From: Steve Shapiro (sgshiya@redshift.com)
Date: 08/22/02-09:49:05 PM Z
I agree with Claudia.
As apoint in fact, the term for a man interested in little boys, sexually
is from Dickens' "Oliver Twist." In the story was a bad guy named Fagon,
hense the term for a 'bad dude,' a fagon; and he was prone to "take pleasure
in taking a stick from a packet of faggots and beating the bare buttocks of
one pretty little boy or another." Hense, the term for taking pleasure of
one little boy upon another was to call them a faggot.
S
----- Original Message -----
From: "Claudia Lorenz" <clorenz@telusplanet.net>
To: <alt-photo-process-l@skyway.usask.ca>
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: language discussion on the ethics of repeating, for
illustration, prejorative terms
> Duly noted Thom, I think you're correct that one word responses do not
> further understanding. My apologies there. I guess there are some words,
> like the one you referred to that you didn't want to say, that today are
> meant to provoke hurtful feelings. Faggots, being one of those words.
> Anyway, truth be known, I signed on to this list to gather practical
> information about alternative processes. I think some of these debates,
> theories and speeches should be taken off the list, and discussed among
> those that are interested. But that's just my opinion.
>
> Claudia
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thom Mitchell" <tjmitch@ix.netcom.com>
> To: <alt-photo-process-l@sask.usask.ca>
> Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 10:22 AM
> Subject: language discussion on the ethics of repeating, for illustration,
> prejorative terms
>
>
> > Claudia, I don't think she meant any harm or comment, but was merely
> > stating what some people's viewpoints were. Notice the next sentence.
> This
> > is how I read it at least. There is a whole debate waiting to be had on
> > whether or not you can use a term or repeat a term other people use.
> Witness
> > the recent book and subject of the TV show, Boston Common, titled by a
> very
> > divisive word formerly used as common currency in America to refer to
> > African-Americans in general. I won't repeat the word in this space to
> avoid
> > a flame war, but it is similar in constuction to historic term once
> > preferred by W.E.B. Dubois, Negro.
> > If you have a question about the use of a word, please ask it. One
> word
> > responses do not further understanding very often and actually can serve
> to
> > elevate simple misunderstandings into full-scall conflagrations. Back to
> Art
> > Schools, training and teaching methodolgies...
> >
> > Clipped quote from Judy Siegel below.
> > "...My course was a required course (tho I told them & told them it
should
> > be
> > elective) and in the early days gum, for instance, was considered
> > arcane,obscure, and, um, only faggots print gum. Seeing stunning prints
by
> > their predecessors, some known to be adequately "virile" (whatever their
> > affective preference). "
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Claudia Lorenz" <clorenz@telusplanet.net>
> > To: <alt-photo-process-l@sask.usask.ca>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:58 AM
> > Subject: Re: Warning: photographer in training, please reduce speed
ahead.
> >
> >
> > > faggots???
> > >
> > > can someone remind me what the purpose of this list is?
> > >
> > > Claudia
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Judy Seigel" <jseigel@panix.com>
> > > To: <alt-photo-process-l@sask.usask.ca>
> > > Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 9:45 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Warning: photographer in training, please reduce speed
> ahead.
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Tillman Crane wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > my teaching philosophy is..
> > > > >
> > > > > Everything has been done..but it doesn't count until its been done
> by
> > > you.
> > > > > By mastering your craft and stealing from the best, your own
vision
> > > > > and ideas will emerge
> > > > >
> > > > > Just do what you want and eventually the rest of the world will
> catch
> > > > > up with you. If you are always following or finding trends your
own
> > > > > voice will be lost..
> > > >
> > > > I think I attributed these comments to Jon -- sorry Tillman -- tho
> maybe
> > > > they were his, too. Anyway, well said.... ESPECIALLY for students.
I
> > > > used to try convincing students depressed because their teachers
were
> > > > insisting they come up with their own "coherent body of work," a
> > finished
> > > > theme, project or style, when that wasn't what they felt ready or
> eager
> > to
> > > > do. I tried to assure them that this was absurd over-reaching for
the
> > ego
> > > > of the teacher to show they were teaching "professional level."
School
> > IMO
> > > > is SUPPOSED to be a time for experiment and trial, not for turning
out
> > > > (only or mostly) polished work, which of course closes off so much
> else.
> > > > Better to have it ragged, exploratory and learning.
> > > >
> > > > I think I should add that my own experience with the cutting remarks
> of
> > > > teachers long ago was not typical of what I've seen since then.
> > Certainly
> > > > at Pratt both as a student and later as teacher I sensed a great
bond
> of
> > > > camaraderie and support, at times perhaps excessive (IMO)... There
> were
> > > > exceptions, of one teacher in particular who wanted students to work
> in
> > > > their style, but this was NOT the rule. And I myself never heard or
> > heard
> > > > of any teacher saying "that's been done."
> > > >
> > > > Plus of course as someone pointed out, it's the responsibility of
the
> > > > teacher, through intelligent presentation of "current critical
> > concepts,"
> > > > or a course so conceived to give the student that info & let them
> choose
> > > > accordingly.
> > > >
> > > > My own solution to this was simple. At the end of the semester I
shot
> a
> > > > couple of rolls of the strongest student work & incorporated it into
a
> > > > couple of carousels of "history of non -silver" which I showed at
the
> e
> > nd
> > > > of the first class (after showing them the gram scale and describing
> > > > graphically what would happen to those who didn't empty their trays,
> or
> > > > smoked in class.)
> > > >
> > > > The history began with Talbot, Bayard, Cameron, the Pictorialists
> (taken
> > > > from books and a history series out of MoMA), & continued with the
> > > > "moderns," Betty Hahn, Robert Fichter, Darryl Curran, Christopher
> James,
> > > > etc., but over the years most current art from "the books" was
> replaced
> > by
> > > > work of former students... It was probably stronger and it meant
much
> > more
> > > > to them to see what their own schoolmates had done, some of them
still
> > > > visible or known on campus.
> > > >
> > > > My course was a required course (tho I told them & told them it
should
> > be
> > > > elective) and in the early days gum, for instance, was considered
> > arcane,
> > > > obscure, and, um, only faggots print gum. Seeing stunning prints by
> > their
> > > > predecessors, some known to be adequately "virile" (whatever their
> > > > affective preference) was a marvelous first step in breaking down
the
> > > > barrier. Later of course the processes, especially gum, had gotten
> > > > trendier, and even the jock types were interested at the outset.
> > > >
> > > > So don't take my comments about Shannon's teachers possibly doing
> > students
> > > > a favor to turn them off the field to mean I approve of their
> attitude.
> > > > (And I certainly wouldn't say that about "working class kids" just
> > trying
> > > > to get a BA, as she now describes them.... rather than kids with the
> > > > notion that photography is a fun job & you get to sleep with the
> > models.)
> > > > It occurs to me that this kind of thing might be a difference
between
> > > > "good" schools & not so good -- tho that's another topic.
> > > >
> > > > In any event, that's NOT teaching. Teaching is you expose them to
> > concepts
> > > > without heavy breathing, in the normal course of discussion -- you
> > mention
> > > > in a matter-of-fact way that this work is along the lines of so &
so's
> > > > who's showing at the thus & such gallery, or has a new book out, why
> do
> > we
> > > > "like" (or not like) it & what do we think of the differences. Then
> > they
> > > > are horrified or delighted & say or don't say, why they always
wanted
> to
> > > > do that & choose or muddle through accordingly... But for a teacher
> to
> > > > try to persuade a student to work or not work in a given style is
the
> > > > equivalent of a driving teacher teaching them to drive drunk. I mean
a
> > > > teacher sensing an affinity directs the student to study the work
it's
> > > > related to or derived from. To simply say "it's been done --"
frankly
> > > > Shannon, are you sure you don't exaggerate?
> > > >
> > > > There's also the fact, I'd say guarantee, that by the time a teacher
> has
> > > > taken his/her schtick to a tenured position it's already passe (DONE
&
> > > > DONE!) or for sure will be by graduation. I also found that little
> > > > education about styles (only major outlines) had to come from me --
> > > > students picked it up by looking at the work on the wall for class
> crits
> > &
> > > > from magazines, gotten from the library or otherwise & avidly
shared.
> It
> > > > was amazing how much came in by osmosis -- even if I tried to keep
it
> > out,
> > > > I couldn't !
> > > >
> > > > In fact my own experience as student AND teacher is that most of
what
> a
> > > > student learns in school is from fellow students, in small casual
even
> > > > invisible ways they teach each other... by example, comment,
question,
> > or,
> > > > like Picasso says, theft.
> > > >
> > > > (And that, BTW [another digression] is why you get an MFA !!! But it
> has
> > > > to be a "good" school, otherwise it's just another nervous breakdown
> > > > waiting to be born.)
> > > >
> > > > Of course since I was teaching a process course my responsibility
was
> > > > technique. I could afford the luxury of reticence about style. But
> the
> > > > kids were VERRRRRY savvy, and often more aware of hotshots & trends
> than
> > > > the teachers. I myself would never have said "this is bad," meaning
> > > > aesthetically. I might say this is a MESS, you are undercutting
your
> > own
> > > > idea with the execution, and invite class comments about reason for
> the
> > > > mess (or even for success of the mess)...but what is the point in
> > shaming
> > > > a student for lack of talent or wit?
> > > >
> > > > Actually, I tried not to grade on talent, which they were born or
not
> > born
> > > > with & couldn't take credit for. I tried to grade on effort... and,
> > > > surely there's not a teacher in the world who hasn't seen the class
> > > > "dummy" hang in, burrow away, struggle and suffer, and whoa, turn
into
> a
> > > > butterfly (or fill in your own metaphor from nature).
> > > >
> > > > cheers,
> > > >
> > > > Judy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
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