U of S | Mailing List Archive | alt-photo-process-l | Re: brush vs tray size for gum

Re: brush vs tray size for gum

  • To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
  • Subject: Re: brush vs tray size for gum
  • From: Jack Brubaker <jack@jackbrubaker.com>
  • Date: Mon, 02 Oct 2006 16:53:01 -0400
  • Comments: "alt-photo-process mailing list"
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What size rod and what thread do you use?


> From: Sandy King <sanking@clemson.edu>
> Reply-To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 17:42:26 -0400
> To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
> Subject: RE: brush vs tray size for gum
> I also size papers for gum using 3-5% solutions and adding just a bit
> of Formaldehyde to the solution just before coating. I used to use a
> brush, but this caused a lot of bubbles. I switched to a threaded
> rod, which I heat before running it over the solution, and this
> completely eliminates the bubble problem because the warm rod
> dissipates the bubbles on contact. This is a technique that I adopted
> from coating carbon tissue.
> I am using more solution per given paper area than would be required
> for gum printing, but I think this should not matter in practice.
> Sandy
>> Carmen,
>> The largest print I've sized is 20x24. But, if I was going to do 22x30, I
>> would make a 22" glass coating rod and apply the sizing with the rod, then
>> use a brush to fix any areas that were either too thin or too thick. This
>> makes the process go very quickly so the gelatin doesn't have the chance to
>> harden. I would also use formaledehyde rather than glyoxal to prevent
>> yellowing.  When using a glass rod, first place a towel on the table
>> underneath the paper. This will greatly help keep the rod in good contact
>> with the paper, especially for larger prints. I would guess about 30 ml of
>> 3% gelatin with 18 drops of hardener would do it.
>> Kerik
>> www.kerik.com
>> Original Message:
>> -----------------
>> From: Carmen Lizardo carmenlizardo@yahoo.com
>> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 12:51:12 -0700 (PDT)
>> To: kerik@kerik.com, alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
>> Subject: RE: brush vs tray size for gum
>> Dear Chris and Kerik,
>> I would love to brush size my paper, specially because
>> use a full sheet of 22x30 inches when I print, and you
>> could only imaging how long that takes and how much
>> gelatin I need, but I can't seem to be able to get an
>> even coat, and mixing glyoxal and gelatin together is
>> out because I have to able to rise it off the gelatin
>> to prevent yellow stains.  Of course when I used Glut,
>> it was from black magic and that did not work. I also
>> felt it in ky eyes and throat and i not even the
>> sensitive type.  I am willing to try again, maybe with
>> a different glut?? Any pointers that you can give me
>> with the brushing??  I was thinking that it had to do
>> with the size of my paper. The gelatin gets hard
>> before I have time to cover the whole 22x30 sheet.
>> Thank you kindly,
>> Carmen
>> --- "kerik@kerik.com" <kerik@kerik.com> wrote:
>>> Chris,
>>> I agree that tray sizing is a lot of mess and hassle
>>> for no substantial
>>> benefit. Plus, why do the sizing in 2 steps when it
>>> can be done in one? I
>>> use either a glass rod (puddle pusher) and/or a
>>> brush.  I add the hardener
>>> (formaldehyde in my case) to the sizing just before
>>> sizing each print.
>>> Three drops of formaldehyde and 5 ml of 3% sizing
>>> easily does an 8x10 to
>>> 11x14 print.  In these tiny amounts, exposure to
>>> formaldehyde (or whatever
>>> hardener one uses) is minimal. I get very even
>>> sizing this way. A little
>>> bit of curl to the paper, but nothing that causes
>>> any problems.
>>> I tried B.M. glut and did not like the results. It
>>> resulted in slower
>>> development and considerably more staining than with
>>> formaldehyde.
>>> As for sizing with unhardened gelatin, that sounds
>>> like another in a long
>>> line of T King's erroneous hyperboles.
>>> Speaking of gum, I taught a gumover workshop in
>>> Philladelphia this past
>>> weekend for www.projectbasho.org. On sunday it was
>>> 80 degrees F and 82%
>>> humidity in the darkroom. That's the first time I've
>>> printed gum in
>>> sauna-like conditions and it created some hassles
>>> with very slow
>>> development and the need to intervene with some
>>> brute force measures
>>> (brushes, fingernails, sandpaper). Anybody have
>>> similar problems printing
>>> gum in high humidity?  The conditions seemed to
>>> cause problems with the
>>> sizing in particular because development was much
>>> closer to normal when I
>>> did a single coat of gum on unsized paper right out
>>> of the plastic bag. I'm
>>> speculating that the humidity either prevented the
>>> gelatin from hardening
>>> completely or it allowed the gum solution to soak
>>> into the sizing a bit
>>> rather than sitting on top. Despite the problems, I
>>> believe a good time was
>>> had by all. Although I always want things to go
>>> smoothly during the
>>> workshops, it's good for the students to learn how
>>> to deal with problems
>>> when they come up.
>>> Kerik
>>> www.kerik.com
>>> Original Message:
>>> -----------------
>>> From: Christina Z. Anderson zphoto@montana.net
>>> Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2006 08:08:22 -0600
>>> To: alt-photo-process-L@usask.ca
>>> Subject: brush vs tray size for gum
>>> Hi All,
>>> This weekend was time for sizing paper, and since I
>>> was doing small sizes
>>> (11x14's) I decided to tray size instead of brush
>>> size to see if it had any
>>> added benefits to brush sizing.
>>> I was sizing with gelatin glutaraldehyde as usual.
>>> I did use a piece of it
>>> right away, same day, and had no problem with the
>>> sizing not being hardened
>>> and producing "magenta squares" as did Carmen.
>>> However, I was using glut
>>> that I bought from a medical supply house (now
>>> available at the
>>> Photographer's Formulary) and not Black Magic.  The
>>> gelatin on my paper was
>>> not slimy in any way so I know it was hardened. I am
>>> still not sure why
>>> Carmen got that problem, and am wondering about the
>>> suitability of Black
>>> Magic, therefore, with its added sulfite. It sounds
>>> like the same result I
>>> had when I tried Terry King's advice to use
>>> unhardened gelatin and got
>>> black
>>> squares.
>>> With tray sizing and cautions with glut, I gelatin
>>> sized the paper first,
>>> and then the next day I soaked the sized paper
>>> OUTSIDE in a tray of 50ml
>>> glut to a gallon of water.  That worked well, but I
>>> would only tray size if
>>> the hardening part could be done outside to minimize
>>> fumes produced by the
>>> surface area of a whole tray of hardener, whatever
>>> type--glut, gly,
>>> formaldehyde. (When I brush size I keep the solution
>>> capped inside a
>>> thermos
>>> and pour out a cup at once.) The gelatin paper went
>>> in "slimy" feeling, and
>>> went out unslimy.
>>> The paper works fine but I learned a couple things:
>>> paper tray sized with
>>> gelatin will sink to the bottom, not float as does
>>> brush sized paper
>>> (except
>>> Arches) so if I am going to leave the paper soaking
>>> for a while it needs to
>>> be face up. I learned that the hard way. Back to
>>> floaters and sinkers, Mark.
>>> The paper does curl less than brush sized, but it
>>> doesn't seem worth the
>>> added trouble of trays. This is the only benefit I
>>> can see.  Oh, maybe more
>>> evenness of sizing?  I don't know this one
>>> yet...will have to print all
>>> papers.
>>> My husband set up an ingenious "clothesline" for
>>> me--a rung ladder on its
>>> side has plenty of hanger-ready rungs.
>>> I learned another thing the hard way:  I printed 4
>>> prints on the unsized
>>> but
>>> shrunk paper with a cyanotype layer, put the paper
>>> through the hot gelatin
>>> sizing process and didn't THINK that the
>>> 140-whatever degree gelatin would
>>> shrink the paper even more and make registration a
>>> B---H but you bet it
>>> did--warped and shrunk. Luckily only 4 prints
>>> ruined. DUH. Or, as Clay
>>> says,
>>> DOH.
>>> The bottom line is that brush sizing is sooo much
>>> easier and works well and
>>> uses way less gelatin--I sized 24 11x14s with a a
>>> liter of 3%, and normally
>>> I can do that many 16x20s with the same. I don't
>>> think even with small
>>> sizes
>>> I would tray size...
>>> That's all my truly exciting weekend experience!
>>> Chris
>>> CZAphotography.com
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