[Alt-photo] Re: casein and Ferrari red

Tue May 14 19:22:29 UTC 2013

Marek,

AHA. That makes sense. I am using a 10% solution ammonium caseinate and don't notice a viscosity difference much, but when I used to use the other caseins and homemade cottage cheese casein I would notice that, so that would be a good tip to know. The ammonia form stays pretty stable.

I just mixed up 500ml of fresh caseinate and tried the pigment in one petri dish and the plain gum in another and the pigment alone did thicken the casein somewhat and create smallish lumps but with stirring went into solution. The gum definitely made the casein instantly thicken. 

I don't normally use gum in my mixes, and this is why I have not observed this before, I think, always using powdered pigments in small batches. Just lately I have been "using up" stuff in the dimroom, including my stock solutions and tube pigments.

So I just did another test. I can't believe I am wasting my day doing this :)

I added lemon juice to the casein solution and instant curds. I added ammonia then to the lemon juice/casein. Curds back in solution. So I am pretty sure (always an exception) that the acidity is the factor, which could vary between pigments and gums and casein for that matter...and account for my not noticing this before.

See here I even documented my experiment again:
http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=1953

As far as grainy, I'm there with you! I have been attempting to get a sort of autochrome look with prints, that very fine grain effect, without the occasional worms because I can't figure that one out! Casein comes very close when I spray layers liberally during development. The grain is very fine and soft. If I were to use the same force with gum, it would flake. I am sort of un-confident about this latest body of work because I have exploited the grain and softness and imperfections with mechanical development methods. I'm hoping that translates to the viewer but it is always a crap shoot. Hey, the worst I could do is waste weeks of my life, because it really is NOT expensive to do 60 prints.
Chris

Christina Z. Anderson
christinaZanderson.com

On May 14, 2013, at 12:32 PM, Marek Matusz wrote:

> SO it seems that is not the pigments, but the additional gum that you mix with casein that is not compatible. I will test that with my solutions as well. 
> On the subject of fresh vs. aged casein solution.
> 
> The reason that I let my solution age for at least few days is that when freshly mixed it is very viscous and coats differntly. As the solution ages it becomes less viscous and eventually after a few days or a week it becomes the consisteny of 14baume gum. The change continues but at a much lower rate and I continue to use the solution for months
> 
> I ended up with grainy prints when using freshly made solution (same or next day). Perhaps I could alter the concentrations, add more water, etc, but did not bother to look into it some more. On the other hand I actually liked the grainy look of the print a lot and wated to follow with tricolur.
> 
> 
> 
>> From: christinazanderson at gmail.com
>> Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 09:18:48 -0600
>> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org
>> Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein and Ferrari red
>> 
>> Dear All,
>> 
>> So glad all of you use that color with no problem!!
>> 
>> Here's a picture of the coagulation just in case you think I'm nuts :) I've also put at the same place my latest "two best friends" for colloid printing.
>> 
>> http://christinaanderson.visualserver.com/Text_page.cfm?pID=1953
>> 
>> After I made the post, I continued casein printing and an hour later when I looked at the mix the curdle had subsided into a usable solution! It was smooth again in other words. So now I was really puzzled.
>> 
>> I even tested it in a print and it worked fine. So thank heavens PR254 is still fine. 
>> 
>> So I went and got a tube of PR254 and then my stock solution (PR254 mixed in gum arabic which I had used) and tried both. The PR254 tube worked fine enough, with a slight thickening. The stock solution (1 tube of PR254 mixed in 45ml gum arabic) immediately curdled the casein. 
>> 
>> So I took my Daniel Smith gum from the gallon container and mixed it into the casein and immediate curdle.
>> 
>> I then tested gum arabic against water to see if it was added liquid and the water did not curdle it.
>> 
>> Thus I have ascertained that gum in tandem with my casein solution is most likely the issue (it was 1/4 tsp of gum/pigment in 1 T casein), but I have never seen this happen before with all the layers I have done, since I started mixing up casein/pigment at time of use. I have to mix a new batch of casein today so I can mix fresh with the gum again and ascertain if the age of the casein is an issue, too.
>> 
>> Marek, the nickel azo yellow working strength solution (I mixed 500ml of it, like I usually do gum arabic and the gum/pigment solutions last forever) precipitated hard chunks after 1 or 2 weeks. They were not usable. Hard curds, not soft curds like yesterday. But I have always used this pigment at time of use. I mix a tube of it in 45ml water to dilute it (it is SO strong) and then I use 1/4 tsp of that to 1 tsp-1T casein. It's just such a concentrated pigment I have a hard time measuring out the right "pea" size, but that's just me.
>> 
>> My casein doesn't go bad, because I use either thymol or now sodium benzoate (1/4 tsp per 100ml solution) as a preservative. In the past, it would start thickish and then get watery over a period of time. Once I did not preserve it and left it in a warm car. Stupid me. What a smell. I threw all away, 250ml bottles and solution. 
>> 
>> Marek, you say you don't use your casein for a couple weeks after mixing. How come? I literally mix 'n go.
>> 
>> Guido, so glad to hear from you!! You haven't posted in a long time! You might not know that you are quoted in my book! I was so surprised at your short exposures (20-30 seconds) when I first read them on an alt post you made years ago, but actually, this whole last period of time I have been exposing all layers at 45 seconds. Incredibly fast.
>> Chris
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Christina Z. Anderson
>> christinaZanderson.com
>> 
>> On May 14, 2013, at 8:03 AM, Guido Ceuppens wrote:
>> 
>>> Christina,
>>> I have used casein with powder pigments and acrylic paints but never with
>>> aquarelle paints. I never saw the curdle or coagulation of the casein as
>>> you described. I have always used powder casein (different
>>> manufacturers/sources,
>>> but now Kremers) made up with ammonium carbonate, borax and lately simple
>>> household ammonia. I keep the casein mixture for not longer than about 3
>>> days (it's so easy to mix) and the mix of pigment/paint, casein and
>>> dichromate for about 24 hours.
>>> 
>>> Guido
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 2013/5/14 Marek Matusz <marekmatusz at hotmail.com>
>>> 
>>>> Kees,
>>>> 
>>>> I use same type of casein mixed from powder and ammonium carbonate with a
>>>> fair amount of preservative.
>>>> 
>>>> Marek
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> From: workshops at polychrome.nl
>>>>> Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 13:46:17 +0200
>>>>> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org
>>>>> Subject: [Alt-photo] Re: casein and Ferrari red
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Chris,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Tried Kremer XSL irgazin red PR 254 (powder igment) in casein. No
>>>> problems!
>>>>> My casein mix is from casein powder with ammoniumcarbonate.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Kees
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 13 mei 2013, at 18:30, Christina Anderson <
>>>> christinazanderson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>> I have been working on a body of casein prints. Today I decided to use
>>>> some PR254, that beautiful Ferrari Red (Daniel Smith Pyrrol Red, Da Vinci
>>>> Red, Maimeri Sandal Red, M.Graham pyrrol red, Rembrandt permanent red deep,
>>>> Schmincke scarlet, Sennelier red, Winsor red are some brand names). Works
>>>> great with gum for a brilliant lipstick red.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I mixed it up with my casein and it was instant curdle/coagulation of
>>>> the casein! No problem at all with the usual colors, but with the metal
>>>> salts as has been discussed on the list you can work with them but stock
>>>> solutions will lump up in a brief time into insoluble chunks so I never mix
>>>> stock casein anymore once I learned that lesson. However, with nickel azo
>>>> yellow, for instance, one of my favorite yellows that lumps up, I can still
>>>> use it if I mix it up right at time of use. Same with red iron oxide.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But PR 254 is diketo pyrrollo-pyrole. Don't have any idea why that
>>>> would make this happen instantly. Does anyone have a guess why this pigment
>>>> causes instant coaglulation and precipitation of the casein??? Is it just
>>>> an acidity thing or is it a metallic salt? It precipitated the casein into
>>>> squishy curds. Never seen this happen so rapidly before...
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Any other casein printers experience colors that coagulate, or want to
>>>> pull out their PR254 and see this happen? If you have, what colors?
>>>>>> Chris
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Christina Z. Anderson
>>>>>> christinaZanderson.com
>>>>>> 
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