RE: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium,was RE: "New" Paper for Pt/Pd (and other iron processes, too)
Actually, humidity can be a huge factor in Ziatype. I learned this the hard way early on when I was printing a ziatype of a long 7x17 inch negative. I made the mistake of opening up the same side of the split back printing frame each time I checked the exposure, which inadvertently allowed one half of the print to dry out a little more while the unchecked side sat nice and cozy and humid between the glass and the back of the frame. This gave a whole new meaning to the term 'split tone', because I ended up with a print which had a left side that was cool purplish black and the right side a warm toasty brown. I'm sure someone will immediately sieze on this observation to create a way of controlling this effect so that different parts of a print can be different tones. > Eric, > > I was speaking very generally about color. I see what you're saying about > varying methods, etc. > > But the methods (based on what I've read, at least) for controlling warm > vs. cool are fundamentally different between the Ware/Malde and ziatype > processes. As far as I understand it, Ware/Malde in its basic procedure > goes warm by being left out before exposure (right?) or adjusting the > humidity or both, whereas for ziatype sodium tungstate is added to the > solution. Humidity doesn't seem to be as much of a factor in color for > ziatype. Of course, I could be entirely off-base here too... :) > > So I guess what it boils down to is that I was looking for a comparison of > color between letting the paper sit after coating and/or changing > humidity, and adding sodium tungstate. > > > Camden Hardy > > camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net > http://www.hardyphotography.net > > > > On Thu, November 30, 2006 9:29 pm, Eric Neilsen wrote: >> Camden, Consider me a patron of the total platinum/palladium process. I >> don't draw clear distinctions between methods to such a degree as to say >> that there are systems so much as there are starting points. >> >> There has been over the years much confusion spread as to what is the >> intention of certain methods. I was trying to see if you would define >> what >> you saw as Ware/Malde "system". Please don't take it as a debate but >> more >> of >> an inquiry. >> >> Some have made it seem as if the Ware/Malde information is strict and >> must >> be this tightly controlled environment, and the Ziatype is less >> restrictive. >> Far too often printers will present their information as if everyone >> does >> it >> "this" way. When there are so many ways to get the solution on to the >> paper, >> just what is meant by the X system is really a starting point only to >> those >> that are in the same room at the same time. I am just trying to get you >> to >> see that the options are far and wide. It may be easy to say the X >> system, >> but there still must be explanation as to what the current version of X >> is? >> Or what it perceived to be. My interpretation of one system may be >> different >> enough to influence the color of the prints to a point where they don't >> match your prints using the "same" system. >> >> >> >> Eric Neilsen Photography >> 4101 Commerce Street >> Suite 9 >> Dallas, TX 75226 >> http://e.neilsen.home.att.net >> http://ericneilsenphotography.com >> Skype ejprinter >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Camden Hardy [mailto:camden@hardyphotography.net] >>> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 9:23 PM >>> To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca >>> Subject: RE: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium, was RE: "New" Paper for >>> Pt/Pd (and other iron processes, too) >>> >>> Eric, >>> >>> I think we have a misunderstanding going here. I didn't want to get >>> into >>> a philosophical debate about where to draw the line between processes; >>> I >>> merely used the names to distinguish the two methods. I was only >>> asking >>> for a visual color comparison between Ware/Malde POP and ziatype in >>> their >>> "warm" spectrums...nothing too complicated. >>> >>> >>> Camden Hardy >>> >>> camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net >>> http://www.hardyphotography.net >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, November 30, 2006 4:18 pm, EJN Photo wrote: >>> > Camden, I have not done a reflective reading for them to be able to >>> give >>> > you >>> > color density reading. And as far as strict systems, I haven't work >>> to >>> the >>> > exact standards that you might apply to them. If I use ammonium >>> palladium >>> > is >>> > that a traditional print? Or if I substitute sodium in the Ware/Malde >>> > system, am I no longer making a Ware/Malde print? I don't think so. >>> > >>> > Clay, did you make your prints with the ammonium platinum? If so, >>> where >>> > are >>> > you getting it? I was able to pick some up from Englehard, but that >>> was >>> > only >>> > a single order and it is all gone now. >>> > >>> > My AFO prints, whether you call them Ware/Malde or EJ_o_types, do >>> show >>> a >>> > bit >>> > more reddish quality. I can however get close to that with >>> traditional >>> > solution and sodium citrate developer. I have not beat all those >>> possible >>> > paths. >>> > >>> > >>> > Eric Neilsen Photography >>> > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 >>> > Dallas, TX 75226 >>> > 214-827-8301 >>> > http://ericneilsenphotography.com >>> > >>> > Skype : ejprinter> -----Original Message----- >>> >> From: Camden Hardy [mailto:camden@hardyphotography.net] >>> >> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 4:29 PM >>> >> To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca >>> >> Subject: RE: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium, was RE: "New" >>> >> Paper for Pt/Pd (and other iron processes, too) >>> >> >>> >> > Camden, The Ware/Malde system should not lead you to a >>> >> specific color, nor >>> >> > does the Ziatype or Traditional DOP. They are all capable of >>> >> producing >>> >> > prints of various colors. >>> >> >>> >> I'm aware that both processes can be adjusted to create a warm >>> >> or cool >>> >> tone. The articles I've read about each all had charts showing >>> >> the >>> >> factors that can shift from a cool to a warm tone. >>> >> >>> >> I asked the question because the term "warm" is fairly vague. >>> >> Sepia and >>> >> thiourea are both "warm" toners, but thiourea is more toward >>> >> the yellow >>> >> end. "Warm" could mean red, yellow, pink (just kidding), etc. >>> >> I'm >>> >> wondering whether one process is capable of producing warm >>> >> colors that the >>> >> other can't. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> Camden Hardy >>> >> >>> >> camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net >>> >> http://www.hardyphotography.net >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> > I think that you'd be better thinking of the reasons that any >>> >> pt/pd prints >>> >> > changes color and one of the biggest contributors to that is >>> >> humidity or >>> >> > lack thereof. There are big gereralizations that can be made >>> >> about PT, PD >>> >> > and humidity. There are also several very good ways to >>> >> develop these >>> >> > images >>> >> > that influence color. >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > Eric Neilsen Photography >>> >> > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 >>> >> > Dallas, TX 75226 >>> >> > 214-827-8301 >>> >> > http://ericneilsenphotography.com >>> >> > >>> >> > Skype : ejprinter> -----Original Message----- >>> >> >> From: Sandy King [mailto:sanking@clemson.edu] >>> >> >> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 12:30 PM >>> >> >> To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca >>> >> >> Subject: Re: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium, was RE: "New" >>> >> >> Paper for Pt/Pd (and other iron processes, too) >>> >> >> >>> >> >> I have not done anything with ziatype other than >>> >> >> print with straight FAO plus lithium palladium >>> >> >> chloride. >>> >> >> >>> >> >> Sandy >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> At 8:21 AM -0700 11/30/06, Camden Hardy wrote: >>> >> >> >Sandy, >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> >Have you tried adding sodium tungstate to the ziatype >>> >> emulsion >>> >> >> to get >>> >> >> >warmer tones? >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> >If so, how does the color compare to that of the Ware/Malde >>> >> >> POP process? >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> >Camden Hardy >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> >camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net >>> >> >> >http://www.hardyphotography.net >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> > >>> >> >> >On Wed, November 29, 2006 10:37 pm, Sandy King wrote: >>> >> >> >> Hi Loris, >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> I always control temperature at around 70F, and >>> >> >> >> within certain limits I can also control RH. >>> >> >> >> However, for various reasons it is much easier to >>> >> >> >> control RH in the 50-60% range in my working room >>> >> >> >> than at the extremes. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> At 55% RH I really like the results I get with >>> >> >> >> the Ware/Malde POP palladium process. Dmax is >>> >> >> >> excellent and the color is a nice warm black. In >>> >> >> >> some ways nicer than with DOP palladium. But if >>> >> >> >> the RH changes by as much as 5% there will be a >>> >> >> >> chance in image color, warmer going down, more >>> >> >> >> neutral going up. But this is ok, since I have >>> >> >> >> excellent control of RH in the 50-60% range. >>> >> >> >> However, the color shift with RH change is one of >>> >> >> >> the great attractions of the Ware/Malde method. >>> >> >> >> And with dichromate contrast control, which Mike >>> >> >> >> chose not to exploit, you can get contrast >>> >> >> >> control *and* the color you want. And without the >>> >> >> >> cessium salt needed with Ziatype. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> However, if the type of image one likes is very >>> >> >> >> neutral black, Ziatype with the lithium salt by >>> >> >> >> itself gives great results. I would find it very >>> >> >> >> difficult to make this color with Ware/Malde >>> >> >> >> because a RH of 80% or so would be almost >>> >> >> >> impossible to obtain in my working environment. >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> Sandy >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> At 8:16 PM +0200 11/29/06, Loris Medici wrote: >>> >> >> >>>I see. Agree with you on the fact that making identical >>> >> >> looking prints >>> >> >> >>> with >>> >> >> >>>POP version (at least Ziatype) can be hard... But, that >>> >> >> shouldn't that >>> >> >> >>> much >>> >> >> >>>hard to you? I mean you have a lightsource with >>> >> integrator, >>> >> >> you can >>> >> >> >>> control >>> >> >> >>>humidity and temperature in your working area, you're >>> >> >> accustomed to be >>> >> >> >>>consistent in coating + drying the paper (in fact, you're >>> >> a >>> >> >> master carbon >>> >> >> >>>printer!). Do you still find hard to get consistent / >>> >> close >>> >> >> results? >>> >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>>About compression in the shadows: I cheat, I artificially >>> >> >> increase >>> >> >> >>> contrast >>> >> >> >>>in the shadows. When you have problems - even if you have >>> >> a >>> >> >> perfect >>> >> >> >>>calibration - some extra contrast boost in the shadows >>> >> (it >>> >> >> should look >>> >> >> >>>almost weird on your screen) will do good in that >>> >> aspect... >>> >> >> The more >>> >> >> >>> texture >>> >> >> >>>you have in the shadows, the less you have this "looks >>> >> dull" >>> >> >> problem. Low >>> >> >> >>>key images with delicate tonal transitions make another >>> >> >> problem - I think >>> >> >> >>>Pt/Pd (or any other process which results a matte print) >>> >> is >>> >> >> not the best >>> >> >> >>>choice for this type of imagery... Carbon is, in my >>> >> >> understanding. >>> >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>>Regards, >>> >> >> >>>Loris. >>> >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>>-----Original Message----- >>> >> >> >>>From: Sandy King [mailto:sanking@clemson.edu] >>> >> >> >>>Sent: 29 Kas¾m 2006 Çars¸amba 18:16 >>> >> >> >>>To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca >>> >> >> >>>Subject: RE: "New" Paper for Pt/Pd (and other iron >>> >> >> processes, too) >>> >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>>What I meant by hard to beat is the consistency of DOP, >>> >> i.e. >>> >> >> the >>> >> >> >>> capability >>> >> >> >>>of making multiple prints, all with the same density and >>> >> >> color, without >>> >> >> >>>worrying about changes in exposure. >>> >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>>FAO with the ammonium salt gives beautiful chocolate >>> >> colors, >>> >> >> if printing >>> >> >> >>> at >>> >> >> >>>low humidity. >>> >> >> >>>But you need some type of contrast control if working >>> >> with >>> >> >> negatives of >>> >> >> >>> DR >>> >> >> >>>of 1.8 or so intended for DOP palladium. You can actually >>> >> >> get it by >>> >> >> >>> adding a >>> >> >> >>>few drops of dichromate to the sensitizer, as you do with >>> >> >> ziatype. There >>> >> >> >>> is >>> >> >> >>>no down side to this as far as I can see, and the ability >>> >> to >>> >> >> control >>> >> >> >>>contrast this way makes the Ware/Malde process quite >>> >> >> flexible. >>> >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>>FAO with the lithium salt (ziatype) also works well, >>> >> though >>> >> >> I have only >>> >> >> >>> made >>> >> >> >>>a few prints with it. But for persons who like nice >>> >> neutral >>> >> >> black prints >>> >> >> > >>this is the way to go with palladium. >>> >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>>But printing with Pt./Pd. drives me crazy at times. The >>> >> >> prints always >>> >> >> >>> have >>> >> >> >>>this glorious look when they are washing, and when you >>> >> hang >>> >> >> them up to >>> >> >> >>> dry. >>> >> >> >>>Then you come back the next morning when they are dry and >>> >> >> they look dull. >>> >> >> >>> By >>> >> >> >>>contrast, carbon prints improve in look as they dry. I do >>> >> >> find that a >>> >> >> >>> couple >>> >> >> >>>of coats of some kind of clear gloss lacquer or varnish >>> >> >> recovers some of >>> >> >> >>> the >>> >> >> >>>wet look, but not all of it. >>> >> >> >>> >>> >> >> >>>Sandy >>> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> >> >> >> >> > >
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