RE: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium,was RE: "New" Paper for Pt/Pd (and other iron processes, too)
Eric, > Camden, What resources have you read regarding what constitutes a ziatype > and what a Ware/Malde? Most of the information I've been reading about the two processes was posted to this list. The apparently misleading information was found in the archives. > Humidity is a hugh part of ALL palladium printing no matter what you call > it. This was my operating assumption, until I found the above mentioned data. > When you say, "being left out" for the W/M where do you understand that > you > leave it? This was in one of Loris' posts this morning. I understand this to mean being left to dry in the designated humidity for an extended amount of time. > Is a Ziatype no longer a Ziatype if you print drier? Or is it only a > Ziatype > if you use sodium tungstate? Lithium? I wonder where you all start > defining > these "methods"? I'm only drawing a line between the two methods for the sake of preventing confusion (unsuccessfully as it may have been). The fundamental difference I mentioned before is the use of sodium tungstate. Nowhere in Ware's article is it mentioned, whereas it's used in ziatype. There's the distinction. I'm operating on the assumption that nothing else is different between the two (just for this particular discussion), since it sounds like that's the only difference in Sandy's comparison of Ware/Malde and ziatype (please correct me if I'm wrong here). Camden Hardy camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net http://www.hardyphotography.net > Eric Neilsen Photography > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 > Dallas, TX 75226 > 214-827-8301 > http://ericneilsenphotography.com > > Skype : ejprinter> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Camden Hardy [mailto:camden@hardyphotography.net] >> Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 12:24 PM >> To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca >> Subject: RE: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium, was RE: "New" >> Paper for Pt/Pd (and other iron processes, too) >> >> Eric, >> >> I was speaking very generally about color. I see what you're >> saying about >> varying methods, etc. >> >> But the methods (based on what I've read, at least) for >> controlling warm >> vs. cool are fundamentally different between the Ware/Malde and >> ziatype >> processes. As far as I understand it, Ware/Malde in its basic >> procedure >> goes warm by being left out before exposure (right?) or >> adjusting the >> humidity or both, whereas for ziatype sodium tungstate is added >> to the >> solution. Humidity doesn't seem to be as much of a factor in >> color for >> ziatype. Of course, I could be entirely off-base here too... >> :) >> >> So I guess what it boils down to is that I was looking for a >> comparison of >> color between letting the paper sit after coating and/or >> changing >> humidity, and adding sodium tungstate. >> >> >> Camden Hardy >> >> camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net >> http://www.hardyphotography.net >> >> >> >> On Thu, November 30, 2006 9:29 pm, Eric Neilsen wrote: >> > Camden, Consider me a patron of the total platinum/palladium >> process. I >> > don't draw clear distinctions between methods to such a >> degree as to say >> > that there are systems so much as there are starting points. >> > >> > There has been over the years much confusion spread as to >> what is the >> > intention of certain methods. I was trying to see if you >> would define what >> > you saw as Ware/Malde "system". Please don't take it as a >> debate but more >> > of >> > an inquiry. >> > >> > Some have made it seem as if the Ware/Malde information is >> strict and must >> > be this tightly controlled environment, and the Ziatype is >> less >> > restrictive. >> > Far too often printers will present their information as if >> everyone does >> > it >> > "this" way. When there are so many ways to get the solution >> on to the >> > paper, >> > just what is meant by the X system is really a starting point >> only to >> > those >> > that are in the same room at the same time. I am just trying >> to get you to >> > see that the options are far and wide. It may be easy to say >> the X system, >> > but there still must be explanation as to what the current >> version of X >> > is? >> > Or what it perceived to be. My interpretation of one system >> may be >> > different >> > enough to influence the color of the prints to a point where >> they don't >> > match your prints using the "same" system. >> > >> > >> > >> > Eric Neilsen Photography >> > 4101 Commerce Street >> > Suite 9 >> > Dallas, TX 75226 >> > http://e.neilsen.home.att.net >> > http://ericneilsenphotography.com >> > Skype ejprinter >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Camden Hardy [mailto:camden@hardyphotography.net] >> >> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 9:23 PM >> >> To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca >> >> Subject: RE: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium, was RE: "New" >> Paper for >> >> Pt/Pd (and other iron processes, too) >> >> >> >> Eric, >> >> >> >> I think we have a misunderstanding going here. I didn't >> want to get >> >> into >> >> a philosophical debate about where to draw the line between >> processes; I >> >> merely used the names to distinguish the two methods. I was >> only asking >> >> for a visual color comparison between Ware/Malde POP and >> ziatype in >> >> their >> >> "warm" spectrums...nothing too complicated. >> >> >> >> >> >> Camden Hardy >> >> >> >> camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net >> >> http://www.hardyphotography.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, November 30, 2006 4:18 pm, EJN Photo wrote: >> >> > Camden, I have not done a reflective reading for them to >> be able to >> >> give >> >> > you >> >> > color density reading. And as far as strict systems, I >> haven't work to >> >> the >> >> > exact standards that you might apply to them. If I use >> ammonium >> >> palladium >> >> > is >> >> > that a traditional print? Or if I substitute sodium in the >> Ware/Malde >> >> > system, am I no longer making a Ware/Malde print? I don't >> think so. >> >> > >> >> > Clay, did you make your prints with the ammonium platinum? >> If so, >> >> where >> >> > are >> >> > you getting it? I was able to pick some up from Englehard, >> but that >> >> was >> >> > only >> >> > a single order and it is all gone now. >> >> > >> >> > My AFO prints, whether you call them Ware/Malde or >> EJ_o_types, do show >> >> a >> >> > bit >> >> > more reddish quality. I can however get close to that with >> traditional >> >> > solution and sodium citrate developer. I have not beat all >> those >> >> possible >> >> > paths. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Eric Neilsen Photography >> >> > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 >> >> > Dallas, TX 75226 >> >> > 214-827-8301 >> >> > http://ericneilsenphotography.com >> >> > >> >> > Skype : ejprinter> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> From: Camden Hardy [mailto:camden@hardyphotography.net] >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 4:29 PM >> >> >> To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca >> >> >> Subject: RE: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium, was RE: >> "New" >> >> >> Paper for Pt/Pd (and other iron processes, too) >> >> >> >> >> >> > Camden, The Ware/Malde system should not lead you to a >> >> >> specific color, nor >> >> >> > does the Ziatype or Traditional DOP. They are all >> capable of >> >> >> producing >> >> >> > prints of various colors. >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm aware that both processes can be adjusted to create a >> warm >> >> >> or cool >> >> >> tone. The articles I've read about each all had charts >> showing >> >> >> the >> >> >> factors that can shift from a cool to a warm tone. >> >> >> >> >> >> I asked the question because the term "warm" is fairly >> vague. >> >> >> Sepia and >> >> >> thiourea are both "warm" toners, but thiourea is more >> toward >> >> >> the yellow >> >> >> end. "Warm" could mean red, yellow, pink (just kidding), >> etc. >> >> >> I'm >> >> >> wondering whether one process is capable of producing >> warm >> >> >> colors that the >> >> >> other can't. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Camden Hardy >> >> >> >> >> >> camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net >> >> >> http://www.hardyphotography.net >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > I think that you'd be better thinking of the reasons >> that any >> >> >> pt/pd prints >> >> >> > changes color and one of the biggest contributors to >> that is >> >> >> humidity or >> >> >> > lack thereof. There are big gereralizations that can be >> made >> >> >> about PT, PD >> >> >> > and humidity. There are also several very good ways to >> >> >> develop these >> >> >> > images >> >> >> > that influence color. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Eric Neilsen Photography >> >> >> > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 >> >> >> > Dallas, TX 75226 >> >> >> > 214-827-8301 >> >> >> > http://ericneilsenphotography.com >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Skype : ejprinter> -----Original Message----- >> >> >> >> From: Sandy King [mailto:sanking@clemson.edu] >> >> >> >> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 12:30 PM >> >> >> >> To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca >> >> >> >> Subject: Re: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium, was RE: >> "New" >> >> >> >> Paper for Pt/Pd (and other iron processes, too) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I have not done anything with ziatype other than >> >> >> >> print with straight FAO plus lithium palladium >> >> >> >> chloride. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sandy >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> At 8:21 AM -0700 11/30/06, Camden Hardy wrote: >> >> >> >> >Sandy, >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >Have you tried adding sodium tungstate to the ziatype >> >> >> emulsion >> >> >> >> to get >> >> >> >> >warmer tones? >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >If so, how does the color compare to that of the >> Ware/Malde >> >> >> >> POP process? >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >Camden Hardy >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net >> >> >> >> >http://www.hardyphotography.net >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >On Wed, November 29, 2006 10:37 pm, Sandy King wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Hi Loris, >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I always control temperature at around 70F, and >> >> >> >> >> within certain limits I can also control RH. >> >> >> >> >> However, for various reasons it is much easier to >> >> >> >> >> control RH in the 50-60% range in my working room >> >> >> >> >> than at the extremes. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> At 55% RH I really like the results I get with >> >> >> >> >> the Ware/Malde POP palladium process. Dmax is >> >> >> >> >> excellent and the color is a nice warm black. In >> >> >> >> >> some ways nicer than with DOP palladium. But if >> >> >> >> >> the RH changes by as much as 5% there will be a >> >> >> >> >> chance in image color, warmer going down, more >> >> >> >> >> neutral going up. But this is ok, since I have >> >> >> >> >> excellent control of RH in the 50-60% range. >> >> >> >> >> However, the color shift with RH change is one of >> >> >> >> >> the great attractions of the Ware/Malde method. >> >> >> >> >> And with dichromate contrast control, which Mike >> >> >> >> >> chose not to exploit, you can get contrast >> >> >> >> >> control *and* the color you want. And without the >> >> >> >> >> cessium salt needed with Ziatype. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> However, if the type of image one likes is very >> >> >> >> >> neutral black, Ziatype with the lithium salt by >> >> >> >> >> itself gives great results. I would find it very >> >> >> >> >> difficult to make this color with Ware/Malde >> >> >> >> >> because a RH of 80% or so would be almost >> >> >> >> >> impossible to obtain in my working environment. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sandy >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> At 8:16 PM +0200 11/29/06, Loris Medici wrote: >> >> >> >> >>>I see. Agree with you on the fact that making >> identical >> >> >> >> looking prints >> >> >> >> >>> with >> >> >> >> >>>POP version (at least Ziatype) can be hard... But, >> that >> >> >> >> shouldn't that >> >> >> >> >>> much >> >> >> >> >>>hard to you? I mean you have a lightsource with >> >> >> integrator, >> >> >> >> you can >> >> >> >> >>> control >> >> >> >> >>>humidity and temperature in your working area, >> you're >> >> >> >> accustomed to be >> >> >> >> >>>consistent in coating + drying the paper (in fact, >> you're >> >> >> a >> >> >> >> master carbon >> >> >> >> >>>printer!). Do you still find hard to get consistent >> / >> >> >> close >> >> >> >> results? >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>>About compression in the shadows: I cheat, I >> artificially >> >> >> >> increase >> >> >> >> >>> contrast >> >> >> >> >>>in the shadows. When you have problems - even if >> you have >> >> >> a >> >> >> >> perfect >> >> >> >> >>>calibration - some extra contrast boost in the >> shadows >> >> >> (it >> >> >> >> should look >> >> >> >> >>>almost weird on your screen) will do good in that >> >> >> aspect... >> >> >> >> The more >> >> >> >> >>> texture >> >> >> >> >>>you have in the shadows, the less you have this >> "looks >> >> >> dull" >> >> >> >> problem. Low >> >> >> >> >>>key images with delicate tonal transitions make >> another >> >> >> >> problem - I think >> >> >> >> >>>Pt/Pd (or any other process which results a matte >> print) >> >> >> is >> >> >> >> not the best >> >> >> >> >>>choice for this type of imagery... Carbon is, in my >> >> >> >> understanding. >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>>Regards, >> >> >> >> >>>Loris. >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>>-----Original Message----- >> >> >> >> >>>From: Sandy King [mailto:sanking@clemson.edu] >> >> >> >> >>>Sent: 29 Kas¾m 2006 Çars¸amba 18:16 >> >> >> >> >>>To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca >> >> >> >> >>>Subject: RE: "New" Paper for Pt/Pd (and other iron >> >> >> >> processes, too) >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>>What I meant by hard to beat is the consistency of >> DOP, >> >> >> i.e. >> >> >> >> the >> >> >> >> >>> capability >> >> >> >> >>>of making multiple prints, all with the same >> density and >> >> >> >> color, without >> >> >> >> >>>worrying about changes in exposure. >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>>FAO with the ammonium salt gives beautiful >> chocolate >> >> >> colors, >> >> >> >> if printing >> >> >> >> >>> at >> >> >> >> >>>low humidity. >> >> >> >> >>>But you need some type of contrast control if >> working >> >> >> with >> >> >> >> negatives of >> >> >> >> >>> DR >> >> >> >> >>>of 1.8 or so intended for DOP palladium. You can >> actually >> >> >> >> get it by >> >> >> >> >>> adding a >> >> >> >> >>>few drops of dichromate to the sensitizer, as you >> do with >> >> >> >> ziatype. There >> >> >> >> >>> is >> >> >> >> >>>no down side to this as far as I can see, and the >> ability >> >> >> to >> >> >> >> control >> >> >> >> >>>contrast this way makes the Ware/Malde process >> quite >> >> >> >> flexible. >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>>FAO with the lithium salt (ziatype) also works >> well, >> >> >> though >> >> >> >> I have only >> >> >> >> >>> made >> >> >> >> >>>a few prints with it. But for persons who like nice >> >> >> neutral >> >> >> >> black prints >> >> >> >> > >>this is the way to go with palladium. >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>>But printing with Pt./Pd. drives me crazy at times. >> The >> >> >> >> prints always >> >> >> >> >>> have >> >> >> >> >>>this glorious look when they are washing, and when >> you >> >> >> hang >> >> >> >> them up to >> >> >> >> >>> dry. >> >> >> >> >>>Then you come back the next morning when they are >> dry and >> >> >> >> they look dull. >> >> >> >> >>> By >> >> >> >> >>>contrast, carbon prints improve in look as they >> dry. I do >> >> >> >> find that a >> >> >> >> >>> couple >> >> >> >> >>>of coats of some kind of clear gloss lacquer or >> varnish >> >> >> >> recovers some of >> >> >> >> >>> the >> >> >> >> >>>wet look, but not all of it. >> >> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >>>Sandy >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > >
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