From zphoto at montana.net Tue May 1 00:15:40 2012 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 18:15:40 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: ziatype In-Reply-To: <8ea87.f628a75.3ccb1e98@aol.com> References: <8ea87.f628a75.3ccb1e98@aol.com> Message-ID: <55DCD8EA-35A9-40EE-8C66-0FC64CAF4D33@montana.net> Thanks, Joe and Loris and others offlist, I was able to locate the ziatype manual from another listee. Good to know the name isn't a big issue, just one of those "dustups" that the list is known to participate in. I had a chapter on it in my alt cond. book and in working on the revision of that, I was just really wanting to know if I should keep that chapter in and revise it, but after reading up and all over on the process I realize it is still quite intriguing. It may even be intriguing enough to replace pt/pd in my alt course with it, insofar as it is cheaper, and POP. It seems the fumed silica is another "hygroscopic" ingredient as is the lithium pd and the cesium pd, all serving to keep moisture in the layer to make a DOP more POP is what I gather from my reading. I have some AFO here that I've had a few years. Funny, it is packaged in a semi-opaque plastic container...guess it is not that light sensitive... Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Apr 26, 2012, at 3:56 PM, JoeSarff at aol.com wrote: > Hi Chris: > > Having lived in New Mexico now for over five years, I'm going to take a > poke a at your questions. > > The Zia, or sun symbol, is as ubiquitous to New Mexico and it's people as > oranges are to Florida, movies to California or the Yankees to New Yorkers. > It's everywhere, from the state flag, to my drivers license to nik-nak's > sold at tourist traps. To call the process the Ziatype (referring to solar > printing out) is no big deal, not politically incorrect and an insult or > affront to no one. > > I believe the process was always a subset of the more widely practiced > 'regular' platinum/palladium develop out process. It was, I believe, more for > people who had negs for more conventional silver printing who wanted to see > them in platinum. > > As to the book, books come in and out of print all the time. I believe > Carl Weese actually printed that one, not B&S. I would look to him for > answers. > > Finally, as to the chemicals, 505/474-0890 and ask Leah or Dana. I really > don't know. > > All the best > > Joe Sarff > > > > In a message dated 4/26/2012 9:15:25 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > zphoto at montana.net writes: > > Dear All, > > Over the last five months I have managed to slug through all the archived > emails from the list's inception. There's not much on Ziatype in > there...I've got only about 10 collated pages of notes on ziatype out of 750pp all > told. > > I went to B and S and see that the book on it is no longer available, and > it was called The New Platinum Print. > > I noticed in the archives there was some grumbling about the name > "ziatype" as being inappropriate, using the name of a deity in the Native American > religion to describe a process seemed to be the argument, though "Zia" > means sun is the other side of the argument. This was before I got on the list > so I wasn't aware of this discussion from 99 on. > > Is that argument still valid or merely usual list grumbling? > > Is the process widely practiced or more or less a sort of..."subset"...of > pt/pd? > > Is there no longer a book available on the process, really? > > I notice B and S still sells all the chemistry so it must be being used by > someone. > > Any thoughts are appreciated. > > Chris > > > > > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Tue May 1 07:40:43 2012 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 10:40:43 +0300 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: ziatype In-Reply-To: <55DCD8EA-35A9-40EE-8C66-0FC64CAF4D33@montana.net> References: <8ea87.f628a75.3ccb1e98@aol.com> <55DCD8EA-35A9-40EE-8C66-0FC64CAF4D33@montana.net> Message-ID: Dear Christina, Maybe glycerin can help in that regard: I can have full printout (with pop pd) and a very neural color even at 22C / 30%RH, when I add glycerin (another strong humectant) to the coating solution. Haven't noticed any adverse effect so far... I have AFO from two sources: 1. B&S, 2. Fluka, and both are in semi opaque / white plastic containers. Those containers probably don't let UV inside, because I still don't have any problems with the container from B&S, 6-7 years after purchase, and with the Fluka container too. (The - very similar material - Fluka container is relatively new, only 1 year...) Regards, Loris. 2012/5/1 Christina Anderson : > ... > It seems the fumed silica is another "hygroscopic" ingredient as is the lithium > pd and the cesium pd, all serving to keep moisture in the layer to make a DOP > more POP is what I gather from my reading. > > I have some AFO here that I've had a few years. Funny, it is packaged in a > semi-opaque plastic container...guess it is not that light sensitive... > ... From zphoto at montana.net Tue May 1 14:28:36 2012 From: zphoto at montana.net (Christina Anderson) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 08:28:36 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: ziatype In-Reply-To: References: <8ea87.f628a75.3ccb1e98@aol.com> <55DCD8EA-35A9-40EE-8C66-0FC64CAF4D33@montana.net> Message-ID: <4A86554D-68DC-4CA1-AC55-43DF42EDDBF8@montana.net> Thanks, Loris, How many drops, Loris, per drop count? I have glycerin I could try. Anything to make Montana's lack of humidity work! Good to know about the AFO because mine is old, too and I was wondering if I should worry. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On May 1, 2012, at 1:40 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > Dear Christina, > > Maybe glycerin can help in that regard: I can have full printout (with > pop pd) and a very neural color even at 22C / 30%RH, when I add > glycerin (another strong humectant) to the coating solution. Haven't > noticed any adverse effect so far... > > I have AFO from two sources: 1. B&S, 2. Fluka, and both are in semi > opaque / white plastic containers. Those containers probably don't let > UV inside, because I still don't have any problems with the container > from B&S, 6-7 years after purchase, and with the Fluka container too. > (The - very similar material - Fluka container is relatively new, only > 1 year...) > > Regards, > Loris. > > > 2012/5/1 Christina Anderson : >> ... >> It seems the fumed silica is another "hygroscopic" ingredient as is the lithium >> pd and the cesium pd, all serving to keep moisture in the layer to make a DOP >> more POP is what I gather from my reading. >> >> I have some AFO here that I've had a few years. Funny, it is packaged in a >> semi-opaque plastic container...guess it is not that light sensitive... >> ... > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From JoeSarff at aol.com Tue May 1 16:14:44 2012 From: JoeSarff at aol.com (JoeSarff at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 12:14:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: ziatype Message-ID: <124ae.6ef32ed3.3cd165f3@aol.com> Something else you can try that Kevin Sullivan shared with me is that if the Zia doesn't print out to the extent you want try using regular Pt/Pd developer. It will complete the process. As the Zia is very humidity dependant to complete the chemical reaction as a POP material, this is a reasonable solution (no pun intended). Joe In a message dated 5/1/2012 8:28:52 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, zphoto at montana.net writes: Thanks, Loris, How many drops, Loris, per drop count? I have glycerin I could try. Anything to make Montana's lack of humidity work! Good to know about the AFO because mine is old, too and I was wondering if I should worry. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On May 1, 2012, at 1:40 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > Dear Christina, > > Maybe glycerin can help in that regard: I can have full printout (with > pop pd) and a very neural color even at 22C / 30%RH, when I add > glycerin (another strong humectant) to the coating solution. Haven't > noticed any adverse effect so far... > > I have AFO from two sources: 1. B&S, 2. Fluka, and both are in semi > opaque / white plastic containers. Those containers probably don't let > UV inside, because I still don't have any problems with the container > from B&S, 6-7 years after purchase, and with the Fluka container too. > (The - very similar material - Fluka container is relatively new, only > 1 year...) > > Regards, > Loris. > > > 2012/5/1 Christina Anderson : >> ... >> It seems the fumed silica is another "hygroscopic" ingredient as is the lithium >> pd and the cesium pd, all serving to keep moisture in the layer to make a DOP >> more POP is what I gather from my reading. >> >> I have some AFO here that I've had a few years. Funny, it is packaged in a >> semi-opaque plastic container...guess it is not that light sensitive... >> ... > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From ender100 at aol.com Tue May 1 19:52:58 2012 From: ender100 at aol.com (Mark Nelson) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 14:52:58 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: ziatype In-Reply-To: <4A86554D-68DC-4CA1-AC55-43DF42EDDBF8@montana.net> References: <8ea87.f628a75.3ccb1e98@aol.com> <55DCD8EA-35A9-40EE-8C66-0FC64CAF4D33@montana.net> <4A86554D-68DC-4CA1-AC55-43DF42EDDBF8@montana.net> Message-ID: <8EBEF23A-E4FE-4100-A2AB-1E7F47822B57@aol.com> Loris, A stupid question?. If you add glycerine to the mix to get ziatype to work better in low humidity, what keeps the emulsion from sticking to the negative? Thanks, Mark Best Wishes, Mark Nelson Welcome to the Precision Digital Negatives Home! PDNPrint : Precision Digital Negatives Forum Mark I. Nelson Photography - Welcome On May 1, 2012, at 9:28 AM, Christina Anderson wrote: > Thanks, Loris, > How many drops, Loris, per drop count? I have glycerin I could try. > > Anything to make Montana's lack of humidity work! > > Good to know about the AFO because mine is old, too and I was wondering if I should worry. > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > On May 1, 2012, at 1:40 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > >> Dear Christina, >> >> Maybe glycerin can help in that regard: I can have full printout (with >> pop pd) and a very neural color even at 22C / 30%RH, when I add >> glycerin (another strong humectant) to the coating solution. Haven't >> noticed any adverse effect so far... >> >> I have AFO from two sources: 1. B&S, 2. Fluka, and both are in semi >> opaque / white plastic containers. Those containers probably don't let >> UV inside, because I still don't have any problems with the container >> from B&S, 6-7 years after purchase, and with the Fluka container too. >> (The - very similar material - Fluka container is relatively new, only >> 1 year...) >> >> Regards, >> Loris. >> >> >> 2012/5/1 Christina Anderson : >>> ... >>> It seems the fumed silica is another "hygroscopic" ingredient as is the lithium >>> pd and the cesium pd, all serving to keep moisture in the layer to make a DOP >>> more POP is what I gather from my reading. >>> >>> I have some AFO here that I've had a few years. Funny, it is packaged in a >>> semi-opaque plastic container...guess it is not that light sensitive... >>> ... >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From ejnphoto at sbcglobal.net Tue May 1 23:16:47 2012 From: ejnphoto at sbcglobal.net (EJ Photo) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 18:16:47 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: ziatype In-Reply-To: <8EBEF23A-E4FE-4100-A2AB-1E7F47822B57@aol.com> References: <8ea87.f628a75.3ccb1e98@aol.com><55DCD8EA-35A9-40EE-8C66-0FC64CAF4D33@montana.net><4A86554D-68DC-4CA1-AC55-43DF42EDDBF8@montana.net> <8EBEF23A-E4FE-4100-A2AB-1E7F47822B57@aol.com> Message-ID: <64A85F8C5A8A4A8EAF5674A76EC71FCA@Eric64> In my work with glycerine as an additive to coating solutions, you'd need to add a lot to get it sticky to a point of grabbing a neg. I'd expect a problem more often with too high a pressure in general. Just because a vacuum can draw 30 or 35 psi, does that mean you should always use it? I would add about 3 drops or so for an 11x14. I will need to go back and see if that was tracked. Eric Neilsen Eric Neilsen Photography 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 Dallas, TX 75226 www.ericneilsenphotography.com skype me with ejprinter Let's Talk Photography -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Mark Nelson Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 2:53 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: ziatype Loris, A stupid question.. If you add glycerine to the mix to get ziatype to work better in low humidity, what keeps the emulsion from sticking to the negative? Thanks, Mark Best Wishes, Mark Nelson Welcome to the Precision Digital Negatives Home! PDNPrint : Precision Digital Negatives Forum Mark I. Nelson Photography - Welcome On May 1, 2012, at 9:28 AM, Christina Anderson wrote: > Thanks, Loris, > How many drops, Loris, per drop count? I have glycerin I could try. > > Anything to make Montana's lack of humidity work! > > Good to know about the AFO because mine is old, too and I was wondering if I should worry. > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > On May 1, 2012, at 1:40 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > >> Dear Christina, >> >> Maybe glycerin can help in that regard: I can have full printout (with >> pop pd) and a very neural color even at 22C / 30%RH, when I add >> glycerin (another strong humectant) to the coating solution. Haven't >> noticed any adverse effect so far... >> >> I have AFO from two sources: 1. B&S, 2. Fluka, and both are in semi >> opaque / white plastic containers. Those containers probably don't let >> UV inside, because I still don't have any problems with the container >> from B&S, 6-7 years after purchase, and with the Fluka container too. >> (The - very similar material - Fluka container is relatively new, only >> 1 year...) >> >> Regards, >> Loris. >> >> >> 2012/5/1 Christina Anderson : >>> ... >>> It seems the fumed silica is another "hygroscopic" ingredient as is the lithium >>> pd and the cesium pd, all serving to keep moisture in the layer to make a DOP >>> more POP is what I gather from my reading. >>> >>> I have some AFO here that I've had a few years. Funny, it is packaged in a >>> semi-opaque plastic container...guess it is not that light sensitive... >>> ... >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From richsul at earthlink.net Wed May 2 00:01:43 2012 From: richsul at earthlink.net (Richard Sullivan) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 18:01:43 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: ziatype In-Reply-To: <55DCD8EA-35A9-40EE-8C66-0FC64CAF4D33@montana.net> References: <8ea87.f628a75.3ccb1e98@aol.com> <55DCD8EA-35A9-40EE-8C66-0FC64CAF4D33@montana.net> Message-ID: <012d01cd27f6$c26242b0$4726c810$@net> The opaque white container is UV opaque! Drugs that are light sensitive are also packed in them. In fact that is why they were designed, not for packaging AFO. -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Christina Anderson Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 6:16 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: ziatype Thanks, Joe and Loris and others offlist, I was able to locate the ziatype manual from another listee. Good to know the name isn't a big issue, just one of those "dustups" that the list is known to participate in. I had a chapter on it in my alt cond. book and in working on the revision of that, I was just really wanting to know if I should keep that chapter in and revise it, but after reading up and all over on the process I realize it is still quite intriguing. It may even be intriguing enough to replace pt/pd in my alt course with it, insofar as it is cheaper, and POP. It seems the fumed silica is another "hygroscopic" ingredient as is the lithium pd and the cesium pd, all serving to keep moisture in the layer to make a DOP more POP is what I gather from my reading. I have some AFO here that I've had a few years. Funny, it is packaged in a semi-opaque plastic container...guess it is not that light sensitive... Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On Apr 26, 2012, at 3:56 PM, JoeSarff at aol.com wrote: > Hi Chris: > > Having lived in New Mexico now for over five years, I'm going to take a > poke a at your questions. > > The Zia, or sun symbol, is as ubiquitous to New Mexico and it's people as > oranges are to Florida, movies to California or the Yankees to New Yorkers. > It's everywhere, from the state flag, to my drivers license to nik-nak's > sold at tourist traps. To call the process the Ziatype (referring to solar > printing out) is no big deal, not politically incorrect and an insult or > affront to no one. > > I believe the process was always a subset of the more widely practiced > 'regular' platinum/palladium develop out process. It was, I believe, more for > people who had negs for more conventional silver printing who wanted to see > them in platinum. > > As to the book, books come in and out of print all the time. I believe > Carl Weese actually printed that one, not B&S. I would look to him for > answers. > > Finally, as to the chemicals, 505/474-0890 and ask Leah or Dana. I really > don't know. > > All the best > > Joe Sarff > > > > In a message dated 4/26/2012 9:15:25 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > zphoto at montana.net writes: > > Dear All, > > Over the last five months I have managed to slug through all the archived > emails from the list's inception. There's not much on Ziatype in > there...I've got only about 10 collated pages of notes on ziatype out of 750pp all > told. > > I went to B and S and see that the book on it is no longer available, and > it was called The New Platinum Print. > > I noticed in the archives there was some grumbling about the name > "ziatype" as being inappropriate, using the name of a deity in the Native American > religion to describe a process seemed to be the argument, though "Zia" > means sun is the other side of the argument. This was before I got on the list > so I wasn't aware of this discussion from 99 on. > > Is that argument still valid or merely usual list grumbling? > > Is the process widely practiced or more or less a sort of..."subset"...of > pt/pd? > > Is there no longer a book available on the process, really? > > I notice B and S still sells all the chemistry so it must be being used by > someone. > > Any thoughts are appreciated. > > Chris > > > > > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From ender100 at aol.com Wed May 2 03:30:23 2012 From: ender100 at aol.com (Mark Nelson) Date: Tue, 1 May 2012 22:30:23 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: ziatype In-Reply-To: <64A85F8C5A8A4A8EAF5674A76EC71FCA@Eric64> References: <8ea87.f628a75.3ccb1e98@aol.com> <55DCD8EA-35A9-40EE-8C66-0FC64CAF4D33@montana.net> <4A86554D-68DC-4CA1-AC55-43DF42EDDBF8@montana.net> <8EBEF23A-E4FE-4100-A2AB-1E7F47822B57@aol.com> <64A85F8C5A8A4A8EAF5674A76EC71FCA@Eric64> Message-ID: Thanks Eric, I agree about vacuum. I use 5-10 lbs at the most. Mark Nelson www.PrecisionDigitalNegatives.com PDNPRint Forum @ Yahoo Groups www.MarkINelsonPhoto.com sent from my iPhonetypeDeviceThingy On May 1, 2012, at 6:16 PM, "EJ Photo" wrote: > In my work with glycerine as an additive to coating solutions, you'd need to > add a lot to get it sticky to a point of grabbing a neg. I'd expect a > problem more often with too high a pressure in general. Just because a > vacuum can draw 30 or 35 psi, does that mean you should always use it? > > I would add about 3 drops or so for an 11x14. I will need to go back and see > if that was tracked. > > Eric Neilsen > Eric Neilsen Photography > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 > Dallas, TX 75226 > > www.ericneilsenphotography.com > skype me with ejprinter > Let's Talk Photography > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of > Mark Nelson > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 2:53 PM > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: ziatype > > Loris, > > A stupid question.. > > If you add glycerine to the mix to get ziatype to work better in low > humidity, what keeps the emulsion from sticking to the negative? > > Thanks, > Mark > > > Best Wishes, > Mark Nelson > > Welcome to the Precision Digital Negatives Home! > PDNPrint : Precision Digital Negatives Forum > Mark I. Nelson Photography - Welcome > > On May 1, 2012, at 9:28 AM, Christina Anderson wrote: > >> Thanks, Loris, >> How many drops, Loris, per drop count? I have glycerin I could try. >> >> Anything to make Montana's lack of humidity work! >> >> Good to know about the AFO because mine is old, too and I was wondering if > I should worry. >> Chris >> >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> >> On May 1, 2012, at 1:40 AM, Loris Medici wrote: >> >>> Dear Christina, >>> >>> Maybe glycerin can help in that regard: I can have full printout (with >>> pop pd) and a very neural color even at 22C / 30%RH, when I add >>> glycerin (another strong humectant) to the coating solution. Haven't >>> noticed any adverse effect so far... >>> >>> I have AFO from two sources: 1. B&S, 2. Fluka, and both are in semi >>> opaque / white plastic containers. Those containers probably don't let >>> UV inside, because I still don't have any problems with the container >>> from B&S, 6-7 years after purchase, and with the Fluka container too. >>> (The - very similar material - Fluka container is relatively new, only >>> 1 year...) >>> >>> Regards, >>> Loris. >>> >>> >>> 2012/5/1 Christina Anderson : >>>> ... >>>> It seems the fumed silica is another "hygroscopic" ingredient as is the > lithium >>>> pd and the cesium pd, all serving to keep moisture in the layer to make > a DOP >>>> more POP is what I gather from my reading. >>>> >>>> I have some AFO here that I've had a few years. Funny, it is packaged in > a >>>> semi-opaque plastic container...guess it is not that light sensitive... >>>> ... >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Wed May 2 10:05:47 2012 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 13:05:47 +0300 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: ziatype In-Reply-To: <4A86554D-68DC-4CA1-AC55-43DF42EDDBF8@montana.net> References: <8ea87.f628a75.3ccb1e98@aol.com> <55DCD8EA-35A9-40EE-8C66-0FC64CAF4D33@montana.net> <4A86554D-68DC-4CA1-AC55-43DF42EDDBF8@montana.net> Message-ID: Dear Christina, In extreme situations I use 1-2 drops per ml. probably much less (e.g. 1 drop per 2ml) could work too but I haven't tested it extensively, since I didn't experienced any negative effects by adding that much... Regards, Loris. 2012/5/1 Christina Anderson : > Thanks, Loris, > How many drops, Loris, per drop count? I have glycerin I could try. > > Anything to make Montana's lack of humidity work! From mail at loris.medici.name Wed May 2 10:20:32 2012 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 13:20:32 +0300 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: ziatype In-Reply-To: <8EBEF23A-E4FE-4100-A2AB-1E7F47822B57@aol.com> References: <8ea87.f628a75.3ccb1e98@aol.com> <55DCD8EA-35A9-40EE-8C66-0FC64CAF4D33@montana.net> <4A86554D-68DC-4CA1-AC55-43DF42EDDBF8@montana.net> <8EBEF23A-E4FE-4100-A2AB-1E7F47822B57@aol.com> Message-ID: Hi Mark, I use a 2mil polyester film to protect the negative... OTOH, I never had any occasion of the paper sticking to the protective film. BTW, I don't expose while the paper is relatively damp (I think most Ziatype practitioners do it that way...); I let the paper dry for at least 45 minutes before exposure - and still I can get a full printout and perfectly neutral color in 22C / 30% RH! Regards, Loris. 2012/5/1 Mark Nelson : > Loris, > > A stupid question?. > > If you add glycerine to the mix to get ziatype to work better in low humidity, what keeps the emulsion from sticking to the negative? From mail at loris.medici.name Wed May 2 10:25:05 2012 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 13:25:05 +0300 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: ziatype In-Reply-To: References: <8ea87.f628a75.3ccb1e98@aol.com> <55DCD8EA-35A9-40EE-8C66-0FC64CAF4D33@montana.net> <4A86554D-68DC-4CA1-AC55-43DF42EDDBF8@montana.net> <8EBEF23A-E4FE-4100-A2AB-1E7F47822B57@aol.com> <64A85F8C5A8A4A8EAF5674A76EC71FCA@Eric64> Message-ID: Yep, 10 mmHg is what I always use too... BTW, Christina, Eric adds a little less than 1 drop of glycerin per ml of sensitizer if my math is correct... Regards, Loris. 2012/5/2 Mark Nelson : > Thanks Eric, > > I agree about vacuum. I use 5-10 lbs at the most. > > On May 1, 2012, at 6:16 PM, "EJ Photo" wrote: > >> In my work with glycerine as an additive to coating solutions, you'd need to >> add a lot to get it sticky to a point of grabbing a neg. I'd expect a >> problem more often with too high a pressure in general. Just because a >> vacuum can draw 30 or 35 psi, does that mean you should always use it? >> >> I would add about 3 drops or so for an 11x14. I will need to go back and see >> if that was tracked. From donsbryant at gmail.com Wed May 2 23:06:00 2012 From: donsbryant at gmail.com (Don Bryant) Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 19:06:00 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: ziatype In-Reply-To: References: <8ea87.f628a75.3ccb1e98@aol.com><55DCD8EA-35A9-40EE-8C66-0FC64CAF4D33@montana.net><4A86554D-68DC-4CA1-AC55-43DF42EDDBF8@montana.net><8EBEF23A-E4FE-4100-A2AB-1E7F47822B57@aol.com><64A85F8C5A8A4A8EAF5674A76EC71FCA@Eric64> Message-ID: Should be mm or inches of mercury ... -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Mark Nelson Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 11:30 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: ziatype Thanks Eric, I agree about vacuum. I use 5-10 lbs at the most. Mark Nelson www.PrecisionDigitalNegatives.com PDNPRint Forum @ Yahoo Groups www.MarkINelsonPhoto.com sent from my iPhonetypeDeviceThingy On May 1, 2012, at 6:16 PM, "EJ Photo" wrote: > In my work with glycerine as an additive to coating solutions, you'd need to > add a lot to get it sticky to a point of grabbing a neg. I'd expect a > problem more often with too high a pressure in general. Just because a > vacuum can draw 30 or 35 psi, does that mean you should always use it? > > I would add about 3 drops or so for an 11x14. I will need to go back and see > if that was tracked. > > Eric Neilsen > Eric Neilsen Photography > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 > Dallas, TX 75226 > > www.ericneilsenphotography.com > skype me with ejprinter > Let's Talk Photography > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of > Mark Nelson > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2012 2:53 PM > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: ziatype > > Loris, > > A stupid question.. > > If you add glycerine to the mix to get ziatype to work better in low > humidity, what keeps the emulsion from sticking to the negative? > > Thanks, > Mark > > > Best Wishes, > Mark Nelson > > Welcome to the Precision Digital Negatives Home! > PDNPrint : Precision Digital Negatives Forum > Mark I. Nelson Photography - Welcome > > On May 1, 2012, at 9:28 AM, Christina Anderson wrote: > >> Thanks, Loris, >> How many drops, Loris, per drop count? I have glycerin I could try. >> >> Anything to make Montana's lack of humidity work! >> >> Good to know about the AFO because mine is old, too and I was wondering if > I should worry. >> Chris >> >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> >> On May 1, 2012, at 1:40 AM, Loris Medici wrote: >> >>> Dear Christina, >>> >>> Maybe glycerin can help in that regard: I can have full printout (with >>> pop pd) and a very neural color even at 22C / 30%RH, when I add >>> glycerin (another strong humectant) to the coating solution. Haven't >>> noticed any adverse effect so far... >>> >>> I have AFO from two sources: 1. B&S, 2. Fluka, and both are in semi >>> opaque / white plastic containers. Those containers probably don't let >>> UV inside, because I still don't have any problems with the container >>> from B&S, 6-7 years after purchase, and with the Fluka container too. >>> (The - very similar material - Fluka container is relatively new, only >>> 1 year...) >>> >>> Regards, >>> Loris. >>> >>> >>> 2012/5/1 Christina Anderson : >>>> ... >>>> It seems the fumed silica is another "hygroscopic" ingredient as is the > lithium >>>> pd and the cesium pd, all serving to keep moisture in the layer to make > a DOP >>>> more POP is what I gather from my reading. >>>> >>>> I have some AFO here that I've had a few years. Funny, it is packaged in > a >>>> semi-opaque plastic container...guess it is not that light sensitive... >>>> ... >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From ejnphoto at sbcglobal.net Thu May 3 12:19:28 2012 From: ejnphoto at sbcglobal.net (EJ Photo) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 07:19:28 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: ziatype In-Reply-To: References: <8ea87.f628a75.3ccb1e98@aol.com><55DCD8EA-35A9-40EE-8C66-0FC64CAF4D33@montana.net><4A86554D-68DC-4CA1-AC55-43DF42EDDBF8@montana.net><8EBEF23A-E4FE-4100-A2AB-1E7F47822B57@aol.com><64A85F8C5A8A4A8EAF5674A76EC71FCA@Eric64> Message-ID: <9C454314E45A4A5A8B452FB9EE34F1D5@Eric64> I thought the gauges were in psi and not being in front of mine right now I can't say otherwise. Eric Neilsen Eric Neilsen Photography 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 Dallas, TX 75226 www.ericneilsenphotography.com skype me with ejprinter Let's Talk Photography From donsbryant at gmail.com Fri May 4 00:32:39 2012 From: donsbryant at gmail.com (Don Bryant) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 20:32:39 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: ziatype In-Reply-To: <9C454314E45A4A5A8B452FB9EE34F1D5@Eric64> References: <8ea87.f628a75.3ccb1e98@aol.com><55DCD8EA-35A9-40EE-8C66-0FC64CAF4D33@montana.net><4A86554D-68DC-4CA1-AC55-43DF42EDDBF8@montana.net><8EBEF23A-E4FE-4100-A2AB-1E7F47822B57@aol.com><64A85F8C5A8A4A8EAF5674A76EC71FCA@Eric64> <9C454314E45A4A5A8B452FB9EE34F1D5@Eric64> Message-ID: Looking at the face of my NuArc 26K, the vacuum gauge maxes out at 30 inches - of mercury. Same for my gauges on my vacuum pumps for my vacuum frames, ditto for my refrigeration gauges. If you want to start your vacuum rush you may wish to start reading here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_pressure Then after dinner you can follow up here: http://nd.edu/~nsl/Lectures/urls/LEYBOLD_FUNDAMENTALS.pdf Anyway as a practical matter for printing hydroscopic processes such a Zia or Pop Palladium, about 5 inches of vacuum will suffice to prevent moisture draw down. What really helps is to encapsulate the coated substrate in a sandwich of mylar. 2 mil optical mylar between the film emulsion and the coated paper surface and a heavier barrier underneath, above anything else placed on top of the vacuum bed to prevent imprinting of the vacuum bladder texture. All of this I think, has been oft repeated over the years here on the list and other places on the net. Don -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of EJ Photo Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 8:19 AM To: 'The alternative photographic processes mailing list' Subject: [alt-photo] Re: ziatype I thought the gauges were in psi and not being in front of mine right now I can't say otherwise. Eric Neilsen Eric Neilsen Photography 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 Dallas, TX 75226 www.ericneilsenphotography.com skype me with ejprinter Let's Talk Photography _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From viapiano at pacbell.net Fri May 4 00:34:26 2012 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 17:34:26 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: ziatype In-Reply-To: References: <8ea87.f628a75.3ccb1e98@aol.com> <55DCD8EA-35A9-40EE-8C66-0FC64CAF4D33@montana.net> <4A86554D-68DC-4CA1-AC55-43DF42EDDBF8@montana.net> <8EBEF23A-E4FE-4100-A2AB-1E7F47822B57@aol.com> <64A85F8C5A8A4A8EAF5674A76EC71FCA@Eric64> <9C454314E45A4A5A8B452FB9EE34F1D5@Eric64> Message-ID: Good tips always bear repeating... On May 3, 2012, at 5:32 PM, "Don Bryant" wrote: > Looking at the face of my NuArc 26K, the vacuum gauge maxes out at 30 inches > - of mercury. Same for my gauges on my vacuum pumps for my vacuum frames, > ditto for my refrigeration gauges. > > If you want to start your vacuum rush you may wish to start reading here: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_pressure > > Then after dinner you can follow up here: > > http://nd.edu/~nsl/Lectures/urls/LEYBOLD_FUNDAMENTALS.pdf > > Anyway as a practical matter for printing hydroscopic processes such a Zia > or Pop Palladium, about 5 inches of vacuum will suffice to prevent moisture > draw down. What really helps is to encapsulate the coated substrate in a > sandwich of mylar. 2 mil optical mylar between the film emulsion and the > coated paper surface and a heavier barrier underneath, above anything else > placed on top of the vacuum bed to prevent imprinting of the vacuum bladder > texture. > > All of this I think, has been oft repeated over the years here on the list > and other places on the net. > > Don > > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of > EJ Photo > Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 8:19 AM > To: 'The alternative photographic processes mailing list' > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: ziatype > > I thought the gauges were in psi and not being in front of mine right now I > can't say otherwise. > > Eric Neilsen > Eric Neilsen Photography > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 > Dallas, TX 75226 > > www.ericneilsenphotography.com > skype me with ejprinter > Let's Talk Photography > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From ejnphoto at sbcglobal.net Fri May 4 01:18:41 2012 From: ejnphoto at sbcglobal.net (EJ Photo) Date: Thu, 3 May 2012 20:18:41 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: ziatype In-Reply-To: References: <8ea87.f628a75.3ccb1e98@aol.com><55DCD8EA-35A9-40EE-8C66-0FC64CAF4D33@montana.net><4A86554D-68DC-4CA1-AC55-43DF42EDDBF8@montana.net><8EBEF23A-E4FE-4100-A2AB-1E7F47822B57@aol.com><64A85F8C5A8A4A8EAF5674A76EC71FCA@Eric64><9C454314E45A4A5A8B452FB9EE34F1D5@Eric64> Message-ID: <6E7066E484D449D8ABB87C542FD92155@Eric64> I must admit to not having looked at eth dial in a while; small words any way. just the numbers. Eric Neilsen Eric Neilsen Photography 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 Dallas, TX 75226 www.ericneilsenphotography.com skype me with ejprinter Let's Talk Photography -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Don Bryant Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 7:33 PM To: 'The alternative photographic processes mailing list' Subject: [alt-photo] Re: ziatype Looking at the face of my NuArc 26K, the vacuum gauge maxes out at 30 inches - of mercury. Same for my gauges on my vacuum pumps for my vacuum frames, ditto for my refrigeration gauges. If you want to start your vacuum rush you may wish to start reading here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_pressure Then after dinner you can follow up here: http://nd.edu/~nsl/Lectures/urls/LEYBOLD_FUNDAMENTALS.pdf Anyway as a practical matter for printing hydroscopic processes such a Zia or Pop Palladium, about 5 inches of vacuum will suffice to prevent moisture draw down. What really helps is to encapsulate the coated substrate in a sandwich of mylar. 2 mil optical mylar between the film emulsion and the coated paper surface and a heavier barrier underneath, above anything else placed on top of the vacuum bed to prevent imprinting of the vacuum bladder texture. All of this I think, has been oft repeated over the years here on the list and other places on the net. Don -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of EJ Photo Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2012 8:19 AM To: 'The alternative photographic processes mailing list' Subject: [alt-photo] Re: ziatype I thought the gauges were in psi and not being in front of mine right now I can't say otherwise. Eric Neilsen Eric Neilsen Photography 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 Dallas, TX 75226 www.ericneilsenphotography.com skype me with ejprinter Let's Talk Photography _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From vedos at samk.fi Sat May 5 10:31:59 2012 From: vedos at samk.fi (Vedos Projekti) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 13:31:59 +0300 Subject: [alt-photo] Alt-Photo in NYC In-Reply-To: <6E7066E484D449D8ABB87C542FD92155@Eric64> References: <8ea87.f628a75.3ccb1e98@aol.com><55DCD8EA-35A9-40EE-8C66-0FC64CAF4D33@montana.net><4A86554D-68DC-4CA1-AC55-43DF42EDDBF8@montana.net><8EBEF23A-E4FE-4100-A2AB-1E7F47822B57@aol.com><64A85F8C5A8A4A8EAF5674A76EC71FCA@Eric64><9C454314E45A4A5A8B452FB9EE34F1D5@Eric64> , <6E7066E484D449D8ABB87C542FD92155@Eric64> Message-ID: Hi, I know this is a topic that comes up every now and then... a while back there was a discussion on what to see in NYC... galleries and museums in general. Does anyone happen to know what is up right now in the field of alternative processes? I will be staying in NYC for the next 2 weeks, and especially interested in seeing modern daguerreotypes (and other alt stuff too). -Jalo -- If you only look at what is, you might never attain what could be -- V E D O S Alternative Photographic Processes Satakunta University of Applied Sciences vedos at samk.fi http://vedos.samk.fi http://www.samk.fi From dougcollins99 at gmail.com Sat May 5 13:13:59 2012 From: dougcollins99 at gmail.com (douglas collins) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 09:13:59 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] contemporary daguerrotypes Message-ID: Hi Jalo - The modern dag people have their own communities and networks, but in NYC you might want to start with Jerry Spagnoli. In any case I would start with the artist not the gallery, although having said that you could visit Edwyn Houk Gallery and there are others as well. For artists, one place to go is newdags.com Enjoy your stay! Doug -- douglas collins www.douglascollinspictures.com cell 646-678-0172 From vedos at samk.fi Sat May 5 16:19:43 2012 From: vedos at samk.fi (Vedos Projekti) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 19:19:43 +0300 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: contemporary daguerrotypes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Doug, Jerry is definitely the man I would like to meet... thanks for the other tips too! -Jalo ________________________________________ From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of douglas collins [dougcollins99 at gmail.com] Sent: 05 May 2012 16:13 To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org Subject: [alt-photo] contemporary daguerrotypes Hi Jalo - The modern dag people have their own communities and networks, but in NYC you might want to start with Jerry Spagnoli. In any case I would start with the artist not the gallery, although having said that you could visit Edwyn Houk Gallery and there are others as well. For artists, one place to go is newdags.com Enjoy your stay! Doug -- douglas collins www.douglascollinspictures.com cell 646-678-0172 _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From idag at pce.net Sat May 5 21:43:26 2012 From: idag at pce.net (Rob McElroy) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 17:43:26 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: contemporary daguerreotypes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jalo et al., The most up-to-date source for info. on the happenings in modern daguerreotypy is the following website: http://www.cdags.org/ There, you will find individual on-line galleries from 74 modern daguerreotypists (myself included), although only a small fraction of us make daguerreotypes on a regular basis. Unfortunately, there isn't a section on cdags.org that lists where modern daguerreotypes are currently being exhibited, or which dealers in a particular city have them for sale. It would be a good idea if they had such a section, and I'm going to suggest to the cdags.org list owners that they start one. Most fine art photography dealers aren't keen on daguerreotypes (a subject for another time) so you won't find very many dealers that have them. Alex Novak (http://www.vintageworks.net/) from Chalfont, PA is the exception to the rule and represents several modern daguerreians. My gallery in Buffalo, NY has a permanent exhibit space for daguerreotypes (mine and vintage examples) and is probably the first permanent space dedicated exclusively to the daguerreotype in over 130 years. Daguerreian Regards, Rob McElroy Contemporary daguerreotypist Buffalo, NY On May 5, 2012, at 6:31 AM, Vedos Projekti wrote: > Hi, > I know this is a topic that comes up every now and then... a while back there was a discussion on what to see in NYC... galleries and museums in general. Does anyone happen to know what is up right now in the field of alternative processes? > I will be staying in NYC for the next 2 weeks, and especially interested in seeing modern daguerreotypes (and other alt stuff too). > > -Jalo > From viapiano at pacbell.net Sun May 6 04:27:57 2012 From: viapiano at pacbell.net (Paul Viapiano) Date: Sat, 5 May 2012 21:27:57 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: contemporary daguerreotypes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Rob, What's the address of your gallery? I'm going to be in Buffalo (my hometown) in a month and I'd love to stop by. Best to you, Paul On May 5, 2012, at 2:43 PM, Rob McElroy wrote: > Jalo et al., > > The most up-to-date source for info. on the happenings in modern daguerreotypy is the following website: > http://www.cdags.org/ > > There, you will find individual on-line galleries from 74 modern daguerreotypists (myself included), although only a small fraction of us make daguerreotypes on a regular basis. > > Unfortunately, there isn't a section on cdags.org that lists where modern daguerreotypes are currently being exhibited, or which dealers in a particular city have them for sale. It would be a good idea if they had such a section, and I'm going to suggest to the cdags.org list owners that they start one. > > Most fine art photography dealers aren't keen on daguerreotypes (a subject for another time) so you won't find very many dealers that have them. Alex Novak (http://www.vintageworks.net/) from Chalfont, PA is the exception to the rule and represents several modern daguerreians. > > My gallery in Buffalo, NY has a permanent exhibit space for daguerreotypes (mine and vintage examples) and is probably the first permanent space dedicated exclusively to the daguerreotype in over 130 years. > > Daguerreian Regards, > Rob McElroy > Contemporary daguerreotypist > Buffalo, NY > > > On May 5, 2012, at 6:31 AM, Vedos Projekti wrote: > >> Hi, >> I know this is a topic that comes up every now and then... a while back there was a discussion on what to see in NYC... galleries and museums in general. Does anyone happen to know what is up right now in the field of alternative processes? >> I will be staying in NYC for the next 2 weeks, and especially interested in seeing modern daguerreotypes (and other alt stuff too). >> >> -Jalo >> > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From idag at pce.net Tue May 8 02:08:11 2012 From: idag at pce.net (Rob McElroy) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 22:08:11 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: contemporary daguerreotypes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Paul et al., You (or anyone else that happens to be in or near Buffalo, NY) are more than welcome to stop by for a tour of my daguerreian gallery and studio. Just make sure to call or email before your visit because the gallery is only open by appointment and doesn't have regular public hours. I'm here working most days (and nights) though, so it won't be hard to coordinate a time. Also, if anyone is interested, I am giving a hands-on daguerreotype workshop here in a couple weeks (May 19-21), where participants will learn how to make their own modern daguerreotype from start to finish, completing all the steps themselves (plate preparation, sensitizing, exposing, developing, gilding, archival sealing and framing), beginning with a bare piece of silver-plated copper, and finishing with their very own framed daguerreotype. Email me for the details. Email me also, if you would like to be included on my mailing list for future workshops (your email address will never be shared with anyone else for any reason). My address is: Archive Studio 347 Franklin St. Buffalo, NY 14202 idag at pce.net 716-877-3000 Cheers, Rob McElroy Contemporary daguerreotypist On May 6, 2012, at 12:27 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > Hi Rob, > > What's the address of your gallery? I'm going to be in Buffalo (my hometown) in a month and I'd love to stop by. > > Best to you, > > Paul From tsll at localnet.com Tue May 8 03:16:52 2012 From: tsll at localnet.com (therold (terry) lindquist) Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 22:16:52 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: contemporary daguerreotypes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6B917133-23CE-449B-80A3-C854F69D9E17@localnet.com> Rob: ....your workshop sounds great! I wish that I was still able to do such..... terry On May 7, 2012, at 9:08 PM, Rob McElroy wrote: > Paul et al., > > You (or anyone else that happens to be in or near Buffalo, NY) are more than welcome to stop by for a tour of my daguerreian gallery and studio. Just make sure to call or email before your visit because the gallery is only open by appointment and doesn't have regular public hours. I'm here working most days (and nights) though, so it won't be hard to coordinate a time. > > Also, if anyone is interested, I am giving a hands-on daguerreotype workshop here in a couple weeks (May 19-21), where participants will learn how to make their own modern daguerreotype from start to finish, completing all the steps themselves (plate preparation, sensitizing, exposing, developing, gilding, archival sealing and framing), beginning with a bare piece of silver-plated copper, and finishing with their very own framed daguerreotype. Email me for the details. Email me also, if you would like to be included on my mailing list for future workshops (your email address will never be shared with anyone else for any reason). > > My address is: > > Archive Studio > 347 Franklin St. > Buffalo, NY 14202 > idag at pce.net > 716-877-3000 > > Cheers, > Rob McElroy > Contemporary daguerreotypist > > > > On May 6, 2012, at 12:27 AM, Paul Viapiano wrote: > >> Hi Rob, >> >> What's the address of your gallery? I'm going to be in Buffalo (my hometown) in a month and I'd love to stop by. >> >> Best to you, >> >> Paul > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From vedos at samk.fi Wed May 9 03:04:19 2012 From: vedos at samk.fi (Vedos Projekti) Date: Wed, 9 May 2012 06:04:19 +0300 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: contemporary daguerreotypes In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Rob, thank you very much for this info! -jalo ________________________________________ From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Rob McElroy [idag at pce.net] Sent: 06 May 2012 00:43 To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: contemporary daguerreotypes Jalo et al., The most up-to-date source for info. on the happenings in modern daguerreotypy is the following website: http://www.cdags.org/ There, you will find individual on-line galleries from 74 modern daguerreotypists (myself included), although only a small fraction of us make daguerreotypes on a regular basis. Unfortunately, there isn't a section on cdags.org that lists where modern daguerreotypes are currently being exhibited, or which dealers in a particular city have them for sale. It would be a good idea if they had such a section, and I'm going to suggest to the cdags.org list owners that they start one. Most fine art photography dealers aren't keen on daguerreotypes (a subject for another time) so you won't find very many dealers that have them. Alex Novak (http://www.vintageworks.net/) from Chalfont, PA is the exception to the rule and represents several modern daguerreians. My gallery in Buffalo, NY has a permanent exhibit space for daguerreotypes (mine and vintage examples) and is probably the first permanent space dedicated exclusively to the daguerreotype in over 130 years. Daguerreian Regards, Rob McElroy Contemporary daguerreotypist Buffalo, NY On May 5, 2012, at 6:31 AM, Vedos Projekti wrote: > Hi, > I know this is a topic that comes up every now and then... a while back there was a discussion on what to see in NYC... galleries and museums in general. Does anyone happen to know what is up right now in the field of alternative processes? > I will be staying in NYC for the next 2 weeks, and especially interested in seeing modern daguerreotypes (and other alt stuff too). > > -Jalo > _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From fdfragomeni at gmail.com Tue May 15 16:51:11 2012 From: fdfragomeni at gmail.com (Francesco Fragomeni) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 09:51:11 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Coating Silver Chloride - Non-Gelatin Based? Message-ID: Hi all, This is kind of part two of my previous Silver Chloride inquiry from a little while back. I've been able to get hold of Ron Mowrey's book on gelatin emulsion making which contained a wealth of valuable information on making gelatin based emulsions including a Silver Chloride emulsion similar in some characteristics to Azo. My question now is now concerned with making non-gelatin based emulsions more similar to how one would print Pt/Pl and other alt-processes. Can Silver Chloride and it's contrast agents be mixed purely in solution like Pt/Pl and coated directly to paper without making a gelatin emulsion like Mowrey teaches? I may be interested in hand coating Silver Chloride in this manner at some point if it is possible. Making a gelatin emulsion is deeper then I'd like to go but if I can coat the paper directly like in Pt/Pl but with a Silver Chloride solution/emulsion that may be worth experimenting with. Thanks! -Francesco Fragomeni www.francescofragomeni.com From unglobetrotteur at hotmail.com Tue May 15 17:14:12 2012 From: unglobetrotteur at hotmail.com (Globe Trotteur) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 13:14:12 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Substrate question In-Reply-To: <4F903F81.50003@ieee.org> References: <4F903F81.50003@ieee.org> Message-ID: For my silver printing, I use glossy paper. I do have to increase the ink density to get perfect white. Now if i switch to a film substrate such as pictorico, would that help me getting pure white without increasing the ink density? I assume no because the film is less opaque than the glossy paper but I could be wrong.Thanks for any input.Pierrehttp://www.PierreOlivierTavernier.com From photographeur at nerdshack.com Tue May 15 17:34:46 2012 From: photographeur at nerdshack.com (etienne garbaux) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 13:34:46 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Coating Silver Chloride - Non-Gelatin Based? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120515173451.1B09911BAED@karen.lavabit.com> Francesco wrote: >Can Silver Chloride and it's contrast agents >be mixed purely in solution like Pt/Pl and coated directly to paper without >making a gelatin emulsion like Mowrey teaches? What you are describing is the "salt printing" process. However, because silver chloride is essentially insoluble in water (and would just precipitate out if you tried to mix a solution of it), one does not mix the sensitizer and then coat it. (This is what accounts for the fiddly part of gelatin emulsion chemistry -- getting the size(s) of silver chloride grains that you want, suspended in the gelatin solution.) Instead, for the salt process (very simplified), you coat the paper with a salt solution ("salt" here being used in its generic sense, not necessarily sodium chloride), let it dry, then float it on a silver nitrate sensitizing bath, dry, and expose. Note that you need to tone the image unless you are content with unattractive low-contrast reddish-yellow prints (gold and/or Pt are the most common toning agents -- I use gold followed by Pt to get a neutral black). James M. Reilly wrote the definitive text: The Albumen and Salted Paper Book (1980, ISBN 0-87992-020-3). It is available on the web. Best regards, etienne From fdfragomeni at gmail.com Tue May 15 18:32:26 2012 From: fdfragomeni at gmail.com (Francesco Fragomeni) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 14:32:26 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Coating Silver Chloride - Non-Gelatin Based? In-Reply-To: <20120515173451.1B09911BAED@karen.lavabit.com> References: <20120515173451.1B09911BAED@karen.lavabit.com> Message-ID: <578C5411-9628-42DB-8B46-8639AC7DCA60@gmail.com> Etienne, As usual, thank you!! :) -Francesco Sent from my iPhone On May 15, 2012, at 1:34 PM, etienne garbaux wrote: > Francesco wrote: > >> Can Silver Chloride and it's contrast agents >> be mixed purely in solution like Pt/Pl and coated directly to paper without >> making a gelatin emulsion like Mowrey teaches? > > What you are describing is the "salt printing" process. However, because silver chloride is essentially insoluble in water (and would just precipitate out if you tried to mix a solution of it), one does not mix the sensitizer and then coat it. (This is what accounts for the fiddly part of gelatin emulsion chemistry -- getting the size(s) of silver chloride grains that you want, suspended in the gelatin solution.) > > Instead, for the salt process (very simplified), you coat the paper with a salt solution ("salt" here being used in its generic sense, not necessarily sodium chloride), let it dry, then float it on a silver nitrate sensitizing bath, dry, and expose. Note that you need to tone the image unless you are content with unattractive low-contrast reddish-yellow prints (gold and/or Pt are the most common toning agents -- I use gold followed by Pt to get a neutral black). > > James M. Reilly wrote the definitive text: The Albumen and Salted Paper Book (1980, ISBN 0-87992-020-3). It is available on the web. > > Best regards, > > etienne > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Tue May 15 19:45:43 2012 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Tue, 15 May 2012 22:45:43 +0300 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Substrate question In-Reply-To: References: <4F903F81.50003@ieee.org> Message-ID: You have to test it Pierre... (My gut feeling is that you'll probably need to increase ink density further compared to glossy inkjet paper.) The base density doesn't count for the whites, all is dependent to how the substrate + ink work together, hence the need for an real / actual test... Regards, Loris. 2012/5/15 Globe Trotteur : > > For my silver printing, I use glossy paper. I do have to increase the ink density to get perfect white. Now if i switch to a film substrate such as pictorico, would that help me getting pure white without increasing the ink density? I assume no because the film is less opaque than the glossy paper but I could be wrong.Thanks for any input.Pierre From ender100 at aol.com Wed May 16 19:55:07 2012 From: ender100 at aol.com (Mark Nelson) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 14:55:07 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Workshop Opening Photopolymer Gravure with Mark Nelson & Paul Taylor (Renaissance Press, New Hampshire) In-Reply-To: References: <7A2A0626-201A-4DCE-B148-A3DC1DFA01EB@montana.net> Message-ID: <4B7A5462-DCA1-4904-A98C-919DB3BCDC6E@aol.com> Hi Folks, Due to a cancellation I have an opening in a workshop, Precision Digital Positives & Photopolymer Gravure, with Mark Nelson and Paul Taylor in Ashuelot, New Hampshire. The workshop dates are this June 1, 2, 3 & 4. This is a great workshop and Paul's studio is a really great place to learn! The setting is beautiful, so if you come, bring your camera! Best Wishes, Mark Nelson Welcome to the Precision Digital Negatives Home! PDNPrint : Precision Digital Negatives Forum Mark I. Nelson Photography - Welcome From ender100 at aol.com Wed May 16 20:17:43 2012 From: ender100 at aol.com (Mark Nelson) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 15:17:43 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Workshop Opening Photopolymer Gravure with Mark Nelson & Paul Taylor (Renaissance Press, New Hampshire) In-Reply-To: <4B7A5462-DCA1-4904-A98C-919DB3BCDC6E@aol.com> References: <7A2A0626-201A-4DCE-B148-A3DC1DFA01EB@montana.net> <4B7A5462-DCA1-4904-A98C-919DB3BCDC6E@aol.com> Message-ID: <733C11B0-34DD-4533-9B35-DB4FDB5477AD@aol.com> I forgot to mention, please contact me off list at ender100 at aol.com if you would like to attend this workshop! Thanks Best Wishes, Mark Nelson Welcome to the Precision Digital Negatives Home! PDNPrint : Precision Digital Negatives Forum Mark I. Nelson Photography - Welcome On May 16, 2012, at 2:55 PM, Mark Nelson wrote: > Hi Folks, > > Due to a cancellation I have an opening in a workshop, Precision Digital Positives & Photopolymer Gravure, with Mark Nelson and Paul Taylor in Ashuelot, New Hampshire. > > The workshop dates are this June 1, 2, 3 & 4. > > This is a great workshop and Paul's studio is a really great place to learn! > > The setting is beautiful, so if you come, bring your camera! > > > Best Wishes, > Mark Nelson > > Welcome to the Precision Digital Negatives Home! > PDNPrint : Precision Digital Negatives Forum > Mark I. Nelson Photography - Welcome > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From bobkiss at caribsurf.com Wed May 16 21:52:10 2012 From: bobkiss at caribsurf.com (BOB KISS) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 17:52:10 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] TANGENTIALLY ON TOPIC: HELP W/ CS-5 & SCANNER? Message-ID: DEAR LIST, As I use my Epson V750 pro mostly to scan negs to make enlarged digital negs for alt processes I think the following question can be considered on topic. This is for those who have used CS-5 and the V750. I just bought a young but used laptop that has CS-5 and Lightroom on it for about a quarter of what I would pay for CS-5 alone. Good deal. I just loaded on my scanner and printer drivers and programs and went on line to update them to the latest versions. With my old computer and CS-2, when I want to scan, I hit "file" them "import" and there are Epson VL750 and Epson Digital Ice as two of the options waiting for me along with WAI and my webcam. This allows me to scan right into Frotoshop and save the files as PSDs, my preferred file. I seem to recall that it was a matter of setting some preferences in Frotoshop to connect with the scanner (or was it the scanner program to work with Frotoshop?) but, either way, it works. Can anyone tell me how to set this up with CS-5 and Epson Scan? I have hunted for "preferences" or "advanced settings" buttons and I know I will be embarrassed at how simple this will be when you tell me but, after 3 hours, I am stumped! No, I don't want to use Epson scan alone to generate a Tiff and then open it in Frotoshop and convert to PSD.I REALLY want to open CS-5, hit "file" then "import" and find the Epson scanner there exactly as I do on my old computer with CS-2. I am praying that some recent feud between Epson and Adobe has not rendered this impossible. Any hope? CHEERS! BOB Please check my website: http://www.bobkiss.com/ "Live as if you are going to die tomorrow. Learn as if you are going to live forever". Mahatma Gandhi From ritalbernstein at gmail.com Wed May 16 22:50:09 2012 From: ritalbernstein at gmail.com (Rita Bernstein) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 18:50:09 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: TANGENTIALLY ON TOPIC: HELP W/ CS-5 & SCANNER? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Bob, I had a similar problem this week with an Epson V700, PS CS5, and Windows 7 (64 bit). Epson basically told me I was screwed, but Adobe came to the rescue (so much better customer service than Epson) and there was a driver I could download from their site. No problem now accessing the scanner from the import menu. Best, Rita Bernstein On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 5:52 PM, BOB KISS wrote: > DEAR LIST, > > As I use my Epson V750 pro mostly to scan negs to make enlarged > digital negs for alt processes I think the following question can be > considered on topic. > > This is for those who have used CS-5 and the V750. I just bought a young > but used laptop that has CS-5 and Lightroom on it for about a quarter of > what I would pay for CS-5 alone. Good deal. I just loaded on my scanner > and printer drivers and programs and went on line to update them to the > latest versions. With my old computer and CS-2, when I want to scan, I hit > "file" them "import" and there are Epson VL750 and Epson Digital Ice as two > of the options waiting for me along with WAI and my webcam. This allows me > to scan right into Frotoshop and save the files as PSDs, my preferred file. > I seem to recall that it was a matter of setting some preferences in > Frotoshop to connect with the scanner (or was it the scanner program to > work > with Frotoshop?) but, either way, it works. Can anyone tell me how to set > this up with CS-5 and Epson Scan? I have hunted for "preferences" or > "advanced settings" buttons and I know I will be embarrassed at how simple > this will be when you tell me but, after 3 hours, I am stumped! > > No, I don't want to use Epson scan alone to generate a Tiff and > then open it in Frotoshop and convert to PSD.I REALLY want to open CS-5, > hit > "file" then "import" and find the Epson scanner there exactly as I do on my > old computer with CS-2. I am praying that some recent feud between Epson > and Adobe has not rendered this impossible. Any hope? > > CHEERS! > > BOB > > > > > > Please check my website: > http://www.bobkiss.com/ > > > > > "Live as if you are going to die tomorrow. Learn as if you are going to > live forever". Mahatma Gandhi > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > -- Rita Bernstein www.RitaBernstein.com From bobkiss at caribsurf.com Wed May 16 22:52:51 2012 From: bobkiss at caribsurf.com (KISS BOB) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 18:52:51 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: TANGENTIALLY ON TOPIC: HELP W/ CS-5 & SCANNER? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: DEAR RITA, Thanks for reminding me that the computer in question is running XP Professional. This might help anyone who has any suggestions. Can you tell me where you found the download at Adobe? CHEERS! BOB On Wed, 16 May 2012 18:50:09 -0400 Rita Bernstein wrote: > Hi Bob, > > I had a similar problem this week with an Epson V700, PS >CS5, and > Windows 7 (64 bit). Epson basically told me I was >screwed, but > Adobe came to the rescue (so much better customer >service than > Epson) and there was a driver I could download from >their site. > No problem now accessing the scanner from the import >menu. > > Best, > Rita Bernstein > > > On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 5:52 PM, BOB KISS > wrote: > >> DEAR LIST, >> >> As I use my Epson V750 pro mostly to scan >>negs to make enlarged >> digital negs for alt processes I think the following >>question can be >> considered on topic. >> >> This is for those who have used CS-5 and the V750. I >>just bought a young >> but used laptop that has CS-5 and Lightroom on it for >>about a quarter of >> what I would pay for CS-5 alone. Good deal. I just >>loaded on my scanner >> and printer drivers and programs and went on line to >>update them to the >> latest versions. With my old computer and CS-2, when I >>want to scan, I hit >> "file" them "import" and there are Epson VL750 and Epson >>Digital Ice as two >> of the options waiting for me along with WAI and my >>webcam. This allows me >> to scan right into Frotoshop and save the files as PSDs, >>my preferred file. >> I seem to recall that it was a matter of setting some >>preferences in >> Frotoshop to connect with the scanner (or was it the >>scanner program to >> work >> with Frotoshop?) but, either way, it works. Can anyone >>tell me how to set >> this up with CS-5 and Epson Scan? I have hunted for >>"preferences" or >> "advanced settings" buttons and I know I will be >>embarrassed at how simple >> this will be when you tell me but, after 3 hours, I am >>stumped! >> >> No, I don't want to use Epson scan alone to >>generate a Tiff and >> then open it in Frotoshop and convert to PSD.I REALLY >>want to open CS-5, >> hit >> "file" then "import" and find the Epson scanner there >>exactly as I do on my >> old computer with CS-2. I am praying that some recent >>feud between Epson >> and Adobe has not rendered this impossible. Any hope? >> >> CHEERS! >> >> BOB >> >> >> >> >> >> Please check my website: >> http://www.bobkiss.com/ >> >> >> >> >> "Live as if you are going to die tomorrow. Learn as if >>you are going to >> live forever". Mahatma Gandhi >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | >>http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > > > > -- > Rita Bernstein > www.RitaBernstein.com > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | >http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From rs at silvergrain.org Thu May 17 00:20:21 2012 From: rs at silvergrain.org (Ryuji Suzuki) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 20:20:21 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: TANGENTIALLY ON TOPIC: HELP W/ CS-5 & SCANNER? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FB44445.8040802@silvergrain.org> I might be trying to sell you a wrong rum (solution) but if you just don't like Epson Scan, or hate having to go through TIFF files (both are true in my case), you might like my practice. I scan material in VueScan and save in Adobe DNG raw file. If the image is negative, there is one switch that flips the image to a positive, but other than that, I can totally ignore color, curve, white point, etc., as these parameters are irrelevant to DNG file being produced (you need to set resolution, etc. properly, of course). These are just like camera raw files except that the data come from linear image sensor in the scanner. So, you can use Lightroom or Camera RAW to render the file later and enjoy nondestructive editing workflow until you hit Photoshop. This way, I can scan a batch of negs fast and never have to rescan the same thing because the black point was wrong, etc. -- Ryuji Suzuki "Don't play what's there, play what's not there." (Miles Davis) BOB KISS wrote: > No, I don't want to use Epson scan alone to generate a Tiff and > then open it in Frotoshop and convert to PSD.I REALLY want to open CS-5, hit > "file" then "import" and find the Epson scanner there exactly as I do on my > old computer with CS-2. I am praying that some recent feud between Epson > and Adobe has not rendered this impossible. Any hope? From pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca Thu May 17 00:45:54 2012 From: pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca (Peter Friedrichsen) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 20:45:54 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Removal of residual dichromate "burn" and chemistry behind it In-Reply-To: <4B7A5462-DCA1-4904-A98C-919DB3BCDC6E@aol.com> References: <7A2A0626-201A-4DCE-B148-A3DC1DFA01EB@montana.net> <4B7A5462-DCA1-4904-A98C-919DB3BCDC6E@aol.com> Message-ID: Just wondering if it is necessary to treat a carbon print with a sulfite bath to reduce residual dichromate. I know that some of you use sulfite baths on gum bichromates. What is the standard practice for carbon if there is one? Does a sulfite bath remove the light affected reduction products?, or is it converting it to a less visible lower valence form, reducing the intensity of the "stain" on exposed areas. Is a print made more archival by this step? Anyone know a bit more about what exactly is going on with sulfite reduction? Peter Friedrichsen From donsbryant at gmail.com Thu May 17 01:07:47 2012 From: donsbryant at gmail.com (Don) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 21:07:47 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: TANGENTIALLY ON TOPIC: HELP W/ CS-5 & SCANNER? In-Reply-To: <4FB44445.8040802@silvergrain.org> References: <4FB44445.8040802@silvergrain.org> Message-ID: <4FB44F63.8010005@gmail.com> > These are just like camera raw files except that the data come from linear image sensor in the scanner. So, you can use Lightroom or Camera RAW to render the file later and enjoy nondestructive editing workflow until you hit Photoshop. > Ryuji, technically Vuescan DNG files really aren't like camera RAW files. The file produced by Vuescan is essentially rendered data stuffed into a TIFF format with a DNG wrapper. The Adobe DNG format is quite flexible but don't be confused by the data you think you might have. Bob Kiss, your version of LR must be 3.X since the notebook is running XP. Be sure to update LR 3.x and the latest version of ACR for CS5 since the RAW processing engine was improved and debugged quite extensively. LR 4.x and CS6 ACR won't operate on a Windoz OS less than 64bit Win 7. So your notebook purchase is probably a dead end for upgrading to LR4.X and CS6. The MS Windows upgrade wizard can determine if the notebook can reliably run Win7 64. LR4.X and the CS6 ACR engine is way more superior (poor grammar?) than LR 3.X, so much so, I recommend you sell your notebook and upgrade to a machine that will support LR 4.x and CS6. Be sure you have the license info for LR 3.x and CS5 and you can upgrade those products. Don Bryant From ritalbernstein at gmail.com Thu May 17 01:45:44 2012 From: ritalbernstein at gmail.com (Rita Bernstein) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 21:45:44 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: TANGENTIALLY ON TOPIC: HELP W/ CS-5 & SCANNER? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bob, My tech guy was trouble shooting my problem and did the online chat thing with Adobe, who directed him to the download. I have had excellent experience with the tech support folks at Adobe so maybe give them a try. I really miss my Windows XP and rue the day I decided to "upgrade." Windows 7 (64 bit ) has been a complete nightmare...mostly incompatible with all my devices. I'm sure the Mac people are laughing, rightfully so. Best, Rita On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 6:52 PM, KISS BOB wrote: > DEAR RITA, > Thanks for reminding me that the computer in question is running XP > Professional. This might help anyone who has any suggestions. > Can you tell me where you found the download at Adobe? > CHEERS! > BOB > > > > On Wed, 16 May 2012 18:50:09 -0400 > Rita Bernstein wrote: > >> Hi Bob, >> >> I had a similar problem this week with an Epson V700, PS CS5, and >> Windows 7 (64 bit). Epson basically told me I was screwed, but >> Adobe came to the rescue (so much better customer service than >> Epson) and there was a driver I could download from their site. >> No problem now accessing the scanner from the import menu. >> >> Best, >> Rita Bernstein >> >> >> On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 5:52 PM, BOB KISS wrote: >> >> DEAR LIST, >>> >>> As I use my Epson V750 pro mostly to scan negs to make enlarged >>> digital negs for alt processes I think the following question can be >>> considered on topic. >>> >>> This is for those who have used CS-5 and the V750. I just bought a young >>> but used laptop that has CS-5 and Lightroom on it for about a quarter of >>> what I would pay for CS-5 alone. Good deal. I just loaded on my scanner >>> and printer drivers and programs and went on line to update them to the >>> latest versions. With my old computer and CS-2, when I want to scan, I >>> hit >>> "file" them "import" and there are Epson VL750 and Epson Digital Ice as >>> two >>> of the options waiting for me along with WAI and my webcam. This allows >>> me >>> to scan right into Frotoshop and save the files as PSDs, my preferred >>> file. >>> I seem to recall that it was a matter of setting some preferences in >>> Frotoshop to connect with the scanner (or was it the scanner program to >>> work >>> with Frotoshop?) but, either way, it works. Can anyone tell me how to >>> set >>> this up with CS-5 and Epson Scan? I have hunted for "preferences" or >>> "advanced settings" buttons and I know I will be embarrassed at how >>> simple >>> this will be when you tell me but, after 3 hours, I am stumped! >>> >>> No, I don't want to use Epson scan alone to generate a Tiff and >>> then open it in Frotoshop and convert to PSD.I REALLY want to open CS-5, >>> hit >>> "file" then "import" and find the Epson scanner there exactly as I do on >>> my >>> old computer with CS-2. I am praying that some recent feud between Epson >>> and Adobe has not rendered this impossible. Any hope? >>> >>> CHEERS! >>> >>> BOB >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Please check my website: >>> http://www.bobkiss.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> "Live as if you are going to die tomorrow. Learn as if you are going to >>> live forever". Mahatma Gandhi >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/**listinfo >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Rita Bernstein >> www.RitaBernstein.com >> ______________________________**_________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/**listinfo >> > > ______________________________**_________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/**listinfo > -- Rita Bernstein www.RitaBernstein.com From donsbryant at gmail.com Thu May 17 02:51:13 2012 From: donsbryant at gmail.com (Don) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 22:51:13 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: TANGENTIALLY ON TOPIC: HELP W/ CS-5 & SCANNER? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FB467A1.6020404@gmail.com> Why don't you use Windows 7 Virtual XP add on. Are you using Windows 7 Pro? I've found Win 7 Pro to be perhaps the best version of Windows ever. On 5/16/2012 9:45 PM, Rita Bernstein wrote: > Bob, > My tech guy was trouble shooting my problem and did the online chat thing > with Adobe, who directed him to the download. I have had excellent > experience > with the tech support folks at Adobe so maybe give them a try. I really > miss my > Windows XP and rue the day I decided to "upgrade." Windows 7 (64 bit ) has > been > a complete nightmare...mostly incompatible with all my devices. I'm sure > the > Mac people are laughing, rightfully so. > Best, > Rita > > > On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 6:52 PM, KISS BOB wrote: > >> DEAR RITA, >> Thanks for reminding me that the computer in question is running XP >> Professional. This might help anyone who has any suggestions. >> Can you tell me where you found the download at Adobe? >> CHEERS! >> BOB >> >> >> >> On Wed, 16 May 2012 18:50:09 -0400 >> Rita Bernstein wrote: >> >>> Hi Bob, >>> >>> I had a similar problem this week with an Epson V700, PS CS5, and >>> Windows 7 (64 bit). Epson basically told me I was screwed, but >>> Adobe came to the rescue (so much better customer service than >>> Epson) and there was a driver I could download from their site. >>> No problem now accessing the scanner from the import menu. >>> >>> Best, >>> Rita Bernstein >>> >>> >>> On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 5:52 PM, BOB KISS wrote: >>> >>> DEAR LIST, >>>> As I use my Epson V750 pro mostly to scan negs to make enlarged >>>> digital negs for alt processes I think the following question can be >>>> considered on topic. >>>> >>>> This is for those who have used CS-5 and the V750. I just bought a young >>>> but used laptop that has CS-5 and Lightroom on it for about a quarter of >>>> what I would pay for CS-5 alone. Good deal. I just loaded on my scanner >>>> and printer drivers and programs and went on line to update them to the >>>> latest versions. With my old computer and CS-2, when I want to scan, I >>>> hit >>>> "file" them "import" and there are Epson VL750 and Epson Digital Ice as >>>> two >>>> of the options waiting for me along with WAI and my webcam. This allows >>>> me >>>> to scan right into Frotoshop and save the files as PSDs, my preferred >>>> file. >>>> I seem to recall that it was a matter of setting some preferences in >>>> Frotoshop to connect with the scanner (or was it the scanner program to >>>> work >>>> with Frotoshop?) but, either way, it works. Can anyone tell me how to >>>> set >>>> this up with CS-5 and Epson Scan? I have hunted for "preferences" or >>>> "advanced settings" buttons and I know I will be embarrassed at how >>>> simple >>>> this will be when you tell me but, after 3 hours, I am stumped! >>>> >>>> No, I don't want to use Epson scan alone to generate a Tiff and >>>> then open it in Frotoshop and convert to PSD.I REALLY want to open CS-5, >>>> hit >>>> "file" then "import" and find the Epson scanner there exactly as I do on >>>> my >>>> old computer with CS-2. I am praying that some recent feud between Epson >>>> and Adobe has not rendered this impossible. Any hope? >>>> >>>> CHEERS! >>>> >>>> BOB >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Please check my website: >>>> http://www.bobkiss.com/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> "Live as if you are going to die tomorrow. Learn as if you are going to >>>> live forever". Mahatma Gandhi >>>> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/**listinfo >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Rita Bernstein >>> www.RitaBernstein.com >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/**listinfo >>> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/**listinfo >> > > From donsbryant at gmail.com Thu May 17 03:04:59 2012 From: donsbryant at gmail.com (Don) Date: Wed, 16 May 2012 23:04:59 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: TANGENTIALLY ON TOPIC: HELP W/ CS-5 & SCANNER? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FB46ADB.4@gmail.com> > I really miss my Windows XP and rue the day I decided to "upgrade." Windows 7 (64 bit ) has been a complete nightmare...mostly incompatible with all my devices. I'm sure the Mac people are laughing, rightfully so. > FWIW, Microsoft will end XP support in 2013. The Mac universe has been fubared for a while now. They don't have much to laugh about these days, especially since Apple is no longer a computer company. From alt.photosbyjeremy at gmail.com Thu May 17 16:44:59 2012 From: alt.photosbyjeremy at gmail.com (Jeremy Moore) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 11:44:59 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: TANGENTIALLY ON TOPIC: HELP W/ CS-5 & SCANNER? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bob, Photoshop CS5 does not come with the TWAIN plug-in needed to scan directly into Photoshop. You can find the Adobe help page to download and install this plug-in here: http://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/kb/twain-plug-photoshop-cs4-cs5.html#main_Photoshop_CS5_and_TWAIN - Jeremy ps: Supposedly, TWAIN stands for "Technology Without an Interesting Name" :-) On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 4:52 PM, BOB KISS wrote: > DEAR LIST, > > As I use my Epson V750 pro mostly to scan negs to make enlarged > digital negs for alt processes I think the following question can be > considered on topic. > > This is for those who have used CS-5 and the V750. I just bought a young > but used laptop that has CS-5 and Lightroom on it for about a quarter of > what I would pay for CS-5 alone. Good deal. I just loaded on my scanner > and printer drivers and programs and went on line to update them to the > latest versions. With my old computer and CS-2, when I want to scan, I hit > "file" them "import" and there are Epson VL750 and Epson Digital Ice as two > of the options waiting for me along with WAI and my webcam. This allows me > to scan right into Frotoshop and save the files as PSDs, my preferred file. > I seem to recall that it was a matter of setting some preferences in > Frotoshop to connect with the scanner (or was it the scanner program to > work > with Frotoshop?) but, either way, it works. Can anyone tell me how to set > this up with CS-5 and Epson Scan? I have hunted for "preferences" or > "advanced settings" buttons and I know I will be embarrassed at how simple > this will be when you tell me but, after 3 hours, I am stumped! > > No, I don't want to use Epson scan alone to generate a Tiff and > then open it in Frotoshop and convert to PSD.I REALLY want to open CS-5, > hit > "file" then "import" and find the Epson scanner there exactly as I do on my > old computer with CS-2. I am praying that some recent feud between Epson > and Adobe has not rendered this impossible. Any hope? > > CHEERS! > > BOB > > > > > > Please check my website: > http://www.bobkiss.com/ > > > > > "Live as if you are going to die tomorrow. Learn as if you are going to > live forever". Mahatma Gandhi > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From fdfragomeni at gmail.com Fri May 18 00:45:13 2012 From: fdfragomeni at gmail.com (Francesco Fragomeni) Date: Thu, 17 May 2012 17:45:13 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Ultra Long Exposure Reciprocity Failure? In-Reply-To: References: <4F18F350.9080402@shaw.ca> <4DD94B0C-58D5-4C79-BEC9-578ECE6BDE29@bellsouth.net> <458ED7835F464E8484D103A75C057152@dell4600> Message-ID: Hi all, Just wanted to update briefly. I was at MoMA a couple of days ago and saw two of Wesley's prints. The were very large and most certainly printed digitally. I'm fairly confident that enlargement of that scale from any negatives he made in camera would not render the way they do unless scanned. My guess is that scanning and a good deal of correction/ separation/ layering is employed before they are printed to wall size prints. Seeing the prints clarified a lot of my theories regarding his process. Best, Francesco Fragomeni www.francescofragomeni.com On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > Hi Gord, > > I'll check that out. > > Hmm, maybe I'll just build a pinhole camera with some film in it and go > shove it somewhere for a year and see what happens. My feeling is that with > such long exposures reciprocity isn't as much of an issue as it is with > more moderate long exposures. > > I'll also play with some of the equations some of you provided and see if > I can extrapolate very long times from them. > > Thanks to everyone for the help!! > > -Francesco > > On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 12:57 PM, Gordon Holtslander wrote: > >> Hi: >> >> Yes this is a like a lith film. >> >> Gord >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Paul Viapiano >> Date: Friday, January 20, 2012 12:13 pm >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Ultra Long Exposure Reciprocity Failure? >> To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list < >> alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> >> >> > Gordon, >> > >> > Is that similar to lith film...? >> > >> > Paul >> > >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Holtslander" >> > To: "The alternative photographic processes >> > mailing list" >> > Sent: Friday, January 20, 2012 9:58 AM >> > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Ultra Long Exposure Reciprocity Failure? >> > >> > >> > Try one of these films: >> > http://www.ultrafineonline.com/lhsulifi.html >> > >> > I use them for my pinhole cameras. with something like >> > Soemarko's LC1 >> > http://shelbyvilledesign.com/LC1.htm >> > >> > It doesn't appear to have significant reciprocity failure >> > >> > Printing paper when used in a film situation has an ASA of 6, - >> > the ultrafine in LC1 has an effective ASA of 1, with long exposures. >> > >> > Gord >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: Francesco Fragomeni >> > Date: Friday, January 20, 2012 10:11 am >> > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Ultra Long Exposure Reciprocity Failure? >> > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > > photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> >> > >> > >Hi Diana, >> > > >> > >We're on the same page. I know that week and month long >> > >exposures can and >> > >have been done but to my knowledge this is mostly done in >> > >pinhole cameras >> > >with paper rather then film. I'm particularly interested in how film >> > >reciprocity behaves at such long exposures. The Osterman's did >> > >indeed have >> > >their show and the work was related to what I'm doing. In >> > >reality they were >> > >doing something more closely related to whats typically done with >> > >solargraphy i.e. long exposures which print out the paper which >> > >is then >> > >immediately scanned (only one chance to so this because the >> > >scanning light >> > >further exposes the image) and then the rest of the process is >> > >completeddigitally. I'm clear on how that particular process >> > >works. I'm curious >> > >about making super long exposures on film and dealing with the >> > >reciprocitythats involved. >> > > >> > >-Francesco >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 8:47 AM, Diana Bloomfield < >> > >dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net> wrote: >> > > >> > >> Hey Francesco, >> > >> >> > >> Maybe I'm still not clear on what you're asking, but I know >> > >they're have >> > >> been a lot of pinhole photographers who have set cameras out >> > >for weeks and >> > >> months at a time. Greg Kemp, for one, has done that-- months long >> > >> exposures-- don't know if he used film or paper, though. >> > >I'm sure there >> > >> are plenty of others out there (mostly pinhole photographers >> > >that I know >> > >> of) who could give you their experience. Somebody here >> > >might have Greg's >> > >> current email address, too. The last time I wrote to >> > >him, the old email I >> > >> had bounced back. (And didn't the Ostermans just have >> > >their show at Tilt, >> > >> from Lacock Abbey, where they had their cameras out for a long >> > >period of >> > >> time (weeks?), or am I mistaken?? >> > >> >> > >> Diana >> > >> >> > >> On Jan 20, 2012, at 9:49 AM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: >> > >> >> > >> Hi everyone, >> > >>> >> > >>> Thanks for the information and insight. I wanted to offer a quick >> > >>> clarification so that everyone is on the same page as I am >> > >when I say >> > >>> "ultra long exposures". I'm talking about exposures well >> > >beyond hours. I'm >> > >>> referring to exposures in the duration of weeks, month, and >> > >even years. >> > >>> The >> > >>> extreme nature of such exposures is what led me to believe >> > >that there may >> > >>> be a possibility that reciprocity failure behaves differently >> > >or becomes >> > >>> irrelevant entirely with such long exposures. I've done >> > >pinhole exposures >> > >>> and lensed long exposures into the hours before without much >> > >problem>> (mainly based on the times that others have provided >> > >or basic guesswork >> > >>> based on manufacturer datasheet info) but I'm talking about >> > >going into a >> > >>> whole different realm of long exposure. >> > >>> >> > >>> Michael Wesely's work work documenting urban development such >> > >as the >> > >>> re-building of the MOMA building in NY were indeed ultra long >> > >exposures>> and >> > >>> not time lapse. The MOMA images were 34 month exposures >> > >through 4 pinhole >> > >>> cameras. MOMA invited him to do this project and authorized >> > >designated>> areas for his cameras so that they could be insured >> > >the cameras would not >> > >>> be disturbed during the ultra long exposures. In some of the >> > >images where >> > >>> the sky is visible you can see the progression of the sun. >> > >These images >> > >>> would in fact be considered Solargraphs on film I suppose. >> > >The progression >> > >>> of the sun's path is continuous and you can see the changes >> > >in season as >> > >>> well as when weather was clear vs overcast. It is textbook >> > >Solargraphy.>> Other images do not include a view of the sun and >> > >this confirms that such >> > >>> long exposures can be made without view of the sun. Remember, >> > >in my >> > >>> original post I was wondering if the extreme brightness of >> > >the sun played >> > >>> some role in the exposure of paper in Solargraphy. Wesely is >> > >using film I >> > >>> believe but I haven't been able to confirm that. He might >> > >have used paper >> > >>> which would have made reciprocity irrelevant but the images >> > >look more like >> > >>> film then paper to me. >> > >>> >> > >>> -Francesco Fragomeni >> > >>> www.francescofragomeni.com >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> On Fri, Jan 20, 2012 at 5:46 AM, Diana Bloomfield < >> > >>> dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net> wrote: >> > >>> >> > >>> Francesco, >> > >>>> >> > >>>> I've only used very long exposures with pinhole cameras as >> > >well. Of >> > >>>> course, there are published reciprocity charts out >> > >there. (Check Eric >> > >>>> Renner's 'Pinhole Photography: Rediscovering a Historic >> > >Technique').>>> Although his published charts include only >> > >pinhole F-stops, I still think >> > >>>> you could glean something from them. And I do think >> > >that the information >> > >>>> that comes with film (or used to?) is fairly accurate-- at >> > >least for me. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> But from my experience, I agree with Gord here that some >> > >films "don't >> > >>>> seem >> > >>>> to vary significantly past a certain duration of >> > >exposure." That's >> > >>>> certainly been my experience (and not just with this high >> > >contrast film). >> > >>>> >> > >>>> I will also add that the published reciprocity charts I used >> > >never seemed >> > >>>> to offer all that much help to me. I typically base my >> > >long exposures on >> > >>>> the type of film, the type of (pinhole) camera I'm using, >> > >and the >> > >>>> available >> > >>>> light-- basically calculated guesswork, erring on the side of >> > >>>> over-exposure. (Quite scientific!). But with the >> > >right development, I >> > >>>> never seemed to have a problem. >> > >>>> >> > >>>> Diana >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> On Jan 19, 2012, at 11:53 PM, Gordon J. Holtslander wrote: >> > >>>> >> > >>>> I can't offer any mathematical insights, however the >> > >pinhole camera on >> > >>>> >> > >>>>> film work I have done usually involves long exposures. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> I started doing pinhole work with large format high >> > >contrast contact >> > >>>>> printing film and processed it with Dave Soemarko's LC1 >> > >developer mixed >> > >>>>> to >> > >>>>> minimize contrast in order to get a continuous tone negative. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> When used with this developer the film has an effective ASA >> > >of 1. Shots >> > >>>>> taken outside on a cloudy day would need an exposure of 1/2 >> > >hour. I >> > >>>>> also >> > >>>>> took a series of indoor photos where the exposure time as >> > >in the range >> > >>>>> of 6 >> > >>>>> to 8 hours. As long as I metered accurately my >> > >exposures were >> > >>>>> consistent >> > >>>>> regardless of the exposure time - from 15 minutes in full >> > >sun to 8 hours >> > >>>>> inside. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> Used in this way the film (at the time Kodak CGP) did not >> > >seem to >> > >>>>> exhibit >> > >>>>> any reciprocity failure, or perhaps the reciprocity failure >> > >did not >> > >>>>> vary in >> > >>>>> the range of exposure I was working with. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> My point is that perhaps with extremely long exposures the >> > >sensitivity>>>> of >> > >>>>> this film is consistent, and does not vary significantly >> > >past a certain >> > >>>>> duration of exposure. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> It was possible to get reciprocity compensation data for >> > >certain film. I >> > >>>>> don't think is was calculated, but done by empirical >> > >testing of each >> > >>>>> type >> > >>>>> of film. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> Try doing some empirical testing and see if your film >> > shows a >> > >>>>> continually >> > >>>>> increase in reciprocity failure, or if it stops or >> > >decreases after a >> > >>>>> certain. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> Photograph a grey scale in dim conditions and increase the >> > >exposure time >> > >>>>> and see what effect it has. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> I also read that when electronic flashes were first used, >> > >some films >> > >>>>> suffered from reciprocity failure due to extremely short >> > >exposure times. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> Hope this helps. >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> Gord >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>> ______________________________****_________________ >> > >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | >> > >http://altphotolist.org/****listinfo< >> http://altphotolist.org/**listinfo>>>> > > >> > >>>> >> > >>>> ______________________________**_________________ >> > >>> Alt-photo-process-list | >> > >http://altphotolist.org/**listinfo>> >> > >> >> > >> ______________________________**_________________ >> > >> Alt-photo-process-list | >> > >http://altphotolist.org/**listinfo> >> > >_______________________________________________ >> > >Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> > > From bobkiss at caribsurf.com Fri May 18 13:22:21 2012 From: bobkiss at caribsurf.com (BOB KISS) Date: Fri, 18 May 2012 09:22:21 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: TANGENTIALLY ON TOPIC: HELP W/ CS-5 & SCANNER? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: DEAR JEREMY, Thanks! That is exactly what I hoped for. I clicked the link, downloaded the plug in and unzipped it. My problem is that I don't know what to do next. Will the plug in and CS-5 find each other automatically once I restart or must I manually install it? And do I need to remove and re-install the Epson driver and scanner programs? *****Please contact me off list as this might not be too interesting to the others: bobkiss at caribsurf.com CHEERS! BOB -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Moore Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2012 12:45 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: TANGENTIALLY ON TOPIC: HELP W/ CS-5 & SCANNER? Bob, Photoshop CS5 does not come with the TWAIN plug-in needed to scan directly into Photoshop. You can find the Adobe help page to download and install this plug-in here: http://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/kb/twain-plug-photoshop-cs4-cs5.html#main_P hotoshop_CS5_and_TWAIN - Jeremy ps: Supposedly, TWAIN stands for "Technology Without an Interesting Name" :-) On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 4:52 PM, BOB KISS wrote: > DEAR LIST, > > As I use my Epson V750 pro mostly to scan negs to make enlarged > digital negs for alt processes I think the following question can be > considered on topic. > > This is for those who have used CS-5 and the V750. I just bought a young > but used laptop that has CS-5 and Lightroom on it for about a quarter of > what I would pay for CS-5 alone. Good deal. I just loaded on my scanner > and printer drivers and programs and went on line to update them to the > latest versions. With my old computer and CS-2, when I want to scan, I hit > "file" them "import" and there are Epson VL750 and Epson Digital Ice as two > of the options waiting for me along with WAI and my webcam. This allows me > to scan right into Frotoshop and save the files as PSDs, my preferred file. > I seem to recall that it was a matter of setting some preferences in > Frotoshop to connect with the scanner (or was it the scanner program to > work > with Frotoshop?) but, either way, it works. Can anyone tell me how to set > this up with CS-5 and Epson Scan? I have hunted for "preferences" or > "advanced settings" buttons and I know I will be embarrassed at how simple > this will be when you tell me but, after 3 hours, I am stumped! > > No, I don't want to use Epson scan alone to generate a Tiff and > then open it in Frotoshop and convert to PSD.I REALLY want to open CS-5, > hit > "file" then "import" and find the Epson scanner there exactly as I do on my > old computer with CS-2. I am praying that some recent feud between Epson > and Adobe has not rendered this impossible. Any hope? > > CHEERS! > > BOB > > > > > > Please check my website: > http://www.bobkiss.com/ > > > > > "Live as if you are going to die tomorrow. Learn as if you are going to > live forever". Mahatma Gandhi > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 7148 (20120518) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From donsbryant at gmail.com Mon May 21 23:18:29 2012 From: donsbryant at gmail.com (Don) Date: Mon, 21 May 2012 19:18:29 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Texas Chrystotype Message-ID: <4FBACD45.5080600@gmail.com> Today an individual directed me to two Youtube videos that describe and demonstrate the 'Texas Chrystotype' I had not heard of this variation before. Is this something new? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBWtiVf-_Mo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmTTiqM9FN8 Thanks, Don Bryant From ejnphoto at sbcglobal.net Wed May 23 04:30:38 2012 From: ejnphoto at sbcglobal.net (EJ Photo) Date: Tue, 22 May 2012 23:30:38 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Texas Chrystotype In-Reply-To: <4FBACD45.5080600@gmail.com> References: <4FBACD45.5080600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7B68837E44A34D2DAD4372F9BF13D1A8@Eric64> It's new to me too Don. However, I don't see that it's wildly different than other processes. While he claims no humidification, the room is at what rH? Interesting none the less. Eric Neilsen Eric Neilsen Photography 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 Dallas, TX 75226 www.ericneilsenphotography.com skype me with ejprinter Let's Talk Photography -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Don Sent: Monday, May 21, 2012 6:18 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Texas Chrystotype Today an individual directed me to two Youtube videos that describe and demonstrate the 'Texas Chrystotype' I had not heard of this variation before. Is this something new? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBWtiVf-_Mo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmTTiqM9FN8 Thanks, Don Bryant _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From workshops at polychrome.nl Wed May 23 07:23:37 2012 From: workshops at polychrome.nl (Kees Brandenburg) Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 09:23:37 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Texas Chrystotype In-Reply-To: <4FBACD45.5080600@gmail.com> References: <4FBACD45.5080600@gmail.com> Message-ID: some more details: http://www.alternativephotography.com/wp/processes/chrysotypes/texas-chrysotype-formula kees On 22 mei 2012, at 01:18, Don wrote: > Today an individual directed me to two Youtube videos that describe and demonstrate the 'Texas Chrystotype' > > I had not heard of this variation before. > > Is this something new? > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBWtiVf-_Mo > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmTTiqM9FN8 > > Thanks, > > Don Bryant > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From JoeSarff at aol.com Wed May 23 15:22:18 2012 From: JoeSarff at aol.com (JoeSarff at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 11:22:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Texas Chrystotype Message-ID: There is an article in the last issue of View Camera describing the process in detail. From ejnphoto at sbcglobal.net Wed May 23 22:56:24 2012 From: ejnphoto at sbcglobal.net (EJ Photo) Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 17:56:24 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Texas Chrysotype In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And what are your impressions? Did you do Chrysotype before? Ware Method? Eric Neilsen Eric Neilsen Photography 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 Dallas, TX 75226 www.ericneilsenphotography.com skype me with ejprinter Let's Talk Photography -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of JoeSarff at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 10:22 AM To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Texas Chrystotype There is an article in the last issue of View Camera describing the process in detail. _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From fdfragomeni at gmail.com Wed May 23 23:14:33 2012 From: fdfragomeni at gmail.com (Francesco Fragomeni) Date: Wed, 23 May 2012 16:14:33 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Spare Old/ Expired Silver Gel Fiber Paper? Message-ID: Hi all, I've got a project coming up (well series of experiments) that call for silver gel fiber paper. If anyone has any old or expired fiber paper (4x5 or larger) that they'd like to unload please let me know. If it's really old and you know you won't use it, a donation (I'll pay shipping) would be hugely appreciated! Otherwise, I'm looking for low cost here, it is old expired paper after all. Anyway, let me know! Thank you! -Francesco Fragomeni www.francescofragomeni.com From C.Breukel at lumc.nl Thu May 24 07:56:42 2012 From: C.Breukel at lumc.nl (C.Breukel at lumc.nl) Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 07:56:42 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Texas Chrysotype In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A7240EC250@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern> Interesting new approach, although I must say that I am underwhelmed by the presented prints, the look flat and grey, and coating was not optimal on some. I do hope it is digital representation, and that the prints are much nicer in real. Did anybody actually had these prints in hands? Best, Cor > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt- > photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of EJ Photo > Sent: donderdag 24 mei 2012 0:56 > To: 'The alternative photographic processes mailing list' > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Texas Chrysotype > > And what are your impressions? Did you do Chrysotype before? Ware Method? > > Eric Neilsen > Eric Neilsen Photography > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 > Dallas, TX 75226 > > www.ericneilsenphotography.com > skype me with ejprinter > Let's Talk Photography > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf > Of > JoeSarff at aol.com > Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 10:22 AM > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Texas Chrystotype > > There is an article in the last issue of View Camera describing the > process > in detail. > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Thu May 24 08:08:59 2012 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 11:08:59 +0300 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Texas Chrysotype In-Reply-To: <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A7240EC250@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern> References: <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A7240EC250@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern> Message-ID: Interesting for sure! I agree, the *reproductions* look very bad - especially so, compared to a couple of Chrysotypes (proper; using Mike Ware's formulae...) I did a couple of years ago. I got very strong (= good / pretty convincing blacks) images with a tonal smoothness close to pt/pd's... Regards, Loris. 2012/5/24 : > Interesting new approach, although I must say that I am underwhelmed by the presented prints, the look flat and grey, and coating was not optimal on some. > > I do hope it is digital representation, and that the prints are much nicer in real. > > Did anybody actually had these prints in hands? > > Best, > > Cor > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt- >> photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of EJ Photo >> Sent: donderdag 24 mei 2012 0:56 >> To: 'The alternative photographic processes mailing list' >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Texas Chrysotype >> >> And what are your impressions? Did you do Chrysotype before? Ware Method? >> >> Eric Neilsen >> Eric Neilsen Photography >> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 >> Dallas, TX 75226 >> >> www.ericneilsenphotography.com >> skype me with ejprinter >> Let's Talk Photography >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org >> [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf >> Of >> JoeSarff at aol.com >> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 10:22 AM >> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Texas Chrystotype >> >> There is an article in the last issue of View Camera describing the >> process >> ?in detail. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From tsll at localnet.com Thu May 24 19:45:35 2012 From: tsll at localnet.com (therold (terry) lindquist) Date: Thu, 24 May 2012 14:45:35 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Spare Old/ Expired Silver Gel Fiber Paper? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Francesco: I have the following out-of-date HALOID enlarging paper for sale: 250 sheets DW 18" x 24" 125 sheets DW 24" x 24" Lots of silver in this paper.... If interested, contact me off list at: tsll at localnet.com terry On May 23, 2012, at 6:14 PM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > Hi all, > > I've got a project coming up (well series of experiments) that call for > silver gel fiber paper. If anyone has any old or expired fiber paper (4x5 > or larger) that they'd like to unload please let me know. If it's really > old and you know you won't use it, a donation (I'll pay shipping) would be > hugely appreciated! Otherwise, I'm looking for low cost here, it is old > expired paper after all. Anyway, let me know! Thank you! > > -Francesco Fragomeni > www.francescofragomeni.com > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From jon at sharperstill.com Fri May 25 00:07:38 2012 From: jon at sharperstill.com (Jon Reid) Date: Fri, 25 May 2012 10:07:38 +1000 Subject: [alt-photo] Pt/Pd from paper negs Message-ID: <-8796263558640010043@unknownmsgid> Saw this via twitter this morning. Thought it might be of interest or inspire. http://www.acurator.com/blog/2012/05/peter-liepke.html Jon From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Sat May 26 16:00:54 2012 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Sat, 26 May 2012 16:00:54 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Pt/Pd from paper negs In-Reply-To: <-8796263558640010043@unknownmsgid> References: <-8796263558640010043@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Thanks Jon. The graininess of the paper negatives brings film-like quality to the prints. Very inspiring. I recently purchases some very textured kozo paper and was looking for an inspiration. I might try paper negative. Marek > From: jon at sharperstill.com > Date: Fri, 25 May 2012 10:07:38 +1000 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] Pt/Pd from paper negs > > Saw this via twitter this morning. Thought it might be of interest or inspire. > > http://www.acurator.com/blog/2012/05/peter-liepke.html > > Jon > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net Sat May 26 16:41:57 2012 From: dhbloomfield at bellsouth.net (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Sat, 26 May 2012 12:41:57 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Pt/Pd from paper negs In-Reply-To: <-8796263558640010043@unknownmsgid> References: <-8796263558640010043@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <89336A51-ACB9-4C6C-8CC2-0B9DD0E22893@bellsouth.net> Yes I've seen some of Peter's work before. I also like this look very much. Thanks for posting the link. They almost look like lithographs to me. Diana On May 24, 2012, at 8:07 PM, Jon Reid wrote: > Saw this via twitter this morning. Thought it might be of interest or inspire. > > http://www.acurator.com/blog/2012/05/peter-liepke.html > > Jon > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Sat May 26 22:30:21 2012 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Sat, 26 May 2012 22:30:21 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Tricolor printing/Photoshop In-Reply-To: <89336A51-ACB9-4C6C-8CC2-0B9DD0E22893@bellsouth.net> References: <-8796263558640010043@unknownmsgid>, <89336A51-ACB9-4C6C-8CC2-0B9DD0E22893@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: All, I am having a mental block. I know somebody posted it before, but I just can't come up with it. I would like to display on the screen a 'simulation' of RGB gum printing. That is to take for example R channel and colour it cyan, then take G channel colour it magenta and combine with the previous layer to display effect of the two layers printed together, etc. Marek From cryberg at comcast.net Sun May 27 02:12:31 2012 From: cryberg at comcast.net (Charles Ryberg) Date: Sat, 26 May 2012 19:12:31 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Tricolor printing/Photoshop In-Reply-To: References: <-8796263558640010043@unknownmsgid>, <89336A51-ACB9-4C6C-8CC2-0B9DD0E22893@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <0C1BD437641C4CFF88697D7DD3E3750C@hpPC> Couldn't you add a cyan layer using screen then flatten. Add magenta to the other and flatten. Then open both, superimpose them and make the top layer about 50% transparent? If I have some time tomorrow I'll try it. I can't think what benefit it would give you. Charles Portland, Oregon From fotodave at dsoemarko.us Sun May 27 03:40:05 2012 From: fotodave at dsoemarko.us (Dave S (fotodave)) Date: Sat, 26 May 2012 23:40:05 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Tricolor printing/Photoshop In-Reply-To: References: <-8796263558640010043@unknownmsgid>, <89336A51-ACB9-4C6C-8CC2-0B9DD0E22893@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <000301cd3bba$68038770$380a9650$@dsoemarko.us> If it is for illustration purpose only, you could take an RGB image, convert it CMYK. Then if you want to illustrate C and M combination, just delete or hide the Y and K channels. Same for other combinations. The colors shown would be a little too good to be true, however. If you want it to be more accurate, you can create a blank CMYK image of the same size as the image you want to illustrate. Then for the C channel (or layer, I forgot what terminology Photoshop uses), copy the Red channel of the original image but *invert* it. Same for other channel and leave the K channel empty. This is assuming your use straight inversion of RGB to CMY (the method that the late Katherine prefers). Dave -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Marek Matusz Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2012 6:30 PM To: alt photo Subject: [alt-photo] Tricolor printing/Photoshop All, I am having a mental block. I know somebody posted it before, but I just can't come up with it. I would like to display on the screen a 'simulation' of RGB gum printing. That is to take for example R channel and colour it cyan, then take G channel colour it magenta and combine with the previous layer to display effect of the two layers printed together, etc. Marek _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From cryberg at comcast.net Sun May 27 03:40:28 2012 From: cryberg at comcast.net (Charles Ryberg) Date: Sat, 26 May 2012 20:40:28 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Tricolor printing/Photoshop In-Reply-To: References: <-8796263558640010043@unknownmsgid>, <89336A51-ACB9-4C6C-8CC2-0B9DD0E22893@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <7283BE22A9624A7B9C46CD92100C8171@hpPC> My earlier suggestion seems to work but I forgot to say you have to change the mode of the color separations from grayscale to RGB and after you apply the screen layer you have to flatten the layers. I'm still not sure why you would want to do this. Charles Portland Oregon From mail at loris.medici.name Sun May 27 08:35:27 2012 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Sun, 27 May 2012 11:35:27 +0300 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Tricolor printing/Photoshop In-Reply-To: <7283BE22A9624A7B9C46CD92100C8171@hpPC> References: <-8796263558640010043@unknownmsgid> <89336A51-ACB9-4C6C-8CC2-0B9DD0E22893@bellsouth.net> <7283BE22A9624A7B9C46CD92100C8171@hpPC> Message-ID: Dave's description is spot-on. Charles, this kind of demonstration would perfect for workshop settings (or lectures) for giving a short overview of the process... Regards, Loris. 2012/5/27 Charles Ryberg : > ... > I'm still not sure why you would want to do this. From workshops at polychrome.nl Sun May 27 11:48:09 2012 From: workshops at polychrome.nl (Kees Brandenburg) Date: Sun, 27 May 2012 13:48:09 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Tricolor printing/Photoshop In-Reply-To: References: <-8796263558640010043@unknownmsgid> <89336A51-ACB9-4C6C-8CC2-0B9DD0E22893@bellsouth.net> <7283BE22A9624A7B9C46CD92100C8171@hpPC> Message-ID: <3479F035-121C-44D0-832A-2D4E48B61CA7@polychrome.nl> ...and don't forget to check 'show channels in color' in settings > interface kees On 27 mei 2012, at 10:35, Loris Medici wrote: > Dave's description is spot-on. > > Charles, this kind of demonstration would perfect for workshop > settings (or lectures) for giving a short overview of the process... > > Regards, > Loris. > > > 2012/5/27 Charles Ryberg : >> ... >> I'm still not sure why you would want to do this. > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From jean.daubas at wanadoo.fr Sun May 27 18:11:28 2012 From: jean.daubas at wanadoo.fr (Jean Daubas) Date: Sun, 27 May 2012 20:11:28 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Paper negatives / Peter Liepke was Re: Re: Pt/Pd from paper negs In-Reply-To: <89336A51-ACB9-4C6C-8CC2-0B9DD0E22893@bellsouth.net> References: <-8796263558640010043@unknownmsgid> <89336A51-ACB9-4C6C-8CC2-0B9DD0E22893@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <401A66871F4E4539958E4FAA88CAA678@Jeandesktop> Hi all, Another interesting link describing Peter Liepke? methods and showing him using waxed paper negatives (for Gum bichromate process in this case): http://www.gallery270.com/shared-files/Peter-Liepke-Step-by-Step-Gum-Bichromate-Printing.pdf Hope it helps! Alternative cheers from france, jean -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jean Daubas, auteur-photographe Rue des Trouillets 25640 OUGNEY-DOUVOT France +33 (0)6 81 53 12 89 From: Diana Bloomfield Sent: Saturday, May 26, 2012 6:41 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Pt/Pd from paper negs From ejnphoto at sbcglobal.net Sun May 27 18:34:52 2012 From: ejnphoto at sbcglobal.net (EJ Photo) Date: Sun, 27 May 2012 13:34:52 -0500 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Texas Chrysotype In-Reply-To: References: <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A7240EC250@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern> Message-ID: <2F63CC0734E64F0DAA5A9CC8BB7D493F@Eric64> Having made Chrysotypes on various papers, wood slabs, with great dmax and with ease, I could see no reason to do this method other than to try it. Yes, I'd agree with all that the images seemed flat. If one was to make a video, why wouldn't you use a good, or great image range. Eric Neilsen Eric Neilsen Photography 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 Dallas, TX 75226 www.ericneilsenphotography.com skype me with ejprinter Let's Talk Photography -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Loris Medici Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2012 3:09 AM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Texas Chrysotype Interesting for sure! I agree, the *reproductions* look very bad - especially so, compared to a couple of Chrysotypes (proper; using Mike Ware's formulae...) I did a couple of years ago. I got very strong (= good / pretty convincing blacks) images with a tonal smoothness close to pt/pd's... Regards, Loris. 2012/5/24 : > Interesting new approach, although I must say that I am underwhelmed by the presented prints, the look flat and grey, and coating was not optimal on some. > > I do hope it is digital representation, and that the prints are much nicer in real. > > Did anybody actually had these prints in hands? > > Best, > > Cor > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt- >> photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of EJ Photo >> Sent: donderdag 24 mei 2012 0:56 >> To: 'The alternative photographic processes mailing list' >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Texas Chrysotype >> >> And what are your impressions? Did you do Chrysotype before? Ware Method? >> >> Eric Neilsen >> Eric Neilsen Photography >> 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 >> Dallas, TX 75226 >> >> www.ericneilsenphotography.com >> skype me with ejprinter >> Let's Talk Photography >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org >> [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf >> Of >> JoeSarff at aol.com >> Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2012 10:22 AM >> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Texas Chrystotype >> >> There is an article in the last issue of View Camera describing the >> process >> ?in detail. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Sun May 27 19:27:20 2012 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Sun, 27 May 2012 19:27:20 +0000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Tricolor printing/Photoshop In-Reply-To: <3479F035-121C-44D0-832A-2D4E48B61CA7@polychrome.nl> References: <-8796263558640010043@unknownmsgid>, <89336A51-ACB9-4C6C-8CC2-0B9DD0E22893@bellsouth.net>, , <7283BE22A9624A7B9C46CD92100C8171@hpPC>, , <3479F035-121C-44D0-832A-2D4E48B61CA7@polychrome.nl> Message-ID: Thanks to everybody that contributed. I am digesting all the info. My inquiry was to illustrate (more or less) how the gum print is made on the computer and for example how mistakes are made (printing wrong collor for a given separation, I actually made some prints like that one time).I am printing now, so will have to get to it later Marek > From: workshops at polychrome.nl > Date: Sun, 27 May 2012 13:48:09 +0200 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Tricolor printing/Photoshop > > ...and don't forget to check 'show channels in color' in settings > interface > > kees > > > > > On 27 mei 2012, at 10:35, Loris Medici wrote: > > > Dave's description is spot-on. > > > > Charles, this kind of demonstration would perfect for workshop > > settings (or lectures) for giving a short overview of the process... > > > > Regards, > > Loris. > > > > > > 2012/5/27 Charles Ryberg : > >> ... > >> I'm still not sure why you would want to do this. > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From fdfragomeni at gmail.com Sun May 27 20:30:59 2012 From: fdfragomeni at gmail.com (Francesco Fragomeni) Date: Sun, 27 May 2012 13:30:59 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Coating Silver Chloride Paper - Similar to AZO? In-Reply-To: <20120316143410.8703911BC8A@karen.lavabit.com> References: <12833.35481.bm@smtp103.rog.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20120316143410.8703911BC8A@karen.lavabit.com> Message-ID: Hi all, can someone provide a contact email address for Denise Ross at The Light Farm? I can't seem to find a contact on the website. Thank you! -Francesco On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 7:34 AM, etienne garbaux < photographeur at nerdshack.com> wrote: > Ian wrote: > > some claim that very precise temperature control (0.1 C) is necessary, >> factory-scale operations do not typically operate with such accuracy - >> timing, concentration and flow rate of additions are the keys to >> consistency. >> > > Commercial operations test the emulsion at several stages of the process, > and adjust later steps (generally, the ripening) to get consistent results. > Absent this feedback loop (which I presume is the case with home > emulsion-makers), you do need very accurate temperature control (as well as > accurate control of timing, concentration, and flow rate of additions) to > get consistent results. > > Best regards, > > > etienne > > > > > > > ______________________________**_________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/**listinfo > From dtwilliams3 at comcast.net Sun May 27 20:56:14 2012 From: dtwilliams3 at comcast.net (Daniel Williams) Date: Sun, 27 May 2012 13:56:14 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Coating Silver Chloride Paper - Similar to AZO? In-Reply-To: References: <12833.35481.bm@smtp103.rog.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20120316143410.8703911BC8A@karen.lavabit.com> Message-ID: <4FC294EE.2000607@comcast.net> Francesco, You can reach Denise at editor at thelightfarm.com Dan Williams On 5/27/2012 1:30 PM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > Hi all, can someone provide a contact email address for Denise Ross at The > Light Farm? I can't seem to find a contact on the website. Thank you! > > -Francesco > > > On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 7:34 AM, etienne garbaux< > photographeur at nerdshack.com> wrote: > From fdfragomeni at gmail.com Sun May 27 21:25:31 2012 From: fdfragomeni at gmail.com (Francesco Fragomeni) Date: Sun, 27 May 2012 14:25:31 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Coating Silver Chloride Paper - Similar to AZO? In-Reply-To: <4FC294EE.2000607@comcast.net> References: <12833.35481.bm@smtp103.rog.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <20120316143410.8703911BC8A@karen.lavabit.com> <4FC294EE.2000607@comcast.net> Message-ID: Thank you Dan! -Francesco On Sun, May 27, 2012 at 1:56 PM, Daniel Williams wrote: > Francesco, > > You can reach Denise at editor at thelightfarm.com > > Dan Williams > > > On 5/27/2012 1:30 PM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > >> Hi all, can someone provide a contact email address for Denise Ross at The >> Light Farm? I can't seem to find a contact on the website. Thank you! >> >> -Francesco >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 7:34 AM, etienne garbaux< >> photographeur at nerdshack.com> wrote: >> >> > > ______________________________**_________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/**listinfo > From fdfragomeni at gmail.com Sun May 27 21:30:32 2012 From: fdfragomeni at gmail.com (Francesco Fragomeni) Date: Sun, 27 May 2012 14:30:32 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Salt Printing (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? Message-ID: Hi all, I'm wondering if there is an optimal resource for Salt Printing in book form? Or maybe even an excellent website dedicated to the process and instruction. Dick Arentz's book on Pt/Pl is probably the best known resource for Pt/Pl and I'm wondering if there is anything like it for Salt Printing? Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Francesco Fragomeni www.francescofragomeni.com From fdfragomeni at gmail.com Sun May 27 22:10:16 2012 From: fdfragomeni at gmail.com (Francesco Fragomeni) Date: Sun, 27 May 2012 15:10:16 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Questions Pertaining to the Differences and Similarities of Salted Paper Printing (silver-chloride) and Papers Like Azo Message-ID: Hi all, My fascination with handmade alternatives to the old Azo continues and while slowly I am surely learning (often thanks to many of you). >From what I understand, Azo was basically a salted paper (silver-chloride) formula made with high quality ingredients. I'm away from my studio and darkroom for an extended time and haven't yet figured out a way to experiment with all of this where I am so I'm hoping to learn from some of your experiences. I plan to experiment with various silver-chloride based formulas that I've come across. Many are gelatin-emulsion based formula but I'm curious to see if they can be made into solution and coated like a traditional salt print (I'm also fascinated with coating onto fixed-out silver paper which I do have instructions for that supposedly work). Anyway, for those who do traditional salt printing, I understand that it is a printing out process but can anyone tell me if it can be exposed to form a latent image and then developed in Amidol to produce a print? The components of a traditional salt print are nearly the same as the components of the commercial silver-chloride papers of the past (including Azo) so I imagine that they could be treated similarly. Or perhaps this is common knowledge and I'm just behind the curve. Can any of the salt printers here shed some light on this for me please. Thanks so much! -Francesco Fragomeni www.francescofragomeni.com From clay at clayharmon.com Sun May 27 23:16:49 2012 From: clay at clayharmon.com (clay harmon's personal website email account) Date: Sun, 27 May 2012 19:16:49 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Salt Printing (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5981CB73-2841-4A7D-A011-6A0B7E1E2DE5@clayharmon.com> Reilly: http://albumen.conservation-us.org/library/monographs/reilly/ and recently, Eleanor Young?s Thesis at RMIT in Oz: http://researchbank.rmit.edu.au/view/rmit:7850 are both good places to start On May 27, 2012, at 5:30 PM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm wondering if there is an optimal resource for Salt Printing in book > form? Or maybe even an excellent website dedicated to the process and > instruction. Dick Arentz's book on Pt/Pl is probably the best known > resource for Pt/Pl and I'm wondering if there is anything like it for Salt > Printing? > > Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > Francesco Fragomeni > www.francescofragomeni.com > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From bobkiss at caribsurf.com Sun May 27 23:32:49 2012 From: bobkiss at caribsurf.com (KISS BOB) Date: Sun, 27 May 2012 19:32:49 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Salt Printing (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: DEAR FRANCESCO, I had never made a salt print when I read the chapter in James THE BOOK OF ALTERNATIVE PROCESSES but, just by reading that chapter I made some beautiful, fully toned (subtle highlights to deep shadows) salt prints. The other two sources suggested are excellent as well. CHEERS! BOB On Sun, 27 May 2012 14:30:32 -0700 Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm wondering if there is an optimal resource for Salt >Printing in book > form? Or maybe even an excellent website dedicated to >the process and > instruction. Dick Arentz's book on Pt/Pl is probably the >best known > resource for Pt/Pl and I'm wondering if there is >anything like it for Salt > Printing? > > Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, >Francesco Fragomeni > www.francescofragomeni.com > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | >http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From jon at sharperstill.com Sun May 27 23:57:34 2012 From: jon at sharperstill.com (Jon Reid) Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 09:57:34 +1000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Salt Printing (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <-8323975827466629949@unknownmsgid> Ellie Young's book is available from the Gold Street Studios website http://www.goldstreetstudios.com.au/photographic-supplies/the-salt-print-manual-ellie-young/ Jon On 28/05/2012, at 9:32, KISS BOB wrote: > DEAR FRANCESCO, > I had never made a salt print when I read the chapter in James THE BOOK OF ALTERNATIVE PROCESSES but, just by reading that chapter I made some beautiful, fully toned (subtle highlights to deep shadows) salt prints. The other two sources suggested are excellent as well. > CHEERS! > BOB > > On Sun, 27 May 2012 14:30:32 -0700 > Francesco Fragomeni wrote: >> Hi all, >> I'm wondering if there is an optimal resource for Salt Printing in book >> form? Or maybe even an excellent website dedicated to the process and >> instruction. Dick Arentz's book on Pt/Pl is probably the best known >> resource for Pt/Pl and I'm wondering if there is anything like it for Salt >> Printing? >> Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. >> Thanks, >> Francesco Fragomeni >> www.francescofragomeni.com >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From dtwilliams3 at comcast.net Mon May 28 00:07:15 2012 From: dtwilliams3 at comcast.net (Daniel Williams) Date: Sun, 27 May 2012 17:07:15 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Salt Printing (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FC2C1B3.2050603@comcast.net> Francesco Two books that I can recommend are: The Albumen & Salted Paper Book The History and Practice Of Photographic Printing 1840 - 1895 by James M. Reilly Published by Light Impressions, 1980 I believe this is considered to be the definitive modern work on the subject but is out of print and may be harder to find. I was able to have my local library get it for me from a university library. and The Book of Alternative Photographic Processes by Christopher James I have the second edition published by Delmar Cengage Learning, 2009 This book is in print. I got mine just last month from Amazon. Used copies of the first addition are readily available. I haven't seen the first edition but expect the information on this process hasn't changed much if at all. James has a large section on Salted Paper printing. The Reilly book has more of the history but both books are excellent sources for technical information. Liam Lawless has an interesting article over at Unblinking Eye http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/POP/pop.html Ed Buffuloe who owns the site also has his own article on the subject http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Salt/salt.html Dan Williams On 5/27/2012 2:30 PM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm wondering if there is an optimal resource for Salt Printing in book > form? Or maybe even an excellent website dedicated to the process and > instruction. Dick Arentz's book on Pt/Pl is probably the best known > resource for Pt/Pl and I'm wondering if there is anything like it for Salt > Printing? > > Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > Francesco Fragomeni > www.francescofragomeni.com > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > From gneissgirl at spamcop.net Mon May 28 01:10:10 2012 From: gneissgirl at spamcop.net (Mary) Date: Sun, 27 May 2012 19:10:10 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Salt Printing (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? In-Reply-To: <4FC2C1B3.2050603@comcast.net> References: <4FC2C1B3.2050603@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4FC2D072.5070006@spamcop.net> The Albumen & Salted Paper Book is available for free online. http://albumen.conservation-us.org/library/monographs/reilly/toc.html md On 5/27/2012 6:07 PM, Daniel Williams wrote: > Francesco > > Two books that I can recommend are: > > The Albumen & Salted Paper Book The History and Practice Of > Photographic Printing 1840 - 1895 > by James M. Reilly Published by Light Impressions, 1980 > > I believe this is considered to be the definitive modern work on the > subject but is out of print and may be harder to find. I was able to > have my local library get it for me from a university library. > > From dtwilliams3 at comcast.net Mon May 28 03:01:35 2012 From: dtwilliams3 at comcast.net (Daniel Williams) Date: Sun, 27 May 2012 20:01:35 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Salt Printing (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? In-Reply-To: <4FC2D072.5070006@spamcop.net> References: <4FC2C1B3.2050603@comcast.net> <4FC2D072.5070006@spamcop.net> Message-ID: <4FC2EA8F.70803@comcast.net> Mary, Thank you for the information. I did not know the book is available online. I took a lot of notes when I read it but it is good to know that I still have access to the text. Dan Williams On 5/27/2012 6:10 PM, Mary wrote: > The Albumen & Salted Paper Book is available for free online. > http://albumen.conservation-us.org/library/monographs/reilly/toc.html > > md From dspector at charter.net Mon May 28 03:10:13 2012 From: dspector at charter.net (Denny) Date: Sun, 27 May 2012 20:10:13 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Clearing PtPd mouned on aluminum? Message-ID: <000f01cd3c7f$66a142d0$33e3c870$@charter.net> If you're clearing PtPd prints mounted on aluminum (as for example, the process used at least occasionally by Irving Penn), what's the best way to clear the prints? I'm guessing that the aluminum would interfere with the clearing, with a large excess of aluminum competing with the iron. HCl or EDTA might not be effective ( or might even be dangerous, liberating hydrogen gas). Am I over-thinking this? Thanks, Denny From mineurdecharbon at skynet.be Mon May 28 05:28:35 2012 From: mineurdecharbon at skynet.be (Philippe Berger) Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 07:28:35 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Salt Printing (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? References: <4FC2C1B3.2050603@comcast.net> Message-ID: hello; I am a ald book yo sell "Trait" Pratique d'impressions photographque sur papier albumine par c Klary 1888 Very nice vintage kook and very good condtion Contact me if you are interesting Philippe mineurdecharbon at skynet.be http://www.philippeberger.net/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Williams" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 2:07 AM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Salt Printing (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? > Francesco > > Two books that I can recommend are: > > The Albumen & Salted Paper Book The History and Practice Of > Photographic Printing 1840 - 1895 > by James M. Reilly Published by Light Impressions, 1980 > > I believe this is considered to be the definitive modern work on the > subject but is out of print and may be harder to find. I was able to have > my local library get it for me from a university library. > > and > > The Book of Alternative Photographic Processes > by Christopher James I have the second edition published by Delmar > Cengage Learning, 2009 > > This book is in print. I got mine just last month from Amazon. Used > copies of the first addition are readily available. I haven't seen the > first edition but expect the information on this process hasn't changed > much if at all. James has a large section on Salted Paper printing. The > Reilly book has more of the history but both books are excellent sources > for technical information. > > Liam Lawless has an interesting article over at Unblinking Eye > http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/POP/pop.html Ed Buffuloe who owns the > site also has his own article on the subject > http://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Salt/salt.html > > Dan Williams > > On 5/27/2012 2:30 PM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I'm wondering if there is an optimal resource for Salt Printing in book >> form? Or maybe even an excellent website dedicated to the process and >> instruction. Dick Arentz's book on Pt/Pl is probably the best known >> resource for Pt/Pl and I'm wondering if there is anything like it for >> Salt >> Printing? >> >> Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. >> >> Thanks, >> Francesco Fragomeni >> www.francescofragomeni.com >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature database 7173 (20120527) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > From jean.daubas at wanadoo.fr Mon May 28 08:45:42 2012 From: jean.daubas at wanadoo.fr (Jean Daubas) Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 10:45:42 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Salt Printing (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3442E87175344F93806B417604E6A6EE@Jeandesktop> Hi all, Though it is not ?contemporary?, you could probably find very interesting information in the: The Photograph Manual, by N.G. Burgess (1862) It?s full of details about all aspects of Negative processes, methods for salting papers, and so on... I have a PdF version of it which I should be happy to share freely with anyone interested on this list! If you are interested, please, e-mail me off list so that I may send you the file. here is my e-mail adddress : jean.daubas at wanadoo.fr Hope it helps, Artistic cheers from France, Jean -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jean Daubas, auteur-photographe Rue des Trouillets 25640 OUGNEY-DOUVOT France +33 (0)6 81 53 12 89 From: Francesco Fragomeni Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2012 11:30 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Salt Printing (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? Hi all, I'm wondering if there is an optimal resource for Salt Printing in book form? Or maybe even an excellent website dedicated to the process and instruction. Dick Arentz's book on Pt/Pl is probably the best known resource for Pt/Pl and I'm wondering if there is anything like it for Salt Printing? Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Francesco Fragomeni www.francescofragomeni.com _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From jon at sharperstill.com Mon May 28 09:55:08 2012 From: jon at sharperstill.com (Jon Reid) Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 19:55:08 +1000 Subject: [alt-photo] Test Message-ID: <-7070183308956874333@unknownmsgid> Why can't I see a message I sent earlier about Salt Print books? Did anyone else see my message? Jon From mail at loris.medici.name Mon May 28 10:09:57 2012 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 13:09:57 +0300 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Test In-Reply-To: <-7070183308956874333@unknownmsgid> References: <-7070183308956874333@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: Yes we saw your message (about Ellie Young's .pdf...) Jon. In case of some mail services, you don't see your echoed message from the list... (e.g. Gmail) Maybe the mail service for your mail address shows the same behavior? 2012/5/28 Jon Reid : > Why can't I see a message I sent earlier about Salt Print books? > > Did anyone else see my message? From jon at sharperstill.com Mon May 28 10:43:36 2012 From: jon at sharperstill.com (Jon Reid) Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 20:43:36 +1000 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Test In-Reply-To: References: <-7070183308956874333@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <-8003110776773562679@unknownmsgid> Ah, thanks Loris. My mail does go through Gmail. Jon On 28/05/2012, at 20:10, Loris Medici wrote: > Yes we saw your message (about Ellie Young's .pdf...) Jon. In case of > some mail services, you don't see your echoed message from the list... > (e.g. Gmail) > > Maybe the mail service for your mail address shows the same behavior? > > > > 2012/5/28 Jon Reid : >> Why can't I see a message I sent earlier about Salt Print books? >> >> Did anyone else see my message? > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From bevconway at comcast.net Mon May 28 12:55:04 2012 From: bevconway at comcast.net (Bev Conwayu) Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 05:55:04 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Salt Printing (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? In-Reply-To: <3442E87175344F93806B417604E6A6EE@Jeandesktop> References: <3442E87175344F93806B417604E6A6EE@Jeandesktop> Message-ID: <9879797F-5434-4A1B-8044-ED3B2D7ADE53@comcast.net> Hi Jean, I would be very interested in a copy of the PDF version of The Photograph Manual by N.G. Burgess. I teach the albumen process in a small art college ( New Hampshire Institute of Art in Manchester, NH). All photography majors are required to take a Handmade Photography class . . Students work on three processes, cyanotypes, albumen and palladium. Many love the look of their albumen prints. They also enjoy the day We all crack lots of eggs. I really love spreading the knowledge of the early processes. Thank you for you willingness to share a valuable resource. Regards, Bev Conway Sent from my iPad On May 28, 2012, at 1:45 AM, "Jean Daubas" wrote: > Hi all, > > Though it is not ?contemporary?, you could probably find very interesting information in the: > The Photograph Manual, by N.G. Burgess (1862) > > It?s full of details about all aspects of Negative processes, methods for salting papers, and so on... > > I have a PdF version of it which I should be happy to share freely with anyone interested on this list! > > If you are interested, please, e-mail me off list so that I may send you the file. > here is my e-mail adddress : > jean.daubas at wanadoo.fr > > Hope it helps, > > Artistic cheers from France, > Jean > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Jean Daubas, auteur-photographe > Rue des Trouillets > 25640 OUGNEY-DOUVOT > France > +33 (0)6 81 53 12 89 > > > > From: Francesco Fragomeni > Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2012 11:30 PM > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > Subject: [alt-photo] Salt Printing (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? > Hi all, > > I'm wondering if there is an optimal resource for Salt Printing in book > form? Or maybe even an excellent website dedicated to the process and > instruction. Dick Arentz's book on Pt/Pl is probably the best known > resource for Pt/Pl and I'm wondering if there is anything like it for Salt > Printing? > > Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > Francesco Fragomeni > www.francescofragomeni.com > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From fdfragomeni at gmail.com Mon May 28 13:05:13 2012 From: fdfragomeni at gmail.com (Francesco Fragomeni) Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 06:05:13 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Salt Printing (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? In-Reply-To: <9879797F-5434-4A1B-8044-ED3B2D7ADE53@comcast.net> References: <3442E87175344F93806B417604E6A6EE@Jeandesktop> <9879797F-5434-4A1B-8044-ED3B2D7ADE53@comcast.net> Message-ID: Just wanted to send out a quick thanks to everyone who's responded already! This is fantastic! Thank you! -Francesco On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 5:55 AM, Bev Conwayu wrote: > Hi Jean, > > I would be very interested in a copy of the PDF version of The Photograph > Manual by N.G. Burgess. I teach the albumen process in a small art college > ( New Hampshire Institute of Art in Manchester, NH). All photography > majors are required to take a Handmade Photography class . . Students work > on three processes, cyanotypes, albumen and palladium. Many love the look > of their albumen prints. They also enjoy the day We all crack lots of eggs. > I really love spreading the knowledge of the early processes. > > Thank you for you willingness to share a valuable resource. > > Regards, > > Bev Conway > > > > Sent from my iPad > > On May 28, 2012, at 1:45 AM, "Jean Daubas" wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > Though it is not ?contemporary?, you could probably find very > interesting information in the: > > The Photograph Manual, by N.G. Burgess (1862) > > > > It?s full of details about all aspects of Negative processes, methods > for salting papers, and so on... > > > > I have a PdF version of it which I should be happy to share freely with > anyone interested on this list! > > > > If you are interested, please, e-mail me off list so that I may send you > the file. > > here is my e-mail adddress : > > jean.daubas at wanadoo.fr > > > > Hope it helps, > > > > Artistic cheers from France, > > Jean > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Jean Daubas, auteur-photographe > > Rue des Trouillets > > 25640 OUGNEY-DOUVOT > > France > > +33 (0)6 81 53 12 89 > > > > > > > > From: Francesco Fragomeni > > Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2012 11:30 PM > > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > > Subject: [alt-photo] Salt Printing (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? > > Hi all, > > > > I'm wondering if there is an optimal resource for Salt Printing in book > > form? Or maybe even an excellent website dedicated to the process and > > instruction. Dick Arentz's book on Pt/Pl is probably the best known > > resource for Pt/Pl and I'm wondering if there is anything like it for > Salt > > Printing? > > > > Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. > > > > Thanks, > > Francesco Fragomeni > > www.francescofragomeni.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From jean.daubas at wanadoo.fr Mon May 28 21:46:26 2012 From: jean.daubas at wanadoo.fr (Jean Daubas) Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 23:46:26 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Burgess manual - Re: Re: Salt Printing (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? In-Reply-To: <9879797F-5434-4A1B-8044-ED3B2D7ADE53@comcast.net> References: <3442E87175344F93806B417604E6A6EE@Jeandesktop> <9879797F-5434-4A1B-8044-ED3B2D7ADE53@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9DDC72DF3A694E21A5D94AA96B8BDBC3@Jeandesktop> Hi all! I am so glad that after so many years being a rather ?silent? member of our list , today I may also bring to you my very modest contribution! My proposal for the ?The Photograph Manual?, by N.G. Burgess (1862) has already generated so many requests (15 +) that I am looking for an easy way to share it; anyway it is a too large file to be sent as an attached file with e-mail. So I shall very probably share it via a ?cloud? site; it will be very probably Dropbox and I ?ll letyou now as soon as I make it available. Sorry, I?m very busy these days and it may need 2 or 3 days before I come back to this subject. Now, shame to me : I have not yet taken time to read this book and even to find for myself inspiration in these early processes! Alternative cheers fromFrance Jean From: Bev Conwayu Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 2:55 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Salt Printing (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? Hi Jean, I would be very interested in a copy of the PDF version of The Photograph Manual by N.G. Burgess. I teach the albumen process in a small art college ( New Hampshire Institute of Art in Manchester, NH). All photography majors are required to take a Handmade Photography class . . Students work on three processes, cyanotypes, albumen and palladium. Many love the look of their albumen prints. They also enjoy the day We all crack lots of eggs. I really love spreading the knowledge of the early processes. From omg at shaw.ca Tue May 29 01:19:42 2012 From: omg at shaw.ca (Olga Grgar) Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 18:19:42 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Burgess manual - Re: Re: Salt Printing (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? In-Reply-To: <9DDC72DF3A694E21A5D94AA96B8BDBC3@Jeandesktop> References: <3442E87175344F93806B417604E6A6EE@Jeandesktop> <9879797F-5434-4A1B-8044-ED3B2D7ADE53@comcast.net> <9DDC72DF3A694E21A5D94AA96B8BDBC3@Jeandesktop> Message-ID: <003c01cd3d39$2026b410$60741c30$@ca> You can download PDF file from this site: http://openlibrary.org/books/OL7005462M/The_photograph_manual Hope that helps, Milenko Grgar -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Jean Daubas Sent: May-28-12 2:46 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Burgess manual - Re: Re: Salt Printing (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? Hi all! I am so glad that after so many years being a rather ?silent? member of our list , today I may also bring to you my very modest contribution! My proposal for the ?The Photograph Manual?, by N.G. Burgess (1862) has already generated so many requests (15 +) that I am looking for an easy way to share it; anyway it is a too large file to be sent as an attached file with e-mail. So I shall very probably share it via a ?cloud? site; it will be very probably Dropbox and I ?ll letyou now as soon as I make it available. Sorry, I?m very busy these days and it may need 2 or 3 days before I come back to this subject. Now, shame to me : I have not yet taken time to read this book and even to find for myself inspiration in these early processes! Alternative cheers fromFrance Jean From: Bev Conwayu Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 2:55 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Salt Printing (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? Hi Jean, I would be very interested in a copy of the PDF version of The Photograph Manual by N.G. Burgess. I teach the albumen process in a small art college ( New Hampshire Institute of Art in Manchester, NH). All photography majors are required to take a Handmade Photography class . . Students work on three processes, cyanotypes, albumen and palladium. Many love the look of their albumen prints. They also enjoy the day We all crack lots of eggs. I really love spreading the knowledge of the early processes. _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From jean.daubas at wanadoo.fr Tue May 29 02:46:48 2012 From: jean.daubas at wanadoo.fr (Jean Daubas) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 04:46:48 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Burgess manual - Re: Re: SaltPrinting (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? In-Reply-To: <003c01cd3d39$2026b410$60741c30$@ca> References: <3442E87175344F93806B417604E6A6EE@Jeandesktop><9879797F-5434-4A1B-8044-ED3B2D7ADE53@comcast.net><9DDC72DF3A694E21A5D94AA96B8BDBC3@Jeandesktop> <003c01cd3d39$2026b410$60741c30$@ca> Message-ID: Hi all, I?ve finally put the file on Dropbox, where you may download it using this link https://www.dropbox.com/s/n8fgxs203xmkpcg/The%20Photograph%20Manual%20-%20by%20N.G.%20Burgess%20%281862%29.pdf It should normally work without difficulty. Enjoy! Jean From fdfragomeni at gmail.com Tue May 29 04:32:07 2012 From: fdfragomeni at gmail.com (Francesco Fragomeni) Date: Mon, 28 May 2012 21:32:07 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Burgess manual - Re: Re: SaltPrinting (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? In-Reply-To: References: <3442E87175344F93806B417604E6A6EE@Jeandesktop> <9879797F-5434-4A1B-8044-ED3B2D7ADE53@comcast.net> <9DDC72DF3A694E21A5D94AA96B8BDBC3@Jeandesktop> <003c01cd3d39$2026b410$60741c30$@ca> Message-ID: Thank you Jean! This should be a good read! -Francesco On Mon, May 28, 2012 at 7:46 PM, Jean Daubas wrote: > Hi all, > > I?ve finally put the file on Dropbox, where you may download it using this > link > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/n8fgxs203xmkpcg/The%20Photograph%20Manual%20-%20by%20N.G.%20Burgess%20%281862%29.pdf > > It should normally work without difficulty. > Enjoy! > > Jean > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From don at sweetlegal.co.nz Tue May 29 04:43:41 2012 From: don at sweetlegal.co.nz (Don Sweet) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 16:43:41 +1200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Burgess manual - Re: Re:SaltPrinting (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? References: <3442E87175344F93806B417604E6A6EE@Jeandesktop><9879797F-5434-4A1B-8044-ED3B2D7ADE53@comcast.net><9DDC72DF3A694E21A5D94AA96B8BDBC3@Jeandesktop><003c01cd3d39$2026b410$60741c30$@ca> Message-ID: <010b01cd3d55$b0409770$0402a8c0@east> Thank you Jean Don Sweet ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jean Daubas" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2012 2:46 PM Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Burgess manual - Re: Re:SaltPrinting (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? > Hi all, > > I?ve finally put the file on Dropbox, where you may download it using this link > https://www.dropbox.com/s/n8fgxs203xmkpcg/The%20Photograph%20Manual%20-%20by%20N.G.%20Burgess%20%281862%29.pdf > > It should normally work without difficulty. > Enjoy! > > Jean > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From peteralan.photography at btinternet.com Tue May 29 05:15:24 2012 From: peteralan.photography at btinternet.com (peteralan photography) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 06:15:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Burgess manual - Re: Re: SaltPrinting (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? In-Reply-To: References: <3442E87175344F93806B417604E6A6EE@Jeandesktop><9879797F-5434-4A1B-8044-ED3B2D7ADE53@comcast.net><9DDC72DF3A694E21A5D94AA96B8BDBC3@Jeandesktop> <003c01cd3d39$2026b410$60741c30$@ca> Message-ID: <1338268524.81171.YahooMailNeo@web87402.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> many thanks peter ________________________________ From: Jean Daubas To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Sent: Tuesday, 29 May 2012, 3:46 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Burgess manual - Re: Re: SaltPrinting (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? Hi all, I?ve finally put the file on Dropbox, where you may download it using this link ? ? https://www.dropbox.com/s/n8fgxs203xmkpcg/The%20Photograph%20Manual%20-%20by%20N.G.%20Burgess%20%281862%29.pdf It should normally work without difficulty. Enjoy! Jean _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From michel at debar.org Tue May 29 06:14:19 2012 From: michel at debar.org (Michel Debar) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 08:14:19 +0200 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Burgess manual - Re: Re: Salt Printing (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? In-Reply-To: <9DDC72DF3A694E21A5D94AA96B8BDBC3@Jeandesktop> References: <3442E87175344F93806B417604E6A6EE@Jeandesktop> <9879797F-5434-4A1B-8044-ED3B2D7ADE53@comcast.net> <9DDC72DF3A694E21A5D94AA96B8BDBC3@Jeandesktop> Message-ID: An easy site: demo.ovh.com (or is it .net ?) On May 28, 2012 11:46 PM, "Jean Daubas" wrote: > Hi all! > > I am so glad that after so many years being a rather ?silent? member of > our list , today I may also bring to you my very modest contribution! > > My proposal for the > ?The Photograph Manual?, by N.G. Burgess (1862) > has already generated so many requests (15 +) that I am looking for an > easy way to share it; anyway it is a too large file to be sent as an > attached file with e-mail. So I shall very probably share it via a ?cloud? > site; it will be very probably Dropbox and I ?ll letyou now as soon as I > make it available. Sorry, I?m very busy these days and it may need 2 or 3 > days before I come back to this subject. > > Now, shame to me : I have not yet taken time to read this book and even to > find for myself inspiration in these early processes! > > Alternative cheers fromFrance > Jean > > > From: Bev Conwayu > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2012 2:55 PM > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Salt Printing (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? > Hi Jean, > > I would be very interested in a copy of the PDF version of The Photograph > Manual by N.G. Burgess. I teach the albumen process in a small art college > ( New Hampshire Institute of Art in Manchester, NH). All photography > majors are required to take a Handmade Photography class . . Students work > on three processes, cyanotypes, albumen and palladium. Many love the look > of their albumen prints. They also enjoy the day We all crack lots of eggs. > I really love spreading the knowledge of the early processes. > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From dingedangedonge at yahoo.fr Tue May 29 07:49:47 2012 From: dingedangedonge at yahoo.fr (ding dangdong) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 08:49:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: [alt-photo] Re : Re: Burgess manual - Re: Re: SaltPrinting (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? In-Reply-To: References: <3442E87175344F93806B417604E6A6EE@Jeandesktop><9879797F-5434-4A1B-8044-ED3B2D7ADE53@comcast.net><9DDC72DF3A694E21A5D94AA96B8BDBC3@Jeandesktop> <003c01cd3d39$2026b410$60741c30$@ca> Message-ID: <1338277787.72694.YahooMailNeo@web132403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Big,big thank you for this Jean! I'm just finalising my chemical shopping list for my labo and this is very timely. If by chance you plan to come to this year's 'Foire de Bievres' (this weekend) i would be definitely honored if you'd let me buy you a drink. Cheers, Rodrigo ________________________________ De?: Jean Daubas ??: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Envoy? le : Mardi 29 mai 2012 4h46 Objet?: [alt-photo] Re: Burgess manual - Re: Re: SaltPrinting (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? Hi all, I?ve finally put the file on Dropbox, where you may download it using this link ? ? https://www.dropbox.com/s/n8fgxs203xmkpcg/The%20Photograph%20Manual%20-%20by%20N.G.%20Burgess%20%281862%29.pdf It should normally work without difficulty. Enjoy! Jean _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From fdfragomeni at gmail.com Tue May 29 15:01:50 2012 From: fdfragomeni at gmail.com (Francesco Fragomeni) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 08:01:50 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Collodion POP/ Collodio-Chloride/ Collodion Aristotype Paper - Instructions, Books, Resources? Message-ID: Hi all, My last message asking about instruction and book resources for Salt Printing and Albumen turned out some really fantastic responses so I figure I'd throw out another similar request, this time for ideal comprehensive books and instruction for making Collodion POP paper also known as Collodio-Chloride and Collodion Aristotype Paper. Any comprehensive resources and instruction on this process would be hugely appreciated. Thank you as usual! Best, Francesco Fragomeni www.francescofragomeni.com From fdfragomeni at gmail.com Tue May 29 15:35:57 2012 From: fdfragomeni at gmail.com (Francesco Fragomeni) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 08:35:57 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Collodion POP/ Collodio-Chloride/ Collodion Aristotype Paper - Instructions, Books, Resources? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here is a start by the way. This was written by Mark Osterman. I've talked to Mark about this a few times but it hasn't been until now that I've been particularly interested in the process. The process sounds relatively similar to other similar processes and not overly difficult. I think I may give this a try based on its marked benefits over Albumen. Anyone else have any resources on this process? Best, Francesco On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 8:01 AM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > Hi all, > > My last message asking about instruction and book resources for Salt > Printing and Albumen turned out some really fantastic responses so I figure > I'd throw out another similar request, this time for ideal comprehensive > books and instruction for making Collodion POP paper also known as > Collodio-Chloride and Collodion Aristotype Paper. Any comprehensive > resources and instruction on this process would be hugely appreciated. > Thank you as usual! > > Best, > Francesco Fragomeni > www.francescofragomeni.com > > From dtwilliams3 at comcast.net Tue May 29 15:50:59 2012 From: dtwilliams3 at comcast.net (Daniel Williams) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 08:50:59 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Collodion POP/ Collodio-Chloride/ Collodion Aristotype Paper - Instructions, Books, Resources? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FC4F063.5040706@comcast.net> Francesco, Mark Osterman has an article on it posted here http://www.alternativephotography.com/wp/pop-printing-out-process/printing-out-processes I know he will be conducting a work shop on this in November at George Eastman House. http://www.eastmanhouse.org/events/detail/photo-workshop-18-2012 Dan Williams On 5/29/2012 8:01 AM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > Hi all, > > My last message asking about instruction and book resources for Salt > Printing and Albumen turned out some really fantastic responses so I figure > I'd throw out another similar request, this time for ideal comprehensive > books and instruction for making Collodion POP paper also known as > Collodio-Chloride and Collodion Aristotype Paper. Any comprehensive > resources and instruction on this process would be hugely appreciated. > Thank you as usual! > > Best, > Francesco Fragomeni > www.francescofragomeni.com > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > > From fdfragomeni at gmail.com Tue May 29 16:37:37 2012 From: fdfragomeni at gmail.com (Francesco Fragomeni) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 09:37:37 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Collodion POP/ Collodio-Chloride/ Collodion Aristotype Paper - Instructions, Books, Resources? In-Reply-To: <4FC4F063.5040706@comcast.net> References: <4FC4F063.5040706@comcast.net> Message-ID: H Dan, Thats actually the same article I posted above. I've talked to Mark about the workshop and I'd love to make it if time permitted but I'm also interested in starting straight away rather then waiting. I'm excited to try this out. I've got a few potential experiments almost ready to start :) -Francesco On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 8:50 AM, Daniel Williams wrote: > Francesco, > > Mark Osterman has an article on it posted here http://www.** > alternativephotography.com/wp/**pop-printing-out-process/** > printing-out-processes I know he will be conducting a work shop on this in November at George > Eastman House. http://www.eastmanhouse.org/**events/detail/photo-workshop- > **18-2012 > > Dan Williams > > > > On 5/29/2012 8:01 AM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> My last message asking about instruction and book resources for Salt >> Printing and Albumen turned out some really fantastic responses so I >> figure >> I'd throw out another similar request, this time for ideal comprehensive >> books and instruction for making Collodion POP paper also known as >> Collodio-Chloride and Collodion Aristotype Paper. Any comprehensive >> resources and instruction on this process would be hugely appreciated. >> Thank you as usual! >> >> Best, >> Francesco Fragomeni >> www.francescofragomeni.com >> ______________________________**_________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/**listinfo >> >> >> > > ______________________________**_________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/**listinfo > From robindreyer at gmail.com Tue May 29 19:43:36 2012 From: robindreyer at gmail.com (Robin Dreyer) Date: Tue, 29 May 2012 15:43:36 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Resource for Salt Printing Message-ID: The salt printing information in Christopher James's "The Book of Alternative Photographic Processes" is excellent. I think Dan Estabrook had quite a bit of input on that chapter. Robin > From: Francesco Fragomeni > Sent: Sunday, May 27, 2012 11:30 PM > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > Subject: [alt-photo] Salt Printing (silver-chloride) Book/ Resource? > Hi all, > > I'm wondering if there is an optimal resource for Salt Printing in book > form? Or maybe even an excellent website dedicated to the process and > instruction. Dick Arentz's book on Pt/Pl is probably the best known > resource for Pt/Pl and I'm wondering if there is anything like it for Salt > Printing? > > Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks, > Francesco Fragomeni > www.francescofragomeni.com > ______________________________ _________________ From fdfragomeni at gmail.com Wed May 30 14:54:08 2012 From: fdfragomeni at gmail.com (Francesco Fragomeni) Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 07:54:08 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Collodio-Chloride and Collodion-Based Silver-Chloride Processes: Strontium-Chloride vs Sodium Chloride? Message-ID: Hi all, I have a question that I'm hoping someone may be able to help me with. I've sent this same email to Denise Ross as well as Mark Osterman and figured I'd present the same questions to all of you in hopes that someone here might also have relevant information. Based on my current environment and resources, I've decided to concentrate my efforts on two variants of Collodio-Chloride processes. Specifically, I'll be working with the Collodio-Chloride POP process (Aristotype Process) described in moderate detail by Mark Osterman and I'm very interested in working with a variant of Ron Mowrey's Silver-Chloride Azo-like contact speed emulsion described in his book but substituting collodion in place of gelatin. My question pertains to the use of Strontium-Chloride vs Sodium Chloride in the Collodio-Chloride (Aristotype) process and subsequently any advantage of substituting Strontium-Chloride for Sodium-Chloride in Ron's formula. I found a reference (middle of left page) c.1865 in the Journal of British Photography in which a reference is made to using both Sodium-Chloride and Strontium-Chloride in the Collodio-Chloride process. The description says that Sodium was used first but subsequently Strontium was found to "answer better". There is also a reference to a similarity to another formula using Magnesium-Chloride and stating that other chlorides soluble in alcohol are effective. I assume it may have something to do with solubility in alcohol? Sodium-Chloride is soluble in both water and alcohol but perhaps Strontium-Chloride is more soluble in alcohol and therefore more effective with collodion? The preference is what I am curious about. Also, all of the references that I found suggest that the preference may have something to do with the subsequent color of the print and making observing toning easier. Either way, I have Strontium on the way in case I choose to compare it with Sodium-Chloride. I'm not particularly interested in experimenting for the sake of experimentation. I'm interested in finding an effective and repeatable process to work with so if I an just get this answered by someone who knows better then I then that would be hugely advantageous. Regarding Ron's formula for the contact speed Azo-like emulsion in his book, this is my priority and knowing if Strontium-chloride is more effective in collodion then Sodium-Chloride becomes important to know. >From all of my research, collodion appears to be a direct replacement that can be used (and was found to be advantageous) in place of Albumen and gelatin in most if not all Salted Paper processes so hopefully there will be few if any obstacles but clarification on the Strontium-Chloride vs Sodium-Chloride issue could be very useful and save me some wasted materials and money. If you have any information that may help clarify any of my questions please let me know. Thanks so much! Best, Francesco Fragomeni www.francescofragomeni.com From crhymer at northwestel.net Wed May 30 16:14:26 2012 From: crhymer at northwestel.net (Clarence Rhymer) Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 10:14:26 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Collodion POP/ Collodio-Chloride/ Collodion Aristotype Paper - Instructions, Books, Resources? In-Reply-To: References: <4FC4F063.5040706@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4FC64762.4070401@northwestel.net> Hello Francesco, Collodion POP is fairly straightforward. May I offer a few hints: When adding the alcohol to the silver solution in step "D", add the alcohol a bit at a time with stirring. If one adds the alcohol at one go, the silver nitrate will probably precipitate out. When adding the silver nitrate solution to the salted Collodion, slow addition and thorough mixing will yield a better result. One can use the syringe method while stirring the Collodion or the addition of small volumes at a time of silver solution with vigorous mixing/shaking after each addition. Either should result in a suspension of silver chloride in Collodion that will be stable for quite a long time. The final mixture is not particularly sensitive to low level tungsten light, so mixing and pouring do not require a safe light. A sixty watt tungsten bulb is fine and makes it easier to see what you are doing, as long as there is no fluorescent light or daylight in the room. However, the suspension should be stored in complete darkness long-term.The coated unexposed paper has good long-term stability in the dark.When rinsing the paper after exposure, it is important to make sure that the wash water is *warm *and has some chloride content, or the rinse will take a very long time indeed.Poorly rinsed paper will not tone properly. Remember, Collodion was used as a barrier, and is rather resistant to letting water or chemicals through the surface. I find that baryta paper (the type used by Harmon, etc. for silver gelatin paper) is the best support for Collodion POP. The ink-jet variety of baryta is manufactured to achieve different goals. However, some types may work.Arrowroot sized Strathmore 300 works, as does Yupo (no sizing required). Finally, I can't stress enough how useful a workshop or tutorial with Mark Osterman, France Scully, or Ron Mowrey would be.Not only will you get excellent instruction and hands-on experience in the process at hand, but you will have access to their encyclopaedicknowledge of the history and practice of photographic processes from Ni?pce to the present, and a framework in which to place the diverse processes historically, scientifically, economically and socially. You will also discover the various ways that processes like wet-plate Collodion were adapted (later to be abandoned) to achieve the goals that were later realized by silver-gelatin. If you can only acquire one book, /Alternative Photographic Processes/ by Christopher James (as others have also recommended) is the book you need.I have both editions, but prefer and recommend the second, although IIRC it doesn't cover Collodion POP - I'd have to look. As to substituting Collodion for gelatin to make an azo type emulsion, remember that the formation, shape, location, etc. etc. etc. of silver halide crystals in gelatin is a very different animal to the suspension of silver chloride in collodion. Where to start, what to say next, how to end? Perhaps read Haist, talk to Ron, better still, save yourself some time and money and take one of the workshops. Unless I am mistaken, the silver gelatin azo emulsion that Ron makes is contact speed, but not a POP, although of course one can use many contact and even enlarging papers to Print Out rather than Develop Out. The reverse is not necessarily true. If it is a POP you are looking for, Collodion works very well, uses *very little silver*, and is, dare I say, archival on a good support. The results are remarkable. Cheers, Clarence Rhymer Fort Smith, NT Canada On 29/05/2012 10:37 AM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > H Dan, > > Thats actually the same article I posted above. I've talked to Mark about > the workshop and I'd love to make it if time permitted but I'm also > interested in starting straight away rather then waiting. I'm excited to > try this out. I've got a few potential experiments almost ready to start :) > > -Francesco > > > From fdfragomeni at gmail.com Wed May 30 16:57:22 2012 From: fdfragomeni at gmail.com (Francesco Fragomeni) Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 09:57:22 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Collodion POP/ Collodio-Chloride/ Collodion Aristotype Paper - Instructions, Books, Resources? In-Reply-To: <4FC64762.4070401@northwestel.net> References: <4FC4F063.5040706@comcast.net> <4FC64762.4070401@northwestel.net> Message-ID: Clarence, Thanks for the response and the information. Ideally, Ron's formula would be my first interest as I'm particularly interested in a contact speed develop-out process. My current location and resources would likely make working with gelatin more difficult then I'd like to deal with, hence my interest in trying this formula with collodion as a substitute for the gelatin. I may still give it a go to see if collodion can be used as a viable substitute. If it don't yield anything then I'll put it out of my mind. Regarding Collodio-Chloride POP (Aristotype), it would be my ideal backup to the contact speed formula. My one question, which I just sent out a message about a little while ago, is the use of Strontium-Chloride in Collodio-Chloride POP rather then Sodium-Chloride. I'm curious as to why this particular chloride is used over Sodium-Chloride which is most common in most other common salted paper formulas including Albumen and gelatin. All in all, my interests in substitutes is intended to make things easier on me but I think in that effort I may just be overcomplicating things. I'll probably try a few things but if they quickly prove useless I'll just stick to the proven methods. -Francesco On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 9:14 AM, Clarence Rhymer wrote: > Hello Francesco, > > Collodion POP is fairly straightforward. May I offer a few hints: > > When adding the alcohol to the silver solution in step "D", add the > alcohol a bit at a time with stirring. If one adds the alcohol at one go, > the silver nitrate will probably precipitate out. > When adding the silver nitrate solution to the salted Collodion, slow > addition and thorough mixing will yield a better result. One can use the > syringe method while stirring the Collodion or the addition of small > volumes at a time of silver solution with vigorous mixing/shaking after > each addition. Either should result in a suspension of silver chloride in > Collodion that will be stable for quite a long time. > The final mixture is not particularly sensitive to low level tungsten > light, so mixing and pouring do not require a safe light. A sixty watt > tungsten bulb is fine and makes it easier to see what you are doing, as > long as there is no fluorescent light or daylight in the room. However, > the suspension should be stored in complete darkness long-term.The coated > unexposed paper has good long-term stability in the dark.When rinsing the > paper after exposure, it is important to make sure that the wash water is > *warm *and has some chloride content, or the rinse will take a very long > time indeed.Poorly rinsed paper will not tone properly. Remember, > Collodion was used as a barrier, and is rather resistant to letting water > or chemicals through the surface. > > I find that baryta paper (the type used by Harmon, etc. for silver gelatin > paper) is the best support for Collodion POP. The ink-jet variety of > baryta is manufactured to achieve different goals. However, some types may > work.Arrowroot sized Strathmore 300 works, as does Yupo (no sizing > required). > > Finally, I can't stress enough how useful a workshop or tutorial with Mark > Osterman, France Scully, or Ron Mowrey would be.Not only will you get > excellent instruction and hands-on experience in the process at hand, but > you will have access to their encyclopaedicknowledge of the history and > practice of photographic processes from Ni?pce to the present, and a > framework in which to place the diverse processes historically, > scientifically, economically and socially. > > You will also discover the various ways that processes like wet-plate > Collodion were adapted (later to be abandoned) to achieve the goals that > were later realized by silver-gelatin. > > If you can only acquire one book, /Alternative Photographic Processes/ by > Christopher James (as others have also recommended) is the book you need.I > have both editions, but prefer and recommend the second, although IIRC it > doesn't cover Collodion POP - I'd have to look. > > As to substituting Collodion for gelatin to make an azo type emulsion, > remember that the formation, shape, location, etc. etc. etc. of silver > halide crystals in gelatin is a very different animal to the suspension of > silver chloride in collodion. Where to start, what to say next, how to > end? Perhaps read Haist, talk to Ron, better still, save yourself some > time and money and take one of the workshops. Unless I am mistaken, the > silver gelatin azo emulsion that Ron makes is contact speed, but not a POP, > although of course one can use many contact and even enlarging papers to > Print Out rather than Develop Out. The reverse is not necessarily true. > > If it is a POP you are looking for, Collodion works very well, uses *very > little silver*, and is, dare I say, archival on a good support. The > results are remarkable. > > Cheers, > > Clarence Rhymer > Fort Smith, NT > Canada > > > > > On 29/05/2012 10:37 AM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > >> H Dan, >> >> Thats actually the same article I posted above. I've talked to Mark about >> the workshop and I'd love to make it if time permitted but I'm also >> interested in starting straight away rather then waiting. I'm excited to >> try this out. I've got a few potential experiments almost ready to start >> :) >> >> -Francesco >> >> >> >> ______________________________**_________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/**listinfo > From fdfragomeni at gmail.com Wed May 30 18:05:25 2012 From: fdfragomeni at gmail.com (Francesco Fragomeni) Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 11:05:25 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Collodion POP/ Collodio-Chloride/ Collodion Aristotype Paper - Instructions, Books, Resources? In-Reply-To: References: <4FC4F063.5040706@comcast.net> <4FC64762.4070401@northwestel.net> Message-ID: Clarence, One more question, do you tone your Collodio-Chloride POP prints? If I tone, I imagine I'd tone in a Gold Chloride/ Sodium Thiocyanate toner as was common in it's day. Toning is something that I haven't read much about in specific reference to Collodio-Chloride POP. I've just read that it uses the same toning procedures as Albumen. I would like as black and neutral of a tone as I can achieve. Most of the examples of Collodio-Chloride that I've seen have that characteristic but I'm unsure if it is the raw process's inherent tonal characteristic or if it is from toning. The Reilly book references Thiocyanate toners as most common with Collodion-based salt formulas. As I understand, Gold-Chloride/ Sodium Thiocyanate toners produce neutral blacks. If that is the key then the Gold-Chloride is going to be the most expensive component of the whole process. Let me know your thoughts. Best, Francesco On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > Clarence, > > Thanks for the response and the information. Ideally, Ron's formula would > be my first interest as I'm particularly interested in a contact speed > develop-out process. My current location and resources would likely make > working with gelatin more difficult then I'd like to deal with, hence my > interest in trying this formula with collodion as a substitute for the > gelatin. I may still give it a go to see if collodion can be used as a > viable substitute. If it don't yield anything then I'll put it out of my > mind. > > Regarding Collodio-Chloride POP (Aristotype), it would be my ideal backup > to the contact speed formula. My one question, which I just sent out a > message about a little while ago, is the use of Strontium-Chloride in > Collodio-Chloride POP rather then Sodium-Chloride. I'm curious as to why > this particular chloride is used over Sodium-Chloride which is most common > in most other common salted paper formulas including Albumen and gelatin. > > All in all, my interests in substitutes is intended to make things easier > on me but I think in that effort I may just be overcomplicating things. > I'll probably try a few things but if they quickly prove useless I'll just > stick to the proven methods. > > -Francesco > > > On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 9:14 AM, Clarence Rhymer wrote: > >> Hello Francesco, >> >> Collodion POP is fairly straightforward. May I offer a few hints: >> >> When adding the alcohol to the silver solution in step "D", add the >> alcohol a bit at a time with stirring. If one adds the alcohol at one go, >> the silver nitrate will probably precipitate out. >> When adding the silver nitrate solution to the salted Collodion, slow >> addition and thorough mixing will yield a better result. One can use the >> syringe method while stirring the Collodion or the addition of small >> volumes at a time of silver solution with vigorous mixing/shaking after >> each addition. Either should result in a suspension of silver chloride in >> Collodion that will be stable for quite a long time. >> The final mixture is not particularly sensitive to low level tungsten >> light, so mixing and pouring do not require a safe light. A sixty watt >> tungsten bulb is fine and makes it easier to see what you are doing, as >> long as there is no fluorescent light or daylight in the room. However, >> the suspension should be stored in complete darkness long-term.The coated >> unexposed paper has good long-term stability in the dark.When rinsing the >> paper after exposure, it is important to make sure that the wash water is >> *warm *and has some chloride content, or the rinse will take a very long >> time indeed.Poorly rinsed paper will not tone properly. Remember, >> Collodion was used as a barrier, and is rather resistant to letting water >> or chemicals through the surface. >> >> I find that baryta paper (the type used by Harmon, etc. for silver >> gelatin paper) is the best support for Collodion POP. The ink-jet variety >> of baryta is manufactured to achieve different goals. However, some types >> may work.Arrowroot sized Strathmore 300 works, as does Yupo (no sizing >> required). >> >> Finally, I can't stress enough how useful a workshop or tutorial with >> Mark Osterman, France Scully, or Ron Mowrey would be.Not only will you get >> excellent instruction and hands-on experience in the process at hand, but >> you will have access to their encyclopaedicknowledge of the history and >> practice of photographic processes from Ni?pce to the present, and a >> framework in which to place the diverse processes historically, >> scientifically, economically and socially. >> >> You will also discover the various ways that processes like wet-plate >> Collodion were adapted (later to be abandoned) to achieve the goals that >> were later realized by silver-gelatin. >> >> If you can only acquire one book, /Alternative Photographic Processes/ by >> Christopher James (as others have also recommended) is the book you need.I >> have both editions, but prefer and recommend the second, although IIRC it >> doesn't cover Collodion POP - I'd have to look. >> >> As to substituting Collodion for gelatin to make an azo type emulsion, >> remember that the formation, shape, location, etc. etc. etc. of silver >> halide crystals in gelatin is a very different animal to the suspension of >> silver chloride in collodion. Where to start, what to say next, how to >> end? Perhaps read Haist, talk to Ron, better still, save yourself some >> time and money and take one of the workshops. Unless I am mistaken, the >> silver gelatin azo emulsion that Ron makes is contact speed, but not a POP, >> although of course one can use many contact and even enlarging papers to >> Print Out rather than Develop Out. The reverse is not necessarily true. >> >> If it is a POP you are looking for, Collodion works very well, uses *very >> little silver*, and is, dare I say, archival on a good support. The >> results are remarkable. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Clarence Rhymer >> Fort Smith, NT >> Canada >> >> >> >> >> On 29/05/2012 10:37 AM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: >> >>> H Dan, >>> >>> Thats actually the same article I posted above. I've talked to Mark about >>> the workshop and I'd love to make it if time permitted but I'm also >>> interested in starting straight away rather then waiting. I'm excited to >>> try this out. I've got a few potential experiments almost ready to start >>> :) >>> >>> -Francesco >>> >>> >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/**listinfo >> > > From mustafaumutsarac at gmail.com Wed May 30 21:45:26 2012 From: mustafaumutsarac at gmail.com (Mustafa Umut Sarac) Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 00:45:26 +0300 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Collodio-Chloride and Collodion-Based Silver-Chloride Processes: Strontium-Chloride vs Sodium Chloride? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Francesco , Are you an member of APUG Forums ? Ron Mowrey is one of the member of forums and have 20000 posts. He checks the forums everyday and reply to any question in most detailed way and never drops from the discussion. He is registered as Photo Engineer and one of the patent owner of Kodachrome Process from Kodak. Come , register to there and Mark Osterman is a member also like few Weston Family members. There is a Homemade Emulsion and Alternative Process section also and quality discussion continiues. Umut From fdfragomeni at gmail.com Thu May 31 00:35:54 2012 From: fdfragomeni at gmail.com (Francesco Fragomeni) Date: Wed, 30 May 2012 20:35:54 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Collodio-Chloride and Collodion-Based Silver-Chloride Processes: Strontium-Chloride vs Sodium Chloride? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7D3FAE34-23CC-44E4-939D-612290FD6FC6@gmail.com> Umut, Yes, I am very familiar with APUG. My username is my last name (Fragomeni). I also know both Ron Mowrey and Mark Osterman and have had conversations at length with both on this topic. As i've mentioned previously, it is Ron's Silver-Chloride gelatin formula that I'm experimenting with. I'm waiting to hear back from Mark regarding some substitute questions I've posed. -Francesco Sent from my iPhone On May 30, 2012, at 5:45 PM, Mustafa Umut Sarac wrote: > Francesco , > > Are you an member of APUG Forums ? Ron Mowrey is one of the member of > forums and have 20000 posts. He checks the forums everyday and reply to any > question in most detailed way and never drops from the discussion. > He is registered as Photo Engineer and one of the patent owner of > Kodachrome Process from Kodak. > Come , register to there and Mark Osterman is a member also like few Weston > Family members. > There is a Homemade Emulsion and Alternative Process section also and > quality discussion continiues. > > Umut > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo From rs at silvergrain.org Thu May 31 09:03:07 2012 From: rs at silvergrain.org (Ryuji Suzuki) Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 05:03:07 -0400 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Collodio-Chloride and Collodion-Based Silver-Chloride Processes: Strontium-Chloride vs Sodium Chloride? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4FC733CB.3020605@silvergrain.org> I don't have experience with collodion process but in silver gelatin process, the counter ions in the halide jet don't matter, as long as they are alkaline metal or alkali earth metal ions, impurities are well controlled, and the molar concentrations are adjusted. Those cations are just wasted without participating in any reaction that forms silver halide crystals. If solubility in alcohol is a factor, that may be one thing, but then what alcohol concentration are you talking about? In silver gelatin, sodium, potassium, and sometimes ammonium ions are used. Ammonium ions have different effects on silver halide crystals in a pH-dependent manner, but Na and K are largely irrelevant (in most cases, they are removed from the emulsion before chemical sensitization phase). Emulsions that are used for printing out processes are very different from emulsions for developed out processes. Don't underestimate that difference. I also would not put too much emphasis on stuff written in old literature, unless you can validate the statement with modern science. Systematic research of how emulsion crystals are formed and what factors have influence, etc., had to wait for sensitive instrumental amplifiers, electron microscopes, and various laboratory equipment in the 20th century. If certain issues or terminology disappeared in later literature, it might be because the earlier debate became irrelevant under the light of new science. THere are countless examples like that. -- Ryuji Suzuki "When you're finished changing, you're finished." (Benjamin Franklin) From fdfragomeni at gmail.com Thu May 31 13:07:49 2012 From: fdfragomeni at gmail.com (Francesco Fragomeni) Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 06:07:49 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Collodio-Chloride and Collodion-Based Silver-Chloride Processes: Strontium-Chloride vs Sodium Chloride? In-Reply-To: <4FC733CB.3020605@silvergrain.org> References: <4FC733CB.3020605@silvergrain.org> Message-ID: Ryuji, Thanks for your thoughts. You're words are right in line with my assumptions. I'm no chemist but I have a basic understanding of what occurs when making these types of emulsions and while various different salts may have cause minor differences, I would assume that they are just that, minor. From my understanding, when an emulsion of this type is sensitized the NaCL and AgNO3 molecules exchange to produce silver-chloride (AgCl, the sensitive agent) and a non-sensitive byproduct that is typically discarded in the wash (sodium-nitrate, NaNO3). The only thing I can think of is that the Strontium-Chloride exchanges with Silver-Nitrate to produce Strontium-Nitrate which may lend itself to some specific color, perhaps a more prominent red that makes toning changes more evident. This is in line will what I've read, that Strontium lent a color that made toning easier to see. I'm still not sure about the alcohol solubility thing. -Francesco On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 2:03 AM, Ryuji Suzuki wrote: > I don't have experience with collodion process but in silver gelatin > process, the counter ions in the halide jet don't matter, as long as they > are alkaline metal or alkali earth metal ions, impurities are well > controlled, and the molar concentrations are adjusted. Those cations are > just wasted without participating in any reaction that forms silver halide > crystals. If solubility in alcohol is a factor, that may be one thing, but > then what alcohol concentration are you talking about? In silver gelatin, > sodium, potassium, and sometimes ammonium ions are used. Ammonium ions have > different effects on silver halide crystals in a pH-dependent manner, but > Na and K are largely irrelevant (in most cases, they are removed from the > emulsion before chemical sensitization phase). > > Emulsions that are used for printing out processes are very different from > emulsions for developed out processes. Don't underestimate that difference. > > I also would not put too much emphasis on stuff written in old literature, > unless you can validate the statement with modern science. Systematic > research of how emulsion crystals are formed and what factors have > influence, etc., had to wait for sensitive instrumental amplifiers, > electron microscopes, and various laboratory equipment in the 20th century. > If certain issues or terminology disappeared in later literature, it might > be because the earlier debate became irrelevant under the light of new > science. THere are countless examples like that. > > -- > Ryuji Suzuki > "When you're finished changing, you're finished." (Benjamin Franklin) > ______________________________**_________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/**listinfo > From fdfragomeni at gmail.com Thu May 31 13:11:29 2012 From: fdfragomeni at gmail.com (Francesco Fragomeni) Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 06:11:29 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Collodio-Chloride and Collodion-Based Silver-Chloride Processes: Strontium-Chloride vs Sodium Chloride? In-Reply-To: References: <4FC733CB.3020605@silvergrain.org> Message-ID: All in all, I have the materials for testing the original formula's as well as the variants I'm interested in. If I end up having problems I'll probably just stick to the original formulas but hopefully this will be relatively trouble free. In the case of using the collodion for the base of a develop-out emulsion, does anyone know if there might be any chemical reaction between the collodion and Amidol? I would assume not but one can never be too sure. -Francesco On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 6:07 AM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > Ryuji, > > Thanks for your thoughts. You're words are right in line with my > assumptions. I'm no chemist but I have a basic understanding of what occurs > when making these types of emulsions and while various different salts may > have cause minor differences, I would assume that they are just that, > minor. From my understanding, when an emulsion of this type is sensitized > the NaCL and AgNO3 molecules exchange to produce silver-chloride (AgCl, the > sensitive agent) and a non-sensitive byproduct that is typically discarded > in the wash (sodium-nitrate, NaNO3). The only thing I can think of is that > the Strontium-Chloride exchanges with Silver-Nitrate to produce > Strontium-Nitrate which may lend itself to some specific color, perhaps a > more prominent red that makes toning changes more evident. This is in line > will what I've read, that Strontium lent a color that made toning easier to > see. I'm still not sure about the alcohol solubility thing. > > -Francesco > > > On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 2:03 AM, Ryuji Suzuki wrote: > >> I don't have experience with collodion process but in silver gelatin >> process, the counter ions in the halide jet don't matter, as long as they >> are alkaline metal or alkali earth metal ions, impurities are well >> controlled, and the molar concentrations are adjusted. Those cations are >> just wasted without participating in any reaction that forms silver halide >> crystals. If solubility in alcohol is a factor, that may be one thing, but >> then what alcohol concentration are you talking about? In silver gelatin, >> sodium, potassium, and sometimes ammonium ions are used. Ammonium ions have >> different effects on silver halide crystals in a pH-dependent manner, but >> Na and K are largely irrelevant (in most cases, they are removed from the >> emulsion before chemical sensitization phase). >> >> Emulsions that are used for printing out processes are very different >> from emulsions for developed out processes. Don't underestimate that >> difference. >> >> I also would not put too much emphasis on stuff written in old >> literature, unless you can validate the statement with modern science. >> Systematic research of how emulsion crystals are formed and what factors >> have influence, etc., had to wait for sensitive instrumental amplifiers, >> electron microscopes, and various laboratory equipment in the 20th century. >> If certain issues or terminology disappeared in later literature, it might >> be because the earlier debate became irrelevant under the light of new >> science. THere are countless examples like that. >> >> -- >> Ryuji Suzuki >> "When you're finished changing, you're finished." (Benjamin Franklin) >> ______________________________**_________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/**listinfo >> > > From crhymer at northwestel.net Thu May 31 13:12:13 2012 From: crhymer at northwestel.net (Clarence Rhymer) Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 07:12:13 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Collodion POP/ Collodio-Chloride/ Collodion Aristotype Paper - Instructions, Books, Resources? In-Reply-To: References: <4FC4F063.5040706@comcast.net> <4FC64762.4070401@northwestel.net> Message-ID: <4FC76E2D.5070501@northwestel.net> Hello Francesco, I have toned my prints in Gold/Borax, Gold/Bicarbonate and Gold/Ammonium Thiocyanate. Yes, Gold is expensive, but one doesn't use all that much per print. IIRC the Thiocyanate was more black/neutral, but that was not my goal, so I can't say for sure. Remember, like wet-plate, these processes are done almost completely by inspection. It is a lot like "cooking with your mother". One adjusts the process until it looks right. You should tone for between 2-10 minutes. Any faster (more aggressive toner) and it does not tone well. If it takes more than 10 minutes you need to replenish. Since in POP one exposes by inspection and tones by inspection the results are rarely the same twice, but with experience one can achieve the desired result for that negative. As to which chloride to use (calcium, lithium, strontium, etc.) I believe it was claimed in the old literature that they resulted in different coloured prints. I don't recall seeing Sodium Chloride used. Mark would be able to give you a quick answer to that one. Strontium Chloride is easily available and not expensive, so I have never tried anything else. I have used both Sodium and Ammonium Chloride for albumen prints. As to substituting Collodion for Gelatin in an developing out formula, I would be surprised if this were achievable by plugging it into the formula. The former is made in Ether/Ethanol the latter in water. It is the controlled growth of the Silver Halide crystal in gelatin that gives the possibility of a developing out product that is exposed dry. Having said that, there were collodion dry-plates produced for a time and even colour sensitized collodion plates (bromide IIRC) used until the early part of the 20th century. Cheers, Clarence On 30/05/2012 12:05 PM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > Clarence, > > One more question, do you tone your Collodio-Chloride POP prints? If I > tone, I imagine I'd tone in a Gold Chloride/ Sodium Thiocyanate toner as > was common in it's day. Toning is something that I haven't read much about > in specific reference to Collodio-Chloride POP. I've just read that it uses > the same toning procedures as Albumen. I would like as black and neutral of > a tone as I can achieve. Most of the examples of Collodio-Chloride that > I've seen have that characteristic but I'm unsure if it is the raw > process's inherent tonal characteristic or if it is from toning. The Reilly > book references Thiocyanate toners as most common with Collodion-based salt > formulas. As I understand, Gold-Chloride/ Sodium Thiocyanate toners produce > neutral blacks. If that is the key then the Gold-Chloride is going to be > the most expensive component of the whole process. > > Let me know your thoughts. > > Best, > Francesco From fdfragomeni at gmail.com Thu May 31 13:40:06 2012 From: fdfragomeni at gmail.com (Francesco Fragomeni) Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 06:40:06 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Collodion POP/ Collodio-Chloride/ Collodion Aristotype Paper - Instructions, Books, Resources? In-Reply-To: <4FC76E2D.5070501@northwestel.net> References: <4FC4F063.5040706@comcast.net> <4FC64762.4070401@northwestel.net> <4FC76E2D.5070501@northwestel.net> Message-ID: Clarence, Thanks for the thoughts on toning. I'll use those baselines as I'm working with it and getting a feel. As to the Strontium, it does seem that the choice of that particular chloride was for the effect of color. Pretty much everyone I've spoken to with any insight into the process and historical formula have echoed that but I haven't heard back from Mark yet on the topic. Collodio-Chloride is already established to be so beautiful that I probably won't mess with the formula at this point. If Strontium Chloride were more difficult to get a hold of or expensive then maybe it would be work experimenting with substitutes, specifically Sodium Chloride, but seeing as it is available and cheap I just wont worry about it. As for substituting collodion for gelatin in an developing out formula, you make a really good point that I'd overlooked. The role of the physical characteristics of gelatin that play into controlling the growth of silver halide when the gelatin is sensitized. Surely collodion won't behave in the same way and while it may be possible to do it probably won't be as simple as just plugging in collodion and changing nothing else. It is with that that I probably will just bypass experimenting with the substitute until I have the time to play around. Collodion would have been a bit easier for me to work with but I think I can make gelatin work. Thanks for your help with this! Best, Francesco On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 6:12 AM, Clarence Rhymer wrote: > Hello Francesco, > > I have toned my prints in Gold/Borax, Gold/Bicarbonate and Gold/Ammonium > Thiocyanate. Yes, Gold is expensive, but one doesn't use all that much per > print. IIRC the Thiocyanate was more black/neutral, but that was not my > goal, so I can't say for sure. Remember, like wet-plate, these processes > are done almost completely by inspection. It is a lot like "cooking with > your mother". One adjusts the process until it looks right. You should > tone for between 2-10 minutes. Any faster (more aggressive toner) and it > does not tone well. If it takes more than 10 minutes you need to > replenish. Since in POP one exposes by inspection and tones by inspection > the results are rarely the same twice, but with experience one can achieve > the desired result for that negative. > > As to which chloride to use (calcium, lithium, strontium, etc.) I believe > it was claimed in the old literature that they resulted in different > coloured prints. I don't recall seeing Sodium Chloride used. Mark would be > able to give you a quick answer to that one. Strontium Chloride is easily > available and not expensive, so I have never tried anything else. I have > used both Sodium and Ammonium Chloride for albumen prints. > > As to substituting Collodion for Gelatin in an developing out formula, I > would be surprised if this were achievable by plugging it into the formula. > The former is made in Ether/Ethanol the latter in water. It is the > controlled growth of the Silver Halide crystal in gelatin that gives the > possibility of a developing out product that is exposed dry. Having said > that, there were collodion dry-plates produced for a time and even colour > sensitized collodion plates (bromide IIRC) used until the early part of the > 20th century. > > Cheers, > Clarence > > > On 30/05/2012 12:05 PM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > >> Clarence, >> >> One more question, do you tone your Collodio-Chloride POP prints? If I >> tone, I imagine I'd tone in a Gold Chloride/ Sodium Thiocyanate toner as >> was common in it's day. Toning is something that I haven't read much about >> in specific reference to Collodio-Chloride POP. I've just read that it >> uses >> the same toning procedures as Albumen. I would like as black and neutral >> of >> a tone as I can achieve. Most of the examples of Collodio-Chloride that >> I've seen have that characteristic but I'm unsure if it is the raw >> process's inherent tonal characteristic or if it is from toning. The >> Reilly >> book references Thiocyanate toners as most common with Collodion-based >> salt >> formulas. As I understand, Gold-Chloride/ Sodium Thiocyanate toners >> produce >> neutral blacks. If that is the key then the Gold-Chloride is going to be >> the most expensive component of the whole process. >> >> Let me know your thoughts. >> >> Best, >> Francesco >> > ______________________________**_________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/**listinfo > From crhymer at northwestel.net Thu May 31 13:41:35 2012 From: crhymer at northwestel.net (Clarence Rhymer) Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 07:41:35 -0600 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Collodio-Chloride and Collodion-Based Silver-Chloride Processes: Strontium-Chloride vs Sodium Chloride? In-Reply-To: References: <4FC733CB.3020605@silvergrain.org> Message-ID: <4FC7750F.8010200@northwestel.net> Hello Francesco and Ryuji, I agree completely with Ryuji concerning POP vs. DOP and the pit-falls of old literature, but would like to note that there is *no wash *in making the Collodio-Chloride for POP. Whatever one adds, stays in the mix. I am not sure how one would wash it anyway. Collodion and water just don't mix. A very small amount of water is required, but not too much. Collodion USP is about 25% Ethanol, 71% Ether and 4% Nitrocellulose. If you use 95% Ethanol in your Collodio-Chloride formula, you can figure out about how much water there will be in the final mix (some is used to dissolve the other ingredients). I have no idea about the using Amidol, but assuming you can make the product at all, why not test it with one of the more common developers. Amidol is used with with Kodak Azo and Lodima to achieve a special look/workflow. There is no guarantee that it will give the same result with another silver-gelatin emulsion even if it is similar in speed, etc. to Azo/Lodima, let alone a Collodion based one. Fancecso, I am unclear as to why you want a developing-out speed contact paper? Cheers, Clarence On 31/05/2012 7:07 AM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > Ryuji, > > Thanks for your thoughts. You're words are right in line with my > assumptions. I'm no chemist but I have a basic understanding of what occurs > when making these types of emulsions and while various different salts may > have cause minor differences, I would assume that they are just that, > minor. From my understanding, when an emulsion of this type is sensitized > the NaCL and AgNO3 molecules exchange to produce silver-chloride (AgCl, the > sensitive agent) and a non-sensitive byproduct that is typically discarded > in the wash (sodium-nitrate, NaNO3). The only thing I can think of is that > the Strontium-Chloride exchanges with Silver-Nitrate to produce > Strontium-Nitrate which may lend itself to some specific color, perhaps a > more prominent red that makes toning changes more evident. This is in line > will what I've read, that Strontium lent a color that made toning easier to > see. I'm still not sure about the alcohol solubility thing. > > -Francesco > > > On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 2:03 AM, Ryuji Suzuki wrote: > >> I don't have experience with collodion process but in silver gelatin >> process, the counter ions in the halide jet don't matter, as long as they >> are alkaline metal or alkali earth metal ions, impurities are well >> controlled, and the molar concentrations are adjusted. Those cations are >> just wasted without participating in any reaction that forms silver halide >> crystals. If solubility in alcohol is a factor, that may be one thing, but >> then what alcohol concentration are you talking about? In silver gelatin, >> sodium, potassium, and sometimes ammonium ions are used. Ammonium ions have >> different effects on silver halide crystals in a pH-dependent manner, but >> Na and K are largely irrelevant (in most cases, they are removed from the >> emulsion before chemical sensitization phase). >> >> Emulsions that are used for printing out processes are very different from >> emulsions for developed out processes. Don't underestimate that difference. >> >> I also would not put too much emphasis on stuff written in old literature, >> unless you can validate the statement with modern science. Systematic >> research of how emulsion crystals are formed and what factors have >> influence, etc., had to wait for sensitive instrumental amplifiers, >> electron microscopes, and various laboratory equipment in the 20th century. >> If certain issues or terminology disappeared in later literature, it might >> be because the earlier debate became irrelevant under the light of new >> science. THere are countless examples like that. >> >> -- >> Ryuji Suzuki >> "When you're finished changing, you're finished." (Benjamin Franklin) >> ______________________________**_________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/**listinfo >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/listinfo > From fdfragomeni at gmail.com Thu May 31 13:57:56 2012 From: fdfragomeni at gmail.com (Francesco Fragomeni) Date: Thu, 31 May 2012 06:57:56 -0700 Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Collodio-Chloride and Collodion-Based Silver-Chloride Processes: Strontium-Chloride vs Sodium Chloride? In-Reply-To: <4FC7750F.8010200@northwestel.net> References: <4FC733CB.3020605@silvergrain.org> <4FC7750F.8010200@northwestel.net> Message-ID: Yes, you guys are right.Thats why I'm pretty much setting aside thinking of collodion as a viable substitute for gelatin in a developing out formula. To answer you're question, this all started out of curiosity regarding making a personal Silver-Chloride replacement for Azo. I'm interested in longevity and being free from depending on a manufacturer for a material. Azo has been gone for a while now and while Lodima is almost a perfect replacement for Azo, I'm interested in something I can make and therefore not have to worry about getting from somewhere else. Azo was a very simple silver-chloride formula, hence why it was so easy to adapt and produce it an extraordinary wide variety of offerings. It was the longest and most varied run of photographic paper in history I believe. It was also just a basic Silver-Chloride formula made with high quality materials and under excellent control. Replicating it very closely in a hand made emulsion has been achieved without much strain by several people including Denise Ross, Mark Osterman, and Ron Mowrey who's formula I am using. Ron's formula produces a paper ridiculously similar to Azo in appearance and in its curves. I'm interested in developing-out formula simply because I prefer to work in that method and it is what I'm used to. The workflow with developing-out is just more my speed and I want to contact print in silver-chloride. It basically just matches all the factors I'm looking for in aesthetics as well as workflow. If I can't get the gelatin formula down consistently, I'm sure Collodio-Chloride POP won't be a problem and at that point I won't have any quarrel with adapting my workflow. -Francesco On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 6:41 AM, Clarence Rhymer wrote: > Hello Francesco and Ryuji, > > I agree completely with Ryuji concerning POP vs. DOP and the pit-falls of > old literature, but would like to note that there is *no wash *in making > the Collodio-Chloride for POP. Whatever one adds, stays in the mix. I am > not sure how one would wash it anyway. Collodion and water just don't mix. > A very small amount of water is required, but not too much. Collodion USP > is about 25% Ethanol, 71% Ether and 4% Nitrocellulose. If you use 95% > Ethanol in your Collodio-Chloride formula, you can figure out about how > much water there will be in the final mix (some is used to dissolve the > other ingredients). > > I have no idea about the using Amidol, but assuming you can make the > product at all, why not test it with one of the more common developers. > Amidol is used with with Kodak Azo and Lodima to achieve a special > look/workflow. There is no guarantee that it will give the same result > with another silver-gelatin emulsion even if it is similar in speed, etc. > to Azo/Lodima, let alone a Collodion based one. > > Fancecso, I am unclear as to why you want a developing-out speed contact > paper? > > Cheers, > Clarence > > > > > On 31/05/2012 7:07 AM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > >> Ryuji, >> >> Thanks for your thoughts. You're words are right in line with my >> assumptions. I'm no chemist but I have a basic understanding of what >> occurs >> when making these types of emulsions and while various different salts may >> have cause minor differences, I would assume that they are just that, >> minor. From my understanding, when an emulsion of this type is sensitized >> the NaCL and AgNO3 molecules exchange to produce silver-chloride (AgCl, >> the >> sensitive agent) and a non-sensitive byproduct that is typically discarded >> in the wash (sodium-nitrate, NaNO3). The only thing I can think of is that >> the Strontium-Chloride exchanges with Silver-Nitrate to produce >> Strontium-Nitrate which may lend itself to some specific color, perhaps a >> more prominent red that makes toning changes more evident. This is in line >> will what I've read, that Strontium lent a color that made toning easier >> to >> see. I'm still not sure about the alcohol solubility thing. >> >> -Francesco >> >> >> On Thu, May 31, 2012 at 2:03 AM, Ryuji Suzuki wrote: >> >> I don't have experience with collodion process but in silver gelatin >>> process, the counter ions in the halide jet don't matter, as long as they >>> are alkaline metal or alkali earth metal ions, impurities are well >>> controlled, and the molar concentrations are adjusted. Those cations are >>> just wasted without participating in any reaction that forms silver >>> halide >>> crystals. If solubility in alcohol is a factor, that may be one thing, >>> but >>> then what alcohol concentration are you talking about? In silver gelatin, >>> sodium, potassium, and sometimes ammonium ions are used. Ammonium ions >>> have >>> different effects on silver halide crystals in a pH-dependent manner, but >>> Na and K are largely irrelevant (in most cases, they are removed from the >>> emulsion before chemical sensitization phase). >>> >>> Emulsions that are used for printing out processes are very different >>> from >>> emulsions for developed out processes. Don't underestimate that >>> difference. >>> >>> I also would not put too much emphasis on stuff written in old >>> literature, >>> unless you can validate the statement with modern science. Systematic >>> research of how emulsion crystals are formed and what factors have >>> influence, etc., had to wait for sensitive instrumental amplifiers, >>> electron microscopes, and various laboratory equipment in the 20th >>> century. >>> If certain issues or terminology disappeared in later literature, it >>> might >>> be because the earlier debate became irrelevant under the light of new >>> science. THere are countless examples like that. >>> >>> -- >>> Ryuji Suzuki >>> "When you're finished changing, you're finished." (Benjamin Franklin) >>> ______________________________****_________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/****listinfo >>> > >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/**listinfo >> >> ______________________________**_________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/**listinfo >