RE: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium,was RE: "New" Paper for Pt/Pd (and other iron processes, too)
Interesting. I read somewhere (I was going to cite it, but alas I can't find the source...maybe I dreamt it) that ziatype, in its basic form, is fairly constant between 20%-80% RH. Another look at the official ziatype article on the B&S website (http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/techart.php) showed me that 50%-65% RH is recommended. That is kind of an interesting idea, "split-toning" with different humidity. Maybe one of these days I'll play around with it. :) Which side was the purple, the dry or humid side? Camden Hardy camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net http://www.hardyphotography.net On Fri, December 1, 2006 11:33 am, wcharmon@wt.net wrote: > Actually, humidity can be a huge factor in Ziatype. I learned this the > hard way early on when I was printing a ziatype of a long 7x17 inch > negative. I made the mistake of opening up the same side of the split back > printing frame each time I checked the exposure, which inadvertently > allowed one half of the print to dry out a little more while the unchecked > side sat nice and cozy and humid between the glass and the back of the > frame. This gave a whole new meaning to the term 'split tone', because I > ended up with a print which had a left side that was cool purplish black > and the right side a warm toasty brown. I'm sure someone will immediately > sieze on this observation to create a way of controlling this effect so > that different parts of a print can be different tones. > >> Eric, >> >> I was speaking very generally about color. I see what you're saying >> about >> varying methods, etc. >> >> But the methods (based on what I've read, at least) for controlling warm >> vs. cool are fundamentally different between the Ware/Malde and ziatype >> processes. As far as I understand it, Ware/Malde in its basic procedure >> goes warm by being left out before exposure (right?) or adjusting the >> humidity or both, whereas for ziatype sodium tungstate is added to the >> solution. Humidity doesn't seem to be as much of a factor in color for >> ziatype. Of course, I could be entirely off-base here too... :) >> >> So I guess what it boils down to is that I was looking for a comparison >> of >> color between letting the paper sit after coating and/or changing >> humidity, and adding sodium tungstate. >> >> >> Camden Hardy >> >> camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net >> http://www.hardyphotography.net >> >> >> >> On Thu, November 30, 2006 9:29 pm, Eric Neilsen wrote: >>> Camden, Consider me a patron of the total platinum/palladium process. I >>> don't draw clear distinctions between methods to such a degree as to >>> say >>> that there are systems so much as there are starting points. >>> >>> There has been over the years much confusion spread as to what is the >>> intention of certain methods. I was trying to see if you would define >>> what >>> you saw as Ware/Malde "system". Please don't take it as a debate but >>> more >>> of >>> an inquiry. >>> >>> Some have made it seem as if the Ware/Malde information is strict and >>> must >>> be this tightly controlled environment, and the Ziatype is less >>> restrictive. >>> Far too often printers will present their information as if everyone >>> does >>> it >>> "this" way. When there are so many ways to get the solution on to the >>> paper, >>> just what is meant by the X system is really a starting point only to >>> those >>> that are in the same room at the same time. I am just trying to get you >>> to >>> see that the options are far and wide. It may be easy to say the X >>> system, >>> but there still must be explanation as to what the current version of X >>> is? >>> Or what it perceived to be. My interpretation of one system may be >>> different >>> enough to influence the color of the prints to a point where they don't >>> match your prints using the "same" system. >>> >>> >>> >>> Eric Neilsen Photography >>> 4101 Commerce Street >>> Suite 9 >>> Dallas, TX 75226 >>> http://e.neilsen.home.att.net >>> http://ericneilsenphotography.com >>> Skype ejprinter >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Camden Hardy [mailto:camden@hardyphotography.net] >>>> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 9:23 PM >>>> To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca >>>> Subject: RE: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium, was RE: "New" Paper for >>>> Pt/Pd (and other iron processes, too) >>>> >>>> Eric, >>>> >>>> I think we have a misunderstanding going here. I didn't want to get >>>> into >>>> a philosophical debate about where to draw the line between processes; >>>> I >>>> merely used the names to distinguish the two methods. I was only >>>> asking >>>> for a visual color comparison between Ware/Malde POP and ziatype in >>>> their >>>> "warm" spectrums...nothing too complicated. >>>> >>>> >>>> Camden Hardy >>>> >>>> camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net >>>> http://www.hardyphotography.net >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, November 30, 2006 4:18 pm, EJN Photo wrote: >>>> > Camden, I have not done a reflective reading for them to be able to >>>> give >>>> > you >>>> > color density reading. And as far as strict systems, I haven't work >>>> to >>>> the >>>> > exact standards that you might apply to them. If I use ammonium >>>> palladium >>>> > is >>>> > that a traditional print? Or if I substitute sodium in the >>>> Ware/Malde >>>> > system, am I no longer making a Ware/Malde print? I don't think so. >>>> > >>>> > Clay, did you make your prints with the ammonium platinum? If so, >>>> where >>>> > are >>>> > you getting it? I was able to pick some up from Englehard, but that >>>> was >>>> > only >>>> > a single order and it is all gone now. >>>> > >>>> > My AFO prints, whether you call them Ware/Malde or EJ_o_types, do >>>> show >>>> a >>>> > bit >>>> > more reddish quality. I can however get close to that with >>>> traditional >>>> > solution and sodium citrate developer. I have not beat all those >>>> possible >>>> > paths. >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > Eric Neilsen Photography >>>> > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 >>>> > Dallas, TX 75226 >>>> > 214-827-8301 >>>> > http://ericneilsenphotography.com >>>> > >>>> > Skype : ejprinter> -----Original Message----- >>>> >> From: Camden Hardy [mailto:camden@hardyphotography.net] >>>> >> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 4:29 PM >>>> >> To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca >>>> >> Subject: RE: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium, was RE: "New" >>>> >> Paper for Pt/Pd (and other iron processes, too) >>>> >> >>>> >> > Camden, The Ware/Malde system should not lead you to a >>>> >> specific color, nor >>>> >> > does the Ziatype or Traditional DOP. They are all capable of >>>> >> producing >>>> >> > prints of various colors. >>>> >> >>>> >> I'm aware that both processes can be adjusted to create a warm >>>> >> or cool >>>> >> tone. The articles I've read about each all had charts showing >>>> >> the >>>> >> factors that can shift from a cool to a warm tone. >>>> >> >>>> >> I asked the question because the term "warm" is fairly vague. >>>> >> Sepia and >>>> >> thiourea are both "warm" toners, but thiourea is more toward >>>> >> the yellow >>>> >> end. "Warm" could mean red, yellow, pink (just kidding), etc. >>>> >> I'm >>>> >> wondering whether one process is capable of producing warm >>>> >> colors that the >>>> >> other can't. >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> Camden Hardy >>>> >> >>>> >> camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net >>>> >> http://www.hardyphotography.net >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> > I think that you'd be better thinking of the reasons that any >>>> >> pt/pd prints >>>> >> > changes color and one of the biggest contributors to that is >>>> >> humidity or >>>> >> > lack thereof. There are big gereralizations that can be made >>>> >> about PT, PD >>>> >> > and humidity. There are also several very good ways to >>>> >> develop these >>>> >> > images >>>> >> > that influence color. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Eric Neilsen Photography >>>> >> > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 >>>> >> > Dallas, TX 75226 >>>> >> > 214-827-8301 >>>> >> > http://ericneilsenphotography.com >>>> >> > >>>> >> > Skype : ejprinter> -----Original Message----- >>>> >> >> From: Sandy King [mailto:sanking@clemson.edu] >>>> >> >> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 12:30 PM >>>> >> >> To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca >>>> >> >> Subject: Re: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium, was RE: "New" >>>> >> >> Paper for Pt/Pd (and other iron processes, too) >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> I have not done anything with ziatype other than >>>> >> >> print with straight FAO plus lithium palladium >>>> >> >> chloride. >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> Sandy >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> At 8:21 AM -0700 11/30/06, Camden Hardy wrote: >>>> >> >> >Sandy, >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> >Have you tried adding sodium tungstate to the ziatype >>>> >> emulsion >>>> >> >> to get >>>> >> >> >warmer tones? >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> >If so, how does the color compare to that of the Ware/Malde >>>> >> >> POP process? >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> >Camden Hardy >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> >camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net >>>> >> >> >http://www.hardyphotography.net >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> > >>>> >> >> >On Wed, November 29, 2006 10:37 pm, Sandy King wrote: >>>> >> >> >> Hi Loris, >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> I always control temperature at around 70F, and >>>> >> >> >> within certain limits I can also control RH. >>>> >> >> >> However, for various reasons it is much easier to >>>> >> >> >> control RH in the 50-60% range in my working room >>>> >> >> >> than at the extremes. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> At 55% RH I really like the results I get with >>>> >> >> >> the Ware/Malde POP palladium process. Dmax is >>>> >> >> >> excellent and the color is a nice warm black. In >>>> >> >> >> some ways nicer than with DOP palladium. But if >>>> >> >> >> the RH changes by as much as 5% there will be a >>>> >> >> >> chance in image color, warmer going down, more >>>> >> >> >> neutral going up. But this is ok, since I have >>>> >> >> >> excellent control of RH in the 50-60% range. >>>> >> >> >> However, the color shift with RH change is one of >>>> >> >> >> the great attractions of the Ware/Malde method. >>>> >> >> >> And with dichromate contrast control, which Mike >>>> >> >> >> chose not to exploit, you can get contrast >>>> >> >> >> control *and* the color you want. And without the >>>> >> >> >> cessium salt needed with Ziatype. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> However, if the type of image one likes is very >>>> >> >> >> neutral black, Ziatype with the lithium salt by >>>> >> >> >> itself gives great results. I would find it very >>>> >> >> >> difficult to make this color with Ware/Malde >>>> >> >> >> because a RH of 80% or so would be almost >>>> >> >> >> impossible to obtain in my working environment. >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> Sandy >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> At 8:16 PM +0200 11/29/06, Loris Medici wrote: >>>> >> >> >>>I see. Agree with you on the fact that making identical >>>> >> >> looking prints >>>> >> >> >>> with >>>> >> >> >>>POP version (at least Ziatype) can be hard... But, that >>>> >> >> shouldn't that >>>> >> >> >>> much >>>> >> >> >>>hard to you? I mean you have a lightsource with >>>> >> integrator, >>>> >> >> you can >>>> >> >> >>> control >>>> >> >> >>>humidity and temperature in your working area, you're >>>> >> >> accustomed to be >>>> >> >> >>>consistent in coating + drying the paper (in fact, you're >>>> >> a >>>> >> >> master carbon >>>> >> >> >>>printer!). Do you still find hard to get consistent / >>>> >> close >>>> >> >> results? >>>> >> >> >>> >>>> >> >> >>>About compression in the shadows: I cheat, I artificially >>>> >> >> increase >>>> >> >> >>> contrast >>>> >> >> >>>in the shadows. When you have problems - even if you have >>>> >> a >>>> >> >> perfect >>>> >> >> >>>calibration - some extra contrast boost in the shadows >>>> >> (it >>>> >> >> should look >>>> >> >> >>>almost weird on your screen) will do good in that >>>> >> aspect... >>>> >> >> The more >>>> >> >> >>> texture >>>> >> >> >>>you have in the shadows, the less you have this "looks >>>> >> dull" >>>> >> >> problem. Low >>>> >> >> >>>key images with delicate tonal transitions make another >>>> >> >> problem - I think >>>> >> >> >>>Pt/Pd (or any other process which results a matte print) >>>> >> is >>>> >> >> not the best >>>> >> >> >>>choice for this type of imagery... Carbon is, in my >>>> >> >> understanding. >>>> >> >> >>> >>>> >> >> >>>Regards, >>>> >> >> >>>Loris. >>>> >> >> >>> >>>> >> >> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>> >> >> >>>From: Sandy King [mailto:sanking@clemson.edu] >>>> >> >> >>>Sent: 29 Kas¾m 2006 Çars¸amba 18:16 >>>> >> >> >>>To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca >>>> >> >> >>>Subject: RE: "New" Paper for Pt/Pd (and other iron >>>> >> >> processes, too) >>>> >> >> >>> >>>> >> >> >>> >>>> >> >> >>>What I meant by hard to beat is the consistency of DOP, >>>> >> i.e. >>>> >> >> the >>>> >> >> >>> capability >>>> >> >> >>>of making multiple prints, all with the same density and >>>> >> >> color, without >>>> >> >> >>>worrying about changes in exposure. >>>> >> >> >>> >>>> >> >> >>>FAO with the ammonium salt gives beautiful chocolate >>>> >> colors, >>>> >> >> if printing >>>> >> >> >>> at >>>> >> >> >>>low humidity. >>>> >> >> >>>But you need some type of contrast control if working >>>> >> with >>>> >> >> negatives of >>>> >> >> >>> DR >>>> >> >> >>>of 1.8 or so intended for DOP palladium. You can actually >>>> >> >> get it by >>>> >> >> >>> adding a >>>> >> >> >>>few drops of dichromate to the sensitizer, as you do with >>>> >> >> ziatype. There >>>> >> >> >>> is >>>> >> >> >>>no down side to this as far as I can see, and the ability >>>> >> to >>>> >> >> control >>>> >> >> >>>contrast this way makes the Ware/Malde process quite >>>> >> >> flexible. >>>> >> >> >>> >>>> >> >> >>>FAO with the lithium salt (ziatype) also works well, >>>> >> though >>>> >> >> I have only >>>> >> >> >>> made >>>> >> >> >>>a few prints with it. But for persons who like nice >>>> >> neutral >>>> >> >> black prints >>>> >> >> > >>this is the way to go with palladium. >>>> >> >> >>> >>>> >> >> >>>But printing with Pt./Pd. drives me crazy at times. The >>>> >> >> prints always >>>> >> >> >>> have >>>> >> >> >>>this glorious look when they are washing, and when you >>>> >> hang >>>> >> >> them up to >>>> >> >> >>> dry. >>>> >> >> >>>Then you come back the next morning when they are dry and >>>> >> >> they look dull. >>>> >> >> >>> By >>>> >> >> >>>contrast, carbon prints improve in look as they dry. I do >>>> >> >> find that a >>>> >> >> >>> couple >>>> >> >> >>>of coats of some kind of clear gloss lacquer or varnish >>>> >> >> recovers some of >>>> >> >> >>> the >>>> >> >> >>>wet look, but not all of it. >>>> >> >> >>> >>>> >> >> >>>Sandy >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> >> >> >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > >
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