From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Wed May 1 03:46:24 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 03:46:24 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: DAS In-Reply-To: References: <516F6305.2030301@ieee.org>, ,,, ,,, ,,, ,,, ,,<452F7371-E6B1-48B5-B78F-7E2A3A861999@polychrome.nl>, ,,, ,,, ,,, ,,<3B139E48-8E25-4083-88ED-E428C552E573@polychrome.nl>, ,,, , , , , , , , , Message-ID: Kees, Thanks for the extra work, however I can not get to the website. I did more reading on the two APUG threads and I am coming to a conclusion that what I am seeing is a known and reported property of the carbon printing, known as loss of highlight. I think it is more pronounced with DAS, then with dichromate. Looking at my test strips I would conclude that my dichromate strip is slightly fogged, as the dichromate would perhaps be always somewhat fogged and that's why there is more gradual steps. Also the deeper you print (more penetration of the emulsion) the less pronounced the effect, so I am trying less DAS in the sensitizer. I made some glop with less pigment and it showed more gradual progression as expected, but it is really because of the first step has lower pigment and so the lower density. However this kind of print would require DMAX of the negative to be above 3, not practical with my setup. That brings me to the other observations that I made by reading the APUG threads. The original ultrastable printing was done with a imagesetter negatives, actually with DMAX at 3 and digital in nature. The final image was also made of 4 LOW density prints (CMYK). I can see how nice low density prints could easily be made with DAS sensitizer. The loss of highlight detail would also be much less visible as 4 different prints would be superimposed resulting in a much smoother progression of tones. I have tried eliminating all the additives and changing pigment sources and all the time I see this loss of highlight detail, kind of pronounced once you get to the full print density. I am really waiting to see your test strips, to see if you could get full print density in one pass. Marek > From: workshops at polychrome.nl > Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 10:49:42 +0200 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: DAS > > Hi Marek, > > I did a quick step tablet test with the group buy DAS. I don't see any of this highlight clipping you are observing. > > http://polychrome.nl/techlog/apug-group-buy-das > > Kees > > > > On 27 apr. 2013, at 03:39, Marek Matusz wrote: > > > Kees DAs was added to the glop at 6% basis dry gelatin I am including scans of my test prints and a perfectly normal dichromate sensitized tissue with typical nice gradation of tones. I have done a 3 minute and 6 minute exposure of DAS sensitized tissue and you can see the expected density shift, but the effect is still there. I am almost thinking it is some kind of side reaction with some chemical that is in my glop mixture. I am making just sugar/gelatin/pigment DAS tissue. ANy ideas of how to go next (less pigment/DAS?). To that effect I flashed the tissue and it seems to have done the trick. My flash was a bit too long (at 1sec), because it fogged the print too much, but it definitely gave me more gradual tone gradation, actually the contrast is way too low as it would requitr negative of logD of over 3https://plus.google.com/photos/105732508998271877151/albums/5871332081567167153?authkey=CLvJ1J76nZjjhQE Marek > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From workshops at polychrome.nl Wed May 1 07:57:21 2013 From: workshops at polychrome.nl (Kees Brandenburg) Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 09:57:21 +0200 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: DAS In-Reply-To: References: <516F6305.2030301@ieee.org>, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , <452F7371-E6B1-48B5-B78F-7E2A3A861999@polychrome.nl>, , , , , , , , , , , , <3B139E48-8E25-4083-88ED-E428C552E573@polychrome.nl>, , , , , , , , , , , , Message-ID: <9564906F-A411-4C36-8F99-64CB4C4E8A40@polychrome.nl> Hi Marek, The webpage is accessible from here, it might have been a temporary problem. Let me know if you can't. I'll send you the scan off list. http://polychrome.nl/techlog/apug-group-buy-das You might try to do a test with an inkjet printed steptablet. Due to the ink dithering it acts like a negative with a stochastic halftone dot. However in my tests with a normal steptablet there is no visible cutoff like you observed. (With digital negatives excellent prints can be made because of the stochastic distributed ink dot these negatives have. Printing in layers is indeed very nice. Printing higher densities is possible by using thin higher pigmented tissue. The self masking of the sensitizer is an important variable with DAS, that still surprizes me sometimes as an unexpected actor on the scene.... This means that longer exposure are sometimes contraproductive. Kees On 1 mei 2013, at 05:46, Marek Matusz wrote: > Kees, Thanks for the extra work, however I can not get to the website. I did more reading on the two APUG threads and I am coming to a conclusion that what I am seeing is a known and reported property of the carbon printing, known as loss of highlight. I think it is more pronounced with DAS, then with dichromate. Looking at my test strips I would conclude that my dichromate strip is slightly fogged, as the dichromate would perhaps be always somewhat fogged and that's why there is more gradual steps. Also the deeper you print (more penetration of the emulsion) the less pronounced the effect, so I am trying less DAS in the sensitizer. I made some glop with less pigment and it showed more gradual progression as expected, but it is really because of the first step has lower pigment and so the lower density. However this kind of print would require DMAX of the negative to be above 3, not practical with my setup. That brings me to the other observations that I made by reading the APUG threads. The original ultrastable printing was done with a imagesetter negatives, actually with DMAX at 3 and digital in nature. The final image was also made of 4 LOW density prints (CMYK). I can see how nice low density prints could easily be made with DAS sensitizer. The loss of highlight detail would also be much less visible as 4 different prints would be superimposed resulting in a much smoother progression of tones. I have tried eliminating all the additives and changing pigment sources and all the time I see this loss of highlight detail, kind of pronounced once you get to the full print density. I am really waiting to see your test strips, to see if you could get full print density in one pass. Marek From glsmyth at yahoo.com Thu May 2 10:27:34 2013 From: glsmyth at yahoo.com (George L Smyth) Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 03:27:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: 7 Month 25 Day Solargraph Exposure In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1367490454.10305.YahooMailClassic@web164004.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Francesco?- Very cool, I don't know that I have seen a solargraph with those particular colors before. Cheers - george -------------------------------------- Bromoil: http://GeorgeSmyth.com Handmade Photographic Images: http://www.GLSmyth.com Blog: http://GLSmyth.wordpress.com --- On Sun, 4/28/13, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > From: Francesco Fragomeni > Subject: [Alt-photo] 7 Month 25 Day Solargraph Exposure > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" > Date: Sunday, April 28, 2013, 1:33 PM > Thought some here might find this > interesting. I'd read some things about > solargraphy a while back and late last year I decided to > give it a try. It > was successful so now I plan to use it for a project that I > have in mind. > Exciting stuff. > > Here is a link to my newly finished solargraph. For those > who don't know, > this is a type of pinhole photograph created via an > ultra-long exposure. In > this case, the exposure lasted 7 months and 25 days from > September 2, 2012 > to April 27, 2013. The camera survived and recorded through > Hurricane > Sandy, which despite causing tens of billions of dollars in > damage across > New York state, lasted for such a short duration of the > exposure that > virtually no sign of the storm can be seen. What's > remarkable is that a > printed-out color negative is produced by B&W silver-gel > paper. As I > understand it, the bromide in the paper under a change due > to the extreme > over-exposure which produces a color image. > > http://www.francescofragomeni.com/solargraphy/ > > Francesco Fragomeni > www.francescofragomeni.com > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | > lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > From sbilici at gmail.com Fri May 3 12:07:26 2013 From: sbilici at gmail.com (Serdar Bilici) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 15:07:26 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification Message-ID: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> This happens to be my first post to this group so hello everyone, I have been working with alt. processes for over a year now. Recently, I tried different acids for neutralizing alkaline buffers in certain papers and I believe I have found an alternative acid for this purpose. I have tested sulfamic acid for paper acidification and it turns out SA is such a good performer. I have already posted the details and some samples on APUG. So I would share the link with you. http://www.apug.org/forums/forum42/118153-sulfamic-acid-paper-acidification. html I would be pleased to hear your opinions, suggestions for optimizing the procedure. I did some test using new cyanotype, argyrotype and Loris did some testing with ziatype and argyrotype. If you happen to test it with other papers or processes I am quite interested to hear your results. And I should agains thank Loris Medici for all his support and guidance during this process. Regards Serdar Bilici From mail at loris.medici.name Fri May 3 14:32:37 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 17:32:37 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] APUG Message-ID: Hi all, First of all I want to thank Serdar very much for his great idea and the hard work for testing and putting it all together. It's one of the best tricks I've ever been made aware of since a long time... Few notes: - Very little SA goes a long way, the capacity of a (say...) 3l bath is around 45 full 22x30" 140lb paper (by Serdar's definition), therefore it's both cost effective and (presumably) environmentally less From mail at loris.medici.name Fri May 3 14:44:31 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 17:44:31 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification In-Reply-To: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi all, First of all I want to thank Serdar very much for his great (and elegant) idea + the hard work he endured in testing and putting it all together. It's one of the best tricks I've ever been made aware of since a long time... Few notes: - Very little SA goes a long way, the capacity of a (say...) 3l bath is around 45 full 22x30" 140lb paper (by Serdar's definition within safety limits), therefore it's both cost effective and generates less waste. (Presumably more environment friendly???) - IT WORKS FLAWLESSLY! To me, it's hands down the best acidification method I've ever tried. I've tried oxalic acid, citric acid and hydrochloric acid before; this one's the method that gave the best results. Try it for yourself. Thank you again Serdar, Regards, Loris. P.S. Sorry for the incomplete earlier post. 2013/5/3 Serdar Bilici > This happens to be my first post to this group so hello everyone, > > I have been working with alt. processes for over a year now. Recently, I > tried different acids for neutralizing alkaline buffers in certain papers > and I believe I have found an alternative acid for this purpose. > > I have tested sulfamic acid for paper acidification and it turns out SA is > such a good performer. I have already posted the details and some samples > on > APUG. So I would share the link with you. > > > http://www.apug.org/forums/forum42/118153-sulfamic-acid-paper-acidification. > html > > I would be pleased to hear your opinions, suggestions for optimizing the > procedure. > I did some test using new cyanotype, argyrotype and Loris did some testing > with ziatype and argyrotype. > If you happen to test it with other papers or processes I am quite > interested to hear your results. > > And I should agains thank Loris Medici for all his support and guidance > during this process. > > Regards > Serdar Bilici > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > From fdfragomeni at gmail.com Fri May 3 15:06:02 2013 From: fdfragomeni at gmail.com (Francesco Fragomeni) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 08:06:02 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: 7 Month 25 Day Solargraph Exposure In-Reply-To: <1367490454.10305.YahooMailClassic@web164004.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1367490454.10305.YahooMailClassic@web164004.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi George, The actual color negative was quite faint but after scanning and then inverting and applying basic auto contrast and auto color in Photoshop, that's what was produced. I was quite surprised with the level of color accuracy. -Francesco On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 3:27 AM, George L Smyth wrote: > Francesco - > > Very cool, I don't know that I have seen a solargraph with those > particular colors before. > > Cheers - > > george > > -------------------------------------- > Bromoil: http://GeorgeSmyth.com > Handmade Photographic Images: http://www.GLSmyth.com > Blog: http://GLSmyth.wordpress.com > > > --- On Sun, 4/28/13, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > > > From: Francesco Fragomeni > > Subject: [Alt-photo] 7 Month 25 Day Solargraph Exposure > > To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" < > alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> > > Date: Sunday, April 28, 2013, 1:33 PM > > Thought some here might find this > > interesting. I'd read some things about > > solargraphy a while back and late last year I decided to > > give it a try. It > > was successful so now I plan to use it for a project that I > > have in mind. > > Exciting stuff. > > > > Here is a link to my newly finished solargraph. For those > > who don't know, > > this is a type of pinhole photograph created via an > > ultra-long exposure. In > > this case, the exposure lasted 7 months and 25 days from > > September 2, 2012 > > to April 27, 2013. The camera survived and recorded through > > Hurricane > > Sandy, which despite causing tens of billions of dollars in > > damage across > > New York state, lasted for such a short duration of the > > exposure that > > virtually no sign of the storm can be seen. What's > > remarkable is that a > > printed-out color negative is produced by B&W silver-gel > > paper. As I > > understand it, the bromide in the paper under a change due > > to the extreme > > over-exposure which produces a color image. > > > > http://www.francescofragomeni.com/solargraphy/ > > > > Francesco Fragomeni > > www.francescofragomeni.com > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | > > lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > From dickburk at ix.netcom.com Fri May 3 16:42:07 2013 From: dickburk at ix.netcom.com (Richard Knoppow) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 09:42:07 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: DAS References: <516F6305.2030301@ieee.org> <452F7371-E6B1-48B5-B78F-7E2A3A861999@polychrome.nl> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kees Brandenburg" To: Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 2:31 AM Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: DAS This is a test since I have not received any messages from this list for a couple of weeks. -- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles WB6KBL dickburk at ix.netcom.com From 1oldlens1 at ix.netcom.com Fri May 3 20:11:54 2013 From: 1oldlens1 at ix.netcom.com (Richard Knoppow) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 13:11:54 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: DAS References: <516F6305.2030301@ieee.org> Message-ID: <3CAF92A400BD4CC5AD5768B9C63A0EC4@VALUED20606295> Another test message to see if I am getting through. -- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles WB6KBL dickburk at ix.netcom.com From johnbrewerphotography at gmail.com Fri May 3 20:14:51 2013 From: johnbrewerphotography at gmail.com (John Brewer) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 21:14:51 +0100 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: DAS In-Reply-To: <3CAF92A400BD4CC5AD5768B9C63A0EC4@VALUED20606295> References: <516F6305.2030301@ieee.org> <3CAF92A400BD4CC5AD5768B9C63A0EC4@VALUED20606295> Message-ID: <3BC1899F-63F3-465F-8982-2DA7C1ACF9F7@gmail.com> I can see you! Sent from my iPhone On 3 May 2013, at 21:11, "Richard Knoppow" <1oldlens1 at ix.netcom.com> wrote: > Another test message to see if I am getting through. > > -- > Richard Knoppow > Los Angeles > WB6KBL > dickburk at ix.netcom.com > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From jefulton1 at comcast.net Fri May 3 20:17:00 2013 From: jefulton1 at comcast.net (Jack Fulton) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 13:17:00 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: DAS In-Reply-To: <3CAF92A400BD4CC5AD5768B9C63A0EC4@VALUED20606295> References: <516F6305.2030301@ieee.org> <3CAF92A400BD4CC5AD5768B9C63A0EC4@VALUED20606295> Message-ID: <8D54F9E7-70D8-45C7-84E6-0CC30611E6AB@comcast.net> You are certainly getting through to me Richard. Jack Fulton On May 3, 2013, at 1:11 PM, "Richard Knoppow" <1oldlens1 at ix.netcom.com> wrote: > Another test message to see if I am getting through. > > -- > Richard Knoppow > Los Angeles > WB6KBL > dickburk at ix.netcom.com > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From workshops at polychrome.nl Fri May 3 20:34:02 2013 From: workshops at polychrome.nl (Kees Brandenburg) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 22:34:02 +0200 Subject: [Alt-photo] Mail not coming through Message-ID: On 3 mei 2013, at 22:14, John Brewer wrote: > I can see you! No need to post when you do receive Richard's mail! Starting last week some US providers are blocking the (new) IP of the mailserver the list uses. Only earthlink, att and aol related adresses are affected. This does not does not mean your posts to the list don't come through. But as a result of the blocking the list receives to many bounced messages and temporary disabled sending posts to the affected address. The result is you don't receive mail from the list anymore. As I can see now about 30 e-mail addresses are affected. Our provider is contacting earthlink/att/aol to have these blocks removed, but this might take a few days. I You allways can check the archives for recent posts: http://lists.altphotolist.org/pipermail/alt-photo-process-list/ http://altphotolist.org If the blocking is over I will reset all affected subscriptions. Earthlink/att/aol use a blacklisting system to fight spam - we seem to be a false positive - and now have to prove our innocence. Sorry for this inconvenience. regards, Kees From ravene at gmail.com Fri May 3 21:20:03 2013 From: ravene at gmail.com (Ravene@gmail.com) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 14:20:03 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: 7 Month 25 Day Solargraph Exposure In-Reply-To: References: <1367490454.10305.YahooMailClassic@web164004.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5573FC55-C280-49F7-8F7E-A5657F7948FF@gmail.com> I''m curious... Was that photo paper or film? Also what kind? It seems similar to the changes that happen with lumen prints? On May 3, 2013, at 8:06 AM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > Hi George, > > The actual color negative was quite faint but after scanning and then > inverting and applying basic auto contrast and auto color in Photoshop, > that's what was produced. I was quite surprised with the level of color > accuracy. > > -Francesco > > > On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 3:27 AM, George L Smyth wrote: > >> Francesco - >> >> Very cool, I don't know that I have seen a solargraph with those >> particular colors before. >> >> Cheers - >> >> george >> >> -------------------------------------- >> Bromoil: http://GeorgeSmyth.com >> Handmade Photographic Images: http://www.GLSmyth.com >> Blog: http://GLSmyth.wordpress.com >> >> >> --- On Sun, 4/28/13, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: >> >>> From: Francesco Fragomeni >>> Subject: [Alt-photo] 7 Month 25 Day Solargraph Exposure >>> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" < >> alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> >>> Date: Sunday, April 28, 2013, 1:33 PM >>> Thought some here might find this >>> interesting. I'd read some things about >>> solargraphy a while back and late last year I decided to >>> give it a try. It >>> was successful so now I plan to use it for a project that I >>> have in mind. >>> Exciting stuff. >>> >>> Here is a link to my newly finished solargraph. For those >>> who don't know, >>> this is a type of pinhole photograph created via an >>> ultra-long exposure. In >>> this case, the exposure lasted 7 months and 25 days from >>> September 2, 2012 >>> to April 27, 2013. The camera survived and recorded through >>> Hurricane >>> Sandy, which despite causing tens of billions of dollars in >>> damage across >>> New York state, lasted for such a short duration of the >>> exposure that >>> virtually no sign of the storm can be seen. What's >>> remarkable is that a >>> printed-out color negative is produced by B&W silver-gel >>> paper. As I >>> understand it, the bromide in the paper under a change due >>> to the extreme >>> over-exposure which produces a color image. >>> >>> http://www.francescofragomeni.com/solargraphy/ >>> >>> Francesco Fragomeni >>> www.francescofragomeni.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | >>> lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From fdfragomeni at gmail.com Fri May 3 21:34:32 2013 From: fdfragomeni at gmail.com (Francesco Fragomeni) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 14:34:32 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: 7 Month 25 Day Solargraph Exposure In-Reply-To: <5573FC55-C280-49F7-8F7E-A5657F7948FF@gmail.com> References: <1367490454.10305.YahooMailClassic@web164004.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5573FC55-C280-49F7-8F7E-A5657F7948FF@gmail.com> Message-ID: It was made with photo-paper. I'm actually unsure what paper it was exactly as I pulled it out of a mixed box of old loose paper scrap that I'd collected so it could be anything. I wasn't convinced that it would actually work so I didn't spend much time thinking about it. That's a shame now as I'd like to know exactly what paper it was too. I can tell you that it was RC but that's about it. -Francesco On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Ravene at gmail.com wrote: > I''m curious... Was that photo paper or film? Also what kind? > > It seems similar to the changes that happen with lumen prints? > > > > > > On May 3, 2013, at 8:06 AM, Francesco Fragomeni > wrote: > > > Hi George, > > > > The actual color negative was quite faint but after scanning and then > > inverting and applying basic auto contrast and auto color in Photoshop, > > that's what was produced. I was quite surprised with the level of color > > accuracy. > > > > -Francesco > > > > > > On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 3:27 AM, George L Smyth > wrote: > > > >> Francesco - > >> > >> Very cool, I don't know that I have seen a solargraph with those > >> particular colors before. > >> > >> Cheers - > >> > >> george > >> > >> -------------------------------------- > >> Bromoil: http://GeorgeSmyth.com > >> Handmade Photographic Images: http://www.GLSmyth.com > >> Blog: http://GLSmyth.wordpress.com > >> > >> > >> --- On Sun, 4/28/13, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > >> > >>> From: Francesco Fragomeni > >>> Subject: [Alt-photo] 7 Month 25 Day Solargraph Exposure > >>> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" < > >> alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> > >>> Date: Sunday, April 28, 2013, 1:33 PM > >>> Thought some here might find this > >>> interesting. I'd read some things about > >>> solargraphy a while back and late last year I decided to > >>> give it a try. It > >>> was successful so now I plan to use it for a project that I > >>> have in mind. > >>> Exciting stuff. > >>> > >>> Here is a link to my newly finished solargraph. For those > >>> who don't know, > >>> this is a type of pinhole photograph created via an > >>> ultra-long exposure. In > >>> this case, the exposure lasted 7 months and 25 days from > >>> September 2, 2012 > >>> to April 27, 2013. The camera survived and recorded through > >>> Hurricane > >>> Sandy, which despite causing tens of billions of dollars in > >>> damage across > >>> New York state, lasted for such a short duration of the > >>> exposure that > >>> virtually no sign of the storm can be seen. What's > >>> remarkable is that a > >>> printed-out color negative is produced by B&W silver-gel > >>> paper. As I > >>> understand it, the bromide in the paper under a change due > >>> to the extreme > >>> over-exposure which produces a color image. > >>> > >>> http://www.francescofragomeni.com/solargraphy/ > >>> > >>> Francesco Fragomeni > >>> www.francescofragomeni.com > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Alt-photo-process-list | > >>> lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > From jefulton1 at comcast.net Fri May 3 23:07:13 2013 From: jefulton1 at comcast.net (Jack Fulton) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 16:07:13 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: 7 Month 25 Day Solargraph Exposure In-Reply-To: References: <1367490454.10305.YahooMailClassic@web164004.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5573FC55-C280-49F7-8F7E-A5657F7948FF@gmail.com> Message-ID: Indeed, the whole thing is a curious phenomenon and is linked to the Lumen prints I'd guess. The colors are what surprised me. So, if the exposure was for 7 months, the entrance hole must've been extremely small. Do you know how you made it or what the size was? Jack On May 3, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > It was made with photo-paper. I'm actually unsure what paper it was exactly > as I pulled it out of a mixed box of old loose paper scrap that I'd > collected so it could be anything. I wasn't convinced that it would > actually work so I didn't spend much time thinking about it. That's a shame > now as I'd like to know exactly what paper it was too. I can tell you that > it was RC but that's about it. > > -Francesco > > > On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Ravene at gmail.com wrote: > >> I''m curious... Was that photo paper or film? Also what kind? >> >> It seems similar to the changes that happen with lumen prints? >> >> >> >> >> >> On May 3, 2013, at 8:06 AM, Francesco Fragomeni >> wrote: >> >>> Hi George, >>> >>> The actual color negative was quite faint but after scanning and then >>> inverting and applying basic auto contrast and auto color in Photoshop, >>> that's what was produced. I was quite surprised with the level of color >>> accuracy. >>> >>> -Francesco >>> >>> >>> On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 3:27 AM, George L Smyth >> wrote: >>> >>>> Francesco - >>>> >>>> Very cool, I don't know that I have seen a solargraph with those >>>> particular colors before. >>>> >>>> Cheers - >>>> >>>> george >>>> >>>> -------------------------------------- >>>> Bromoil: http://GeorgeSmyth.com >>>> Handmade Photographic Images: http://www.GLSmyth.com >>>> Blog: http://GLSmyth.wordpress.com >>>> >>>> >>>> --- On Sun, 4/28/13, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: >>>> >>>>> From: Francesco Fragomeni >>>>> Subject: [Alt-photo] 7 Month 25 Day Solargraph Exposure >>>>> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" < >>>> alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> >>>>> Date: Sunday, April 28, 2013, 1:33 PM >>>>> Thought some here might find this >>>>> interesting. I'd read some things about >>>>> solargraphy a while back and late last year I decided to >>>>> give it a try. It >>>>> was successful so now I plan to use it for a project that I >>>>> have in mind. >>>>> Exciting stuff. >>>>> >>>>> Here is a link to my newly finished solargraph. For those >>>>> who don't know, >>>>> this is a type of pinhole photograph created via an >>>>> ultra-long exposure. In >>>>> this case, the exposure lasted 7 months and 25 days from >>>>> September 2, 2012 >>>>> to April 27, 2013. The camera survived and recorded through >>>>> Hurricane >>>>> Sandy, which despite causing tens of billions of dollars in >>>>> damage across >>>>> New York state, lasted for such a short duration of the >>>>> exposure that >>>>> virtually no sign of the storm can be seen. What's >>>>> remarkable is that a >>>>> printed-out color negative is produced by B&W silver-gel >>>>> paper. As I >>>>> understand it, the bromide in the paper under a change due >>>>> to the extreme >>>>> over-exposure which produces a color image. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.francescofragomeni.com/solargraphy/ >>>>> >>>>> Francesco Fragomeni >>>>> www.francescofragomeni.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | >>>>> lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From fdfragomeni at gmail.com Fri May 3 23:20:06 2013 From: fdfragomeni at gmail.com (Francesco Fragomeni) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 16:20:06 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: 7 Month 25 Day Solargraph Exposure In-Reply-To: References: <1367490454.10305.YahooMailClassic@web164004.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5573FC55-C280-49F7-8F7E-A5657F7948FF@gmail.com> Message-ID: Just a standard pinhole poked with the tip of a pin into a piece of aluminum weather proofing tape. No attempt was made to make the hole any smaller then it would be for a normal pinhole as the diameter of the hole and subsequent exposure measurements don't matter with solargraph exposures. The phenomenon occurs because of drastic overexposure. You just set the thing up and wait however long you want to wait. The beauty of this is that there is essentially no such thing as a wrong exposure. -Francesco On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 4:07 PM, Jack Fulton wrote: > Indeed, the whole thing is a curious phenomenon and is linked to the Lumen > prints I'd guess. > The colors are what surprised me. So, if the exposure was for 7 months, > the entrance hole > must've been extremely small. Do you know how you made it or what the size > was? > Jack > > > > > On May 3, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Francesco Fragomeni > wrote: > > > It was made with photo-paper. I'm actually unsure what paper it was > exactly > > as I pulled it out of a mixed box of old loose paper scrap that I'd > > collected so it could be anything. I wasn't convinced that it would > > actually work so I didn't spend much time thinking about it. That's a > shame > > now as I'd like to know exactly what paper it was too. I can tell you > that > > it was RC but that's about it. > > > > -Francesco > > > > > > On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Ravene at gmail.com > wrote: > > > >> I''m curious... Was that photo paper or film? Also what kind? > >> > >> It seems similar to the changes that happen with lumen prints? > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On May 3, 2013, at 8:06 AM, Francesco Fragomeni > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Hi George, > >>> > >>> The actual color negative was quite faint but after scanning and then > >>> inverting and applying basic auto contrast and auto color in Photoshop, > >>> that's what was produced. I was quite surprised with the level of color > >>> accuracy. > >>> > >>> -Francesco > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 3:27 AM, George L Smyth > >> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Francesco - > >>>> > >>>> Very cool, I don't know that I have seen a solargraph with those > >>>> particular colors before. > >>>> > >>>> Cheers - > >>>> > >>>> george > >>>> > >>>> -------------------------------------- > >>>> Bromoil: http://GeorgeSmyth.com > >>>> Handmade Photographic Images: http://www.GLSmyth.com > >>>> Blog: http://GLSmyth.wordpress.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> --- On Sun, 4/28/13, Francesco Fragomeni > wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> From: Francesco Fragomeni > >>>>> Subject: [Alt-photo] 7 Month 25 Day Solargraph Exposure > >>>>> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" < > >>>> alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> > >>>>> Date: Sunday, April 28, 2013, 1:33 PM > >>>>> Thought some here might find this > >>>>> interesting. I'd read some things about > >>>>> solargraphy a while back and late last year I decided to > >>>>> give it a try. It > >>>>> was successful so now I plan to use it for a project that I > >>>>> have in mind. > >>>>> Exciting stuff. > >>>>> > >>>>> Here is a link to my newly finished solargraph. For those > >>>>> who don't know, > >>>>> this is a type of pinhole photograph created via an > >>>>> ultra-long exposure. In > >>>>> this case, the exposure lasted 7 months and 25 days from > >>>>> September 2, 2012 > >>>>> to April 27, 2013. The camera survived and recorded through > >>>>> Hurricane > >>>>> Sandy, which despite causing tens of billions of dollars in > >>>>> damage across > >>>>> New York state, lasted for such a short duration of the > >>>>> exposure that > >>>>> virtually no sign of the storm can be seen. What's > >>>>> remarkable is that a > >>>>> printed-out color negative is produced by B&W silver-gel > >>>>> paper. As I > >>>>> understand it, the bromide in the paper under a change due > >>>>> to the extreme > >>>>> over-exposure which produces a color image. > >>>>> > >>>>> http://www.francescofragomeni.com/solargraphy/ > >>>>> > >>>>> Francesco Fragomeni > >>>>> www.francescofragomeni.com > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | > >>>>> lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > From jefulton1 at comcast.net Fri May 3 23:40:37 2013 From: jefulton1 at comcast.net (Jack Fulton) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 16:40:37 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: 7 Month 25 Day Solargraph Exposure In-Reply-To: References: <1367490454.10305.YahooMailClassic@web164004.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5573FC55-C280-49F7-8F7E-A5657F7948FF@gmail.com> Message-ID: . . . . and, Francesco, did, at any time during this long exposure, di you look at it? Secondly, how did you finalize the process? Thanks Jack On May 3, 2013, at 4:20 PM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > Just a standard pinhole poked with the tip of a pin into a piece of > aluminum weather proofing tape. No attempt was made to make the hole any > smaller then it would be for a normal pinhole as the diameter of the hole > and subsequent exposure measurements don't matter with solargraph > exposures. The phenomenon occurs because of drastic overexposure. You just > set the thing up and wait however long you want to wait. The beauty of this > is that there is essentially no such thing as a wrong exposure. > > -Francesco > > > On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 4:07 PM, Jack Fulton wrote: > >> Indeed, the whole thing is a curious phenomenon and is linked to the Lumen >> prints I'd guess. >> The colors are what surprised me. So, if the exposure was for 7 months, >> the entrance hole >> must've been extremely small. Do you know how you made it or what the size >> was? >> Jack >> >> >> >> >> On May 3, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Francesco Fragomeni >> wrote: >> >>> It was made with photo-paper. I'm actually unsure what paper it was >> exactly >>> as I pulled it out of a mixed box of old loose paper scrap that I'd >>> collected so it could be anything. I wasn't convinced that it would >>> actually work so I didn't spend much time thinking about it. That's a >> shame >>> now as I'd like to know exactly what paper it was too. I can tell you >> that >>> it was RC but that's about it. >>> >>> -Francesco >>> >>> >>> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Ravene at gmail.com >> wrote: >>> >>>> I''m curious... Was that photo paper or film? Also what kind? >>>> >>>> It seems similar to the changes that happen with lumen prints? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On May 3, 2013, at 8:06 AM, Francesco Fragomeni >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi George, >>>>> >>>>> The actual color negative was quite faint but after scanning and then >>>>> inverting and applying basic auto contrast and auto color in Photoshop, >>>>> that's what was produced. I was quite surprised with the level of color >>>>> accuracy. >>>>> >>>>> -Francesco >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 3:27 AM, George L Smyth >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Francesco - >>>>>> >>>>>> Very cool, I don't know that I have seen a solargraph with those >>>>>> particular colors before. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers - >>>>>> >>>>>> george >>>>>> >>>>>> -------------------------------------- >>>>>> Bromoil: http://GeorgeSmyth.com >>>>>> Handmade Photographic Images: http://www.GLSmyth.com >>>>>> Blog: http://GLSmyth.wordpress.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> --- On Sun, 4/28/13, Francesco Fragomeni >> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> From: Francesco Fragomeni >>>>>>> Subject: [Alt-photo] 7 Month 25 Day Solargraph Exposure >>>>>>> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" < >>>>>> alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> >>>>>>> Date: Sunday, April 28, 2013, 1:33 PM >>>>>>> Thought some here might find this >>>>>>> interesting. I'd read some things about >>>>>>> solargraphy a while back and late last year I decided to >>>>>>> give it a try. It >>>>>>> was successful so now I plan to use it for a project that I >>>>>>> have in mind. >>>>>>> Exciting stuff. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Here is a link to my newly finished solargraph. For those >>>>>>> who don't know, >>>>>>> this is a type of pinhole photograph created via an >>>>>>> ultra-long exposure. In >>>>>>> this case, the exposure lasted 7 months and 25 days from >>>>>>> September 2, 2012 >>>>>>> to April 27, 2013. The camera survived and recorded through >>>>>>> Hurricane >>>>>>> Sandy, which despite causing tens of billions of dollars in >>>>>>> damage across >>>>>>> New York state, lasted for such a short duration of the >>>>>>> exposure that >>>>>>> virtually no sign of the storm can be seen. What's >>>>>>> remarkable is that a >>>>>>> printed-out color negative is produced by B&W silver-gel >>>>>>> paper. As I >>>>>>> understand it, the bromide in the paper under a change due >>>>>>> to the extreme >>>>>>> over-exposure which produces a color image. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.francescofragomeni.com/solargraphy/ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Francesco Fragomeni >>>>>>> www.francescofragomeni.com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | >>>>>>> lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From kakarott76 at hotmail.com Sat May 4 00:03:15 2013 From: kakarott76 at hotmail.com (Kurt Nagy) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 19:03:15 -0500 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: 7 Month 25 Day Solargraph Exposure In-Reply-To: References: <1367490454.10305.YahooMailClassic@web164004.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5573FC55-C280-49F7-8F7E-A5657F7948FF@gmail.com> Message-ID: With Solargraphy you essentially setup a pinhole camera in a location (usually facing the sun so you can record it's path) and the come get it after several months (upwards of 6+months). Opening up or checking your exposure will ruin the process much the same as it would just taking photo paper out of the package. Also the image can never really be fixed as it will bleach out the print. Exposure to further light will also degrade the image (even the scanner light) On May 3, 2013, at 6:40 PM, Jack Fulton wrote: > . . . . and, Francesco, did, at any time during this long exposure, di you look at it? > Secondly, how did you finalize the process? > Thanks > Jack > > > > > On May 3, 2013, at 4:20 PM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > >> Just a standard pinhole poked with the tip of a pin into a piece of >> aluminum weather proofing tape. No attempt was made to make the hole any >> smaller then it would be for a normal pinhole as the diameter of the hole >> and subsequent exposure measurements don't matter with solargraph >> exposures. The phenomenon occurs because of drastic overexposure. You just >> set the thing up and wait however long you want to wait. The beauty of this >> is that there is essentially no such thing as a wrong exposure. >> >> -Francesco >> >> >> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 4:07 PM, Jack Fulton wrote: >> >>> Indeed, the whole thing is a curious phenomenon and is linked to the Lumen >>> prints I'd guess. >>> The colors are what surprised me. So, if the exposure was for 7 months, >>> the entrance hole >>> must've been extremely small. Do you know how you made it or what the size >>> was? >>> Jack >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 3, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Francesco Fragomeni >>> wrote: >>> >>>> It was made with photo-paper. I'm actually unsure what paper it was >>> exactly >>>> as I pulled it out of a mixed box of old loose paper scrap that I'd >>>> collected so it could be anything. I wasn't convinced that it would >>>> actually work so I didn't spend much time thinking about it. That's a >>> shame >>>> now as I'd like to know exactly what paper it was too. I can tell you >>> that >>>> it was RC but that's about it. >>>> >>>> -Francesco >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Ravene at gmail.com >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I''m curious... Was that photo paper or film? Also what kind? >>>>> >>>>> It seems similar to the changes that happen with lumen prints? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 3, 2013, at 8:06 AM, Francesco Fragomeni >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi George, >>>>>> >>>>>> The actual color negative was quite faint but after scanning and then >>>>>> inverting and applying basic auto contrast and auto color in Photoshop, >>>>>> that's what was produced. I was quite surprised with the level of color >>>>>> accuracy. >>>>>> >>>>>> -Francesco >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 3:27 AM, George L Smyth >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Francesco - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Very cool, I don't know that I have seen a solargraph with those >>>>>>> particular colors before. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers - >>>>>>> >>>>>>> george >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -------------------------------------- >>>>>>> Bromoil: http://GeorgeSmyth.com >>>>>>> Handmade Photographic Images: http://www.GLSmyth.com >>>>>>> Blog: http://GLSmyth.wordpress.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- On Sun, 4/28/13, Francesco Fragomeni >>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From: Francesco Fragomeni >>>>>>>> Subject: [Alt-photo] 7 Month 25 Day Solargraph Exposure >>>>>>>> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" < >>>>>>> alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> >>>>>>>> Date: Sunday, April 28, 2013, 1:33 PM >>>>>>>> Thought some here might find this >>>>>>>> interesting. I'd read some things about >>>>>>>> solargraphy a while back and late last year I decided to >>>>>>>> give it a try. It >>>>>>>> was successful so now I plan to use it for a project that I >>>>>>>> have in mind. >>>>>>>> Exciting stuff. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Here is a link to my newly finished solargraph. For those >>>>>>>> who don't know, >>>>>>>> this is a type of pinhole photograph created via an >>>>>>>> ultra-long exposure. In >>>>>>>> this case, the exposure lasted 7 months and 25 days from >>>>>>>> September 2, 2012 >>>>>>>> to April 27, 2013. The camera survived and recorded through >>>>>>>> Hurricane >>>>>>>> Sandy, which despite causing tens of billions of dollars in >>>>>>>> damage across >>>>>>>> New York state, lasted for such a short duration of the >>>>>>>> exposure that >>>>>>>> virtually no sign of the storm can be seen. What's >>>>>>>> remarkable is that a >>>>>>>> printed-out color negative is produced by B&W silver-gel >>>>>>>> paper. As I >>>>>>>> understand it, the bromide in the paper under a change due >>>>>>>> to the extreme >>>>>>>> over-exposure which produces a color image. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://www.francescofragomeni.com/solargraphy/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Francesco Fragomeni >>>>>>>> www.francescofragomeni.com >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | >>>>>>>> lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > From fdfragomeni at gmail.com Sat May 4 00:16:30 2013 From: fdfragomeni at gmail.com (Francesco Fragomeni) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 17:16:30 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: 7 Month 25 Day Solargraph Exposure In-Reply-To: References: <1367490454.10305.YahooMailClassic@web164004.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5573FC55-C280-49F7-8F7E-A5657F7948FF@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jack, I'm unsure what you mean by "did I look at it?" Kurt explained it well. You just make pinhole and set it up somewhere for an extended period of time undisturbed. Once the exposure is complete (you decide this whenever you want) and the camera is retrieved, you take out the exposed paper (on which there will be a very faint printed out color negative image) and scan it (using no pre-scan). You cannot develop or fix the paper so the process is a genuine hybrid process requiring both analog and digital workflows to complete. Once scanned, you treat it like any other scanned image. As to how long the original will last, I found that a few hours passed with it in a light room before I could see any visible difference with the naked eye but I'm sure that a measurable difference could be found immediately after the scan. -Francesco On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 5:03 PM, Kurt Nagy wrote: > With Solargraphy you essentially setup a pinhole camera in a location > (usually facing the sun so you can record it's path) and the come get it > after several months (upwards of 6+months). > > Opening up or checking your exposure will ruin the process much the same > as it would just taking photo paper out of the package. > > Also the image can never really be fixed as it will bleach out the print. > Exposure to further light will also degrade the image (even the scanner > light) > > > > On May 3, 2013, at 6:40 PM, Jack Fulton wrote: > > > . . . . and, Francesco, did, at any time during this long exposure, di > you look at it? > > Secondly, how did you finalize the process? > > Thanks > > Jack > > > > > > > > > > On May 3, 2013, at 4:20 PM, Francesco Fragomeni > wrote: > > > >> Just a standard pinhole poked with the tip of a pin into a piece of > >> aluminum weather proofing tape. No attempt was made to make the hole any > >> smaller then it would be for a normal pinhole as the diameter of the > hole > >> and subsequent exposure measurements don't matter with solargraph > >> exposures. The phenomenon occurs because of drastic overexposure. You > just > >> set the thing up and wait however long you want to wait. The beauty of > this > >> is that there is essentially no such thing as a wrong exposure. > >> > >> -Francesco > >> > >> > >> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 4:07 PM, Jack Fulton > wrote: > >> > >>> Indeed, the whole thing is a curious phenomenon and is linked to the > Lumen > >>> prints I'd guess. > >>> The colors are what surprised me. So, if the exposure was for 7 months, > >>> the entrance hole > >>> must've been extremely small. Do you know how you made it or what the > size > >>> was? > >>> Jack > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On May 3, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Francesco Fragomeni > > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>>> It was made with photo-paper. I'm actually unsure what paper it was > >>> exactly > >>>> as I pulled it out of a mixed box of old loose paper scrap that I'd > >>>> collected so it could be anything. I wasn't convinced that it would > >>>> actually work so I didn't spend much time thinking about it. That's a > >>> shame > >>>> now as I'd like to know exactly what paper it was too. I can tell you > >>> that > >>>> it was RC but that's about it. > >>>> > >>>> -Francesco > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Ravene at gmail.com > >>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> I''m curious... Was that photo paper or film? Also what kind? > >>>>> > >>>>> It seems similar to the changes that happen with lumen prints? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On May 3, 2013, at 8:06 AM, Francesco Fragomeni < > fdfragomeni at gmail.com> > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Hi George, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> The actual color negative was quite faint but after scanning and > then > >>>>>> inverting and applying basic auto contrast and auto color in > Photoshop, > >>>>>> that's what was produced. I was quite surprised with the level of > color > >>>>>> accuracy. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -Francesco > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 3:27 AM, George L Smyth > >>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Francesco - > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Very cool, I don't know that I have seen a solargraph with those > >>>>>>> particular colors before. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Cheers - > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> george > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -------------------------------------- > >>>>>>> Bromoil: http://GeorgeSmyth.com > >>>>>>> Handmade Photographic Images: http://www.GLSmyth.com > >>>>>>> Blog: http://GLSmyth.wordpress.com > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> --- On Sun, 4/28/13, Francesco Fragomeni > >>> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> From: Francesco Fragomeni > >>>>>>>> Subject: [Alt-photo] 7 Month 25 Day Solargraph Exposure > >>>>>>>> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" < > >>>>>>> alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> > >>>>>>>> Date: Sunday, April 28, 2013, 1:33 PM > >>>>>>>> Thought some here might find this > >>>>>>>> interesting. I'd read some things about > >>>>>>>> solargraphy a while back and late last year I decided to > >>>>>>>> give it a try. It > >>>>>>>> was successful so now I plan to use it for a project that I > >>>>>>>> have in mind. > >>>>>>>> Exciting stuff. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Here is a link to my newly finished solargraph. For those > >>>>>>>> who don't know, > >>>>>>>> this is a type of pinhole photograph created via an > >>>>>>>> ultra-long exposure. In > >>>>>>>> this case, the exposure lasted 7 months and 25 days from > >>>>>>>> September 2, 2012 > >>>>>>>> to April 27, 2013. The camera survived and recorded through > >>>>>>>> Hurricane > >>>>>>>> Sandy, which despite causing tens of billions of dollars in > >>>>>>>> damage across > >>>>>>>> New York state, lasted for such a short duration of the > >>>>>>>> exposure that > >>>>>>>> virtually no sign of the storm can be seen. What's > >>>>>>>> remarkable is that a > >>>>>>>> printed-out color negative is produced by B&W silver-gel > >>>>>>>> paper. As I > >>>>>>>> understand it, the bromide in the paper under a change due > >>>>>>>> to the extreme > >>>>>>>> over-exposure which produces a color image. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> http://www.francescofragomeni.com/solargraphy/ > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Francesco Fragomeni > >>>>>>>> www.francescofragomeni.com > >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | > >>>>>>>> lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > From darryl at darrylbaird.com Sat May 4 00:24:18 2013 From: darryl at darrylbaird.com (Darryl Baird) Date: Fri, 03 May 2013 18:24:18 -0600 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Solargraph and other techniques with photo paper In-Reply-To: References: <1367490454.10305.YahooMailClassic@web164004.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5573FC55-C280-49F7-8F7E-A5657F7948FF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <29dbb837bdc4d7a0ef725bda7cc49007@darrylbaird.com> I'm always interested in Lumen prints and NOW these solargraphs. It does seem to be a trend to use paper for unique images. Take a look at this work:http://www.anzenbergergallery.com/index.php?20019566074674353000.0000175361141918820904620042013190334 On 2013-05-03 18:16, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > Jack, I'm unsure what you mean by "did I look at it?" Kurt explained it > well. You just make pinhole and set it up somewhere for an extended period > of time undisturbed. Once the exposure is complete (you decide this > whenever you want) and the camera is retrieved, you take out the exposed > paper (on which there will be a very faint printed out color negative > image) and scan it (using no pre-scan). You cannot develop or fix the paper > so the process is a genuine hybrid process requiring both analog and > digital workflows to complete. Once scanned, you treat it like any other > scanned image. As to how long the original will last, I found that a few > hours passed with it in a light room before I could see any visible > difference with the naked eye but I'm sure that a measurable difference > could be found immediately after the scan. > > -Francesco > > On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 5:03 PM, Kurt Nagy wrote: > >> With Solargraphy you essentially setup a pinhole camera in a location (usually facing the sun so you can record it's path) and the come get it after several months (upwards of 6+months). Opening up or checking your exposure will ruin the process much the same as it would just taking photo paper out of the package. Also the image can never really be fixed as it will bleach out the print. Exposure to further light will also degrade the image (even the scanner light) On May 3, 2013, at 6:40 PM, Jack Fulton wrote: >> >>> . . . . and, Francesco, did, at any time during this long exposure, di >> you look at it? >> >>> Secondly, how did you finalize the process? Thanks Jack On May 3, 2013, at 4:20 PM, Francesco Fragomeni >> wrote: and subsequent exposure measurement >> >>> ote> just set the thing >> owever long you want to wait. The beauty of this fdfragomeni at gmail.com wrote: > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo Links: ------ [1] http://www.francescofragomeni.com [2] http://GeorgeSmyth.com [3] http://www.GLSmyth.com [4] http://GLSmyth.wordpress.com From jefulton1 at comcast.net Sat May 4 01:03:15 2013 From: jefulton1 at comcast.net (Jack Fulton) Date: Fri, 3 May 2013 18:03:15 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: 7 Month 25 Day Solargraph Exposure In-Reply-To: References: <1367490454.10305.YahooMailClassic@web164004.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5573FC55-C280-49F7-8F7E-A5657F7948FF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1914B979-6005-491D-B1CC-5B96DFBB2A8D@comcast.net> This is revelatory in a tremendously fun way. Thanks for your gracious notes and open dialogue. It follows pretty much what I'd thought but I thought the end product somehow was what we saw. It slightly reminds of Dr. Levi Hill when he was trying to make color in his imagery a reality a hundred and sixty years ago. There's also a link, for me at least, to the work Denny Moers has done through not fixing but using a stop to eliminate the developer and allowing light to subject the b/w paper to changes that result in color depending upon the time one leaves it in light. Thanks. Jack On May 3, 2013, at 5:16 PM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote: > Jack, I'm unsure what you mean by "did I look at it?" Kurt explained it > well. You just make pinhole and set it up somewhere for an extended period > of time undisturbed. Once the exposure is complete (you decide this > whenever you want) and the camera is retrieved, you take out the exposed > paper (on which there will be a very faint printed out color negative > image) and scan it (using no pre-scan). You cannot develop or fix the paper > so the process is a genuine hybrid process requiring both analog and > digital workflows to complete. Once scanned, you treat it like any other > scanned image. As to how long the original will last, I found that a few > hours passed with it in a light room before I could see any visible > difference with the naked eye but I'm sure that a measurable difference > could be found immediately after the scan. > > -Francesco > > > On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 5:03 PM, Kurt Nagy wrote: > >> With Solargraphy you essentially setup a pinhole camera in a location >> (usually facing the sun so you can record it's path) and the come get it >> after several months (upwards of 6+months). >> >> Opening up or checking your exposure will ruin the process much the same >> as it would just taking photo paper out of the package. >> >> Also the image can never really be fixed as it will bleach out the print. >> Exposure to further light will also degrade the image (even the scanner >> light) >> >> >> >> On May 3, 2013, at 6:40 PM, Jack Fulton wrote: >> >>> . . . . and, Francesco, did, at any time during this long exposure, di >> you look at it? >>> Secondly, how did you finalize the process? >>> Thanks >>> Jack >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 3, 2013, at 4:20 PM, Francesco Fragomeni >> wrote: >>> >>>> Just a standard pinhole poked with the tip of a pin into a piece of >>>> aluminum weather proofing tape. No attempt was made to make the hole any >>>> smaller then it would be for a normal pinhole as the diameter of the >> hole >>>> and subsequent exposure measurements don't matter with solargraph >>>> exposures. The phenomenon occurs because of drastic overexposure. You >> just >>>> set the thing up and wait however long you want to wait. The beauty of >> this >>>> is that there is essentially no such thing as a wrong exposure. >>>> >>>> -Francesco >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 4:07 PM, Jack Fulton >> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Indeed, the whole thing is a curious phenomenon and is linked to the >> Lumen >>>>> prints I'd guess. >>>>> The colors are what surprised me. So, if the exposure was for 7 months, >>>>> the entrance hole >>>>> must've been extremely small. Do you know how you made it or what the >> size >>>>> was? >>>>> Jack >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On May 3, 2013, at 2:34 PM, Francesco Fragomeni >> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> It was made with photo-paper. I'm actually unsure what paper it was >>>>> exactly >>>>>> as I pulled it out of a mixed box of old loose paper scrap that I'd >>>>>> collected so it could be anything. I wasn't convinced that it would >>>>>> actually work so I didn't spend much time thinking about it. That's a >>>>> shame >>>>>> now as I'd like to know exactly what paper it was too. I can tell you >>>>> that >>>>>> it was RC but that's about it. >>>>>> >>>>>> -Francesco >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Ravene at gmail.com >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I''m curious... Was that photo paper or film? Also what kind? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It seems similar to the changes that happen with lumen prints? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On May 3, 2013, at 8:06 AM, Francesco Fragomeni < >> fdfragomeni at gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi George, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The actual color negative was quite faint but after scanning and >> then >>>>>>>> inverting and applying basic auto contrast and auto color in >> Photoshop, >>>>>>>> that's what was produced. I was quite surprised with the level of >> color >>>>>>>> accuracy. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -Francesco >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 3:27 AM, George L Smyth >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Francesco - >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Very cool, I don't know that I have seen a solargraph with those >>>>>>>>> particular colors before. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers - >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> george >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -------------------------------------- >>>>>>>>> Bromoil: http://GeorgeSmyth.com >>>>>>>>> Handmade Photographic Images: http://www.GLSmyth.com >>>>>>>>> Blog: http://GLSmyth.wordpress.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --- On Sun, 4/28/13, Francesco Fragomeni >>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From: Francesco Fragomeni >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [Alt-photo] 7 Month 25 Day Solargraph Exposure >>>>>>>>>> To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" < >>>>>>>>> alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org> >>>>>>>>>> Date: Sunday, April 28, 2013, 1:33 PM >>>>>>>>>> Thought some here might find this >>>>>>>>>> interesting. I'd read some things about >>>>>>>>>> solargraphy a while back and late last year I decided to >>>>>>>>>> give it a try. It >>>>>>>>>> was successful so now I plan to use it for a project that I >>>>>>>>>> have in mind. >>>>>>>>>> Exciting stuff. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Here is a link to my newly finished solargraph. For those >>>>>>>>>> who don't know, >>>>>>>>>> this is a type of pinhole photograph created via an >>>>>>>>>> ultra-long exposure. In >>>>>>>>>> this case, the exposure lasted 7 months and 25 days from >>>>>>>>>> September 2, 2012 >>>>>>>>>> to April 27, 2013. The camera survived and recorded through >>>>>>>>>> Hurricane >>>>>>>>>> Sandy, which despite causing tens of billions of dollars in >>>>>>>>>> damage across >>>>>>>>>> New York state, lasted for such a short duration of the >>>>>>>>>> exposure that >>>>>>>>>> virtually no sign of the storm can be seen. What's >>>>>>>>>> remarkable is that a >>>>>>>>>> printed-out color negative is produced by B&W silver-gel >>>>>>>>>> paper. As I >>>>>>>>>> understand it, the bromide in the paper under a change due >>>>>>>>>> to the extreme >>>>>>>>>> over-exposure which produces a color image. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> http://www.francescofragomeni.com/solargraphy/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Francesco Fragomeni >>>>>>>>>> www.francescofragomeni.com >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | >>>>>>>>>> lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From earlj at comcast.net Sat May 4 13:57:31 2013 From: earlj at comcast.net (Earl Johnson) Date: Sat, 04 May 2013 08:57:31 -0500 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification In-Reply-To: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <518513CB.5090205@comcast.net> Sulfamic acid is available at the big box home repair stores as grout cleaner. It is also one of the key ingredients in Mike Ware's argyrotype formula. Earl Johnson On 5/3/2013 7:07 AM, Serdar Bilici wrote: > This happens to be my first post to this group so hello everyone, > > I have been working with alt. processes for over a year now. Recently, I > tried different acids for neutralizing alkaline buffers in certain papers > and I believe I have found an alternative acid for this purpose. > > I have tested sulfamic acid for paper acidification and it turns out SA is > such a good performer. I have already posted the details and some samples on > APUG. So I would share the link with you. > > http://www.apug.org/forums/forum42/118153-sulfamic-acid-paper-acidification. > html > > I would be pleased to hear your opinions, suggestions for optimizing the > procedure. > I did some test using new cyanotype, argyrotype and Loris did some testing > with ziatype and argyrotype. > If you happen to test it with other papers or processes I am quite > interested to hear your results. > > And I should agains thank Loris Medici for all his support and guidance > during this process. > > Regards > Serdar Bilici > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > From sbilici at gmail.com Sat May 4 14:38:18 2013 From: sbilici at gmail.com (Serdar Bilici) Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 17:38:18 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification In-Reply-To: <518513CB.5090205@comcast.net> References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <518513CB.5090205@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0c1c01ce48d5$05520ba0$0ff622e0$@gmail.com> Hi Earl, Yes apparently sulfamic acid is easy to find and affordable. The first time I heard the name of this acid was in Mike Ware's argyrotype formula. IMO, It worked better than most acids often recommended to acidfy papers in various online forums. Regards Serdar -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Earl Johnson Sent: 04 May?s 2013 Cumartesi 16:58 To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification Sulfamic acid is available at the big box home repair stores as grout cleaner. It is also one of the key ingredients in Mike Ware's argyrotype formula. Earl Johnson On 5/3/2013 7:07 AM, Serdar Bilici wrote: > This happens to be my first post to this group so hello everyone, > > I have been working with alt. processes for over a year now. Recently, > I tried different acids for neutralizing alkaline buffers in certain > papers and I believe I have found an alternative acid for this purpose. > > I have tested sulfamic acid for paper acidification and it turns out > SA is such a good performer. I have already posted the details and > some samples on APUG. So I would share the link with you. > > http://www.apug.org/forums/forum42/118153-sulfamic-acid-paper-acidification. > html > > I would be pleased to hear your opinions, suggestions for optimizing > the procedure. > I did some test using new cyanotype, argyrotype and Loris did some > testing with ziatype and argyrotype. > If you happen to test it with other papers or processes I am quite > interested to hear your results. > > And I should agains thank Loris Medici for all his support and > guidance during this process. > > Regards > Serdar Bilici > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From gemeentehuis at gmail.com Sat May 4 20:07:50 2013 From: gemeentehuis at gmail.com (Bert Kuijer) Date: Sat, 4 May 2013 22:07:50 +0200 Subject: [Alt-photo] Tutorial film: 6 month solargraph exposure with pinhole camera Message-ID: Hi everyone, There is a nice tutorial on Youtube made by Justin Quinell. He shows how to make the camera, but also explains the process, the the photo paper and the scanning. See: http://youtu.be/wtZOWEB_wcI BTW: While you're at it, check this other film about Justin, showing how he works with a 6 month pinhole camera. The life of a pinhole photographer (about Justin Quinell): http://thelifeofdocumentary.wordpress.com/2012/06/29/the-life-of-a-pinhole-photographer/ See also the website of Justin Quinell: http://www.pinholephotography.org By taking the exposed photo paper briefly out of the canister, scanning it quickly at 400 dpi (in color - not B&W) and putting it back into the canister, you can preserve the image for quite some time. Don't let it lie open in the light, though. Don't develop, fix or do whatever with the image for it will be ruined. I tried it myself last year for 4 months. I had problems with water leaking into the camera, affecting the paper. I placed the camera facing east - that is where all rains comes from over here. So next time I'll put it in a bit more dry place or underneath something, sheltering it from direct rain. And I'll adjust the photo paper in the camera in a way so it won't touch the bottom of the camera. This way the paper won't lie in the condense forming a small pool at the bottom ;-) If you make some of these cameras and put them up in October and November, you can get them down at the end of April: right in time for the next World Pinhole Photography Day on Sunday, 29th of April, 2014. See: http://www.pinholeday.org/ "Have fun and catch that light beam!" Bert from Holland http://thetoadmen.blogspot.nl http://tinyurl.com/pinholegroup 2013/5/3 Ravene at gmail.com > I''m curious... Was that photo paper or film? Also what kind? > > It seems similar to the changes that happen with lumen prints? > > From alt.list at albertonovo.it Sun May 5 06:20:49 2013 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Sun, 05 May 2013 08:20:49 +0200 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification In-Reply-To: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> > I would be pleased to hear your opinions, suggestions for optimizing the > procedure. > I did some test using new cyanotype, argyrotype and Loris did some testing > with ziatype and argyrotype. Sedar, did you compared (by means of step tablet printing) the sulfamic acid treatment vs other acidifying methods , e.g. HCl, citric acid, etc? Alberto www.facebook.com/alberto.novo.1 www.grupponamias.com www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group From sbilici at gmail.com Sun May 5 07:11:53 2013 From: sbilici at gmail.com (Serdar Bilici) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 10:11:53 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification In-Reply-To: <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> Message-ID: <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> Hi Alberto, Unfortunately, I haven't prepared samples to compare.I started testing with HCl then oxalic acid then briefly tested citric acid. I even tried tartaric acid for fun (it works). As I have mentioned in the post, the problems I had with other acids forced me to look for an alternative in the first place. I did not want to start a 'which acid is better' argument so I did not include the problems I observed with the other acids in the forum post. I still try not to mention the problems. :) I thinks the samples and the advantages of sulfamic acid are fine enough, If people are convinced they would give it a shot IMO. P.S. I haven't tested vinegar/acetic acid on purpose. Vinegar has additives different brands have different concentrations. Concentrated acetic acid fumes is bad for lungs, considering that the acidification procedure would take considerable time I did not want that kind of exposure due to my asthma. Regards Serdar -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Alberto Novo Sent: 05 May?s 2013 Pazar 09:21 To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification > I would be pleased to hear your opinions, suggestions for optimizing > the procedure. > I did some test using new cyanotype, argyrotype and Loris did some > testing with ziatype and argyrotype. Sedar, did you compared (by means of step tablet printing) the sulfamic acid treatment vs other acidifying methods , e.g. HCl, citric acid, etc? Alberto www.facebook.com/alberto.novo.1 www.grupponamias.com www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Sun May 5 08:18:04 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 11:18:04 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification In-Reply-To: <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Alberto & Serdar, To me it works better than HCl for Fabriano Artistico TW HP and EW SP side by side. (Better tonal range and less grain, much more smoother results. siightly better Dmax - perhaps sulfamic acid leaves the paper in better physical condition than HCl,???) Maybe I could try different dilutions and/or treatment times with HCl, in order to find the sweet spot that works equally well (if there's one) but why fiddling? Sulfamic acid is much easier to deal with and the stability and capacity of the solution is very good. Regards, Loris. 2013/5/5 Serdar Bilici > > Hi Alberto, > > Unfortunately, I haven't prepared samples to compare.I started testing with > HCl then oxalic acid then briefly tested citric acid. I even tried tartaric > acid for fun (it works). > As I have mentioned in the post, the problems I had with other acids forced > me to look for an alternative in the first place. > > I did not want to start a 'which acid is better' argument so I did not > include the problems I observed with the other acids in the forum post. I > still try not to mention the problems. :) > I thinks the samples and the advantages of sulfamic acid are fine enough, If > people are convinced they would give it a shot IMO. > > P.S. I haven't tested vinegar/acetic acid on purpose. Vinegar has additives > different brands have different concentrations. > Concentrated acetic acid fumes is bad for lungs, considering that the > acidification procedure would take considerable time I did not want that > kind of exposure due to my asthma. > > Regards > Serdar > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of > Alberto Novo > Sent: 05 May?s 2013 Pazar 09:21 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification > >>> I would be pleased to hear your opinions, suggestions for optimizing >>> the procedure. >>> I did some test using new cyanotype, argyrotype and Loris did some >>> testing with ziatype and argyrotype. >> >> Sedar, did you compared (by means of step tablet printing) the sulfamic acid >> treatment vs other acidifying methods , e.g. HCl, citric acid, etc? >> >> Alberto From sbilici at gmail.com Sun May 5 09:34:24 2013 From: sbilici at gmail.com (Serdar Bilici) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 12:34:24 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification In-Reply-To: References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com> Hi Loris, I agree that there might be a sweet spot for dmax with HCl, but really why fiddle :) Sulfamic acid has a great advantage at storage, it is not as corrosive as HCl to metals, so it is safer to work indoors, the prints have better dmax in comparison. (You already know this bit, but I should include it for other readers) When I made a research about sulfamic acid and its uses, I have found out that sulfamic acid is used in modern descaling systems to remove calcium deposits instead of HCl. Due it is less corrosive but it has equally strong acidic nature. As you said, probably sulfamic acid leaves the paper in better condition compared to HCl due to its less corrosive nature. In terms of dmax, HCl treatment gave me the poorest results among the acids I have tested. Although, it was the right choice theoratically, (being a mono-acid, highly water soluble byproduct, fast reaction, good capacity) practically the results were not so appealing. Considering that the fumes of HCl would corrode the metals in the room it is used in time, I understand why it is not the most popular choice to acidfy papers. Proper ventilation is quite important when working with HCl (Dangerous chlorine gas release), on the other hand Sulfamic Acid + Calcium carbonate reaction produces only CO2 gas. Compared to HCl it is a WIN-WIN. Regards, Serdar -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Loris Medici Sent: 05 May?s 2013 Pazar 11:18 To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification Hi Alberto & Serdar, To me it works better than HCl for Fabriano Artistico TW HP and EW SP side by side. (Better tonal range and less grain, much more smoother results. siightly better Dmax - perhaps sulfamic acid leaves the paper in better physical condition than HCl,???) Maybe I could try different dilutions and/or treatment times with HCl, in order to find the sweet spot that works equally well (if there's one) but why fiddling? Sulfamic acid is much easier to deal with and the stability and capacity of the solution is very good. Regards, Loris. 2013/5/5 Serdar Bilici > > Hi Alberto, > > Unfortunately, I haven't prepared samples to compare.I started testing with > HCl then oxalic acid then briefly tested citric acid. I even tried tartaric > acid for fun (it works). > As I have mentioned in the post, the problems I had with other acids forced > me to look for an alternative in the first place. > > I did not want to start a 'which acid is better' argument so I did not > include the problems I observed with the other acids in the forum > post. I still try not to mention the problems. :) I thinks the samples > and the advantages of sulfamic acid are fine enough, If > people are convinced they would give it a shot IMO. > > P.S. I haven't tested vinegar/acetic acid on purpose. Vinegar has additives > different brands have different concentrations. > Concentrated acetic acid fumes is bad for lungs, considering that the > acidification procedure would take considerable time I did not want > that kind of exposure due to my asthma. > > Regards > Serdar > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On > Behalf Of > Alberto Novo > Sent: 05 May?s 2013 Pazar 09:21 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification > >>> I would be pleased to hear your opinions, suggestions for optimizing >>> the procedure. >>> I did some test using new cyanotype, argyrotype and Loris did some >>> testing with ziatype and argyrotype. >> >> Sedar, did you compared (by means of step tablet printing) the >> sulfamic acid >> treatment vs other acidifying methods , e.g. HCl, citric acid, etc? >> >> Alberto _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Sun May 5 10:51:40 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 13:51:40 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification In-Reply-To: <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com> References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Serdar, The evaluation depends on the process too; for instance, pt/pd is more forgiving about the acit pre-treatment operation but new cyanotype and argyrotype aren't. A paper treated in HCl would work OK with pt/pd but not OK witj new cyanotype or argyrotype. I'm personally more interested in the latter right now, I wasn't printing argyrotype much because it was more demanding (than vandyke) about paper, now that I make it work with many papers, I'm about to dump vandyke forever in favour of argyrotype... Sulfamic acid pre-treatment made quite difference for me, because when it works (or you make it work with sulfamic acid), I find argyrotype being a lot better than vandyke in every aspect. (Dmax, tonal range and smoothness, hue...) Regards, Loris. 2013/5/5 Serdar Bilici > > Hi Loris, > > I agree that there might be a sweet spot for dmax with HCl, but really why fiddle :) Sulfamic acid has a great advantage at storage, it is not as corrosive as HCl to metals, so it is safer to work indoors, the prints have better dmax in comparison. > > (You already know this bit, but I should include it for other readers) > When I made a research about sulfamic acid and its uses, I have found out that sulfamic acid is used in modern descaling systems to remove calcium deposits instead of HCl. Due it is less corrosive but it has equally strong acidic nature. As you said, probably sulfamic acid leaves the paper in better condition compared to HCl due to its less corrosive nature. > > In terms of dmax, HCl treatment gave me the poorest results among the acids I have tested. Although, it was the right choice theoratically, (being a mono-acid, highly water soluble byproduct, fast reaction, good capacity) practically the results were not so appealing. Considering that the fumes of HCl would corrode the metals in the room it is used in time, I understand why it is not the most popular choice to acidfy papers. Proper ventilation is quite important when working with HCl (Dangerous chlorine gas release), on the other hand Sulfamic Acid + Calcium carbonate reaction produces only CO2 gas. > > Compared to HCl it is a WIN-WIN. > > Regards, > Serdar From sbilici at gmail.com Sun May 5 11:28:07 2013 From: sbilici at gmail.com (Serdar Bilici) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 14:28:07 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification In-Reply-To: References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0cdd01ce4983$9e919ed0$dbb4dc70$@gmail.com> Hi Loris, It depends on the process too, you are absolutely right. I should have clarified that my results using HCl treated papers with new cyanotype and argyrotype were quite unsatisfactory. I have only tested new cyanotype and argyrotype ( because of their particular demand of chemical purity in paper and I don't have chemistry for other delicate processes :) ) but I know from the sample you sent me, it is working well with POP pd as well. This is one of the reason why I favor sulfamic acid as well, when it works it works good. (Up to now it has worked well with processes that demand unbuffered chemically clean paper). May be I should elaborate more about my experience with other acids later. Regards, Serdar -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Loris Medici Sent: 05 May?s 2013 Pazar 13:52 To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification Hi Serdar, The evaluation depends on the process too; for instance, pt/pd is more forgiving about the acit pre-treatment operation but new cyanotype and argyrotype aren't. A paper treated in HCl would work OK with pt/pd but not OK witj new cyanotype or argyrotype. I'm personally more interested in the latter right now, I wasn't printing argyrotype much because it was more demanding (than vandyke) about paper, now that I make it work with many papers, I'm about to dump vandyke forever in favour of argyrotype... Sulfamic acid pre-treatment made quite difference for me, because when it works (or you make it work with sulfamic acid), I find argyrotype being a lot better than vandyke in every aspect. (Dmax, tonal range and smoothness, hue...) Regards, Loris. 2013/5/5 Serdar Bilici > > Hi Loris, > > I agree that there might be a sweet spot for dmax with HCl, but really why fiddle :) Sulfamic acid has a great advantage at storage, it is not as corrosive as HCl to metals, so it is safer to work indoors, the prints have better dmax in comparison. > > (You already know this bit, but I should include it for other readers) > When I made a research about sulfamic acid and its uses, I have found > out that sulfamic acid is used in modern descaling systems to remove calcium deposits instead of HCl. Due it is less corrosive but it has equally strong acidic nature. As you said, probably sulfamic acid leaves the paper in better condition compared to HCl due to its less corrosive nature. > > In terms of dmax, HCl treatment gave me the poorest results among the acids I have tested. Although, it was the right choice theoratically, (being a mono-acid, highly water soluble byproduct, fast reaction, good capacity) practically the results were not so appealing. Considering that the fumes of HCl would corrode the metals in the room it is used in time, I understand why it is not the most popular choice to acidfy papers. Proper ventilation is quite important when working with HCl (Dangerous chlorine gas release), on the other hand Sulfamic Acid + Calcium carbonate reaction produces only CO2 gas. > > Compared to HCl it is a WIN-WIN. > > Regards, > Serdar _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From christinazanderson at gmail.com Sun May 5 14:19:09 2013 From: christinazanderson at gmail.com (Christina Anderson) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 08:19:09 -0600 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification In-Reply-To: References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8591E99F-8EDD-4929-B52E-B1551A0FA9EB@gmail.com> Dear Serdar and Loris, etc. This is really great news! Thanks for this discussion. I just finished the semester as of yesterday (thank heavens for summer vacation), teaching a new batch of alt students. I had a discussion with a couple of my top students how to make the class better and one of the very important points they brought up is to limit the class to specific papers that are known to work--say, three--to make it easier. I would say that inappropriate paper is the top reason prints fail. This semester I have been having the students (to save money) acidify their paper with the available stop bath in the lab and that has worked well enough to save them money and not introduce another chemical in the darkroom, but sulfamic acid is so cheap and readily available I could see having a container of that easiiy in the darkroom. I do not have HCL in there for obvious reasons. It is so useful when people share their current top tidbit of the month to the list! Learning continues. Serdar, do please share your notes on comparing the acids. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On May 5, 2013, at 4:51 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > Hi Serdar, > > The evaluation depends on the process too; for instance, pt/pd is more > forgiving about the acit pre-treatment operation but new cyanotype and > argyrotype aren't. A paper treated in HCl would work OK with pt/pd but not > OK witj new cyanotype or argyrotype. I'm personally more interested in the > latter right now, I wasn't printing argyrotype much because it was more > demanding (than vandyke) about paper, now that I make it work with many > papers, I'm about to dump vandyke forever in favour of argyrotype... > Sulfamic acid pre-treatment made quite difference for me, because when it > works (or you make it work with sulfamic acid), I find argyrotype being a > lot better than vandyke in every aspect. (Dmax, tonal range and smoothness, > hue...) > > Regards, > Loris. > > > 2013/5/5 Serdar Bilici >> >> Hi Loris, >> >> I agree that there might be a sweet spot for dmax with HCl, but really > why fiddle :) Sulfamic acid has a great advantage at storage, it is not as > corrosive as HCl to metals, so it is safer to work indoors, the prints have > better dmax in comparison. >> >> (You already know this bit, but I should include it for other readers) >> When I made a research about sulfamic acid and its uses, I have found out > that sulfamic acid is used in modern descaling systems to remove calcium > deposits instead of HCl. Due it is less corrosive but it has equally strong > acidic nature. As you said, probably sulfamic acid leaves the paper in > better condition compared to HCl due to its less corrosive nature. >> >> In terms of dmax, HCl treatment gave me the poorest results among the > acids I have tested. Although, it was the right choice theoratically, > (being a mono-acid, highly water soluble byproduct, fast reaction, good > capacity) practically the results were not so appealing. Considering that > the fumes of HCl would corrode the metals in the room it is used in time, I > understand why it is not the most popular choice to acidfy papers. Proper > ventilation is quite important when working with HCl (Dangerous chlorine > gas release), on the other hand Sulfamic Acid + Calcium carbonate reaction > produces only CO2 gas. >> >> Compared to HCl it is a WIN-WIN. >> >> Regards, >> Serdar > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From christinazanderson at gmail.com Sun May 5 14:27:29 2013 From: christinazanderson at gmail.com (Christina Anderson) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 08:27:29 -0600 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification In-Reply-To: References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <055C0EC2-779E-4D0F-A8B5-9A3A48090961@gmail.com> Loris, I hear you, about VDB and argyrotype. I switch back and forth between the two processes every semester. Last year I had a bunch of papers that I distributed to the students that were "good for alt" and they were not good for argyrotype. Very disappointing. On a side note, this year I went to mix argyrotype for the next day's lab and did not have a key ingredient on hand so the morning of the lab I mixed up a batch of VDB, praying that there would be no problem since it was a fresh solution. There was no problem. Excellent prints, no paper troubles with no aging of solution. And no acidfying of paper. I also had to mix it rapidly (and you know how that goes with VDB, it'll go milky on you with the last additions of silver) but I was using hot distilled water to mix because the lab was imminent and lo and behold, no milky solution either. One of those good days where all things worked out well in a pinch. Chris On May 5, 2013, at 4:51 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > Hi Serdar, > > The evaluation depends on the process too; for instance, pt/pd is more > forgiving about the acit pre-treatment operation but new cyanotype and > argyrotype aren't. A paper treated in HCl would work OK with pt/pd but not > OK witj new cyanotype or argyrotype. I'm personally more interested in the > latter right now, I wasn't printing argyrotype much because it was more > demanding (than vandyke) about paper, now that I make it work with many > papers, I'm about to dump vandyke forever in favour of argyrotype... > Sulfamic acid pre-treatment made quite difference for me, because when it > works (or you make it work with sulfamic acid), I find argyrotype being a > lot better than vandyke in every aspect. (Dmax, tonal range and smoothness, > hue...) > > Regards, > Loris. > > From christinazanderson at gmail.com Sun May 5 14:56:08 2013 From: christinazanderson at gmail.com (Christina Anderson) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 08:56:08 -0600 Subject: [Alt-photo] gum tip Message-ID: Dear List, Too busy a semester to post but relief is now in sight, with summer! I wanted to share a student tip on gum. If you go to the URL below, there is a print that Jordyn Wohler did. She shared that she was able to erase a gum layer with a white eraser (like a Mars Staedtler) after it was DRY. You can see from this image, she was doing so between the flowers so you can see how complex that would be. Like the Jack Brubaker Scotch Brite pad tip, this is now the Jordyn Wohler tip. Also at the same URL is a casein print, only the second or third, done by another student, Sara Kremer. I taught gum as usual this year but am now introducing casein in the second week of gum (they have 4 weeks on gum, which I find really gives them time to learn the process) so they can choose to do one or both and compare. I mix up a batch of casein and have it in the dimroom for them and they tend to think it is "just another colloid" like gum, which it is and...isn't. Sara's first print of a peacock in casein was also lovely. http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=1953 Student successes are what makes teaching so worthwhile! This week I get to finally get back in the dimroom and do some Family of Origin in casein. Very excited! Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com From sbilici at gmail.com Sun May 5 16:19:09 2013 From: sbilici at gmail.com (Serdar Bilici) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 19:19:09 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification In-Reply-To: <8591E99F-8EDD-4929-B52E-B1551A0FA9EB@gmail.com> References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com> <8591E99F-8EDD-4929-B52E-B1551A0FA9EB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0d2501ce49ac$46dc7a60$d4956f20$@gmail.com> Hi Christina, In terms of papers, Canson Montval 300gsm and Schoellerschammer Dura Matt 180gsm (drawing paper, 300gsm is better both are hotpressed ) were the cheapest papers I tested. And I must say Canson Montval is overall a great performer with new cyanotype and argyrotype after SA treatment. I am a bit tired of its texture but it performs quite well with almost anything I have used it for. I ran out of schoellerschammer so I did not continue testing it, but I had one of the best double coated untoned VDBs with that paper(300gsm) in terms of dmax. I should start making a list of cons and pros of the acids I tested, and post later as a separate post. Regards Serdar -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Christina Anderson Sent: 05 May?s 2013 Pazar 17:19 To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification Dear Serdar and Loris, etc. This is really great news! Thanks for this discussion. I just finished the semester as of yesterday (thank heavens for summer vacation), teaching a new batch of alt students. I had a discussion with a couple of my top students how to make the class better and one of the very important points they brought up is to limit the class to specific papers that are known to work--say, three--to make it easier. I would say that inappropriate paper is the top reason prints fail. This semester I have been having the students (to save money) acidify their paper with the available stop bath in the lab and that has worked well enough to save them money and not introduce another chemical in the darkroom, but sulfamic acid is so cheap and readily available I could see having a container of that easiiy in the darkroom. I do not have HCL in there for obvious reasons. It is so useful when people share their current top tidbit of the month to the list! Learning continues. Serdar, do please share your notes on comparing the acids. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On May 5, 2013, at 4:51 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > Hi Serdar, > > The evaluation depends on the process too; for instance, pt/pd is more > forgiving about the acit pre-treatment operation but new cyanotype and > argyrotype aren't. A paper treated in HCl would work OK with pt/pd but > not OK witj new cyanotype or argyrotype. I'm personally more > interested in the latter right now, I wasn't printing argyrotype much > because it was more demanding (than vandyke) about paper, now that I > make it work with many papers, I'm about to dump vandyke forever in favour of argyrotype... > Sulfamic acid pre-treatment made quite difference for me, because when > it works (or you make it work with sulfamic acid), I find argyrotype > being a lot better than vandyke in every aspect. (Dmax, tonal range > and smoothness, > hue...) > > Regards, > Loris. > > > 2013/5/5 Serdar Bilici >> >> Hi Loris, >> >> I agree that there might be a sweet spot for dmax with HCl, but >> really > why fiddle :) Sulfamic acid has a great advantage at storage, it is > not as corrosive as HCl to metals, so it is safer to work indoors, the > prints have better dmax in comparison. >> >> (You already know this bit, but I should include it for other >> readers) When I made a research about sulfamic acid and its uses, I >> have found out > that sulfamic acid is used in modern descaling systems to remove > calcium deposits instead of HCl. Due it is less corrosive but it has > equally strong acidic nature. As you said, probably sulfamic acid > leaves the paper in better condition compared to HCl due to its less corrosive nature. >> >> In terms of dmax, HCl treatment gave me the poorest results among the > acids I have tested. Although, it was the right choice theoratically, > (being a mono-acid, highly water soluble byproduct, fast reaction, > good > capacity) practically the results were not so appealing. Considering > that the fumes of HCl would corrode the metals in the room it is used > in time, I understand why it is not the most popular choice to acidfy > papers. Proper ventilation is quite important when working with HCl > (Dangerous chlorine gas release), on the other hand Sulfamic Acid + > Calcium carbonate reaction produces only CO2 gas. >> >> Compared to HCl it is a WIN-WIN. >> >> Regards, >> Serdar > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From bobkiss at caribsurf.com Sun May 5 18:23:53 2013 From: bobkiss at caribsurf.com (KISS BOB) Date: Sun, 05 May 2013 14:23:53 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] USHIO-FREESTYLE BULB O.K. FOR 26-1KS? Message-ID: DEAR LIST, I think this is on topic because I use my 26-1KS Metal Halide plate burner exclusively for making alt photo prints; cyano, pt/pd, salt, & albumen. A while back someone pointed out the Ushio MHL1000/1 Nuarc GW114 Plate Burner Bulb (metal halide) available from Freestyle (about $50) as a much less expensive alternative to the metal halide replacement bulb (about $170) made for my plate burner. However, this Ushio bulb is rated at 1200 W and the manufacturer's recommended bulb is 800 w. That is a 50% increase in power draw and I suspect it would at least blow fuses in the burner if not fry some of the bulb power supply circuits. Has anyone *personally* (as opposed to anecdotal "knowledge") successfully used the Ushio bulb in their 26-1KS Metal Halide plate burner? CHEERS! BOB From frangst at gmail.com Sun May 5 19:03:25 2013 From: frangst at gmail.com (francis schanberger) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 15:03:25 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: USHIO-FREESTYLE BULB O.K. FOR 26-1KS? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bob, I may have used this bulb or something equivalent. It may be related but at the moment I can't get the 26 1K to ignite the bulb. It did work when I first got it. I'll inspect the fuses but I have no way of evaluating the power supply circuits. The integrator powers up but that's it. -francis On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 2:23 PM, KISS BOB wrote: > DEAR LIST, > I think this is on topic because I use my 26-1KS Metal Halide plate > burner exclusively for making alt photo prints; cyano, pt/pd, salt, & > albumen. > A while back someone pointed out the Ushio MHL1000/1 Nuarc GW114 > Plate Burner Bulb (metal halide) available from Freestyle (about $50) as a > much less expensive alternative to the metal halide replacement bulb (about > $170) made for my plate burner. However, this Ushio bulb is rated at 1200 > W and the manufacturer's recommended bulb is 800 w. That is a 50% increase > in power draw and I suspect it would at least blow fuses in the burner if > not fry some of the bulb power supply circuits. > Has anyone *personally* (as opposed to anecdotal "knowledge") > successfully used the Ushio bulb in their 26-1KS Metal Halide plate burner? > CHEERS! > BOB > ______________________________**_________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/**mailman/listinfo > -- francis schanberger www.francisschanberger.com From sbilici at gmail.com Sun May 5 19:11:14 2013 From: sbilici at gmail.com (Serdar Bilici) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 22:11:14 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification In-Reply-To: <8591E99F-8EDD-4929-B52E-B1551A0FA9EB@gmail.com> References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com> <8591E99F-8EDD-4929-B52E-B1551A0FA9EB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0d2a01ce49c4$510f7bf0$f32e73d0$@gmail.com> Hi Christina, I have listed my observations and thoughts on the acids I have tested for paper acidification (and one acid I haven't tested). I did not include these in the initial post, because I do not want to start a debate on everyones favorite acid for paper treatment. And as Loris pointed out the evaluation depends on the process. My observations are based on the new cyanotype, argyrotype and VDB (I used it as a control to observe if there has been any improvement with the paper in general). Sulfamic Acid vs Hydrochloric Acid (HCl) -Both are equally strong acids, both are ph 0 at 1M solutions -Reactions with both acids produce highly water soluble byproducts -HCl evaporates easily, so it is hazardous to use without proper ventilation, it has irritating odor. -Sulfamic acid has no odor, I have not come across any warning on SA fumes. HCl treated papers produced weaker dmax with the new cyanotype and argyrotype. I must say I had deeper blues with the same papers using traditional cyanotype formula. Papers were definetely clear of buffer but did not perform well with new cyanotype, argyrotype and even with VDB. Anyway, that was the turning point that I decided to look for another acid, otherwise there was no point in making prints with such poor dmax. Sulfamic Acid vs Citric Acid -Citric acid is weaker compared to sulfamic acid, I have not tested its capacity but theoratically it will exhaust faster than sulfamic acid. -1M CA solution has ph of 5 (source: internet), SA has 0. -Reaction with citric acid produces, water insoluble calcium citrate inside the paper. In dry form it is a white powder substance. I have not noticed its presence even with the thinnest papers that I have tested. (200gsm FATW and 180gsm Schoellerschammer) -To prepare 1M 1lt citric acid solution 192 grams of acid is needed, 1M 1lt of Sulfamic acid requires only 97 grams. Roughly it is double the amount for a considerably weaker acid. Their costs per kilograms are similar. I started experimenting with citric acid at the same time, I started testing sulfamic acid. Citric acid results were definetely far better than HCl, they were as good as my initial results with SA (for new cyanotype and argyrotype), but I did not continue testing it. Because double the amount to prepare 1M solution which is far weaker in acidity and who knows how few papers it would neutralize seemed too costly. If I was going to spend such money on acids, I would rather spend it on cheap but reliable awagami masa paper and order some from USA. That is why I stopped testing citric acid, and continued with sulfamic acid. So I must clarify, citric acid works quite good too, but it is too costly to justify IMO. Sulfamic acid vs Acetic Acid/Vinegar (Rather, why I haven't tested it) -Vinegar is unreliable due to additives IMO, and the acidity changes from brand to brand -I did not want to try concentrated acetic acid due to its strong irritating odor. -Acetic acid is also a weak acid (around ph4 as I recal) -But byproduct of reaction is highly water soluble calcium acetate, which is great. That was it actually, why I haven't even tested acetic acid/vinegar. Strong odor, weak acidity and probable cost due to its weakness. I know some people use vinegar or acetic acid, and if it works for them that is great , but cost wise, I find SA to be a better choice. Sulfamic Acid vs Oxalic Acid -Oxalic acid is a strong acid (I haven't measured it, wiki says it is stronger than acetic acid), but SA is stronger, has a ph of 0 -1M 1lt OA solution requires 126grams of acid. 1M 1lt SA requires 97grams -The reaction produces water insoluble calcium oxalate crystals inside the paper. Calcium oxalate is soluble in EDTA. Although, oxalic acid is probably the most popular acid recommended for neutralizing buffer, these crystals are a considerable problem for processes that does not involve a EDTA wash step. These crystals were not noticable with thick papers (CansonMontval 300gsm or Gvarro 420gsm), but thin hot pressed papers like FabrianoArtistico TW HP 200gsm and Schoellerschammer 180gsm practically turned to sand-papers. Especially after coating new cyanotype, I think the crystals become more pronounced (may be from the oxalate in new cyanotype chemistry, just a wild guess). So, OA treated thin hot pressed papers became useless IMO, and not just for new cyanotype or argyrotype. As long as there are crystals on the surface it is useless for any process. The prints had satisfactory dmax, although the surface of the paper was filled with tiny white crystals. But the Dmax with new cyanotype on 200 gsm FATW HP and on CansonMontval were not good as the dmax I got with sulfamic acid. I must mention FATW HP is a quite a poor performer among all the papers I have tested even with VDB (before and after SA treatment). But the actual problem was the presence of shiny white crystals poking out from the paper. Considering all these, I had best dmax with sulfamic acid treatment for new cyanotype, argyortype. There is a slight increase in dmax with VDB too and shift in color towards cooler maronish browns. There is no insoluble byproduct in paper, no nasty odor. It has strong acidity and it is cheap. It can be stored indefinetely in powder form and it has a great capacity (1M 3lt would neutralize 45 full sheets). These are the reasons why I considered sulfamic acid to be a better choice of acid for paper acidification. P.S. Feel free to correct me, I have written a lot of chemistry stuff and I am quite a newbie at such things. Best Regards, Serdar From clay at clayharmon.com Sun May 5 19:39:47 2013 From: clay at clayharmon.com (clay at clayharmon.com) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 15:39:47 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification In-Reply-To: <0d2a01ce49c4$510f7bf0$f32e73d0$@gmail.com> References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com> <8591E99F-8EDD-4929-B52E-B1551A0FA9EB@gmail.com> <0d2a01ce49c4$510f7bf0$f32e73d0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <23E55CD8-B287-4C45-B830-DE3DC878D360@clayharmon.com> Serdar, Thanks for this comprehensive summary. You can be sure I am going to use this for my next batch of paper that needs to be acidified. Your description also made me wonder if anyone on the list has tried sulfamic acid as a clearing agent for platinum and palladium. I have occasionally run into some very absorbent papers that seem to stubbornly hold onto the residual ferric oxalate sensitizer, and in those cases have often resorted to a bath of either dilute HCl or dilute phosphoric acid to clear the paper. Like others have mentioned, storing a bottle of HCl in your darkroom is an invitation for all sorts of corrosion issues. I store mine outside the house for this reason. The sulfamic acid sounds ideal for use as a clearing agent in the first clearing bath or two, followed by something a little gentler. I suspect that the sulfamic would probably produce some H2S (stinky!) if you took the paper directly from the acid to a sodium-sulfite based hypoclearing bath. But I would guess that you could minimize that with a clean water rinse in between. -Clay On May 5, 2013, at 3:11 PM, "Serdar Bilici" wrote: > Hi Christina, > > I have listed my observations and thoughts on the acids I have tested for > paper acidification (and one acid I haven't tested). I did not include these > in the initial post, because I do not want to start a debate on everyones > favorite acid for paper treatment. > > And as Loris pointed out the evaluation depends on the process. My > observations are based on the new cyanotype, argyrotype and VDB (I used it > as a control to observe if there has been any improvement with the paper in > general). > > Sulfamic Acid vs Hydrochloric Acid (HCl) > -Both are equally strong acids, both are ph 0 at 1M solutions > -Reactions with both acids produce highly water soluble byproducts > -HCl evaporates easily, so it is hazardous to use without proper > ventilation, it has irritating odor. > -Sulfamic acid has no odor, I have not come across any warning on SA fumes. > > HCl treated papers produced weaker dmax with the new cyanotype and > argyrotype. I must say I had deeper blues with the same papers using > traditional cyanotype formula. Papers were definetely clear of buffer but > did not perform well with new cyanotype, argyrotype and even with VDB. > Anyway, that was the turning point that I decided to look for another acid, > otherwise there was no point in making prints with such poor dmax. > > > Sulfamic Acid vs Citric Acid > -Citric acid is weaker compared to sulfamic acid, I have not tested its > capacity but theoratically it will exhaust faster than sulfamic acid. > -1M CA solution has ph of 5 (source: internet), SA has 0. > -Reaction with citric acid produces, water insoluble calcium citrate inside > the paper. In dry form it is a white powder substance. I have not noticed > its presence even with the thinnest papers that I have tested. (200gsm FATW > and 180gsm Schoellerschammer) > -To prepare 1M 1lt citric acid solution 192 grams of acid is needed, 1M 1lt > of Sulfamic acid requires only 97 grams. Roughly it is double the amount for > a considerably weaker acid. Their costs per kilograms are similar. > > I started experimenting with citric acid at the same time, I started testing > sulfamic acid. Citric acid results were definetely far better than HCl, they > were as good as my initial results with SA (for new cyanotype and > argyrotype), but I did not continue testing it. Because double the amount to > prepare 1M solution which is far weaker in acidity and who knows how few > papers it would neutralize seemed too costly. If I was going to spend such > money on acids, I would rather spend it on cheap but reliable awagami masa > paper and order some from USA. That is why I stopped testing citric acid, > and continued with sulfamic acid. > > So I must clarify, citric acid works quite good too, but it is too costly to > justify IMO. > > Sulfamic acid vs Acetic Acid/Vinegar (Rather, why I haven't tested it) > -Vinegar is unreliable due to additives IMO, and the acidity changes from > brand to brand > -I did not want to try concentrated acetic acid due to its strong irritating > odor. > -Acetic acid is also a weak acid (around ph4 as I recal) > -But byproduct of reaction is highly water soluble calcium acetate, which is > great. > > That was it actually, why I haven't even tested acetic acid/vinegar. Strong > odor, weak acidity and probable cost due to its weakness. > I know some people use vinegar or acetic acid, and if it works for them that > is great , but cost wise, I find SA to be a better choice. > > Sulfamic Acid vs Oxalic Acid > -Oxalic acid is a strong acid (I haven't measured it, wiki says it is > stronger than acetic acid), but SA is stronger, has a ph of 0 > -1M 1lt OA solution requires 126grams of acid. 1M 1lt SA requires 97grams > -The reaction produces water insoluble calcium oxalate crystals inside the > paper. Calcium oxalate is soluble in EDTA. > > Although, oxalic acid is probably the most popular acid recommended for > neutralizing buffer, these crystals are a considerable problem for processes > that does not involve a EDTA wash step. > > These crystals were not noticable with thick papers (CansonMontval 300gsm or > Gvarro 420gsm), but thin hot pressed papers like FabrianoArtistico TW HP > 200gsm and Schoellerschammer 180gsm practically turned to sand-papers. > Especially after coating new cyanotype, I think the crystals become more > pronounced (may be from the oxalate in new cyanotype chemistry, just a wild > guess). So, OA treated thin hot pressed papers became useless IMO, and not > just for new cyanotype or argyrotype. As long as there are crystals on the > surface it is useless for any process. > > The prints had satisfactory dmax, although the surface of the paper was > filled with tiny white crystals. But the Dmax with new cyanotype on 200 gsm > FATW HP and on CansonMontval were not good as the dmax I got with sulfamic > acid. I must mention FATW HP is a quite a poor performer among all the > papers I have tested even with VDB (before and after SA treatment). But the > actual problem was the presence of shiny white crystals poking out from the > paper. > > > Considering all these, > I had best dmax with sulfamic acid treatment for new cyanotype, argyortype. > There is a slight increase in dmax with VDB too and shift in color towards > cooler maronish browns. > There is no insoluble byproduct in paper, no nasty odor. It has strong > acidity and it is cheap. It can be stored indefinetely in powder form and it > has a great capacity (1M 3lt would neutralize 45 full sheets). > > These are the reasons why I considered sulfamic acid to be a better choice > of acid for paper acidification. > > > P.S. Feel free to correct me, I have written a lot of chemistry stuff and I > am quite a newbie at such things. > > Best Regards, > Serdar > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From alt.photosbyjeremy at gmail.com Sun May 5 19:52:01 2013 From: alt.photosbyjeremy at gmail.com (Jeremy Moore) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 14:52:01 -0500 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification In-Reply-To: <23E55CD8-B287-4C45-B830-DE3DC878D360@clayharmon.com> References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com> <8591E99F-8EDD-4929-B52E-B1551A0FA9EB@gmail.com> <0d2a01ce49c4$510f7bf0$f32e73d0$@gmail.com> <23E55CD8-B287-4C45-B830-DE3DC878D360@clayharmon.com> Message-ID: Clay, I was wondering the same thing about using it as a clearing bath. Please report back if you test it. It's always great to reduce the number of chemicals we need to keep on hand! - Jeremy On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 2:39 PM, clay at clayharmon.com wrote: > Serdar, > > Thanks for this comprehensive summary. You can be sure I am going to use > this for my next batch of paper that needs to be acidified. > > Your description also made me wonder if anyone on the list has tried > sulfamic acid as a clearing agent for platinum and palladium. I have > occasionally run into some very absorbent papers that seem to stubbornly > hold onto the residual ferric oxalate sensitizer, and in those cases have > often resorted to a bath of either dilute HCl or dilute phosphoric acid to > clear the paper. > > Like others have mentioned, storing a bottle of HCl in your darkroom is an > invitation for all sorts of corrosion issues. I store mine outside the > house for this reason. The sulfamic acid sounds ideal for use as a clearing > agent in the first clearing bath or two, followed by something a little > gentler. I suspect that the sulfamic would probably produce some H2S > (stinky!) if you took the paper directly from the acid to a sodium-sulfite > based hypoclearing bath. But I would guess that you could minimize that > with a clean water rinse in between. > > -Clay > On May 5, 2013, at 3:11 PM, "Serdar Bilici" wrote: > > > Hi Christina, > > > > I have listed my observations and thoughts on the acids I have tested for > > paper acidification (and one acid I haven't tested). I did not include > these > > in the initial post, because I do not want to start a debate on everyones > > favorite acid for paper treatment. > > > > And as Loris pointed out the evaluation depends on the process. My > > observations are based on the new cyanotype, argyrotype and VDB (I used > it > > as a control to observe if there has been any improvement with the paper > in > > general). > > > > Sulfamic Acid vs Hydrochloric Acid (HCl) > > -Both are equally strong acids, both are ph 0 at 1M solutions > > -Reactions with both acids produce highly water soluble byproducts > > -HCl evaporates easily, so it is hazardous to use without proper > > ventilation, it has irritating odor. > > -Sulfamic acid has no odor, I have not come across any warning on SA > fumes. > > > > HCl treated papers produced weaker dmax with the new cyanotype and > > argyrotype. I must say I had deeper blues with the same papers using > > traditional cyanotype formula. Papers were definetely clear of buffer but > > did not perform well with new cyanotype, argyrotype and even with VDB. > > Anyway, that was the turning point that I decided to look for another > acid, > > otherwise there was no point in making prints with such poor dmax. > > > > > > Sulfamic Acid vs Citric Acid > > -Citric acid is weaker compared to sulfamic acid, I have not tested its > > capacity but theoratically it will exhaust faster than sulfamic acid. > > -1M CA solution has ph of 5 (source: internet), SA has 0. > > -Reaction with citric acid produces, water insoluble calcium citrate > inside > > the paper. In dry form it is a white powder substance. I have not noticed > > its presence even with the thinnest papers that I have tested. (200gsm > FATW > > and 180gsm Schoellerschammer) > > -To prepare 1M 1lt citric acid solution 192 grams of acid is needed, 1M > 1lt > > of Sulfamic acid requires only 97 grams. Roughly it is double the amount > for > > a considerably weaker acid. Their costs per kilograms are similar. > > > > I started experimenting with citric acid at the same time, I started > testing > > sulfamic acid. Citric acid results were definetely far better than HCl, > they > > were as good as my initial results with SA (for new cyanotype and > > argyrotype), but I did not continue testing it. Because double the > amount to > > prepare 1M solution which is far weaker in acidity and who knows how few > > papers it would neutralize seemed too costly. If I was going to spend > such > > money on acids, I would rather spend it on cheap but reliable awagami > masa > > paper and order some from USA. That is why I stopped testing citric acid, > > and continued with sulfamic acid. > > > > So I must clarify, citric acid works quite good too, but it is too > costly to > > justify IMO. > > > > Sulfamic acid vs Acetic Acid/Vinegar (Rather, why I haven't tested it) > > -Vinegar is unreliable due to additives IMO, and the acidity changes from > > brand to brand > > -I did not want to try concentrated acetic acid due to its strong > irritating > > odor. > > -Acetic acid is also a weak acid (around ph4 as I recal) > > -But byproduct of reaction is highly water soluble calcium acetate, > which is > > great. > > > > That was it actually, why I haven't even tested acetic acid/vinegar. > Strong > > odor, weak acidity and probable cost due to its weakness. > > I know some people use vinegar or acetic acid, and if it works for them > that > > is great , but cost wise, I find SA to be a better choice. > > > > Sulfamic Acid vs Oxalic Acid > > -Oxalic acid is a strong acid (I haven't measured it, wiki says it is > > stronger than acetic acid), but SA is stronger, has a ph of 0 > > -1M 1lt OA solution requires 126grams of acid. 1M 1lt SA requires 97grams > > -The reaction produces water insoluble calcium oxalate crystals inside > the > > paper. Calcium oxalate is soluble in EDTA. > > > > Although, oxalic acid is probably the most popular acid recommended for > > neutralizing buffer, these crystals are a considerable problem for > processes > > that does not involve a EDTA wash step. > > > > These crystals were not noticable with thick papers (CansonMontval > 300gsm or > > Gvarro 420gsm), but thin hot pressed papers like FabrianoArtistico TW HP > > 200gsm and Schoellerschammer 180gsm practically turned to sand-papers. > > Especially after coating new cyanotype, I think the crystals become more > > pronounced (may be from the oxalate in new cyanotype chemistry, just a > wild > > guess). So, OA treated thin hot pressed papers became useless IMO, and > not > > just for new cyanotype or argyrotype. As long as there are crystals on > the > > surface it is useless for any process. > > > > The prints had satisfactory dmax, although the surface of the paper was > > filled with tiny white crystals. But the Dmax with new cyanotype on 200 > gsm > > FATW HP and on CansonMontval were not good as the dmax I got with > sulfamic > > acid. I must mention FATW HP is a quite a poor performer among all the > > papers I have tested even with VDB (before and after SA treatment). But > the > > actual problem was the presence of shiny white crystals poking out from > the > > paper. > > > > > > Considering all these, > > I had best dmax with sulfamic acid treatment for new cyanotype, > argyortype. > > There is a slight increase in dmax with VDB too and shift in color > towards > > cooler maronish browns. > > There is no insoluble byproduct in paper, no nasty odor. It has strong > > acidity and it is cheap. It can be stored indefinetely in powder form > and it > > has a great capacity (1M 3lt would neutralize 45 full sheets). > > > > These are the reasons why I considered sulfamic acid to be a better > choice > > of acid for paper acidification. > > > > > > P.S. Feel free to correct me, I have written a lot of chemistry stuff > and I > > am quite a newbie at such things. > > > > Best Regards, > > Serdar > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > From sbilici at gmail.com Sun May 5 19:52:57 2013 From: sbilici at gmail.com (Serdar Bilici) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 22:52:57 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification In-Reply-To: <23E55CD8-B287-4C45-B830-DE3DC878D360@clayharmon.com> References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com> <8591E99F-8EDD-4929-B52E-B1551A0FA9EB@gmail.com> <0d2a01ce49c4$510f7bf0$f32e73d0$@gmail.com> <23E55CD8-B287-4C45-B830-DE3DC878D360@clayharmon.com> Message-ID: <0d2c01ce49ca$24dc1e70$6e945b50$@gmail.com> Hi Clay, I am very glad if it helps. Please inform us about your results. I am personally quite curious about how SA performs with other papers and processes. :) There was a similar question in APUG too, the possibility of sulfamic acid as clearing agent. I have no idea, I don't do any of the processes that requires an iron clearing step. But I learned this when searched for information on sulfamic acid. SA is iron ligand, it forms water soluble calcium and iron(3) salts, I have no idea if that is a plus or a problem in terms of clearing the print. Regards, Serdar -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of clay at clayharmon.com Sent: 05 May?s 2013 Pazar 22:40 To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification Serdar, Thanks for this comprehensive summary. You can be sure I am going to use this for my next batch of paper that needs to be acidified. Your description also made me wonder if anyone on the list has tried sulfamic acid as a clearing agent for platinum and palladium. I have occasionally run into some very absorbent papers that seem to stubbornly hold onto the residual ferric oxalate sensitizer, and in those cases have often resorted to a bath of either dilute HCl or dilute phosphoric acid to clear the paper. Like others have mentioned, storing a bottle of HCl in your darkroom is an invitation for all sorts of corrosion issues. I store mine outside the house for this reason. The sulfamic acid sounds ideal for use as a clearing agent in the first clearing bath or two, followed by something a little gentler. I suspect that the sulfamic would probably produce some H2S (stinky!) if you took the paper directly from the acid to a sodium-sulfite based hypoclearing bath. But I would guess that you could minimize that with a clean water rinse in between. -Clay On May 5, 2013, at 3:11 PM, "Serdar Bilici" wrote: > Hi Christina, > > I have listed my observations and thoughts on the acids I have tested > for paper acidification (and one acid I haven't tested). I did not > include these in the initial post, because I do not want to start a > debate on everyones favorite acid for paper treatment. > > And as Loris pointed out the evaluation depends on the process. My > observations are based on the new cyanotype, argyrotype and VDB (I > used it as a control to observe if there has been any improvement with > the paper in general). > > Sulfamic Acid vs Hydrochloric Acid (HCl) -Both are equally strong > acids, both are ph 0 at 1M solutions -Reactions with both acids > produce highly water soluble byproducts -HCl evaporates easily, so it > is hazardous to use without proper ventilation, it has irritating > odor. > -Sulfamic acid has no odor, I have not come across any warning on SA fumes. > > HCl treated papers produced weaker dmax with the new cyanotype and > argyrotype. I must say I had deeper blues with the same papers using > traditional cyanotype formula. Papers were definetely clear of buffer > but did not perform well with new cyanotype, argyrotype and even with VDB. > Anyway, that was the turning point that I decided to look for another > acid, otherwise there was no point in making prints with such poor dmax. > > > Sulfamic Acid vs Citric Acid > -Citric acid is weaker compared to sulfamic acid, I have not tested > its capacity but theoratically it will exhaust faster than sulfamic acid. > -1M CA solution has ph of 5 (source: internet), SA has 0. > -Reaction with citric acid produces, water insoluble calcium citrate > inside the paper. In dry form it is a white powder substance. I have > not noticed its presence even with the thinnest papers that I have > tested. (200gsm FATW and 180gsm Schoellerschammer) -To prepare 1M 1lt > citric acid solution 192 grams of acid is needed, 1M 1lt of Sulfamic > acid requires only 97 grams. Roughly it is double the amount for a > considerably weaker acid. Their costs per kilograms are similar. > > I started experimenting with citric acid at the same time, I started > testing sulfamic acid. Citric acid results were definetely far better > than HCl, they were as good as my initial results with SA (for new > cyanotype and argyrotype), but I did not continue testing it. Because > double the amount to prepare 1M solution which is far weaker in > acidity and who knows how few papers it would neutralize seemed too > costly. If I was going to spend such money on acids, I would rather > spend it on cheap but reliable awagami masa paper and order some from > USA. That is why I stopped testing citric acid, and continued with sulfamic acid. > > So I must clarify, citric acid works quite good too, but it is too > costly to justify IMO. > > Sulfamic acid vs Acetic Acid/Vinegar (Rather, why I haven't tested it) > -Vinegar is unreliable due to additives IMO, and the acidity changes > from brand to brand -I did not want to try concentrated acetic acid > due to its strong irritating odor. > -Acetic acid is also a weak acid (around ph4 as I recal) -But > byproduct of reaction is highly water soluble calcium acetate, which > is great. > > That was it actually, why I haven't even tested acetic acid/vinegar. > Strong odor, weak acidity and probable cost due to its weakness. > I know some people use vinegar or acetic acid, and if it works for > them that is great , but cost wise, I find SA to be a better choice. > > Sulfamic Acid vs Oxalic Acid > -Oxalic acid is a strong acid (I haven't measured it, wiki says it is > stronger than acetic acid), but SA is stronger, has a ph of 0 -1M 1lt > OA solution requires 126grams of acid. 1M 1lt SA requires 97grams -The > reaction produces water insoluble calcium oxalate crystals inside the > paper. Calcium oxalate is soluble in EDTA. > > Although, oxalic acid is probably the most popular acid recommended > for neutralizing buffer, these crystals are a considerable problem for > processes that does not involve a EDTA wash step. > > These crystals were not noticable with thick papers (CansonMontval > 300gsm or Gvarro 420gsm), but thin hot pressed papers like > FabrianoArtistico TW HP 200gsm and Schoellerschammer 180gsm practically turned to sand-papers. > Especially after coating new cyanotype, I think the crystals become > more pronounced (may be from the oxalate in new cyanotype chemistry, > just a wild guess). So, OA treated thin hot pressed papers became > useless IMO, and not just for new cyanotype or argyrotype. As long as > there are crystals on the surface it is useless for any process. > > The prints had satisfactory dmax, although the surface of the paper > was filled with tiny white crystals. But the Dmax with new cyanotype > on 200 gsm FATW HP and on CansonMontval were not good as the dmax I > got with sulfamic acid. I must mention FATW HP is a quite a poor > performer among all the papers I have tested even with VDB (before and > after SA treatment). But the actual problem was the presence of shiny > white crystals poking out from the paper. > > > Considering all these, > I had best dmax with sulfamic acid treatment for new cyanotype, argyortype. > There is a slight increase in dmax with VDB too and shift in color > towards cooler maronish browns. > There is no insoluble byproduct in paper, no nasty odor. It has strong > acidity and it is cheap. It can be stored indefinetely in powder form > and it has a great capacity (1M 3lt would neutralize 45 full sheets). > > These are the reasons why I considered sulfamic acid to be a better > choice of acid for paper acidification. > > > P.S. Feel free to correct me, I have written a lot of chemistry stuff > and I am quite a newbie at such things. > > Best Regards, > Serdar > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From workshops at polychrome.nl Sun May 5 20:01:59 2013 From: workshops at polychrome.nl (Kees Brandenburg) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 22:01:59 +0200 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification In-Reply-To: <0d2c01ce49ca$24dc1e70$6e945b50$@gmail.com> References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com> <8591E99F-8EDD-4929-B52E-B1551A0FA9EB@gmail.com> <0d2a01ce49c4$510f7bf0$f32e73d0$@gmail.com> <23E55CD8-B287-4C45-B830-DE3DC878D360@clayharmon.com> <0d2c01ce49ca$24dc1e70$6e945b50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <22903D8F-0B87-42DD-8383-44B9AC1040D9@polychrome.nl> And it would be a miracle gift if it also could clear DAS-carbon and DAS-casein! Kees On 5 mei 2013, at 21:52, Serdar Bilici wrote: > Hi Clay, > > I am very glad if it helps. Please inform us about your results. I am > personally quite curious about how SA performs with other papers and > processes. :) > > There was a similar question in APUG too, the possibility of sulfamic acid > as clearing agent. I have no idea, I don't do any of the processes that > requires an iron clearing step. But I learned this when searched for > information on sulfamic acid. SA is iron ligand, it forms water soluble > calcium and iron(3) salts, I have no idea if that is a plus or a problem in > terms of clearing the print. > > > Regards, > Serdar From noisy at rogers.com Sun May 5 20:04:20 2013 From: noisy at rogers.com (Ian Hooper) Date: Sun, 05 May 2013 16:04:20 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification In-Reply-To: References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com> <8591E99F-8EDD-4929-B52E-B1551A0FA9EB@gmail.com> <0d2a01ce49c4$510f7bf0$f32e73d0$@gmail.com> <23E55CD8-B287-4C45-B830-DE3DC878D360@clayharmon.com> Message-ID: <5186BB44.8020209@rogers.com> Probably not good for any silver processes. Silver sulfamate is soluble. On 05/05/2013 3:52 PM, Jeremy Moore wrote: > Clay, I was wondering the same thing about using it as a clearing bath. > Please report back if you test it. It's always great to reduce the number > of chemicals we need to keep on hand! > > - Jeremy > > > From sbilici at gmail.com Sun May 5 20:09:52 2013 From: sbilici at gmail.com (Serdar Bilici) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 23:09:52 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification In-Reply-To: <5186BB44.8020209@rogers.com> References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com> <8591E99F-8EDD-4929-B52E-B1551A0FA9EB@gmail.com> <0d2a01ce49c4$510f7bf0$f32e73d0$@gmail.com> <23E55CD8-B287-4C45-B830-DE3DC878D360@clayharmon.com> <5186BB44.8020209@rogers.com> Message-ID: <0d2e01ce49cc$81b657d0$85230770$@gmail.com> Hi Jeremy, Definitely not good. I tried initial wash for VDB and Argyrotype with SA instead of citric acid. The prints bleached even in %0,1 SA solution. BTW it is great for initial wash with new cyanotype. I do 1min %1 Sulfamic acid wash initially instead of citric acid, it is so much better than citric acid. Regards Serdar -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Ian Hooper Sent: 05 May?s 2013 Pazar 23:04 To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification Probably not good for any silver processes. Silver sulfamate is soluble. On 05/05/2013 3:52 PM, Jeremy Moore wrote: > Clay, I was wondering the same thing about using it as a clearing bath. > Please report back if you test it. It's always great to reduce the > number of chemicals we need to keep on hand! > > - Jeremy > > > _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From alt.photosbyjeremy at gmail.com Sun May 5 20:11:35 2013 From: alt.photosbyjeremy at gmail.com (Jeremy Moore) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 15:11:35 -0500 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification In-Reply-To: <0d2e01ce49cc$81b657d0$85230770$@gmail.com> References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com> <8591E99F-8EDD-4929-B52E-B1551A0FA9EB@gmail.com> <0d2a01ce49c4$510f7bf0$f32e73d0$@gmail.com> <23E55CD8-B287-4C45-B830-DE3DC878D360@clayharmon.com> <5186BB44.8020209@rogers.com> <0d2e01ce49cc$81b657d0$85230770$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Serdar, I mean to use it for platinum/palladium clearing, which can be done with HCL as Clay mentioned. I won't have time to pick any up and test it before I head out of town this week, though :/ On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Serdar Bilici wrote: > Hi Jeremy, > > Definitely not good. I tried initial wash for VDB and Argyrotype with SA > instead of citric acid. > The prints bleached even in %0,1 SA solution. > > BTW it is great for initial wash with new cyanotype. I do 1min %1 Sulfamic > acid wash initially instead of citric acid, it is so much better than > citric > acid. > > Regards > Serdar > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf > Of > Ian Hooper > Sent: 05 May?s 2013 Pazar 23:04 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification > > Probably not good for any silver processes. Silver sulfamate is soluble. > > On 05/05/2013 3:52 PM, Jeremy Moore wrote: > > Clay, I was wondering the same thing about using it as a clearing bath. > > Please report back if you test it. It's always great to reduce the > > number of chemicals we need to keep on hand! > > > > - Jeremy > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > From sbilici at gmail.com Sun May 5 20:14:32 2013 From: sbilici at gmail.com (Serdar Bilici) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 23:14:32 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification In-Reply-To: References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com> <8591E99F-8EDD-4929-B52E-B1551A0FA9EB@gmail.com> <0d2a01ce49c4$510f7bf0$f32e73d0$@gmail.com> <23E55CD8-B287-4C45-B830-DE3DC878D360@clayharmon.com> <5186BB44.8020209@rogers.com> <0d2e01ce49cc$81b657d0$85230770$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0d3001ce49cd$2874ce30$795e6a90$@gmail.com> I got it. I am so ignorant in the ways of pt/pd :) -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Moore Sent: 05 May?s 2013 Pazar 23:12 To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification Serdar, I mean to use it for platinum/palladium clearing, which can be done with HCL as Clay mentioned. I won't have time to pick any up and test it before I head out of town this week, though :/ On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Serdar Bilici wrote: > Hi Jeremy, > > Definitely not good. I tried initial wash for VDB and Argyrotype with > SA instead of citric acid. > The prints bleached even in %0,1 SA solution. > > BTW it is great for initial wash with new cyanotype. I do 1min %1 > Sulfamic acid wash initially instead of citric acid, it is so much > better than citric acid. > > Regards > Serdar > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On > Behalf Of Ian Hooper > Sent: 05 May?s 2013 Pazar 23:04 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification > > Probably not good for any silver processes. Silver sulfamate is soluble. > > On 05/05/2013 3:52 PM, Jeremy Moore wrote: > > Clay, I was wondering the same thing about using it as a clearing bath. > > Please report back if you test it. It's always great to reduce the > > number of chemicals we need to keep on hand! > > > > - Jeremy > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From frangst at gmail.com Sun May 5 21:38:48 2013 From: frangst at gmail.com (francis schanberger) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 17:38:48 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: USHIO-FREESTYLE BULB O.K. FOR 26-1KS? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I got the bulb from BulbConnection.com. ------------------------------ *Order detail* - order placed 2010-09-06 15:03:53 *Qty.* *Manufacturer**Mfg. Product Code**Description* *Unit Price* 1Ushio 5000062MHL-1000/1 $36.14 ------------------------------ ------------------------------ *Sub-Total* *36.14**Priority Mail Shipping/Handling* 7.19*Sales Tax* 0.00* Total* *$43.33**PAID via PayPal* *$43.33**Balance Due* *$0.00* On Sun, May 5, 2013 at 3:03 PM, francis schanberger wrote: > Bob, > > I may have used this bulb or something equivalent. It may be related but > at the moment I can't get the 26 1K to ignite the bulb. It did work when I > first got it. > > I'll inspect the fuses but I have no way of evaluating the power supply > circuits. The integrator powers up but that's it. > > > -- > francis schanberger > > www.francisschanberger.com > -- francis schanberger www.francisschanberger.com From ender100 at aol.com Mon May 6 00:29:07 2013 From: ender100 at aol.com (Nelson Mark) Date: Sun, 5 May 2013 19:29:07 -0500 Subject: [Alt-photo] Photopolymer Gravure & Precision Digital Positives Workshop in New Hampshire In-Reply-To: References: <0bd601cd9020$f6ce2270$e46a6750$@aandy.org> Message-ID: Photopolymer Gravure & Precision Digital Negatives with Paul Taylor and Mark Nelson June 1, 2, 3, 4, 2013 Traditional copper plate photogravure has long been recognized as a printmaking medium that produces beautiful, rich prints prized for their unique tonalities, textures, and depth. In recent years some printmakers have been working with photopolymer plates that are directly exposed with UV light, developed in water, and inked and printed much like copper plates to achieve similar results. This four day intensive workshop is presented by two masters of printmaking, Paul Taylor and Mark Nelson, each offering students their specialized expertise in various aspects of this process. All students will receive a free Precision Digital Negatives Aquatint Screen. Workshop Details Mark will cover the plate making process with his unique approach to the double exposure method, which produces plates with incredibly long tonal range (rivaling palladium), sharp detail, and very smooth prints. This method produces highly predictable results, eliminating the struggle over how to properly expose photopolymer plates. Just wait until you see what these plates can really do! Mark has adapted the Precision Digital Negatives System to making Precision Digital Positives which produce beautiful plates with very fine control of highlights and shadows! Paul will cover the printmaking process. This will include inks, ink preparation and conditioning, applying ink to the plate and wiping the plate. Paul will also cover printmaking papers, preparing the paper for printing and how to finish prints. Students will learn about adjusting presses and blankets and a variety of unique printing methods including, chine colle, oil rolls, tissue printing, and print varnishing. Location: Renaissance Press, 2 Ashuelot Main Street. Ashuelot, New Hampshire Please contact Mark Nelson at ender100 at aol.com for more information or to register for the workshop. Happy Printing! Mark & Paul www.precisiondigitalnegatives.com Best Wishes, Mark Nelson Welcome to the Precision Digital Negatives Home! PDNPrint : Precision Digital Negatives Forum Mark I. Nelson Photography - Welcome From emanphoto at gmail.com Mon May 6 04:33:42 2013 From: emanphoto at gmail.com (eric nelson) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 11:33:42 +0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] The Fotokemika Project Message-ID: Some folks trying to preserve and revive the Efke factory. http://thefotokemikaproject.wordpress.com/ e From mail at loris.medici.name Mon May 6 08:14:48 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 11:14:48 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification In-Reply-To: <055C0EC2-779E-4D0F-A8B5-9A3A48090961@gmail.com> References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com> <055C0EC2-779E-4D0F-A8B5-9A3A48090961@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Christina, Really, Argyrotype is so nicer when you make it work. Currently, I'm doing gold-thiourea toned Argyrotypes, and the Dmax I can get (with just one coat unlike Vandyke) is equal to pop Pd (Ziatype), and the toned images have a quite complex and pleasing hue / split tone. BTW, I'm using Masa for Argyrotypes: 0.25ml per 10 sq. in. + 1 drop 5% Tween 20 per ml of sensitizer hit the nail for this paper; easy application, no bleeding, no staining, and a very strong image... It's nice to hear that acetic acid also worked well for you guys, could be useful when you don't have sulfamic on hands. (I happen to not like its odour too...) Wow! Thanks for the hot water tip, that's a nice one. Noted... Thanks! (You can be sure I'll pass this information if I ever encounter someone who wants to do Vandykes in the future...) Regards, Loris. 2013/5/5 Christina Anderson > > Loris, > I hear you, about VDB and argyrotype. > I switch back and forth between the two processes every semester. Last year > I had a bunch of papers that I distributed to the students that were "good for alt" > and they were not good for argyrotype. Very disappointing. > On a side note, this year I went to mix argyrotype for the next day's lab and did > not have a key ingredient on hand so the morning of the lab I mixed up a batch > of VDB, praying that there would be no problem since it was a fresh solution. > There was no problem. Excellent prints, no paper troubles with no aging of solution. > And no acidfying of paper. I also had to mix it rapidly (and you know how that > goes with VDB, it'll go milky on you with the last additions of silver) but I was using > hot distilled water to mix because the lab was imminent and lo and behold, no > milky solution either. One of those good days where all things worked out well > in a pinch. > Chris > > On May 5, 2013, at 4:51 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > > > Hi Serdar, > > > > The evaluation depends on the process too; for instance, pt/pd is more > > forgiving about the acit pre-treatment operation but new cyanotype and > > argyrotype aren't. A paper treated in HCl would work OK with pt/pd but not > > OK witj new cyanotype or argyrotype. I'm personally more interested in the > > latter right now, I wasn't printing argyrotype much because it was more > > demanding (than vandyke) about paper, now that I make it work with many > > papers, I'm about to dump vandyke forever in favour of argyrotype... > > Sulfamic acid pre-treatment made quite difference for me, because when it > > works (or you make it work with sulfamic acid), I find argyrotype being a > > lot better than vandyke in every aspect. (Dmax, tonal range and smoothness, > > hue...) > > > > Regards, > > Loris. From mail at loris.medici.name Mon May 6 08:20:26 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 11:20:26 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification In-Reply-To: <23E55CD8-B287-4C45-B830-DE3DC878D360@clayharmon.com> References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com> <8591E99F-8EDD-4929-B52E-B1551A0FA9EB@gmail.com> <0d2a01ce49c4$510f7bf0$f32e73d0$@gmail.com> <23E55CD8-B287-4C45-B830-DE3DC878D360@clayharmon.com> Message-ID: Ditto, thanks Serdar, that was a thorough comparison. Let us know how it goes Clay... Regards, Loris. 2013/5/5 clay at clayharmon.com > > Serdar, > > Thanks for this comprehensive summary. You can be sure I am going to use this for my next batch of paper that needs to be acidified. > ... From mail at loris.medici.name Mon May 6 08:29:55 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 11:29:55 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: gum tip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nice tip Christina, good to know. OTOH it makes me nervous; I thought hardened and dried gum was quite strong. Does this work with most pigment? We are all students at different levels. There are times that one knows too much; it can obstruct the way to creativity. Can't speak for all, but in my case, I find students are usually more creative than the instructor... ;) Good luck with FoO prints. Regards, Loris. 2013/5/5 Christina Anderson > Dear List, > > Too busy a semester to post but relief is now in sight, with summer! > > I wanted to share a student tip on gum. If you go to the URL below, there > is a print that Jordyn Wohler did. She shared that she was able to erase a > gum layer with a white eraser (like a Mars Staedtler) after it was DRY. You > can see from this image, she was doing so between the flowers so you can > see how complex that would be. Like the Jack Brubaker Scotch Brite pad tip, > this is now the Jordyn Wohler tip. > > Also at the same URL is a casein print, only the second or third, done by > another student, Sara Kremer. I taught gum as usual this year but am now > introducing casein in the second week of gum (they have 4 weeks on gum, > which I find really gives them time to learn the process) so they can > choose to do one or both and compare. I mix up a batch of casein and have > it in the dimroom for them and they tend to think it is "just another > colloid" like gum, which it is and...isn't. Sara's first print of a peacock > in casein was also lovely. > > http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=1953 > > Student successes are what makes teaching so worthwhile! > > This week I get to finally get back in the dimroom and do some Family of > Origin in casein. Very excited! > > Chris > > > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > From jacqueskv at gmail.com Mon May 6 09:29:23 2013 From: jacqueskv at gmail.com (Jacques Kevers) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 11:29:23 +0200 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: The Fotokemika Project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In so far I understand, the initiative is meant to preserve the facilities as a museum, not to maintain an actual manufacturing activity... Jacques 2013/5/6 eric nelson > Some folks trying to preserve and revive the Efke factory. > http://thefotokemikaproject.wordpress.com/ > e > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > From christinazanderson at gmail.com Mon May 6 14:24:10 2013 From: christinazanderson at gmail.com (Christina Anderson) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 08:24:10 -0600 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: gum tip In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <536ADD3A-CBAE-4C82-AA99-9EDCAFB4D210@gmail.com> Loris, Yes, I was quite surprised by this eraser tip. I have never tried it and don't know why it works! If I want to remove a gum layer it has been with the Scotch Brite pad (this kind of dark green scratchy 1/4" thin pad). I always learn from my students. They ask me questions all the time I have no answers for and I tell them to find out for me! I used to worry that I didn't have enough time to teach them everything I wanted them to know but have since found out that left to their own devices they will make beautiful discoveries I can never imagine. The only common denominator--the ONLY one--I have found to exist with my students who do the best gum work is time. The old Nike slogan of "Just Do It." That's why I find workshops really helpful, e.g. the Photographer's Formulary. There are no distractions and one can work on gum from 9AM to 9PM all week long, while being fed. No life worries, just gum printing. I figure about 60 hours of solid work. Wouldn't it be cool if college could be organized like this??? I got a funny lesson in "just doing it" though, the other day while making a casein print. I had used some sodium carbonate in a tray of water to speed along a recalcitrant print, and decided to add some very hot water to help it even further. The whole layer, with the alkalinity and hot water, whooshed off! So I imagine that would be an even quicker trip with a gum print being that gum is much less hardy than casein. I use hot water development with casein all the time but never have used the two in combination. The good thing: I didn't waste paper, just dried it and used it again. FofO prints coming along nicely! 17 images, 51 negatives, red and yellow layers so far. I have a time schedule of Wednesday to finish 10 so I'm quite...inspired...or perhaps a forced death march. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On May 6, 2013, at 2:29 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > Nice tip Christina, good to know. OTOH it makes me nervous; I thought > hardened and dried gum was quite strong. Does this work with most pigment? > > We are all students at different levels. There are times that one knows too > much; it can obstruct the way to creativity. Can't speak for all, but in my > case, I find students are usually more creative than the instructor... ;) > > Good luck with FoO prints. > > Regards, > Loris. > > > > 2013/5/5 Christina Anderson > >> Dear List, >> >> Too busy a semester to post but relief is now in sight, with summer! >> >> I wanted to share a student tip on gum. If you go to the URL below, there >> is a print that Jordyn Wohler did. She shared that she was able to erase a >> gum layer with a white eraser (like a Mars Staedtler) after it was DRY. You >> can see from this image, she was doing so between the flowers so you can >> see how complex that would be. Like the Jack Brubaker Scotch Brite pad tip, >> this is now the Jordyn Wohler tip. >> >> Also at the same URL is a casein print, only the second or third, done by >> another student, Sara Kremer. I taught gum as usual this year but am now >> introducing casein in the second week of gum (they have 4 weeks on gum, >> which I find really gives them time to learn the process) so they can >> choose to do one or both and compare. I mix up a batch of casein and have >> it in the dimroom for them and they tend to think it is "just another >> colloid" like gum, which it is and...isn't. Sara's first print of a peacock >> in casein was also lovely. >> >> http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=1953 >> >> Student successes are what makes teaching so worthwhile! >> >> This week I get to finally get back in the dimroom and do some Family of >> Origin in casein. Very excited! >> >> Chris >> >> >> >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From christinazanderson at gmail.com Mon May 6 14:37:56 2013 From: christinazanderson at gmail.com (Christina Anderson) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 08:37:56 -0600 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification In-Reply-To: References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com> <055C0EC2-779E-4D0F-A8B5-9A3A48090961@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9759D9B2-0DDA-48AE-B156-B25AE83C1D32@gmail.com> Loris, You are right about argyrotype. Next year I am thinking of introducing kallitype and therefore rotating those three. It might be a great precursor to pt/pd. I usually teach BW calibration, then cyanotype, then VDB or argyrotype, pt/pd and combination printing, and then gum/casein. So the semester is a little full. Next year I am cutting BW because the class is 4 credits but it behaves too much like 5. BUT, if Dan Burkholder is reading this: I had bought Dan's video of pt/pd over gold leaf, thinking I'd introduce it as just an idea, the second to last class of the semester. Sort of a "this is what you can do in the future" class. WELL, at least five of my class tried it and THREE did it for their final project! And then they recommended I should introduce it during the pt/pd section of the class! Gees.So obviously the video is inspiring! Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On May 6, 2013, at 2:14 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > Hi Christina, > > Really, Argyrotype is so nicer when you make it work. Currently, I'm doing > gold-thiourea toned Argyrotypes, and the Dmax I can get (with just one coat > unlike Vandyke) is equal to pop Pd (Ziatype), and the toned images have a > quite complex and pleasing hue / split tone. BTW, I'm using Masa for > Argyrotypes: 0.25ml per 10 sq. in. + 1 drop 5% Tween 20 per ml of > sensitizer hit the nail for this paper; easy application, no bleeding, no > staining, and a very strong image... > > It's nice to hear that acetic acid also worked well for you guys, could be > useful when you don't have sulfamic on hands. (I happen to not like its > odour too...) > > Wow! Thanks for the hot water tip, that's a nice one. Noted... Thanks! (You > can be sure I'll pass this information if I ever encounter someone who > wants to do Vandykes in the future...) > > Regards, > Loris. > > > 2013/5/5 Christina Anderson >> >> Loris, >> I hear you, about VDB and argyrotype. >> I switch back and forth between the two processes every semester. Last > year >> I had a bunch of papers that I distributed to the students that were > "good for alt" >> and they were not good for argyrotype. Very disappointing. >> On a side note, this year I went to mix argyrotype for the next day's lab > and did >> not have a key ingredient on hand so the morning of the lab I mixed up a > batch >> of VDB, praying that there would be no problem since it was a fresh > solution. >> There was no problem. Excellent prints, no paper troubles with no aging > of solution. >> And no acidfying of paper. I also had to mix it rapidly (and you know how > that >> goes with VDB, it'll go milky on you with the last additions of silver) > but I was using >> hot distilled water to mix because the lab was imminent and lo and > behold, no >> milky solution either. One of those good days where all things worked out > well >> in a pinch. >> Chris >> >> On May 5, 2013, at 4:51 AM, Loris Medici wrote: >> >>> Hi Serdar, >>> >>> The evaluation depends on the process too; for instance, pt/pd is more >>> forgiving about the acit pre-treatment operation but new cyanotype and >>> argyrotype aren't. A paper treated in HCl would work OK with pt/pd but > not >>> OK witj new cyanotype or argyrotype. I'm personally more interested in > the >>> latter right now, I wasn't printing argyrotype much because it was more >>> demanding (than vandyke) about paper, now that I make it work with many >>> papers, I'm about to dump vandyke forever in favour of argyrotype... >>> Sulfamic acid pre-treatment made quite difference for me, because when > it >>> works (or you make it work with sulfamic acid), I find argyrotype being > a >>> lot better than vandyke in every aspect. (Dmax, tonal range and > smoothness, >>> hue...) >>> >>> Regards, >>> Loris. > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From greg.mikol at ieee.org Mon May 6 15:22:33 2013 From: greg.mikol at ieee.org (Greg Mikol) Date: Mon, 06 May 2013 08:22:33 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: USHIO-FREESTYLE BULB O.K. FOR 26-1KS? Message-ID: <5187CAB9.7050102@ieee.org> NuArc specifies different bulbs for the 26-1K and 26-1Ks. The Ushio and Freestyle bulbs are the GW114 bulb type, designed for the 26-1K. The 26-1Ks (and my NL22) use the NP80 bulb, which is ridiculously expensive. Though I was able to find a replacement for $140...I'll have to check where. My understanding is that the "chemistry" of the bulbs is different, and as a result, might require different voltages to start/run, so the ballasts might be different. That would either mean the bulb wouldn't start (voltage too low), or could be over-volted, risking rupture of the capsule (which has a small amount of mercury in it, AFAIK). M&R, who owns NuArc, I've found has responsive customer service. http://www.mrprint.com/en/CustomerService.aspx They sent me the wiring diagram for my NL22 when it wouldn't light, and I was able to get it sorted. You could always ask them (and please let the rest of us know). Are the NP80 and GW114 bulbs the same dimensions? Best of luck... --Greg > DEAR LIST, > I think this is on topic because I use my 26-1KS > Metal Halide plate burner exclusively for making alt photo > prints; cyano, pt/pd, salt, & albumen. > A while back someone pointed out the Ushio MHL1000/1 > Nuarc GW114 Plate Burner Bulb (metal halide) available > from Freestyle (about $50) as a much less expensive > alternative to the metal halide replacement bulb (about > $170) made for my plate burner. However, this Ushio bulb > is rated at 1200 W and the manufacturer's recommended bulb > is 800 w. That is a 50% increase in power draw and I > suspect it would at least blow fuses in the burner if not > fry some of the bulb power supply circuits. > Has anyone *personally* (as opposed to anecdotal > "knowledge") successfully used the Ushio bulb in their > 26-1KS Metal Halide plate burner? > CHEERS! > BOB From pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca Mon May 6 19:43:24 2013 From: pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca (Peter Friedrichsen) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 15:43:24 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Editioning of Alternative process prints Message-ID: Just wondering if there is a convention for editioning of alt prints? There must be some differences in how this is approached because prints made from the same negative(s) are going vary from one to the next due to all the variables that we can only control to some degree in a hand-made process. I have seen references to the use of "Edition Variee" to emphasize that a series of prints may vary in appearance from one to the next. Anyone care to comment on what they think may be the most appropriate form? Peter Friedrichsen From creatrix3 at gmail.com Mon May 6 19:58:25 2013 From: creatrix3 at gmail.com (Suzanne Steel) Date: Mon, 6 May 2013 12:58:25 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Editioning of Alternative process prints In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7B9B066A-F0F8-46CF-AAC4-1D0F26F55AD3@gmail.com> Hello Peter, Yes I went through exactly the same questions and conundrums last year when preparing to exhibit a new set of cyanotypes in a local gallery. I considered using the EV convention, but decided against it. I decided that every image will be an original because I overpaint each print with watercolors and metallic pigments. Instead of using LE or EV, I went with providing a certificate of authenticity for each print, which clearly states that one negative might produce multiple prints, but that each is a unique original, and gave the reasons why. I also included a photo of the print itself on the certificate. You can see the set of images here; http://www.hotsteeldesign.com/danceart/cyanotypes/index.html Hope that helps, Suzanne Steel On May 6, 2013, at 12:43 PM, Peter Friedrichsen wrote: Just wondering if there is a convention for editioning of alt prints? There must be some differences in how this is approached because prints made from the same negative(s) are going vary from one to the next due to all the variables that we can only control to some degree in a hand-made process. I have seen references to the use of "Edition Variee" to emphasize that a series of prints may vary in appearance from one to the next. Anyone care to comment on what they think may be the most appropriate form? Peter Friedrichsen _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Tue May 7 13:31:59 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 16:31:59 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: gum tip In-Reply-To: <536ADD3A-CBAE-4C82-AA99-9EDCAFB4D210@gmail.com> References: <536ADD3A-CBAE-4C82-AA99-9EDCAFB4D210@gmail.com> Message-ID: Indeed, doing it continuously and especially in a group environment is the most productive and beneficial method of learning, it's like being able to do tens of experiments simultaneously, and it's FUN! Quite a schedule you have there, may it be easy! Regards, Loris. 2013/5/6 Christina Anderson > > Loris, > Yes, I was quite surprised by this eraser tip. I have never tried it and don't know why it works! If I want to remove a gum layer it has been with the Scotch Brite pad (this kind of dark green scratchy 1/4" thin pad). > > I always learn from my students. They ask me questions all the time I have no answers for and I tell them to find out for me! I used to worry that I didn't have enough time to teach them everything I wanted them to know but have since found out that left to their own devices they will make beautiful discoveries I can never imagine. The only common denominator--the ONLY one--I have found to exist with my students who do the best gum work is time. The old Nike slogan of "Just Do It." That's why I find workshops really helpful, e.g. the Photographer's Formulary. There are no distractions and one can work on gum from 9AM to 9PM all week long, while being fed. No life worries, just gum printing. I figure about 60 hours of solid work. Wouldn't it be cool if college could be organized like this??? > > I got a funny lesson in "just doing it" though, the other day while making a casein print. I had used some sodium carbonate in a tray of water to speed along a recalcitrant print, and decided to add some very hot water to help it even further. The whole layer, with the alkalinity and hot water, whooshed off! So I imagine that would be an even quicker trip with a gum print being that gum is much less hardy than casein. I use hot water development with casein all the time but never have used the two in combination. The good thing: I didn't waste paper, just dried it and used it again. > > FofO prints coming along nicely! 17 images, 51 negatives, red and yellow layers so far. I have a time schedule of Wednesday to finish 10 so I'm quite...inspired...or perhaps a forced death march. > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > On May 6, 2013, at 2:29 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > >> Nice tip Christina, good to know. OTOH it makes me nervous; I thought >> hardened and dried gum was quite strong. Does this work with most pigment? >> >> We are all students at different levels. There are times that one knows too >> much; it can obstruct the way to creativity. Can't speak for all, but in my >> case, I find students are usually more creative than the instructor... ;) >> >> Good luck with FoO prints. >> >> Regards, >> Loris. From mail at loris.medici.name Tue May 7 13:40:50 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 16:40:50 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Sulfamic Acid for Paper Acidification In-Reply-To: <9759D9B2-0DDA-48AE-B156-B25AE83C1D32@gmail.com> References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com> <055C0EC2-779E-4D0F-A8B5-9A3A48090961@gmail.com> <9759D9B2-0DDA-48AE-B156-B25AE83C1D32@gmail.com> Message-ID: Do you include toning w/ VDB and/or Argyrotype? Since you're also doing Pt/Pd the price for the toner would mind perhaps? Those Pt/Pd over gold leaf are really gorgeous, I would imagine they are great sellers - since everybody can understand / relate to that. It's sometimes hard to explain laymen (Or should it be laypeople, for the sake of being politically correct? - That was a Siegel-esque joke BTW...) that the images are formed and/or toned by precious metals salts, since the color doesn't fit to their understanding of the particular metal in question... Regards, Loris. 2013/5/6 Christina Anderson > > Loris, > You are right about argyrotype. Next year I am thinking of introducing kallitype and therefore rotating those three. It might be a great precursor to pt/pd. > > I usually teach BW calibration, then cyanotype, then VDB or argyrotype, pt/pd and combination printing, and then gum/casein. So the semester is a little full. Next year I am cutting BW because the class is 4 credits but it behaves too much like 5. BUT, if Dan Burkholder is reading this: I had bought Dan's video of pt/pd over gold leaf, thinking I'd introduce it as just an idea, the second to last class of the semester. Sort of a "this is what you can do in the future" class. WELL, at least five of my class tried it and THREE did it for their final project! And then they recommended I should introduce it during the pt/pd section of the class! Gees.So obviously the video is inspiring! > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > On May 6, 2013, at 2:14 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > > > Hi Christina, > > > > Really, Argyrotype is so nicer when you make it work. Currently, I'm doing > > gold-thiourea toned Argyrotypes, and the Dmax I can get (with just one coat > > unlike Vandyke) is equal to pop Pd (Ziatype), and the toned images have a > > quite complex and pleasing hue / split tone. BTW, I'm using Masa for > > Argyrotypes: 0.25ml per 10 sq. in. + 1 drop 5% Tween 20 per ml of > > sensitizer hit the nail for this paper; easy application, no bleeding, no > > staining, and a very strong image... > > > > It's nice to hear that acetic acid also worked well for you guys, could be > > useful when you don't have sulfamic on hands. (I happen to not like its > > odour too...) > > > > Wow! Thanks for the hot water tip, that's a nice one. Noted... Thanks! (You > > can be sure I'll pass this information if I ever encounter someone who > > wants to do Vandykes in the future...) > > > > Regards, > > Loris. From christinazanderson at gmail.com Tue May 7 14:02:13 2013 From: christinazanderson at gmail.com (Christina Anderson) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 08:02:13 -0600 Subject: [Alt-photo] Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf In-Reply-To: References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com> <055C0EC2-779E-4D0F-A8B5-9A3A48090961@gmail.com> <9759D9B2-0DDA-48AE-B156-B25AE83C1D32@gmail.com> Message-ID: Loris, I don't do gold toner, that's on their own dime. I create bulk supplies for cyano, vdb or argro, casein and gum because it is much cheaper and easier that way. They are on their own for their pt/pd kit and any other process they want to try. I think the initial purchase of gold toner is a bit prohibitive for them after purchasing the pt/pd kit, paper, and Pictorico! The pt/pd over gold leaf is really exquisite. They did gold, copper, silver. The biggest problem for them was the wrinkling of the vellum but one student mastered it beautifully. Very exquisite tree shadows on buildings at night, 5x5 squares in 8-ply mats. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On May 7, 2013, at 7:40 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > Do you include toning w/ VDB and/or Argyrotype? Since you're also doing > Pt/Pd the price for the toner would mind perhaps? > > Those Pt/Pd over gold leaf are really gorgeous, I would imagine they are > great sellers - since everybody can understand / relate to that. It's > sometimes hard to explain laymen (Or should it be laypeople, for the sake > of being politically correct? - That was a Siegel-esque joke BTW...) that > the images are formed and/or toned by precious metals salts, since the > color doesn't fit to their understanding of the particular metal in > question... > > Regards, > Loris. > > > 2013/5/6 Christina Anderson >> >> Loris, >> You are right about argyrotype. Next year I am thinking of introducing > kallitype and therefore rotating those three. It might be a great precursor > to pt/pd. >> >> I usually teach BW calibration, then cyanotype, then VDB or argyrotype, > pt/pd and combination printing, and then gum/casein. So the semester is a > little full. Next year I am cutting BW because the class is 4 credits but > it behaves too much like 5. BUT, if Dan Burkholder is reading this: I had > bought Dan's video of pt/pd over gold leaf, thinking I'd introduce it as > just an idea, the second to last class of the semester. Sort of a "this is > what you can do in the future" class. WELL, at least five of my class tried > it and THREE did it for their final project! And then they recommended I > should introduce it during the pt/pd section of the class! Gees.So > obviously the video is inspiring! >> Chris >> >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> >> On May 6, 2013, at 2:14 AM, Loris Medici wrote: >> >>> Hi Christina, >>> >>> Really, Argyrotype is so nicer when you make it work. Currently, I'm > doing >>> gold-thiourea toned Argyrotypes, and the Dmax I can get (with just one > coat >>> unlike Vandyke) is equal to pop Pd (Ziatype), and the toned images have > a >>> quite complex and pleasing hue / split tone. BTW, I'm using Masa for >>> Argyrotypes: 0.25ml per 10 sq. in. + 1 drop 5% Tween 20 per ml of >>> sensitizer hit the nail for this paper; easy application, no bleeding, > no >>> staining, and a very strong image... >>> >>> It's nice to hear that acetic acid also worked well for you guys, could > be >>> useful when you don't have sulfamic on hands. (I happen to not like its >>> odour too...) >>> >>> Wow! Thanks for the hot water tip, that's a nice one. Noted... Thanks! > (You >>> can be sure I'll pass this information if I ever encounter someone who >>> wants to do Vandykes in the future...) >>> >>> Regards, >>> Loris. > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Tue May 7 14:12:18 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 17:12:18 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf In-Reply-To: References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com> <055C0EC2-779E-4D0F-A8B5-9A3A48090961@gmail.com> <9759D9B2-0DDA-48AE-B156-B25AE83C1D32@gmail.com> Message-ID: I see, OTOH 1g gold chloride would make 2000ml gold-thiourea toner which is pretty workable (in a use and discard regime) by diluting 1+2 or 1+3. About 60-150ml diluted toner would suffice for prints sized between 5x7" to 11x14", in flat bottomed trays. I should find a vellum that works locally, haven't succeeded in that so far, but I haven't looked hard enough. Regards, Loris. 2013/5/7 Christina Anderson > > Loris, > I don't do gold toner, that's on their own dime. I create bulk supplies for cyano, vdb or argro, casein and gum because it is much cheaper and easier that way. They are on their own for their pt/pd kit and any other process they want to try. I think the initial purchase of gold toner is a bit prohibitive for them after purchasing the pt/pd kit, paper, and Pictorico! > > The pt/pd over gold leaf is really exquisite. They did gold, copper, silver. The biggest problem for them was the wrinkling of the vellum but one student mastered it beautifully. Very exquisite tree shadows on buildings at night, 5x5 squares in 8-ply mats. > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > On May 7, 2013, at 7:40 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > > > Do you include toning w/ VDB and/or Argyrotype? Since you're also doing > > Pt/Pd the price for the toner would mind perhaps? > > > > Those Pt/Pd over gold leaf are really gorgeous, I would imagine they are > > great sellers - since everybody can understand / relate to that. It's > > sometimes hard to explain laymen (Or should it be laypeople, for the sake > > of being politically correct? - That was a Siegel-esque joke BTW...) that > > the images are formed and/or toned by precious metals salts, since the > > color doesn't fit to their understanding of the particular metal in > > question... > > > > Regards, > > Loris. From pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca Tue May 7 14:50:50 2013 From: pfriedrichsen at sympatico.ca (Peter Friedrichsen) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 10:50:50 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Editioning of Alternative process prints In-Reply-To: <7B9B066A-F0F8-46CF-AAC4-1D0F26F55AD3@gmail.com> References: <7B9B066A-F0F8-46CF-AAC4-1D0F26F55AD3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Suzanne, Thanks so much for the useful feedback. I reviewed your interesting work on your site and it does make sense to me that each one would be considered original. Your overpainting would certainly move the final work of art further from the original image. I guess the question remains however, as to what degree of manipulation is reasonable in order for a print to be considered original vs editioned. Is it the color scheme, additional overlayers, size, type of paper, variations in brush marks of an emulsion etc... Peter Friedrichsen At 03:58 PM 06/05/2013, you wrote: >Hello Peter, > >Yes I went through exactly the same questions and conundrums last >year when preparing to exhibit a new set of cyanotypes in a local >gallery. I considered using the EV convention, but decided against >it. I decided that every image will be an original because I >overpaint each print with watercolors and metallic pigments. Instead >of using LE or EV, I went with providing a certificate of >authenticity for each print, which clearly states that one negative >might produce multiple prints, but that each is a unique original, >and gave the reasons why. I also included a photo of the print >itself on the certificate. > >You can see the set of images here; >http://www.hotsteeldesign.com/danceart/cyanotypes/index.html > >Hope that helps, >Suzanne Steel > > >On May 6, 2013, at 12:43 PM, Peter Friedrichsen wrote: > >Just wondering if there is a convention for editioning of alt prints? > >There must be some differences in how this is approached because >prints made from the same negative(s) are going vary from one to the >next due to all the variables that we can only control to some >degree in a hand-made process. > >I have seen references to the use of "Edition Variee" to emphasize >that a series of prints may vary in appearance from one to the next. > >Anyone care to comment on what they think may be the most appropriate form? > >Peter Friedrichsen > >_______________________________________________ >Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > >_______________________________________________ >Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From creatrix3 at gmail.com Tue May 7 19:05:33 2013 From: creatrix3 at gmail.com (Suzanne Steel) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 12:05:33 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Editioning of Alternative process prints In-Reply-To: References: <7B9B066A-F0F8-46CF-AAC4-1D0F26F55AD3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Peter, I think the answer to your question is really up to the individual artist. My reasons were 1. Hand painted emulsion brush strokes, and 2. Hand painted embellishment, which would use different colors, and different areas of where paint is applied. I also made a decision to not make giclees at all from any of the works I set apart to sell as originals. I may make new negatives with some of the same elements used in my original compositions, for any giclees or multiple prints of any image. But it will be a new composition and a new treatment. This helps to maintain value for buyers of my originals and keeps me from having to keep track of editions. The waters do get pretty murky in this digital age where reproduction is so easy and cheap. I've done a lot of research on how other artists handle this and have concluded that the amount of effort involved in tracking editions is not worth it anymore. But it's nevertheless a great conversation to continue, to explore the nuances and learn how different artists handle it. Suzanne On May 7, 2013, at 7:50 AM, Peter Friedrichsen wrote: Hi Suzanne, Thanks so much for the useful feedback. I reviewed your interesting work on your site and it does make sense to me that each one would be considered original. Your overpainting would certainly move the final work of art further from the original image. I guess the question remains however, as to what degree of manipulation is reasonable in order for a print to be considered original vs editioned. Is it the color scheme, additional overlayers, size, type of paper, variations in brush marks of an emulsion etc... Peter Friedrichsen At 03:58 PM 06/05/2013, you wrote: > Hello Peter, > > Yes I went through exactly the same questions and conundrums last year when preparing to exhibit a new set of cyanotypes in a local gallery. I considered using the EV convention, but decided against it. I decided that every image will be an original because I overpaint each print with watercolors and metallic pigments. Instead of using LE or EV, I went with providing a certificate of authenticity for each print, which clearly states that one negative might produce multiple prints, but that each is a unique original, and gave the reasons why. I also included a photo of the print itself on the certificate. > > You can see the set of images here; > http://www.hotsteeldesign.com/danceart/cyanotypes/index.html > > Hope that helps, > Suzanne Steel > > > On May 6, 2013, at 12:43 PM, Peter Friedrichsen wrote: > > Just wondering if there is a convention for editioning of alt prints? > > There must be some differences in how this is approached because prints made from the same negative(s) are going vary from one to the next due to all the variables that we can only control to some degree in a hand-made process. > > I have seen references to the use of "Edition Variee" to emphasize that a series of prints may vary in appearance from one to the next. > > Anyone care to comment on what they think may be the most appropriate form? > > Peter Friedrichsen > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From sanking at clemson.edu Tue May 7 21:37:53 2013 From: sanking at clemson.edu (sanking at clemson.edu) Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 17:37:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf In-Reply-To: References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com> <055C0EC2-779E-4D0F-A8B5-9A3A48090961@gmail.com> <9759D9B2-0DDA-48AE-B156-B25AE83C1D32@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46245.75.137.124.157.1367962673.squirrel@localhost> Gold toned vandykes are, in my opinion, the most interesting looking of the iron sensitive alternative prints. The beautiful blue-black look is truly unique in this type of print, and when toned, and processed correctly, the prints are probably as stable as pt/pd prints. These days I do most of my printing with carbon transfer, but for those who might be interested in gold toned vandykes see my article. http://www.sandykingphotography.com/resources/technical-writing/vandyke And toning a print with the minimum solution of a gold-thiourea toner, as Loris describes, is very economical. Sandy > I see, OTOH 1g gold chloride would make 2000ml gold-thiourea toner which > is > pretty workable (in a use and discard regime) by diluting 1+2 or 1+3. > About > 60-150ml diluted toner would suffice for prints sized between 5x7" to > 11x14", in flat bottomed trays. > > I should find a vellum that works locally, haven't succeeded in that so > far, but I haven't looked hard enough. > > Regards, > Loris. > From mail at loris.medici.name Wed May 8 05:34:20 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 08:34:20 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf In-Reply-To: <46245.75.137.124.157.1367962673.squirrel@localhost> References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com> <055C0EC2-779E-4D0F-A8B5-9A3A48090961@gmail.com> <9759D9B2-0DDA-48AE-B156-B25AE83C1D32@gmail.com> <46245.75.137.124.157.1367962673.squirrel@localhost> Message-ID: Diluting the toner slows down the toning action, which makes possible getting beautiful and controllable split tones. Regards, Loris. 2013/5/8 > > Gold toned vandykes are, in my opinion, the most interesting looking of > the iron sensitive alternative prints. The beautiful blue-black look is > truly unique in this type of print, and when toned, and processed > correctly, the prints are probably as stable as pt/pd prints. > > These days I do most of my printing with carbon transfer, but for those > who might be interested in gold toned vandykes see my article. > http://www.sandykingphotography.com/resources/technical-writing/vandyke > > And toning a print with the minimum solution of a gold-thiourea toner, as > Loris describes, is very economical. > > > Sandy > > > > I see, OTOH 1g gold chloride would make 2000ml gold-thiourea toner which > > is > > pretty workable (in a use and discard regime) by diluting 1+2 or 1+3. > > About > > 60-150ml diluted toner would suffice for prints sized between 5x7" to > > 11x14", in flat bottomed trays. > > > > I should find a vellum that works locally, haven't succeeded in that so > > far, but I haven't looked hard enough. > > > > Regards, > > Loris. From workshops at polychrome.nl Wed May 8 11:50:48 2013 From: workshops at polychrome.nl (Kees Brandenburg) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 13:50:48 +0200 Subject: [Alt-photo] DAS from China Message-ID: Hi, I got some offlist questions about the Chinese supplier I found for DAS. Jorj Bauer published this information on the list and that generated some more questions about the company I found. It also appeared that some people had bad experiences with ordering from Chinese companies that turned out to be fraudulent and want to know this company is not. What I found out until now: doing business with Beyond Industries from Shanghai workes fine for me. I found them by googling for worldwide DAS manufacturers and asked for information and prizes. Their sales representative Evan Tseng is very responsive. So I took the risk and ordered 1 kg. The company manufactures the chemical on a regular base. Some details: Product: 4,4'-Diazidostilbene-2,2'-disulfonic acid, disodium salt, tetra hydrate CAS number: CAS 2718-90-3 Company website: http://www.beyondindustriesgroup.com/ Representative: Evan Tseng, contact me offlist for direct e-mail address Payment: has to be done trough Western Union. I did an online credit card payment through westernunion.com. Shipping: Shipping was done through DHL and was very fast. The parcel passed the Netherlands customs unopened, but that's always a risk you have to consider. The powder itself is light sensitive and should not be exposed to (day)light. Packaging: They ship it in a black plastic bag, within a sealed silver bag, within a cardboard box. Current prizes and shipping (quote May 6): "Our latest price for DAS is as below (without shipping): 1Kg: $385/Kg 10Kg: $320/Kg 100Kg: $310/Kg Generally speaking, shipping cost to the US and Canada is a little cheaper than that to EU countries. Take 1Kg sample for example, it's $80 to Netherlands but $70 to the US and Canada. It also depends on weight very much. The more the cheaper. " Risks: The biggest risk I can foresee is to have your package opened at a customs check in full light. DAS works with carbon, casein and some synthetic collo?ds. It does not work with Gum Arabic. kees From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Wed May 8 15:45:03 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 15:45:03 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf In-Reply-To: References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com>, <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it>, <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com>, , <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com>, , <055C0EC2-779E-4D0F-A8B5-9A3A48090961@gmail.com>, , <9759D9B2-0DDA-48AE-B156-B25AE83C1D32@gmail.com>, , , , <46245.75.137.124.157.1367962673.squirrel@localhost>, Message-ID: Loris, Does the argyrotype take that well to the gold toning. WOuld you have some examples to look at? I tried argyrotype years back and it was a disaster, but now I am ready to try it again on acid treated Fabriano soft press that gave me wonderful results with palladium. Marek > Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 08:34:20 +0300 > From: mail at loris.medici.name > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf > > Diluting the toner slows down the toning action, which makes possible > getting beautiful and controllable split tones. > > Regards, > Loris. > > > 2013/5/8 > > > > Gold toned vandykes are, in my opinion, the most interesting looking of > > the iron sensitive alternative prints. The beautiful blue-black look is > > truly unique in this type of print, and when toned, and processed > > correctly, the prints are probably as stable as pt/pd prints. > > > > These days I do most of my printing with carbon transfer, but for those > > who might be interested in gold toned vandykes see my article. > > http://www.sandykingphotography.com/resources/technical-writing/vandyke > > > > And toning a print with the minimum solution of a gold-thiourea toner, as > > Loris describes, is very economical. > > > > > > Sandy > > > > > > > I see, OTOH 1g gold chloride would make 2000ml gold-thiourea toner which > > > is > > > pretty workable (in a use and discard regime) by diluting 1+2 or 1+3. > > > About > > > 60-150ml diluted toner would suffice for prints sized between 5x7" to > > > 11x14", in flat bottomed trays. > > > > > > I should find a vellum that works locally, haven't succeeded in that so > > > far, but I haven't looked hard enough. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Loris. > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From sanking at clemson.edu Wed May 8 17:08:41 2013 From: sanking at clemson.edu (Sandy King) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 13:08:41 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf In-Reply-To: References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com>, <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it>, <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com>, , <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com>, , <055C0EC2-779E-4D0F-A8B5-9A3A48090961@gmail.com>, , <9759D9B2-0DDA-48AE-B156-B25AE83C1D32@gmail.com>, , , , <46245.75.137.124.157.1367962673.squirrel@localhost>, Message-ID: <71E6E27F-EAD8-41B2-B34A-E6C89C9E0D13@clemson.edu> Marek, Gold-toned vandyke and gold-toned argyrotypes have virtually the same look. I have found argyrotype a bit more paper sensitive than vandyke, but the sulfamic acid soak may even the playing field. Sandy On May 8, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Marek Matusz wrote: > Loris, > > Does the argyrotype take that well to the gold toning. WOuld you have some examples to look at? > > I tried argyrotype years back and it was a disaster, but now I am ready to try it again on acid treated Fabriano soft press that gave me wonderful results with palladium. > > Marek > > >> Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 08:34:20 +0300 >> From: mail at loris.medici.name >> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >> Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf >> >> Diluting the toner slows down the toning action, which makes possible >> getting beautiful and controllable split tones. >> >> Regards, >> Loris. >> >> >> 2013/5/8 >>> >>> Gold toned vandykes are, in my opinion, the most interesting looking of >>> the iron sensitive alternative prints. The beautiful blue-black look is >>> truly unique in this type of print, and when toned, and processed >>> correctly, the prints are probably as stable as pt/pd prints. >>> >>> These days I do most of my printing with carbon transfer, but for those >>> who might be interested in gold toned vandykes see my article. >>> http://www.sandykingphotography.com/resources/technical-writing/vandyke >>> >>> And toning a print with the minimum solution of a gold-thiourea toner, as >>> Loris describes, is very economical. >>> >>> >>> Sandy >>> >>> >>>> I see, OTOH 1g gold chloride would make 2000ml gold-thiourea toner which >>>> is >>>> pretty workable (in a use and discard regime) by diluting 1+2 or 1+3. >>>> About >>>> 60-150ml diluted toner would suffice for prints sized between 5x7" to >>>> 11x14", in flat bottomed trays. >>>> >>>> I should find a vellum that works locally, haven't succeeded in that so >>>> far, but I haven't looked hard enough. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Loris. >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From donsbryant at gmail.com Wed May 8 17:12:27 2013 From: donsbryant at gmail.com (Don Bryant) Date: Wed, 08 May 2013 13:12:27 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf Message-ID: I'm not Loris so I apologize for perhaps stealing his thunder, YES! gold toners work great with argyrotype. Thanks to Sam Wang and Sandy King for turning me own to agyrotype printing using the beautiful white paper Lanaquarel acitified with Oxalic acid. Perhaps sulphamic will work even better. Don Bryant Marek Matusz wrote: >Loris, > >Does the argyrotype take that well to the gold toning. WOuld you have some examples to look at? > >I tried argyrotype years back and it was a disaster, but now I am ready to try it again on acid treated Fabriano soft press that gave me wonderful results with palladium. > >Marek > > >> Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 08:34:20 +0300 >> From: mail at loris.medici.name >> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >> Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf >> >> Diluting the toner slows down the toning action, which makes possible >> getting beautiful and controllable split tones. >> >> Regards, >> Loris. >> >> >> 2013/5/8 >> > >> > Gold toned vandykes are, in my opinion, the most interesting looking of >> > the iron sensitive alternative prints. The beautiful blue-black look is >> > truly unique in this type of print, and when toned, and processed >> > correctly, the prints are probably as stable as pt/pd prints. >> > >> > These days I do most of my printing with carbon transfer, but for those >> > who might be interested in gold toned vandykes see my article. >> > http://www.sandykingphotography.com/resources/technical-writing/vandyke >> > >> > And toning a print with the minimum solution of a gold-thiourea toner, as >> > Loris describes, is very economical. >> > >> > >> > Sandy >> > >> > >> > > I see, OTOH 1g gold chloride would make 2000ml gold-thiourea toner which >> > > is >> > > pretty workable (in a use and discard regime) by diluting 1+2 or 1+3. >> > > About >> > > 60-150ml diluted toner would suffice for prints sized between 5x7" to >> > > 11x14", in flat bottomed trays. >> > > >> > > I should find a vellum that works locally, haven't succeeded in that so >> > > far, but I haven't looked hard enough. >> > > >> > > Regards, >> > > Loris. >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > >_______________________________________________ >Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Wed May 8 17:30:59 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 12:30:59 -0500 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf In-Reply-To: <71E6E27F-EAD8-41B2-B34A-E6C89C9E0D13@clemson.edu> References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com> <055C0EC2-779E-4D0F-A8B5-9A3A48090961@gmail.com> <9759D9B2-0DDA-48AE-B156-B25AE83C1D32@gmail.com> <46245.75.137.124.157.1367962673.squirrel@localhost> <71E6E27F-EAD8-41B2-B34A-E6C89C9E0D13@clemson.edu> Message-ID: Sandy I have to add I am amazed at your toned vandykes. Looking at them I said wow! I have to try this. Marek Sent from my iPhone On May 8, 2013, at 12:08 PM, "Sandy King" wrote: > Marek, > > Gold-toned vandyke and gold-toned argyrotypes have virtually the same look. I have found argyrotype a bit more paper sensitive than vandyke, but the sulfamic acid soak may even the playing field. > > Sandy > > > On May 8, 2013, at 11:45 AM, Marek Matusz wrote: > >> Loris, >> >> Does the argyrotype take that well to the gold toning. WOuld you have some examples to look at? >> >> I tried argyrotype years back and it was a disaster, but now I am ready to try it again on acid treated Fabriano soft press that gave me wonderful results with palladium. >> >> Marek >> >> >>> Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 08:34:20 +0300 >>> From: mail at loris.medici.name >>> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >>> Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf >>> >>> Diluting the toner slows down the toning action, which makes possible >>> getting beautiful and controllable split tones. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Loris. >>> >>> >>> 2013/5/8 >>>> >>>> Gold toned vandykes are, in my opinion, the most interesting looking of >>>> the iron sensitive alternative prints. The beautiful blue-black look is >>>> truly unique in this type of print, and when toned, and processed >>>> correctly, the prints are probably as stable as pt/pd prints. >>>> >>>> These days I do most of my printing with carbon transfer, but for those >>>> who might be interested in gold toned vandykes see my article. >>>> http://www.sandykingphotography.com/resources/technical-writing/vandyke >>>> >>>> And toning a print with the minimum solution of a gold-thiourea toner, as >>>> Loris describes, is very economical. >>>> >>>> >>>> Sandy >>>> >>>> >>>>> I see, OTOH 1g gold chloride would make 2000ml gold-thiourea toner which >>>>> is >>>>> pretty workable (in a use and discard regime) by diluting 1+2 or 1+3. >>>>> About >>>>> 60-150ml diluted toner would suffice for prints sized between 5x7" to >>>>> 11x14", in flat bottomed trays. >>>>> >>>>> I should find a vellum that works locally, haven't succeeded in that so >>>>> far, but I haven't looked hard enough. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Loris. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From sanking at clemson.edu Wed May 8 22:36:59 2013 From: sanking at clemson.edu (Sandy King) Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 18:36:59 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Don, Both Sam and I were able to get very high shadow density (Dmax of about log 1.6) using acidified Lanaquarelle with both gold-tone vandyke and argyrotype. Not sure how Sam acidified the paper, but I used a 1.5% solution of oxalic acid, soaking the paper for five minutes. Lanaquarelle is a wonderful paper for this process. Would add that this work was done in late spring, early summer when RH in our work spaces would have typically been around 50%-60%. Sandy On May 8, 2013, at 1:12 PM, Don Bryant wrote: > I'm not Loris so I apologize for perhaps stealing his thunder, YES! gold toners work great with argyrotype. Thanks to Sam Wang and Sandy King for turning me own to agyrotype printing using the beautiful white paper Lanaquarel acitified with Oxalic acid. Perhaps sulphamic will work even better. > > Don Bryant > > Marek Matusz wrote: > >> Loris, >> >> Does the argyrotype take that well to the gold toning. WOuld you have some examples to look at? >> >> I tried argyrotype years back and it was a disaster, but now I am ready to try it again on acid treated Fabriano soft press that gave me wonderful results with palladium. >> >> Marek >> >> >>> Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 08:34:20 +0300 >>> From: mail at loris.medici.name >>> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >>> Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf >>> >>> Diluting the toner slows down the toning action, which makes possible >>> getting beautiful and controllable split tones. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Loris. >>> >>> >>> 2013/5/8 >>>> >>>> Gold toned vandykes are, in my opinion, the most interesting looking of >>>> the iron sensitive alternative prints. The beautiful blue-black look is >>>> truly unique in this type of print, and when toned, and processed >>>> correctly, the prints are probably as stable as pt/pd prints. >>>> >>>> These days I do most of my printing with carbon transfer, but for those >>>> who might be interested in gold toned vandykes see my article. >>>> http://www.sandykingphotography.com/resources/technical-writing/vandyke >>>> >>>> And toning a print with the minimum solution of a gold-thiourea toner, as >>>> Loris describes, is very economical. >>>> >>>> >>>> Sandy >>>> >>>> >>>>> I see, OTOH 1g gold chloride would make 2000ml gold-thiourea toner which >>>>> is >>>>> pretty workable (in a use and discard regime) by diluting 1+2 or 1+3. >>>>> About >>>>> 60-150ml diluted toner would suffice for prints sized between 5x7" to >>>>> 11x14", in flat bottomed trays. >>>>> >>>>> I should find a vellum that works locally, haven't succeeded in that so >>>>> far, but I haven't looked hard enough. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Loris. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Wed May 8 23:53:24 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 02:53:24 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf In-Reply-To: References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com> <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it> <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com> <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com> <055C0EC2-779E-4D0F-A8B5-9A3A48090961@gmail.com> <9759D9B2-0DDA-48AE-B156-B25AE83C1D32@gmail.com> <46245.75.137.124.157.1367962673.squirrel@localhost> Message-ID: Hi Marek, Yes, gold-thiourea toning (I don't do gold-thiocyanate? toning) works great / equally well with Argyrotypes. I just did a split toned print tonight (It's not perfect, I'll have to reprint it. But it's fine enough to show one of the possible results when gold toning Argyrotypes...) see it here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/loris-medici/8720991367/ Regards, Loris. 2013/5/8 Marek Matusz > Loris, > > Does the argyrotype take that well to the gold toning. WOuld you have some > examples to look at? > > I tried argyrotype years back and it was a disaster, but now I am ready to > try it again on acid treated Fabriano soft press that gave me wonderful > results with palladium. > > Marek > > > > Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 08:34:20 +0300 > > From: mail at loris.medici.name > > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf > > > > Diluting the toner slows down the toning action, which makes possible > > getting beautiful and controllable split tones. > > > > Regards, > > Loris. > > > > > > 2013/5/8 > > > > > > Gold toned vandykes are, in my opinion, the most interesting looking of > > > the iron sensitive alternative prints. The beautiful blue-black look is > > > truly unique in this type of print, and when toned, and processed > > > correctly, the prints are probably as stable as pt/pd prints. > > > > > > These days I do most of my printing with carbon transfer, but for those > > > who might be interested in gold toned vandykes see my article. > > > > http://www.sandykingphotography.com/resources/technical-writing/vandyke > > > > > > And toning a print with the minimum solution of a gold-thiourea toner, > as > > > Loris describes, is very economical. > > > > > > > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > > > I see, OTOH 1g gold chloride would make 2000ml gold-thiourea toner > which > > > > is > > > > pretty workable (in a use and discard regime) by diluting 1+2 or 1+3. > > > > About > > > > 60-150ml diluted toner would suffice for prints sized between 5x7" to > > > > 11x14", in flat bottomed trays. > > > > > > > > I should find a vellum that works locally, haven't succeeded in that > so > > > > far, but I haven't looked hard enough. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Loris. > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Thu May 9 17:52:19 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 17:52:19 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now Argyrotype In-Reply-To: References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com>, <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it>, <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com>, , <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com>, , <055C0EC2-779E-4D0F-A8B5-9A3A48090961@gmail.com>, , <9759D9B2-0DDA-48AE-B156-B25AE83C1D32@gmail.com>, , , , <46245.75.137.124.157.1367962673.squirrel@localhost>, , , Message-ID: Thanks Loris, I tried a test strip yesterday and it worked great. Great DMAX, beautiful tonal gradation. Today on the dry test stip I noticed some general fog (stain). I can think of two possibilities. I used hydrochloric acid (muratic acid) to wash the FA soft press paper. Any residual chloride would be incopatible with the silver chemistry resulting in some silver chloride precipitation. I also did not acidify the water for developing. Any more insight from long time argyrotype practitioners? I really like the pruplish gray of the gold toner highlights Good news is I picked up a 1lb of sulfamic acid at Home Deport for about $6 for furter experimentation Marek > Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 02:53:24 +0300 > From: mail at loris.medici.name > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf > > Hi Marek, > > Yes, gold-thiourea toning (I don't do gold-thiocyanate? toning) works great > / equally well with Argyrotypes. I just did a split toned print tonight > (It's not perfect, I'll have to reprint it. But it's fine enough to show > one of the possible results when gold toning Argyrotypes...) see it here: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/loris-medici/8720991367/ > > Regards, > Loris. > > > > 2013/5/8 Marek Matusz > > > Loris, > > > > Does the argyrotype take that well to the gold toning. WOuld you have some > > examples to look at? > > > > I tried argyrotype years back and it was a disaster, but now I am ready to > > try it again on acid treated Fabriano soft press that gave me wonderful > > results with palladium. > > > > Marek > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 08:34:20 +0300 > > > From: mail at loris.medici.name > > > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > > > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf > > > > > > Diluting the toner slows down the toning action, which makes possible > > > getting beautiful and controllable split tones. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Loris. > > > > > > > > > 2013/5/8 > > > > > > > > Gold toned vandykes are, in my opinion, the most interesting looking of > > > > the iron sensitive alternative prints. The beautiful blue-black look is > > > > truly unique in this type of print, and when toned, and processed > > > > correctly, the prints are probably as stable as pt/pd prints. > > > > > > > > These days I do most of my printing with carbon transfer, but for those > > > > who might be interested in gold toned vandykes see my article. > > > > > > http://www.sandykingphotography.com/resources/technical-writing/vandyke > > > > > > > > And toning a print with the minimum solution of a gold-thiourea toner, > > as > > > > Loris describes, is very economical. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see, OTOH 1g gold chloride would make 2000ml gold-thiourea toner > > which > > > > > is > > > > > pretty workable (in a use and discard regime) by diluting 1+2 or 1+3. > > > > > About > > > > > 60-150ml diluted toner would suffice for prints sized between 5x7" to > > > > > 11x14", in flat bottomed trays. > > > > > > > > > > I should find a vellum that works locally, haven't succeeded in that > > so > > > > > far, but I haven't looked hard enough. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Loris. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From sbilici at gmail.com Thu May 9 18:30:36 2013 From: sbilici at gmail.com (Serdar Bilici) Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 21:30:36 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now Argyrotype In-Reply-To: References: <0a9701ce47f6$c8283c10$5878b430$@gmail.com>, <20130505062049.32238.qmail@webmaildh5.aruba.it>, <0cd001ce495f$d2c48ba0$784da2e0$@gmail.com>, , <0cd801ce4973$bbf20470$33d60d50$@gmail.com>, , <055C0EC2-779E-4D0F-A8B5-9A3A48090961@gmail.com>, , <9759D9B2-0DDA-48AE-B156-B25AE83C1D32@gmail.com>, , , , <46245.75.137.124.157.1367962673.squirrel@localhost>, , , Message-ID: <04a001ce4ce3$4da37c10$e8ea7430$@gmail.com> Hi Marek, Let me squeze in a few thoughts... When I tested HCl with canson montval and FA TW HP (and schoellerschammer) the dmax with the argyrotype was not bad. Blacks were better than single coated VDB but not as good as double coated. I did not test HCl with FA EW SP. And I haven't toned the prints. Dmax I get with sulfamic acid treated papers were better than HCl treated papers. And I must say, I have decided not to do VDB anymore after having such good blacks using argyrotype and SA treated papers. I got great dmax with FA EW soft press using argyrotype(untoned), the blacks are identical to the results with masa paper. (I often compare my results with masa paper, I consider its results as a very good benchmark) If you can compare the results after trying sulfamic acid treatment, I think that would be quite informative for everyone. Gold toning was a parameter I was not able to test by that time, and the toning overall has quite a dramatic effect on dmax. Best Regards Serdar -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Marek Matusz Sent: 09 May?s 2013 Per?embe 20:52 To: alt photo Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now Argyrotype Thanks Loris, I tried a test strip yesterday and it worked great. Great DMAX, beautiful tonal gradation. Today on the dry test stip I noticed some general fog (stain). I can think of two possibilities. I used hydrochloric acid (muratic acid) to wash the FA soft press paper. Any residual chloride would be incopatible with the silver chemistry resulting in some silver chloride precipitation. I also did not acidify the water for developing. Any more insight from long time argyrotype practitioners? I really like the pruplish gray of the gold toner highlights Good news is I picked up a 1lb of sulfamic acid at Home Deport for about $6 for furter experimentation Marek > Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 02:53:24 +0300 > From: mail at loris.medici.name > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf > > Hi Marek, > > Yes, gold-thiourea toning (I don't do gold-thiocyanate? toning) works > great / equally well with Argyrotypes. I just did a split toned print > tonight (It's not perfect, I'll have to reprint it. But it's fine > enough to show one of the possible results when gold toning Argyrotypes...) see it here: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/loris-medici/8720991367/ > > Regards, > Loris. > > > > 2013/5/8 Marek Matusz > > > Loris, > > > > Does the argyrotype take that well to the gold toning. WOuld you > > have some examples to look at? > > > > I tried argyrotype years back and it was a disaster, but now I am > > ready to try it again on acid treated Fabriano soft press that gave > > me wonderful results with palladium. > > > > Marek > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 08:34:20 +0300 > > > From: mail at loris.medici.name > > > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > > > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf > > > > > > Diluting the toner slows down the toning action, which makes > > > possible getting beautiful and controllable split tones. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Loris. > > > > > > > > > 2013/5/8 > > > > > > > > Gold toned vandykes are, in my opinion, the most interesting > > > > looking of the iron sensitive alternative prints. The beautiful > > > > blue-black look is truly unique in this type of print, and when > > > > toned, and processed correctly, the prints are probably as stable as pt/pd prints. > > > > > > > > These days I do most of my printing with carbon transfer, but > > > > for those who might be interested in gold toned vandykes see my article. > > > > > > http://www.sandykingphotography.com/resources/technical-writing/vand > > yke > > > > > > > > And toning a print with the minimum solution of a gold-thiourea > > > > toner, > > as > > > > Loris describes, is very economical. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sandy > > > > > > > > > > > > > I see, OTOH 1g gold chloride would make 2000ml gold-thiourea > > > > > toner > > which > > > > > is > > > > > pretty workable (in a use and discard regime) by diluting 1+2 or 1+3. > > > > > About > > > > > 60-150ml diluted toner would suffice for prints sized between > > > > > 5x7" to 11x14", in flat bottomed trays. > > > > > > > > > > I should find a vellum that works locally, haven't succeeded > > > > > in that > > so > > > > > far, but I haven't looked hard enough. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Loris. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From donsbryant at gmail.com Fri May 10 01:34:30 2013 From: donsbryant at gmail.com (Don) Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 21:34:30 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather> Thanks Sandy. I would encourage anyone interested in the Agyrotype process to purchase the silver oxide or purchase a kit from the usual sources. If one decides that they indeed like the process then the effort required making silver oxide from silver nitrate will be worth while. For the neophyte it may prove to be off putting and create a built in receipt for failure. Don -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Sandy King Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2013 6:37 PM To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf Don, Both Sam and I were able to get very high shadow density (Dmax of about log 1.6) using acidified Lanaquarelle with both gold-tone vandyke and argyrotype. Not sure how Sam acidified the paper, but I used a 1.5% solution of oxalic acid, soaking the paper for five minutes. Lanaquarelle is a wonderful paper for this process. Would add that this work was done in late spring, early summer when RH in our work spaces would have typically been around 50%-60%. Sandy On May 8, 2013, at 1:12 PM, Don Bryant wrote: > I'm not Loris so I apologize for perhaps stealing his thunder, YES! gold toners work great with argyrotype. Thanks to Sam Wang and Sandy King for turning me own to agyrotype printing using the beautiful white paper Lanaquarel acitified with Oxalic acid. Perhaps sulphamic will work even better. > > Don Bryant > > Marek Matusz wrote: > >> Loris, >> >> Does the argyrotype take that well to the gold toning. WOuld you have some examples to look at? >> >> I tried argyrotype years back and it was a disaster, but now I am ready to try it again on acid treated Fabriano soft press that gave me wonderful results with palladium. >> >> Marek >> >> >>> Date: Wed, 8 May 2013 08:34:20 +0300 >>> From: mail at loris.medici.name >>> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >>> Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf >>> >>> Diluting the toner slows down the toning action, which makes possible >>> getting beautiful and controllable split tones. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Loris. >>> >>> >>> 2013/5/8 >>>> >>>> Gold toned vandykes are, in my opinion, the most interesting looking of >>>> the iron sensitive alternative prints. The beautiful blue-black look is >>>> truly unique in this type of print, and when toned, and processed >>>> correctly, the prints are probably as stable as pt/pd prints. >>>> >>>> These days I do most of my printing with carbon transfer, but for those >>>> who might be interested in gold toned vandykes see my article. >>>> http://www.sandykingphotography.com/resources/technical-writing/vandyke >>>> >>>> And toning a print with the minimum solution of a gold-thiourea toner, as >>>> Loris describes, is very economical. >>>> >>>> >>>> Sandy >>>> >>>> >>>>> I see, OTOH 1g gold chloride would make 2000ml gold-thiourea toner which >>>>> is >>>>> pretty workable (in a use and discard regime) by diluting 1+2 or 1+3. >>>>> About >>>>> 60-150ml diluted toner would suffice for prints sized between 5x7" to >>>>> 11x14", in flat bottomed trays. >>>>> >>>>> I should find a vellum that works locally, haven't succeeded in that so >>>>> far, but I haven't looked hard enough. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> Loris. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From emanphoto at gmail.com Fri May 10 05:43:31 2013 From: emanphoto at gmail.com (eric nelson) Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 12:43:31 +0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] South East Asia Chemical Suppliers? Message-ID: I've been looking (Googling) for a photo chemical supplier here in Thailand or somewhere "nearby" with no luck at all. I'm looking to get into wet plates (as well as back into the processes I did back in the states) but shipping those chems from my past suppliers in the US is going to be very expensive plus one never knows what will get stopped by customs here. I just read of someone's vitamin shipment being stopped by customs here. Fortunately I was able to ship with our worldly goods, the bulk of my apothecary, but that will last only so long and I could not ship anything flammable or dangerous like drum scanning fluids and acids. I don't know if anyone on the list resides in this neck of the woods, but any help or advice would be appreciated. e From jon at sharperstill.com Fri May 10 05:57:46 2013 From: jon at sharperstill.com (Jon Reid) Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 15:57:46 +1000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: South East Asia Chemical Suppliers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <518C8C5A.50305@sharperstill.com> Eric, The noted documentary photographer Philip Blenkinsop resides in Bangkok and as far as I know continues analog photography. I don't think he was ever into alt processes but was a huge fan of Type 55. He has a studio called 2snakestudio, there is a contact on this page http://www.philipblenkinsop.com He's been in that area for nearly 20 years so may be able to help you. Photojournalist Jack Picone has also been there for years. I imagine he's mostly digital these days but would have been film for a while. Contact details on his page http://www.jackpicone.com Jon > eric nelson > 10 May 2013 3:43 PM > I've been looking (Googling) for a photo chemical supplier here in > Thailand > or somewhere "nearby" with no luck at all. > I'm looking to get into wet plates (as well as back into the processes I > did back in the states) but shipping those chems from my past suppliers in > the US is going to be very expensive plus one never knows what will get > stopped by customs here. I just read of someone's vitamin shipment being > stopped by customs here. > > Fortunately I was able to ship with our worldly goods, the bulk of my > apothecary, but that will last only so long and I could not ship anything > flammable or dangerous like drum scanning fluids and acids. > > I don't know if anyone on the list resides in this neck of the woods, but > any help or advice would be appreciated. > > e > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Fri May 10 07:00:37 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 10:00:37 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf In-Reply-To: <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather> References: <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather> Message-ID: Hi Don, I agree about kits (if you don't want to mess with chemistry), OTOH, if one's going to get their hands dirty, compounding silver oxide from silver nitrate + sodium hydroxide isn't that hard or fail-prone (just weight the chemicals, prepare the solutions, mix them and then stir + decant 3-4 times...), and the cost difference would be significant in most parts of the world. Regards, Loris. 2013/5/10 Don > > Thanks Sandy. > > I would encourage anyone interested in the Agyrotype process to purchase the > silver oxide or purchase a kit from the usual sources. > > If one decides that they indeed like the process then the effort required > making silver oxide from silver nitrate will be worth while. For the > neophyte it may prove to be off putting and create a built in receipt for > failure. > > Don From aschmitt at aandy.org Fri May 10 13:17:28 2013 From: aschmitt at aandy.org (andy schmitt) Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 09:17:28 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf In-Reply-To: References: <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather> Message-ID: <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org> Hi Loris Isn't silver oxide the result of "detox'ing" used fixer by dropping steel wool in it? Fascinating conversation... I'm going to have to try Agyrotypes Thank You Regards Andy Schmitt Head of The New & Improved Photography Dept, Peters Valley School of Craft http://www.petersvalley.org/html/Photography.cfm -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Loris Medici Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 3:01 AM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf Hi Don, I agree about kits (if you don't want to mess with chemistry), OTOH, if one's going to get their hands dirty, compounding silver oxide from silver nitrate + sodium hydroxide isn't that hard or fail-prone (just weight the chemicals, prepare the solutions, mix them and then stir + decant 3-4 times...), and the cost difference would be significant in most parts of the world. Regards, Loris. 2013/5/10 Don > > Thanks Sandy. > > I would encourage anyone interested in the Agyrotype process to > purchase the > silver oxide or purchase a kit from the usual sources. > > If one decides that they indeed like the process then the effort > required making silver oxide from silver nitrate will be worth while. > For the neophyte it may prove to be off putting and create a built in > receipt for failure. > > Don _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Fri May 10 14:33:37 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 17:33:37 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf In-Reply-To: <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org> References: <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather> <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org> Message-ID: Hi Andy, I'm not familiar with the procedure you describe, but my gut feeling is that you'll get elementary silver that way. Regards, Loris. 2013/5/10 andy schmitt > > Hi Loris > Isn't silver oxide the result of "detox'ing" used fixer by dropping steel > wool in it? > > Fascinating conversation... I'm going to have to try Agyrotypes > Thank You > > Regards > > Andy Schmitt > > Head of The New & Improved Photography Dept, > Peters Valley School of Craft > http://www.petersvalley.org/html/Photography.cfm > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of > Loris Medici > Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 3:01 AM > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf > > Hi Don, I agree about kits (if you don't want to mess with chemistry), OTOH, > if one's going to get their hands dirty, compounding silver oxide from > silver nitrate + sodium hydroxide isn't that hard or fail-prone (just weight > the chemicals, prepare the solutions, mix them and then stir + decant 3-4 > times...), and the cost difference would be significant in most parts of the > world. > > Regards, > Loris. > > > 2013/5/10 Don > > > > Thanks Sandy. > > > > I would encourage anyone interested in the Agyrotype process to > > purchase > the > > silver oxide or purchase a kit from the usual sources. > > > > If one decides that they indeed like the process then the effort > > required making silver oxide from silver nitrate will be worth while. > > For the neophyte it may prove to be off putting and create a built in > > receipt for failure. > > > > Don From aschmitt at aandy.org Fri May 10 14:49:53 2013 From: aschmitt at aandy.org (andy schmitt) Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 10:49:53 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf In-Reply-To: References: <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather> <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org> Message-ID: <0b4501ce4d8d$a2e29990$e8a7ccb0$@aandy.org> I certainly wish u would... It was an old & cheap way to detox used fixer, stirring steel wool into it. The Silver is replaced with iron & you get AgO as a precipitate... A really nice stable, hard to break up compound... Have a great weekend... -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Loris Medici Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 10:34 AM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf Hi Andy, I'm not familiar with the procedure you describe, but my gut feeling is that you'll get elementary silver that way. Regards, Loris. 2013/5/10 andy schmitt > > Hi Loris > Isn't silver oxide the result of "detox'ing" used fixer by dropping > steel wool in it? > > Fascinating conversation... I'm going to have to try Agyrotypes Thank > You > > Regards > > Andy Schmitt > > Head of The New & Improved Photography Dept, Peters Valley School of > Craft http://www.petersvalley.org/html/Photography.cfm > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On > Behalf Of > Loris Medici > Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 3:01 AM > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf > > Hi Don, I agree about kits (if you don't want to mess with chemistry), OTOH, > if one's going to get their hands dirty, compounding silver oxide from > silver nitrate + sodium hydroxide isn't that hard or fail-prone (just weight > the chemicals, prepare the solutions, mix them and then stir + decant > 3-4 times...), and the cost difference would be significant in most > parts of the > world. > > Regards, > Loris. > > > 2013/5/10 Don > > > > Thanks Sandy. > > > > I would encourage anyone interested in the Agyrotype process to > > purchase > the > > silver oxide or purchase a kit from the usual sources. > > > > If one decides that they indeed like the process then the effort > > required making silver oxide from silver nitrate will be worth while. > > For the neophyte it may prove to be off putting and create a built > > in receipt for failure. > > > > Don _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From jefulton1 at comcast.net Fri May 10 15:24:12 2013 From: jefulton1 at comcast.net (Jack Fulton) Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 08:24:12 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf In-Reply-To: References: <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather> <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org> Message-ID: This is the once-familiar method of recycling the silver from fixer. Kodak provided a 5 gallon bucket where the used fixer was poured into the container filled with steel wool. The silver replaced the iron of the wool and an oxide sludge remained. It was then sent to Kodak for recycling and payment returned. I then turned to an X-Rite electrolytic cathode/anode unit where we'd flake off the silver and send it for return as 99% silver. The school was not then cognizant of the need for recycling waste and I paid for the unit in order to institute eco principles. After paying for the unit with cash from recovered silver I retain some dozen pounds. The school ultimately hired a company to pick up the exhausted chemistry, which is how it is all handled now. Cheers Jack On May 10, 2013, at 7:33 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > Hi Andy, I'm not familiar with the procedure you describe, but my gut > feeling is that you'll get elementary silver that way. > > Regards, > Loris. > > > 2013/5/10 andy schmitt >> >> Hi Loris >> Isn't silver oxide the result of "detox'ing" used fixer by dropping steel >> wool in it? >> >> Fascinating conversation... I'm going to have to try Agyrotypes >> Thank You >> >> Regards >> >> Andy Schmitt >> >> Head of The New & Improved Photography Dept, >> Peters Valley School of Craft >> http://www.petersvalley.org/html/Photography.cfm >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org >> [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf > Of >> Loris Medici >> Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 3:01 AM >> To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list >> Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf >> >> Hi Don, I agree about kits (if you don't want to mess with chemistry), > OTOH, >> if one's going to get their hands dirty, compounding silver oxide from >> silver nitrate + sodium hydroxide isn't that hard or fail-prone (just > weight >> the chemicals, prepare the solutions, mix them and then stir + decant 3-4 >> times...), and the cost difference would be significant in most parts of > the >> world. >> >> Regards, >> Loris. >> >> >> 2013/5/10 Don >>> >>> Thanks Sandy. >>> >>> I would encourage anyone interested in the Agyrotype process to >>> purchase >> the >>> silver oxide or purchase a kit from the usual sources. >>> >>> If one decides that they indeed like the process then the effort >>> required making silver oxide from silver nitrate will be worth while. >>> For the neophyte it may prove to be off putting and create a built in >>> receipt for failure. >>> >>> Don > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From darryl at darrylbaird.com Fri May 10 17:57:00 2013 From: darryl at darrylbaird.com (Darryl Baird) Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 11:57:00 -0600 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf In-Reply-To: <0b4501ce4d8d$a2e29990$e8a7ccb0$@aandy.org> References: <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather> <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org> <0b4501ce4d8d$a2e29990$e8a7ccb0$@aandy.org> Message-ID: That's an interesting technique for silver oxide... must try it since there is a lot of used fix around, but I'd bet to use it in Argyrotype might introduce other issues into printing unless it can be truly high grade precipitant. I've certainly made silver oxide using sodium hydroxide. A note to those considering this route: use a final container several times larger than the required silver nitrate + sodium hydroxide chemistry since the combination is pretty volatile... its volume expands quickly before the precipitant forms and the solution "settles down.". Anecdote: We once experimented substituting sodium hydroxide with Draino, which lists sodium hydroxide as "100%" of its contents, and got an argyrotype which was neutral (gray) in color as opposed to the warm brown. I'm guessing there was something else in the can... :) ~Darryl On 2013-05-10 08:49, andy schmitt wrote: > I certainly wish u would... > It was an old & cheap way to detox used fixer, stirring steel wool into it. > The Silver is replaced with iron & you get AgO as a precipitate... > A really nice stable, hard to break up compound... > Have a great weekend... > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of > Loris Medici > Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 10:34 AM > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf > > Hi Andy, I'm not familiar with the procedure you describe, but my gut > feeling is that you'll get elementary silver that way. > > Regards, > Loris. > > 2013/5/10 andy schmitt > >> Hi Loris Isn't silver oxide the result of "detox'ing" used fixer by dropping steel wool in it? Fascinating conversation... I'm going to have to try Agyrotypes Thank You Regards Andy Schmitt Head of The New & Improved Photography Dept, Peters Valley School of Craft http://www.petersvalley.org/html/Photography.cfm [1] -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf > > Of > >> Loris Medici Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 3:01 AM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf Hi Don, I agree about kits (if you don't want to mess with chemistry), > > OTOH, > if one's going to get their hands dirty, compounding silver oxide from silver nitrate + sodium hydroxide isn't that hard or fail-prone (just > > weight Links: ------ [1] http://www.petersvalley.org/html/Photography.cfm From emanphoto at gmail.com Sat May 11 04:51:54 2013 From: emanphoto at gmail.com (eric nelson) Date: Sat, 11 May 2013 11:51:54 +0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: South East Asia Chemical Suppliers? In-Reply-To: <518C8C5A.50305@sharperstill.com> References: <518C8C5A.50305@sharperstill.com> Message-ID: Thank you Jon, I'll drop them a note and see if they have any leads here. Eric On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Jon Reid wrote: > Eric, > The noted documentary photographer Philip Blenkinsop resides in Bangkok > and as far as I know continues analog photography. I don't think he was > ever into alt processes but was a huge fan of Type 55. He has a studio > called 2snakestudio, there is a contact on this page > http://www.philipblenkinsop.**com > He's been in that area for nearly 20 years so may be able to help you. > Photojournalist Jack Picone has also been there for years. I imagine he's > mostly digital these days but would have been film for a while. Contact > details on his page http://www.jackpicone.com > > Jon > > eric nelson >> 10 May 2013 3:43 PM >> >> I've been looking (Googling) for a photo chemical supplier here in >> Thailand >> or somewhere "nearby" with no luck at all. >> I'm looking to get into wet plates (as well as back into the processes I >> did back in the states) but shipping those chems from my past suppliers in >> the US is going to be very expensive plus one never knows what will get >> stopped by customs here. I just read of someone's vitamin shipment being >> stopped by customs here. >> > package-is-stuck-at-**customsfda/ >> > >> >> Fortunately I was able to ship with our worldly goods, the bulk of my >> apothecary, but that will last only so long and I could not ship anything >> flammable or dangerous like drum scanning fluids and acids. >> >> I don't know if anyone on the list resides in this neck of the woods, but >> any help or advice would be appreciated. >> >> e >> ______________________________**_________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/**mailman/listinfo >> > ______________________________**_________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/**mailman/listinfo > From katejordahl at gmail.com Sat May 11 05:25:05 2013 From: katejordahl at gmail.com (gmail) Date: Fri, 10 May 2013 22:25:05 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: South East Asia Chemical Suppliers? In-Reply-To: References: <518C8C5A.50305@sharperstill.com> Message-ID: Hi Eric - - When I took Mark Nelson's workshop, a wonderful photographer from Bangkok was there, Virakich Sudhasawin and we have kept in touch. I know he is doing platinum printing and also has an art supply business. If you contact me off list, I would be happy to connect the two of you. Kate Jordahl kate at jordahlphoto.com www.katejordahl.com On May 10, 2013, at 9:51 PM, eric nelson wrote: > Thank you Jon, I'll drop them a note and see if they have any leads here. > Eric > > > On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Jon Reid wrote: > >> Eric, >> The noted documentary photographer Philip Blenkinsop resides in Bangkok >> and as far as I know continues analog photography. I don't think he was >> ever into alt processes but was a huge fan of Type 55. He has a studio >> called 2snakestudio, there is a contact on this page >> http://www.philipblenkinsop.**com >> He's been in that area for nearly 20 years so may be able to help you. >> Photojournalist Jack Picone has also been there for years. I imagine he's >> mostly digital these days but would have been film for a while. Contact >> details on his page http://www.jackpicone.com >> >> Jon >> >> eric nelson >>> 10 May 2013 3:43 PM >>> >>> I've been looking (Googling) for a photo chemical supplier here in >>> Thailand >>> or somewhere "nearby" with no luck at all. >>> I'm looking to get into wet plates (as well as back into the processes I >>> did back in the states) but shipping those chems from my past suppliers in >>> the US is going to be very expensive plus one never knows what will get >>> stopped by customs here. I just read of someone's vitamin shipment being >>> stopped by customs here. >>> >> package-is-stuck-at-**customsfda/ >>>> >>> >>> Fortunately I was able to ship with our worldly goods, the bulk of my >>> apothecary, but that will last only so long and I could not ship anything >>> flammable or dangerous like drum scanning fluids and acids. >>> >>> I don't know if anyone on the list resides in this neck of the woods, but >>> any help or advice would be appreciated. >>> >>> e >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/**mailman/listinfo >>> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/**mailman/listinfo >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From alt.list at albertonovo.it Sat May 11 06:24:11 2013 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Sat, 11 May 2013 08:24:11 +0200 Subject: [Alt-photo] lith printing Message-ID: <20130511062411.27417.qmail@webmaildh2.aruba.it> When was introduced lith printing for the first time? I am googling here and there, but I am not able to find such information. Alberto www.facebook.com/alberto.novo.1 www.grupponamias.com www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group From aschmitt at aandy.org Sat May 11 13:08:33 2013 From: aschmitt at aandy.org (andy schmitt) Date: Sat, 11 May 2013 09:08:33 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf In-Reply-To: References: <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather> <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org> Message-ID: <0ebc01ce4e48$a4f67470$eee35d50$@aandy.org> Several DOZEN pounds... ?? Nice..... -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Jack Fulton Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 11:24 AM To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf This is the once-familiar method of recycling the silver from fixer. Kodak provided a 5 gallon bucket where the used fixer was poured into the container filled with steel wool. The silver replaced the iron of the wool and an oxide sludge remained. It was then sent to Kodak for recycling and payment returned. I then turned to an X-Rite electrolytic cathode/anode unit where we'd flake off the silver and send it for return as 99% silver. The school was not then cognizant of the need for recycling waste and I paid for the unit in order to institute eco principles. After paying for the unit with cash from recovered silver I retain some dozen pounds. The school ultimately hired a company to pick up the exhausted chemistry, which is how it is all handled now. Cheers Jack From mail at loris.medici.name Sat May 11 15:18:50 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Sat, 11 May 2013 18:18:50 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf In-Reply-To: References: <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather> <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org> <0b4501ce4d8d$a2e29990$e8a7ccb0$@aandy.org> Message-ID: First of all thanks for the used fixer and steel wool info, that was something I didn't know... Darryl, I use a 600ml beaker for the job, I prepare around 100ml of silver nitrate and 100ml sodium hydroxide (both solutions with matching amounts of each compound) and pour one into the other, I didn't notice any extra / significant volume increase during the reaction. I then stir well, let the dry settle, decant 3-4 more times with distilled water and put the sludge into the sulfamic acid solution (using a plastic spoon) later. Pretty easy stuff, you just need four extra steps: 1. silver nitrate solution, 2. sodium hydroxide solution and 3. combining the two and 4. decanting / washing few times. Regards, Loris. 2013/5/10 Darryl Baird > > ... > I've certainly made silver oxide using > sodium hydroxide. A note to those considering this route: use a final > container several times larger than the required silver nitrate + sodium > hydroxide chemistry since the combination is pretty volatile... its > volume expands quickly before the precipitant forms and the solution > "settles down.". > ... From jefulton1 at comcast.net Sat May 11 18:15:43 2013 From: jefulton1 at comcast.net (Jack Fulton) Date: Sat, 11 May 2013 11:15:43 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf In-Reply-To: <0ebc01ce4e48$a4f67470$eee35d50$@aandy.org> References: <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather> <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org> <0ebc01ce4e48$a4f67470$eee35d50$@aandy.org> Message-ID: Oh no Andy....ONE dozen (12 pounds) . . . When recycling in a lab quite a bit of silver is deposited and particularly if doing color for all the silver is removed from the film and/or paper. On May 11, 2013, at 6:08 AM, andy schmitt wrote: > Several DOZEN pounds... ?? > Nice..... > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On > Behalf Of > Jack Fulton > Sent: Friday, May 10, 2013 11:24 AM > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf > > This is the once-familiar method of recycling the silver from fixer. > Kodak > provided a 5 gallon bucket where the used fixer was poured into the > container filled with steel wool. The silver replaced the iron of > the wool > and an oxide sludge remained. It was then sent to Kodak for > recycling and > payment returned. I then turned to an X-Rite electrolytic cathode/ > anode unit > where we'd flake off the silver and send it for return as 99% > silver. The > school was not then cognizant of the need for recycling waste and I > paid for > the unit in order to institute eco principles. > After paying for the unit with cash from recovered silver I retain > some > dozen pounds. The school ultimately hired a company to pick up the > exhausted > chemistry, which is how it is all handled now. > Cheers > Jack > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From darryl at darrylbaird.com Sun May 12 22:17:41 2013 From: darryl at darrylbaird.com (Darryl Baird) Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 16:17:41 -0600 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf In-Reply-To: References: <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather> <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org> <0b4501ce4d8d$a2e29990$e8a7ccb0$@aandy.org> Message-ID: <381f5eb3974bdf86fdd5f76fff151120@darrylbaird.com> Loris are you pouring them slowly? I seem to remember that making a "speedy" mixture was more a problem, but it has been several years since I've mixed these together. I recall a 1 liter beaker rapidly becoming "full" when mixing a similar amount... perhaps I'm remembering the Drano experiment? I have about two gallons of spent fix on hand, so I'll be trying the steel wool trick this summer. Might as well try some argyrotype while I'm at it. ... love this thread. Another note: the Lowe's or Home Depot sulfamic acid that I have found is used as "tile cleaner".. are there other sources at the hardware stores? On 2013-05-11 09:18, Loris Medici wrote: > First of all thanks for the used fixer and steel wool info, that was > something I didn't know... > > Darryl, I use a 600ml beaker for the job, I prepare around 100ml of silver > nitrate and 100ml sodium hydroxide (both solutions with matching amounts of > each compound) and pour one into the other, I didn't notice any extra / > significant volume increase during the reaction. I then stir well, let the > dry settle, decant 3-4 more times with distilled water and put the sludge > into the sulfamic acid solution (using a plastic spoon) later. Pretty easy > stuff, you just need four extra steps: 1. silver nitrate solution, 2. > sodium hydroxide solution and 3. combining the two and 4. decanting / > washing few times. > > Regards, > Loris. > > 2013/5/10 Darryl Baird > >> ... I've certainly made silver oxide using sodium hydroxide. A note to those considering this route: use a final container several times larger than the required silver nitrate + sodium hydroxide chemistry since the combination is pretty volatile... its volume expands quickly before the precipitant forms and the solution "settles down.". ... > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Mon May 13 07:17:19 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 10:17:19 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf In-Reply-To: <381f5eb3974bdf86fdd5f76fff151120@darrylbaird.com> References: <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather> <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org> <0b4501ce4d8d$a2e29990$e8a7ccb0$@aandy.org> <381f5eb3974bdf86fdd5f76fff151120@darrylbaird.com> Message-ID: Hi Darryl, I pour the sodium hydroxide solution slowly into the silver nitrate solution stirring vigorously, you get silver oxide precipitation w/o any extra volume increase. Maybe you're remembering another experiment as you say... If you're going to use silver oxide precipitated by used fixed be sure to wash it thoroughly, I doesn't sound a perfectly pure way of getting it but may work if it's clean enough. Regards, Loris. 2013/5/13 Darryl Baird > > Loris are you pouring them slowly? I seem to remember that making a > "speedy" mixture was more a problem, but it has been several years since > I've mixed these together. I recall a 1 liter beaker rapidly becoming > "full" when mixing a similar amount... perhaps I'm remembering the Drano > experiment? > > I have about two gallons of spent fix on hand, so I'll be > trying the steel wool trick this summer. Might as well try some > argyrotype while I'm at it. > ... From C.Breukel at lumc.nl Mon May 13 09:01:56 2013 From: C.Breukel at lumc.nl (C.Breukel at lumc.nl) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 09:01:56 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf In-Reply-To: References: <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather> <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org> <0b4501ce4d8d$a2e29990$e8a7ccb0$@aandy.org> <381f5eb3974bdf86fdd5f76fff151120@darrylbaird.com> Message-ID: <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A7242297FD@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern> All these discussions make want to give Agryotype again, I wasn't too happy with the results on Simili Japon, but I did not use an acid treatment. Gold toning is not always suitable (at least to my taste), was Pt toning tried in combination with Agryotype, and if so could you share your procedure ? Thanks, Best, Cor From christinazanderson at gmail.com Mon May 13 16:30:50 2013 From: christinazanderson at gmail.com (Christina Anderson) Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 10:30:50 -0600 Subject: [Alt-photo] casein and Ferrari red Message-ID: <13E5AEF5-A697-472A-8834-6BF7C6FE2D26@gmail.com> Dear All, I have been working on a body of casein prints. Today I decided to use some PR254, that beautiful Ferrari Red (Daniel Smith Pyrrol Red, Da Vinci Red, Maimeri Sandal Red, M.Graham pyrrol red, Rembrandt permanent red deep, Schmincke scarlet, Sennelier red, Winsor red are some brand names). Works great with gum for a brilliant lipstick red. I mixed it up with my casein and it was instant curdle/coagulation of the casein! No problem at all with the usual colors, but with the metal salts as has been discussed on the list you can work with them but stock solutions will lump up in a brief time into insoluble chunks so I never mix stock casein anymore once I learned that lesson. However, with nickel azo yellow, for instance, one of my favorite yellows that lumps up, I can still use it if I mix it up right at time of use. Same with red iron oxide. But PR 254 is diketo pyrrollo-pyrole. Don't have any idea why that would make this happen instantly. Does anyone have a guess why this pigment causes instant coaglulation and precipitation of the casein??? Is it just an acidity thing or is it a metallic salt? It precipitated the casein into squishy curds. Never seen this happen so rapidly before... Any other casein printers experience colors that coagulate, or want to pull out their PR254 and see this happen? If you have, what colors? Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Tue May 14 04:55:18 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 04:55:18 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein and Ferrari red In-Reply-To: <13E5AEF5-A697-472A-8834-6BF7C6FE2D26@gmail.com> References: <13E5AEF5-A697-472A-8834-6BF7C6FE2D26@gmail.com> Message-ID: Chris, It is good to hear from you again, and welcome to the summer break from your school work. Ever since I had some time to read your chapter on casein I wanted to comment on your pigment choice compatibility with casein. I have been using nickel azo yellow as my yellow for casein and never found any problems with it. Unlike gum printing I do not make casein stock solutions. My casein lasts for about a year and my gum stock solutions last for years (so far about 3-5 years). Since my casein solutions do not last that long I have not been making stock solutions, just mixing pigments on the fly and never had a problem say within 2-8 h of mixing.Your note got my curiosity up and I mixed some PR 254, ferrari red (DS) with my sock casein solution and it mixed just fine. It has been sitting for about an hour now with now issues. I do remember now that I did a project earlier with the use of PR254 for a spot color with no issues as well. I will keep the mix for a few days to see if I can spot any problems. I know that my casein mix is completely different from what you practice. Perhaps some of the components make the difference and even the age of the mix since I do not use it before a week or two after mixing. My current stock casein solution is about 4 moths old. WHat brad of PR254 did you use? That is definitely an interesting topic to pursue further. I will keep you updated on the PR254 experiment Marek > From: christinazanderson at gmail.com > Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 10:30:50 -0600 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] casein and Ferrari red > > Dear All, > I have been working on a body of casein prints. Today I decided to use some PR254, that beautiful Ferrari Red (Daniel Smith Pyrrol Red, Da Vinci Red, Maimeri Sandal Red, M.Graham pyrrol red, Rembrandt permanent red deep, Schmincke scarlet, Sennelier red, Winsor red are some brand names). Works great with gum for a brilliant lipstick red. > > I mixed it up with my casein and it was instant curdle/coagulation of the casein! No problem at all with the usual colors, but with the metal salts as has been discussed on the list you can work with them but stock solutions will lump up in a brief time into insoluble chunks so I never mix stock casein anymore once I learned that lesson. However, with nickel azo yellow, for instance, one of my favorite yellows that lumps up, I can still use it if I mix it up right at time of use. Same with red iron oxide. > > But PR 254 is diketo pyrrollo-pyrole. Don't have any idea why that would make this happen instantly. Does anyone have a guess why this pigment causes instant coaglulation and precipitation of the casein??? Is it just an acidity thing or is it a metallic salt? It precipitated the casein into squishy curds. Never seen this happen so rapidly before... > > Any other casein printers experience colors that coagulate, or want to pull out their PR254 and see this happen? If you have, what colors? > Chris > > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Tue May 14 05:15:15 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 05:15:15 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning In-Reply-To: <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A7242297FD@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern> References: , , <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather>, , <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org>, , <0b4501ce4d8d$a2e29990$e8a7ccb0$@aandy.org>, , , <381f5eb3974bdf86fdd5f76fff151120@darrylbaird.com>, , <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A7242297FD@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern> Message-ID: All, I did another batch of argyrotypes and I like the process even more. I acidified the paper with sulfamic acid. I used Fabriano artistico soft press and Rising Stonehenge. Both papers printed beautifully, although somewhat different brown (FASP) to red-brown (RS) after development. The prints are still wet, and I am not sure if the tones will stay after drying. Gold toning with gold/thiocarbamate toner produced beautiful split toning for shorter toning times and then blue-black very dark prints for very long toning.Palladium toned print produced a brown-black tone very different from untoned print, although DMAX was lower then expecte, it need s to be exposed for longer time. The most exciting was platinum toning with gradual shift towards brown and black brown tones without much split shift, but noticeable increase in DMAX from untoned print. Nice clean highlights so far. I am using two baths of citric acid with some silver sulfamate sensitizer to neutralize chlorides in the tap water. The baths are 5g of oxalic acid/liter with a few drops of silver sulfamate in the first bath. I made 6 prints (8x11) without changing that baths. I am so excited about this process and the sulfamic acid acidification. I will post some pictures tomorrow once the prints are dry. I also tried sulfamic acid acidification of the first bath and it bleached the print very nicely, not too fast so it can be perhaps a very good handle for bleaching prints that are too dark. The thio fixing resulted in a slight increase in DMAX and a slight tone shift toward brown. In the 5 minute toning I did not see any loss of DMAX. Marek > From: C.Breukel at lumc.nl > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 09:01:56 +0000 > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf > > All these discussions make want to give Agryotype again, I wasn't too happy with the results on Simili Japon, but I did not use an acid treatment. > > Gold toning is not always suitable (at least to my taste), was Pt toning tried in combination with Agryotype, and if so could you share your procedure ? > > Thanks, > > Best, > > Cor > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From alt.list at albertonovo.it Tue May 14 05:56:39 2013 From: alt.list at albertonovo.it (Alberto Novo) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 07:56:39 +0200 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein and Ferrari red In-Reply-To: <13E5AEF5-A697-472A-8834-6BF7C6FE2D26@gmail.com> References: <13E5AEF5-A697-472A-8834-6BF7C6FE2D26@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20130514055639.32553.qmail@webmaildh3.aruba.it> Hi Chris, > But PR 254 is diketo pyrrollo-pyrole. Don't have any idea why that would make this happen instantly. Does anyone have a guess why this pigment causes instant coaglulation and precipitation of the casein??? Is it just an acidity thing or is it a metallic salt? It precipitated the casein into squishy curds. Never seen this happen so rapidly before... PR254 is not a metallic salt. Are you mixing pure pigment? I believe you are still using pure ammonium caseinate, right? As Marek suggested, it may be a matter of casein stock. What happens if you add a few drops of ammonia solution to your casein and then you add the pigment a little at a time? Alberto www.facebook.com/alberto.novo.1 www.grupponamias.com www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group From mail at loris.medici.name Tue May 14 07:40:59 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 10:40:59 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning In-Reply-To: References: <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather> <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org> <0b4501ce4d8d$a2e29990$e8a7ccb0$@aandy.org> <381f5eb3974bdf86fdd5f76fff151120@darrylbaird.com> <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A7242297FD@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern> Message-ID: Hi Marek, I'm glad that you like the results with Argyrotype on sulfamic acid treated FAEW/SP. Which surfactant were you using with FAEW/SP and how much? This paper has a lot of sizing / a very hard surface, therefore IME it needs relatively much more surfactant to give nice results w/o bleeding. Oxalic acid development bath is interesting, AFAIK, Mike Ware recommends a very mild citric acid solution for that job. I'll try it if I happen to experience problems with citric acid. (OTOH, citric acid never let me down in the last 8-9 years...) Waiting for your images! :) Loris 2013/5/14 Marek Matusz > > All, I did another batch of argyrotypes and I like the process even more. I acidified > the paper with sulfamic acid. I used Fabriano artistico soft press and Rising > Stonehenge. Both papers printed beautifully, although somewhat different brown > (FASP) to red-brown (RS) after development. The prints are still wet, and I am > not sure if the tones will stay after drying. Gold toning with gold/thiocarbamate > toner produced beautiful split toning for shorter toning times and then blue-black > very dark prints for very long toning.Palladium toned print produced a brown-black > tone very different from untoned print, although DMAX was lower then expecte, > it need s to be exposed for longer time. The most exciting was platinum toning > with gradual shift towards brown and black brown tones without much split shift, > but noticeable increase in DMAX from untoned print. Nice clean highlights so far. > I am using two baths of citric acid with some silver sulfamate sensitizer to neutralize > chlorides in the tap water. The baths are 5g of oxalic acid/liter with a few drops of > silver sulfamate in the first bath. I made 6 prints (8x11) without changing that baths. > I am so excited about this process and the sulfamic acid acidification. I will post > some pictures tomorrow once the prints are dry. I also tried sulfamic acid > acidification of the first bath and it bleached the print very nicely, not too fast so it > can be perhaps a very good handle for bleaching prints that are too dark. The thio > fixing resulted in a slight increase in DMAX and a slight tone shift toward brown. > In the 5 minute toning I did not see any loss of DMAX. > > Marek From sbilici at gmail.com Tue May 14 08:33:41 2013 From: sbilici at gmail.com (Serdar Bilici) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 11:33:41 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning In-Reply-To: References: , , <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather>, , <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org>, , <0b4501ce4d8d$a2e29990$e8a7ccb0$@aandy.org>, , , <381f5eb3974bdf86fdd5f76fff151120@darrylbaird.com>, , <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A7242297FD@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern> Message-ID: <0a3001ce507d$be2fc9a0$3a8f5ce0$@gmail.com> Hi Marek, I am looking forward to see toned argyrotypes. I had similar varieties of color with different papers. In my tests with Canson Montval (20C %65RH) I also had reddish tones, very much like colors of mahogany. One thing about oxalic acid, a quick search results tell that oxalic acid will react with silver and silver compounds forming explosive silver oxalate.I feel like you should re-consider oxalic acid use in silver processes, not because of explosive warning, but because it reacts with silver. Sulfamic acid as a bleacher works very effectively even at %0,1, I was curious about its effects especially with argyrotype, but it actually dissolves silver not bleaches it. That might be problematic imo. Best Regards Serdar -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Marek Matusz Sent: 14 May?s 2013 Sal? 08:15 To: alt photo Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning All, I did another batch of argyrotypes and I like the process even more. I acidified the paper with sulfamic acid. I used Fabriano artistico soft press and Rising Stonehenge. Both papers printed beautifully, although somewhat different brown (FASP) to red-brown (RS) after development. The prints are still wet, and I am not sure if the tones will stay after drying. Gold toning with gold/thiocarbamate toner produced beautiful split toning for shorter toning times and then blue-black very dark prints for very long toning.Palladium toned print produced a brown-black tone very different from untoned print, although DMAX was lower then expecte, it need s to be exposed for longer time. The most exciting was platinum toning with gradual shift towards brown and black brown tones without much split shift, but noticeable increase in DMAX from untoned print. Nice clean highlights so far. I am using two baths of citric acid with some silver sulfamate sensitizer to neutralize chlorides i n the tap water. The baths are 5g of oxalic acid/liter with a few drops of silver sulfamate in the first bath. I made 6 prints (8x11) without changing that baths. I am so excited about this process and the sulfamic acid acidification. I will post some pictures tomorrow once the prints are dry. I also tried sulfamic acid acidification of the first bath and it bleached the print very nicely, not too fast so it can be perhaps a very good handle for bleaching prints that are too dark. The thio fixing resulted in a slight increase in DMAX and a slight tone shift toward brown. In the 5 minute toning I did not see any loss of DMAX. Marek > From: C.Breukel at lumc.nl > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Date: Mon, 13 May 2013 09:01:56 +0000 > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic now VDB and pt/pd gold leaf > > All these discussions make want to give Agryotype again, I wasn't too happy with the results on Simili Japon, but I did not use an acid treatment. > > Gold toning is not always suitable (at least to my taste), was Pt toning tried in combination with Agryotype, and if so could you share your procedure ? > > Thanks, > > Best, > > Cor > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From workshops at polychrome.nl Tue May 14 11:46:17 2013 From: workshops at polychrome.nl (Kees Brandenburg) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 13:46:17 +0200 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein and Ferrari red In-Reply-To: <13E5AEF5-A697-472A-8834-6BF7C6FE2D26@gmail.com> References: <13E5AEF5-A697-472A-8834-6BF7C6FE2D26@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Chris, Tried Kremer XSL irgazin red PR 254 (powder igment) in casein. No problems! My casein mix is from casein powder with ammoniumcarbonate. Kees On 13 mei 2013, at 18:30, Christina Anderson wrote: > Dear All, > I have been working on a body of casein prints. Today I decided to use some PR254, that beautiful Ferrari Red (Daniel Smith Pyrrol Red, Da Vinci Red, Maimeri Sandal Red, M.Graham pyrrol red, Rembrandt permanent red deep, Schmincke scarlet, Sennelier red, Winsor red are some brand names). Works great with gum for a brilliant lipstick red. > > I mixed it up with my casein and it was instant curdle/coagulation of the casein! No problem at all with the usual colors, but with the metal salts as has been discussed on the list you can work with them but stock solutions will lump up in a brief time into insoluble chunks so I never mix stock casein anymore once I learned that lesson. However, with nickel azo yellow, for instance, one of my favorite yellows that lumps up, I can still use it if I mix it up right at time of use. Same with red iron oxide. > > But PR 254 is diketo pyrrollo-pyrole. Don't have any idea why that would make this happen instantly. Does anyone have a guess why this pigment causes instant coaglulation and precipitation of the casein??? Is it just an acidity thing or is it a metallic salt? It precipitated the casein into squishy curds. Never seen this happen so rapidly before... > > Any other casein printers experience colors that coagulate, or want to pull out their PR254 and see this happen? If you have, what colors? > Chris > > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Tue May 14 13:10:22 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 13:10:22 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning In-Reply-To: References: , , <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather>, , <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org>, , <0b4501ce4d8d$a2e29990$e8a7ccb0$@aandy.org>, , , <381f5eb3974bdf86fdd5f76fff151120@darrylbaird.com>, , <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A7242297FD@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern>, , Message-ID: WOW, MY MSITAKE I was using citric acid to acidify the developer, NOT oxalic acid. I said citric acid in the first sentence and then oxalic acid in the second. Its was CITRIC acid sorry for the typo Marek > Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 10:40:59 +0300 > From: mail at loris.medici.name > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning > > Hi Marek, I'm glad that you like the results with Argyrotype on sulfamic > acid treated FAEW/SP. Which surfactant were you using with FAEW/SP and how > much? This paper has a lot of sizing / a very hard surface, therefore IME > it needs relatively much more surfactant to give nice results w/o bleeding. > Oxalic acid development bath is interesting, AFAIK, Mike Ware recommends a > very mild citric acid solution for that job. I'll try it if I happen to > experience problems with citric acid. (OTOH, citric acid never let me down > in the last 8-9 years...) > > Waiting for your images! :) > Loris > > > 2013/5/14 Marek Matusz > > > > All, I did another batch of argyrotypes and I like the process even more. > I acidified > > the paper with sulfamic acid. I used Fabriano artistico soft press and > Rising > > Stonehenge. Both papers printed beautifully, although somewhat different > brown > > (FASP) to red-brown (RS) after development. The prints are still wet, and > I am > > not sure if the tones will stay after drying. Gold toning with > gold/thiocarbamate > > toner produced beautiful split toning for shorter toning times and then > blue-black > > very dark prints for very long toning.Palladium toned print produced a > brown-black > > tone very different from untoned print, although DMAX was lower then > expecte, > > it need s to be exposed for longer time. The most exciting was platinum > toning > > with gradual shift towards brown and black brown tones without much split > shift, > > but noticeable increase in DMAX from untoned print. Nice clean highlights > so far. > > I am using two baths of citric acid with some silver sulfamate sensitizer > to neutralize > > chlorides in the tap water. The baths are 5g of oxalic acid/liter with a > few drops of > > silver sulfamate in the first bath. I made 6 prints (8x11) without > changing that baths. > > I am so excited about this process and the sulfamic acid acidification. I > will post > > some pictures tomorrow once the prints are dry. I also tried sulfamic acid > > acidification of the first bath and it bleached the print very nicely, > not too fast so it > > can be perhaps a very good handle for bleaching prints that are too dark. > The thio > > fixing resulted in a slight increase in DMAX and a slight tone shift > toward brown. > > In the 5 minute toning I did not see any loss of DMAX. > > > > Marek > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Tue May 14 13:12:57 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 13:12:57 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein and Ferrari red In-Reply-To: References: <13E5AEF5-A697-472A-8834-6BF7C6FE2D26@gmail.com>, Message-ID: Kees, I use same type of casein mixed from powder and ammonium carbonate with a fair amount of preservative. Marek > From: workshops at polychrome.nl > Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 13:46:17 +0200 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein and Ferrari red > > Hi Chris, > > Tried Kremer XSL irgazin red PR 254 (powder igment) in casein. No problems! > My casein mix is from casein powder with ammoniumcarbonate. > > Kees > > > > > On 13 mei 2013, at 18:30, Christina Anderson wrote: > > > Dear All, > > I have been working on a body of casein prints. Today I decided to use some PR254, that beautiful Ferrari Red (Daniel Smith Pyrrol Red, Da Vinci Red, Maimeri Sandal Red, M.Graham pyrrol red, Rembrandt permanent red deep, Schmincke scarlet, Sennelier red, Winsor red are some brand names). Works great with gum for a brilliant lipstick red. > > > > I mixed it up with my casein and it was instant curdle/coagulation of the casein! No problem at all with the usual colors, but with the metal salts as has been discussed on the list you can work with them but stock solutions will lump up in a brief time into insoluble chunks so I never mix stock casein anymore once I learned that lesson. However, with nickel azo yellow, for instance, one of my favorite yellows that lumps up, I can still use it if I mix it up right at time of use. Same with red iron oxide. > > > > But PR 254 is diketo pyrrollo-pyrole. Don't have any idea why that would make this happen instantly. Does anyone have a guess why this pigment causes instant coaglulation and precipitation of the casein??? Is it just an acidity thing or is it a metallic salt? It precipitated the casein into squishy curds. Never seen this happen so rapidly before... > > > > Any other casein printers experience colors that coagulate, or want to pull out their PR254 and see this happen? If you have, what colors? > > Chris > > > > > > Christina Z. Anderson > > christinaZanderson.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From altguido at gmail.com Tue May 14 14:03:32 2013 From: altguido at gmail.com (Guido Ceuppens) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 16:03:32 +0200 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein and Ferrari red In-Reply-To: References: <13E5AEF5-A697-472A-8834-6BF7C6FE2D26@gmail.com> Message-ID: Christina, I have used casein with powder pigments and acrylic paints but never with aquarelle paints. I never saw the curdle or coagulation of the casein as you described. I have always used powder casein (different manufacturers/sources, but now Kremers) made up with ammonium carbonate, borax and lately simple household ammonia. I keep the casein mixture for not longer than about 3 days (it's so easy to mix) and the mix of pigment/paint, casein and dichromate for about 24 hours. Guido 2013/5/14 Marek Matusz > Kees, > > I use same type of casein mixed from powder and ammonium carbonate with a > fair amount of preservative. > > Marek > > > > From: workshops at polychrome.nl > > Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 13:46:17 +0200 > > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein and Ferrari red > > > > Hi Chris, > > > > Tried Kremer XSL irgazin red PR 254 (powder igment) in casein. No > problems! > > My casein mix is from casein powder with ammoniumcarbonate. > > > > Kees > > > > > > > > > > On 13 mei 2013, at 18:30, Christina Anderson < > christinazanderson at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Dear All, > > > I have been working on a body of casein prints. Today I decided to use > some PR254, that beautiful Ferrari Red (Daniel Smith Pyrrol Red, Da Vinci > Red, Maimeri Sandal Red, M.Graham pyrrol red, Rembrandt permanent red deep, > Schmincke scarlet, Sennelier red, Winsor red are some brand names). Works > great with gum for a brilliant lipstick red. > > > > > > I mixed it up with my casein and it was instant curdle/coagulation of > the casein! No problem at all with the usual colors, but with the metal > salts as has been discussed on the list you can work with them but stock > solutions will lump up in a brief time into insoluble chunks so I never mix > stock casein anymore once I learned that lesson. However, with nickel azo > yellow, for instance, one of my favorite yellows that lumps up, I can still > use it if I mix it up right at time of use. Same with red iron oxide. > > > > > > But PR 254 is diketo pyrrollo-pyrole. Don't have any idea why that > would make this happen instantly. Does anyone have a guess why this pigment > causes instant coaglulation and precipitation of the casein??? Is it just > an acidity thing or is it a metallic salt? It precipitated the casein into > squishy curds. Never seen this happen so rapidly before... > > > > > > Any other casein printers experience colors that coagulate, or want to > pull out their PR254 and see this happen? If you have, what colors? > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > Christina Z. Anderson > > > christinaZanderson.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > From christinazanderson at gmail.com Tue May 14 15:18:48 2013 From: christinazanderson at gmail.com (Christina Anderson) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 09:18:48 -0600 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein and Ferrari red In-Reply-To: References: <13E5AEF5-A697-472A-8834-6BF7C6FE2D26@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear All, So glad all of you use that color with no problem!! Here's a picture of the coagulation just in case you think I'm nuts :) I've also put at the same place my latest "two best friends" for colloid printing. http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=1953 After I made the post, I continued casein printing and an hour later when I looked at the mix the curdle had subsided into a usable solution! It was smooth again in other words. So now I was really puzzled. I even tested it in a print and it worked fine. So thank heavens PR254 is still fine. So I went and got a tube of PR254 and then my stock solution (PR254 mixed in gum arabic which I had used) and tried both. The PR254 tube worked fine enough, with a slight thickening. The stock solution (1 tube of PR254 mixed in 45ml gum arabic) immediately curdled the casein. So I took my Daniel Smith gum from the gallon container and mixed it into the casein and immediate curdle. I then tested gum arabic against water to see if it was added liquid and the water did not curdle it. Thus I have ascertained that gum in tandem with my casein solution is most likely the issue (it was 1/4 tsp of gum/pigment in 1 T casein), but I have never seen this happen before with all the layers I have done, since I started mixing up casein/pigment at time of use. I have to mix a new batch of casein today so I can mix fresh with the gum again and ascertain if the age of the casein is an issue, too. Marek, the nickel azo yellow working strength solution (I mixed 500ml of it, like I usually do gum arabic and the gum/pigment solutions last forever) precipitated hard chunks after 1 or 2 weeks. They were not usable. Hard curds, not soft curds like yesterday. But I have always used this pigment at time of use. I mix a tube of it in 45ml water to dilute it (it is SO strong) and then I use 1/4 tsp of that to 1 tsp-1T casein. It's just such a concentrated pigment I have a hard time measuring out the right "pea" size, but that's just me. My casein doesn't go bad, because I use either thymol or now sodium benzoate (1/4 tsp per 100ml solution) as a preservative. In the past, it would start thickish and then get watery over a period of time. Once I did not preserve it and left it in a warm car. Stupid me. What a smell. I threw all away, 250ml bottles and solution. Marek, you say you don't use your casein for a couple weeks after mixing. How come? I literally mix 'n go. Guido, so glad to hear from you!! You haven't posted in a long time! You might not know that you are quoted in my book! I was so surprised at your short exposures (20-30 seconds) when I first read them on an alt post you made years ago, but actually, this whole last period of time I have been exposing all layers at 45 seconds. Incredibly fast. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On May 14, 2013, at 8:03 AM, Guido Ceuppens wrote: > Christina, > I have used casein with powder pigments and acrylic paints but never with > aquarelle paints. I never saw the curdle or coagulation of the casein as > you described. I have always used powder casein (different > manufacturers/sources, > but now Kremers) made up with ammonium carbonate, borax and lately simple > household ammonia. I keep the casein mixture for not longer than about 3 > days (it's so easy to mix) and the mix of pigment/paint, casein and > dichromate for about 24 hours. > > Guido > > > 2013/5/14 Marek Matusz > >> Kees, >> >> I use same type of casein mixed from powder and ammonium carbonate with a >> fair amount of preservative. >> >> Marek >> >> >>> From: workshops at polychrome.nl >>> Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 13:46:17 +0200 >>> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >>> Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein and Ferrari red >>> >>> Hi Chris, >>> >>> Tried Kremer XSL irgazin red PR 254 (powder igment) in casein. No >> problems! >>> My casein mix is from casein powder with ammoniumcarbonate. >>> >>> Kees >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 13 mei 2013, at 18:30, Christina Anderson < >> christinazanderson at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Dear All, >>>> I have been working on a body of casein prints. Today I decided to use >> some PR254, that beautiful Ferrari Red (Daniel Smith Pyrrol Red, Da Vinci >> Red, Maimeri Sandal Red, M.Graham pyrrol red, Rembrandt permanent red deep, >> Schmincke scarlet, Sennelier red, Winsor red are some brand names). Works >> great with gum for a brilliant lipstick red. >>>> >>>> I mixed it up with my casein and it was instant curdle/coagulation of >> the casein! No problem at all with the usual colors, but with the metal >> salts as has been discussed on the list you can work with them but stock >> solutions will lump up in a brief time into insoluble chunks so I never mix >> stock casein anymore once I learned that lesson. However, with nickel azo >> yellow, for instance, one of my favorite yellows that lumps up, I can still >> use it if I mix it up right at time of use. Same with red iron oxide. >>>> >>>> But PR 254 is diketo pyrrollo-pyrole. Don't have any idea why that >> would make this happen instantly. Does anyone have a guess why this pigment >> causes instant coaglulation and precipitation of the casein??? Is it just >> an acidity thing or is it a metallic salt? It precipitated the casein into >> squishy curds. Never seen this happen so rapidly before... >>>> >>>> Any other casein printers experience colors that coagulate, or want to >> pull out their PR254 and see this happen? If you have, what colors? >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> >>>> Christina Z. Anderson >>>> christinaZanderson.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Tue May 14 18:32:04 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 18:32:04 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein and Ferrari red In-Reply-To: References: <13E5AEF5-A697-472A-8834-6BF7C6FE2D26@gmail.com>, , , , Message-ID: SO it seems that is not the pigments, but the additional gum that you mix with casein that is not compatible. I will test that with my solutions as well. On the subject of fresh vs. aged casein solution. The reason that I let my solution age for at least few days is that when freshly mixed it is very viscous and coats differntly. As the solution ages it becomes less viscous and eventually after a few days or a week it becomes the consisteny of 14baume gum. The change continues but at a much lower rate and I continue to use the solution for months I ended up with grainy prints when using freshly made solution (same or next day). Perhaps I could alter the concentrations, add more water, etc, but did not bother to look into it some more. On the other hand I actually liked the grainy look of the print a lot and wated to follow with tricolur. > From: christinazanderson at gmail.com > Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 09:18:48 -0600 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein and Ferrari red > > Dear All, > > So glad all of you use that color with no problem!! > > Here's a picture of the coagulation just in case you think I'm nuts :) I've also put at the same place my latest "two best friends" for colloid printing. > > http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=1953 > > After I made the post, I continued casein printing and an hour later when I looked at the mix the curdle had subsided into a usable solution! It was smooth again in other words. So now I was really puzzled. > > I even tested it in a print and it worked fine. So thank heavens PR254 is still fine. > > So I went and got a tube of PR254 and then my stock solution (PR254 mixed in gum arabic which I had used) and tried both. The PR254 tube worked fine enough, with a slight thickening. The stock solution (1 tube of PR254 mixed in 45ml gum arabic) immediately curdled the casein. > > So I took my Daniel Smith gum from the gallon container and mixed it into the casein and immediate curdle. > > I then tested gum arabic against water to see if it was added liquid and the water did not curdle it. > > Thus I have ascertained that gum in tandem with my casein solution is most likely the issue (it was 1/4 tsp of gum/pigment in 1 T casein), but I have never seen this happen before with all the layers I have done, since I started mixing up casein/pigment at time of use. I have to mix a new batch of casein today so I can mix fresh with the gum again and ascertain if the age of the casein is an issue, too. > > Marek, the nickel azo yellow working strength solution (I mixed 500ml of it, like I usually do gum arabic and the gum/pigment solutions last forever) precipitated hard chunks after 1 or 2 weeks. They were not usable. Hard curds, not soft curds like yesterday. But I have always used this pigment at time of use. I mix a tube of it in 45ml water to dilute it (it is SO strong) and then I use 1/4 tsp of that to 1 tsp-1T casein. It's just such a concentrated pigment I have a hard time measuring out the right "pea" size, but that's just me. > > My casein doesn't go bad, because I use either thymol or now sodium benzoate (1/4 tsp per 100ml solution) as a preservative. In the past, it would start thickish and then get watery over a period of time. Once I did not preserve it and left it in a warm car. Stupid me. What a smell. I threw all away, 250ml bottles and solution. > > Marek, you say you don't use your casein for a couple weeks after mixing. How come? I literally mix 'n go. > > Guido, so glad to hear from you!! You haven't posted in a long time! You might not know that you are quoted in my book! I was so surprised at your short exposures (20-30 seconds) when I first read them on an alt post you made years ago, but actually, this whole last period of time I have been exposing all layers at 45 seconds. Incredibly fast. > Chris > > > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > On May 14, 2013, at 8:03 AM, Guido Ceuppens wrote: > > > Christina, > > I have used casein with powder pigments and acrylic paints but never with > > aquarelle paints. I never saw the curdle or coagulation of the casein as > > you described. I have always used powder casein (different > > manufacturers/sources, > > but now Kremers) made up with ammonium carbonate, borax and lately simple > > household ammonia. I keep the casein mixture for not longer than about 3 > > days (it's so easy to mix) and the mix of pigment/paint, casein and > > dichromate for about 24 hours. > > > > Guido > > > > > > 2013/5/14 Marek Matusz > > > >> Kees, > >> > >> I use same type of casein mixed from powder and ammonium carbonate with a > >> fair amount of preservative. > >> > >> Marek > >> > >> > >>> From: workshops at polychrome.nl > >>> Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 13:46:17 +0200 > >>> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > >>> Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein and Ferrari red > >>> > >>> Hi Chris, > >>> > >>> Tried Kremer XSL irgazin red PR 254 (powder igment) in casein. No > >> problems! > >>> My casein mix is from casein powder with ammoniumcarbonate. > >>> > >>> Kees > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 13 mei 2013, at 18:30, Christina Anderson < > >> christinazanderson at gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Dear All, > >>>> I have been working on a body of casein prints. Today I decided to use > >> some PR254, that beautiful Ferrari Red (Daniel Smith Pyrrol Red, Da Vinci > >> Red, Maimeri Sandal Red, M.Graham pyrrol red, Rembrandt permanent red deep, > >> Schmincke scarlet, Sennelier red, Winsor red are some brand names). Works > >> great with gum for a brilliant lipstick red. > >>>> > >>>> I mixed it up with my casein and it was instant curdle/coagulation of > >> the casein! No problem at all with the usual colors, but with the metal > >> salts as has been discussed on the list you can work with them but stock > >> solutions will lump up in a brief time into insoluble chunks so I never mix > >> stock casein anymore once I learned that lesson. However, with nickel azo > >> yellow, for instance, one of my favorite yellows that lumps up, I can still > >> use it if I mix it up right at time of use. Same with red iron oxide. > >>>> > >>>> But PR 254 is diketo pyrrollo-pyrole. Don't have any idea why that > >> would make this happen instantly. Does anyone have a guess why this pigment > >> causes instant coaglulation and precipitation of the casein??? Is it just > >> an acidity thing or is it a metallic salt? It precipitated the casein into > >> squishy curds. Never seen this happen so rapidly before... > >>>> > >>>> Any other casein printers experience colors that coagulate, or want to > >> pull out their PR254 and see this happen? If you have, what colors? > >>>> Chris > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Christina Z. Anderson > >>>> christinaZanderson.com > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From christinazanderson at gmail.com Tue May 14 19:22:29 2013 From: christinazanderson at gmail.com (Christina Anderson) Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 13:22:29 -0600 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein and Ferrari red In-Reply-To: References: <13E5AEF5-A697-472A-8834-6BF7C6FE2D26@gmail.com>, , , , Message-ID: Marek, AHA. That makes sense. I am using a 10% solution ammonium caseinate and don't notice a viscosity difference much, but when I used to use the other caseins and homemade cottage cheese casein I would notice that, so that would be a good tip to know. The ammonia form stays pretty stable. I just mixed up 500ml of fresh caseinate and tried the pigment in one petri dish and the plain gum in another and the pigment alone did thicken the casein somewhat and create smallish lumps but with stirring went into solution. The gum definitely made the casein instantly thicken. I don't normally use gum in my mixes, and this is why I have not observed this before, I think, always using powdered pigments in small batches. Just lately I have been "using up" stuff in the dimroom, including my stock solutions and tube pigments. So I just did another test. I can't believe I am wasting my day doing this :) I added lemon juice to the casein solution and instant curds. I added ammonia then to the lemon juice/casein. Curds back in solution. So I am pretty sure (always an exception) that the acidity is the factor, which could vary between pigments and gums and casein for that matter...and account for my not noticing this before. See here I even documented my experiment again: http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=1953 As far as grainy, I'm there with you! I have been attempting to get a sort of autochrome look with prints, that very fine grain effect, without the occasional worms because I can't figure that one out! Casein comes very close when I spray layers liberally during development. The grain is very fine and soft. If I were to use the same force with gum, it would flake. I am sort of un-confident about this latest body of work because I have exploited the grain and softness and imperfections with mechanical development methods. I'm hoping that translates to the viewer but it is always a crap shoot. Hey, the worst I could do is waste weeks of my life, because it really is NOT expensive to do 60 prints. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On May 14, 2013, at 12:32 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > SO it seems that is not the pigments, but the additional gum that you mix with casein that is not compatible. I will test that with my solutions as well. > On the subject of fresh vs. aged casein solution. > > The reason that I let my solution age for at least few days is that when freshly mixed it is very viscous and coats differntly. As the solution ages it becomes less viscous and eventually after a few days or a week it becomes the consisteny of 14baume gum. The change continues but at a much lower rate and I continue to use the solution for months > > I ended up with grainy prints when using freshly made solution (same or next day). Perhaps I could alter the concentrations, add more water, etc, but did not bother to look into it some more. On the other hand I actually liked the grainy look of the print a lot and wated to follow with tricolur. > > > >> From: christinazanderson at gmail.com >> Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 09:18:48 -0600 >> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >> Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein and Ferrari red >> >> Dear All, >> >> So glad all of you use that color with no problem!! >> >> Here's a picture of the coagulation just in case you think I'm nuts :) I've also put at the same place my latest "two best friends" for colloid printing. >> >> http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=1953 >> >> After I made the post, I continued casein printing and an hour later when I looked at the mix the curdle had subsided into a usable solution! It was smooth again in other words. So now I was really puzzled. >> >> I even tested it in a print and it worked fine. So thank heavens PR254 is still fine. >> >> So I went and got a tube of PR254 and then my stock solution (PR254 mixed in gum arabic which I had used) and tried both. The PR254 tube worked fine enough, with a slight thickening. The stock solution (1 tube of PR254 mixed in 45ml gum arabic) immediately curdled the casein. >> >> So I took my Daniel Smith gum from the gallon container and mixed it into the casein and immediate curdle. >> >> I then tested gum arabic against water to see if it was added liquid and the water did not curdle it. >> >> Thus I have ascertained that gum in tandem with my casein solution is most likely the issue (it was 1/4 tsp of gum/pigment in 1 T casein), but I have never seen this happen before with all the layers I have done, since I started mixing up casein/pigment at time of use. I have to mix a new batch of casein today so I can mix fresh with the gum again and ascertain if the age of the casein is an issue, too. >> >> Marek, the nickel azo yellow working strength solution (I mixed 500ml of it, like I usually do gum arabic and the gum/pigment solutions last forever) precipitated hard chunks after 1 or 2 weeks. They were not usable. Hard curds, not soft curds like yesterday. But I have always used this pigment at time of use. I mix a tube of it in 45ml water to dilute it (it is SO strong) and then I use 1/4 tsp of that to 1 tsp-1T casein. It's just such a concentrated pigment I have a hard time measuring out the right "pea" size, but that's just me. >> >> My casein doesn't go bad, because I use either thymol or now sodium benzoate (1/4 tsp per 100ml solution) as a preservative. In the past, it would start thickish and then get watery over a period of time. Once I did not preserve it and left it in a warm car. Stupid me. What a smell. I threw all away, 250ml bottles and solution. >> >> Marek, you say you don't use your casein for a couple weeks after mixing. How come? I literally mix 'n go. >> >> Guido, so glad to hear from you!! You haven't posted in a long time! You might not know that you are quoted in my book! I was so surprised at your short exposures (20-30 seconds) when I first read them on an alt post you made years ago, but actually, this whole last period of time I have been exposing all layers at 45 seconds. Incredibly fast. >> Chris >> >> >> >> Christina Z. Anderson >> christinaZanderson.com >> >> On May 14, 2013, at 8:03 AM, Guido Ceuppens wrote: >> >>> Christina, >>> I have used casein with powder pigments and acrylic paints but never with >>> aquarelle paints. I never saw the curdle or coagulation of the casein as >>> you described. I have always used powder casein (different >>> manufacturers/sources, >>> but now Kremers) made up with ammonium carbonate, borax and lately simple >>> household ammonia. I keep the casein mixture for not longer than about 3 >>> days (it's so easy to mix) and the mix of pigment/paint, casein and >>> dichromate for about 24 hours. >>> >>> Guido >>> >>> >>> 2013/5/14 Marek Matusz >>> >>>> Kees, >>>> >>>> I use same type of casein mixed from powder and ammonium carbonate with a >>>> fair amount of preservative. >>>> >>>> Marek >>>> >>>> >>>>> From: workshops at polychrome.nl >>>>> Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 13:46:17 +0200 >>>>> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >>>>> Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein and Ferrari red >>>>> >>>>> Hi Chris, >>>>> >>>>> Tried Kremer XSL irgazin red PR 254 (powder igment) in casein. No >>>> problems! >>>>> My casein mix is from casein powder with ammoniumcarbonate. >>>>> >>>>> Kees >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 13 mei 2013, at 18:30, Christina Anderson < >>>> christinazanderson at gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Dear All, >>>>>> I have been working on a body of casein prints. Today I decided to use >>>> some PR254, that beautiful Ferrari Red (Daniel Smith Pyrrol Red, Da Vinci >>>> Red, Maimeri Sandal Red, M.Graham pyrrol red, Rembrandt permanent red deep, >>>> Schmincke scarlet, Sennelier red, Winsor red are some brand names). Works >>>> great with gum for a brilliant lipstick red. >>>>>> >>>>>> I mixed it up with my casein and it was instant curdle/coagulation of >>>> the casein! No problem at all with the usual colors, but with the metal >>>> salts as has been discussed on the list you can work with them but stock >>>> solutions will lump up in a brief time into insoluble chunks so I never mix >>>> stock casein anymore once I learned that lesson. However, with nickel azo >>>> yellow, for instance, one of my favorite yellows that lumps up, I can still >>>> use it if I mix it up right at time of use. Same with red iron oxide. >>>>>> >>>>>> But PR 254 is diketo pyrrollo-pyrole. Don't have any idea why that >>>> would make this happen instantly. Does anyone have a guess why this pigment >>>> causes instant coaglulation and precipitation of the casein??? Is it just >>>> an acidity thing or is it a metallic salt? It precipitated the casein into >>>> squishy curds. Never seen this happen so rapidly before... >>>>>> >>>>>> Any other casein printers experience colors that coagulate, or want to >>>> pull out their PR254 and see this happen? If you have, what colors? >>>>>> Chris >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Christina Z. Anderson >>>>>> christinaZanderson.com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Wed May 15 02:23:32 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 02:23:32 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning In-Reply-To: References: , , , , <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather>, , , , <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org>, , , , <0b4501ce4d8d$a2e29990$e8a7ccb0$@aandy.org>, , , , , , <381f5eb3974bdf86fdd5f76fff151120@darrylbaird.com>, , , , <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A7242297FD@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern>, , , , , Message-ID: A few examples of argyrotypes on Rising Stonehendge paper treated with sulfamic acid. Untoned print also gold and platinum toning examples https://plus.google.com/photos/105732508998271877151/albums/5878024532012592449?authkey=CMaWrqn036yO6AE Marek From C.Breukel at lumc.nl Wed May 15 06:55:01 2013 From: C.Breukel at lumc.nl (C.Breukel at lumc.nl) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 06:55:01 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning In-Reply-To: References: , , , , <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather>, , , , <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org>, , , , <0b4501ce4d8d$a2e29990$e8a7ccb0$@aandy.org>, , , , , , <381f5eb3974bdf86fdd5f76fff151120@darrylbaird.com>, , , , <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A7242297FD@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern>, , , , , Message-ID: <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A724229C75@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern> Hi Marek, Thanks for sharing, very interesting! What kind of platinum toner did you use exactly ? Best, Cor -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Marek Matusz Sent: woensdag 15 mei 2013 4:24 To: alt photo Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning A few examples of argyrotypes on Rising Stonehendge paper treated with sulfamic acid. Untoned print also gold and platinum toning examples https://plus.google.com/photos/105732508998271877151/albums/5878024532012592449?authkey=CMaWrqn036yO6AE Marek _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Wed May 15 07:50:10 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 10:50:10 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning In-Reply-To: References: <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather> <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org> <0b4501ce4d8d$a2e29990$e8a7ccb0$@aandy.org> <381f5eb3974bdf86fdd5f76fff151120@darrylbaird.com> <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A7242297FD@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern> Message-ID: Hi Marek they look nice, thanks for sharing. The result with gold toner look very much like what I get; somehow, you can't totally neutralize the warmth in the deepest shadows - a very dark and slight reddish / magenta tint remains... Regards, Loris. 2013/5/15 Marek Matusz > > > A few examples of argyrotypes on Rising Stonehendge paper treated with > sulfamic acid. Untoned print also gold and platinum toning examples > https://plus.google.com/photos/105732508998271877151/albums/5878024532012592449?authkey=CMaWrqn036yO6AE Marek > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > From mail at loris.medici.name Wed May 15 10:05:29 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 13:05:29 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein and Ferrari red In-Reply-To: References: <13E5AEF5-A697-472A-8834-6BF7C6FE2D26@gmail.com> Message-ID: Wow, great conversation guys! Very useful insight below... Thanks! 2013/5/14 Marek Matusz > > SO it seems that is not the pigments, but the additional gum that you mix with casein that is not compatible. I will test that with my solutions as well. > On the subject of fresh vs. aged casein solution. > > The reason that I let my solution age for at least few days is that when freshly mixed it is very viscous and coats differntly. As the solution ages it becomes less viscous and eventually after a few days or a week it becomes the consisteny of 14baume gum. The change continues but at a much lower rate and I continue to use the solution for months > > I ended up with grainy prints when using freshly made solution (same or next day). Perhaps I could alter the concentrations, add more water, etc, but did not bother to look into it some more. On the other hand I actually liked the grainy look of the print a lot and wated to follow with tricolur. > > > > > From: christinazanderson at gmail.com > > Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 09:18:48 -0600 > > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein and Ferrari red > > > > Dear All, > > > > So glad all of you use that color with no problem!! > > > > Here's a picture of the coagulation just in case you think I'm nuts :) I've also put at the same place my latest "two best friends" for colloid printing. > > > > http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=1953 > > > > After I made the post, I continued casein printing and an hour later when I looked at the mix the curdle had subsided into a usable solution! It was smooth again in other words. So now I was really puzzled. > > > > I even tested it in a print and it worked fine. So thank heavens PR254 is still fine. > > > > So I went and got a tube of PR254 and then my stock solution (PR254 mixed in gum arabic which I had used) and tried both. The PR254 tube worked fine enough, with a slight thickening. The stock solution (1 tube of PR254 mixed in 45ml gum arabic) immediately curdled the casein. > > > > So I took my Daniel Smith gum from the gallon container and mixed it into the casein and immediate curdle. > > > > I then tested gum arabic against water to see if it was added liquid and the water did not curdle it. > > > > Thus I have ascertained that gum in tandem with my casein solution is most likely the issue (it was 1/4 tsp of gum/pigment in 1 T casein), but I have never seen this happen before with all the layers I have done, since I started mixing up casein/pigment at time of use. I have to mix a new batch of casein today so I can mix fresh with the gum again and ascertain if the age of the casein is an issue, too. > > > > Marek, the nickel azo yellow working strength solution (I mixed 500ml of it, like I usually do gum arabic and the gum/pigment solutions last forever) precipitated hard chunks after 1 or 2 weeks. They were not usable. Hard curds, not soft curds like yesterday. But I have always used this pigment at time of use. I mix a tube of it in 45ml water to dilute it (it is SO strong) and then I use 1/4 tsp of that to 1 tsp-1T casein. It's just such a concentrated pigment I have a hard time measuring out the right "pea" size, but that's just me. > > > > My casein doesn't go bad, because I use either thymol or now sodium benzoate (1/4 tsp per 100ml solution) as a preservative. In the past, it would start thickish and then get watery over a period of time. Once I did not preserve it and left it in a warm car. Stupid me. What a smell. I threw all away, 250ml bottles and solution. > > > > Marek, you say you don't use your casein for a couple weeks after mixing. How come? I literally mix 'n go. > > > > Guido, so glad to hear from you!! You haven't posted in a long time! You might not know that you are quoted in my book! I was so surprised at your short exposures (20-30 seconds) when I first read them on an alt post you made years ago, but actually, this whole last period of time I have been exposing all layers at 45 seconds. Incredibly fast. > > Chris From sanking at clemson.edu Wed May 15 13:37:44 2013 From: sanking at clemson.edu (Sandy King) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 09:37:44 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning In-Reply-To: References: <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather> <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org> <0b4501ce4d8d$a2e29990$e8a7ccb0$@aandy.org> <381f5eb3974bdf86fdd5f76fff151120@darrylbaird.com> <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A7242297FD@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern> Message-ID: <82EE6199-9057-417F-8795-A2E330E20709@clemson.edu> Loris, If you tone a vandyke or argyrotype print to completion with a gold thiourea toner the deepest shadows should have a distinctive bluish-black color. If the tone that remains is slightly reddish/magenta/purplish the toner has not done its job. The toner may be weak, or you might need to use more of it. I have noticed that some of the my batches of gold thioura toner do not seem to work as effectively as in the past and have wondered what could be the cause. It would seem that the gold chloride, distilled water and salt would remain stable, wonder if the chemical thiourea goes bad? Sandy On May 15, 2013, at 3:50 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > Hi Marek they look nice, thanks for sharing. The result with gold toner > look very much like what I get; somehow, you can't totally neutralize the > warmth in the deepest shadows - a very dark and slight reddish / magenta > tint remains... > > Regards, > Loris. > > > 2013/5/15 Marek Matusz > >> >> >> A few examples of argyrotypes on Rising Stonehendge paper treated with >> sulfamic acid. Untoned print also gold and platinum toning examples >> https://plus.google.com/photos/105732508998271877151/albums/5878024532012592449?authkey=CMaWrqn036yO6AE Marek >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Wed May 15 13:49:24 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 16:49:24 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning In-Reply-To: <82EE6199-9057-417F-8795-A2E330E20709@clemson.edu> References: <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather> <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org> <0b4501ce4d8d$a2e29990$e8a7ccb0$@aandy.org> <381f5eb3974bdf86fdd5f76fff151120@darrylbaird.com> <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A7242297FD@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern> <82EE6199-9057-417F-8795-A2E330E20709@clemson.edu> Message-ID: Hi Sandy, I agree for Vandykes (same results here, since the beginning), but I yet have to manage to get fully blue-black (from highlights to shadows) gold toned prints with Argyrotype, the deepest shadows remain very slightly warm against the mid tones and highlights... Perhaps it due the addition of glycerin to the stock solution, do you add glycerin? The shelf life / stability of the toner is good but can't be considered stable; I haven't used toner older than 3 months, I mix 1000-2000ml small batches... I do it that way since I saw gold deposits on the sides of the bottle that was sitting around 5-6 months. (Maybe it started to deposit earlier - I can't be sure, it was waiting my attention in the closet...) OTOH, my gold salt is different than what you all use; I don't have access to straight gold chloride (can't buy it locally) therefore I use locally avaiable potassium tetrachloroaurate. Regards, Loris. 2013/5/15 Sandy King > > Loris, > > If you tone a vandyke or argyrotype print to completion with a gold thiourea > toner the deepest shadows should have a distinctive bluish-black color. If > the tone that remains is slightly reddish/magenta/purplish the toner has not > done its job. The toner may be weak, or you might need to use more of it. > > I have noticed that some of the my batches of gold thioura toner do not > seem to work as effectively as in the past and have wondered what could > be the cause. It would seem that the gold chloride, distilled water and salt > would remain stable, wonder if the chemical thiourea goes bad? > > Sandy > > > On May 15, 2013, at 3:50 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > > > Hi Marek they look nice, thanks for sharing. The result with gold toner > > look very much like what I get; somehow, you can't totally neutralize the > > warmth in the deepest shadows - a very dark and slight reddish / magenta > > tint remains... From christinazanderson at gmail.com Wed May 15 13:59:15 2013 From: christinazanderson at gmail.com (Christina Anderson) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 07:59:15 -0600 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning In-Reply-To: References: , , , , <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather>, , , , <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org>, , , , <0b4501ce4d8d$a2e29990$e8a7ccb0$@aandy.org>, , , , , , <381f5eb3974bdf86fdd5f76fff151120@darrylbaird.com>, , , , <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A7242297FD@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern>, , , , , Message-ID: <4895AFCB-32EA-46C8-94E4-464069C6FDE5@gmail.com> Wow, Marek, I love the changes in these prints. I am really surprised how blue the gold toner takes the image! I don't know which one I like better, but on first glance, being a warm-biased person, I love the original argyrotype. I'm going to have to get some gold toner, though. Thanks for sharing. It is so glorious to be able to post images somewhere to look at when we are having these discussions. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On May 14, 2013, at 8:23 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > > > A few examples of argyrotypes on Rising Stonehendge paper treated with sulfamic acid. Untoned print also gold and platinum toning examples https://plus.google.com/photos/105732508998271877151/albums/5878024532012592449?authkey=CMaWrqn036yO6AE Marek > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From jorj at jorj.org Wed May 15 14:08:59 2013 From: jorj at jorj.org (Jorj Bauer) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 10:08:59 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning In-Reply-To: <4895AFCB-32EA-46C8-94E4-464069C6FDE5@gmail.com> References: , , , , <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather>, , , , <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org>, , , , <0b4501ce4d8d$a2e29990$e8a7ccb0$@aandy.org>, , , , , , <381f5eb3974bdf86fdd5f76fff151120@darrylbaird.com>, , , , <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A7242297FD@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern>, , , , , <4895AFCB-32EA-46C8-94E4-464069C6FD E5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <35C8070D-587A-49CA-9296-81EE19D85625@jorj.org> If my experience with gold-toned kallitypes is anything to go by, I bet it would go father to purple with a higher concentration of gold. And with a lower concentration, a more neutral gray. Definitely my favorite toner these days. -- Jorj On May 15, 2013, at 9:59 AM, Christina Anderson wrote: > Wow, Marek, > I love the changes in these prints. I am really surprised how blue the gold toner takes the image! I don't know which one I like better, but on first glance, being a warm-biased person, I love the original argyrotype. I'm going to have to get some gold toner, though. Thanks for sharing. It is so glorious to be able to post images somewhere to look at when we are having these discussions. > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > On May 14, 2013, at 8:23 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > >> >> >> A few examples of argyrotypes on Rising Stonehendge paper treated with sulfamic acid. Untoned print also gold and platinum toning examples https://plus.google.com/photos/105732508998271877151/albums/5878024532012592449?authkey=CMaWrqn036yO6AE Marek >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Wed May 15 14:31:29 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 14:31:29 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning In-Reply-To: <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A724229C75@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern> References: , ,,, ,,<28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather>, ,,, ,,<0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org>, ,,, ,,<0b4501ce4d8d$a2e29990$e8a7ccb0$@aandy.org>, ,,, ,,, ,,<381f5eb3974bdf86fdd5f76fff151120@darrylbaird.com>, ,,, ,,<19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A7242297FD@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern>, ,,, , , , , , , <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A724229C75@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern> Message-ID: Cor It was 5 tespoons (20g) of salt, 1 tespoon of tartaric acid and a dash of platinum printing solution, maybe 3 ml. I have had this platinum solution for years. I think it is K2PtCl4 ( I am not at my darkroom now), the platinum salt used for platinum printing, it is not the platinum contrasting agent Na2PtCL6. Toning was quick, 1-3 minutes with absolutely no highlight staining. Marek > From: C.Breukel at lumc.nl > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 06:55:01 +0000 > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning > > Hi Marek, > > Thanks for sharing, very interesting! What kind of platinum toner did you use exactly ? > > Best, > > Cor > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Marek Matusz > Sent: woensdag 15 mei 2013 4:24 > To: alt photo > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning > > > > A few examples of argyrotypes on Rising Stonehendge paper treated with sulfamic acid. Untoned print also gold and platinum toning examples https://plus.google.com/photos/105732508998271877151/albums/5878024532012592449?authkey=CMaWrqn036yO6AE Marek > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From C.Breukel at lumc.nl Wed May 15 14:58:33 2013 From: C.Breukel at lumc.nl (C.Breukel at lumc.nl) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 14:58:33 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning In-Reply-To: References: , ,,, ,,<28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather>, ,,, ,,<0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org>, ,,, ,,<0b4501ce4d8d$a2e29990$e8a7ccb0$@aandy.org>, ,,, ,,, ,,<381f5eb3974bdf86fdd5f76fff151120@darrylbaird.com>, ,,, ,,<19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A7242297FD@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern>, ,,, , , , , , , <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A724229C75@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern> Message-ID: <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A724229D95@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern> Thanks, Marek ! With salt you mean NaCL ("table salt" ) I assume ? How long did the toner last ? Thanks, Cor -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Marek Matusz Sent: woensdag 15 mei 2013 16:31 To: alt photo Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning Cor It was 5 tespoons (20g) of salt, 1 tespoon of tartaric acid and a dash of platinum printing solution, maybe 3 ml. I have had this platinum solution for years. I think it is K2PtCl4 ( I am not at my darkroom now), the platinum salt used for platinum printing, it is not the platinum contrasting agent Na2PtCL6. Toning was quick, 1-3 minutes with absolutely no highlight staining. Marek > From: C.Breukel at lumc.nl > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 06:55:01 +0000 > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning > > Hi Marek, > > Thanks for sharing, very interesting! What kind of platinum toner did you use exactly ? > > Best, > > Cor > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On > Behalf Of Marek Matusz > Sent: woensdag 15 mei 2013 4:24 > To: alt photo > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning > > > > A few examples of argyrotypes on Rising Stonehendge paper treated with > sulfamic acid. Untoned print also gold and platinum toning examples > https://plus.google.com/photos/105732508998271877151/albums/5878024532 > 012592449?authkey=CMaWrqn036yO6AE Marek > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Wed May 15 15:08:51 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 15:08:51 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning In-Reply-To: <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A724229D95@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern> References: , , , , , , , , <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather>, , , , , , , , <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org>, , , , , , , , <0b4501ce4d8d$a2e29990$e8a7ccb0$@aandy.org>, , , , , , , , , , , , <381f5eb3974bdf86fdd5f76fff151120@darrylbaird.com>, , , , , , , , <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A7242297FD@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern>, , , , , , ,,, , , , , , , <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A724229C75@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern>, , <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A724229D95@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern> Message-ID: Yes, It was NaCl, I am not sure which question you are asking. Shelf life of the solution: don't know, just mixed it a few days ago Capacity for toning: don't know. I tooned just two 8x11 prints, but I am not sure how much platinum I added. I kind of mixed it on the fly and it might not be a standard platinum toner. Marek > From: C.Breukel at lumc.nl > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 14:58:33 +0000 > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning > > Thanks, Marek ! > > With salt you mean NaCL ("table salt" ) I assume ? > > How long did the toner last ? > > Thanks, > > Cor > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Marek Matusz > Sent: woensdag 15 mei 2013 16:31 > To: alt photo > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning > > Cor > > > > It was 5 tespoons (20g) of salt, 1 tespoon of tartaric acid and a dash of platinum printing solution, maybe 3 ml. I have had this platinum solution for years. I think it is K2PtCl4 ( I am not at my darkroom now), the platinum salt used for platinum printing, it is not the platinum contrasting agent Na2PtCL6. Toning was quick, 1-3 minutes with absolutely no highlight staining. > > > > Marek > > > > From: C.Breukel at lumc.nl > > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > > Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 06:55:01 +0000 > > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning > > > > Hi Marek, > > > > Thanks for sharing, very interesting! What kind of platinum toner did you use exactly ? > > > > Best, > > > > Cor > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On > > Behalf Of Marek Matusz > > Sent: woensdag 15 mei 2013 4:24 > > To: alt photo > > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning > > > > > > > > A few examples of argyrotypes on Rising Stonehendge paper treated with > > sulfamic acid. Untoned print also gold and platinum toning examples > > https://plus.google.com/photos/105732508998271877151/albums/5878024532 > > 012592449?authkey=CMaWrqn036yO6AE Marek > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From bobkiss at caribsurf.com Wed May 15 19:29:46 2013 From: bobkiss at caribsurf.com (BOB KISS) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 15:29:46 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] SOURCE FOR KAOLIN IN US? Message-ID: DEAR LIST, I am hoping to find some kaolin to keep my silver nitrate solutions for salt and albumen clear but haven?t been able to find any at all in Barbados. I checked B&S and Photog?s Formulary and they don?t seem to have any either or did I miss something? Do any of you know of a source of the proper kaolin in the US to clear organic material out of our silver nitrate solutions? CHEERS! BOB Please check my website: http://www.bobkiss.com/ "Live as if you are going to die tomorrow. Learn as if you are going to live forever". Mahatma Gandhi "Earth" without "art" is just "Eh"! (Anonymous graffiti posted on Facebook) ?Madonne e fiori, trionfo eterno di giovent?!? from Mattinata Fiorentina by Antonella Ruggiero __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8337 (20130515) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com From don at sweetlegal.co.nz Wed May 15 19:58:45 2013 From: don at sweetlegal.co.nz (Don Sweet) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 07:58:45 +1200 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: SOURCE FOR KAOLIN IN US? References: Message-ID: <000901ce51a6$a1843460$0502a8c0@east> Hi Bob Try a beauty therapist supplier - it seems to be used for face packs. You can improve your complexion while clearing your solutions. Don Sweet ----- Original Message ----- From: "BOB KISS" To: Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 7:29 AM Subject: [Alt-photo] SOURCE FOR KAOLIN IN US? DEAR LIST, I am hoping to find some kaolin to keep my silver nitrate solutions for salt and albumen clear but haven't been able to find any at all in Barbados. I checked B&S and Photog's Formulary and they don't seem to have any either.or did I miss something? Do any of you know of a source of the proper kaolin in the US to clear organic material out of our silver nitrate solutions? CHEERS! BOB Please check my website: http://www.bobkiss.com/ "Live as if you are going to die tomorrow. Learn as if you are going to live forever". Mahatma Gandhi "Earth" without "art" is just "Eh"! (Anonymous graffiti posted on Facebook) "Madonne e fiori, trionfo eterno di giovent?!" from Mattinata Fiorentina by Antonella Ruggiero __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8337 (20130515) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From don at sweetlegal.co.nz Wed May 15 20:11:36 2013 From: don at sweetlegal.co.nz (Don Sweet) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 08:11:36 +1200 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning References: <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org> <0b4501ce4d8d$a2e29990$e8a7ccb0$@aandy.org> <381f5eb3974bdf86fdd5f76fff151120@darrylbaird.com> <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A7242297FD@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern> <82EE6199-9057-417F-8795-A2E330E20709@clemson.edu> Message-ID: <002201ce51a8$6b763e70$0502a8c0@east> Hi Loris Is there any way to get those gold deposits back into solution? Don Sweet ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loris Medici" To: "The alternative photographic processes mailing list" Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 1:49 AM Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning > Hi Sandy, I agree for Vandykes (same results here, since the beginning), > but I yet have to manage to get fully blue-black (from highlights to > shadows) gold toned prints with Argyrotype, the deepest shadows remain very > slightly warm against the mid tones and highlights... Perhaps it due the > addition of glycerin to the stock solution, do you add glycerin? > > The shelf life / stability of the toner is good but can't be considered > stable; I haven't used toner older than 3 months, I mix 1000-2000ml small > batches... I do it that way since I saw gold deposits on the sides of the > bottle that was sitting around 5-6 months. (Maybe it started to deposit > earlier - I can't be sure, it was waiting my attention in the closet...) > OTOH, my gold salt is different than what you all use; I don't have access > to straight gold chloride (can't buy it locally) therefore I use locally > avaiable potassium tetrachloroaurate. > > Regards, > Loris. > > > 2013/5/15 Sandy King > > > > Loris, > > > > If you tone a vandyke or argyrotype print to completion with a gold > thiourea > > toner the deepest shadows should have a distinctive bluish-black color. If > > the tone that remains is slightly reddish/magenta/purplish the toner has > not > > done its job. The toner may be weak, or you might need to use more of it. > > > > I have noticed that some of the my batches of gold thioura toner do not > > seem to work as effectively as in the past and have wondered what could > > be the cause. It would seem that the gold chloride, distilled water and > salt > > would remain stable, wonder if the chemical thiourea goes bad? > > > > Sandy > > > > > > On May 15, 2013, at 3:50 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > > > > > Hi Marek they look nice, thanks for sharing. The result with gold toner > > > look very much like what I get; somehow, you can't totally neutralize > the > > > warmth in the deepest shadows - a very dark and slight reddish / magenta > > > tint remains... > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From johnbrewerphotography at gmail.com Wed May 15 21:52:08 2013 From: johnbrewerphotography at gmail.com (John Brewer) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 22:52:08 +0100 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: SOURCE FOR KAOLIN IN US? In-Reply-To: <000901ce51a6$a1843460$0502a8c0@east> References: <000901ce51a6$a1843460$0502a8c0@east> Message-ID: Hi Bob As Don has said its used in beauty treatments. I've just looked on the uk amazon and 500g is ?6 for kaolin powder. If you still struggle finding some email me and I'll grab some and send it to you. (I might charge a sunshine tax, cold here in Blighty! ;) ) Cheers John Sent from my iPhone On 15 May 2013, at 20:58, "Don Sweet" wrote: > Hi Bob > > Try a beauty therapist supplier - it seems to be used for face packs. You > can improve your complexion while clearing your solutions. > > Don Sweet > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "BOB KISS" > To: > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 7:29 AM > Subject: [Alt-photo] SOURCE FOR KAOLIN IN US? > > > DEAR LIST, > > I am hoping to find some kaolin to keep my silver nitrate > solutions for salt and albumen clear but haven't been able to find any at > all in Barbados. I checked B&S and Photog's Formulary and they don't seem > to have any either.or did I miss something? > > Do any of you know of a source of the proper kaolin in the US to > clear organic material out of our silver nitrate solutions? > > CHEERS! > > BOB > > > > Please check my website: http://www.bobkiss.com/ > > > > > "Live as if you are going to die tomorrow. Learn as if you are going to > live forever". Mahatma Gandhi > > > > "Earth" without "art" is just "Eh"! (Anonymous graffiti posted on Facebook) > > > > "Madonne e fiori, trionfo eterno di giovent?!" from Mattinata Fiorentina by > Antonella Ruggiero > > > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature > database 8337 (20130515) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From creatrix3 at gmail.com Wed May 15 22:00:36 2013 From: creatrix3 at gmail.com (Suzanne Steel) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 15:00:36 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: SOURCE FOR KAOLIN IN US? In-Reply-To: References: <000901ce51a6$a1843460$0502a8c0@east> Message-ID: kaolin is pure clay. Any pottery supply should have it. Suzanne On May 15, 2013, at 2:52 PM, John Brewer wrote: Hi Bob As Don has said its used in beauty treatments. I've just looked on the uk amazon and 500g is ?6 for kaolin powder. If you still struggle finding some email me and I'll grab some and send it to you. (I might charge a sunshine tax, cold here in Blighty! ;) ) Cheers John Sent from my iPhone On 15 May 2013, at 20:58, "Don Sweet" wrote: > Hi Bob > > Try a beauty therapist supplier - it seems to be used for face packs. You > can improve your complexion while clearing your solutions. > > Don Sweet > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "BOB KISS" > To: > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 7:29 AM > Subject: [Alt-photo] SOURCE FOR KAOLIN IN US? > > > DEAR LIST, > > I am hoping to find some kaolin to keep my silver nitrate > solutions for salt and albumen clear but haven't been able to find any at > all in Barbados. I checked B&S and Photog's Formulary and they don't seem > to have any either.or did I miss something? > > Do any of you know of a source of the proper kaolin in the US to > clear organic material out of our silver nitrate solutions? > > CHEERS! > > BOB > > > > Please check my website: http://www.bobkiss.com/ > > > > > "Live as if you are going to die tomorrow. Learn as if you are going to > live forever". Mahatma Gandhi > > > > "Earth" without "art" is just "Eh"! (Anonymous graffiti posted on Facebook) > > > > "Madonne e fiori, trionfo eterno di giovent?!" from Mattinata Fiorentina by > Antonella Ruggiero > > > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature > database 8337 (20130515) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From pitcherd1 at msn.com Wed May 15 22:21:26 2013 From: pitcherd1 at msn.com (David Pitcher) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 15:21:26 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: SOURCE FOR KAOLIN IN US? In-Reply-To: References: , <000901ce51a6$a1843460$0502a8c0@east>, , Message-ID: Here is a source that I have purchased other types of pigments and supplied from. They do have Kaolin powder and have shops in other locations than the US. http://www.kremerpigments.com/shopus/index.php?cat=01050203&lang=ENG&product=58250 Cheers, David > From: creatrix3 at gmail.com > Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 15:00:36 -0700 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: SOURCE FOR KAOLIN IN US? > > kaolin is pure clay. Any pottery supply should have it. > > Suzanne > On May 15, 2013, at 2:52 PM, John Brewer wrote: > > Hi Bob > > As Don has said its used in beauty treatments. I've just looked on the uk amazon and 500g is ?6 for kaolin powder. If you still struggle finding some email me and I'll grab some and send it to you. (I might charge a sunshine tax, cold here in Blighty! ;) ) > > Cheers > > John > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 15 May 2013, at 20:58, "Don Sweet" wrote: > > > Hi Bob > > > > Try a beauty therapist supplier - it seems to be used for face packs. You > > can improve your complexion while clearing your solutions. > > > > Don Sweet > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "BOB KISS" > > To: > > Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 7:29 AM > > Subject: [Alt-photo] SOURCE FOR KAOLIN IN US? > > > > > > DEAR LIST, > > > > I am hoping to find some kaolin to keep my silver nitrate > > solutions for salt and albumen clear but haven't been able to find any at > > all in Barbados. I checked B&S and Photog's Formulary and they don't seem > > to have any either.or did I miss something? > > > > Do any of you know of a source of the proper kaolin in the US to > > clear organic material out of our silver nitrate solutions? > > > > CHEERS! > > > > BOB > > > > > > > > Please check my website: http://www.bobkiss.com/ > > > > > > > > > > "Live as if you are going to die tomorrow. Learn as if you are going to > > live forever". Mahatma Gandhi > > > > > > > > "Earth" without "art" is just "Eh"! (Anonymous graffiti posted on Facebook) > > > > > > > > "Madonne e fiori, trionfo eterno di giovent?!" from Mattinata Fiorentina by > > Antonella Ruggiero > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature > > database 8337 (20130515) __________ > > > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From sanking at clemson.edu Wed May 15 22:34:48 2013 From: sanking at clemson.edu (Sandy King) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 18:34:48 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning In-Reply-To: References: <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather> <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org> <0b4501ce4d8d$a2e29990$e8a7ccb0$@aandy.org> <381f5eb3974bdf86fdd5f76fff151120@darrylbaird.com> <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A7242297FD@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern> <82EE! 6199-9057-417F-8795-A2E330E20709@clemson.edu> Message-ID: <166EABEA-380A-453C-8B8E-1D2F0F35A269@clemson.edu> Hi Loris, I do not use glycerin with either vandyke or argyrotype. Why do you use it? Agree about the stability of the gold toner. I would not trust it either if over 3 months old. Sandy On May 15, 2013, at 9:49 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > Hi Sandy, I agree for Vandykes (same results here, since the beginning), > but I yet have to manage to get fully blue-black (from highlights to > shadows) gold toned prints with Argyrotype, the deepest shadows remain very > slightly warm against the mid tones and highlights... Perhaps it due the > addition of glycerin to the stock solution, do you add glycerin? > > The shelf life / stability of the toner is good but can't be considered > stable; I haven't used toner older than 3 months, I mix 1000-2000ml small > batches... I do it that way since I saw gold deposits on the sides of the > bottle that was sitting around 5-6 months. (Maybe it started to deposit > earlier - I can't be sure, it was waiting my attention in the closet...) > OTOH, my gold salt is different than what you all use; I don't have access > to straight gold chloride (can't buy it locally) therefore I use locally > avaiable potassium tetrachloroaurate. > > Regards, > Loris. > > > 2013/5/15 Sandy King >> >> Loris, >> >> If you tone a vandyke or argyrotype print to completion with a gold > thiourea >> toner the deepest shadows should have a distinctive bluish-black color. If >> the tone that remains is slightly reddish/magenta/purplish the toner has > not >> done its job. The toner may be weak, or you might need to use more of it. >> >> I have noticed that some of the my batches of gold thioura toner do not >> seem to work as effectively as in the past and have wondered what could >> be the cause. It would seem that the gold chloride, distilled water and > salt >> would remain stable, wonder if the chemical thiourea goes bad? >> >> Sandy >> >> >> On May 15, 2013, at 3:50 AM, Loris Medici wrote: >> >>> Hi Marek they look nice, thanks for sharing. The result with gold toner >>> look very much like what I get; somehow, you can't totally neutralize > the >>> warmth in the deepest shadows - a very dark and slight reddish / magenta >>> tint remains... > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From dickburk at ix.netcom.com Thu May 16 02:50:36 2013 From: dickburk at ix.netcom.com (Richard Knoppow) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 19:50:36 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] No messages for a while References: <516F6305.2030301@ieee.org> Message-ID: Again, am I still on the list, no messages since the 3rd. -- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles WB6KBL dickburk at ix.netcom.com From dickburk at ix.netcom.com Thu May 16 03:05:39 2013 From: dickburk at ix.netcom.com (Richard Knoppow) Date: Wed, 15 May 2013 20:05:39 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: DAS References: <516F6305.2030301@ieee.org> Message-ID: <7365B93E3084462F9825C95BAE83AD55@VALUED20606295> I can see my message in the web archive, I guess Earthlink is still blocking the list. -- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles WB6KBL dickburk at ix.netcom.com From mail at loris.medici.name Thu May 16 06:26:25 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 09:26:25 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Was Sulfamic Argyrotype and toning In-Reply-To: <166EABEA-380A-453C-8B8E-1D2F0F35A269@clemson.edu> References: <28A0C4DFFF594475AF110882BBC96D1F@FireBreather> <0a7f01ce4d80$b9dd8c20$2d98a460$@aandy.org> <0b4501ce4d8d$a2e29990$e8a7ccb0$@aandy.org> <381f5eb3974bdf86fdd5f76fff151120@darrylbaird.com> <19BFDE1ACA5CA545BA009EE8205ED4A7242297FD@MAIL-MB2.lumcnet.prod.intern> <166EABEA-380A-453C-8B8E-1D2F0F35A269@clemson.edu> Message-ID: Hi Sandy, Glycerin gives a hue shift from a yellowish brown to a redder brown. I add about 1ml into 100ml "stock" solution... BTW, I have to correct myself, because I finally managed to get an uniformly colored (no split) gold toned Argyrotype yesterday evening. (Still with diluted toner) But that was with a different (new) paper and (most importantly) different sensitizer dilution(*). (*) More about this later... Regards, Loris. 2013/5/16 Sandy King > > Hi Loris, > > I do not use glycerin with either vandyke or argyrotype. Why do you use it? > > Agree about the stability of the gold toner. I would not trust it either if over 3 months old. > > Sandy > > > On May 15, 2013, at 9:49 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > > > Hi Sandy, I agree for Vandykes (same results here, since the beginning), > > but I yet have to manage to get fully blue-black (from highlights to > > shadows) gold toned prints with Argyrotype, the deepest shadows remain very > > slightly warm against the mid tones and highlights... Perhaps it due the > > addition of glycerin to the stock solution, do you add glycerin? > > > > The shelf life / stability of the toner is good but can't be considered > > stable; I haven't used toner older than 3 months, I mix 1000-2000ml small > > batches... I do it that way since I saw gold deposits on the sides of the > > bottle that was sitting around 5-6 months. (Maybe it started to deposit > > earlier - I can't be sure, it was waiting my attention in the closet...) > > OTOH, my gold salt is different than what you all use; I don't have access > > to straight gold chloride (can't buy it locally) therefore I use locally > > avaiable potassium tetrachloroaurate. From mail at loris.medici.name Thu May 16 12:27:09 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 15:27:09 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) Message-ID: Hi all, For the last couple of days I was dealing with the calibration of Argyrotype process on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) paper (FAEW onwards...) acidified with sulfamic acid and wanted to share few notes for the records. I was having bleeding, grainness and all kinds of other problems with this paper / sensitizer combination, no matter how much Tween I was using. This paper has a remarkable amount of AKD sizing which makes application of the Argyrotype sensitizer pretty problematic. As you may already know, Argyrotype doesn't get easily absorbed into the paper's fibers easily, probably because it has a significant amount of ammonium iron(III) citrate (AFC onwards...) in the formula. Somehow, when the AFC content in the solution increases, the paper is less and less inclined to accept it readily. That's why it is advised to (additionally) use a surfactant such as Tween 20, in order to facilitate the take up of the emulsion into the paper's fibers. When you compare the AFC content of Argyrotype against some other sensitizers with it - which normally don't need any surfactant to work nice - you notice an interesting condition: AFC % AgNO3 % Argyrotype 22 10.3 Trad. cyanotype (1+1) 10 - 12.5 N/A Vandyke 9 3.8 Argyrotype contains approx. 1.8-2.4x more AFC than the comparison. (And 2.7x more silver!) Knowing Sam Wang's preference for using Argyrotype sensitizer diluted 1+1 with water (an information shared here by Christina Anderson before...), I decided to dilute my sensitizer 2+1 (1 part water per 2 parts standard strength stock sensitizer solution). Even diluted 2+1, the sensitizer would still have 1.8x more silver than Vandyke, and my previous experience with pop Pd was that there's only a marginal difference in dmax between iron sensitizer strengths of 45% and (recommended) 60% - tested with matching strength of Pd solutions. Therefore, I assumed it wouldn't hurt much in the dmax department. Indeed, now the diluted sensitizer works like a charm (Pd quality I would say...) with this paper, and the resulting dmax leaves nothing to ask more! This dilution trick also made me (finally) able to get absolutely neutral to blue black and uniform results with gold-thiourea toner. Therefore, if you have problems with Argyrotype, also try it by diluting 2+1 or 1+1, and see if that works and/or you like the results! Regards, Loris. P.S. I still add 1d 10% Tween 20 per ml of sensitizer, FAEW has a very hard surface therefore still needs some help. (OTOH, I actually didn't try it w/o Tween, but I'm not going to fix it since it ain't broken!) From keith.gerling at gmail.com Thu May 16 12:47:58 2013 From: keith.gerling at gmail.com (Keith Gerling) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 07:47:58 -0500 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Loris. This is very useful! On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 7:27 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > Hi all, > > For the last couple of days I was dealing with the calibration of > Argyrotype process on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm > (140lb) paper (FAEW onwards...) acidified with sulfamic acid and wanted to > share few notes for the records. > > I was having bleeding, grainness and all kinds of other problems with this > paper / sensitizer combination, no matter how much Tween I was using. > > This paper has a remarkable amount of AKD sizing which makes application of > the Argyrotype sensitizer pretty problematic. As you may already know, > Argyrotype doesn't get easily absorbed into the paper's fibers easily, > probably because it has a significant amount of ammonium iron(III) citrate > (AFC onwards...) in the formula. Somehow, when the AFC content in the > solution increases, the paper is less and less inclined to accept it > readily. That's why it is advised to (additionally) use a surfactant such > as Tween 20, in order to facilitate the take up of the emulsion into the > paper's fibers. > > When you compare the AFC content of Argyrotype against some other > sensitizers with it - which normally don't need any surfactant to work nice > - you notice an interesting condition: > > > AFC % AgNO3 % Argyrotype 22 10.3 Trad. cyanotype (1+1) 10 - 12.5 N/A > Vandyke 9 3.8 > Argyrotype contains approx. 1.8-2.4x more AFC than the comparison. (And > 2.7x more silver!) > > Knowing Sam Wang's preference for using Argyrotype sensitizer diluted 1+1 > with water (an information shared here by Christina Anderson before...), I > decided to dilute my sensitizer 2+1 (1 part water per 2 parts standard > strength stock sensitizer solution). Even diluted 2+1, the sensitizer would > still have 1.8x more silver than Vandyke, and my previous experience with > pop Pd was that there's only a marginal difference in dmax between iron > sensitizer strengths of 45% and (recommended) 60% - tested with matching > strength of Pd solutions. Therefore, I assumed it wouldn't hurt much in the > dmax department. > > Indeed, now the diluted sensitizer works like a charm (Pd quality I would > say...) with this paper, and the resulting dmax leaves nothing to ask more! > > This dilution trick also made me (finally) able to get absolutely neutral > to blue black and uniform results with gold-thiourea toner. > > Therefore, if you have problems with Argyrotype, also try it by diluting > 2+1 or 1+1, and see if that works and/or you like the results! > > Regards, > Loris. > > P.S. I still add 1d 10% Tween 20 per ml of sensitizer, FAEW has a very hard > surface therefore still needs some help. (OTOH, I actually didn't try it > w/o Tween, but I'm not going to fix it since it ain't broken!) > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > From aschmitt at aandy.org Thu May 16 12:48:43 2013 From: aschmitt at aandy.org (andy schmitt) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 08:48:43 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: DAS In-Reply-To: <7365B93E3084462F9825C95BAE83AD55@VALUED20606295> References: <516F6305.2030301@ieee.org> <7365B93E3084462F9825C95BAE83AD55@VALUED20606295> Message-ID: <22c101ce5233$c9815870$5c840950$@aandy.org> Set up a google account just for the list... (I know... it's the easy way out but... ) Have a great weekend Regards Andy Schmitt Head of The New & Improved Photography Dept, Peters Valley School of Craft http://www.petersvalley.org/html/Photography.cfm -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Richard Knoppow Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 11:06 PM To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: DAS I can see my message in the web archive, I guess Earthlink is still blocking the list. -- Richard Knoppow Los Angeles WB6KBL dickburk at ix.netcom.com _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Thu May 16 12:52:30 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 15:52:30 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I hope it will be "a summer of Argyrotype" for many of us! ;) 2013/5/16 Keith Gerling > > Thanks, Loris. This is very useful! > > > On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 7:27 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > For the last couple of days I was dealing with the calibration of > > Argyrotype process on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm > > (140lb) paper (FAEW onwards...) acidified with sulfamic acid and wanted to > > share few notes for the records. > > ... From alt.photosbyjeremy at gmail.com Thu May 16 12:56:36 2013 From: alt.photosbyjeremy at gmail.com (Jeremy Moore) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 07:56:36 -0500 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: DAS In-Reply-To: <22c101ce5233$c9815870$5c840950$@aandy.org> References: <516F6305.2030301@ieee.org> <7365B93E3084462F9825C95BAE83AD55@VALUED20606295> <22c101ce5233$c9815870$5c840950$@aandy.org> Message-ID: <21631E6B-4AAB-427A-8419-6C6FA375C8DA@gmail.com> Then forward that google account to your EarthLink. On May 16, 2013, at 7:48 AM, "andy schmitt" wrote: > Set up a google account just for the list... > (I know... it's the easy way out but... ) > Have a great weekend > > Regards > > Andy Schmitt > > Head of The New & Improved Photography Dept, > Peters Valley School of Craft > http://www.petersvalley.org/html/Photography.cfm > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of > Richard Knoppow > Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2013 11:06 PM > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: DAS > > I can see my message in the web archive, I guess Earthlink is still blocking > the list. > > > -- > Richard Knoppow > Los Angeles > WB6KBL > dickburk at ix.netcom.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From sbilici at gmail.com Thu May 16 13:23:13 2013 From: sbilici at gmail.com (Serdar Bilici) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 16:23:13 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <030601ce5238$856ccf70$90466e50$@gmail.com> Hi Loris, I will try this method with FAEW SP probably this weekend. I run out of sulfamic acid treated FAEW papers. Just, for the sake of testing I am already certain it will work. I have tested the dilution trick with another paper available and I must say the diluted sensitizer is working as good as undiluted argyrotype. I have made a third test with Canson Montval today, using 2+1 diluted argyrotype. Although, canson had no problems with argyrotype unlike FAEW, I did the tests to see if there would be a significant difference/considerable loss. Comparing the blacks with my untoned undiluted argyrotype on canson results with untoned 2+1 diluted argyrotype on canson, the blacks are now identical imo, my scanner gives a %1 difference in grayscale mode in favor of undiluted argyrotype. But having said that, I have yet to establish more accurate base expsoure with the diluted sensitizer, and also my initial results were printed in higher humidity. So, I am pretty sure 2+1 dilution would work identically when I sort these things out. The coatings got even easier with dilutied sensitizer, and that would be great help especially with hard surface of FAEW SP. I used to coat it in higher humidity to increase the absorption, and added crazy amounts of ilfotol. Now I think I can cut the amount of ilfotol. Suffice to say, the 2+1 dilution method is working great for me... Regards, Serdar -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Loris Medici Sent: 16 May?s 2013 Per?embe 15:27 To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [Alt-photo] Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) Hi all, For the last couple of days I was dealing with the calibration of Argyrotype process on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) paper (FAEW onwards...) acidified with sulfamic acid and wanted to share few notes for the records. I was having bleeding, grainness and all kinds of other problems with this paper / sensitizer combination, no matter how much Tween I was using. This paper has a remarkable amount of AKD sizing which makes application of the Argyrotype sensitizer pretty problematic. As you may already know, Argyrotype doesn't get easily absorbed into the paper's fibers easily, probably because it has a significant amount of ammonium iron(III) citrate (AFC onwards...) in the formula. Somehow, when the AFC content in the solution increases, the paper is less and less inclined to accept it readily. That's why it is advised to (additionally) use a surfactant such as Tween 20, in order to facilitate the take up of the emulsion into the paper's fibers. When you compare the AFC content of Argyrotype against some other sensitizers with it - which normally don't need any surfactant to work nice - you notice an interesting condition: AFC % AgNO3 % Argyrotype 22 10.3 Trad. cyanotype (1+1) 10 - 12.5 N/A Vandyke 9 3.8 Argyrotype contains approx. 1.8-2.4x more AFC than the comparison. (And 2.7x more silver!) Knowing Sam Wang's preference for using Argyrotype sensitizer diluted 1+1 with water (an information shared here by Christina Anderson before...), I decided to dilute my sensitizer 2+1 (1 part water per 2 parts standard strength stock sensitizer solution). Even diluted 2+1, the sensitizer would still have 1.8x more silver than Vandyke, and my previous experience with pop Pd was that there's only a marginal difference in dmax between iron sensitizer strengths of 45% and (recommended) 60% - tested with matching strength of Pd solutions. Therefore, I assumed it wouldn't hurt much in the dmax department. Indeed, now the diluted sensitizer works like a charm (Pd quality I would say...) with this paper, and the resulting dmax leaves nothing to ask more! This dilution trick also made me (finally) able to get absolutely neutral to blue black and uniform results with gold-thiourea toner. Therefore, if you have problems with Argyrotype, also try it by diluting 2+1 or 1+1, and see if that works and/or you like the results! Regards, Loris. P.S. I still add 1d 10% Tween 20 per ml of sensitizer, FAEW has a very hard surface therefore still needs some help. (OTOH, I actually didn't try it w/o Tween, but I'm not going to fix it since it ain't broken!) _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Thu May 16 13:40:34 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 16:40:34 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) In-Reply-To: <030601ce5238$856ccf70$90466e50$@gmail.com> References: <030601ce5238$856ccf70$90466e50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the confirmation Serdar & good luck! 2013/5/16 Serdar Bilici > > ... > Suffice to say, the 2+1 dilution method is working great for me... From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Thu May 16 14:29:13 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 14:29:13 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Loris, I printed some Argyrotypes on FA soft press treated with sulfamic acid and did not noticed any bleeding. I am using 4 drops of undiluted Tween 20 per 100ml sensitizer. However stretching your chemistry is always a good thing. I will try it in my next printing session. Marek > Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 15:27:09 +0300 > From: mail at loris.medici.name > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) > > Hi all, > > For the last couple of days I was dealing with the calibration of > Argyrotype process on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm > (140lb) paper (FAEW onwards...) acidified with sulfamic acid and wanted to > share few notes for the records. > > I was having bleeding, grainness and all kinds of other problems with this > paper / sensitizer combination, no matter how much Tween I was using. > > This paper has a remarkable amount of AKD sizing which makes application of > the Argyrotype sensitizer pretty problematic. As you may already know, > Argyrotype doesn't get easily absorbed into the paper's fibers easily, > probably because it has a significant amount of ammonium iron(III) citrate > (AFC onwards...) in the formula. Somehow, when the AFC content in the > solution increases, the paper is less and less inclined to accept it > readily. That's why it is advised to (additionally) use a surfactant such > as Tween 20, in order to facilitate the take up of the emulsion into the > paper's fibers. > > When you compare the AFC content of Argyrotype against some other > sensitizers with it - which normally don't need any surfactant to work nice > - you notice an interesting condition: > > > AFC % AgNO3 % Argyrotype 22 10.3 Trad. cyanotype (1+1) 10 - 12.5 N/A > Vandyke 9 3.8 > Argyrotype contains approx. 1.8-2.4x more AFC than the comparison. (And > 2.7x more silver!) > > Knowing Sam Wang's preference for using Argyrotype sensitizer diluted 1+1 > with water (an information shared here by Christina Anderson before...), I > decided to dilute my sensitizer 2+1 (1 part water per 2 parts standard > strength stock sensitizer solution). Even diluted 2+1, the sensitizer would > still have 1.8x more silver than Vandyke, and my previous experience with > pop Pd was that there's only a marginal difference in dmax between iron > sensitizer strengths of 45% and (recommended) 60% - tested with matching > strength of Pd solutions. Therefore, I assumed it wouldn't hurt much in the > dmax department. > > Indeed, now the diluted sensitizer works like a charm (Pd quality I would > say...) with this paper, and the resulting dmax leaves nothing to ask more! > > This dilution trick also made me (finally) able to get absolutely neutral > to blue black and uniform results with gold-thiourea toner. > > Therefore, if you have problems with Argyrotype, also try it by diluting > 2+1 or 1+1, and see if that works and/or you like the results! > > Regards, > Loris. > > P.S. I still add 1d 10% Tween 20 per ml of sensitizer, FAEW has a very hard > surface therefore still needs some help. (OTOH, I actually didn't try it > w/o Tween, but I'm not going to fix it since it ain't broken!) > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Thu May 16 20:55:53 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 23:55:53 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Marek, Somehow I couldn't manage to get a fine enough print w/o diluting the sensitizer. Please share your findings with us later, your insights always prove to be extremely helpful... BTW, do you have a repro of one of your prints on FAEW? Regards, Loris. 2013/5/16 Marek Matusz > > Loris, > > I printed some Argyrotypes on FA soft press treated with sulfamic acid > and did not noticed any bleeding. I am using 4 drops of undiluted Tween > 20 per 100ml sensitizer. However stretching your chemistry is always a > good thing. I will try it in my next printing session. From mail at loris.medici.name Fri May 17 10:21:52 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 13:21:52 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, See the scan of the 31-step tablet test print here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/loris-medici/8746095027/ I gave it a 16 minutes exposure, looking at the results I calculate my standart printing time as 8 minutes - using Agfa Selectjet transparency / UVBL tubes... Regards, Loris. 2013/5/16 Loris Medici > > Hi all, > > For the last couple of days I was dealing with the calibration of > Argyrotype process on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press > 300gsm (140lb) paper (FAEW onwards...) acidified with sulfamic > acid and wanted to share few notes for the records. >... From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Fri May 17 16:14:14 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 16:14:14 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Loris, I scanned examples of two additional argyrotypes on Fabriano Artistico soft press, treated with sulfamic acid.. https://plus.google.com/photos/105732508998271877151/albums/5878024532012592449?authkey=CMaWrqn036yO6AE My expose is 6 minutes under the bank of UV BL tubes, almost exactly the same as you do. It is good to notice the consistency of the process in your setup and mine. I do not see much of graininess in your scan, although I was not able to magnify it. WHat I think that I see is the grain of the paper. That might be related on how the sensitizer spreads/soaks into the paper. This does not seems like the grain of the argyrotype process. If I look carefully at the highlights of my prints I can definitely see the texture of the paper, but no grain to speak off, just very smooth tones. I also noticed how different is the final color of the untoned argyrotype on Fabriano and Stonegende papers. This must be related to the paper size. It does look like a very busy argyrotype summer. Marek > Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 13:21:52 +0300 > From: mail at loris.medici.name > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) > > Hi all, > > See the scan of the 31-step tablet test print here: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/loris-medici/8746095027/ > > I gave it a 16 minutes exposure, looking at the results I calculate my > standart printing time as 8 minutes - using Agfa Selectjet transparency / > UVBL tubes... > > Regards, > Loris. > > > 2013/5/16 Loris Medici > > > > Hi all, > > > > For the last couple of days I was dealing with the calibration of > > Argyrotype process on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press > > 300gsm (140lb) paper (FAEW onwards...) acidified with sulfamic > > acid and wanted to share few notes for the records. > >... > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Fri May 17 17:31:21 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 20:31:21 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Marek, thanks much for the scans. I wonder how will be your results with the formula diluted? Could be from the repro but, the dmax of the untoned print looks like lacking - is it so really or rather a reproduction issue? The tonality of the my step tablet is as smooth as it gets / perfect. My image is the scan of the good test print. Indeed, what you see is the texture of the paper, exaggerated by the oblique light of the scanner. Will provide a 100% crop later, I don't have the file in this computer... Regards, Loris. 2013/5/17 Marek Matusz > Loris, > > I scanned examples of two additional argyrotypes on Fabriano Artistico > soft press, treated with sulfamic acid.. > > > > https://plus.google.com/photos/105732508998271877151/albums/5878024532012592449?authkey=CMaWrqn036yO6AE > > My expose is 6 minutes under the bank of UV BL tubes, almost exactly the > same as you do. It is good to notice the consistency of the process in your > setup and mine. > I do not see much of graininess in your scan, although I was not able to > magnify it. WHat I think that I see > is the grain of the paper. That might be related on how the sensitizer > spreads/soaks into the paper. This does not seems like the grain of the > argyrotype process. > > If I look carefully at the highlights of my prints I can definitely see > the texture of the paper, but no grain to speak off, just very smooth tones. > > I also noticed how different is the final color of the untoned argyrotype > on Fabriano and Stonegende papers. This must be related to the paper size. > > It does look like a very busy argyrotype summer. > > Marek > > > Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 13:21:52 +0300 > > From: mail at loris.medici.name > > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White > Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) > > > > Hi all, > > > > See the scan of the 31-step tablet test print here: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/loris-medici/8746095027/ > > > > I gave it a 16 minutes exposure, looking at the results I calculate my > > standart printing time as 8 minutes - using Agfa Selectjet transparency / > > UVBL tubes... > > > > Regards, > > Loris. > > > > > > 2013/5/16 Loris Medici > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > For the last couple of days I was dealing with the calibration of > > > Argyrotype process on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press > > > 300gsm (140lb) paper (FAEW onwards...) acidified with sulfamic > > > acid and wanted to share few notes for the records. > > >... > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > From mail at loris.medici.name Fri May 17 18:04:49 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 21:04:49 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi again, See the 100% crop of the scan here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/loris-medici/8747240383/ Regards, Loris. 2013/5/17 Loris Medici > > ... > The tonality of the my step tablet is as smooth as it gets / perfect. > My image is the scan of the good test print. Indeed, what you see > is the texture of the paper, exaggerated by the oblique light of the > scanner. Will provide a 100% crop later, I don't have the file in this > computer... From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Fri May 17 21:39:16 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 21:39:16 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) In-Reply-To: References: , , , Message-ID: Loris, I noticed that when I put the files in the same folder for upload. SO I took both prints and examined them side by side. The print on Fabriano SF is indeed somewhat lighter, perhaps half the step. I think that the contrast is lower then the print of Rising Stonenge. On a separate note. Does anybody know what is the shelf life of coated argyrotype papers? The chemistry seems to be pretty stable. Marek > Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 20:31:21 +0300 > From: mail at loris.medici.name > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) > > Hi Marek, thanks much for the scans. I wonder how will be your results with > the formula diluted? Could be from the repro but, the dmax of the untoned > print looks like lacking - is it so really or rather a reproduction issue? > > The tonality of the my step tablet is as smooth as it gets / perfect. My > image is the scan of the good test print. Indeed, what you see is the > texture of the paper, exaggerated by the oblique light of the scanner. Will > provide a 100% crop later, I don't have the file in this computer... > > Regards, > Loris. > > > > 2013/5/17 Marek Matusz > > > Loris, > > > > I scanned examples of two additional argyrotypes on Fabriano Artistico > > soft press, treated with sulfamic acid.. > > > > > > > > https://plus.google.com/photos/105732508998271877151/albums/5878024532012592449?authkey=CMaWrqn036yO6AE > > > > My expose is 6 minutes under the bank of UV BL tubes, almost exactly the > > same as you do. It is good to notice the consistency of the process in your > > setup and mine. > > I do not see much of graininess in your scan, although I was not able to > > magnify it. WHat I think that I see > > is the grain of the paper. That might be related on how the sensitizer > > spreads/soaks into the paper. This does not seems like the grain of the > > argyrotype process. > > > > If I look carefully at the highlights of my prints I can definitely see > > the texture of the paper, but no grain to speak off, just very smooth tones. > > > > I also noticed how different is the final color of the untoned argyrotype > > on Fabriano and Stonegende papers. This must be related to the paper size. > > > > It does look like a very busy argyrotype summer. > > > > Marek > > > > > Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 13:21:52 +0300 > > > From: mail at loris.medici.name > > > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > > > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White > > Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > See the scan of the 31-step tablet test print here: > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/loris-medici/8746095027/ > > > > > > I gave it a 16 minutes exposure, looking at the results I calculate my > > > standart printing time as 8 minutes - using Agfa Selectjet transparency / > > > UVBL tubes... > > > > > > Regards, > > > Loris. > > > > > > > > > 2013/5/16 Loris Medici > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > For the last couple of days I was dealing with the calibration of > > > > Argyrotype process on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press > > > > 300gsm (140lb) paper (FAEW onwards...) acidified with sulfamic > > > > acid and wanted to share few notes for the records. > > > >... > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From fotocmb at gmail.com Sat May 18 06:12:13 2013 From: fotocmb at gmail.com (Charles Berger) Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 23:12:13 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] John Bentley Video Message-ID: Very cool video of photographer John Bladen Bentley of Toronto with his 8x10 Deardorff and his color carbon (UltraStable) prints: http://vimeo.com/65108090 From coldbay1 at gmail.com Sat May 18 10:30:18 2013 From: coldbay1 at gmail.com (Greg Schmitz) Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 02:30:18 -0800 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: John Bentley Video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5197583A.3010003@gmail.com> Thanks for this Charles. I thought the video was a bit skimpy on details. I did notice that John is printing much larger than 810 which was his originating format (at least based on the video). Is he using lith or digital to go large? When are you going to write a book about Ultrastable Charles? You really should! --greg On 5/17/13 10:12 PM, Charles Berger wrote: > Very cool video of photographer John Bladen Bentley of Toronto with his > 8x10 Deardorff and his color carbon (UltraStable) prints: > http://vimeo.com/65108090 > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Sat May 18 10:31:01 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 13:31:01 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Marek, FAEW/SP is pretty hard surfaced, I'm still trying to find the best combination of diluted sensitizer volume per given area and Tween strength per given sensitizer volume. I'm still not there but I'm pretty close; my benchmark is pop Pd on the same paper. (A pretty high criterion!) The results are way better than single coated Vandyke but not as good as I would like them to be... I'm going to increase both the coating volume and drying time; I see occasional unevenness / bronzing in the prints. That could be due both (a.) insufficent coating volume and (b.) unsufficent drying time. (I'm going to try 0.25ml diluted sensitizer per 10 sq. in. and a drying time of min. 60 minutes later today - I was working with 0.20ml/ 10sq.in. and 40 minutes before...) Regards, Loris. 2013/5/18 Marek Matusz > Loris, > > I noticed that when I put the files in the same folder for upload. SO I > took both prints and examined them side by side. The print on Fabriano SF > is indeed somewhat lighter, perhaps half the step. I think that the > contrast is lower then the print of Rising Stonenge. > > On a separate note. Does anybody know what is the shelf life of coated > argyrotype papers? The chemistry seems to be pretty stable. > > Marek From donsbryant at gmail.com Sat May 18 14:04:30 2013 From: donsbryant at gmail.com (Don) Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 10:04:30 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: John Bentley Video In-Reply-To: <5197583A.3010003@gmail.com> References: <5197583A.3010003@gmail.com> Message-ID: <71994950306546D1B676529960E9D2CA@FireBreather> > When are you going to write a book about Ultrastable Charles? You really should! > I second that! Bentley's eye is sublime, IMO. Don Bryant From mjkoskin at gmail.com Sun May 19 01:22:00 2013 From: mjkoskin at gmail.com (Matti Koskinen) Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 04:22:00 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] B&W toning of cyanotypes Message-ID: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com> hi, I wrote (and practised WebSite Painter) of my finding of toning cyanos to semi-B&W. the link www.mattikoskinenphoto.com/cyano hope someone tries it and tells what kind of results she/he gets. -matti From ravene at gmail.com Sun May 19 05:04:44 2013 From: ravene at gmail.com (raven erebus) Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 22:04:44 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: B&W toning of cyanotypes In-Reply-To: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com> References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com> Message-ID: Interesting.... I've tried very similar methods and didn't get those results. By washing soda do you mean calcium carbonate? what brand of instant coffee? (it does seem to make a difference) And what kind of paper did you use? (my experiments seem to vary greatly depending on paper) Here's my example and instructions for a lovely sepia tone. http://www.flickr.com/photos/violentbloom/8671043077 On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 6:22 PM, Matti Koskinen wrote: > hi, > > I wrote (and practised WebSite Painter) of my finding of toning cyanos to > semi-B&W. > > the link www.mattikoskinenphoto.com/**cyano > > hope someone tries it and tells what kind of results she/he gets. > > -matti > > > ______________________________**_________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/**mailman/listinfo > -- ?Be regular and orderly in your life, so that you may be violent and original in your work.? Gustave Flaubert From mjkoskin at gmail.com Sun May 19 08:16:27 2013 From: mjkoskin at gmail.com (Matti Koskinen) Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 11:16:27 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: B&W toning of cyanotypes In-Reply-To: References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> On 19.5.2013 8:04, raven erebus wrote: > Interesting.... I've tried very similar methods and didn't get those > results. > By washing soda do you mean calcium carbonate? > what brand of instant coffee? (it does seem to make a difference) > And what kind of paper did you use? (my experiments seem to vary greatly > depending on paper) > > Here's my example and instructions for a lovely sepia tone. > http://www.flickr.com/photos/violentbloom/8671043077 > > Washing soda is Sodium Carbonate, not Calcium nor Bicarbonate used in baking. The coffee I used is the same re-branded Deuctsche Kaffee-extrakt origin, as given in Caffenol Cookbook. The paper is Daler-Rowney Aquarelle 300g/m2 Acid free cold pressed A3-pad, which I cut in two. I'm thinking that the acetic acid development has something really to do why the prints get this almost b&w tone. When I've tried toning only water development, I get brown tone and staining, as I have to tone much longer. I've tried green tea also, but never get the truly amazing tone of your print. thanks for sharing. -matti From mail at loris.medici.name Sun May 19 10:38:16 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 13:38:16 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: B&W toning of cyanotypes In-Reply-To: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com> References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3528243032608813283@unknownmsgid> Matti that's interesting, probably due gallic acid in the coffee. You may also try boiled sumac, it does contain significant amnt. of these compounds... Regards, Loris. On 19 May 2013, at 04:22, Matti Koskinen wrote: > hi, > > I wrote (and practised WebSite Painter) of my finding of toning cyanos to semi-B&W. > > the link www.mattikoskinenphoto.com/cyano > > hope someone tries it and tells what kind of results she/he gets. > > -matti > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From sbilici at gmail.com Sun May 19 11:04:00 2013 From: sbilici at gmail.com (Serdar Bilici) Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 14:04:00 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: B&W toning of cyanotypes In-Reply-To: <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com> <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com> Hi Matti, I used vinegar (straigt and diluted) for trad. cyanotypes. It has no effect on the color imo. But citric acid definitely shifts the colors towards greener hues in both the traditional and the new cyanotype formula. Whether added into the sensitizer or used as the first acid wash. Regards Serdar -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Matti Koskinen Sent: 19 May?s 2013 Pazar 11:16 To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: B&W toning of cyanotypes On 19.5.2013 8:04, raven erebus wrote: > Interesting.... I've tried very similar methods and didn't get those > results. > By washing soda do you mean calcium carbonate? > what brand of instant coffee? (it does seem to make a difference) And > what kind of paper did you use? (my experiments seem to vary greatly > depending on paper) > > Here's my example and instructions for a lovely sepia tone. > http://www.flickr.com/photos/violentbloom/8671043077 > > Washing soda is Sodium Carbonate, not Calcium nor Bicarbonate used in baking. The coffee I used is the same re-branded Deuctsche Kaffee-extrakt origin, as given in Caffenol Cookbook. The paper is Daler-Rowney Aquarelle 300g/m2 Acid free cold pressed A3-pad, which I cut in two. I'm thinking that the acetic acid development has something really to do why the prints get this almost b&w tone. When I've tried toning only water development, I get brown tone and staining, as I have to tone much longer. I've tried green tea also, but never get the truly amazing tone of your print. thanks for sharing. -matti _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From keith.gerling at gmail.com Sun May 19 16:21:42 2013 From: keith.gerling at gmail.com (Keith Gerling) Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 11:21:42 -0500 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: B&W toning of cyanotypes In-Reply-To: <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com> References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com> <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sumac? I still have a bag of that from Istanbul that is pretty stale. I can use that for toning? On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 6:04 AM, Serdar Bilici wrote: > Hi Matti, > > I used vinegar (straigt and diluted) for trad. cyanotypes. It has no effect > on the color imo. But citric acid definitely shifts the colors towards > greener hues in both the traditional and the new cyanotype formula. Whether > added into the sensitizer or used as the first acid wash. > > Regards > Serdar > > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf > Of > Matti Koskinen > Sent: 19 May?s 2013 Pazar 11:16 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: B&W toning of cyanotypes > > On 19.5.2013 8:04, raven erebus wrote: > > Interesting.... I've tried very similar methods and didn't get those > > results. > > By washing soda do you mean calcium carbonate? > > what brand of instant coffee? (it does seem to make a difference) And > > what kind of paper did you use? (my experiments seem to vary greatly > > depending on paper) > > > > Here's my example and instructions for a lovely sepia tone. > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/violentbloom/8671043077 > > > > > Washing soda is Sodium Carbonate, not Calcium nor Bicarbonate used in > baking. The coffee I used is the same re-branded Deuctsche Kaffee-extrakt > origin, as given in Caffenol Cookbook. The paper is Daler-Rowney Aquarelle > 300g/m2 Acid free cold pressed A3-pad, which I cut in two. > > I'm thinking that the acetic acid development has something really to do > why > the prints get this almost b&w tone. When I've tried toning only water > development, I get brown tone and staining, as I have to tone much longer. > > I've tried green tea also, but never get the truly amazing tone of your > print. > > thanks for sharing. > > -matti > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > From mail at loris.medici.name Sun May 19 18:35:26 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 21:35:26 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: B&W toning of cyanotypes In-Reply-To: References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com> <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Keith, I've read that sumac contains quite a lot gallic acid, but I'm not sure if it's in the fruit or somewhere else. Try to boil some and use the unfusion as a toner, it may work... It's on my list of things to try but it's a long time I didn't any cyanotypes. Regards, Loris. 2013/5/19 Keith Gerling > Sumac? I still have a bag of that from Istanbul that is pretty stale. I > can use that for toning? > > > On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 6:04 AM, Serdar Bilici wrote: > > > Hi Matti, > > > > I used vinegar (straigt and diluted) for trad. cyanotypes. It has no > effect > > on the color imo. But citric acid definitely shifts the colors towards > > greener hues in both the traditional and the new cyanotype formula. > Whether > > added into the sensitizer or used as the first acid wash. > > > > Regards > > Serdar > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf > > Of > > Matti Koskinen > > Sent: 19 May?s 2013 Pazar 11:16 > > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: B&W toning of cyanotypes > > > > On 19.5.2013 8:04, raven erebus wrote: > > > Interesting.... I've tried very similar methods and didn't get those > > > results. > > > By washing soda do you mean calcium carbonate? > > > what brand of instant coffee? (it does seem to make a difference) And > > > what kind of paper did you use? (my experiments seem to vary greatly > > > depending on paper) > > > > > > Here's my example and instructions for a lovely sepia tone. > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/violentbloom/8671043077 > > > > > > > > Washing soda is Sodium Carbonate, not Calcium nor Bicarbonate used in > > baking. The coffee I used is the same re-branded Deuctsche > Kaffee-extrakt > > origin, as given in Caffenol Cookbook. The paper is Daler-Rowney > Aquarelle > > 300g/m2 Acid free cold pressed A3-pad, which I cut in two. > > > > I'm thinking that the acetic acid development has something really to do > > why > > the prints get this almost b&w tone. When I've tried toning only water > > development, I get brown tone and staining, as I have to tone much > longer. > > > > I've tried green tea also, but never get the truly amazing tone of your > > print. > > > > thanks for sharing. > > > > -matti > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From dlhbloomfield at gmail.com Sun May 19 22:40:42 2013 From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 18:40:42 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon In-Reply-To: References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com> <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com> Hi all, I wanted to finally report on the exhibit, "Two Friends Who Never Met," that is now showing at Lightbox Photographic, in Astoria. We flew out last Thursday and stayed through Tuesday-- and had an incredible time. I'd never been to the Oregon coast before, and it is so so beautiful. I'm pretty sure I could live there. Astoria is a wonderful small town about an hour and a half from Portland. It's beautiful-- all the houses (mostly Victorian) are scattered on little hills looking down on the Columbia River. Sea lions are down there-- barking all night long. Fortunately, we were in a Victorian that was high enough up the hills that we could hear them only faintly. Michael and Chelsea, Lightbox owners, are terrific. We had such a great time with them. We had spent Thursday night in Portland and drove the slow scenic route to Astoria on Friday. Katharine's grown son and daughter, Doug and Heather, came in on Friday as well. We had dinner with them and with Michael. They're a lot of fun, and I think they really enjoyed talking about Katharine, the "List," and the exhibit itself. I had never seen much of Katharine's work, except what she had on her website-- which they have kept online, by the way (katharinethayer.com). So much of her imagery was very pale and subtle-- a Payne's Gray kind of minimalist look. And after seeing the Oregon coast and that area, I can see why she might have chosen that sort of subtlety as it really fit that environment and the way the surroundings really appear. Katharine had about 7 siblings, I think, and 2 of her brothers and 3 sisters came. I think they were all just incredibly touched by the show itself, by all the work, and by the people who had a connection to her-- so many of whom are showing work. I really really enjoyed talking to her family. They're really interesting people and a close family. They were very funny. I always thought Katharine had a great sense of humor, though I sometimes think humor does not always translate so well online. But they all seemed to know a lot of about the work she did, and they loved hearing stories about the "List." And, well, there are some pretty funny ones. ;) Friday night was some sort of a First Friday art event in Astoria, so even though the actual exhibit opening was Saturday night, tons of people came through on Friday night. I think it's the biggest crowd of people I've ever seen at a photography show (and an all gum show, for sure). In fact, I've never seen an all gum show. And then Saturday was the actual opening. Earlier that day, though, Michael had a smaller gathering of people-- including all of Katharine's family-- and others. Heather, Katharine's daughter, showed a slide show of Katharine and her siblings growing up on a farm, in Oregon-- lots of great old images-- and then on up to the last one, taken probably in the last year of her life. I never knew what she looked like, so that was neat to see. And I gave a short talk about our friendship and also what that friendship, her expertise-- and her generosity in freely giving that out-- meant to me, and to a lot of people. i also tried to be amusing in the little stories I told-- but-- again-- I think her family just really appreciated the entire tribute-- really touched by it. Michael wanted me to give a gum demonstration for a small group of their Lightbox members, and he'd asked that I bring some dichromate with me. ??? Considering my hair clip gets me pulled aside in airport security, I wasn't sure how accepted dichromate would be-- so Charles Ryberg, who is on this List and who also has some wonderful prints in the show, was nice enough to bring some dichromate-- already mixed-- along with gum-- so that was really very helpful and greatly appreciated (possibly kept me out of jail!)> So mainly, I wanted to say that to be able to see so much work by people on this List was just incredible. Sometimes, when you see work online, the work is either never as good in person-- or it's a disappointment in some way. I have to say that all the juried work I saw ahead of time was pretty wonderful-- but the real deals were absolutely breathtaking. I never saw such great work. And I don't think I've ever seen an entire photography show, and certainly not this big, that was all related to gum printing. People were coming in and out all night Friday and on Saturday, and people commented to me a lot about all the work-- and people were actually looking at the work (which sometimes doesn't happen at openings-- or maybe that's only at my openings//). I was pleased, too, that a few people came that I've met only online-- so it was great to meet them in person, too. Thanks again so much to those of you who submitted work for this. I loved seeing it all, and it meant so much to Katharine's family. The only downside was that we couldn't take ALL of this great work. But every inch of eye-level wall space was definitely used. Michael and Chelsea did a beautiful job of framing and hanging this work. What I found interesting, too, is the amazing mix of images. No image looked like any other. So I have been slowly uploading what are mostly iPhone pictures (so - sorry for the quality). I don't have much up there yet, but I'll keep adding. I put those in a "private gallery" on my website. So if you go into the website (www.dhbloomfield.com) and click "login" at top right, the password for that is "lightbox." I think Michael will be sending me some, too, so I'll add those when I get them. And Michael sent me these links which are close-ups of all the work that's in the show, so you can go through these, too. They are amazing. I'm not going to name names of all those prints I kept staring at, because that would be everybody's-- but I will say that I lobbied really really hard for those white tulips of Chia's. I don't even know how you do something like that. I brought up Mother's Day; future birthdays; future anniversaries . . . So . . . I'm sorry for this way too-long post, but I wanted to update everyone, especially those who got involved. Enjoy looking at all this great work. http://lightbox-photographic.com/shows/two_friends_who_never_met http://lightbox-photographic.com/exhibitions/twofriends/ http://lightbox-photographic.com/exhibitions/twofriendsjuried/ -Diana From jack at jackbrubaker.com Mon May 20 00:29:51 2013 From: jack at jackbrubaker.com (Jack Brubaker) Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 20:29:51 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon In-Reply-To: <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com> References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com> <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com> <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks Diana. It is so nice to see all the fine gum work that was inspired those who knew Katharine on the list. Jack On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 6:40 PM, Diana Bloomfield wrote: > Hi all, > > I wanted to finally report on the exhibit, "Two Friends Who Never Met," > that is now showing at Lightbox Photographic, in Astoria. We flew out last > Thursday and stayed through Tuesday-- and had an incredible time. I'd > never been to the Oregon coast before, and it is so so beautiful. I'm > pretty sure I could live there. Astoria is a wonderful small town about an > hour and a half from Portland. It's beautiful-- all the houses (mostly > Victorian) are scattered on little hills looking down on the Columbia > River. Sea lions are down there-- barking all night long. Fortunately, we > were in a Victorian that was high enough up the hills that we could hear > them only faintly. Michael and Chelsea, Lightbox owners, are terrific. We > had such a great time with them. > > We had spent Thursday night in Portland and drove the slow scenic route to > Astoria on Friday. Katharine's grown son and daughter, Doug and Heather, > came in on Friday as well. We had dinner with them and with Michael. > They're a lot of fun, and I think they really enjoyed talking about > Katharine, the "List," and the exhibit itself. I had never seen much of > Katharine's work, except what she had on her website-- which they have kept > online, by the way (katharinethayer.com). So much of her imagery was > very pale and subtle-- a Payne's Gray kind of minimalist look. And after > seeing the Oregon coast and that area, I can see why she might have chosen > that sort of subtlety as it really fit that environment and the way the > surroundings really appear. > > Katharine had about 7 siblings, I think, and 2 of her brothers and 3 > sisters came. I think they were all just incredibly touched by the show > itself, by all the work, and by the people who had a connection to her-- so > many of whom are showing work. I really really enjoyed talking to her > family. They're really interesting people and a close family. They were > very funny. I always thought Katharine had a great sense of humor, though > I sometimes think humor does not always translate so well online. But they > all seemed to know a lot of about the work she did, and they loved hearing > stories about the "List." And, well, there are some pretty funny ones. ;) > > Friday night was some sort of a First Friday art event in Astoria, so even > though the actual exhibit opening was Saturday night, tons of people came > through on Friday night. I think it's the biggest crowd of people I've > ever seen at a photography show (and an all gum show, for sure). In fact, > I've never seen an all gum show. And then Saturday was the actual opening. > Earlier that day, though, Michael had a smaller gathering of people-- > including all of Katharine's family-- and others. Heather, Katharine's > daughter, showed a slide show of Katharine and her siblings growing up on a > farm, in Oregon-- lots of great old images-- and then on up to the last > one, taken probably in the last year of her life. I never knew what she > looked like, so that was neat to see. And I gave a short talk about our > friendship and also what that friendship, her expertise-- and her > generosity in freely giving that out-- meant to me, and to a lot of people. > i also tried to be amusing in the li > ttle stories I told-- but-- again-- I think her family just really > appreciated the entire tribute-- really touched by it. > > Michael wanted me to give a gum demonstration for a small group of their > Lightbox members, and he'd asked that I bring some dichromate with me. ??? > Considering my hair clip gets me pulled aside in airport security, I > wasn't sure how accepted dichromate would be-- so Charles Ryberg, who is on > this List and who also has some wonderful prints in the show, was nice > enough to bring some dichromate-- already mixed-- along with gum-- so that > was really very helpful and greatly appreciated (possibly kept me out of > jail!)> > > So mainly, I wanted to say that to be able to see so much work by people > on this List was just incredible. Sometimes, when you see work online, the > work is either never as good in person-- or it's a disappointment in some > way. I have to say that all the juried work I saw ahead of time was pretty > wonderful-- but the real deals were absolutely breathtaking. I never saw > such great work. And I don't think I've ever seen an entire photography > show, and certainly not this big, that was all related to gum printing. > People were coming in and out all night Friday and on Saturday, and people > commented to me a lot about all the work-- and people were actually looking > at the work (which sometimes doesn't happen at openings-- or maybe that's > only at my openings//). > > I was pleased, too, that a few people came that I've met only online-- so > it was great to meet them in person, too. > > Thanks again so much to those of you who submitted work for this. I loved > seeing it all, and it meant so much to Katharine's family. The only > downside was that we couldn't take ALL of this great work. But every inch > of eye-level wall space was definitely used. Michael and Chelsea did a > beautiful job of framing and hanging this work. What I found interesting, > too, is the amazing mix of images. No image looked like any other. > > So I have been slowly uploading what are mostly iPhone pictures (so - > sorry for the quality). I don't have much up there yet, but I'll keep > adding. I put those in a "private gallery" on my website. So if you go > into the website (www.dhbloomfield.com) and click "login" at top right, > the password for that is "lightbox." I think Michael will be sending me > some, too, so I'll add those when I get them. > > And Michael sent me these links which are close-ups of all the work that's > in the show, so you can go through these, too. They are amazing. I'm not > going to name names of all those prints I kept staring at, because that > would be everybody's-- but I will say that I lobbied really really hard for > those white tulips of Chia's. I don't even know how you do something like > that. I brought up Mother's Day; future birthdays; future anniversaries . > . . > > So . . . I'm sorry for this way too-long post, but I wanted to update > everyone, especially those who got involved. Enjoy looking at all this > great work. > > http://lightbox-photographic.com/shows/two_friends_who_never_met > http://lightbox-photographic.com/exhibitions/twofriends/ > http://lightbox-photographic.com/exhibitions/twofriendsjuried/ > > > -Diana > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Mon May 20 02:13:14 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 02:13:14 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon In-Reply-To: <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com> References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com>, , <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com>, , , <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Diana Thanks for a wonderful summary of the show and the story telling. I wish I could be there to touch all those prints. I have been watching the pictures in the slide show several times over now and can not get enough. I really have to congratulate you for picking the images that are so engaging. I knew of Katharine work from the web and had a pretty good idea of what it looks like (though never seen it in person), so for the judging I send something that is totally opposite. Gum prints that came from the time period that I was making prints that look like Cibachromes, absolutely saturated with color. They do make such a great contrast with her work. I really congratulate all the artists that have prints in the show. WHat a great body of work. It gave me so many ideas. Perhaps after I am done with my argyrotype project. Marek > From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com > Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 18:40:42 -0400 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon > > > Hi all, > > I wanted to finally report on the exhibit, "Two Friends Who Never Met," that is now showing at Lightbox Photographic, in Astoria. We flew out last Thursday and stayed through Tuesday-- and had an incredible time. I'd never been to the Oregon coast before, and it is so so beautiful. I'm pretty sure I could live there. Astoria is a wonderful small town about an hour and a half from Portland. It's beautiful-- all the houses (mostly Victorian) are scattered on little hills looking down on the Columbia River. Sea lions are down there-- barking all night long. Fortunately, we were in a Victorian that was high enough up the hills that we could hear them only faintly. Michael and Chelsea, Lightbox owners, are terrific. We had such a great time with them. > > We had spent Thursday night in Portland and drove the slow scenic route to Astoria on Friday. Katharine's grown son and daughter, Doug and Heather, came in on Friday as well. We had dinner with them and with Michael. They're a lot of fun, and I think they really enjoyed talking about Katharine, the "List," and the exhibit itself. I had never seen much of Katharine's work, except what she had on her website-- which they have kept online, by the way (katharinethayer.com). So much of her imagery was very pale and subtle-- a Payne's Gray kind of minimalist look. And after seeing the Oregon coast and that area, I can see why she might have chosen that sort of subtlety as it really fit that environment and the way the surroundings really appear. > > Katharine had about 7 siblings, I think, and 2 of her brothers and 3 sisters came. I think they were all just incredibly touched by the show itself, by all the work, and by the people who had a connection to her-- so many of whom are showing work. I really really enjoyed talking to her family. They're really interesting people and a close family. They were very funny. I always thought Katharine had a great sense of humor, though I sometimes think humor does not always translate so well online. But they all seemed to know a lot of about the work she did, and they loved hearing stories about the "List." And, well, there are some pretty funny ones. ;) > > Friday night was some sort of a First Friday art event in Astoria, so even though the actual exhibit opening was Saturday night, tons of people came through on Friday night. I think it's the biggest crowd of people I've ever seen at a photography show (and an all gum show, for sure). In fact, I've never seen an all gum show. And then Saturday was the actual opening. Earlier that day, though, Michael had a smaller gathering of people-- including all of Katharine's family-- and others. Heather, Katharine's daughter, showed a slide show of Katharine and her siblings growing up on a farm, in Oregon-- lots of great old images-- and then on up to the last one, taken probably in the last year of her life. I never knew what she looked like, so that was neat to see. And I gave a short talk about our friendship and also what that friendship, her expertise-- and her generosity in freely giving that out-- meant to me, and to a lot of people. i also tried to be amusing in the li > ttle stories I told-- but-- again-- I think her family just really appreciated the entire tribute-- really touched by it. > > Michael wanted me to give a gum demonstration for a small group of their Lightbox members, and he'd asked that I bring some dichromate with me. ??? Considering my hair clip gets me pulled aside in airport security, I wasn't sure how accepted dichromate would be-- so Charles Ryberg, who is on this List and who also has some wonderful prints in the show, was nice enough to bring some dichromate-- already mixed-- along with gum-- so that was really very helpful and greatly appreciated (possibly kept me out of jail!)> > > So mainly, I wanted to say that to be able to see so much work by people on this List was just incredible. Sometimes, when you see work online, the work is either never as good in person-- or it's a disappointment in some way. I have to say that all the juried work I saw ahead of time was pretty wonderful-- but the real deals were absolutely breathtaking. I never saw such great work. And I don't think I've ever seen an entire photography show, and certainly not this big, that was all related to gum printing. People were coming in and out all night Friday and on Saturday, and people commented to me a lot about all the work-- and people were actually looking at the work (which sometimes doesn't happen at openings-- or maybe that's only at my openings//). > > I was pleased, too, that a few people came that I've met only online-- so it was great to meet them in person, too. > > Thanks again so much to those of you who submitted work for this. I loved seeing it all, and it meant so much to Katharine's family. The only downside was that we couldn't take ALL of this great work. But every inch of eye-level wall space was definitely used. Michael and Chelsea did a beautiful job of framing and hanging this work. What I found interesting, too, is the amazing mix of images. No image looked like any other. > > So I have been slowly uploading what are mostly iPhone pictures (so - sorry for the quality). I don't have much up there yet, but I'll keep adding. I put those in a "private gallery" on my website. So if you go into the website (www.dhbloomfield.com) and click "login" at top right, the password for that is "lightbox." I think Michael will be sending me some, too, so I'll add those when I get them. > > And Michael sent me these links which are close-ups of all the work that's in the show, so you can go through these, too. They are amazing. I'm not going to name names of all those prints I kept staring at, because that would be everybody's-- but I will say that I lobbied really really hard for those white tulips of Chia's. I don't even know how you do something like that. I brought up Mother's Day; future birthdays; future anniversaries . . . > > So . . . I'm sorry for this way too-long post, but I wanted to update everyone, especially those who got involved. Enjoy looking at all this great work. > > http://lightbox-photographic.com/shows/two_friends_who_never_met > http://lightbox-photographic.com/exhibitions/twofriends/ > http://lightbox-photographic.com/exhibitions/twofriendsjuried/ > > > -Diana > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From dlhbloomfield at gmail.com Mon May 20 03:13:05 2013 From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Sun, 19 May 2013 23:13:05 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon In-Reply-To: References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com>, , <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com>, , , <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47EDCD1C-EB1C-4F53-8485-0354D39D26B1@gmail.com> Hey Marek, The work really is great, including your own. I loved your images-- so incredibly rich. I wondered about your edges, too. Do they just turn out like that, or do you create some extra brushing to achieve that look? The entire presentation was perfect. Diana On May 19, 2013, at 10:13 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > Diana > > Thanks for a wonderful summary of the show and the story telling. I wish I could be there to touch all those prints. I have been watching the pictures in the slide show several times over now and can not get enough. > > I really have to congratulate you for picking the images that are so engaging. > > I knew of Katharine work from the web and had a pretty good idea of what it looks like (though never seen it in person), so for the judging I send something that is totally opposite. Gum prints that came from the time period that I was making prints that look like Cibachromes, absolutely saturated with color. They do make such a great contrast with her work. > > I really congratulate all the artists that have prints in the show. WHat a great body of work. > It gave me so many ideas. > > Perhaps after I am done with my argyrotype project. > > Marek > From gerryyaum at gmail.com Mon May 20 10:54:10 2013 From: gerryyaum at gmail.com (Gerry Yaum) Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 04:54:10 -0600 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: South East Asia Chemical Suppliers? In-Reply-To: References: <518C8C5A.50305@sharperstill.com> Message-ID: met phillip a few years back he was designing his new darkroom at the time, walked me through it. I think he told me he was able to get all his darkroom supplies delivered right to his door in Bangkok, you might want to try to contact him if you have not already. I also wanted to do some wet plate work in Bangkok in the future but was unable to track down the chemistry (except a very expensive bostick and sullivan shipment method). Any more luck? Gerry www.gerryyaum.blogspot.com On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 11:25 PM, gmail wrote: > Hi Eric - - > > When I took Mark Nelson's workshop, a wonderful photographer from Bangkok > was there, Virakich Sudhasawin and we have kept in touch. I know he is > doing platinum printing and also has an art supply business. If you contact > me off list, I would be happy to connect the two of you. > > Kate Jordahl > kate at jordahlphoto.com > www.katejordahl.com > > On May 10, 2013, at 9:51 PM, eric nelson wrote: > > > Thank you Jon, I'll drop them a note and see if they have any leads here. > > Eric > > > > > > On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Jon Reid wrote: > > > >> Eric, > >> The noted documentary photographer Philip Blenkinsop resides in Bangkok > >> and as far as I know continues analog photography. I don't think he was > >> ever into alt processes but was a huge fan of Type 55. He has a studio > >> called 2snakestudio, there is a contact on this page > >> http://www.philipblenkinsop.**com > >> He's been in that area for nearly 20 years so may be able to help you. > >> Photojournalist Jack Picone has also been there for years. I imagine > he's > >> mostly digital these days but would have been film for a while. Contact > >> details on his page http://www.jackpicone.com > >> > >> Jon > >> > >> eric nelson > >>> 10 May 2013 3:43 PM > >>> > >>> I've been looking (Googling) for a photo chemical supplier here in > >>> Thailand > >>> or somewhere "nearby" with no luck at all. > >>> I'm looking to get into wet plates (as well as back into the processes > I > >>> did back in the states) but shipping those chems from my past > suppliers in > >>> the US is going to be very expensive plus one never knows what will get > >>> stopped by customs here. I just read of someone's vitamin shipment > being > >>> stopped by customs here. > >>> >>> package-is-stuck-at-**customsfda/< > http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/636989-help-my-package-is-stuck-at-customsfda/ > > > >>>> > >>> > >>> Fortunately I was able to ship with our worldly goods, the bulk of my > >>> apothecary, but that will last only so long and I could not ship > anything > >>> flammable or dangerous like drum scanning fluids and acids. > >>> > >>> I don't know if anyone on the list resides in this neck of the woods, > but > >>> any help or advice would be appreciated. > >>> > >>> e > >>> ______________________________**_________________ > >>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/**mailman/listinfo< > http://lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo> > >>> > >> ______________________________**_________________ > >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/**mailman/listinfo< > http://lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > From mustafaumutsarac at gmail.com Mon May 20 11:16:32 2013 From: mustafaumutsarac at gmail.com (Mustafa Umut Sarac) Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 14:16:32 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: South East Asia Chemical Suppliers? In-Reply-To: References: <518C8C5A.50305@sharperstill.com> Message-ID: www.alibaba.com is the worlds largest online chemistry etc supplier. It is china based and you can search in countries from top also. Shipment is cheap , prices 1/100 of usa. You can free register and send a online message to the center , they arrange a free ad with your need and within 12 hours , 10 suppliers turns to you. Find a customs dealer at there and they are expert whom to bribe. This World turns by this way. If you want to deal with larger amount of crowd at alibaba , you can pay for second gold member registration for few dollars online and get more quote. You can buy a motorcycle for african roads less than 250 dollars at alibaba com. You must learn the shipment prices also , 1000 kilograms or 2200 pounds or 1 Cubic Meter good comes from Shangai to Istanbul for 15 dollars , fifteen dollars. Buy more and request ship Cargo and pay 30 dollars to the forwarder to bribe the customs. The chemical prices , electronic , machinery prices are EXTREMELLY low. Chemistry 100 times more expensive at the US. By the way dont jump in to first quatation , lower ones comes in 2 days. Wait. Good luck, Umut Istanbul Umut Istanbul On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 1:54 PM, Gerry Yaum wrote: > met phillip a few years back he was designing his new darkroom at the time, > walked me through it. I think he told me he was able to get all his > darkroom supplies delivered right to his door in Bangkok, you might want to > try to contact him if you have not already. I also wanted to do some wet > plate work in Bangkok in the future but was unable to track down the > chemistry (except a very expensive bostick and sullivan shipment method). > > Any more luck? > > Gerry > > www.gerryyaum.blogspot.com > > > On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 11:25 PM, gmail wrote: > > > Hi Eric - - > > > > When I took Mark Nelson's workshop, a wonderful photographer from Bangkok > > was there, Virakich Sudhasawin and we have kept in touch. I know he is > > doing platinum printing and also has an art supply business. If you > contact > > me off list, I would be happy to connect the two of you. > > > > Kate Jordahl > > kate at jordahlphoto.com > > www.katejordahl.com > > > > On May 10, 2013, at 9:51 PM, eric nelson wrote: > > > > > Thank you Jon, I'll drop them a note and see if they have any leads > here. > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Jon Reid > wrote: > > > > > >> Eric, > > >> The noted documentary photographer Philip Blenkinsop resides in > Bangkok > > >> and as far as I know continues analog photography. I don't think he > was > > >> ever into alt processes but was a huge fan of Type 55. He has a studio > > >> called 2snakestudio, there is a contact on this page > > >> http://www.philipblenkinsop.**com > > >> He's been in that area for nearly 20 years so may be able to help you. > > >> Photojournalist Jack Picone has also been there for years. I imagine > > he's > > >> mostly digital these days but would have been film for a while. > Contact > > >> details on his page http://www.jackpicone.com > > >> > > >> Jon > > >> > > >> eric nelson > > >>> 10 May 2013 3:43 PM > > >>> > > >>> I've been looking (Googling) for a photo chemical supplier here in > > >>> Thailand > > >>> or somewhere "nearby" with no luck at all. > > >>> I'm looking to get into wet plates (as well as back into the > processes > > I > > >>> did back in the states) but shipping those chems from my past > > suppliers in > > >>> the US is going to be very expensive plus one never knows what will > get > > >>> stopped by customs here. I just read of someone's vitamin shipment > > being > > >>> stopped by customs here. > > >>> > >>> package-is-stuck-at-**customsfda/< > > > http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/636989-help-my-package-is-stuck-at-customsfda/ > > > > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> Fortunately I was able to ship with our worldly goods, the bulk of my > > >>> apothecary, but that will last only so long and I could not ship > > anything > > >>> flammable or dangerous like drum scanning fluids and acids. > > >>> > > >>> I don't know if anyone on the list resides in this neck of the woods, > > but > > >>> any help or advice would be appreciated. > > >>> > > >>> e > > >>> ______________________________**_________________ > > >>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/**mailman/listinfo< > > http://lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo> > > >>> > > >> ______________________________**_________________ > > >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/**mailman/listinfo< > > http://lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo> > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > From inkyalchemy at gmail.com Mon May 20 13:28:35 2013 From: inkyalchemy at gmail.com (Christine Candora-Hickey) Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 09:28:35 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon In-Reply-To: <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com> References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com> <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com> <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Diana, thank you so much for posting this great review and recap of your time in Astoria. And what a treat to have some pictures of the show and the space to go along with it! That was very generous of you to take the time to do that for those of us that could not make it to see the show. It was much appreciated - Christine On Sun, May 19, 2013 at 6:40 PM, Diana Bloomfield wrote: > > Hi all, > > I wanted to finally report on the exhibit, "Two Friends Who Never Met," > that is now showing at Lightbox Photographic, in Astoria. We flew out last > Thursday and stayed through Tuesday-- and had an incredible time. I'd > never been to the Oregon coast before, and it is so so beautiful. I'm > pretty sure I could live there. Astoria is a wonderful small town about an > hour and a half from Portland. It's beautiful-- all the houses (mostly > Victorian) are scattered on little hills looking down on the Columbia > River. Sea lions are down there-- barking all night long. Fortunately, we > were in a Victorian that was high enough up the hills that we could hear > them only faintly. Michael and Chelsea, Lightbox owners, are terrific. We > had such a great time with them. > > We had spent Thursday night in Portland and drove the slow scenic route to > Astoria on Friday. Katharine's grown son and daughter, Doug and Heather, > came in on Friday as well. We had dinner with them and with Michael. > They're a lot of fun, and I think they really enjoyed talking about > Katharine, the "List," and the exhibit itself. I had never seen much of > Katharine's work, except what she had on her website-- which they have kept > online, by the way (katharinethayer.com). So much of her imagery was > very pale and subtle-- a Payne's Gray kind of minimalist look. And after > seeing the Oregon coast and that area, I can see why she might have chosen > that sort of subtlety as it really fit that environment and the way the > surroundings really appear. > > Katharine had about 7 siblings, I think, and 2 of her brothers and 3 > sisters came. I think they were all just incredibly touched by the show > itself, by all the work, and by the people who had a connection to her-- so > many of whom are showing work. I really really enjoyed talking to her > family. They're really interesting people and a close family. They were > very funny. I always thought Katharine had a great sense of humor, though > I sometimes think humor does not always translate so well online. But they > all seemed to know a lot of about the work she did, and they loved hearing > stories about the "List." And, well, there are some pretty funny ones. ;) > > Friday night was some sort of a First Friday art event in Astoria, so even > though the actual exhibit opening was Saturday night, tons of people came > through on Friday night. I think it's the biggest crowd of people I've > ever seen at a photography show (and an all gum show, for sure). In fact, > I've never seen an all gum show. And then Saturday was the actual opening. > Earlier that day, though, Michael had a smaller gathering of people-- > including all of Katharine's family-- and others. Heather, Katharine's > daughter, showed a slide show of Katharine and her siblings growing up on a > farm, in Oregon-- lots of great old images-- and then on up to the last > one, taken probably in the last year of her life. I never knew what she > looked like, so that was neat to see. And I gave a short talk about our > friendship and also what that friendship, her expertise-- and her > generosity in freely giving that out-- meant to me, and to a lot of people. > i also tried to be amusing in the li > ttle stories I told-- but-- again-- I think her family just really > appreciated the entire tribute-- really touched by it. > > Michael wanted me to give a gum demonstration for a small group of their > Lightbox members, and he'd asked that I bring some dichromate with me. ??? > Considering my hair clip gets me pulled aside in airport security, I > wasn't sure how accepted dichromate would be-- so Charles Ryberg, who is on > this List and who also has some wonderful prints in the show, was nice > enough to bring some dichromate-- already mixed-- along with gum-- so that > was really very helpful and greatly appreciated (possibly kept me out of > jail!)> > > So mainly, I wanted to say that to be able to see so much work by people > on this List was just incredible. Sometimes, when you see work online, the > work is either never as good in person-- or it's a disappointment in some > way. I have to say that all the juried work I saw ahead of time was pretty > wonderful-- but the real deals were absolutely breathtaking. I never saw > such great work. And I don't think I've ever seen an entire photography > show, and certainly not this big, that was all related to gum printing. > People were coming in and out all night Friday and on Saturday, and people > commented to me a lot about all the work-- and people were actually looking > at the work (which sometimes doesn't happen at openings-- or maybe that's > only at my openings//). > > I was pleased, too, that a few people came that I've met only online-- so > it was great to meet them in person, too. > > Thanks again so much to those of you who submitted work for this. I loved > seeing it all, and it meant so much to Katharine's family. The only > downside was that we couldn't take ALL of this great work. But every inch > of eye-level wall space was definitely used. Michael and Chelsea did a > beautiful job of framing and hanging this work. What I found interesting, > too, is the amazing mix of images. No image looked like any other. > > So I have been slowly uploading what are mostly iPhone pictures (so - > sorry for the quality). I don't have much up there yet, but I'll keep > adding. I put those in a "private gallery" on my website. So if you go > into the website (www.dhbloomfield.com) and click "login" at top right, > the password for that is "lightbox." I think Michael will be sending me > some, too, so I'll add those when I get them. > > And Michael sent me these links which are close-ups of all the work that's > in the show, so you can go through these, too. They are amazing. I'm not > going to name names of all those prints I kept staring at, because that > would be everybody's-- but I will say that I lobbied really really hard for > those white tulips of Chia's. I don't even know how you do something like > that. I brought up Mother's Day; future birthdays; future anniversaries . > . . > > So . . . I'm sorry for this way too-long post, but I wanted to update > everyone, especially those who got involved. Enjoy looking at all this > great work. > > http://lightbox-photographic.com/shows/two_friends_who_never_met > http://lightbox-photographic.com/exhibitions/twofriends/ > http://lightbox-photographic.com/exhibitions/twofriendsjuried/ > > > -Diana > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > -- Christine Candora-Hickey ================== Flickr Photo Album: http://www.flickr.com/photos/inkyalchemy/ LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/pub/christine-candora-hickey/40/556/aa From christinazanderson at gmail.com Mon May 20 16:15:25 2013 From: christinazanderson at gmail.com (Christina Anderson) Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 10:15:25 -0600 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon In-Reply-To: <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com> References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com> <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com> <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Diana, Thanks SO much for the report and links. So wonderful to see people's work and so much of it is beautiful! Question: what do you mean by "lobbied really hard;" was there a question of its inclusion in the show?? If so I am just flabbergasted that there was a question about the tulips, because that image is just glorious. I have always loved Chia's gum work, very elegant, romantic, textural. And white on white in gum is a real eye-stopper. But anyway, thank you for all the time you took to orchestrate, travel, and report about this show. Tom and I passed through Astoria a few years back, never having any idea that that was where Katharine lived. I think Robert Adams lives there if I am not mistaken? But it is quite the quaint town. In fact, we were towing a boat and boating on the Columbia, and got it stuck in the middle of the river in the sand, in Astoria. Scary, and dumb, at the time. Ate at a quaint "biker" bar, too. Chris > And Michael sent me these links which are close-ups of all the work that's in the show, so you can go through these, too. They are amazing. I'm not going to name names of all those prints I kept staring at, because that would be everybody's-- but I will say that I lobbied really really hard for those white tulips of Chia's. I don't even know how you do something like that. I brought up Mother's Day; future birthdays; future anniversaries . . . > http://lightbox-photographic.com/exhibitions/twofriends/ > http://lightbox-photographic.com/exhibitions/twofriendsjuried/ > > > -Diana > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From keith.gerling at gmail.com Mon May 20 16:27:15 2013 From: keith.gerling at gmail.com (Keith Gerling) Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 11:27:15 -0500 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon In-Reply-To: References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com> <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com> <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks so much, Diana. It is great to be able to see the installation shots. Keith On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Christina Anderson < christinazanderson at gmail.com> wrote: > Diana, > Thanks SO much for the report and links. So wonderful to see people's work > and so much of it is beautiful! > > Question: what do you mean by "lobbied really hard;" was there a question > of its inclusion in the show?? If so I am just flabbergasted that there > was a question about the tulips, because that image is just glorious. I > have always loved Chia's gum work, very elegant, romantic, textural. And > white on white in gum is a real eye-stopper. > > But anyway, thank you for all the time you took to orchestrate, travel, > and report about this show. > > Tom and I passed through Astoria a few years back, never having any idea > that that was where Katharine lived. > > I think Robert Adams lives there if I am not mistaken? > > But it is quite the quaint town. In fact, we were towing a boat and > boating on the Columbia, and got it stuck in the middle of the river in the > sand, in Astoria. Scary, and dumb, at the time. Ate at a quaint "biker" > bar, too. > Chris > > > And Michael sent me these links which are close-ups of all the work > that's in the show, so you can go through these, too. They are amazing. > I'm not going to name names of all those prints I kept staring at, because > that would be everybody's-- but I will say that I lobbied really really > hard for those white tulips of Chia's. I don't even know how you do > something like that. I brought up Mother's Day; future birthdays; future > anniversaries . . . > > http://lightbox-photographic.com/exhibitions/twofriends/ > > http://lightbox-photographic.com/exhibitions/twofriendsjuried/ > > > > > > -Diana > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > From dlhbloomfield at gmail.com Mon May 20 16:45:46 2013 From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 12:45:46 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon In-Reply-To: References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com> <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com> <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Chris, Gosh-- I better clarify what I mean about Chia's images--- First off, they are absolutely stunning, breathtaking images-- really, to die for. No-- what I actually meant was-- and I guess I should have been clearer-- I was lobbying for somebody to buy those white tulips for me! My husband, Peter, traveled with me. That's why I said I was mentioning all the future predictable holidays (birthdays; anniversaries; Christmas)-- because I think I really really need those white tulips in my house. That image (well, all of them) would look really spectacular on my walls. ;) In fact, that one in particular did have a red dot on it by the time I left, but I have no idea who bought it, unless it's a surprise for me (for one of those future predictable holidays). If it's not a surprise for me, and years go by and I never see it again, then I'll be very sad. ;) Honestly, there were so many images I would loved to have taken home with me. I could go on and on about all of them. Robert Adams does live in Astoria. Katharine grew up in Oregon, but I'm not sure she ever lived in Astoria. She moved around some in Oregon, but she last lived in Rainier, which is about 50 miles east of Astoria. She lived high above the Willamette River, or possibly that's still the Columbia (not sure)-- across from these paper mills. From a distance, they look almost other-worldly. I know she was photographing those a lot before she died. Astoria seems like quite a viable town. So many small towns here in the Southeast are just dying, or dead (loss of textiles and tobacco, mostly), so it's always a bit surprising to me to see active small towns with wonderful independent coffee shops and bookstores and a great photography gallery(!)-- no chain stores in sight-- nice to know that that still exists somewhere. Diana On May 20, 2013, at 12:15 PM, Christina Anderson wrote: > Diana, > Thanks SO much for the report and links. So wonderful to see people's work and so much of it is beautiful! > > Question: what do you mean by "lobbied really hard;" was there a question of its inclusion in the show?? If so I am just flabbergasted that there was a question about the tulips, because that image is just glorious. I have always loved Chia's gum work, very elegant, romantic, textural. And white on white in gum is a real eye-stopper. > > But anyway, thank you for all the time you took to orchestrate, travel, and report about this show. > > Tom and I passed through Astoria a few years back, never having any idea that that was where Katharine lived. > > I think Robert Adams lives there if I am not mistaken? > > But it is quite the quaint town. In fact, we were towing a boat and boating on the Columbia, and got it stuck in the middle of the river in the sand, in Astoria. Scary, and dumb, at the time. Ate at a quaint "biker" bar, too. > Chris > >> And Michael sent me these links which are close-ups of all the work that's in the show, so you can go through these, too. They are amazing. I'm not going to name names of all those prints I kept staring at, because that would be everybody's-- but I will say that I lobbied really really hard for those white tulips of Chia's. I don't even know how you do something like that. I brought up Mother's Day; future birthdays; future anniversaries . . . >> http://lightbox-photographic.com/exhibitions/twofriends/ >> http://lightbox-photographic.com/exhibitions/twofriendsjuried/ >> >> >> -Diana >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From dlhbloomfield at gmail.com Mon May 20 16:52:27 2013 From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 12:52:27 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon In-Reply-To: References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com> <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com> <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <06232935-823E-4D77-AA08-9F313CF97862@gmail.com> Hey Keith, Thanks; I have more, and I'll try to upload the rest today. Michael and Chelsea really did do a great job with everything. And your images on wood were amazing, really. It's hard to believe you can achieve that kind of quality in the printing, on (marine?) wood. Those portraits are so striking. I liked the differences between them, too. They really did show what the gum process is capable of doing-- each so different from the other. But even though I'd seen everyone's work who submitted something-- to see it all in person was such an eye-opener. I was just so taken with the quality, and the imagery itself. The images (subject matter), as well as the printing, varied quite a bit-- but all just so beautifully done. It was very inspiring. Diana On May 20, 2013, at 12:27 PM, Keith Gerling wrote: > Thanks so much, Diana. It is great to be able to see the installation > shots. > > Keith > > From christinazanderson at gmail.com Mon May 20 17:07:09 2013 From: christinazanderson at gmail.com (Christina Anderson) Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 11:07:09 -0600 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon In-Reply-To: References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com> <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com> <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <88592D2C-686C-400C-B70F-642B6EFAF68F@gmail.com> OH my goodness, Diana, thanks for clarifying! Lobbying your HUSBAND, LOL. That is too funny. Tom and I were in a gallery in New Orleans once, and I used this technique: I said to him, "You know which image I would buy if I were buying?" and I told him. He told me that was the exact image he would buy, too! So we somehow managed to fan each other's fire and bought it! It was surprising because we are really not art collectors per se and didn't have the money at the time but we actually agreed on a piece of artwork, which in itself was surprising. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On May 20, 2013, at 10:45 AM, Diana Bloomfield wrote: > Hey Chris, > > Gosh-- I better clarify what I mean about Chia's images--- First off, they are absolutely stunning, breathtaking images-- really, to die for. No-- what I actually meant was-- and I guess I should have been clearer-- I was lobbying for somebody to buy those white tulips for me! My husband, Peter, traveled with me. That's why I said I was mentioning all the future predictable holidays (birthdays; anniversaries; Christmas)-- because I think I really really need those white tulips in my house. That image (well, all of them) would look really spectacular on my walls. ;) In fact, that one in particular did have a red dot on it by the time I left, but I have no idea who bought it, unless it's a surprise for me (for one of those future predictable holidays). If it's not a surprise for me, and years go by and I never see it again, then I'll be very sad. ;) Honestly, there were so many images I would loved to have taken home with me. I could go on and on about all of them. > > Robert Adams does live in Astoria. > > Katharine grew up in Oregon, but I'm not sure she ever lived in Astoria. She moved around some in Oregon, but she last lived in Rainier, which is about 50 miles east of Astoria. She lived high above the Willamette River, or possibly that's still the Columbia (not sure)-- across from these paper mills. From a distance, they look almost other-worldly. I know she was photographing those a lot before she died. > > Astoria seems like quite a viable town. So many small towns here in the Southeast are just dying, or dead (loss of textiles and tobacco, mostly), so it's always a bit surprising to me to see active small towns with wonderful independent coffee shops and bookstores and a great photography gallery(!)-- no chain stores in sight-- nice to know that that still exists somewhere. > > Diana > > > > > On May 20, 2013, at 12:15 PM, Christina Anderson wrote: > >> Diana, >> Thanks SO much for the report and links. So wonderful to see people's work and so much of it is beautiful! >> >> Question: what do you mean by "lobbied really hard;" was there a question of its inclusion in the show?? If so I am just flabbergasted that there was a question about the tulips, because that image is just glorious. I have always loved Chia's gum work, very elegant, romantic, textural. And white on white in gum is a real eye-stopper. >> >> But anyway, thank you for all the time you took to orchestrate, travel, and report about this show. >> >> Tom and I passed through Astoria a few years back, never having any idea that that was where Katharine lived. >> >> I think Robert Adams lives there if I am not mistaken? >> >> But it is quite the quaint town. In fact, we were towing a boat and boating on the Columbia, and got it stuck in the middle of the river in the sand, in Astoria. Scary, and dumb, at the time. Ate at a quaint "biker" bar, too. >> Chris >> >>> And Michael sent me these links which are close-ups of all the work that's in the show, so you can go through these, too. They are amazing. I'm not going to name names of all those prints I kept staring at, because that would be everybody's-- but I will say that I lobbied really really hard for those white tulips of Chia's. I don't even know how you do something like that. I brought up Mother's Day; future birthdays; future anniversaries . . . >>> http://lightbox-photographic.com/exhibitions/twofriends/ >>> http://lightbox-photographic.com/exhibitions/twofriendsjuried/ >>> >>> >>> -Diana >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From kerik at kerik.com Mon May 20 17:48:53 2013 From: kerik at kerik.com (Kerik Kouklis) Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 10:48:53 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon In-Reply-To: <88592D2C-686C-400C-B70F-642B6EFAF68F@gmail.com> References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com> <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com> <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com> <88592D2C-686C-400C-B70F-642B6EFAF68F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <001201ce5582$4ba07740$e2e165c0$@kerik.com> Diana, Thanks for sharing your experience. What a perfectly eclectic show, as an all-gum show should be. -Kerik > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt- > photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of Christina > Anderson > Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 10:07 AM > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon > > OH my goodness, Diana, thanks for clarifying! Lobbying your HUSBAND, LOL. > That is too funny. > Tom and I were in a gallery in New Orleans once, and I used this technique: I > said to him, "You know which image I would buy if I were buying?" and I told > him. He told me that was the exact image he would buy, too! So we > somehow managed to fan each other's fire and bought it! It was surprising > because we are really not art collectors per se and didn't have the money at > the time but we actually agreed on a piece of artwork, which in itself was > surprising. > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > On May 20, 2013, at 10:45 AM, Diana Bloomfield wrote: > > > Hey Chris, > > > > Gosh-- I better clarify what I mean about Chia's images--- First off, they are > absolutely stunning, breathtaking images-- really, to die for. No-- what I > actually meant was-- and I guess I should have been clearer-- I was lobbying > for somebody to buy those white tulips for me! My husband, Peter, > traveled with me. That's why I said I was mentioning all the future > predictable holidays (birthdays; anniversaries; Christmas)-- because I think I > really really need those white tulips in my house. That image (well, all of > them) would look really spectacular on my walls. ;) In fact, that one in > particular did have a red dot on it by the time I left, but I have no idea who > bought it, unless it's a surprise for me (for one of those future predictable > holidays). If it's not a surprise for me, and years go by and I never see it > again, then I'll be very sad. ;) Honestly, there were so many images I would > loved to have taken home with me. I could go on and on about all of them. > > > > Robert Adams does live in Astoria. > > > > Katharine grew up in Oregon, but I'm not sure she ever lived in Astoria. > She moved around some in Oregon, but she last lived in Rainier, which is > about 50 miles east of Astoria. She lived high above the Willamette River, or > possibly that's still the Columbia (not sure)-- across from these paper mills. > From a distance, they look almost other-worldly. I know she was > photographing those a lot before she died. > > > > Astoria seems like quite a viable town. So many small towns here in the > Southeast are just dying, or dead (loss of textiles and tobacco, mostly), so it's > always a bit surprising to me to see active small towns with wonderful > independent coffee shops and bookstores and a great photography > gallery(!)-- no chain stores in sight-- nice to know that that still exists > somewhere. > > > > Diana > > > > > > > > > > On May 20, 2013, at 12:15 PM, Christina Anderson wrote: > > > >> Diana, > >> Thanks SO much for the report and links. So wonderful to see people's > work and so much of it is beautiful! > >> > >> Question: what do you mean by "lobbied really hard;" was there a > question of its inclusion in the show?? If so I am just flabbergasted that > there was a question about the tulips, because that image is just glorious. I > have always loved Chia's gum work, very elegant, romantic, textural. And > white on white in gum is a real eye-stopper. > >> > >> But anyway, thank you for all the time you took to orchestrate, travel, and > report about this show. > >> > >> Tom and I passed through Astoria a few years back, never having any idea > that that was where Katharine lived. > >> > >> I think Robert Adams lives there if I am not mistaken? > >> > >> But it is quite the quaint town. In fact, we were towing a boat and boating > on the Columbia, and got it stuck in the middle of the river in the sand, in > Astoria. Scary, and dumb, at the time. Ate at a quaint "biker" bar, too. > >> Chris > >> > >>> And Michael sent me these links which are close-ups of all the work > that's in the show, so you can go through these, too. They are amazing. I'm > not going to name names of all those prints I kept staring at, because that > would be everybody's-- but I will say that I lobbied really really hard for those > white tulips of Chia's. I don't even know how you do something like that. I > brought up Mother's Day; future birthdays; future anniversaries . . . > >>> http://lightbox-photographic.com/exhibitions/twofriends/ > >>> http://lightbox-photographic.com/exhibitions/twofriendsjuried/ > >>> > >>> > >>> -Diana > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Mon May 20 18:04:59 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 18:04:59 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon In-Reply-To: References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com>, , <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com>, , , <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com>, , Message-ID: Chia, I was really taken by your poppy print. I was trying to deconstruct it like you would a dish in the restaurant. How many negatives, layers, colors? Were the layers lightly pigmented or stongly pigmented and washed back? Sometimes it is just esiest to ask chef for the recipe (in this case the artist). If you are listening to the conversation could you elaborate on your workflow? Marek From mail at loris.medici.name Mon May 20 18:35:55 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 21:35:55 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, This is just for the records; I managed to get smooth Argyrotype test prints on FAEW/SP (de-alkalized with sulfamic acid), which have good dmax and won't show any bronzing or unevenness to the naked eye. See my working parameters below: (These may help as a starting point for some of you...) - 2+1 diluted sensitizer - 0.25ml coating solution per 10 sq. in. (brush coating) - 2 drops 10% Tween 20 per ml of coating solution - Drying time: 60 minutes @ 23C / 50% RH - Gold-thiourea toning See the result here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/loris-medici/8757864351/ That's all from my part, I'll continue to the calibration and do my first real print on this paper in a couple of days. Done with testing / tech talk, lots of printing from now on... Regards, Loris. 2013/5/18 Loris Medici > Hi Marek, > > FAEW/SP is pretty hard surfaced, I'm still trying to find the best > combination of diluted sensitizer volume per given area and Tween strength > per given sensitizer volume. I'm still not there but I'm pretty close; my > benchmark is pop Pd on the same paper. (A pretty high criterion!) The > results are way better than single coated Vandyke but not as good as I > would like them to be... I'm going to increase both the coating volume and > drying time; I see occasional unevenness / bronzing in the prints. That > could be due both (a.) insufficent coating volume and (b.) unsufficent > drying time. (I'm going to try 0.25ml diluted sensitizer per 10 sq. in. and > a drying time of min. 60 minutes later today - I was working with 0.20ml/ > 10sq.in. and 40 minutes before...) > > Regards, > Loris. > > > 2013/5/18 Marek Matusz > >> Loris, >> >> I noticed that when I put the files in the same folder for upload. SO I >> took both prints and examined them side by side. The print on Fabriano SF >> is indeed somewhat lighter, perhaps half the step. I think that the >> contrast is lower then the print of Rising Stonenge. >> >> On a separate note. Does anybody know what is the shelf life of coated >> argyrotype papers? The chemistry seems to be pretty stable. >> >> Marek >> > From chiahans at pictoform.nu Mon May 20 20:54:35 2013 From: chiahans at pictoform.nu (Hans Nohlberg) Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 22:54:35 +0200 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon In-Reply-To: References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com>, , <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com>, , , <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com>, , Message-ID: <6E2D3BCA-3474-45F5-BA22-F85067001B6F@pictoform.nu> Hi Diana, Chris and Marek Thank you so very much for your feedback on my images on Lightbox gallery. My mother in law is with Hans and me a few days to celebrate his 87th birthday and goes home on Thursday. Then I will email my "recipe", Marek :-) Thanks Chia 20 maj 2013 kl. 20.04 skrev Marek Matusz: > > Chia, > > I was really taken by your poppy print. I was trying to deconstruct it like you would a dish in the restaurant. How many negatives, layers, colors? Were the layers lightly pigmented or stongly pigmented and washed back? > > > > Sometimes it is just esiest to ask chef for the recipe (in this case the artist). > > > > If you are listening to the conversation could you elaborate on your workflow? > > > > Marek > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo PS . V?r hemsida ?r nu ?ntligen uppdaterad! Our website is, finally, updated! Atelier Pictoform Hans Nohlberg & Chia N-L?fqvist Folketshusgatan 1 SE - 267 41 Bjuv Sweden +46 (0)42 141818 Mobile: 0739 744424 www.pictoform.nu www.artphotocollection.com www.etsabild.com www.goldstreetstudios.com.au From emanphoto at gmail.com Tue May 21 04:38:09 2013 From: emanphoto at gmail.com (eric nelson) Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 11:38:09 +0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: South East Asia Chemical Suppliers? In-Reply-To: References: <518C8C5A.50305@sharperstill.com> Message-ID: Hi Mustafa, I am aware of the Alibaba site and I'm wondering if you've had any personal experience with chemical sellers there? I'm wondering how they can ship 1000 kilos of something for $15 US? Eric On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Mustafa Umut Sarac < mustafaumutsarac at gmail.com> wrote: > www.alibaba.com is the worlds largest online chemistry etc supplier. It > is > china based and you can search in countries from top also. > Shipment is cheap , prices 1/100 of usa. > > You can free register and send a online message to the center , they > arrange a free ad with your need and within 12 hours , 10 suppliers turns > to you. Find a customs dealer at there and they are expert whom to bribe. > This World turns by this way. > > If you want to deal with larger amount of crowd at alibaba , you can pay > for second gold member registration for few dollars online and > get more quote. > > You can buy a motorcycle for african roads less than 250 dollars at alibaba > com. > > You must learn the shipment prices also , 1000 kilograms or 2200 pounds or > 1 Cubic Meter good comes from Shangai to Istanbul for 15 dollars , fifteen > dollars. > > Buy more and request ship Cargo and pay 30 dollars to the forwarder to > bribe the customs. > > The chemical prices , electronic , machinery prices are EXTREMELLY low. > Chemistry 100 times more expensive at the US. > > By the way dont jump in to first quatation , lower ones comes in 2 days. > Wait. > > Good luck, > Umut > Istanbul > > > Umut > Istanbul > > > On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 1:54 PM, Gerry Yaum wrote: > > > met phillip a few years back he was designing his new darkroom at the > time, > > walked me through it. I think he told me he was able to get all his > > darkroom supplies delivered right to his door in Bangkok, you might want > to > > try to contact him if you have not already. I also wanted to do some wet > > plate work in Bangkok in the future but was unable to track down the > > chemistry (except a very expensive bostick and sullivan shipment method). > > > > Any more luck? > > > > Gerry > > > > www.gerryyaum.blogspot.com > > > > > > On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 11:25 PM, gmail wrote: > > > > > Hi Eric - - > > > > > > When I took Mark Nelson's workshop, a wonderful photographer from > Bangkok > > > was there, Virakich Sudhasawin and we have kept in touch. I know he is > > > doing platinum printing and also has an art supply business. If you > > contact > > > me off list, I would be happy to connect the two of you. > > > > > > Kate Jordahl > > > kate at jordahlphoto.com > > > www.katejordahl.com > > > > > > On May 10, 2013, at 9:51 PM, eric nelson wrote: > > > > > > > Thank you Jon, I'll drop them a note and see if they have any leads > > here. > > > > Eric > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, May 10, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Jon Reid > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Eric, > > > >> The noted documentary photographer Philip Blenkinsop resides in > > Bangkok > > > >> and as far as I know continues analog photography. I don't think he > > was > > > >> ever into alt processes but was a huge fan of Type 55. He has a > studio > > > >> called 2snakestudio, there is a contact on this page > > > >> http://www.philipblenkinsop.**com > > > >> He's been in that area for nearly 20 years so may be able to help > you. > > > >> Photojournalist Jack Picone has also been there for years. I imagine > > > he's > > > >> mostly digital these days but would have been film for a while. > > Contact > > > >> details on his page http://www.jackpicone.com > > > >> > > > >> Jon > > > >> > > > >> eric nelson > > > >>> 10 May 2013 3:43 PM > > > >>> > > > >>> I've been looking (Googling) for a photo chemical supplier here in > > > >>> Thailand > > > >>> or somewhere "nearby" with no luck at all. > > > >>> I'm looking to get into wet plates (as well as back into the > > processes > > > I > > > >>> did back in the states) but shipping those chems from my past > > > suppliers in > > > >>> the US is going to be very expensive plus one never knows what will > > get > > > >>> stopped by customs here. I just read of someone's vitamin shipment > > > being > > > >>> stopped by customs here. > > > >>> > > >>> package-is-stuck-at-**customsfda/< > > > > > > http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/636989-help-my-package-is-stuck-at-customsfda/ > > > > > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Fortunately I was able to ship with our worldly goods, the bulk of > my > > > >>> apothecary, but that will last only so long and I could not ship > > > anything > > > >>> flammable or dangerous like drum scanning fluids and acids. > > > >>> > > > >>> I don't know if anyone on the list resides in this neck of the > woods, > > > but > > > >>> any help or advice would be appreciated. > > > >>> > > > >>> e > > > >>> ______________________________**_________________ > > > >>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/**mailman/listinfo > < > > > http://lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo> > > > >>> > > > >> ______________________________**_________________ > > > >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/**mailman/listinfo< > > > http://lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo> > > > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > -- Eric Nelson Photography 086 343 1612 http://ericnelsonphoto.tumblr.com/ https://www.facebook.com/EricNelsonPhotographyBangkok From john at johnbrewerphotography.com Wed May 22 12:34:22 2013 From: john at johnbrewerphotography.com (John Brewer) Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 13:34:22 +0100 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon In-Reply-To: <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com> References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com> <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com> <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Diana Just back from being away to read and see the exhibited image. What a wonderful write up and a fantastic set of images. It must have been very moving meeting Katharine's family and seeing all these wonderful images from people from across the world. Thank you, Michael and Chelsea for all the hard work you put into this, a fitting tribute to Katharine. John. On 19 May 2013 23:40, Diana Bloomfield wrote: > > Hi all, > > I wanted to finally report on the exhibit, "Two Friends Who Never Met," > that is now showing at Lightbox Photographic, in Astoria. We flew out last > Thursday and stayed through Tuesday-- and had an incredible time. I'd > never been to the Oregon coast before, and it is so so beautiful. I'm > pretty sure I could live there. Astoria is a wonderful small town about an > hour and a half from Portland. It's beautiful-- all the houses (mostly > Victorian) are scattered on little hills looking down on the Columbia > River. Sea lions are down there-- barking all night long. Fortunately, we > were in a Victorian that was high enough up the hills that we could hear > them only faintly. Michael and Chelsea, Lightbox owners, are terrific. We > had such a great time with them. > > We had spent Thursday night in Portland and drove the slow scenic route to > Astoria on Friday. Katharine's grown son and daughter, Doug and Heather, > came in on Friday as well. We had dinner with them and with Michael. > They're a lot of fun, and I think they really enjoyed talking about > Katharine, the "List," and the exhibit itself. I had never seen much of > Katharine's work, except what she had on her website-- which they have kept > online, by the way (katharinethayer.com). So much of her imagery was > very pale and subtle-- a Payne's Gray kind of minimalist look. And after > seeing the Oregon coast and that area, I can see why she might have chosen > that sort of subtlety as it really fit that environment and the way the > surroundings really appear. > > Katharine had about 7 siblings, I think, and 2 of her brothers and 3 > sisters came. I think they were all just incredibly touched by the show > itself, by all the work, and by the people who had a connection to her-- so > many of whom are showing work. I really really enjoyed talking to her > family. They're really interesting people and a close family. They were > very funny. I always thought Katharine had a great sense of humor, though > I sometimes think humor does not always translate so well online. But they > all seemed to know a lot of about the work she did, and they loved hearing > stories about the "List." And, well, there are some pretty funny ones. ;) > > Friday night was some sort of a First Friday art event in Astoria, so even > though the actual exhibit opening was Saturday night, tons of people came > through on Friday night. I think it's the biggest crowd of people I've > ever seen at a photography show (and an all gum show, for sure). In fact, > I've never seen an all gum show. And then Saturday was the actual opening. > Earlier that day, though, Michael had a smaller gathering of people-- > including all of Katharine's family-- and others. Heather, Katharine's > daughter, showed a slide show of Katharine and her siblings growing up on a > farm, in Oregon-- lots of great old images-- and then on up to the last > one, taken probably in the last year of her life. I never knew what she > looked like, so that was neat to see. And I gave a short talk about our > friendship and also what that friendship, her expertise-- and her > generosity in freely giving that out-- meant to me, and to a lot of people. > i also tried to be amusing in the li > ttle stories I told-- but-- again-- I think her family just really > appreciated the entire tribute-- really touched by it. > > Michael wanted me to give a gum demonstration for a small group of their > Lightbox members, and he'd asked that I bring some dichromate with me. ??? > Considering my hair clip gets me pulled aside in airport security, I > wasn't sure how accepted dichromate would be-- so Charles Ryberg, who is on > this List and who also has some wonderful prints in the show, was nice > enough to bring some dichromate-- already mixed-- along with gum-- so that > was really very helpful and greatly appreciated (possibly kept me out of > jail!)> > > So mainly, I wanted to say that to be able to see so much work by people > on this List was just incredible. Sometimes, when you see work online, the > work is either never as good in person-- or it's a disappointment in some > way. I have to say that all the juried work I saw ahead of time was pretty > wonderful-- but the real deals were absolutely breathtaking. I never saw > such great work. And I don't think I've ever seen an entire photography > show, and certainly not this big, that was all related to gum printing. > People were coming in and out all night Friday and on Saturday, and people > commented to me a lot about all the work-- and people were actually looking > at the work (which sometimes doesn't happen at openings-- or maybe that's > only at my openings//). > > I was pleased, too, that a few people came that I've met only online-- so > it was great to meet them in person, too. > > Thanks again so much to those of you who submitted work for this. I loved > seeing it all, and it meant so much to Katharine's family. The only > downside was that we couldn't take ALL of this great work. But every inch > of eye-level wall space was definitely used. Michael and Chelsea did a > beautiful job of framing and hanging this work. What I found interesting, > too, is the amazing mix of images. No image looked like any other. > > So I have been slowly uploading what are mostly iPhone pictures (so - > sorry for the quality). I don't have much up there yet, but I'll keep > adding. I put those in a "private gallery" on my website. So if you go > into the website (www.dhbloomfield.com) and click "login" at top right, > the password for that is "lightbox." I think Michael will be sending me > some, too, so I'll add those when I get them. > > And Michael sent me these links which are close-ups of all the work that's > in the show, so you can go through these, too. They are amazing. I'm not > going to name names of all those prints I kept staring at, because that > would be everybody's-- but I will say that I lobbied really really hard for > those white tulips of Chia's. I don't even know how you do something like > that. I brought up Mother's Day; future birthdays; future anniversaries . > . . > > So . . . I'm sorry for this way too-long post, but I wanted to update > everyone, especially those who got involved. Enjoy looking at all this > great work. > > http://lightbox-photographic.com/shows/two_friends_who_never_met > http://lightbox-photographic.com/exhibitions/twofriends/ > http://lightbox-photographic.com/exhibitions/twofriendsjuried/ > > > -Diana > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > -- John Brewer www.johnbrewerphotography.com workshops:equipment sales:chemistry sales From crhymer at northwestel.net Thu May 23 01:19:34 2013 From: crhymer at northwestel.net (Clarence Rhymer) Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 19:19:34 -0600 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon In-Reply-To: <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com> References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com> <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com> <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: <519D6EA6.9090307@northwestel.net> Hi Diana, Thank you so much for doing this. I am a long-time member of the list and a gum printer, but I have never contributed much. However, I know some of the people here, mostly through other things alt, and not-so-alt-photo. I am thrilled to see the diversity of subject and gum technique that is shown in the Exhibit. I followed the discussions here, both heated and warm, over the years (it seems to be more subdued now), but have learned much from Katharine, Judy, Christina, yourself and many others. While people were active on the list, I thought I knew them by their style, turn of phrase, etc. Once they were gone, or at least otherwise occupied (like Judy) I have come to realize that I knew very little about their lives outside of the list. I was shocked when I heard that Katharine had passed on. It never occurred to me that she was anything but in the prime of life. So, I was hoping that the Exhibit would include a bio of Katharine. You have given us some info about her family, but I am curious about who she was, how she lived her life, and what inspired her art. Please forgive me if this have been included in the Exhibit info, or elsewhere, but I looked through it all, and could not find it. Thanks in advance. Cheers, Clarence Rhymer (possibly the only gum printer) in Fort Smith, NT, Canada From dlhbloomfield at gmail.com Thu May 23 04:14:46 2013 From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 00:14:46 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon In-Reply-To: <519D6EA6.9090307@northwestel.net> References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com> <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com> <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com> <519D6EA6.9090307@northwestel.net> Message-ID: Hi Clarence, Thanks so much for posting, and I appreciate your comments. I'm so glad you asked the question, too. I'll pass along your post to Katharine's daughter, Heather, who might want to offer more information than what I can possibly tell you. As I mentioned in another post, Heather showed a wonderful edited slide show of still images, from the time Katharine was very little up through an image of her in the last year or so of her life. She, her parents, and (7, if I counted right) siblings grew up in Tillamook, Oregon. From looking at the slides-- when they were all little-- you couldn't even tell them apart-- all tall blue-eyed blonds. I kept asking that night what the order, in age, of the siblings was, and every time I asked, they all talked at once, so I still don't have a clue-- but I do know Katharine was not the oldest. The family is very close. One of the sisters (the oldest, I think) came in from South Dakota for the event. I thanked her for coming, and she made the comment, "Well, of course. When it's important, we're always there-- we always show up. And this was important." They're really a great family-- and just very outgoing-- great collective sense of humor-- and very interested in hearing about Katharine's work and her involvement in this List. Her family told me that the name Thayer was actually their (her) mother's maiden name, which she took as her own. Their family (father's) name was George. I had never really seen photos of Katharine, so it was fun to see all those images. She looked tall and gangly and athletic when she was younger and seemed to be quite the outdoorsy type. Her family made a joke about how she stayed barefoot all the time-- and, certainly, so many of the photos showed her enjoying the outdoors, typically barefoot, camera in hand. I love seeing photographs of people when they were young(er) as I think they tell you so much about what a person is truly like. You can see, through images, how someone might have aged into the person he or she has become. So Katharine has a grown son and daughter (Heather and Doug), and they were raised in Oregon. I really liked them a lot. It seems she moved around Oregon quite a bit. She was formally trained as a statistician and I believe worked for a while in educational testing. The last place she lived was in Rainier, Oregon, about 50 miles east of Astoria, in a house high on a hill overlooking the Willamette River. Lots of little stone walls around the property, and glass windows in the back, looking out on the River. She had been working really hard on her landscaping, and it was a lovely home. They gave me her address, so we went by there on our way back to the airport. I was interested in seeing it, because she would tell me about all this work she was doing there, and when I saw it, it was just as I had envisioned from her descriptions. She had also photographed these string of paper mills from across the River for the longest time, which are almost other-worldly in their appearance (in a 'Blade-Runner' sort of way), and she captured that really well in these images she'd emailed me. Her family had some amusing stories about all the places she'd lived in Oregon-- all these places ultimately had something terribly wrong with them, hence all the moving around-- but they added--- for all that, she sure knew how to pick great locations. (That's a photographer for you.) I don't know Katharine's exact age when she died, but I think she was in her early- to mid-70's. She did have a serious heart condition and was a frequent visitor to cardiologists. I asked how she died, because I had just talked to her, via email, the day before, and she seemed fine. They told me they didn't really know-- but that she had been sick with the flu, and she did have this heart problem, so . . . Her death was unexpected for everyone. Interestingly, one of her brothers asked me if we ever talked on the phone. We hadn't, and he asked if we ever even mentioned to each other that we should talk on the phone-- and, honestly, I don't think that ever occurred to either of us. It seemed like the perfect friendship-- all email. We really did email almost every day- about everything, really. And I sometimes think people (or maybe it's just me) edit their words so much before it hits this List, that someone's real personality perhaps never shines through. But while Katharine was ever the educator and perfectionist-- she was also just so funny (very dry sense of humor). After being with her family for a while, I saw that they're all like that-- just very with it and very amusing. And I often think, with Katharine, that never translated on here as much as it did in our email exchanges. But I think she was in communication with a lot of people, on this List and elsewhere, via email. I can't tell you how many people wrote to tell me that they would have never been gum printers had it not been for her help. As far as her own interest in gum printing, like most of us, she had an initial interest in photographing and photography. A look at some of those images in the slide show suggested that she always had a camera in her hand. She actually mentions on her website that she only ever made one print of anything. Heather told me when they sorted through all her images, they had to find ones that she'd actually signed-- because they knew that this meant it was a finished print. That's a good rule to have, I guess. When I hear stories like that, I immediately think I need to seriously clean up things around here. Anyway-- I used a quote in the exhibit write-up that I had pulled from her website, which was this: "I had a mental picture of the kind of photograph I wanted to make. I had never seen any photographs like them, but I was determined to find a way to make them, these pictures I saw in my head. Their colors were soft and relatively unsaturated, but with a kind of glow about them. I had never seen autochromes, but years later when I saw some reproductions of autochromes, I realized that the look of autochromes is probably closer to what I was imagining than anything that was ever done in gum historically . . . I set out first to teach myself to print in gum, then to adapt the method to produce the kinds of pictures I wanted to make, and have been making them ever since." That's just an excerpt, but you can read more about what she says about that on her website (katharinethayer.com). So she really didn't print in any other alt process, other than gum, and she was self-taught. I don't think she did very many tricolor gums, but the ones she did were also soft and beautiful, and -- in their own way-- much like the more minimalist one-coat gums she did. One look at the Oregon coast, and it was that environment that seemed to have inspired so much of her work. So this is already again too long, but I hope that fills in a few gaps for you. Oh-- and as "possibly the only gum printer in Fort Smith," you must be keeping very busy. :) Diana On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 9:19 PM, Clarence Rhymer wrote: > Hi Diana, > > Thank you so much for doing this. I am a long-time member of the list and > a gum printer, but I have never contributed much. However, I know some of > the people here, mostly through other things alt, and not-so-alt-photo. I > am thrilled to see the diversity of subject and gum technique that is shown > in the Exhibit. I followed the discussions here, both heated and warm, > over the years (it seems to be more subdued now), but have learned much > from Katharine, Judy, Christina, yourself and many others. While people > were active on the list, I thought I knew them by their style, turn of > phrase, etc. Once they were gone, or at least otherwise occupied (like > Judy) I have come to realize that I knew very little about their lives > outside of the list. I was shocked when I heard that Katharine had passed > on. It never occurred to me that she was anything but in the prime of life. > > So, I was hoping that the Exhibit would include a bio of Katharine. You > have given us some info about her family, but I am curious about who she > was, how she lived her life, and what inspired her art. Please forgive me > if this have been included in the Exhibit info, or elsewhere, but I looked > through it all, and could not find it. > > Thanks in advance. > > Cheers, > > Clarence Rhymer > (possibly the only gum printer) in Fort Smith, NT, Canada > > ______________________________**_________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/**mailman/listinfo > From chiahans at pictoform.nu Thu May 23 18:37:46 2013 From: chiahans at pictoform.nu (Hans Nohlberg) Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 20:37:46 +0200 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon In-Reply-To: References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com>, , <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com>, , , <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com>, , Message-ID: <47D0570A-D56F-47F5-909F-49B2FB699309@pictoform.nu> Marek, As promised here is my "recipe": For the Poppy - and usually for most of my four colour gums - I use one negative. (Sometimes I use separation negatives but for me it's not the same fun/challenge.) I start with a "sketch" - a weak black layer (lampblack, powder - "true", not synthetic) The next layer is yellow (Schmincke, powder) and I cover the whole image area. In the "development" I brush those parts away that shouldn't contain yellow (in so far as it goes.) The next layer is magenta (Schmincke, powder) - and the same procedure Next layer is cyan (Schmincke, powder) - and the same procedure - now the fun begins and you can see a colour image. It's all worth it! Finally, lampblack again, for the contrast etc. The Poppy is an analog image (Hasselblad). At that time I went into the darkroom and made a print on a photographic plastic paper and then put this print in contact with the film for the negative. Very simple and smooth workflow. (There are some text in the background of the image saying Kodak! Maybe, I should have chosen a paper without this text but it gave me some structure in the background!) Hope this helps Chia 20 maj 2013 kl. 20.04 skrev Marek Matusz: > > Chia, > > I was really taken by your poppy print. I was trying to deconstruct it like you would a dish in the restaurant. How many negatives, layers, colors? Were the layers lightly pigmented or stongly pigmented and washed back? > > > > Sometimes it is just esiest to ask chef for the recipe (in this case the artist). > > > > If you are listening to the conversation could you elaborate on your workflow? > > > > Marek > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo PS . V?r hemsida ?r nu ?ntligen uppdaterad! Our website is, finally, updated! Atelier Pictoform Hans Nohlberg & Chia N-L?fqvist Folketshusgatan 1 SE - 267 41 Bjuv Sweden +46 (0)42 141818 Mobile: 0739 744424 www.pictoform.nu www.artphotocollection.com www.etsabild.com www.goldstreetstudios.com.au From dlhbloomfield at gmail.com Thu May 23 18:54:09 2013 From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 14:54:09 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon In-Reply-To: <47D0570A-D56F-47F5-909F-49B2FB699309@pictoform.nu> References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com>, , <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com>, , , <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com>, , <47D0570A-D56F-47F5-909F-49B2FB699309@pictoform.nu> Message-ID: Hi Chia, Wow-- thanks so much for sharing this. I'm amazed that you use only one negative and can achieve those results. Your prints are truly spectacular. You make it sound so easy, but I'm thinking it's actually not. ;) Stunning prints, really . . . it was hard to take my eyes off of them. Thanks for allowing them to make that long trip to Oregon, too! Diana On May 23, 2013, at 2:37 PM, Hans Nohlberg wrote: > Marek, > > As promised here is my "recipe": > > For the Poppy - and usually for most of my four colour gums - I use one negative. (Sometimes I use separation negatives but for me it's not the same fun/challenge.) > > I start with a "sketch" - a weak black layer (lampblack, powder - "true", not synthetic) > The next layer is yellow (Schmincke, powder) and I cover the whole image area. In the "development" I brush those parts away that shouldn't contain yellow (in so far as it goes.) > The next layer is magenta (Schmincke, powder) - and the same procedure > Next layer is cyan (Schmincke, powder) - and the same procedure - now the fun begins and you can see a colour image. It's all worth it! > Finally, lampblack again, for the contrast etc. > > The Poppy is an analog image (Hasselblad). At that time I went into the darkroom and made a print on a photographic plastic paper and then put this print in contact with the film for the negative. Very simple and smooth workflow. (There are some text in the background of the image saying Kodak! Maybe, I should have chosen a paper without this text but it gave me some structure in the background!) > > > Hope this helps > Chia > > > 20 maj 2013 kl. 20.04 skrev Marek Matusz: > >> >> Chia, >> >> I was really taken by your poppy print. I was trying to deconstruct it like you would a dish in the restaurant. How many negatives, layers, colors? Were the layers lightly pigmented or stongly pigmented and washed back? >> >> >> >> Sometimes it is just esiest to ask chef for the recipe (in this case the artist). >> >> >> >> If you are listening to the conversation could you elaborate on your workflow? >> >> >> >> Marek >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > PS . V?r hemsida ?r nu ?ntligen uppdaterad! > Our website is, finally, updated! > > Atelier Pictoform > Hans Nohlberg & Chia N-L?fqvist > Folketshusgatan 1 > SE - 267 41 Bjuv > Sweden > > +46 (0)42 141818 > Mobile: 0739 744424 > > www.pictoform.nu > > www.artphotocollection.com > www.etsabild.com > www.goldstreetstudios.com.au > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From cryberg at comcast.net Thu May 23 23:35:43 2013 From: cryberg at comcast.net (Charles Ryberg) Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 16:35:43 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon In-Reply-To: <47D0570A-D56F-47F5-909F-49B2FB699309@pictoform.nu> References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com>, , <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com>, , , <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com>, , <47D0570A-D56F-47F5-909F-49B2FB699309@pictoform.nu> Message-ID: I'm dumbfounded. I have seen the print in Astoria and attest to its beauty. Now we learn that she does it backwards--brushing out all of the yellow layer that isn't supposed to be yellow. Repeat with magenta and cyan. I remember as a kid reading my dad's copy of ETCHERS AND ETCHING by Joseph Pennell. I was amazed that such intricate images could be made by anyone who had to think backward in both direction and color. Heck, I was the only kid in grade school who couldn't draw a dog. I still have the book and still wonder at the skills. I know I'll never be tempted to try her method, but wow, am I ever impressed and grateful for her explanation. Charles Portland OR From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Fri May 24 14:41:48 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 14:41:48 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon In-Reply-To: <47D0570A-D56F-47F5-909F-49B2FB699309@pictoform.nu> References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com>, , , , <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com>, , , , , , <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com>, , , , , , <47D0570A-D56F-47F5-909F-49B2FB699309@pictoform.nu> Message-ID: Thanks Chia. Thanks for sharing details of your work. Quite fascinating. I do remember my first coulour gum print being made in the same fashion. From a single B&W negative, but I applied colour locally brushing it on the desired area, vs, you rremove it from unwated areas. I have to dig those prints out, as I kind of moved them out of sight once I started using separation negatives. Prints made from a single negative have a different feel to them. What is your preferred paper for this work. Marek > From: chiahans at pictoform.nu > Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 20:37:46 +0200 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon > > Marek, > > As promised here is my "recipe": > > For the Poppy - and usually for most of my four colour gums - I use one negative. (Sometimes I use separation negatives but for me it's not the same fun/challenge.) > > I start with a "sketch" - a weak black layer (lampblack, powder - "true", not synthetic) > The next layer is yellow (Schmincke, powder) and I cover the whole image area. In the "development" I brush those parts away that shouldn't contain yellow (in so far as it goes.) > The next layer is magenta (Schmincke, powder) - and the same procedure > Next layer is cyan (Schmincke, powder) - and the same procedure - now the fun begins and you can see a colour image. It's all worth it! > Finally, lampblack again, for the contrast etc. > > The Poppy is an analog image (Hasselblad). At that time I went into the darkroom and made a print on a photographic plastic paper and then put this print in contact with the film for the negative. Very simple and smooth workflow. (There are some text in the background of the image saying Kodak! Maybe, I should have chosen a paper without this text but it gave me some structure in the background!) > > > Hope this helps > Chia > > > 20 maj 2013 kl. 20.04 skrev Marek Matusz: > > > > > Chia, > > > > I was really taken by your poppy print. I was trying to deconstruct it like you would a dish in the restaurant. How many negatives, layers, colors? Were the layers lightly pigmented or stongly pigmented and washed back? > > > > > > > > Sometimes it is just esiest to ask chef for the recipe (in this case the artist). > > > > > > > > If you are listening to the conversation could you elaborate on your workflow? > > > > > > > > Marek > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > PS . V?r hemsida ?r nu ?ntligen uppdaterad! > Our website is, finally, updated! > > Atelier Pictoform > Hans Nohlberg & Chia N-L?fqvist > Folketshusgatan 1 > SE - 267 41 Bjuv > Sweden > > +46 (0)42 141818 > Mobile: 0739 744424 > > www.pictoform.nu > > www.artphotocollection.com > www.etsabild.com > www.goldstreetstudios.com.au > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From chiahans at pictoform.nu Fri May 24 16:38:15 2013 From: chiahans at pictoform.nu (Hans & Chia) Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 18:38:15 +0200 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon In-Reply-To: References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com>, , , , <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com>, , , , , , <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com>, , , , , , <47D0570A-D56F-47F5-909F-49B2FB699309@pictoform.nu> Message-ID: <03069DD2-D07E-4982-AD4A-7AEA3C12CF85@pictoform.nu> Hi Marek My preferred paper is BFK Rives 400 g - in fact the only one I use. Chia 24 maj 2013 kl. 16.41 skrev Marek Matusz: > Thanks Chia. > > > > Thanks for sharing details of your work. Quite fascinating. I do remember my first coulour gum print being made in the same fashion. From a single B&W negative, but I applied colour locally brushing it on the desired area, vs, you rremove it from unwated areas. I have to dig those prints out, as I kind of moved them out of sight once I started using separation negatives. Prints made from a single negative have a different feel to them. > > What is your preferred paper for this work. > > > > Marek > > > >> From: chiahans at pictoform.nu >> Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 20:37:46 +0200 >> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >> Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon >> >> Marek, >> >> As promised here is my "recipe": >> >> For the Poppy - and usually for most of my four colour gums - I use one negative. (Sometimes I use separation negatives but for me it's not the same fun/challenge.) >> >> I start with a "sketch" - a weak black layer (lampblack, powder - "true", not synthetic) >> The next layer is yellow (Schmincke, powder) and I cover the whole image area. In the "development" I brush those parts away that shouldn't contain yellow (in so far as it goes.) >> The next layer is magenta (Schmincke, powder) - and the same procedure >> Next layer is cyan (Schmincke, powder) - and the same procedure - now the fun begins and you can see a colour image. It's all worth it! >> Finally, lampblack again, for the contrast etc. >> >> The Poppy is an analog image (Hasselblad). At that time I went into the darkroom and made a print on a photographic plastic paper and then put this print in contact with the film for the negative. Very simple and smooth workflow. (There are some text in the background of the image saying Kodak! Maybe, I should have chosen a paper without this text but it gave me some structure in the background!) >> >> >> Hope this helps >> Chia >> >> >> 20 maj 2013 kl. 20.04 skrev Marek Matusz: >> >>> >>> Chia, >>> >>> I was really taken by your poppy print. I was trying to deconstruct it like you would a dish in the restaurant. How many negatives, layers, colors? Were the layers lightly pigmented or stongly pigmented and washed back? >>> >>> >>> >>> Sometimes it is just esiest to ask chef for the recipe (in this case the artist). >>> >>> >>> >>> If you are listening to the conversation could you elaborate on your workflow? >>> >>> >>> >>> Marek >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >> >> PS . V?r hemsida ?r nu ?ntligen uppdaterad! >> Our website is, finally, updated! >> >> Atelier Pictoform >> Hans Nohlberg & Chia N-L?fqvist >> Folketshusgatan 1 >> SE - 267 41 Bjuv >> Sweden >> >> +46 (0)42 141818 >> Mobile: 0739 744424 >> >> www.pictoform.nu >> >> www.artphotocollection.com >> www.etsabild.com >> www.goldstreetstudios.com.au >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo PS . V?r hemsida ?r nu ?ntligen uppdaterad! Our website is, finally, updated! Atelier Pictoform Hans Nohlberg & Chia N-L?fqvist Folketshusgatan 1 SE - 267 41 Bjuv Sweden +46 (0)42 141818 Mobile: 0739 744424 www.pictoform.nu www.artphotocollection.com www.etsabild.com www.goldstreetstudios.com.au From kakarott76 at hotmail.com Fri May 24 23:53:15 2013 From: kakarott76 at hotmail.com (Kurt Nagy) Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 23:53:15 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon In-Reply-To: <03069DD2-D07E-4982-AD4A-7AEA3C12CF85@pictoform.nu> References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com>, ,,, ,,<51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com>, ,,, ,,, ,,<99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com>, ,,, , , , , , , <47D0570A-D56F-47F5-909F-49B2FB699309@pictoform.nu>, , <03069DD2-D07E-4982-AD4A-7AEA3C12CF85@pictoform.nu> Message-ID: Very cool I'm a little confused on your first reply though. You say you create a print in the darkroom first? You mean a silver gelatin print or a type of ortho-lith film? Then you contact print that to a piece of film? > From: chiahans at pictoform.nu > Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 18:38:15 +0200 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon > > Hi Marek > > My preferred paper is BFK Rives 400 g - in fact the only one I use. > > Chia > > > 24 maj 2013 kl. 16.41 skrev Marek Matusz: > > > Thanks Chia. > > > > > > > > Thanks for sharing details of your work. Quite fascinating. I do remember my first coulour gum print being made in the same fashion. From a single B&W negative, but I applied colour locally brushing it on the desired area, vs, you rremove it from unwated areas. I have to dig those prints out, as I kind of moved them out of sight once I started using separation negatives. Prints made from a single negative have a different feel to them. > > > > What is your preferred paper for this work. > > > > > > > > Marek > > > > > > > >> From: chiahans at pictoform.nu > >> Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 20:37:46 +0200 > >> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > >> Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon > >> > >> Marek, > >> > >> As promised here is my "recipe": > >> > >> For the Poppy - and usually for most of my four colour gums - I use one negative. (Sometimes I use separation negatives but for me it's not the same fun/challenge.) > >> > >> I start with a "sketch" - a weak black layer (lampblack, powder - "true", not synthetic) > >> The next layer is yellow (Schmincke, powder) and I cover the whole image area. In the "development" I brush those parts away that shouldn't contain yellow (in so far as it goes.) > >> The next layer is magenta (Schmincke, powder) - and the same procedure > >> Next layer is cyan (Schmincke, powder) - and the same procedure - now the fun begins and you can see a colour image. It's all worth it! > >> Finally, lampblack again, for the contrast etc. > >> > >> The Poppy is an analog image (Hasselblad). At that time I went into the darkroom and made a print on a photographic plastic paper and then put this print in contact with the film for the negative. Very simple and smooth workflow. (There are some text in the background of the image saying Kodak! Maybe, I should have chosen a paper without this text but it gave me some structure in the background!) > >> > >> > >> Hope this helps > >> Chia > >> > >> > >> 20 maj 2013 kl. 20.04 skrev Marek Matusz: > >> > >>> > >>> Chia, > >>> > >>> I was really taken by your poppy print. I was trying to deconstruct it like you would a dish in the restaurant. How many negatives, layers, colors? Were the layers lightly pigmented or stongly pigmented and washed back? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Sometimes it is just esiest to ask chef for the recipe (in this case the artist). > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> If you are listening to the conversation could you elaborate on your workflow? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Marek > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > >> > >> PS . V?r hemsida ?r nu ?ntligen uppdaterad! > >> Our website is, finally, updated! > >> > >> Atelier Pictoform > >> Hans Nohlberg & Chia N-L?fqvist > >> Folketshusgatan 1 > >> SE - 267 41 Bjuv > >> Sweden > >> > >> +46 (0)42 141818 > >> Mobile: 0739 744424 > >> > >> www.pictoform.nu > >> > >> www.artphotocollection.com > >> www.etsabild.com > >> www.goldstreetstudios.com.au > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > PS . V?r hemsida ?r nu ?ntligen uppdaterad! > Our website is, finally, updated! > > Atelier Pictoform > Hans Nohlberg & Chia N-L?fqvist > Folketshusgatan 1 > SE - 267 41 Bjuv > Sweden > > +46 (0)42 141818 > Mobile: 0739 744424 > > www.pictoform.nu > > www.artphotocollection.com > www.etsabild.com > www.goldstreetstudios.com.au > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From christinazanderson at gmail.com Sat May 25 02:28:33 2013 From: christinazanderson at gmail.com (Christina Anderson) Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 20:28:33 -0600 Subject: [Alt-photo] ammonium caseinate Message-ID: <97A71F40-5646-4046-9E5E-E4C0E19C359C@gmail.com> Dear List, Finally a source for ammonium caseinate, the form of casein that is water soluble. PH is about 7. NO ammonia smell/fumes! Very non-toxic and user-friendly. Photographer's Formulary now has it in stock! They have also made a kit that includes preservative, pigments, and dichromate. See here: http://stores.photoformulary.com/-strse-1008/Ammonium-Caseinate/Detail.bok And http://stores.photoformulary.com/-strse-1009/CASEIN-PRINTING-KIT/Detail.bok All's needed would be paper and PVA sizing. (Note: even though I wrote the directions for the Formulary (which are available for free), I make no money at this; I just wanted someone to carry the stuff because I wasn't interested in buying it by the 50lb sack which would last me 60 lifetimes. My vested interest is that they would keep it available, nothing more). I've been working with the caseinate powder formula over the last almost 3 years. It works great, and I whip it up in my food processor very easily. Ready to use as soon as the foaminess subsides (similar to mixing gum arabic from powder). I always used thymol to preserve but apparently thymol is getting pricey, so the Formulary had me try sodium benzoate and it works great, just as it does with gum arabic. I use 1/4 tsp to preserve 100ml of casein. For those who have not used casein, I use it at 10% dilution and thus 10g of the stuff will make easily 20 tricolor prints. I use about 1 ml to coat 30 sq. inches, or about 2.5ml for an 8x10 of combined casein/pigment/dichromate. VERY economical. One unfortunate thing, but maybe Photo Formulary has a way around this because they are a photo place, but I couldn't ship ammonium caseinate to Europe because it is a milk product and Europe has rules about shipping milk products into the EU, I think related to disease issues. Anyway, soon I will post my new caseins to my website that I have been working on night and day this past month. 50-60 to date, 4-6 layers, still another 20 to go. It's been quite fun but frustrating at times when I do something stupid like put a print to expose in the contact frame and forget to take out a negative I left in there. Arggggh. After 2 layers. You may also enjoy Guido Ceppen's casein prints. I could never find him on the web before for some reason, maybe the language barrier, but when he posted a bit ago I immediately emailed him and he shared his website with me. http://www.guidoceuppens.be/ He does casein in an artsy/blocky/screenprinting way that is quite intriguing! Enjoy the Memorial Weekend! Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com From donsbryant at gmail.com Sat May 25 03:14:09 2013 From: donsbryant at gmail.com (Don) Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 23:14:09 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: ammonium caseinate In-Reply-To: <97A71F40-5646-4046-9E5E-E4C0E19C359C@gmail.com> References: <97A71F40-5646-4046-9E5E-E4C0E19C359C@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Dear List, Finally a source for ammonium caseinate, the form of casein that is water soluble. > Thanks for the notification Chris. A casein kit like this will be perfect for a piker like my self. Don Bryant From chiahans at pictoform.nu Sat May 25 07:40:54 2013 From: chiahans at pictoform.nu (Hans & Chia) Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 09:40:54 +0200 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon In-Reply-To: References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com>, , , , , , <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com>, , , , , , , , , <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com>, , , , , , , , , , <47D0570A-D56F-47F5-909F-49B2FB699309@pictoform.nu>, , <03069DD2-D07E-4982-AD4A-7AEA3C12CF85@pictoform.nu> Message-ID: <4D4DC2C8-CA09-4F2C-ADAC-E99ABCEAF5E4@pictoform.nu> Hi Sorry for my short explanation. Yes, I mean silver gelatin print on RC paper. I found it much easier to control the dodging/burning on a photographic paper than on a film. When the print was ok I made a contact print on a piece of film. Since may years I make digital negatives. Chia 25 maj 2013 kl. 01.53 skrev Kurt Nagy: > Very cool > > I'm a little confused on your first reply though. You say you create a print in the darkroom first? You mean a silver gelatin print or a type of ortho-lith film? Then you contact print that to a piece of film? > >> From: chiahans at pictoform.nu >> Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 18:38:15 +0200 >> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >> Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon >> >> Hi Marek >> >> My preferred paper is BFK Rives 400 g - in fact the only one I use. >> >> Chia >> >> >> 24 maj 2013 kl. 16.41 skrev Marek Matusz: >> >>> Thanks Chia. >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks for sharing details of your work. Quite fascinating. I do remember my first coulour gum print being made in the same fashion. From a single B&W negative, but I applied colour locally brushing it on the desired area, vs, you rremove it from unwated areas. I have to dig those prints out, as I kind of moved them out of sight once I started using separation negatives. Prints made from a single negative have a different feel to them. >>> >>> What is your preferred paper for this work. >>> >>> >>> >>> Marek >>> >>> >>> >>>> From: chiahans at pictoform.nu >>>> Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 20:37:46 +0200 >>>> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >>>> Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon >>>> >>>> Marek, >>>> >>>> As promised here is my "recipe": >>>> >>>> For the Poppy - and usually for most of my four colour gums - I use one negative. (Sometimes I use separation negatives but for me it's not the same fun/challenge.) >>>> >>>> I start with a "sketch" - a weak black layer (lampblack, powder - "true", not synthetic) >>>> The next layer is yellow (Schmincke, powder) and I cover the whole image area. In the "development" I brush those parts away that shouldn't contain yellow (in so far as it goes.) >>>> The next layer is magenta (Schmincke, powder) - and the same procedure >>>> Next layer is cyan (Schmincke, powder) - and the same procedure - now the fun begins and you can see a colour image. It's all worth it! >>>> Finally, lampblack again, for the contrast etc. >>>> >>>> The Poppy is an analog image (Hasselblad). At that time I went into the darkroom and made a print on a photographic plastic paper and then put this print in contact with the film for the negative. Very simple and smooth workflow. (There are some text in the background of the image saying Kodak! Maybe, I should have chosen a paper without this text but it gave me some structure in the background!) >>>> >>>> >>>> Hope this helps >>>> Chia >>>> >>>> >>>> 20 maj 2013 kl. 20.04 skrev Marek Matusz: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Chia, >>>>> >>>>> I was really taken by your poppy print. I was trying to deconstruct it like you would a dish in the restaurant. How many negatives, layers, colors? Were the layers lightly pigmented or stongly pigmented and washed back? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sometimes it is just esiest to ask chef for the recipe (in this case the artist). >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If you are listening to the conversation could you elaborate on your workflow? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Marek >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>>> >>>> PS . V?r hemsida ?r nu ?ntligen uppdaterad! >>>> Our website is, finally, updated! >>>> >>>> Atelier Pictoform >>>> Hans Nohlberg & Chia N-L?fqvist >>>> Folketshusgatan 1 >>>> SE - 267 41 Bjuv >>>> Sweden >>>> >>>> +46 (0)42 141818 >>>> Mobile: 0739 744424 >>>> >>>> www.pictoform.nu >>>> >>>> www.artphotocollection.com >>>> www.etsabild.com >>>> www.goldstreetstudios.com.au >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo >> >> PS . V?r hemsida ?r nu ?ntligen uppdaterad! >> Our website is, finally, updated! >> >> Atelier Pictoform >> Hans Nohlberg & Chia N-L?fqvist >> Folketshusgatan 1 >> SE - 267 41 Bjuv >> Sweden >> >> +46 (0)42 141818 >> Mobile: 0739 744424 >> >> www.pictoform.nu >> >> www.artphotocollection.com >> www.etsabild.com >> www.goldstreetstudios.com.au >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo PS . V?r hemsida ?r nu ?ntligen uppdaterad! Our website is, finally, updated! Atelier Pictoform Hans Nohlberg & Chia N-L?fqvist Folketshusgatan 1 SE - 267 41 Bjuv Sweden +46 (0)42 141818 Mobile: 0739 744424 www.pictoform.nu www.artphotocollection.com www.etsabild.com www.goldstreetstudios.com.au From workshops at polychrome.nl Sat May 25 07:46:31 2013 From: workshops at polychrome.nl (Kees Brandenburg) Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 09:46:31 +0200 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Katharine Thayer Exhibit in Astoria, Oregon In-Reply-To: <4D4DC2C8-CA09-4F2C-ADAC-E99ABCEAF5E4@pictoform.nu> References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com> <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com> <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com> <47D0570A-D56F-47F5-909F-49B2FB699309@pictoform.nu> <03069DD2-D07E-4982-AD4A-7AEA3C12CF85@pictoform.nu> <4D4DC2C8-CA09-4F2C-ADAC-E99ABCEAF5E4@pictoform.nu> Message-ID: <9A0C2F93-1FCA-4EA2-86F0-22419CC3FF3E@polychrome.nl> I used this method for many many years with my workshop participants. I just asked them to take some good black and white RC paper prints and we contacted them on ortho film. Very easy, same time for all copies! Had to change this procedure when people mistakenly took inkjet print in stead of 'real' print. Now all workshop negatives are digital. kees On 25 mei 2013, at 09:40, Hans & Chia wrote: > Hi > > Sorry for my short explanation. > Yes, I mean silver gelatin print on RC paper. I found it much easier to control the dodging/burning on a photographic paper than on a film. When the print was ok I made a contact print on a piece of film. > Since may years I make digital negatives. > > Chia From workshops at polychrome.nl Sat May 25 08:53:34 2013 From: workshops at polychrome.nl (Kees Brandenburg) Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 10:53:34 +0200 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: ammonium caseinate In-Reply-To: <97A71F40-5646-4046-9E5E-E4C0E19C359C@gmail.com> References: <97A71F40-5646-4046-9E5E-E4C0E19C359C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <25757C0F-D07D-42E1-BC95-CBF48FB6DC9A@polychrome.nl> Maybe you misspelled Guido's name. ;) It's Guido Ceuppens. On 25 mei 2013, at 04:28, Christina Anderson wrote: > You may also enjoy Guido Ceppen's casein prints. I could never find him on the web before for some reason, maybe the language barrier, but when he posted a bit ago I immediately emailed him and he shared his website with me. > http://www.guidoceuppens.be/ From christinazanderson at gmail.com Sat May 25 15:50:19 2013 From: christinazanderson at gmail.com (Christina Anderson) Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 09:50:19 -0600 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: ammonium caseinate In-Reply-To: <25757C0F-D07D-42E1-BC95-CBF48FB6DC9A@polychrome.nl> References: <97A71F40-5646-4046-9E5E-E4C0E19C359C@gmail.com> <25757C0F-D07D-42E1-BC95-CBF48FB6DC9A@polychrome.nl> Message-ID: Shoot. My bad. Those pesky "u's." Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On May 25, 2013, at 2:53 AM, Kees Brandenburg wrote: > Maybe you misspelled Guido's name. ;) > It's Guido Ceuppens. > > > On 25 mei 2013, at 04:28, Christina Anderson wrote: > >> You may also enjoy Guido Ceppen's casein prints. I could never find him on the web before for some reason, maybe the language barrier, but when he posted a bit ago I immediately emailed him and he shared his website with me. >> http://www.guidoceuppens.be/ > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From altguido at gmail.com Sat May 25 16:48:45 2013 From: altguido at gmail.com (Guido Ceuppens) Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 18:48:45 +0200 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: ammonium caseinate In-Reply-To: References: <97A71F40-5646-4046-9E5E-E4C0E19C359C@gmail.com> <25757C0F-D07D-42E1-BC95-CBF48FB6DC9A@polychrome.nl> Message-ID: Yes, Kees is right off course, it is Ceuppens, with a pesky ?u?. Has been for many, many years! Guido 2013/5/25 Christina Anderson > Shoot. My bad. Those pesky "u's." > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > On May 25, 2013, at 2:53 AM, Kees Brandenburg wrote: > > > Maybe you misspelled Guido's name. ;) > > It's Guido Ceuppens. > > > > > > On 25 mei 2013, at 04:28, Christina Anderson < > christinazanderson at gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> You may also enjoy Guido Ceppen's casein prints. I could never find him > on the web before for some reason, maybe the language barrier, but when he > posted a bit ago I immediately emailed him and he shared his website with > me. > >> http://www.guidoceuppens.be/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Sat May 25 20:24:57 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 20:24:57 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Four color gum In-Reply-To: <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com> References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com>, , <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com>, , , <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: All I started on a set of gum prints made with Chia's recipe. FOr the first layer I used graphite pigment (watercolor from DS). I tried to make prints delicate at this stage, like a drawing and add texture by spray developing. The prints are drying now. I really like this first monochrome layer a lot (vs blue for my normal workflow). I will scan a print once they dry and can be handled. Marek From dlhbloomfield at gmail.com Sat May 25 21:47:45 2013 From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 17:47:45 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Four color gum In-Reply-To: References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com>, , <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com>, , , <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Marek. I'll be interested in seeing this. I would love to try it myself. I typically use cyan for the first layer as well. I have some powdered pigments, but I need to get some lamp black. ;) But I look forward to seeing your results. Diana On May 25, 2013, at 4:24 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > > > All I started on a set of gum prints made with Chia's recipe. FOr the first layer I used graphite pigment (watercolor from DS). I tried to make prints delicate at this stage, like a drawing and add texture by spray developing. The prints are drying now. I really like this first monochrome layer a lot (vs blue for my normal workflow). I will scan a print once they dry and can be handled. Marek > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Sun May 26 15:16:44 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 15:16:44 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Four color gum In-Reply-To: References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com>, , , , <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com>, , , , , , <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com>, , Message-ID: Diana, I am not using powdered pigments. Just DS watercolors. That's what I have at hand. Anyways the prints are too large to scan so I took pictures. So here is the first graphite layer. Graphite is my standard black for any alt printing https://plus.google.com/photos/105732508998271877151/albums/5882305049320410433 you might have to copy and paste the link. I am debating my pigment choices/strength for the color layers. Marek > From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com > Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 17:47:45 -0400 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Four color gum > > Thanks, Marek. I'll be interested in seeing this. I would love to try it myself. I typically use cyan for the first layer as well. I have some powdered pigments, but I need to get some lamp black. ;) But I look forward to seeing your results. > > Diana > > On May 25, 2013, at 4:24 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > > > > > > > All I started on a set of gum prints made with Chia's recipe. FOr the first layer I used graphite pigment (watercolor from DS). I tried to make prints delicate at this stage, like a drawing and add texture by spray developing. The prints are drying now. I really like this first monochrome layer a lot (vs blue for my normal workflow). I will scan a print once they dry and can be handled. Marek > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From dlhbloomfield at gmail.com Sun May 26 16:07:28 2013 From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 12:07:28 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Four color gum In-Reply-To: References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com>, , , , <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com>, , , , , , <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com>, , Message-ID: <77D9E1DB-6BF3-4B53-8256-37EF6243A4D3@gmail.com> Oh, thanks so much, Marek. I really look forward to see the other layers, but I can see with this one layer how you might end up with that same sort of quality-- and it's not graininess I see-- but more of an overall textural quality that I find really appealing, though not sure how to describe it. I have a charcoal "painting" that was given to me some years ago, and it has that same texture, but also that sort of subtractive element to it, too. So I can see where you're getting that already-- but that's more from the water-brushing/spraying technique, rather than the pigment itself? And I assume you're going to be using the one negative as well? I've ordered some lamp black powered pigment, because I'm not going to deviate from Chia's "recipe." ;) But I can't wait to see our other pigment layers. Really interesting; thanks. Diana On May 26, 2013, at 11:16 AM, Marek Matusz wrote: > Diana, > > I am not using powdered pigments. Just DS watercolors. That's what I have at hand. Anyways the prints are too large to scan so I took pictures. So here is the first graphite layer. Graphite is my standard black for any alt printing > > https://plus.google.com/photos/105732508998271877151/albums/5882305049320410433 > > you might have to copy and paste the link. I am debating my pigment choices/strength for the color layers. > > Marek > From dlhbloomfield at gmail.com Sun May 26 16:09:57 2013 From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 12:09:57 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Four color gum In-Reply-To: References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com>, , , , <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com>, , , , , , <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com>, , Message-ID: <4773BD83-18DA-4542-8D9C-64C1DE6766F5@gmail.com> Oh-- and what paper did you decide to use? On May 26, 2013, at 11:16 AM, Marek Matusz wrote: > Diana, > > I am not using powdered pigments. Just DS watercolors. That's what I have at hand. Anyways the prints are too large to scan so I took pictures. So here is the first graphite layer. Graphite is my standard black for any alt printing > > https://plus.google.com/photos/105732508998271877151/albums/5882305049320410433 > > you might have to copy and paste the link. I am debating my pigment choices/strength for the color layers. > > Marek > >> From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Sun May 26 16:27:09 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 16:27:09 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Four color gum In-Reply-To: <4773BD83-18DA-4542-8D9C-64C1DE6766F5@gmail.com> References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com>, ,,, ,,<51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com>, ,,, ,,, , , <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com>, , , , , , <4773BD83-18DA-4542-8D9C-64C1DE6766F5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Diana, My paper is the same as Chia's, BFK rives 280 (not sure how her weight would translate). My standard gum paper for now. PVA 1:1 size. I think that the paper/spray develop adds to the texture that is very reminiscent of a pencil drawing. One of the prints has a very smooth background and I was anxious to put the sprayer to it, but as soon as I have done that it came out very nice. I am going out of town for the weekend so no more progress until mid next week. The pictures in the link are lighter then originals. When I view these pictures in the windows viewer they are OK, once loaded into Picasa there is a correction applied by Picasa (Google) and they are too light. Drives me insane. Marek > From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com > Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 12:09:57 -0400 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Four color gum > > Oh-- and what paper did you decide to use? > > > On May 26, 2013, at 11:16 AM, Marek Matusz wrote: > > > Diana, > > > > I am not using powdered pigments. Just DS watercolors. That's what I have at hand. Anyways the prints are too large to scan so I took pictures. So here is the first graphite layer. Graphite is my standard black for any alt printing > > > > https://plus.google.com/photos/105732508998271877151/albums/5882305049320410433 > > > > you might have to copy and paste the link. I am debating my pigment choices/strength for the color layers. > > > > Marek > > > >> From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Sun May 26 16:31:58 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 16:31:58 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Four color gum In-Reply-To: <77D9E1DB-6BF3-4B53-8256-37EF6243A4D3@gmail.com> References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com>, ,,, ,,<51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com>, ,,, ,,, , , <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com>, , , , , , <77D9E1DB-6BF3-4B53-8256-37EF6243A4D3@gmail.com> Message-ID: Diana, I actually printed 4 negatives for each picture. Standard RGB separations and a fourth negative (an equivalent to K), black and white photosop conversion, containing all the color information. That would be the negative for one negative printing. I am not sure if I will use the RGB separations or not, but I will be definitely brushing and spraying a lot. Marek > From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com > Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 12:07:28 -0400 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Four color gum > > Oh, thanks so much, Marek. I really look forward to see the other layers, but I can see with this one layer how you might end up with that same sort of quality-- and it's not graininess I see-- but more of an overall textural quality that I find really appealing, though not sure how to describe it. I have a charcoal "painting" that was given to me some years ago, and it has that same texture, but also that sort of subtractive element to it, too. So I can see where you're getting that already-- but that's more from the water-brushing/spraying technique, rather than the pigment itself? And I assume you're going to be using the one negative as well? I've ordered some lamp black powered pigment, because I'm not going to deviate from Chia's "recipe." ;) But I can't wait to see our other pigment layers. Really interesting; thanks. > > Diana > > > On May 26, 2013, at 11:16 AM, Marek Matusz wrote: > > > Diana, > > > > I am not using powdered pigments. Just DS watercolors. That's what I have at hand. Anyways the prints are too large to scan so I took pictures. So here is the first graphite layer. Graphite is my standard black for any alt printing > > > > https://plus.google.com/photos/105732508998271877151/albums/5882305049320410433 > > > > you might have to copy and paste the link. I am debating my pigment choices/strength for the color layers. > > > > Marek > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From dlhbloomfield at gmail.com Sun May 26 16:42:02 2013 From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 12:42:02 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Four color gum In-Reply-To: References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com>, , , , , , <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com>, , , , , , , , , <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com>, , , , , , <4773BD83-18DA-4542-8D9C-64C1DE6766F5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <05C19782-621D-4343-BFDE-20695105A0B2@gmail.com> Okay, great. Thanks. Yes-- I love that look; it does look like a pencil drawing. I really like BFK Rives and used to use it all the time, with the PVA, but then switched to Fabriano soft-press because that seems to require no additional sizing. But-- like I said-- I'm going to do everything as stated in the "recipe." ;) So I'll go back to the Rives for this. I can't wait to try it. Yes-- I think that that's a real downside of alt processes-- no matter what you do, it's never easy to get those images to look onscreen as they do in real life. But I can easily see that you're already getting that same quality. And I'm hoping the whole spray development technique isn't something that requires years of practice (like making latte designs). ;) Okay, I just got your other post. That's helpful. I look forward to seeing the rest. When you do get to them, could you post each layer (rather than the final print) as you do them? I'd love to see that progression. Thanks, Marek; enjoy your weekend. Diana On May 26, 2013, at 12:27 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > > Diana, > > My paper is the same as Chia's, BFK rives 280 (not sure how her weight would translate). My standard gum paper for now. PVA 1:1 size. I think that the paper/spray develop adds to the texture that is very reminiscent of a pencil drawing. One of the prints has a very smooth background and I was anxious to put the sprayer to it, but as soon as I have done that it came out very nice. I am going out of town for the weekend so no more progress until mid next week. > The pictures in the link are lighter then originals. When I view these pictures in the windows viewer they are OK, once loaded into Picasa there is a correction applied by Picasa (Google) and they are too light. Drives me insane. > > > Marek From chiahans at pictoform.nu Sun May 26 20:21:30 2013 From: chiahans at pictoform.nu (Hans & Chia) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 22:21:30 +0200 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Four color gum In-Reply-To: References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com>, , , , , , <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com>, , , , , , , , , <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com>, , , , , , <4773BD83-18DA-4542-8D9C-64C1DE6766F5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <31D71573-52A7-4CAB-83FD-69801BA12D34@pictoform.nu> Hi Marek and Diana My paper is actually 400g (I like the 280g also). It's not produced anymore, what I know (because of the Canson Rives 310g inkjet paper????) Three years ago I was going to order my paper as usual and then got the answer it's out! I was frustrated and googled and googled. Last spring I found a firm in the Netherlands who still had it in stock. Now I hope my stock lasts my whole gum printing life:-)) Chia 26 maj 2013 kl. 18.27 skrev Marek Matusz: > > Diana, > > My paper is the same as Chia's, BFK rives 280 (not sure how her weight would translate). My standard gum paper for now. PVA 1:1 size. I think that the paper/spray develop adds to the texture that is very reminiscent of a pencil drawing. One of the prints has a very smooth background and I was anxious to put the sprayer to it, but as soon as I have done that it came out very nice. I am going out of town for the weekend so no more progress until mid next week. > The pictures in the link are lighter then originals. When I view these pictures in the windows viewer they are OK, once loaded into Picasa there is a correction applied by Picasa (Google) and they are too light. Drives me insane. > > > Marek > >> From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com >> Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 12:09:57 -0400 >> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >> Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Four color gum >> >> Oh-- and what paper did you decide to use? >> >> >> On May 26, 2013, at 11:16 AM, Marek Matusz wrote: >> >>> Diana, >>> >>> I am not using powdered pigments. Just DS watercolors. That's what I have at hand. Anyways the prints are too large to scan so I took pictures. So here is the first graphite layer. Graphite is my standard black for any alt printing >>> >>> https://plus.google.com/photos/105732508998271877151/albums/5882305049320410433 >>> >>> you might have to copy and paste the link. I am debating my pigment choices/strength for the color layers. >>> >>> Marek >>> >>>> From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo PS . V?r hemsida ?r nu ?ntligen uppdaterad! Our website is, finally, updated! Atelier Pictoform Hans Nohlberg & Chia N-L?fqvist Folketshusgatan 1 SE - 267 41 Bjuv Sweden +46 (0)42 141818 Mobile: 0739 744424 www.pictoform.nu www.artphotocollection.com www.etsabild.com www.goldstreetstudios.com.au From dlhbloomfield at gmail.com Mon May 27 00:21:04 2013 From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 20:21:04 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Four color gum In-Reply-To: <31D71573-52A7-4CAB-83FD-69801BA12D34@pictoform.nu> References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com>, , , , , , <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com>, , , , , , , , , <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com>, , , , , , <4773BD83-18DA-4542-8D9C-64C1DE6766F5@gmail.com> <31D71573-52A7-4CAB-83FD-69801BA12D34@pictoform.nu> Message-ID: <07591C54-B260-4B10-B4B1-F060E1F00EA8@gmail.com> Thanks, Chia. I did find at least a couple of places online that sell the 400 g in white-- at various prices-- the least expensive per sheet still gets you on the shipping (within the U.S.). So it looks like they're still making it at that weight, in white, but would probably be prohibitively expensive for you to have any shipped. Sounds like you have a nice stockpile anyway. ;) Diana On May 26, 2013, at 4:21 PM, Hans & Chia wrote: > Hi Marek and Diana > > My paper is actually 400g (I like the 280g also). It's not produced anymore, what I know (because of the Canson Rives 310g inkjet paper????) > Three years ago I was going to order my paper as usual and then got the answer it's out! I was frustrated and googled and googled. Last spring I found a firm in the Netherlands who still had it in stock. Now I hope my stock lasts my whole gum printing life:-)) > > Chia > > From gjh at shaw.ca Mon May 27 18:48:37 2013 From: gjh at shaw.ca (Gordon Holtslander) Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 12:48:37 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [Alt-photo] pinhole alt-photo workshop June 8,9 Saskatoon In-Reply-To: <1122644606.200960527.1369680361588.JavaMail.root@cds006.dcs.int.inet> Message-ID: <2047270444.200963507.1369680517271.JavaMail.root@cds006.dcs.int.inet> Just in case anyone is in the Saskatoon area in the next two week ... I am teaching my annual very large format pinhole camera, alternative process printing workshop. One day of making and shooting images with large format pinhole cameras. Second day printing Van Dyke and cyanotype See page 12 of http://ccde.usask.ca/sites/all/modules/pubdlcnt/pubdlcnt.php?nid=36&file=http://ccde.usask.ca/sites/ccde.usask.ca/files/CCDE/PDCE/USCAD/PDF/USCAD-Calendar.pdf Gordon J. Holtslander gjh at shaw.ca Learn about HSP http://sp-foundation.org From bobkiss at caribsurf.com Tue May 28 15:43:19 2013 From: bobkiss at caribsurf.com (BOB KISS) Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 11:43:19 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY OT Message-ID: DEAR LIST, This question is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off topic so please reply off list or delete it. I hope that, as many of you are either university teachers or students, you might have an idea bout the following. I teach a photo course to the fine arts students at the local (Barbados) community college and the department head for the last 3 years has been Adam Werth, a fellow graduate of RIT and US citizen, who is MUCH younger than I, about mid 30s. He has an MFA in Printmaking (the ink on paper kind) including serigraphy, intaglio that kind of printmaking. Immigration has refused to renew his work permit so he has returned to the US and is looking for a teaching position. I know the economy has adversely affected everything, including universities but, if any of you hear of a print making teaching position opening up, please let me know so I can forward the info to him. Thanks for allowing me to post this OT question. CHEERS! BOB Please check my website: http://www.bobkiss.com/ "Live as if you are going to die tomorrow. Learn as if you are going to live forever". Mahatma Gandhi "Earth" without "art" is just "Eh"! (Anonymous graffiti posted on Facebook) ?Madonne e fiori, trionfo eterno di giovent?!? from Mattinata Fiorentina by Antonella Ruggiero __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8385 (20130528) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com From christinazanderson at gmail.com Tue May 28 16:53:53 2013 From: christinazanderson at gmail.com (Christina Anderson) Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 10:53:53 -0600 Subject: [Alt-photo] casein prints Message-ID: <8FA3B696-313A-4726-BC8A-AE4E09D8777B@gmail.com> Dear All, Nice to have a long weekend! And summer still ahead as well. If interested, here is a link to my new casein work, 36 prints so far: http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Portfolio.cfm?nK=7796 It's amazing how a deadline, which usually I hate, will remove inertia and make one much more time efficient. But with casein's 1 minute exposures and 15 minute developments, it's a bit easier to accomplish than gum's 6 minute exposures/1 hr developments in my dimroom anyway. Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com From bobkiss at caribsurf.com Tue May 28 17:37:51 2013 From: bobkiss at caribsurf.com (BOB KISS) Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 13:37:51 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] EVANGELISM Message-ID: DEAR LIST, Don?t worry! This isn?t about religion (or sex or politics, sadly!!!). It is about the fact that the US Embassy in Barbados sponsored two day-long demos that I taught on Cyano and Albumen. I pushed Christopher James? book at both sessions stating the truth: His book makes even the most difficult process accessible to anyone who can follow a recipe to bake a cake without (and this is the most important part) I say again, without, sacrificing rigorous treatment of the chemistry for those who know, or want to know, more! The writing is entertaining which can keep even the most uninitiated darkroom person?s attention focused. The great thing about these workshops was that, out of 10 students each, only 3 had ever actually processed film or made any print in a darkroom!!! They were all young ?digiphotographers?. So I had them e-mail me image files and I made digital negs from those files using Dan Burkholder?s templates and Inkpress film. The results were stunning and the students left grinning from ear to ear carrying their first hand made prints cyano and albumen at that!!! I think history is repeating itself: The ?Arts and Crafts? movement in the late 19th & early 20th centuries in response to industrialization and the ?Back to the Earth? movement in response to all those charming things that happened in the late 50s and 1963 to 1972. Now it is a reaction to everything being digital; shoot, Frotoshop, stick in the ICC paper file and press ?print?. Many young people want to actually MAKE something with their hands! So I am happy to have spread ?the word? (Alt) and am very encouraged by the reaction. Oh, by the way, did I tell you that, due to space limitations in the darkroom we used, the Embassy had to turn away around 15 people per workshop!!! Yup, thinking of repeating them and adding more! CHEERS! BOB Please check my website: http://www.bobkiss.com/ "Live as if you are going to die tomorrow. Learn as if you are going to live forever". Mahatma Gandhi "Earth" without "art" is just "Eh"! (Anonymous graffiti posted on Facebook) ?Madonne e fiori, trionfo eterno di giovent?!? from Mattinata Fiorentina by Antonella Ruggiero __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8385 (20130528) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8385 (20130528) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com From emanphoto at gmail.com Tue May 28 18:10:42 2013 From: emanphoto at gmail.com (Eric Nelson) Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 01:10:42 +0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: EVANGELISM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36E37831-0E8F-41B7-AE51-5123DDEA8391@gmail.com> Like On May 29, 2013, at 12:37 AM, "BOB KISS" wrote: > DEAR LIST, > > Don?t worry! This isn?t about religion (or sex or politics, > sadly!!!). It is about the fact that the US Embassy in Barbados sponsored > two day-long demos that I taught on Cyano and Albumen. I pushed Christopher > James? book at both sessions stating the truth: His book makes even the > most difficult process accessible to anyone who can follow a recipe to bake > a cake without (and this is the most important part) I say again, without, > sacrificing rigorous treatment of the chemistry for those who know, or want > to know, more! The writing is entertaining which can keep even the most > uninitiated darkroom person?s attention focused. > > The great thing about these workshops was that, out of 10 > students each, only 3 had ever actually processed film or made any print in > a darkroom!!! They were all young ?digiphotographers?. So I had them > e-mail me image files and I made digital negs from those files using Dan > Burkholder?s templates and Inkpress film. The results were stunning and the > students left grinning from ear to ear carrying their first hand made > prints?cyano and albumen at that!!! > > I think history is repeating itself: The ?Arts and Crafts? > movement in the late 19th & early 20th centuries in response to > industrialization and the ?Back to the Earth? movement in response to all > those charming things that happened in the late 50s and 1963 to 1972. Now > it is a reaction to everything being digital; shoot, Frotoshop, stick in the > ICC paper file and press ?print?. Many young people want to actually MAKE > something with their hands! > > So I am happy to have spread ?the word? (Alt) and am very > encouraged by the reaction. Oh, by the way, did I tell you that, due to > space limitations in the darkroom we used, the Embassy had to turn away > around 15 people per workshop!!! Yup, thinking of repeating them and adding > more! > > CHEERS! > > BOB > > > > Please check my website: http://www.bobkiss.com/ > > > > > "Live as if you are going to die tomorrow. Learn as if you are going to > live forever". Mahatma Gandhi > > > > "Earth" without "art" is just "Eh"! (Anonymous graffiti posted on Facebook) > > > > ?Madonne e fiori, trionfo eterno di giovent?!? from Mattinata Fiorentina by > Antonella Ruggiero > > > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature > database 8385 (20130528) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature > database 8385 (20130528) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Tue May 28 20:06:37 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 23:06:37 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi all, I finally managed ? ? ?to make a *real* 2+1 diluted Argyrotype print on Fabriano Artistico Extra White paper (which was de-alkalized with sulfamic acid), see the result below: http://www.flickr.com/photos/loris-medici/8870289247/ (Same photo for sake of comparison...) Once tamed with sulfamic acid, this paper is a real delight combined with the absolute lack of reluctance shown by 2+1 diluted Argyrotype. BTW, the image is not cold / neutral or even split toned because I use diluted toner; 40ml fresh toner + 360ml used toner, image size 8x10"... Regards, Loris. 2013/5/20 Loris Medici > Hi all, > > This is just for the records; I managed to get smooth Argyrotype test > prints on FAEW/SP (de-alkalized with sulfamic acid), which have good dmax > and won't show any bronzing or unevenness to the naked eye. > > See my working parameters below: > (These may help as a starting point for some of you...) > - 2+1 diluted sensitizer > - 0.25ml coating solution per 10 sq. in. (brush coating) > - 2 drops 10% Tween 20 per ml of coating solution > - Drying time: 60 minutes @ 23C / 50% RH > - Gold-thiourea toning > > See the result here: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/loris-medici/8757864351/ > > That's all from my part, I'll continue to the calibration and do my first > real print on this paper in a couple of days. Done with testing / tech > talk, lots of printing from now on... > > Regards, > Loris. > From mail at loris.medici.name Tue May 28 20:10:47 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 23:10:47 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein prints In-Reply-To: <8FA3B696-313A-4726-BC8A-AE4E09D8777B@gmail.com> References: <8FA3B696-313A-4726-BC8A-AE4E09D8777B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Christina, Very nice (and interesting) work! Once I'm filled with Argyrotype I'll return to dichromated processes, with casein. I like idea / fact that it's a very quick working process. BTW, have you tried to print it on Yupo? I plan to try a trick used by Ultrastable printers; priming the synthetic paper with albumen... A question: Is there any special reason for smallish (most of them - if not all - are 8x8") image sizes? Best regards, Loris. 2013/5/28 Christina Anderson > Dear All, > Nice to have a long weekend! And summer still ahead as well. > If interested, here is a link to my new casein work, 36 prints so far: > http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Portfolio.cfm?nK=7796 > It's amazing how a deadline, which usually I hate, will remove inertia and > make one much more time efficient. > But with casein's 1 minute exposures and 15 minute developments, it's a > bit easier to accomplish than gum's 6 minute exposures/1 hr developments in > my dimroom anyway. > Chris > > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > From mjkoskin at gmail.com Tue May 28 21:03:34 2013 From: mjkoskin at gmail.com (Matti Koskinen) Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 00:03:34 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein prints In-Reply-To: <8FA3B696-313A-4726-BC8A-AE4E09D8777B@gmail.com> References: <8FA3B696-313A-4726-BC8A-AE4E09D8777B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <8E3951EF-42FF-42A6-9588-EAB7DAD756E8@gmail.com> Chris, lovely prints, I'll buy your book sometime in the future, to learn the casein printmaking. I've tried several times casein prints, but 99% fails, even if use the same process,and amounts: cottage cheese+ammonia, potassium dichromate, gouache or acrylic paint, PVAc coated paper. I use very little amount of paint, but flaking is really a bad problem. I develop like tempera prints, where my success percentage is much higher, first soaking the print in lukewarm water for 7mins, then using a dash of dishwasher and foam roller. In some old post, somebody used this method, but my attempts are not very good. What's your secret? thnx -matti On May 28, 2013, at 7:53 PM, Christina Anderson wrote: > Dear All, > Nice to have a long weekend! And summer still ahead as well. > If interested, here is a link to my new casein work, 36 prints so far: > http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Portfolio.cfm?nK=7796 > It's amazing how a deadline, which usually I hate, will remove inertia and make one much more time efficient. > But with casein's 1 minute exposures and 15 minute developments, it's a bit easier to accomplish than gum's 6 minute exposures/1 hr developments in my dimroom anyway. > Chris > > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From jean.daubas at wanadoo.fr Tue May 28 23:15:52 2013 From: jean.daubas at wanadoo.fr (Jean Daubas) Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 01:15:52 +0200 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Loris! Congratulations it?s really a beautifiul colour you get now! Could you give some precisions about your de-alkalizing procedure with sulfamic acid ( dilutions, duration, etc.) Alternative cheers from France, Jean From: Loris Medici Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 10:06 PM To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) From dlhbloomfield at gmail.com Tue May 28 23:33:09 2013 From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 19:33:09 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein prints In-Reply-To: <8FA3B696-313A-4726-BC8A-AE4E09D8777B@gmail.com> References: <8FA3B696-313A-4726-BC8A-AE4E09D8777B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <821E3F20-BC58-48E4-898D-50EA3650A378@gmail.com> Hey Chris, I love these. They're such great images, all-- and tell such stories, individually, but collectively as well. My very very favorites are Up the Ladder; Joy Ride; Stars and Bars; and Great Catch-- but I really like them, and the printing. One minute exposures-- wow. I love the colors on these, which seem to mesh so well with the types of images they are. These also seem to be in amazingly good shape. Did you have to do a lot of clean-up on the originals, before printing, or where they all from slides kept in pristine shape over the years? Diana On May 28, 2013, at 12:53 PM, Christina Anderson wrote: > Dear All, > Nice to have a long weekend! And summer still ahead as well. > If interested, here is a link to my new casein work, 36 prints so far: > http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Portfolio.cfm?nK=7796 > It's amazing how a deadline, which usually I hate, will remove inertia and make one much more time efficient. > But with casein's 1 minute exposures and 15 minute developments, it's a bit easier to accomplish than gum's 6 minute exposures/1 hr developments in my dimroom anyway. > Chris > > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From christinazanderson at gmail.com Wed May 29 01:18:08 2013 From: christinazanderson at gmail.com (Christina Anderson) Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 18:18:08 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein prints In-Reply-To: References: <8FA3B696-313A-4726-BC8A-AE4E09D8777B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Loris, Diana, Matti, and Graham all in one post, so long post, beware! Loris, I have printed on Yupo and it was fine with casein, very tenacious, but these are all on Artistico. All of this series are 8x8. I've printed this series large in the past, 12x16 in 20x24 frames, the ones from the 35mm slides. These images are from 2 1/4 negatives. I have been in the mood to be quieter and smaller with my work and framing lately, for aesthetic and personal reasons but also for space and cost reasons. I have also switched from my two usual frames, a black wood Tribeca or a metal Old World Pewter. These are all 8x8 framed in 13x13 mats and natural wood (maple) frames that have a very quiet presence. I am also framing them without the brush strokes showing, so all in all they are more contemporary in feel. They can be gridded, for instance, very easily. The benefit to small is I was able to fit 10 of these framed images in a small enough box to carry! So shipping to shows will be a huge savings. But that wasn't my reasoning for going this route, it was a desire to be more visually intimate with my work. Oddly enough, they seem big in person, at 8x8. I am just loving the very simple, clean, maple frames. They cost me more inch by inch but they are worth it! The frame has a 1/2" front and is about 3/4 or 1" deep. I think. I am not near them right now. Diana, the slides are in tough shape, lots of mold. The negatives have survived better for some reason, I don't know why. My parents left them all in a big jumbled box in an unheated cabin through minus 30F to 95F for decades. Why take so many pictures and not care about their outcome, I wonder? Matti and Graham, when I first started casein it was terrible, because I came at it thinking it was just like gum. When I started over, calibrated my negatives to casein, figured out correct times of exposure and hot water development, it all worked. I could not believe that exposures could be so brief when I read Guido Ceuppens' posts from years ago, but they are. My layers are very thin. I use less than 1/2 tsp coating solution for an 8x8. Then I brush and brush until dry. If I leave it without brushing it hardens into very visible brush strokes. My negatives are very dull and dark. My exposures are 1 minute. I could even get by with 30 seconds! My development water is quite warm. I spray liberally, especially the first layer, otherwise I find I have misjudged what is developed and get too low contrast a picture. I spray right after the dichromate has all leached out. But with casein, I can spray at the end of development and all throughout because it is not tender like gum. It is very hardy and stubborn, even with such brief exposures. I almost feel it is an on/off proposition and Mark Nelson suggested trying bitmap negs for that reason. However, I use regular continuous tone negs. Printed 126 so far! (RGBs). Heck Peter Blackburn uses paper negs and no curves and gets glorious prints! I do not experience flaking but I don't roller it anymore. When I first started I got lots of flaking but I was scrubbing the print with a sponge to remove the stuff! Now I use spray but mainly automatic development, with some brush-off work with teeny brushes when I want to take color off an area or brighten something up. I have as of late been doing a new way of layering: first the blue, then magenta to get a purple look and make sure the contrast is correct. Then the color balance comes with the yellow layer. All of the prints are at least 4 layers of casein, up to 6. I usually do the tricolor first, and then come back and color correct with either one or two layers. Often, for instance, I'll need another magenta and then a final blue to tone down the magenta. Matti, my secret is this: do it over and over to exclusion until you figure it out. The more you do, the more you learn how it works. Slaving away is the real secret :) I would say in the last month I spent close to 300 hr getting this project half-done.That's my only secret because as you must know by now I blab all. AND, if you go here, no need to buy the book: http://stores.photoformulary.com/images/store_version1/07-0106%20Casein%20Printing.pdf Ok, I think that answers all the comments at length! Chris Christina Z. Anderson christinaZanderson.com On May 28, 2013, at 1:10 PM, Loris Medici wrote: > Dear Christina, > > Very nice (and interesting) work! Once I'm filled with Argyrotype I'll > return to dichromated processes, with casein. I like idea / fact that it's > a very quick working process. BTW, have you tried to print it on Yupo? I > plan to try a trick used by Ultrastable printers; priming the synthetic > paper with albumen... > > A question: Is there any special reason for smallish (most of them - if not > all - are 8x8") image sizes? > > Best regards, > Loris. From jorj at jorj.org Wed May 29 01:35:53 2013 From: jorj at jorj.org (Jorj Bauer) Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 21:35:53 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein prints In-Reply-To: References: <8FA3B696-313A-4726-BC8A-AE4E09D8777B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1F14BFC2-F608-4E0A-A4BE-993D4755ED79@jorj.org> > ... Then I brush and brush until dry. If I leave it without brushing it hardens into very visible brush strokes. I think that's probably the key. I print casein on glass. The glass doesn't need any special prep for casein (unlike for gum). As long as you brush the casein down until it's nearly dry (with multiple foam brushes), it just works. And: > Matti, my secret is this: do it over and over to exclusion until you figure it out. The more you do, the more you learn how it works. Slaving away is the real secret :) Yes. :) Some of my casein prints: https://www.flickr.com/photos/jorj/tags/casein/ -- Jorj From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Wed May 29 01:41:36 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 01:41:36 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , , , , Message-ID: Loris, You dilution of 2:1 is 2 parts chemistry 1 part water? I would like to try that on FA for more DMAX. It is actually about 1 step less then Rising Stonehenge (all treated with sulfamic acid). Marek > From: jean.daubas at wanadoo.fr > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 01:15:52 +0200 > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) > > Hi Loris! > Congratulations > it?s really a beautifiul colour you get now! > Could you give some precisions about your de-alkalizing procedure with sulfamic acid ( dilutions, duration, etc.) > > Alternative cheers from France, > Jean > > From: Loris Medici > Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 10:06 PM > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From mjkoskin at gmail.com Wed May 29 01:53:00 2013 From: mjkoskin at gmail.com (Matti Koskinen) Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 04:53:00 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein prints In-Reply-To: <1F14BFC2-F608-4E0A-A4BE-993D4755ED79@jorj.org> References: <8FA3B696-313A-4726-BC8A-AE4E09D8777B@gmail.com> <1F14BFC2-F608-4E0A-A4BE-993D4755ED79@jorj.org> Message-ID: <258FA01C-CE7C-4480-8783-CF15C023639D@gmail.com> Dear Chris and Jorj Glass is new to me. I was thinking of getting Yupo, but certainly will try casein on glass. I have a bunch of very thick glasses, no fear that they get broken. What about sheets of plastic? Will they serve equally as a smooth surface? Much easier to cut than glass. Also brushing until dry is new, I've used a foam roller and get quite smooth coating (trick from Alex Charter's tempera guide). I think the next night I have lots of work. This night (it's 4.50 am) I've been watching the videos from Coursera's Introduction to Art. Never taken any art classes, photography yes. thanks -matti On May 29, 2013, at 4:35 AM, Jorj Bauer wrote: >> ... Then I brush and brush until dry. If I leave it without brushing it hardens into very visible brush strokes. > > I think that's probably the key. > > I print casein on glass. The glass doesn't need any special prep for casein (unlike for gum). As long as you brush the casein down until it's nearly dry (with multiple foam brushes), it just works. And: > >> Matti, my secret is this: do it over and over to exclusion until you figure it out. The more you do, the more you learn how it works. Slaving away is the real secret :) > > Yes. :) > > Some of my casein prints: > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/jorj/tags/casein/ > > -- Jorj > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Wed May 29 01:54:08 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 01:54:08 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein prints In-Reply-To: <1F14BFC2-F608-4E0A-A4BE-993D4755ED79@jorj.org> References: <8FA3B696-313A-4726-BC8A-AE4E09D8777B@gmail.com>, , , <1F14BFC2-F608-4E0A-A4BE-993D4755ED79@jorj.org> Message-ID: Chris, DO you use just brush? I found that using foam roller to smooth the layer works like a charm for both gum and casein. If your layer is too thick after intial rolling you can roll the brush over some dry paper towel to take excess of the solution to get them real thin. . Just like Chris I also think that the secret is to get them thin. Flaking is the result of thick coating. The same with gum. If you get a thick coat gum it will flake, no question about it. It helps to be exact in the beginning. Make a solution of same strength, use same amount of dichromate and pour the same amount of solution for the paper size Chris. I am so surprised by your exposure of gum. 6 minutes? I do not expose that long even with palladium like negatives and bleach development. Marek > From: jorj at jorj.org > Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 21:35:53 -0400 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein prints > > > ... Then I brush and brush until dry. If I leave it without brushing it hardens into very visible brush strokes. > > I think that's probably the key. > > I print casein on glass. The glass doesn't need any special prep for casein (unlike for gum). As long as you brush the casein down until it's nearly dry (with multiple foam brushes), it just works. And: > > > Matti, my secret is this: do it over and over to exclusion until you figure it out. The more you do, the more you learn how it works. Slaving away is the real secret :) > > Yes. :) > > Some of my casein prints: > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/jorj/tags/casein/ > > -- Jorj > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From jorj at jorj.org Wed May 29 02:05:54 2013 From: jorj at jorj.org (Jorj Bauer) Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 22:05:54 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein prints In-Reply-To: <258FA01C-CE7C-4480-8783-CF15C023639D@gmail.com> References: <8FA3B696-313A-4726-BC8A-AE4E09D8777B@gmail.com> <1F14BFC2-F608-4E0A-A4BE-993D4755ED79@jorj.org> <258FA01C-CE7C-4480-8783-CF15C023639D@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Glass is new to me. I was thinking of getting Yupo, but certainly will try casein on glass. I have a bunch of very thick glasses, no fear that they get broken. What about sheets of plastic? Will they serve equally as a smooth surface? Much easier to cut than glass. Also brushing until dry is new, I've used a foam roller and get quite smooth coating (trick from Alex Charter's tempera guide). I've worked with carbon on Yupo, but not casein on Yupo (yet). I can say that plexiglass is *not* a good choice for casein - the one day that I tried working with plexi, the casein slid off during development no matter what I did to prep the surface. -- Jorj From christinazanderson at gmail.com Wed May 29 02:46:59 2013 From: christinazanderson at gmail.com (Christina Anderson) Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 19:46:59 -0700 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein prints In-Reply-To: References: <8FA3B696-313A-4726-BC8A-AE4E09D8777B@gmail.com>, , , <1F14BFC2-F608-4E0A-A4BE-993D4755ED79@jorj.org> Message-ID: <2CDB599F-2035-4525-8F6C-EEA8F6D426BD@gmail.com> Marek, Yes, just brushes, hake brushes 2" and 3". I use 10-15% am di and my gum exposures are that long. 4-6 minutes. But I could even go longer with yellow if I wanted to. Like 4 mn thalo,5 mn magenta, 6-9 yellow. This gives me an hour development time. However, I have thought of doing what Sarah Van Keuren does, a short exposure and 10 mn development! Just haven't gotten around to it. I'm using UVBL bulbs, are you? I tried the roller and it kept leaving lines in the coating so didn't keep using it. I've actually tried it a number of times, going over and over and smoothing it out lighter and lighter but found I was better with a brush most of the time. Maybe will revisit...again. Jorj, fun caseins! Chris On May 28, 2013, at 6:54 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > Chris, > > DO you use just brush? I found that using foam roller to smooth the layer works like a charm for both gum and casein. If your layer is too thick after intial rolling you can roll the brush over some dry paper towel to take excess of the solution to get them real thin. . Just like Chris I also think that the secret is to get them thin. Flaking is the result of thick coating. The same with gum. If you get a thick coat gum it will flake, no question about it. It helps to be exact in the beginning. Make a solution of same strength, use same amount of dichromate and pour the same amount of solution for the paper size > > Chris. I am so surprised by your exposure of gum. 6 minutes? I do not expose that long even with palladium like negatives and bleach development. > > Marek From dlhbloomfield at gmail.com Wed May 29 03:23:45 2013 From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 23:23:45 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein prints In-Reply-To: References: <8FA3B696-313A-4726-BC8A-AE4E09D8777B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <71ABD54F-5818-49A2-B23C-AB2A31175D7E@gmail.com> Hey Chris, I hear you on the more intimate size images. That a small print (even as small as 3x3) can have a major impact when framed and hanging on a wall always surprises me, but they sure seem to have that effect. I think they just pull people in that much closer. Of course, we see so much that's so big now (mural size) that even 8x10's seem quite small in comparison. I love square images, in particular, and 8x8 I imagine is a very nice size for these. That's so interesting, too, about the negatives (and not the slides) having survived so well. My father was a fantastic photographer, and I have some beautiful b&w images he made-- many hand-tinted-- a lot of my mother when she was young. They're just beautiful, and beautifully printed. The photographs themselves are in perfect shape-- they've definitely held up-- but I have no idea what happened to the negatives-- that goes for all the negatives to all the photos ever taken in my family. I'm guessing back then people took the photographs, had them processed-- and maybe printed a few-- but that was that. No reason to keep or care about the negatives (?). But I love looking at old photographs like that, because they tell you so much. These are really so interesting; they almost look like still images from an old movie. And the way you chose to print these seems to fit them perfectly. Diana On May 28, 2013, at 9:18 PM, Christina Anderson wrote: > Hi Loris, Diana, Matti, and Graham all in one post, so long post, beware! > > Loris, I have printed on Yupo and it was fine with casein, very tenacious, but these are all on Artistico. > > All of this series are 8x8. I've printed this series large in the past, 12x16 in 20x24 frames, the ones from the 35mm slides. These images are from 2 1/4 negatives. I have been in the mood to be quieter and smaller with my work and framing lately, for aesthetic and personal reasons but also for space and cost reasons. I have also switched from my two usual frames, a black wood Tribeca or a metal Old World Pewter. These are all 8x8 framed in 13x13 mats and natural wood (maple) frames that have a very quiet presence. I am also framing them without the brush strokes showing, so all in all they are more contemporary in feel. They can be gridded, for instance, very easily. The benefit to small is I was able to fit 10 of these framed images in a small enough box to carry! So shipping to shows will be a huge savings. But that wasn't my reasoning for going this route, it was a desire to be more visually intimate with my work. Oddly enough, they seem big in person, at 8x8. > > I am just loving the very simple, clean, maple frames. They cost me more inch by inch but they are worth it! The frame has a 1/2" front and is about 3/4 or 1" deep. I think. I am not near them right now. > > Diana, the slides are in tough shape, lots of mold. The negatives have survived better for some reason, I don't know why. My parents left them all in a big jumbled box in an unheated cabin through minus 30F to 95F for decades. Why take so many pictures and not care about their outcome, I wonder? > > Matti and Graham, when I first started casein it was terrible, because I came at it thinking it was just like gum. When I started over, calibrated my negatives to casein, figured out correct times of exposure and hot water development, it all worked. I could not believe that exposures could be so brief when I read Guido Ceuppens' posts from years ago, but they are. > > My layers are very thin. I use less than 1/2 tsp coating solution for an 8x8. Then I brush and brush until dry. If I leave it without brushing it hardens into very visible brush strokes. My negatives are very dull and dark. My exposures are 1 minute. I could even get by with 30 seconds! My development water is quite warm. I spray liberally, especially the first layer, otherwise I find I have misjudged what is developed and get too low contrast a picture. I spray right after the dichromate has all leached out. But with casein, I can spray at the end of development and all throughout because it is not tender like gum. It is very hardy and stubborn, even with such brief exposures. I almost feel it is an on/off proposition and Mark Nelson suggested trying bitmap negs for that reason. However, I use regular continuous tone negs. Printed 126 so far! (RGBs). Heck Peter Blackburn uses paper negs and no curves and gets glorious prints! > > I do not experience flaking but I don't roller it anymore. When I first started I got lots of flaking but I was scrubbing the print with a sponge to remove the stuff! Now I use spray but mainly automatic development, with some brush-off work with teeny brushes when I want to take color off an area or brighten something up. > > I have as of late been doing a new way of layering: first the blue, then magenta to get a purple look and make sure the contrast is correct. Then the color balance comes with the yellow layer. All of the prints are at least 4 layers of casein, up to 6. I usually do the tricolor first, and then come back and color correct with either one or two layers. Often, for instance, I'll need another magenta and then a final blue to tone down the magenta. > > Matti, my secret is this: do it over and over to exclusion until you figure it out. The more you do, the more you learn how it works. Slaving away is the real secret :) I would say in the last month I spent close to 300 hr getting this project half-done.That's my only secret because as you must know by now I blab all. AND, if you go here, no need to buy the book: http://stores.photoformulary.com/images/store_version1/07-0106%20Casein%20Printing.pdf > > Ok, I think that answers all the comments at length! > > Chris > > Christina Z. Anderson > christinaZanderson.com > From altguido at gmail.com Wed May 29 09:02:07 2013 From: altguido at gmail.com (Guido Ceuppens) Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 11:02:07 +0200 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein prints In-Reply-To: <71ABD54F-5818-49A2-B23C-AB2A31175D7E@gmail.com> References: <8FA3B696-313A-4726-BC8A-AE4E09D8777B@gmail.com> <71ABD54F-5818-49A2-B23C-AB2A31175D7E@gmail.com> Message-ID: Chris, A very interesting body of work, great story and beautifully worked out. I agree on the size, a subject like this can benefit a lot from an "intimate? presentation. Casein does indeed allow a rapid workflow and can take a lot of handling when developing. Great work, thanks for sharing! Guido 2013/5/29 Diana Bloomfield > Hey Chris, > > I hear you on the more intimate size images. That a small print (even as > small as 3x3) can have a major impact when framed and hanging on a wall > always surprises me, but they sure seem to have that effect. I think they > just pull people in that much closer. Of course, we see so much that's so > big now (mural size) that even 8x10's seem quite small in comparison. I > love square images, in particular, and 8x8 I imagine is a very nice size > for these. > > That's so interesting, too, about the negatives (and not the slides) > having survived so well. My father was a fantastic photographer, and I > have some beautiful b&w images he made-- many hand-tinted-- a lot of my > mother when she was young. They're just beautiful, and beautifully printed. > The photographs themselves are in perfect shape-- they've definitely held > up-- but I have no idea what happened to the negatives-- that goes for all > the negatives to all the photos ever taken in my family. I'm guessing back > then people took the photographs, had them processed-- and maybe printed a > few-- but that was that. No reason to keep or care about the negatives > (?). But I love looking at old photographs like that, because they tell > you so much. These are really so interesting; they almost look like still > images from an old movie. And the way you chose to print these seems to > fit them perfectly. > > Diana > > > > > On May 28, 2013, at 9:18 PM, Christina Anderson wrote: > > > Hi Loris, Diana, Matti, and Graham all in one post, so long post, beware! > > > > Loris, I have printed on Yupo and it was fine with casein, very > tenacious, but these are all on Artistico. > > > > All of this series are 8x8. I've printed this series large in the past, > 12x16 in 20x24 frames, the ones from the 35mm slides. These images are from > 2 1/4 negatives. I have been in the mood to be quieter and smaller with my > work and framing lately, for aesthetic and personal reasons but also for > space and cost reasons. I have also switched from my two usual frames, a > black wood Tribeca or a metal Old World Pewter. These are all 8x8 framed in > 13x13 mats and natural wood (maple) frames that have a very quiet presence. > I am also framing them without the brush strokes showing, so all in all > they are more contemporary in feel. They can be gridded, for instance, very > easily. The benefit to small is I was able to fit 10 of these framed images > in a small enough box to carry! So shipping to shows will be a huge > savings. But that wasn't my reasoning for going this route, it was a desire > to be more visually intimate with my work. Oddly enough, they seem big in > person, at 8x8. > > > > I am just loving the very simple, clean, maple frames. They cost me more > inch by inch but they are worth it! The frame has a 1/2" front and is about > 3/4 or 1" deep. I think. I am not near them right now. > > > > Diana, the slides are in tough shape, lots of mold. The negatives have > survived better for some reason, I don't know why. My parents left them all > in a big jumbled box in an unheated cabin through minus 30F to 95F for > decades. Why take so many pictures and not care about their outcome, I > wonder? > > > > Matti and Graham, when I first started casein it was terrible, because I > came at it thinking it was just like gum. When I started over, calibrated > my negatives to casein, figured out correct times of exposure and hot water > development, it all worked. I could not believe that exposures could be so > brief when I read Guido Ceuppens' posts from years ago, but they are. > > > > My layers are very thin. I use less than 1/2 tsp coating solution for an > 8x8. Then I brush and brush until dry. If I leave it without brushing it > hardens into very visible brush strokes. My negatives are very dull and > dark. My exposures are 1 minute. I could even get by with 30 seconds! My > development water is quite warm. I spray liberally, especially the first > layer, otherwise I find I have misjudged what is developed and get too low > contrast a picture. I spray right after the dichromate has all leached out. > But with casein, I can spray at the end of development and all throughout > because it is not tender like gum. It is very hardy and stubborn, even with > such brief exposures. I almost feel it is an on/off proposition and Mark > Nelson suggested trying bitmap negs for that reason. However, I use regular > continuous tone negs. Printed 126 so far! (RGBs). Heck Peter Blackburn uses > paper negs and no curves and gets glorious prints! > > > > I do not experience flaking but I don't roller it anymore. When I first > started I got lots of flaking but I was scrubbing the print with a sponge > to remove the stuff! Now I use spray but mainly automatic development, with > some brush-off work with teeny brushes when I want to take color off an > area or brighten something up. > > > > I have as of late been doing a new way of layering: first the blue, then > magenta to get a purple look and make sure the contrast is correct. Then > the color balance comes with the yellow layer. All of the prints are at > least 4 layers of casein, up to 6. I usually do the tricolor first, and > then come back and color correct with either one or two layers. Often, for > instance, I'll need another magenta and then a final blue to tone down the > magenta. > > > > Matti, my secret is this: do it over and over to exclusion until you > figure it out. The more you do, the more you learn how it works. Slaving > away is the real secret :) I would say in the last month I spent close to > 300 hr getting this project half-done.That's my only secret because as you > must know by now I blab all. AND, if you go here, no need to buy the book: > http://stores.photoformulary.com/images/store_version1/07-0106%20Casein%20Printing.pdf > > > > Ok, I think that answers all the comments at length! > > > > Chris > > > > Christina Z. Anderson > > christinaZanderson.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > From mjkoskin at gmail.com Thu May 30 00:30:50 2013 From: mjkoskin at gmail.com (Matti Koskinen) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 03:30:50 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] casein on glass Message-ID: hi, I tried casein on glass, and was really surprised how well one print out of 4 came out. Others, user error. I found two glass shelves abandoned behind our garage. I cleaned them and cut into total of four pieces. I mixed my normal mixture and tried three different ways of coating. Two was smoothened with a foam roller, and they gave a very even layer. One I brushed over and over again with a foam brush, quite a good coating. One was just brushed and left to dry as such. First I exposed the foam roller coated one for 2 mins, but that was way too short, developing all the casein came off. Then I exposed the brushed one, the brushed until dry, and that came as a usable print. I probably stacked the glasses too early (having a paper between them), because the two bottom glasses had marks, just like two wet glasses together. The glasses were touch dry, but should have dried more thoroughly. But developing, the foam rolled left only parts of the image and the brushed was washed clean. The shelf is too thick, first the stacking, there was too much pressure on the bottom glasses. The print that was almost good, doesn't look good placed on a white paper. The thickness gives disturbing shadows. But one really good thing is, that a ruined print can be washed, and the glass used again. Jorj, really nice pictures, I got similar density as in your Fire Bikes (one coating?). How thick or thin glass do you use? thanks -matti From jorj at jorj.org Thu May 30 01:29:37 2013 From: jorj at jorj.org (Jorj Bauer) Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 21:29:37 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein on glass In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49995B84-BEFC-42F5-8EAB-AAA93F042F63@jorj.org> > I tried casein on glass, and was really surprised how well one print out of 4 came out. Others, user error. You're doing a lot better than I did. I printed months of the stuff trying to get it working the first time. :) > The shelf is too thick, first the stacking, there was too much pressure on the bottom glasses. The print that was almost good, doesn't look good placed on a white paper. The thickness gives disturbing shadows. I backlight my glass prints. I also print them on 3/16" glass, printing on both the front and back of each of three panes - two C, two M, two Y (or sometimes just one Y, on the back of the frontmost pane to avoid having to use an extra protective sheet up front). > Jorj, really nice pictures, I got similar density as in your Fire Bikes (one coating?). How thick or thin glass do you use? Fire Bikes is on Rives BFK, actually. That's Burning Man playa dust, suspended in casein; probably 3 or 4 layers. No other pigment which is why it's so thin. Of that set on Flickr, there are two on glass - She Drank a Little Whiskey, and Marching Ever Onward. They're two of my early glass prints (I think Marching was my first, and Whiskey might be my second or third), each only one layer of casein per pane of glass. So they're both very thick; probably 6 or 7 panes each. I really like the parallax of the color separations on their own layer; it really needs to be seen in person. -- Jorj From mail at loris.medici.name Thu May 30 06:54:08 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 09:54:08 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jean, In short: A 20 minutes treatment in ~9.5% sulfamic acid and a good wash... You can find more / detailed information at the pages below: First post of Serdar: http://www.apug.org/forums/viewpost.php?p=1493591 Second post: http://www.apug.org/forums/viewpost.php?p=1494359 Thread: http://www.apug.org/forums/forum42/118153-sulfamic-acid-paper-acidification.html Regards, Loris. 2013/5/29 Jean Daubas > Hi Loris! > Congratulations > it?s really a beautifiul colour you get now! > Could you give some precisions about your de-alkalizing procedure with > sulfamic acid ( dilutions, duration, etc.) > > Alternative cheers from France, > Jean > > From: Loris Medici > Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 10:06 PM > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft > Press 300gsm (140lb) > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Thu May 30 07:20:57 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 10:20:57 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Marek, Yes, the dilution is 2 parts standard strength stock Argyrotype + 1 part water. It works so well for me that I'll dilute the whole current batch and will mix the next batches already diluted... Regards, Loris. 2013/5/29 Marek Matusz > Loris, > > You dilution of 2:1 is 2 parts chemistry 1 part water? I would like to try > that on FA for more DMAX. It is actually about 1 step less then Rising > Stonehenge (all treated with sulfamic acid). > > Marek > > > From: jean.daubas at wanadoo.fr > > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > > Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 01:15:52 +0200 > > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White > Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) > > > > Hi Loris! > > Congratulations > > it?s really a beautifiul colour you get now! > > Could you give some precisions about your de-alkalizing procedure with > sulfamic acid ( dilutions, duration, etc.) > > > > Alternative cheers from France, > > Jean > > > > From: Loris Medici > > Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 10:06 PM > > To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list > > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White > Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > From mjkoskin at gmail.com Thu May 30 08:31:31 2013 From: mjkoskin at gmail.com (Matti Koskinen) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 11:31:31 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein on glass In-Reply-To: <49995B84-BEFC-42F5-8EAB-AAA93F042F63@jorj.org> References: <49995B84-BEFC-42F5-8EAB-AAA93F042F63@jorj.org> Message-ID: <3811439E-FFC6-4688-9338-890108147DB7@gmail.com> On May 30, 2013, at 4:29 AM, Jorj Bauer wrote: >> I tried casein on glass, and was really surprised how well one print out of 4 came out. Others, user error. > > You're doing a lot better than I did. I printed months of the stuff trying to get it working the first time. :) well, mine took just about 2 years. Banging my head, until trying on glass! I never tried on good quality paper, always on the same Daler&Rowney's watercolour pad, which is good enough for cyanos. > backlight my glass prints. I also print them on 3/16" glass, printing on both the front and back of each of three panes - two C, two M, two Y (or sometimes just one Y, on the back of the frontmost pane to avoid having to use an extra protective sheet up front). > >> Jorj, really nice pictures, I got similar density as in your Fire Bikes (one coating?). How thick or thin glass do you use? > > Fire Bikes is on Rives BFK, actually. That's Burning Man playa dust, suspended in casein; probably 3 or 4 layers. No other pigment which is why it's so thin. > > Of that set on Flickr, there are two on glass - She Drank a Little Whiskey, and Marching Ever Onward. They're two of my early glass prints (I think Marching was my first, and Whiskey might be my second or third), each only one layer of casein per pane of glass. So they're both very thick; probably 6 or 7 panes each. I really like the parallax of the color separations on their own layer; it really needs to be seen in person. > > -- Jorj now it's the immense task to find the proper PS-curve, On Jalo's book, there's one picture of tens of ChartThrob prints hanging drying. thanks -matti From jorj at jorj.org Thu May 30 12:06:09 2013 From: jorj at jorj.org (Jorj Bauer) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 08:06:09 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein on glass In-Reply-To: <3811439E-FFC6-4688-9338-890108147DB7@gmail.com> References: <49995B84-BEFC-42F5-8EAB-AAA93F042F63@jorj.org> <3811439E-FFC6-4688-9338-890108147DB7@gmail.com> Message-ID: > now it's the immense task to find the proper PS-curve, On Jalo's book, there's one picture of tens of ChartThrob prints hanging drying. I know the feeling. I've got piles of them too. Maybe this will help you: I dug up my notes for She Drank a Little Whiskey. The glass is prepped with a scrub of barkeeper's friend (later prints had very little to no glass prep; I found it unnecessary, except to remove the tape residue from its packaging). I'm printing the negs with epson inks on a Stylus Pro 4000, and I found that cyan is particularly good at blocking the right UV wavelength for casein prints, so there's an overlay of RGB 88/76/00. The negatives are also printed with a border; trimming them to that border yields a neg that lines up with the edges of the glass. That's how I register on glass; to the edges of the pane. Of course since I'm printing on multiple panes of glass, I then register the panes with each other when they're set in the final frame. I put a scaled-down version of the photoshop document here, which might be useful to see what I meant by all of that: http://www.jorj.org/expire/whiskey-negs.psd and just the curve, which I also use for 5 minute casein exposures on Fabriano Artistico, here: http://www.jorj.org/expire/jorj_887600_casein_5m_fabart.acv I used Schmincke pigments, ~0.3g, with 3ml of 10% ammonium caseinate and 3ml of ~13% (saturated) potassium dichromate, reheated to get it back in solution (the ambient temperature was probably 50F/10C). That covered two 8x10 panes of glass; I like to print at least two at once. I noted that 0.5g of pigment was too much and caused flaking while soaking in water. Potassium dichromate was an important part of the process. I noted a lot of failures using ammonium dichromate. I'm sure one could make AmDi work just fine with enough work. I didn't put in too much effort. My casein stock is dry casein powder, used for milk paints. It's much easier to work with than milk, and stores a lot better :) 500g of "Ultra Casein Powder" from earthpigments.com, looks to be a 5-year supply for me. Brushed 3ml on to an 8"x10" pane of glass, edge-to-edge, over a 5-minute period. Not brushed continuously; I let it rest for ~30 seconds between brushings at first, and gave it more regular brushings as it approached dry (over about 10 minutes). Dried ~30 minutes longer in a drying cabinet. Exposures are between 6 and 7.5 minutes; it looks like my starting point was 7.5, and some layers/negatives pushed me down as low as 6. (Homemade UV BL exposure unit, about 6" away from the vacuum frame.) The casein stuck firmly to the sheets of glass, which cleared in about 90 seconds of cold water soak. -- Jorj From mjkoskin at gmail.com Thu May 30 13:28:59 2013 From: mjkoskin at gmail.com (Matti Koskinen) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 16:28:59 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein on glass In-Reply-To: References: <49995B84-BEFC-42F5-8EAB-AAA93F042F63@jorj.org> <3811439E-FFC6-4688-9338-890108147DB7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5489B1BE-62D1-43DF-9797-8F1FF59F54EE@gmail.com> Dear Jorj, zillion thanks for the info, really appreciated. I tried to clean the glass panes, but hardened and dried casein sits on the glass: I tried different solvents, none had any effect, then just used very fine steel wool to scrub the glass. I used to do negs with different inkjet printers, but then I just tried the smooth side of an OHP-transparency, which is made for laser printers, other side for inkjet, and the neg was very smooth, much smoother than creating error-diffusion bitmap with PS, which I used before when printing photos with laser. The HP-driver for a second-hand HP Laserjet 1018, gives really smooth, to my eyes dot-free prints. Sometimes the negs have lines on them, but printing again, I normally get a useful neg. And lasers are fast compared to inkjets. The curve is really interesting, once ChartThrob made quite alike a curve for cyano. I wrote a program long ago, which takes the original image, a reference image and tries to adjust histogram of the original to be like the histogram of the reference image. Didn't think too much, but the basic idea was, that if you have good image after the curve applied, you could use this for another image to adjust it ready for neg. Your psd, which has both the original full-tone version and curve for it, made me think this code again. I'll check with some images, probably not good for adjusting them, but interesting to see. I've been using acrylic paint or gouache. Yesterday couldn't find my gouache, so I used process black acrylic, and it worked very well. thanks again. -matti On May 30, 2013, at 3:06 PM, Jorj Bauer wrote: >> now it's the immense task to find the proper PS-curve, On Jalo's book, there's one picture of tens of ChartThrob prints hanging drying. > > I know the feeling. I've got piles of them too. > > Maybe this will help you: I dug up my notes for She Drank a Little Whiskey. > > The glass is prepped with a scrub of barkeeper's friend (later prints had very little to no glass prep; I found it unnecessary, except to remove the tape residue from its packaging). > > I'm printing the negs with epson inks on a Stylus Pro 4000, and I found that cyan is particularly good at blocking the right UV wavelength for casein prints, so there's an overlay of RGB 88/76/00. The negatives are also printed with a border; trimming them to that border yields a neg that lines up with the edges of the glass. That's how I register on glass; to the edges of the pane. Of course since I'm printing on multiple panes of glass, I then register the panes with each other when they're set in the final frame. > > I put a scaled-down version of the photoshop document here, which might be useful to see what I meant by all of that: > > http://www.jorj.org/expire/whiskey-negs.psd > > and just the curve, which I also use for 5 minute casein exposures on Fabriano Artistico, here: > > http://www.jorj.org/expire/jorj_887600_casein_5m_fabart.acv > > > I used Schmincke pigments, ~0.3g, with 3ml of 10% ammonium caseinate and 3ml of ~13% (saturated) potassium dichromate, reheated to get it back in solution (the ambient temperature was probably 50F/10C). That covered two 8x10 panes of glass; I like to print at least two at once. > > I noted that 0.5g of pigment was too much and caused flaking while soaking in water. > > Potassium dichromate was an important part of the process. I noted a lot of failures using ammonium dichromate. I'm sure one could make AmDi work just fine with enough work. I didn't put in too much effort. > > My casein stock is dry casein powder, used for milk paints. It's much easier to work with than milk, and stores a lot better :) 500g of "Ultra Casein Powder" from earthpigments.com, looks to be a 5-year supply for me. > > Brushed 3ml on to an 8"x10" pane of glass, edge-to-edge, over a 5-minute period. Not brushed continuously; I let it rest for ~30 seconds between brushings at first, and gave it more regular brushings as it approached dry (over about 10 minutes). Dried ~30 minutes longer in a drying cabinet. > > Exposures are between 6 and 7.5 minutes; it looks like my starting point was 7.5, and some layers/negatives pushed me down as low as 6. (Homemade UV BL exposure unit, about 6" away from the vacuum frame.) > > The casein stuck firmly to the sheets of glass, which cleared in about 90 seconds of cold water soak. > > > -- Jorj > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Thu May 30 16:15:17 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 16:15:17 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , , , , , , Message-ID: Loris, I am going to try this. I also read somewhere along the line of good luck with Lanaquarelle paper, but can't remmber if it was for argyrotype on VDB. Anyways I have acidified some Lanaquarelle with sulfamic acid and will try argyrotype on it. I bought a pack of Lanaquarelly a few years ago to try for gum, but it was no good for this application. Marek > Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 10:20:57 +0300 > From: mail at loris.medici.name > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) > > Hi Marek, > > Yes, the dilution is 2 parts standard strength stock Argyrotype + 1 part > water. It works so well for me that I'll dilute the whole current batch and > will mix the next batches already diluted... > > Regards, > Loris. > > > > 2013/5/29 Marek Matusz > > > Loris, > > > > You dilution of 2:1 is 2 parts chemistry 1 part water? I would like to try > > that on FA for more DMAX. It is actually about 1 step less then Rising > > Stonehenge (all treated with sulfamic acid). > > > > Marek From sanking at clemson.edu Thu May 30 18:37:44 2013 From: sanking at clemson.edu (Sandy King) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 14:37:44 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , , , , , , Message-ID: <0F6D7363-6538-413F-8A64-2A2C3325BBA1@clemson.edu> Hi Marek, I made some really nice prints with gold toned vandyke on Lanaquarelle. The reflective Dmax was very high, about log 1.60 measured with an X-Rite 408. I acidified the paper with a 1.5% solution of oxalic acid, with just a couple of minutes soak time. At the time I was doing this work Sam Wang was working with gold toned argyrotype and also getting very high Dmax, but I don't remember what paper he was using. In any event there is virtually no difference in "look" between gold toned vandyke and argyrotype. Sandy On May 30, 2013, at 12:15 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > Loris, > > > > I am going to try this. I also read somewhere along the line of good luck with Lanaquarelle paper, but can't remmber if it was for argyrotype on VDB. Anyways I have acidified some Lanaquarelle with sulfamic acid and will try argyrotype on it. I bought a pack of Lanaquarelly a few years ago to try for gum, but it was no good for this application. > > > > Marek > > > >> Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 10:20:57 +0300 >> From: mail at loris.medici.name >> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org >> Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) >> >> Hi Marek, >> >> Yes, the dilution is 2 parts standard strength stock Argyrotype + 1 part >> water. It works so well for me that I'll dilute the whole current batch and >> will mix the next batches already diluted... >> >> Regards, >> Loris. >> >> >> >> 2013/5/29 Marek Matusz >> >>> Loris, >>> >>> You dilution of 2:1 is 2 parts chemistry 1 part water? I would like to try >>> that on FA for more DMAX. It is actually about 1 step less then Rising >>> Stonehenge (all treated with sulfamic acid). >>> >>> Marek > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From bobkiss at caribsurf.com Thu May 30 18:45:18 2013 From: bobkiss at caribsurf.com (BOB KISS) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 14:45:18 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] LANA AQUARELLE; ACIDIFY? Message-ID: DEAR LIST, I just bought some of what B&S calls Lana Aquarelle 140 lb from B&S. The info sheet in the pack says that it should be acidified. Is this the same paper to which many of you refer as Lanaquarelle? I print mostly pt/pd, cyano, salt and albumen. For which (or all>) of these processes should the paper be acidified? I just bought an lb of sulfamic acid from a local chem supplier so, ?Have sulfamic. Will acidify!? if necessary. THANKS! CHEERS! BOB Please check my website: http://www.bobkiss.com/ "Live as if you are going to die tomorrow. Learn as if you are going to live forever". Mahatma Gandhi "Earth" without "art" is just "Eh"! (Anonymous graffiti posted on Facebook) ?Madonne e fiori, trionfo eterno di giovent?!? from Mattinata Fiorentina by Antonella Ruggiero __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8394 (20130530) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com From sbilici at gmail.com Thu May 30 18:59:37 2013 From: sbilici at gmail.com (Serdar Bilici) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 21:59:37 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: LANA AQUARELLE; ACIDIFY? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0bd001ce5d67$d63fe790$82bfb6b0$@gmail.com> Hi Bob, I have recently tried sullivan's traditional cyanotype formula(includes oxalic acid and amm. dichromate) with sulfamic acid treated papers and the results were dramatically better compared to untreated/buffered papers. If you are doing new cyanotype (Mike Ware's formula), sulfamic acid treatment (de-alkalising procedure) is a necessary step. I guess acid treatment/de-alkalizing is a must for pt/pd process with lanaquarelle paper. It won't be necessary for albumen. Regards Serdar -----Original Message----- From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of BOB KISS Sent: 30 May?s 2013 Per?embe 21:45 To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org Subject: [Alt-photo] LANA AQUARELLE; ACIDIFY? DEAR LIST, I just bought some of what B&S calls Lana Aquarelle 140 lb from B&S. The info sheet in the pack says that it should be acidified. Is this the same paper to which many of you refer as Lanaquarelle? I print mostly pt/pd, cyano, salt and albumen. For which (or all>) of these processes should the paper be acidified? I just bought all>an lb of sulfamic acid from a local chem supplier so, "Have sulfamic. Will acidify!" if necessary. THANKS! CHEERS! BOB Please check my website: http://www.bobkiss.com/ "Live as if you are going to die tomorrow. Learn as if you are going to live forever". Mahatma Gandhi "Earth" without "art" is just "Eh"! (Anonymous graffiti posted on Facebook) "Madonne e fiori, trionfo eterno di giovent?!" from Mattinata Fiorentina by Antonella Ruggiero __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8394 (20130530) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From bobkiss at caribsurf.com Thu May 30 19:00:47 2013 From: bobkiss at caribsurf.com (BOB KISS) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 15:00:47 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] VERDICT ON FUMED SILICA? Message-ID: DEAR LIST, Is the jury in with a final verdict on using fumed silica to increase Dmax of pt/pd prints? *****And now, the Touchstone question: How many of you actually use it when you print pt/pd (or any other alt processes)? CHEERS! BOB Please check my website: http://www.bobkiss.com/ "Live as if you are going to die tomorrow. Learn as if you are going to live forever". Mahatma Gandhi "Earth" without "art" is just "Eh"! (Anonymous graffiti posted on Facebook) ?Madonne e fiori, trionfo eterno di giovent?!? from Mattinata Fiorentina by Antonella Ruggiero __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 8394 (20130530) __________ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com From jorj at jorj.org Thu May 30 19:02:35 2013 From: jorj at jorj.org (Jorj Bauer) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 15:02:35 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: VERDICT ON FUMED SILICA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18C74C26-B9CC-42DC-BD2C-85F3DA0D2756@jorj.org> I use it for kallitypes. I haven't had the time to sit down with it like I want to, but it clearly improves dmax. I've got a half dozen varieties of FS sitting around waiting for me to get back to testing their relative differences, too... -- Jorj On May 30, 2013, at 3:00 PM, "BOB KISS" wrote: > DEAR LIST, > > Is the jury in with a final verdict on using fumed silica to > increase Dmax of pt/pd prints? > > *****And now, the Touchstone question: How many of you actually use it when > you print pt/pd (or any other alt processes)? > > > CHEERS! > > > BOB > > > > Please check my website: http://www.bobkiss.com/ > > > > > "Live as if you are going to die tomorrow. Learn as if you are going to > live forever". Mahatma Gandhi > > > > "Earth" without "art" is just "Eh"! (Anonymous graffiti posted on Facebook) > > > > ?Madonne e fiori, trionfo eterno di giovent?!? from Mattinata Fiorentina by > Antonella Ruggiero > > > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature > database 8394 (20130530) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From clay at clayharmon.com Thu May 30 19:59:51 2013 From: clay at clayharmon.com (clay harmon's personal website email account) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 15:59:51 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: VERDICT ON FUMED SILICA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93DB88FD-79D3-4C52-A094-5D262E984364@clayharmon.com> I've been using sulfamic for buffer neutralization on my palladium prints for the last month. It works very well, even on heavily buffered papers like Fabriano Extra White. I am getting measured Dmax values of 1.4 or better on all the papers I have tried so far (Rives BFK, Twinrocker, Moulin de Gue and Whatman's Printmaker). I am not as happy with it as the only clearing agent - I seem to still have some residual ferric oxalate in the paper if sulfamic acid is the only clearing agent I use. But a regimen of a first bath of disodium EDTA followed by two baths of Hypoclear with Tetrasodium EDTA added to it seems to work extremely well. My experience with fumed silica has been mixed. It works very well on some papers (twinrocker in particular), but not as well on others. I am getting richer prints on Fabriano Extra White using the sulfamic acid approach than when I used the fumed silica. -Clay On May 30, 2013, at 3:00 PM, "BOB KISS" wrote: > DEAR LIST, > > Is the jury in with a final verdict on using fumed silica to > increase Dmax of pt/pd prints? > > *****And now, the Touchstone question: How many of you actually use it when > you print pt/pd (or any other alt processes)? > > > CHEERS! > > > BOB > > > > Please check my website: http://www.bobkiss.com/ > > > > > "Live as if you are going to die tomorrow. Learn as if you are going to > live forever". Mahatma Gandhi > > > > "Earth" without "art" is just "Eh"! (Anonymous graffiti posted on Facebook) > > > > ?Madonne e fiori, trionfo eterno di giovent?!? from Mattinata Fiorentina by > Antonella Ruggiero > > > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature > database 8394 (20130530) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Thu May 30 20:02:15 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 23:02:15 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein prints In-Reply-To: References: <8FA3B696-313A-4726-BC8A-AE4E09D8777B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear Christina, Do you have a special procedure for Yupo (coating and/or development) or you treat it as normal paper? Agree about size, it's more economic and less prone to errors / mishaps, I find print sizes over 11x14" quite hard myself. I currently print 8x10" (image size, paper is slightly larger...), it's not too small and it's not too big - just rigt! As for the frames, my standard wood is the same as yours, unvarnished maple. (I don't like dark frames much since our alt images aren't as dark as silver gelatin or inkjet prints and dark frames overwhelm them...) The frame has a relatively narrow (2cm) but deep (3-4cm) profile. The photo lays at the back. (Not close to the glazing but the backboard - inside the frame, the wood between the mat and glazing is covered with slats made with from the mat. Maybe there's a term for this framing style but unfortunately I don't know it!) I often have my iron-silver images on thin paper float mounted. In that case, I use an irregular / deckle edge patterned ruler to tear the edges. Regards, Loris. 2013/5/29 Christina Anderson > Hi Loris, Diana, Matti, and Graham all in one post, so long post, beware! > > Loris, I have printed on Yupo and it was fine with casein, very tenacious, > but these are all on Artistico. > > All of this series are 8x8. I've printed this series large in the past, > 12x16 in 20x24 frames, the ones from the 35mm slides. These images are from > 2 1/4 negatives. I have been in the mood to be quieter and smaller with my > work and framing lately, for aesthetic and personal reasons but also for > space and cost reasons. I have also switched from my two usual frames, a > black wood Tribeca or a metal Old World Pewter. These are all 8x8 framed in > 13x13 mats and natural wood (maple) frames that have a very quiet presence. > I am also framing them without the brush strokes showing, so all in all > they are more contemporary in feel. They can be gridded, for instance, very > easily. The benefit to small is I was able to fit 10 of these framed images > in a small enough box to carry! So shipping to shows will be a huge > savings. But that wasn't my reasoning for going this route, it was a desire > to be more visually intimate with my work. Oddly enough, they seem big in > person, at 8x8. > > I am just loving the very simple, clean, maple frames. They cost me more > inch by inch but they are worth it! The frame has a 1/2" front and is about > 3/4 or 1" deep. I think. I am not near them right now. > ?...? From mail at loris.medici.name Thu May 30 20:07:39 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 23:07:39 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) In-Reply-To: <0F6D7363-6538-413F-8A64-2A2C3325BBA1@clemson.edu> References: <0F6D7363-6538-413F-8A64-2A2C3325BBA1@clemson.edu> Message-ID: Dear Sandy, Indeed, the colors are very close if toned to completion - using full strength toner. (It's slightly different with diluted toner though...) OTOH, according to my recent experience, Argyrotype (even diluted 2+1) gives slightly better dmax than Vandyke. (Both single coated.) When printing Vandyke, which one you do - double coating or single coating? ?Regards, Loris.? 2013/5/30 Sandy King > ?... > In any event there is virtually no difference in "look" between gold > toned vandyke and argyrotype. > From sanking at clemson.edu Thu May 30 20:24:40 2013 From: sanking at clemson.edu (Sandy King) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 16:24:40 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) In-Reply-To: References: <0F6D7363-6538-413F-8A64-2A2C3325BBA1@clemson.edu> Message-ID: Loris, My normal coating procedure is to double coat. I use the same light sensitive solution, but the first coating is diluted 1+1 with water, second coating is full strength. I have done this with all of the iron sensitive processes, including kallitype and pt/pd, and almost always got a bit more Dmax with the double coating method (or perhaps the 1.5X coating method). Sandy On May 30, 2013, at 4:07 PM, Loris Medici wrote: > Dear Sandy, > > Indeed, the colors are very close if toned to completion - using full > strength toner. (It's slightly different with diluted toner though...) > OTOH, according to my recent experience, Argyrotype (even diluted 2+1) > gives slightly better dmax than Vandyke. (Both single coated.) When > printing Vandyke, which one you do - double coating or single coating? > > ?Regards, > Loris.? > > > 2013/5/30 Sandy King > >> ?... >> In any event there is virtually no difference in "look" between gold >> toned vandyke and argyrotype. >> > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From mail at loris.medici.name Thu May 30 20:31:00 2013 From: mail at loris.medici.name (Loris Medici) Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 23:31:00 +0300 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Argyrotype on Fabriano Artistico Extra White Soft Press 300gsm (140lb) In-Reply-To: References: <0F6D7363-6538-413F-8A64-2A2C3325BBA1@clemson.edu> Message-ID: Same here, double coated Vandyke is better in terms of dmax. But I really don't like to double coat, I sometimes get pour marks when I do so, therefore I left that practice. When gold toned, single coated Vandyke or Argyrotype both give me convincing dmax - Argyrotype being better. That's a great tip though, may try it for some images in the future. Thanks much! Regards, Loris. 2013/5/30 Sandy King > Loris, > > My normal coating procedure is to double coat. I use the same light > sensitive solution, but the first coating is diluted 1+1 with water, second > coating is full strength. I have done this with all of the iron sensitive > processes, including kallitype and pt/pd, and almost always got a bit more > Dmax with the double coating method (or perhaps the 1.5X coating method). > > Sandy > > > > > > > > > > > On May 30, 2013, at 4:07 PM, Loris Medici wrote: > > > Dear Sandy, > > > > Indeed, the colors are very close if toned to completion - using full > > strength toner. (It's slightly different with diluted toner though...) > > OTOH, according to my recent experience, Argyrotype (even diluted 2+1) > > gives slightly better dmax than Vandyke. (Both single coated.) When > > printing Vandyke, which one you do - double coating or single coating? > > > > ?Regards, > > Loris.? > > > > > > 2013/5/30 Sandy King > > > >> ?... > >> In any event there is virtually no difference in "look" between gold > >> toned vandyke and argyrotype. > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Fri May 31 18:32:53 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 18:32:53 +0000 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Four color gum In-Reply-To: <07591C54-B260-4B10-B4B1-F060E1F00EA8@gmail.com> References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com>, , ,,, , ,,<51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com>, , ,,, , ,,, , ,,<99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com>, ,,, , , , , , , <4773BD83-18DA-4542-8D9C-64C1DE6766F5@gmail.com>, , <31D71573-52A7-4CAB-83FD-69801BA12D34@pictoform.nu>, <07591C54-B260-4B10-B4B1-F060E1F00EA8@gmail.com> Message-ID: All, Here is the link to my final set of pictures. All 3 prints are done now. https://plus.google.com/photos/105732508998271877151/albums/5882305049320410433 My workflow was somewhat different from Chia's. I used graphite gray (which comes as a nice neutral black on the print) for my fist black layer with K negative. Then I decided to use RGB separations for added color. My blue was cobalt blue (Daniel Smith). It is a very light, clean blue, which suited me well since I was going for a tint rather then full color saturation. I have included pictures of that stage. Then I added magenta (quinacridone rose from DS). This turned out to be a bit more saturated then I would like. For one of the images I have included two versions of the print. One with just soak water development, perhaps 15 minutes and the second image after spray development and brushing. I need to cut the magenta concentration for my next project. I did do a lot of spraying and brushing to remove parts of the image at every stage. For yellow I used Quinacridone gold PO49. It is more muted then typical process yellow. Just one of the images (amaryllis) contained a substantial yellow component and it blended very nicely with PV19 for the coral red of the amaryllis. Finally another lighter graphite layer to adjust (darken) background and add a touch of contrast in parts of images. That was one intense printing week and I am very excited about the images and the new printing workflow. I did try doing low saturation images before and they always come muddy and just unpleasant. This workflow of starting with a solid black layer is just amazing as it allowed me to visualize the steps of adding hints of color while keeping solid and crisp image. Thanks to Chia for sharing. Marek From dlhbloomfield at gmail.com Fri May 31 21:30:56 2013 From: dlhbloomfield at gmail.com (Diana Bloomfield) Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 17:30:56 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: Four color gum In-Reply-To: References: <51982938.9020209@gmail.com>, , , , , , , , <51988A5B.7060408@gmail.com> <050701ce5480$920b8a60$b6229f20$@gmail.com>, , , , , , , , , , , , <99E493F6-B755-4C1D-9A0A-877BEF6583F2@gmail.com>, , , , , , , , , , <4773BD83-18DA-4542-8D9C-64C1DE6766F5@gmail.com>, , <31D71573-52A7-4CAB-83FD-69801BA12D34@pictoform.nu>, <07591C54-B260-4B10-B4B1-F060E1F00EA8@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hey Marek, Wow-- Thank you so much for sharing all these. I love them. I think they're really wonderful and definitely have that look that's so appealing. And thanks for all the details. I always use Quinacridone gold for my yellows. For some reason, when I first started gum, I seemed to have problems with various yellows-- except for that one. That's really interesting/informative to see the process here, too. I love the gray/blue of it all-- and just a hint of pink in those few. I look forward to trying this. I had ordered some powdered lamp black-- but I do have graphite on hand, so I might try it with what I have tomorrow. I'm thinking that the brushing/spraying technique is a bit tricky(?)-- but this is very helpful. Thanks. Really really like the look of these. Diana On May 31, 2013, at 2:32 PM, Marek Matusz wrote: > > > All, Here is the link to my final set of pictures. All 3 prints are done now. https://plus.google.com/photos/105732508998271877151/albums/5882305049320410433 My workflow was somewhat different from Chia's. I used graphite gray (which comes as a nice neutral black on the print) for my fist black layer with K negative. Then I decided to use RGB separations for added color. My blue was cobalt blue (Daniel Smith). It is a very light, clean blue, which suited me well since I was going for a tint rather then full color saturation. I have included pictures of that stage. Then I added magenta (quinacridone rose from DS). This turned out to be a bit more saturated then I would like. For one of the images I have included two versions of the print. One with just soak water development, perhaps 15 minutes and the second image after spray development and brushing. I need to cut the magenta concentration for my next project. I did do a lot of spraying and brushing to remove parts of the i > mage at every stage. For yellow I used Quinacridone gold PO49. It is more muted then typical process yellow. Just one of the images (amaryllis) contained a substantial yellow component and it blended very nicely with PV19 for the coral red of the amaryllis. Finally another lighter graphite layer to adjust (darken) background and add a touch of contrast in parts of images. That was one intense printing week and I am very excited about the images and the new printing workflow. I did try doing low saturation images before and they always come muddy and just unpleasant. This workflow of starting with a solid black layer is just amazing as it allowed me to visualize the steps of adding hints of color while keeping solid and crisp image. Thanks to Chia for sharing. Marek > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From marekmatusz at hotmail.com Fri May 31 21:53:50 2013 From: marekmatusz at hotmail.com (Marek Matusz) Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 16:53:50 -0500 Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: LANA AQUARELLE; ACIDIFY? In-Reply-To: <0bd001ce5d67$d63fe790$82bfb6b0$@gmail.com> References: <0bd001ce5d67$d63fe790$82bfb6b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Bob The label on the paper pack says Lana lanaquarelle There is also a small stamp in the corner saying lanaquarelle Marek Sent from my iPhone On May 30, 2013, at 1:59 PM, "Serdar Bilici" wrote: > Hi Bob, > > I have recently tried sullivan's traditional cyanotype formula(includes > oxalic acid and amm. dichromate) with sulfamic acid treated papers and the > results were dramatically better compared to untreated/buffered papers. > > If you are doing new cyanotype (Mike Ware's formula), sulfamic acid > treatment (de-alkalising procedure) is a necessary step. > > I guess acid treatment/de-alkalizing is a must for pt/pd process with > lanaquarelle paper. > > It won't be necessary for albumen. > > Regards > Serdar > > -----Original Message----- > From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org > [mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of > BOB KISS > Sent: 30 May?s 2013 Per?embe 21:45 > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org > Subject: [Alt-photo] LANA AQUARELLE; ACIDIFY? > > DEAR LIST, > > I just bought some of what B&S calls Lana Aquarelle 140 lb from > B&S. The info sheet in the pack says that it should be acidified. Is this > the same paper to which many of you refer as Lanaquarelle? > > I print mostly pt/pd, cyano, salt and albumen. For which (or > all>) of these processes should the paper be acidified? I just bought > all>an lb > of sulfamic acid from a local chem supplier so, "Have sulfamic. Will > acidify!" if necessary. > > THANKS! > > CHEERS! > > BOB > > > > Please check my website: http://www.bobkiss.com/ > > > > > "Live as if you are going to die tomorrow. Learn as if you are going to > live forever". Mahatma Gandhi > > > > "Earth" without "art" is just "Eh"! (Anonymous graffiti posted on Facebook) > > > > "Madonne e fiori, trionfo eterno di giovent?!" from Mattinata Fiorentina by > Antonella Ruggiero > > > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature > database 8394 (20130530) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. > > http://www.eset.com > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo > > _______________________________________________ > Alt-photo-process-list | lists.altphotolist.org/mailman/listinfo From jorj at jorj.org Fri May 31 22:19:27 2013 From: jorj at jorj.org (Jorj Bauer) Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 18:19:27 -0400 Subject: [Alt-photo] DAS from China Message-ID: <571D0DEB-9E8A-41DE-9F1A-696E75217B87@jorj.org> Just to follow up to everyone: the DAS from China is great. I'm using a 3% (w/v) solution, 1:1 with acetone, brushed on (because I have existing sheets of carbon) and it works fundamentally the same as a 1.5% of Ammonium Dichromate, 1:1 with acetone, brushed on the same, dried the same, same exposure time. The ChartThrob curves are very similar. Both are nearly linear, with DAS being closer to linear response. Which makes it easier to use stock negatives without diddling with curves; I'll probably never use this curve. The two curves are here for anyone that's interested: http://www.jorj.org/expire/jorj_carbon_das_6m.acv http://www.jorj.org/expire/jorj_carbon_6m.acv -- Jorj