actual answer from the conservator: > > "The identification of casein is not a trivial matter. It is a protein so > its FTIR signature is very close to both gelatin and albumin. There is a > chance to use the XRF (the elemental analysis) when looking for phosphorus > but that is also complicated due a limited sensitivity of the XRF for light > elements (like P etc.)?.." > > The reason I brought up the initial issue, and Marek responded to it, was > that casein was proposed in an original patent of carbon tissue in > combination with gelatin. This was 1870, long before Artigue, Fresson, and > Leto papers, direct carbon tissues. I could go on and on about this > historical milieu but suffice it to say that it is a question to pose, or > outrule, at the very least, and I think a definitive "no" is somewhat > premature, given the secrecy of the formulas involved. > > My GUESS is a "no" along with Ian and Philippe, but that is not supported by > evidence YET. The much more intriguing question is how much early carbon > transfer tissue contained casein and is it a viable option today? Or did > problems present themselves with casein in its early use that made the > Autotype company abandon its use after 1870? There are hints at casein's > problems in the literature, at any rate. > > Chris > > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > On Jul 18, 2012, at 2:31 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > > > > > Interesting two big NO. > > > > I thought that Fresson formula is a closely guarded secret of the family > and is not known in a greater photographic community. Is the definite NO > from actually knowing the formula or guessing it from old literature? > > > > Even if the original Fresson formula does not contain any casein I am > still intrigued by the saw dust development of casein prints as casein likes > forced development more then gum does. I use a sprayer bottle with good > results. In reality my casein prints contain some gum (so they are > technically not pure casein) as I use watercolour pigments, not dry powder > pigments. > > > > I just need a break in the rain here to drag my saw and generate some > sawdust. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From evan at evanhughes.org Fri Jul 20 18:42:00 2012 From: evan at evanhughes.org (Evan J Hughes) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 19:42:00 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: References: <50084432.40600@evanhughes.org> Message-ID: <5009A678.8030407@evanhughes.org> Hi Chris, Very many thanks for the extract of the patent; I will try with alkaline developing baths. I have found carbon tissue is most susceptible to melting/ over softening when the tissue is being sensitised or mated to the final support; I use spirit sensitising now so do not have many issues, however I could see that tray sensitising could be quite alarming if the tissue started to dissolve in the dichromate bath. Did the patent mention what the tissue temporary support material was intended to be? I use a paper support but I vaguely recollect some of the early patents consider using a thin layer of colloid. With the colloid, it may be possible to expose from the reverse side, through the colloid support, so that the image can be developed directly (i.e. the unhardened gelatine is on the opposite side to the colloid support film). A transfer could then be made to the final image paper and the colloid layer removed. If this is the case, the tissue does not have to separate from its temporary support during the developing. When the tissue is poured onto a paper backing, the gelatine does need to melt in the developing bath so that the backing paper can be removed and the development completed. I am intrigued to see how the alkaline bath can penetrate well enough through the paper to the unhardened gelatine/casein mix in order to allow it to dissolve enough for the support paper to be stripped away; I will give it a go though. I also noticed the patent says 'Soap, however, is not absolutely necessary'. I use a soap-based glop, but I add soap not for pliability (the sugar does that), but to remove the bubbles (yes it is counter intuitive!). Does the recipe also use sugar for pliability? Best regards, Evan On 20/07/2012 01:28, Christina Anderson wrote: > Hi Evan, > Glad you are trying this! Gelatin was susceptible to melting in hot water or weather and casein would help with that, esp. in summer months. Here is part of the patent description that may be of some help. > > My third improvement consists in replacing the gelatine and its analogues in the above compounds wholly or in part by certain other organic compounds having the property of insolubility in warm water but of solubility in some other chemical agent, such as ammonia or the alkalies or salts; and the best substances I am at present acquainted with are the proteine compounds which possess the specified properties, such as caseine, legumine, modified albumen, and their congeners. A pigment compound so formed, and mixed with a bichromate, is sensitive to light; but the picture is not revealed or developed by hot water until a few drops of ammonia or other alkali possessing the like property has been added to the water. In carrying out this part of my invention I form a curd of skimmed milk, as in making cheese, by precipitating the caseine with rennet or by an acid. I collect the curd on a filter, and, after partially drying it by pressure, I dissolve the caseine or curd in dilute liquor ammonia. This solution?which should be as thick as the previously described solution of gelatine in four and a half parts of water?I use instead of a portion of the gelatine solution; that is to say, I take away part of the gelatine solution and substitute in lieu thereof an equal portion of the caseine solution. The quantity so substituted may be greatly varied. Ten per cent of the caseine solution so substituted renders the resulting compound insoluble in water until a certain quantity of ammonia has been added, and twice or three times that quantity does not prevent a workable tissue compound being formed; and in making such a pigment compound I find it best to mix the caseine solution with that of the soap, and add the two together to the gelatine. Soap, however, is not absolutely necessary, as the caseine itself gives flexibility to the tissue, and thus supersedes the necessity of employing the soap... > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > On Jul 19, 2012, at 11:30 AM, Evan J Hughes wrote: > >> Hi Chris, >> >> I hope to have another go at adding casein to carbon tissue over the next few weeks, but on thinking about the behaviour of casein, do you know what the advantage of adding casein to carbon tissue was thought to be? >> >> My first thought was that it may make the tissue more sensitive and therefore expose faster, but otherwise, many of the properties of casein are not necessarily an advantage, i.e. it is important to have a recipe that develops easily in warm rather than hot water to reduce issues with bubbling; the unexposed tissue needs to melt very easily to allow the support paper to be stripped away. I do not see how the casein may help with adhesion during transfer, although it can make a very effective glue. >> >> I plan to try a few glop mixes ranging over 10% to 30% of casein; have you noticed how much pigment was used in the gelatine-casein carbon tissues? I wonder if the pigment quantity may be very high so that a very thin, high contrast tissue can be poured; rapid automated manufacture is then much more simple which would be important for mass-produced tissue. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Evan >> -- http://www.concretebanana.co.uk http://blog.concretebanana.co.uk From zphoto at montana.net Fri Jul 20 18:54:36 2012 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 12:54:36 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: <5009A678.8030407@evanhughes.org> References: <50084432.40600@evanhughes.org> <5009A678.8030407@evanhughes.org> Message-ID: <01304CCC-4FD1-4951-BF8D-BE98FA522C89@montana.net> Hi Evan, I was not researching carbon so did not pay any attention to the support. The soap in Johnson's patent was in place of the sugar. Hope this helps. My guess would be (as Weston Naef said to me while we were both sitting in the GEH library researching so I bent his ear for a bit) that if casein is not included in the carbon formula (or Fresson for that matter) it was because there was an issue with it that made it not work as well as other substances. But heck, if it works for you, pretty soon we'll see Evanotypes! BTW what soap are you using? I think he was using potassium oleate, if that is the correct chemical name. I don't know if you've researched this book, but it is available at abebooks.com and is a GEM. Patents for Inventions, Abridgments of specifications relating to photography.NY: Arno Press, 1979. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Jul 20, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Evan J Hughes wrote: > Hi Chris, > > Very many thanks for the extract of the patent; I will try with alkaline developing baths. I have found carbon tissue is most susceptible to melting/ over softening when the tissue is being sensitised or mated to the final support; I use spirit sensitising now so do not have many issues, however I could see that tray sensitising could be quite alarming if the tissue started to dissolve in the dichromate bath. > > Did the patent mention what the tissue temporary support material was intended to be? I use a paper support but I vaguely recollect some of the early patents consider using a thin layer of colloid. With the colloid, it may be possible to expose from the reverse side, through the colloid support, so that the image can be developed directly (i.e. the unhardened gelatine is on the opposite side to the colloid support film). A transfer could then be made to the final image paper and the colloid layer removed. If this is the case, the tissue does not have to separate from its temporary support during the developing. When the tissue is poured onto a paper backing, the gelatine does need to melt in the developing bath so that the backing paper can be removed and the development completed. I am intrigued to see how the alkaline bath can penetrate well enough through the paper to the unhardened gelatine/casein mix in order to allow it to dissolve enough for the support paper to be stripped away; I will give it a go though. > > I also noticed the patent says 'Soap, however, is not absolutely necessary'. I use a soap-based glop, but I add soap not for pliability (the sugar does that), but to remove the bubbles (yes it is counter intuitive!). Does the recipe also use sugar for pliability? > > > Best regards, > > Evan > > > > On 20/07/2012 01:28, Christina Anderson wrote: >> Hi Evan, >> Glad you are trying this! Gelatin was susceptible to melting in hot water or weather and casein would help with that, esp. in summer months. Here is part of the patent description that may be of some help. >> >> My third improvement consists in replacing the gelatine and its analogues in the above compounds wholly or in part by certain other organic compounds having the property of insolubility in warm water but of solubility in some other chemical agent, such as ammonia or the alkalies or salts; and the best substances I am at present acquainted with are the proteine compounds which possess the specified properties, such as caseine, legumine, modified albumen, and their congeners. A pigment compound so formed, and mixed with a bichromate, is sensitive to light; but the picture is not revealed or developed by hot water until a few drops of ammonia or other alkali possessing the like property has been added to the water. In carrying out this part of my invention I form a curd of skimmed milk, as in making cheese, by precipitating the caseine with rennet or by an acid. I collect the curd on a filter, and, after partially drying it by pressure, I dissolve the caseine or curd in dilute liquor ammonia. This solution?which should be as thick as the previously described solution of gelatine in four and a half parts of water?I use instead of a portion of the gelatine solution; that is to say, I take away part of the gelatine solution and substitute in lieu thereof an equal portion of the caseine solution. The quantity so substituted may be greatly varied. Ten per cent of the caseine solution so substituted renders the resulting compound insoluble in water until a certain quantity of ammonia has been added, and twice or three times that quantity does not prevent a workable tissue compound being formed; and in making such a pigment compound I find it best to mix the caseine solution with that of the soap, and add the two together to the gelatine. Soap, however, is not absolutely necessary, as the caseine itself gives flexibility to the tissue, and thus supersedes the necessity of employing the soap... >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> > >> On Jul 19, 2012, at 11:30 AM, Evan J Hughes wrote: >> >>> Hi Chris, >>> >>> I hope to have another go at adding casein to carbon tissue over the next few weeks, but on thinking about the behaviour of casein, do you know what the advantage of adding casein to carbon tissue was thought to be? >>> >>> My first thought was that it may make the tissue more sensitive and therefore expose faster, but otherwise, many of the properties of casein are not necessarily an advantage, i.e. it is important to have a recipe that develops easily in warm rather than hot water to reduce issues with bubbling; the unexposed tissue needs to melt very easily to allow the support paper to be stripped away. I do not see how the casein may help with adhesion during transfer, although it can make a very effective glue. >>> >>> I plan to try a few glop mixes ranging over 10% to 30% of casein; have you noticed how much pigment was used in the gelatine-casein carbon tissues? I wonder if the pigment quantity may be very high so that a very thin, high contrast tissue can be poured; rapid automated manufacture is then much more simple which would be important for mass-produced tissue. >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Evan >>> > > > -- > http://www.concretebanana.co.uk > http://blog.concretebanana.co.uk > > From evan at evanhughes.org Fri Jul 20 19:15:45 2012 From: evan at evanhughes.org (Evan J Hughes) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 20:15:45 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: <01304CCC-4FD1-4951-BF8D-BE98FA522C89@montana.net> References: <50084432.40600@evanhughes.org> <5009A678.8030407@evanhughes.org> <01304CCC-4FD1-4951-BF8D-BE98FA522C89@montana.net> Message-ID: <5009AE61.8000409@evanhughes.org> Hi Chris, Thanks for the heads-up on the book; I will hunt it out. I use soap that is primarily made from olive oil (I make my own soap too so I have plenty). The key is to use real soap from saponified oil, rather than modern detergents that may say they are soap. I have also used soap-flakes designed for clothes washing in the past too, however it is getting more difficult to find real soap; the detergents are much cheaper to manufacture and so as consumers we are not being given much choice these days. I use the soap to counteract the effects of the oil in the soot that I grind for the pigment. The oils and tars in the soot seem to react with the soap to kill all the bubbles in the glop; the result is that it is like pouring liquid silk when making tissues. If you add soap with a non-oily pigment (or do not add oil), the glop can foam like crazy and does not make good tissue. I assume the availability of high-quality oil-free pigment is one reason that soap-based glop fell out of favour and practitioners turned to IPA for controlling bubbles. I still use sugar so that the tissues melt easily and develop well at a lower temperature (my sugar:gelatine ratio can be as high as 1:1 too). I poured some gelatine tissues a while ago with acetate as a backing support. When the tissue dried, it came clean away from the acetate to form a 'true' unsupported carbon tissue. I have just sensitised a piece of this tissue (carefully!) to see if I can make a print without using any backing paper support. If so, it may be a route to using the gelatine/casein mix easily. Best regards, Evan On 20/07/2012 19:54, Christina Anderson wrote: > Hi Evan, > I was not researching carbon so did not pay any attention to the support. > The soap in Johnson's patent was in place of the sugar. > Hope this helps. My guess would be (as Weston Naef said to me while we were both sitting in the GEH library researching so I bent his ear for a bit) that if casein is not included in the carbon formula (or Fresson for that matter) it was because there was an issue with it that made it not work as well as other substances. But heck, if it works for you, pretty soon we'll see Evanotypes! > BTW what soap are you using? I think he was using potassium oleate, if that is the correct chemical name. > I don't know if you've researched this book, but it is available at abebooks.com and is a GEM. Patents for Inventions, Abridgments of specifications relating to photography.NY: Arno Press, 1979. > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > On Jul 20, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Evan J Hughes wrote: > >> Hi Chris, >> >> Very many thanks for the extract of the patent; I will try with alkaline developing baths. I have found carbon tissue is most susceptible to melting/ over softening when the tissue is being sensitised or mated to the final support; I use spirit sensitising now so do not have many issues, however I could see that tray sensitising could be quite alarming if the tissue started to dissolve in the dichromate bath. >> >> Did the patent mention what the tissue temporary support material was intended to be? I use a paper support but I vaguely recollect some of the early patents consider using a thin layer of colloid. With the colloid, it may be possible to expose from the reverse side, through the colloid support, so that the image can be developed directly (i.e. the unhardened gelatine is on the opposite side to the colloid support film). A transfer could then be made to the final image paper and the colloid layer removed. If this is the case, the tissue does not have to separate from its temporary support during the developing. When the tissue is poured onto a paper backing, the gelatine does need to melt in the developing bath so that the backing paper can be removed and the development completed. I am intrigued to see how the alkaline bath can penetrate well enough through the paper to the unhardened gelatine/casein mix in order to allow it to dissolve enough for the support paper to be stripped away; I will give it a go though. >> >> I also noticed the patent says 'Soap, however, is not absolutely necessary'. I use a soap-based glop, but I add soap not for pliability (the sugar does that), but to remove the bubbles (yes it is counter intuitive!). Does the recipe also use sugar for pliability? >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Evan >> >> >> >> On 20/07/2012 01:28, Christina Anderson wrote: >>> Hi Evan, >>> Glad you are trying this! Gelatin was susceptible to melting in hot water or weather and casein would help with that, esp. in summer months. Here is part of the patent description that may be of some help. >>> >>> My third improvement consists in replacing the gelatine and its analogues in the above compounds wholly or in part by certain other organic compounds having the property of insolubility in warm water but of solubility in some other chemical agent, such as ammonia or the alkalies or salts; and the best substances I am at present acquainted with are the proteine compounds which possess the specified properties, such as caseine, legumine, modified albumen, and their congeners. A pigment compound so formed, and mixed with a bichromate, is sensitive to light; but the picture is not revealed or developed by hot water until a few drops of ammonia or other alkali possessing the like property has been added to the water. In carrying out this part of my invention I form a curd of skimmed milk, as in making cheese, by precipitating the caseine with rennet or by an acid. I collect the curd on a filter, and, after partially drying it by pressure, I dissolve the caseine or curd in dilute liquor ammonia. This solution?which should be as thick as the previously described solution of gelatine in four and a half parts of water?I use instead of a portion of the gelatine solution; that is to say, I take away part of the gelatine solution and substitute in lieu thereof an equal portion of the caseine solution. The quantity so substituted may be greatly varied. Ten per cent of the caseine solution so substituted renders the resulting compound insoluble in water until a certain quantity of ammonia has been added, and twice or three times that quantity does not prevent a workable tissue compound being formed; and in making such a pigment compound I find it best to mix the caseine solution with that of the soap, and add the two together to the gelatine. Soap, however, is not absolutely necessary, as the caseine itself gives flexibility to the tissue, and thus supersedes the necessity of employing the soap... >>> Christina Z. Anderson >>> christinaZanderson.com >>> >>> On Jul 19, 2012, at 11:30 AM, Evan J Hughes wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Chris, >>>> >>>> I hope to have another go at adding casein to carbon tissue over the next few weeks, but on thinking about the behaviour of casein, do you know what the advantage of adding casein to carbon tissue was thought to be? >>>> >>>> My first thought was that it may make the tissue more sensitive and therefore expose faster, but otherwise, many of the properties of casein are not necessarily an advantage, i.e. it is important to have a recipe that develops easily in warm rather than hot water to reduce issues with bubbling; the unexposed tissue needs to melt very easily to allow the support paper to be stripped away. I do not see how the casein may help with adhesion during transfer, although it can make a very effective glue. >>>> >>>> I plan to try a few glop mixes ranging over 10% to 30% of casein; have you noticed how much pigment was used in the gelatine-casein carbon tissues? I wonder if the pigment quantity may be very high so that a very thin, high contrast tissue can be poured; rapid automated manufacture is then much more simple which would be important for mass-produced tissue. >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Evan >>>> >> >> -- >> http://www.concretebanana.co.uk >> http://blog.concretebanana.co.uk >> >> > -- http://www.concretebanana.co.uk http://blog.concretebanana.co.uk From evan at evanhughes.org Sun Jul 22 09:44:01 2012 From: evan at evanhughes.org (Evan J Hughes) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2012 10:44:01 +0100 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: <5009AE61.8000409@evanhughes.org> References: <50084432.40600@evanhughes.org> <5009A678.8030407@evanhughes.org> <01304CCC-4FD1-4951-BF8D-BE98FA522C89@montana.net> <5009AE61.8000409@evanhughes.org> Message-ID: <500BCB61.3010902@evanhughes.org> Hi Chris, I have had a chance to experiment a little with the gelatine/casein carbon tissue and have noticed the following: Advantages 1. the casein does add flexibility to the tissue so any soap/sugar can be reduced which helps the tissue to dry out much more thoroughly after sensitising. 2. if the tissue is exposed in front of a hot UV source such as the sun or an arc-light, it will be far less likely to melt due to the casein; the additional dryness from point 1 also helps here as there is much less moisture in the tissue. Disadvantages 1. the tissue temporary support must either be removable, or very thin paper as in development, the alkaline solution needs to be able to reach the unexposed tissue in order to allow the backing sheet to be removed. It is possible to pour a tissue onto waxed glass, and then remove it as a sheet with no support paper. I have made a print this way (with gelatine only tissue) however the dimensional stability of the sensitised sheet of tissue is very poor and the image became distorted. If tissue is poured onto a thin transparent support (and remains stuck to it), the exposure can be made through the support material and the tissue will develop very well in the alkaline bath as the unhardened surface is exposed to the alkali directly. The tissue is then mated to the final support after development as in the double transfer method. I have tried this approach too with a gelatine only mix and the problem is that the pigment must be ultrafine and of even particle size; the tissue is poured onto the transparent sheet and the large pigment particles (soot in my case) settle under gravity to the lowest point. This lowest point is now the surface that gets most exposure and therefore the image develops with a fine layer of rough large pigment particles across its surface. The problem is compounded as when casein is added, the glop takes much longer to gel when pouring tissues and so the pigment has much more time to settle out. 2. When the support paper has been removed and development is in progress, the unexposed tissue 'erodes' rather than melts away as the alkaline solution dissolves it slowly. With gelatine only tissue, it absorbs lots of water in the mating bath and then the heat of the development water melts the gelatine through the bulk of the tissue rapidly so the highlight areas lose large quantities of molten gelatine in a short space of time. Thus the print develops quickly. The casein tissue also absorbs water very well in the mating bath (even with up to 50% casein, water absorption and subsequent final support adhesion were not an issue), but then in the development bath, the tissue is already saturated with Ph neutral solution so it is only the exposed surface of the tissue that can be influenced by the alkalinity. The print takes much longer to develop and the highlight detail development is *very* uneven and blotchy. If the transparent substrate method of point 1 above is used however, the development would be much better as there is no mating bath and the tissue will get its first soaking in the alkaline solution. 3. the alkaline bath not only dissolves the transferred tissue, it also slowly dissolves the sizing on the paper that the tissue is mated too (even though I use gelatine hardened with formalin). If development takes too long, the image can start to break free from the paper as the size underneath the image is being broken down. I also had problems with the pigment that was suspended in the development water stained the paper in the areas where the sizing had been degraded. It may mean that a more alkaline tolerant sizing is needed. Advantage or Disadvantage 1. The alkaline nature of the bath keeps etching away at the print the longer it is left, so it does appear to have a contrast reducing effect; in my case with thin negatives, this is undesirable, but it could be useful for others. In conclusion, there does seem to be a practical way to make gelatine/casein carbon tissue work: 1. pour the glop with very fine and very uniform pigment (such as Indian Ink) onto a thin transparent substrate (thicker substrates will degrade image sharpness) 2. expose the tissue through the transparent substrate base 3. develop in the alkaline solution (the transparent substrate and any sizing on it must be alkaline tolerant) 4. mate to the final support paper using the techniques of double transfer. As my soot pigment is course and non-uniform, it does prevent the process being unusable unfortunately so I think I will stick to gelatine only for the carbon work, but continue with casein instead of gum for other printing. The issues with using the process probably are good pointers as to why casein never really took off as an ingredient of carbon tissue. Best regards, Evan On 20/07/2012 20:15, Evan J Hughes wrote: > Hi Chris, > > Thanks for the heads-up on the book; I will hunt it out. > > I use soap that is primarily made from olive oil (I make my own > soap too so I have plenty). The key is to use real soap from > saponified oil, rather than modern detergents that may say they are > soap. I have also used soap-flakes designed for clothes washing in > the past too, however it is getting more difficult to find real soap; > the detergents are much cheaper to manufacture and so as consumers we > are not being given much choice these days. > > I use the soap to counteract the effects of the oil in the soot > that I grind for the pigment. The oils and tars in the soot seem to > react with the soap to kill all the bubbles in the glop; the result is > that it is like pouring liquid silk when making tissues. If you add > soap with a non-oily pigment (or do not add oil), the glop can foam > like crazy and does not make good tissue. I assume the availability of > high-quality oil-free pigment is one reason that soap-based glop fell > out of favour and practitioners turned to IPA for controlling > bubbles. I still use sugar so that the tissues melt easily and > develop well at a lower temperature (my sugar:gelatine ratio can be as > high as 1:1 too). > > I poured some gelatine tissues a while ago with acetate as a > backing support. When the tissue dried, it came clean away from the > acetate to form a 'true' unsupported carbon tissue. I have just > sensitised a piece of this tissue (carefully!) to see if I can make a > print without using any backing paper support. If so, it may be a > route to using the gelatine/casein mix easily. > > Best regards, > > Evan > > > On 20/07/2012 19:54, Christina Anderson wrote: >> Hi Evan, >> I was not researching carbon so did not pay any attention to the >> support. >> The soap in Johnson's patent was in place of the sugar. >> Hope this helps. My guess would be (as Weston Naef said to me while >> we were both sitting in the GEH library researching so I bent his ear >> for a bit) that if casein is not included in the carbon formula (or >> Fresson for that matter) it was because there was an issue with it >> that made it not work as well as other substances. But heck, if it >> works for you, pretty soon we'll see Evanotypes! >> BTW what soap are you using? I think he was using potassium oleate, >> if that is the correct chemical name. >> I don't know if you've researched this book, but it is available at >> abebooks.com and is a GEM. Patents for Inventions, Abridgments of >> specifications relating to photography.NY: Arno Press, 1979. >> Chris >> >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> >> On Jul 20, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Evan J Hughes wrote: >> >>> Hi Chris, >>> >>> Very many thanks for the extract of the patent; I will try with >>> alkaline developing baths. I have found carbon tissue is most >>> susceptible to melting/ over softening when the tissue is being >>> sensitised or mated to the final support; I use spirit sensitising >>> now so do not have many issues, however I could see that tray >>> sensitising could be quite alarming if the tissue started to >>> dissolve in the dichromate bath. >>> >>> Did the patent mention what the tissue temporary support material >>> was intended to be? I use a paper support but I vaguely recollect >>> some of the early patents consider using a thin layer of colloid. >>> With the colloid, it may be possible to expose from the reverse >>> side, through the colloid support, so that the image can be >>> developed directly (i.e. the unhardened gelatine is on the opposite >>> side to the colloid support film). A transfer could then be made to >>> the final image paper and the colloid layer removed. If this is the >>> case, the tissue does not have to separate from its temporary >>> support during the developing. When the tissue is poured onto a >>> paper backing, the gelatine does need to melt in the developing bath >>> so that the backing paper can be removed and the development >>> completed. I am intrigued to see how the alkaline bath can >>> penetrate well enough through the paper to the unhardened >>> gelatine/casein mix in order to allow it to dissolve enough for the >>> support paper to be stripped away; I will give it a go though. >>> >>> I also noticed the patent says 'Soap, however, is not absolutely >>> necessary'. I use a soap-based glop, but I add soap not for >>> pliability (the sugar does that), but to remove the bubbles (yes it >>> is counter intuitive!). Does the recipe also use sugar for >>> pliability? >>> >>> >>> Best regards, >>> >>> Evan >>> >>> >>> >>> On 20/07/2012 01:28, Christina Anderson wrote: >>>> Hi Evan, >>>> Glad you are trying this! Gelatin was susceptible to melting in hot >>>> water or weather and casein would help with that, esp. in summer >>>> months. Here is part of the patent description that may be of some >>>> help. >>>> >>>> My third improvement consists in replacing the gelatine and its >>>> analogues in the above compounds wholly or in part by certain other >>>> organic compounds having the property of insolubility in warm water >>>> but of solubility in some other chemical agent, such as ammonia or >>>> the alkalies or salts; and the best substances I am at present >>>> acquainted with are the proteine compounds which possess the >>>> specified properties, such as caseine, legumine, modified albumen, >>>> and their congeners. A pigment compound so formed, and mixed with a >>>> bichromate, is sensitive to light; but the picture is not revealed >>>> or developed by hot water until a few drops of ammonia or other >>>> alkali possessing the like property has been added to the water. In >>>> carrying out this part of my invention I form a curd of skimmed >>>> milk, as in making cheese, by precipitating the caseine with rennet >>>> or by an acid. I collect the curd on a filter, and, after partially >>>> drying it by pressure, I dissolve the caseine or curd in dilute >>>> liquor ammonia. This solution?which should be as thick as the >>>> previously described solution of gelatine in four and a half parts >>>> of water?I use instead of a portion of the gelatine solution; that >>>> is to say, I take away part of the gelatine solution and substitute >>>> in lieu thereof an equal portion of the caseine solution. The >>>> quantity so substituted may be greatly varied. Ten per cent of the >>>> caseine solution so substituted renders the resulting compound >>>> insoluble in water until a certain quantity of ammonia has been >>>> added, and twice or three times that quantity does not prevent a >>>> workable tissue compound being formed; and in making such a pigment >>>> compound I find it best to mix the caseine solution with that of >>>> the soap, and add the two together to the gelatine. Soap, however, >>>> is not absolutely necessary, as the caseine itself gives >>>> flexibility to the tissue, and thus supersedes the necessity of >>>> employing the soap... >>>> Christina Z. Anderson >>>> christinaZanderson.com >>>> >>>> On Jul 19, 2012, at 11:30 AM, Evan J Hughes wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Chris, >>>>> >>>>> I hope to have another go at adding casein to carbon tissue >>>>> over the next few weeks, but on thinking about the behaviour of >>>>> casein, do you know what the advantage of adding casein to carbon >>>>> tissue was thought to be? >>>>> >>>>> My first thought was that it may make the tissue more sensitive >>>>> and therefore expose faster, but otherwise, many of the properties >>>>> of casein are not necessarily an advantage, i.e. it is important >>>>> to have a recipe that develops easily in warm rather than hot >>>>> water to reduce issues with bubbling; the unexposed tissue needs >>>>> to melt very easily to allow the support paper to be stripped >>>>> away. I do not see how the casein may help with adhesion during >>>>> transfer, although it can make a very effective glue. >>>>> >>>>> I plan to try a few glop mixes ranging over 10% to 30% of >>>>> casein; have you noticed how much pigment was used in the >>>>> gelatine-casein carbon tissues? I wonder if the pigment quantity >>>>> may be very high so that a very thin, high contrast tissue can be >>>>> poured; rapid automated manufacture is then much more simple which >>>>> would be important for mass-produced tissue. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards, >>>>> >>>>> Evan >>>>> >>> >>> -- >>> http://www.concretebanana.co.uk >>> http://blog.concretebanana.co.uk >>> >>> >> > > -- http://www.concretebanana.co.uk http://blog.concretebanana.co.uk From zphoto at montana.net Wed Jul 25 16:43:48 2012 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 09:43:48 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history In-Reply-To: <500BCB61.3010902@evanhughes.org> References: <50084432.40600@evanhughes.org> <5009A678.8030407@evanhughes.org> <01304CCC-4FD1-4951-BF8D-BE98FA522C89@montana.net> <5009AE61.8000409@evanhughes.org> <500BCB61.3010902@evanhughes.org> Message-ID: <5E832C99-D704-4B3A-B48B-461828C4B2F8@montana.net> Hi Evan, Sorry so long to respond. I've been traveling and offline at times. You are a champ to try this! I can also imagine that casein's qualities in both carbon and gum can be utilized in combo to advantage. I know that when I use watercolor pigment (which has gum in it) along with casein it is much easier to develop than straight casein and powder pigment but is hardier than straight gum, for instance. Also more delicate grain. I just haven't had the time to quantify this, this summer with my traveling schedule. Thanks so much for reporting your experience, below. It gives me more stuff to ponder. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Jul 22, 2012, at 2:44 AM, Evan J Hughes wrote: > Hi Chris, > > I have had a chance to experiment a little with the gelatine/casein carbon tissue and have noticed the following: > > Advantages > > 1. the casein does add flexibility to the tissue so any soap/sugar can be reduced which helps the tissue to dry out much more thoroughly after sensitising. > 2. if the tissue is exposed in front of a hot UV source such as the sun or an arc-light, it will be far less likely to melt due to the casein; the additional dryness from point 1 also helps here as there is much less moisture in the tissue. > > Disadvantages > > 1. the tissue temporary support must either be removable, or very thin paper as in development, the alkaline solution needs to be able to reach the unexposed tissue in order to allow the backing sheet to be removed. It is possible to pour a tissue onto waxed glass, and then remove it as a sheet with no support paper. I have made a print this way (with gelatine only tissue) however the dimensional stability of the sensitised sheet of tissue is very poor and the image became distorted. If tissue is poured onto a thin transparent support (and remains stuck to it), the exposure can be made through the support material and the tissue will develop very well in the alkaline bath as the unhardened surface is exposed to the alkali directly. The tissue is then mated to the final support after development as in the double transfer method. I have tried this approach too with a gelatine only mix and the problem is that the pigment must be ultrafine and of even particle size; the tissue is poured onto the transparent sheet and the large pigment particles (soot in my case) settle under gravity to the lowest point. This lowest point is now the surface that gets most exposure and therefore the image develops with a fine layer of rough large pigment particles across its surface. The problem is compounded as when casein is added, the glop takes much longer to gel when pouring tissues and so the pigment has much more time to settle out. > 2. When the support paper has been removed and development is in progress, the unexposed tissue 'erodes' rather than melts away as the alkaline solution dissolves it slowly. With gelatine only tissue, it absorbs lots of water in the mating bath and then the heat of the development water melts the gelatine through the bulk of the tissue rapidly so the highlight areas lose large quantities of molten gelatine in a short space of time. Thus the print develops quickly. The casein tissue also absorbs water very well in the mating bath (even with up to 50% casein, water absorption and subsequent final support adhesion were not an issue), but then in the development bath, the tissue is already saturated with Ph neutral solution so it is only the exposed surface of the tissue that can be influenced by the alkalinity. The print takes much longer to develop and the highlight detail development is *very* uneven and blotchy. If the transparent substrate method of point 1 above is used however, the development would be much better as there is no mating bath and the tissue will get its first soaking in the alkaline solution. > 3. the alkaline bath not only dissolves the transferred tissue, it also slowly dissolves the sizing on the paper that the tissue is mated too (even though I use gelatine hardened with formalin). If development takes too long, the image can start to break free from the paper as the size underneath the image is being broken down. I also had problems with the pigment that was suspended in the development water stained the paper in the areas where the sizing had been degraded. It may mean that a more alkaline tolerant sizing is needed. > > Advantage or Disadvantage > > 1. The alkaline nature of the bath keeps etching away at the print the longer it is left, so it does appear to have a contrast reducing effect; in my case with thin negatives, this is undesirable, but it could be useful for others. > > In conclusion, there does seem to be a practical way to make gelatine/casein carbon tissue work: > > 1. pour the glop with very fine and very uniform pigment (such as Indian Ink) onto a thin transparent substrate (thicker substrates will degrade image sharpness) > 2. expose the tissue through the transparent substrate base > 3. develop in the alkaline solution (the transparent substrate and any sizing on it must be alkaline tolerant) > 4. mate to the final support paper using the techniques of double transfer. > > As my soot pigment is course and non-uniform, it does prevent the process being unusable unfortunately so I think I will stick to gelatine only for the carbon work, but continue with casein instead of gum for other printing. The issues with using the process probably are good pointers as to why casein never really took off as an ingredient of carbon tissue. > > Best regards, > > Evan > > > > > On 20/07/2012 20:15, Evan J Hughes wrote: >> Hi Chris, >> >> Thanks for the heads-up on the book; I will hunt it out. >> >> I use soap that is primarily made from olive oil (I make my own soap too so I have plenty). The key is to use real soap from saponified oil, rather than modern detergents that may say they are soap. I have also used soap-flakes designed for clothes washing in the past too, however it is getting more difficult to find real soap; the detergents are much cheaper to manufacture and so as consumers we are not being given much choice these days. >> >> I use the soap to counteract the effects of the oil in the soot that I grind for the pigment. The oils and tars in the soot seem to react with the soap to kill all the bubbles in the glop; the result is that it is like pouring liquid silk when making tissues. If you add soap with a non-oily pigment (or do not add oil), the glop can foam like crazy and does not make good tissue. I assume the availability of high-quality oil-free pigment is one reason that soap-based glop fell out of favour and practitioners turned to IPA for controlling bubbles. I still use sugar so that the tissues melt easily and develop well at a lower temperature (my sugar:gelatine ratio can be as high as 1:1 too). >> >> I poured some gelatine tissues a while ago with acetate as a backing support. When the tissue dried, it came clean away from the acetate to form a 'true' unsupported carbon tissue. I have just sensitised a piece of this tissue (carefully!) to see if I can make a print without using any backing paper support. If so, it may be a route to using the gelatine/casein mix easily. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Evan >> >> >> On 20/07/2012 19:54, Christina Anderson wrote: >>> Hi Evan, >>> I was not researching carbon so did not pay any attention to the support. >>> The soap in Johnson's patent was in place of the sugar. >>> Hope this helps. My guess would be (as Weston Naef said to me while we were both sitting in the GEH library researching so I bent his ear for a bit) that if casein is not included in the carbon formula (or Fresson for that matter) it was because there was an issue with it that made it not work as well as other substances. But heck, if it works for you, pretty soon we'll see Evanotypes! >>> BTW what soap are you using? I think he was using potassium oleate, if that is the correct chemical name. >>> I don't know if you've researched this book, but it is available at abebooks.com and is a GEM. Patents for Inventions, Abridgments of specifications relating to photography.NY: Arno Press, 1979. >>> Chris >>> >>> Christina Z. Anderson >>> christinaZanderson.com >>> >>> On Jul 20, 2012, at 12:42 PM, Evan J Hughes wrote: >>> >>>> Hi Chris, >>>> >>>> Very many thanks for the extract of the patent; I will try with alkaline developing baths. I have found carbon tissue is most susceptible to melting/ over softening when the tissue is being sensitised or mated to the final support; I use spirit sensitising now so do not have many issues, however I could see that tray sensitising could be quite alarming if the tissue started to dissolve in the dichromate bath. >>>> >>>> Did the patent mention what the tissue temporary support material was intended to be? I use a paper support but I vaguely recollect some of the early patents consider using a thin layer of colloid. With the colloid, it may be possible to expose from the reverse side, through the colloid support, so that the image can be developed directly (i.e. the unhardened gelatine is on the opposite side to the colloid support film). A transfer could then be made to the final image paper and the colloid layer removed. If this is the case, the tissue does not have to separate from its temporary support during the developing. When the tissue is poured onto a paper backing, the gelatine does need to melt in the developing bath so that the backing paper can be removed and the development completed. I am intrigued to see how the alkaline bath can penetrate well enough through the paper to the unhardened gelatine/casein mix in order to allow it to dissolve enough for the support paper to be stripped away; I will give it a go though. >>>> >>>> I also noticed the patent says 'Soap, however, is not absolutely necessary'. I use a soap-based glop, but I add soap not for pliability (the sugar does that), but to remove the bubbles (yes it is counter intuitive!). Does the recipe also use sugar for pliability? >>>> >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> >>>> Evan >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 20/07/2012 01:28, Christina Anderson wrote: >>>>> Hi Evan, >>>>> Glad you are trying this! Gelatin was susceptible to melting in hot water or weather and casein would help with that, esp. in summer months. Here is part of the patent description that may be of some help. >>>>> >>>>> My third improvement consists in replacing the gelatine and its analogues in the above compounds wholly or in part by certain other organic compounds having the property of insolubility in warm water but of solubility in some other chemical agent, such as ammonia or the alkalies or salts; and the best substances I am at present acquainted with are the proteine compounds which possess the specified properties, such as caseine, legumine, modified albumen, and their congeners. A pigment compound so formed, and mixed with a bichromate, is sensitive to light; but the picture is not revealed or developed by hot water until a few drops of ammonia or other alkali possessing the like property has been added to the water. In carrying out this part of my invention I form a curd of skimmed milk, as in making cheese, by precipitating the caseine with rennet or by an acid. I collect the curd on a filter, and, after partially drying it by pressure, I dissolve the caseine or curd in dilute liquor ammonia. This solution?which should be as thick as the previously described solution of gelatine in four and a half parts of water?I use instead of a portion of the gelatine solution; that is to say, I take away part of the gelatine solution and substitute in lieu thereof an equal portion of the caseine solution. The quantity so substituted may be greatly varied. Ten per cent of the caseine solution so substituted renders the resulting compound insoluble in water until a certain quantity of ammonia has been added, and twice or three times that quantity does not prevent a workable tissue compound being formed; and in making such a pigment compound I find it best to mix the caseine solution with that of the soap, and add the two together to the gelatine. Soap, however, is not absolutely necessary, as the caseine itself gives flexibility to the tissue, and thus supersedes the necessity of employing the soap... >>>>> Christina Z. Anderson >>>>> christinaZanderson.com >>>>> >>>>> On Jul 19, 2012, at 11:30 AM, Evan J Hughes wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Chris, >>>>>> >>>>>> I hope to have another go at adding casein to carbon tissue over the next few weeks, but on thinking about the behaviour of casein, do you know what the advantage of adding casein to carbon tissue was thought to be? >>>>>> >>>>>> My first thought was that it may make the tissue more sensitive and therefore expose faster, but otherwise, many of the properties of casein are not necessarily an advantage, i.e. it is important to have a recipe that develops easily in warm rather than hot water to reduce issues with bubbling; the unexposed tissue needs to melt very easily to allow the support paper to be stripped away. I do not see how the casein may help with adhesion during transfer, although it can make a very effective glue. >>>>>> >>>>>> I plan to try a few glop mixes ranging over 10% to 30% of casein; have you noticed how much pigment was used in the gelatine-casein carbon tissues? I wonder if the pigment quantity may be very high so that a very thin, high contrast tissue can be poured; rapid automated manufacture is then much more simple which would be important for mass-produced tissue. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>> >>>>>> Evan >>>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> http://www.concretebanana.co.uk >>>> http://blog.concretebanana.co.uk >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > > > -- > http://www.concretebanana.co.uk > http://blog.concretebanana.co.uk > From jean.daubas at wanadoo.fr Fri Jul 27 08:52:54 2012 From: jean.daubas at wanadoo.fr (Jean Daubas) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2012 10:52:54 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Fumed Silica, platinum printing In-Reply-To: <3475BC6B-6CBF-4E03-95CE-0A568482CDE4@aol.com> References: <36585666-275C-47CD-92E3-7C881218D75D@shaw.ca><19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A7240CFED8@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern> <3475BC6B-6CBF-4E03-95CE-0A568482CDE4@aol.com> Message-ID: Hi all, As the subject has been discussed on our list about 3 months ago, you will maybe be interested by this post on David Chows' "Art of Platinum printing" blog : http://artofplatinum.wordpress.com/2012/07/27/fumed-silica-alumni-for-platinumpalladium-printing/ Photographic cheers from France! Jean