I have seen bad examples of their work. That is no reflection of these
people, just the way it is. Or are you one who believes that everything
they produced is great? BTW: I have seen poor examples of prints made by A.
Adams as well; one of my absolute favorite black and white photographers.
>...."there have NEVER
>been any tests that can be repeatable or conclusive").
Sorry, Charlie....I stand by what I said, and I can back it up with data
produced by some very brilliant chemists. There IS no proof that this type
of output has longevity. It is clear from Dye Chemists at Eastman Organic
Chemicals Division - now Fisher Chemical. It is clear from research done by
Polaroid and posted on the ORGAChem Lists (Organic Chemical Industries
Association) for long term Dye Stuffs Research, it is clear from a number
of people at Agfa who develop color technology, from Sprain Research who
develops tests and test equipment for paint chemists designed to test
Automotive paints and related chemicals for, among other things, their
fugitive nature. It is also clear from information included in Patent
Documents. And it is clear from the people I have talked to at the
Underwriters Laboratories. Most importantly, it is clear from information
received from manufacturers of some of the dyes and pigments that are used
to manufacturer printer cartridges. One important point is this: Tests can
be done and unless they are validated and repeatable over and over, it is
simply not a valuable test. That is basic research. Repeatability is so
very important.
So again, I will say: THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO PROOF THAT ANY INK JET OUTPUT
WILL LAST FOR ANY SIGNIFICANT PERIOD OF TIME, WITH THE CURRENT STATE OF THE
ART!
>If Mr. Wilhelms
>work is flawed and is being debunked by "better experts," I'm certain
many
>readers of this list would like to know of it, and to be able investigate
>for themselves.
Try sources listed above as well as searches for Dyes, Pigments, organic
chemistry web sites, etc. But get a good book on the chemistry of dyes and
pigments, as to understand the subject, it is going to take a bit of time.
I certainly trust these sources over most others so often quoted on this
and other lists. As far as that persons work being flawed, perhaps the
language was too strong. A better way of putting it might be to say that
more information has come to light and research of this type needs to be
further investigated. BTW: I am not the only person who makes these claims,
I delved into his (and other research) specifically because of the reports
I have received over the past few years regarding certain claims. And I
highly doubt that anyone who is not involved in the research knows more as
those who are involved in the chemistry. Or are all of the people on this
list organic chemists slash photographers?
You would support your arguments much more persuasively by
>offering names and sources than by beating us over the head with your
>hyperbole and unsupported assertions of Truth. If we are to believe you
>rather than Mr. Wilhelm, whose work and methods are published and easily
>accessible, you'll have do more than simply insist that you know better.
Personally, I have been researching these issues for a project for the past
few years. Specifically, Dichroic Dyes that will align with twin oriented
Poly Vinyl Alcohol long chain molecules, the materials being bonded to both
sides of a sheet of Alcohol based plastic produced by Polaroid called
Vectograph Sheet. Production of Stereoscopic images, printed in full color
via an ink jet printer. I also work with several people who are developing
special materials to silk-screen print decals and exterior signage that
will last longer than current materials do. Not to mention the work I am
doing in trying to manufacture dyes for Dye Transfer Printing. I don't do
things half way, Mr. Valburg, and I am a very smart guy...this is a very
important issue for me.
BTW: Have YOU personally validated the claims made by some of the so called
experts who work in this area, or do you take some of these claims at face
value and hope for the best?
My search and research took me to people working in this specific area of
research, several universities, the Dupont Research Labs, manufacturers of
dye stuffs for the production of WORM and re-writable CD-ROM manufacturing
products, most of the major manufacturers of pigments and dyes for the
printing industry. And since the beginning, the most basic question I
wanted answered was the length one can expect certain color materials to
endure without appreciably fading or deteriorating. Do you want the
specific questionnaires I sent out and the 1500 pages of documents I have
in my files? Do you want more?
There are colorants that last, and can be proven to last. just visit any
museum and look at the Old Masters; assuming you live in an area where this
work might be available to you. The paints were produced from materials
that have stood with perfection for many centuries. Unfortunately, these
materials are not workable in the equipment used to output digital images.
The dyes used to produce photographic materials might work, but are
expensive. I have been asked about the dyes used in Kodachrome, but that is
an impossibility currently. So there are archival materials, just not on
the market.
Regardless of what you and others might think, I know what I am talking
about, and I can comfortably, intelligently and authoritatively discuss
this subject at length. No, not a brilliant guy or a chemist, just someone
who has an almost profound grasp of the subject.. Here is a simple test for
you: Ask the manufacturer of your current printing materials for some sort
of guarantee that the images, if cared for, will last for 3 years with no
appreciable fading. They will not guarantee it, and will tell you that the
current state of the art will not allow for archival storage of the image.
At first they might say their products will last, but if pressed for a
written guarantee, it will not happen. I know people who have tried.
Remember that if you buy most ink jet cartridges, the formulas will change
and different chemical formulations can be used even in cartridges offered
by the same vendor. Buy 2 different cartridges and I'll bet there will be
some differences.
RM