RE: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium,was RE: "New" Paper for Pt/Pd (and other iron processes, too)

[EJN Photo <ejnphoto@sbcglobal.net>]

Camden, What resources have you read regarding what constitutes a ziatype
and what a Ware/Malde? 

Humidity is a hugh part of ALL palladium printing no matter what you call
it. The other components of these prints also have impact on color and these
are not restricted to a particular method.  The AFO family processes that
include Zia, Ware/Malde, Tice are POP. 

When you say, "being left out" for the W/M where do you understand that you
leave it? 

Is a Ziatype no longer a Ziatype if you print drier? Or is it only a Ziatype
if you use sodium tungstate? Lithium?  I wonder where you all start defining
these "methods"? 



Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
214-827-8301
http://ericneilsenphotography.com
 
Skype : ejprinter> -----Original Message-----


> From: Camden Hardy [mailto:camden@hardyphotography.net]
> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 12:24 PM
> To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
> Subject: RE: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium, was RE: "New"
> Paper for Pt/Pd (and other iron processes, too)
> 
> Eric,
> 
> I was speaking very generally about color.  I see what you're
> saying about
> varying methods, etc.
> 
> But the methods (based on what I've read, at least) for
> controlling warm
> vs. cool are fundamentally different between the Ware/Malde and
> ziatype
> processes.  As far as I understand it, Ware/Malde in its basic
> procedure
> goes warm by being left out before exposure (right?) or
> adjusting the
> humidity or both, whereas for ziatype sodium tungstate is added
> to the
> solution.  Humidity doesn't seem to be as much of a factor in
> color for
> ziatype.  Of course, I could be entirely off-base here too...
> :)
> 
> So I guess what it boils down to is that I was looking for a
> comparison of
> color between letting the paper sit after coating and/or
> changing
> humidity, and adding sodium tungstate.
> 
> 
> Camden Hardy
> 
> camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net
> http://www.hardyphotography.net
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, November 30, 2006 9:29 pm, Eric Neilsen wrote:
> > Camden, Consider me a patron of the total platinum/palladium
> process. I
> > don't draw clear distinctions between methods to such a
> degree as to say
> > that there are systems so much as there are starting points.
> >
> > There has been over the years much confusion spread as to
> what is the
> > intention of certain methods. I was trying to see if you
> would define what
> > you saw as Ware/Malde "system". Please don't take it as a
> debate but more
> > of
> > an inquiry.
> >
> > Some have made it seem as if the Ware/Malde information is
> strict and must
> > be this tightly controlled environment, and the Ziatype is
> less
> > restrictive.
> > Far too often printers will present their information as if
> everyone does
> > it
> > "this" way. When there are so many ways to get the solution
> on to the
> > paper,
> > just what is meant by the X system is really a starting point
> only to
> > those
> > that are in the same room at the same time. I am just trying
> to get you to
> > see that the options are far and wide. It may be easy to say
> the X system,
> > but there still must be explanation as to what the current
> version of X
> > is?
> > Or what it perceived to be. My interpretation of one system
> may be
> > different
> > enough to influence the color of the prints to a point where
> they don't
> > match your prints using the "same" system.
> >
> >
> >
> > Eric Neilsen Photography
> > 4101 Commerce Street
> > Suite 9
> > Dallas, TX 75226
> > http://e.neilsen.home.att.net
> > http://ericneilsenphotography.com
> > Skype ejprinter
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Camden Hardy [mailto:camden@hardyphotography.net]
> >> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 9:23 PM
> >> To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
> >> Subject: RE: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium, was RE: "New"
> Paper for
> >> Pt/Pd (and other iron processes, too)
> >>
> >> Eric,
> >>
> >> I think we have a misunderstanding going here.  I didn't
> want to get
> >> into
> >> a philosophical debate about where to draw the line between
> processes; I
> >> merely used the names to distinguish the two methods.  I was
> only asking
> >> for a visual color comparison between Ware/Malde POP and
> ziatype in
> >> their
> >> "warm" spectrums...nothing too complicated.
> >>
> >>
> >> Camden Hardy
> >>
> >> camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net
> >> http://www.hardyphotography.net
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, November 30, 2006 4:18 pm, EJN Photo wrote:
> >> > Camden, I have not done a reflective reading for them to
> be able to
> >> give
> >> > you
> >> > color density reading. And as far as strict systems, I
> haven't work to
> >> the
> >> > exact standards that you might apply to them. If I use
> ammonium
> >> palladium
> >> > is
> >> > that a traditional print? Or if I substitute sodium in the
> Ware/Malde
> >> > system, am I no longer making a Ware/Malde print? I don't
> think so.
> >> >
> >> > Clay, did you make your prints with the ammonium platinum?
> If so,
> >> where
> >> > are
> >> > you getting it? I was able to pick some up from Englehard,
> but that
> >> was
> >> > only
> >> > a single order and it is all gone now.
> >> >
> >> > My AFO prints, whether you call them Ware/Malde or
> EJ_o_types, do show
> >> a
> >> > bit
> >> > more reddish quality. I can however get close to that with
> traditional
> >> > solution and sodium citrate developer. I have not beat all
> those
> >> possible
> >> > paths.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Eric Neilsen Photography
> >> > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> >> > Dallas, TX 75226
> >> > 214-827-8301
> >> > http://ericneilsenphotography.com
> >> >
> >> > Skype : ejprinter> -----Original Message-----
> >> >> From: Camden Hardy [mailto:camden@hardyphotography.net]
> >> >> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 4:29 PM
> >> >> To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
> >> >> Subject: RE: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium, was RE:
> "New"
> >> >> Paper for Pt/Pd (and other iron processes, too)
> >> >>
> >> >> > Camden, The Ware/Malde system should not lead you to a
> >> >> specific color, nor
> >> >> > does the Ziatype or Traditional DOP. They are all
> capable of
> >> >> producing
> >> >> > prints of various colors.
> >> >>
> >> >> I'm aware that both processes can be adjusted to create a
> warm
> >> >> or cool
> >> >> tone.  The articles I've read about each all had charts
> showing
> >> >> the
> >> >> factors that can shift from a cool to a warm tone.
> >> >>
> >> >> I asked the question because the term "warm" is fairly
> vague.
> >> >> Sepia and
> >> >> thiourea are both "warm" toners, but thiourea is more
> toward
> >> >> the yellow
> >> >> end.  "Warm" could mean red, yellow, pink (just kidding),
> etc.
> >> >> I'm
> >> >> wondering whether one process is capable of producing
> warm
> >> >> colors that the
> >> >> other can't.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Camden Hardy
> >> >>
> >> >> camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net
> >> >> http://www.hardyphotography.net
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > I think that you'd be better thinking of the reasons
> that any
> >> >> pt/pd prints
> >> >> > changes color and one of the biggest contributors to
> that is
> >> >> humidity or
> >> >> > lack thereof. There are big gereralizations that can be
> made
> >> >> about PT, PD
> >> >> > and humidity. There are also several very good ways to
> >> >> develop these
> >> >> > images
> >> >> > that influence color.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Eric Neilsen Photography
> >> >> > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
> >> >> > Dallas, TX 75226
> >> >> > 214-827-8301
> >> >> > http://ericneilsenphotography.com
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Skype : ejprinter> -----Original Message-----
> >> >> >> From: Sandy King [mailto:sanking@clemson.edu]
> >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 12:30 PM
> >> >> >> To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
> >> >> >> Subject: Re: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium, was RE:
> "New"
> >> >> >> Paper for Pt/Pd (and other iron processes, too)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I have not done anything with ziatype other than
> >> >> >> print with straight FAO plus lithium palladium
> >> >> >> chloride.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Sandy
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> At 8:21 AM -0700 11/30/06, Camden Hardy wrote:
> >> >> >> >Sandy,
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Have you tried adding sodium tungstate to the ziatype
> >> >> emulsion
> >> >> >> to get
> >> >> >> >warmer tones?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >If so, how does the color compare to that of the
> Ware/Malde
> >> >> >> POP process?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >Camden Hardy
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net
> >> >> >> >http://www.hardyphotography.net
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >On Wed, November 29, 2006 10:37 pm, Sandy King wrote:
> >> >> >> >>  Hi Loris,
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>  I always control temperature at around 70F, and
> >> >> >> >>  within certain limits I can also control RH.
> >> >> >> >>  However, for various reasons it is much easier to
> >> >> >> >>  control RH in the 50-60% range in my working room
> >> >> >> >>  than at the extremes.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>  At 55% RH I really like the results I get with
> >> >> >> >>  the Ware/Malde POP palladium process. Dmax is
> >> >> >> >>  excellent and the color is a nice warm black. In
> >> >> >> >>  some ways nicer than with DOP palladium. But if
> >> >> >> >>  the RH changes by as much as 5% there will be a
> >> >> >> >>  chance in image color, warmer going down, more
> >> >> >> >>  neutral going up. But this is ok, since I have
> >> >> >> >>  excellent control of RH in the 50-60% range.
> >> >> >> >>  However, the color shift with RH change is one of
> >> >> >> >>  the great attractions of the Ware/Malde method.
> >> >> >> >>  And with dichromate contrast control, which Mike
> >> >> >> >>  chose not to exploit, you can get contrast
> >> >> >> >>  control *and* the color you want. And without the
> >> >> >> >>  cessium salt needed with Ziatype.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>  However, if the type of image one likes is very
> >> >> >> >>  neutral black, Ziatype with the lithium salt by
> >> >> >> >>  itself gives great results. I would find it very
> >> >> >> >>  difficult to make this color with Ware/Malde
> >> >> >> >>  because a RH of 80% or so would be almost
> >> >> >> >>  impossible to obtain in my working environment.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>  Sandy
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>  At 8:16 PM +0200 11/29/06, Loris Medici wrote:
> >> >> >> >>>I see. Agree with you on the fact that making
> identical
> >> >> >> looking prints
> >> >> >> >>>  with
> >> >> >> >>>POP version (at least Ziatype) can be hard... But,
> that
> >> >> >> shouldn't that
> >> >> >> >>>  much
> >> >> >> >>>hard to you? I mean you have a lightsource with
> >> >> integrator,
> >> >> >> you can
> >> >> >> >>>  control
> >> >> >> >>>humidity and temperature in your working area,
> you're
> >> >> >> accustomed to be
> >> >> >> >>>consistent in coating + drying the paper (in fact,
> you're
> >> >> a
> >> >> >> master carbon
> >> >> >> >>>printer!). Do you still find hard to get consistent
> /
> >> >> close
> >> >> >> results?
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>>About compression in the shadows: I cheat, I
> artificially
> >> >> >> increase
> >> >> >> >>>  contrast
> >> >> >> >>>in the shadows. When you have problems - even if
> you have
> >> >> a
> >> >> >> perfect
> >> >> >> >>>calibration - some extra contrast boost in the
> shadows
> >> >> (it
> >> >> >> should look
> >> >> >> >>>almost weird on your screen) will do good in that
> >> >> aspect...
> >> >> >> The more
> >> >> >> >>>  texture
> >> >> >> >>>you have in the shadows, the less you have this
> "looks
> >> >> dull"
> >> >> >> problem. Low
> >> >> >> >>>key images with delicate tonal transitions make
> another
> >> >> >> problem - I think
> >> >> >> >>>Pt/Pd (or any other process which results a matte
> print)
> >> >> is
> >> >> >> not the best
> >> >> >> >>>choice for this type of imagery... Carbon is, in my
> >> >> >> understanding.
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>>Regards,
> >> >> >> >>>Loris.
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>>-----Original Message-----
> >> >> >> >>>From: Sandy King [mailto:sanking@clemson.edu]
> >> >> >> >>>Sent: 29 Kas¾m 2006 Çars¸amba 18:16
> >> >> >> >>>To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
> >> >> >> >>>Subject: RE: "New" Paper for Pt/Pd (and other iron
> >> >> >> processes, too)
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>>What I meant by hard to beat is the consistency of
> DOP,
> >> >> i.e.
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> >>>  capability
> >> >> >> >>>of making multiple prints, all with the same
> density and
> >> >> >> color, without
> >> >> >> >>>worrying about changes in exposure.
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>>FAO with the ammonium salt gives beautiful
> chocolate
> >> >> colors,
> >> >> >> if printing
> >> >> >> >>>  at
> >> >> >> >>>low humidity.
> >> >> >> >>>But you need some type of contrast control if
> working
> >> >> with
> >> >> >> negatives of
> >> >> >> >>>  DR
> >> >> >> >>>of 1.8 or so intended for DOP palladium. You can
> actually
> >> >> >> get it by
> >> >> >> >>>  adding a
> >> >> >> >>>few drops of dichromate to the sensitizer, as you
> do with
> >> >> >> ziatype. There
> >> >> >> >>>  is
> >> >> >> >>>no down side to this as far as I can see, and the
> ability
> >> >> to
> >> >> >> control
> >> >> >> >>>contrast this way makes the Ware/Malde process
> quite
> >> >> >> flexible.
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>>FAO with the lithium salt (ziatype) also works
> well,
> >> >> though
> >> >> >> I have only
> >> >> >> >>>  made
> >> >> >> >>>a few prints with it. But for persons who like nice
> >> >> neutral
> >> >> >> black prints
> >> >> >> >  >>this is the way to go with palladium.
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>>But printing with Pt./Pd. drives me crazy at times.
> The
> >> >> >> prints always
> >> >> >> >>>  have
> >> >> >> >>>this glorious look when they are washing, and when
> you
> >> >> hang
> >> >> >> them up to
> >> >> >> >>>  dry.
> >> >> >> >>>Then you come back the next morning when they are
> dry and
> >> >> >> they look dull.
> >> >> >> >>>  By
> >> >> >> >>>contrast, carbon prints improve in look as they
> dry. I do
> >> >> >> find that a
> >> >> >> >>>  couple
> >> >> >> >>>of coats of some kind of clear gloss lacquer or
> varnish
> >> >> >> recovers some of
> >> >> >> >>>  the
> >> >> >> >>>wet look, but not all of it.
> >> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >> >>>Sandy
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >