Re: Merits and Demerits of Salted vs. VDB

[eric nelson <emanphoto@gmail.com>]

FYI Joe I have kept your link for years as that page is an invaluable reference.
Eric


On 9/1/07, Joseph Smigiel <jsmigiel@net-link.net> wrote:
> Here's an example of 11 VDB prints exposed identically and then
> treated in different toners and toner/fix sequences using a 2% citric
> acid 1st wash.  The actual color of the scans is a bit too yellow but
> it shows clearly the relative color and density differences.  10
> prints are on ecruwhite Cranes' Kid Finish Stationery and one on the
> white flavor of that paper.  There is also a comparison between
> untoned prints single-vs. double-coated.
>
> The image is a nude in the woods so be forewarned:
>
> http://my.net-link.net/~jsmigiel/images/technical/toners/
> vdb_test_11.28.05.jpg
>
> I would not recommend selenium toning (KRST= Kodak Rapid Selenium
> Toner in the description) for VDB because of the bleaching effect
> even at a dilution of 1+500.  Selenium-sulphide toners such as
> Polytoner both bleach and fog VDBs depending on the tone/fix sequence
> as shown in the example.
>
> The use of a gold-thiourea toner (e.g., Clerc's formula) imparts a
> very nice purplish tone if extended long enough with both VDB and
> salted paper processes.  I think it looks sweet with an ecru paper.
>
> Joe
>
>
> On Sep 1, 2007, at 11:16 AM, Christina Z. Anderson wrote:
>
> > Ross,
> > I think the public would be hard pressed to tell the difference
> > between the two in a finished print but salt has traditionally been
> > called the poor man's platinum because of its very long tonal
> > range. On Weston paper the VDB and salt look very similar tonally,
> > to me, with about the same amount of stops, but generally you have
> > to use a flatter neg with VDB than with salt. If you match the neg
> > to each process with a digital curve and digital negatives, I think
> > it would be hard to tell the difference even more.
> >
> > There are 6 processes I teach in my alt class--first cyanotype to
> > learn the digineg process, then we move to VDB and argyrotype, then
> > gum, then pt/pd and then salt.  This past year I eliminated
> > argyrotype and made salt optional though I demoed it, because all
> > three are essentially brownprint processes and it wasn't really
> > necessary to have them do all three.
> >
> > However, in my packet of step wedges and test prints and tonal
> > palettes printed in both, I notice that there is a fading and
> > yellowing and mottling in the VDB packet I do not see in salt. The
> > salt prints look exactly like they did the day I made them.  In the
> > troubleshooting section of my VDB chapter (Alt Proc Condensed) I
> > have a quote from Mike Ware via Wynn White: "Most sources state
> > that Vandyke prints can be cleared in plain water.  In Mike Ware's
> > description of the argyrotype process he explains the problems iron-
> > based silver processes have.  If processed in an alkaline solution
> > residual ferric iron is left in the print which will eventually
> > cause it to fade since iron (III) will oxidize silver."
> >
> > With test strips and wedges since I am only using them to scan and
> > read data, I am not as careful in my washing/fixing.  Thus these
> > WOULD be more prone to showing incorrect processing, which they
> > do.  BUT, where VDB uses iron in the mix, salt does not--salt is a
> > silver/chloride process and VDB is a silver/iron process in other
> > words.  Hence, this could be one reason to prefer salt. If you are
> > careful with your processing and use citric acid in your wash baths
> > for VDB so the pH is below 7, Ware says this should solve that
> > problem.
> >
> > If a salt print looks gross as Sandy says it is a fogging that
> > occurs immediately.  This is due (if there is no undue light
> > exposure) to a paper without enough sizing so that the solution
> > sinks too far into the paper. Buxton, a great paper for cyanotype,
> > looked terrible with salt when I used it.  BUT the other thing not
> > enough sizing does is not provide enough organic compounds in
> > excess for the whole process to occur.  If organics are not in
> > excess proportion to the silver you get a dull grey print.  The
> > active organic substances in some way facilitate the reduction of
> > silver chloride.  Ryuji could explain why this is so, I have no idea.
> >
> > One more thing you can do with salt--vary the color of the print
> > from sepia to red brown depending on your salt form--ammonium
> > chloride is more red brown.  You can tone both processes.
> >
> > VDB is such a quick, easy process, not requiring the two step size
> > and then sensitize that salt does.  But if I were to choose one
> > over the other I would choose salt. But in a classroom, VDB is way
> > easier to teach and students tend to be more successful with it.
> >
> > This is obviously way more than you need to know but you asked...
> > Chris
> >
> > From: "Ross Chambers" <maelduin@ozemail.com.au>
> > To: <alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca>
> > Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 2:06 AM
> > Subject: Merits and Demerits of Salted vs. VDB
> >
> >
> >> To the brown folk,
> >>
> >> I've made my first VDB prints today.
> >>
> >> I've had a few sessions with salted prints, with which I was
> >> fairly happy.
> >>
> >> The VDB prints were, to my eye, not remarkably different (same
> >> paper, same
> >> exposure conditions: the Sun), although I did lose a couple when
> >> following a
> >> prescribed selenium toning step (fade to white!)
> >>
> >>
> >> So, re the header, do experienced practioners of these techniques
> >> find
> >> greater merits in one or the other? Do the contrast ranges of the
> >> negative
> >> favour one or the other?
> >>
> >> Regards - Ross
> >>
> >> ===========================
> >> Ross Chambers
> >> Blue Mountains
> >> New South Wales
> >> Australia
> >> maelduin@ozemail.com.au
> >>
> >> ===========================
> >
> >
> >
>
>