Re: Fibber McGee's Closet

Sandy King wrote:

>
>
> Let me begin this message with a request to Grodon to remove my name
> as one of the list minders of this list. I do so that any comments I
> may make here, and in the future, will be seen as purely my own and
> not as official thought.
>
> I had not expected to write any more about this but changed my mind
> after this latest missive from Judy.
>
> I must acknowledge that Judy's comments about Jewelia would most
> likely not have caused me to become involved in this discussion. What
> determined that for me was her nasty response to Mr. Ptak, in which
> she ended up suggesting that he was a sexist because he complained
> about her remarks and not those of other males. So for the purpose of
> further comments by me Jewelia is not an issue. The issue is Judy's
> lack of civility.
>
> I have been a member of this list for a very long time, during which I
> have both contributed knowledge and experience and benefited from the
> knowledge and experience of others. If anyone cares to go back through
> the archives and look at my messages they will find that a very high
> percentage of them are on-topic dealing with alternative photography.
> I have my faults and one might also find a few examples of bad
> behavior on my part, with both males and females, some of which led to
> unfortunate exchanges that I regret. One in particular with Kerik
> Kouklis comes to mind, along with quite a number with Judy.
> What do we find if we look at Judy's contributions to this list? Well,
> we certainly find a great number of on-topic messages that have
> contributed much to the list. However, one also finds a great number
> of messages that that have nothing to do with alternative photography,
> the so-called prattle discussions.. And then there are the constant
> put-downs of list members, such as the gratuitous and nasty attack
> this week of Mr. Ptak, many which end with Judy calling the person a
> sexist. She has also repeatedly abused the list by insisting on
> discussing political and social issues that have nothing to do with
> the list, and this has also created long-term hostilities. Who can
> ever forget her post-9/11 diatribe. And then there are the endless
> quarrels and spats, so many that they are legend. And how many people
> knowledge and experience about alternative photography have left this
> list or refuse to engage with it because of her? Many, by my count. As
> for her whining that people have called her names and not been rebuked
> for doing so, I agree that this should stop. Ryuji should not have
> called her a cockroach. However, as for more recent comments that have
> referred to her rudeness, rancor, obnoxious attitude and sexist rants,
> that is not name calling in my opinion. It is, to be blunt, calling a
> spade a spade.
>
> Judy has been, by my estimation, at the center of 90% or more of the
> spats and quarrels on this list over the period of time that I have
> been involved with it. I for one am sick of wasting the list wasting
> so much of its energy and time with her agenda. So yes, I do call for
> Judy to limit her discussions to matters relating to alternative
> photography. And in particular I ask her to quite labeling people on
> this thread who disagree with her as sexists.
>
> And if she can not do so then I believe she should either remove
> herself from the list, or be removed from it by the list owner.
>
>
> Sandy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Thu, 10 Mar 2005, Dave Soemarko wrote:
>>
>>> As for subsequent posts, we can always blame someone, but that will
>>> get us nowhere. We can say Mr. Ptak shouldn't have blamed someone
>>> before checking the facts, or that Judy shouldn't have been so angry
>>> because the other person was new and didn't know the history, or
>>> that Sandy shouldn't have added his comment, or that Bob shouldn't
>>> say... etc. etc., but we also know things like this are not always
>>> logical. People have feeling, emotion and also preference and right
>>> to opinions....
>>
>>
>> Sure, Dave, but remember that some opinions are internally, not
>> externally caused... i.e., don't blame me for them....
>>
>> Still, I really appreciate your support (and support from offlist:
>> "Go Girl Go!", etc.), also your calm approach, but in your good
>> nature you overlook what I find shameful and a disgrace to the list
>> -- I'm called UGLY names by a few guys, a couple who (for internal
>> reasons) just pile on, and nobody, much less our "list minder," says
>> stop, that's ugly.. In fact he's another.
>
>>
>> List Minder Sandy King tells me "shut your mouth"!?!? If you said
>> that to your bratty teenager, they'd call it bad parenting. He says
>> it to a colleague ? (True, only a *female* colleague.) If I said the
>> equivalent to him, or any of the guys, they'd have coast-to-coast
>> coronaries. In fact the last time someone said something like that to
>> a GUY, if memory serves, he was put off the list...
>>
>> OK, I did call John Ptak a lurker. Not quite a compliment, but
>> clearly a fact (welcome to the list, John, introduce yourself -- you
>> may have acquired a following, tho not necessarily an elite), and, if
>> you think of it, exactly John's late arrival caused all the trouble.
>> I cannot, CANNOT believe that if he'd been here during Jewelia days
>> he'd have batted an eye at my mild, factual, thumbnail description.
>>
>> But, alas (behavioral scientists please note) denial is the most
>> powerful human faculty -- when the force is on, no reality can
>> penetrate. John Ptak, albeit, to his credit, remaining polite, says
>> "I CONTINUE TO HAVE NO AMBIVALENCE ABOUT IT [my portrait of Jewelia]
>> BEING DEROGATORY TO A PERSON AND A GROUP OF PEOPLE. (Emphasis added.)
>> Exactly what is derogatory is not explained, but he still finds "the
>> original remark offending."
>>
>> OK John, you asked for it. True, some men find any reference to male
>> sex change "offending" (in fact I'm not so comfortable with it
>> myself). But I think the explanation lies more with your inner Freud
>> than anything I said. (I mean we're talking *castration*!) In any
>> event, today I opened a real closet, a 180 year-old space off our
>> living room that makes Fibber McGee's closet look empty. (I realize
>> Fibber McGee's closet was from the very long ago, but so am I.)
>>
>> On top of the heap was a spiral-bound book, on the cover a
>> rosy-cheeked young man with white hair and mustache holds a casette
>> titled "Pecker." The caption says "dick head and his pecker"; the
>> book itself is titled "Untitled 4-part play with Artist's
>> presentations." It's marked,"for Judy" and signed "Jewelia Margaritta
>> Cameroon,'99." It's a transcript of Jewelia's performance at 1999
>> APIS. I'll excerpt a few lines in a separate document -- and THEN, I
>> DARE you to find my description anything but neutral !
>>
>> Meanwhile... Dave, are you still here? Do you remember the time,
>> maybe one of your first posts to the list, maybe 10 years ago... You
>> were writing about a generic photographer you referred to as "he."
>> Then you stopped and asked the list, "Do I have to say 'he or she'?"
>> I wrote, "you betcha," adding a short but brilliant explanation I
>> forget now -- and all hell broke loose. Luis Nadeau went positively
>> ballistic. One of the nicer things he called me (tho that was
>> offlist, I still loved it) was "cultural imperialist," meaning that I
>> was trying to make the world (including French Canadians!) follow the
>> USA's politically correct rules. (I wonder if they ever did...?)
>>
>> OK, stay tuned for some excerpts...
>>
>> best,
>>
>> Judy
>
>
Hey Sandy, I watch this forum...even though I don't often say much. I
have to say, Judy does come up as an agressive social commentator...took
me about three days of reading the forum to figure that one out. I
think there has been a lot of off topic stuff on this forum...but then I
figured everone knew each other well (and that I was an outsider) so I
chalked it up to that. I think you are on the mark...

Will
Received on Sat Mar 12 12:11:34 2005