RE: Merits and Demerits of Salted vs. VDB
Yep, I'm aware that my solutions are significantly stronger. Probably should have explained that I was using Wynn White's toning strategy which calls for 2oz of KRST to 500ml, an even stronger concentration. -----Original Message----- From: Joseph Smigiel [mailto:jsmigiel@net-link.net] Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 9:36 PM To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca Subject: Re: Merits and Demerits of Salted vs. VDB Note that the dilution I am talking about is 1+ 500 in milliliters. 1ml to 500ml. Your dilution of 1 ounce to 500ml or 1000ml represents dilutions of approximately 1+ 17 and 1+ 34 respectively, both of which are very much stronger concentrations. Joe On Sep 2, 2007, at 12:20 AM, D. Mark Andrews wrote: > Funny that this message should come by today. I've just finished > several > hours of vdb printing and using KRST in a dilution of 1oz to 500ml > water and > then later at 1 oz to 1000ml of water. I absolutely love the deep > chocolate > brown that I get with this toner, but you must move fast. Just a > few seconds > and the chocolate turns to rusty orange--hence my dilution test > above. Even > when I get it out fast enough the print fades in my fix of 3% Theo :-( > > More testing tomorrow. Will try to acidify my initial bath--my > water's pH is > exactly 7 so have been skipping this step. Will also try further > dilution of > the KRST to see if I can slow down the shift to dark brown so I can > better > control the toning stage. > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joseph Smigiel [mailto:jsmigiel@net-link.net] > Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 10:27 AM > To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca > Subject: Re: Merits and Demerits of Salted vs. VDB > > > Here's an example of 11 VDB prints exposed identically and then > treated in different toners and toner/fix sequences using a 2% citric > acid 1st wash. The actual color of the scans is a bit too yellow but > it shows clearly the relative color and density differences. 10 > prints are on ecruwhite Cranes' Kid Finish Stationery and one on the > white flavor of that paper. There is also a comparison between > untoned prints single-vs. double-coated. > > The image is a nude in the woods so be forewarned: > > http://my.net-link.net/~jsmigiel/images/technical/toners/ > vdb_test_11.28.05.jpg > > I would not recommend selenium toning (KRST= Kodak Rapid Selenium > Toner in the description) for VDB because of the bleaching effect > even at a dilution of 1+500. Selenium-sulphide toners such as > Polytoner both bleach and fog VDBs depending on the tone/fix sequence > as shown in the example. > > The use of a gold-thiourea toner (e.g., Clerc's formula) imparts a > very nice purplish tone if extended long enough with both VDB and > salted paper processes. I think it looks sweet with an ecru paper. > > Joe > > > On Sep 1, 2007, at 11:16 AM, Christina Z. Anderson wrote: > >> Ross, >> I think the public would be hard pressed to tell the difference >> between the two in a finished print but salt has traditionally been >> called the poor man's platinum because of its very long tonal >> range. On Weston paper the VDB and salt look very similar tonally, >> to me, with about the same amount of stops, but generally you have >> to use a flatter neg with VDB than with salt. If you match the neg >> to each process with a digital curve and digital negatives, I think >> it would be hard to tell the difference even more. >> >> There are 6 processes I teach in my alt class--first cyanotype to >> learn the digineg process, then we move to VDB and argyrotype, then >> gum, then pt/pd and then salt. This past year I eliminated >> argyrotype and made salt optional though I demoed it, because all >> three are essentially brownprint processes and it wasn't really >> necessary to have them do all three. >> >> However, in my packet of step wedges and test prints and tonal >> palettes printed in both, I notice that there is a fading and >> yellowing and mottling in the VDB packet I do not see in salt. The >> salt prints look exactly like they did the day I made them. In the >> troubleshooting section of my VDB chapter (Alt Proc Condensed) I >> have a quote from Mike Ware via Wynn White: "Most sources state >> that Vandyke prints can be cleared in plain water. In Mike Ware's >> description of the argyrotype process he explains the problems iron- >> based silver processes have. If processed in an alkaline solution >> residual ferric iron is left in the print which will eventually >> cause it to fade since iron (III) will oxidize silver." >> >> With test strips and wedges since I am only using them to scan and >> read data, I am not as careful in my washing/fixing. Thus these >> WOULD be more prone to showing incorrect processing, which they >> do. BUT, where VDB uses iron in the mix, salt does not--salt is a >> silver/chloride process and VDB is a silver/iron process in other >> words. Hence, this could be one reason to prefer salt. If you are >> careful with your processing and use citric acid in your wash baths >> for VDB so the pH is below 7, Ware says this should solve that >> problem. >> >> If a salt print looks gross as Sandy says it is a fogging that >> occurs immediately. This is due (if there is no undue light >> exposure) to a paper without enough sizing so that the solution >> sinks too far into the paper. Buxton, a great paper for cyanotype, >> looked terrible with salt when I used it. BUT the other thing not >> enough sizing does is not provide enough organic compounds in >> excess for the whole process to occur. If organics are not in >> excess proportion to the silver you get a dull grey print. The >> active organic substances in some way facilitate the reduction of >> silver chloride. Ryuji could explain why this is so, I have no idea. >> >> One more thing you can do with salt--vary the color of the print >> from sepia to red brown depending on your salt form--ammonium >> chloride is more red brown. You can tone both processes. >> >> VDB is such a quick, easy process, not requiring the two step size >> and then sensitize that salt does. But if I were to choose one >> over the other I would choose salt. But in a classroom, VDB is way >> easier to teach and students tend to be more successful with it. >> >> This is obviously way more than you need to know but you asked... >> Chris >> >> From: "Ross Chambers" <maelduin@ozemail.com.au> >> To: <alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca> >> Sent: Saturday, September 01, 2007 2:06 AM >> Subject: Merits and Demerits of Salted vs. VDB >> >> >>> To the brown folk, >>> >>> I've made my first VDB prints today. >>> >>> I've had a few sessions with salted prints, with which I was >>> fairly happy. >>> >>> The VDB prints were, to my eye, not remarkably different (same >>> paper, same >>> exposure conditions: the Sun), although I did lose a couple when >>> following a >>> prescribed selenium toning step (fade to white!) >>> >>> >>> So, re the header, do experienced practioners of these techniques >>> find >>> greater merits in one or the other? Do the contrast ranges of the >>> negative >>> favour one or the other? >>> >>> Regards - Ross >>> >>> =========================== >>> Ross Chambers >>> Blue Mountains >>> New South Wales >>> Australia >>> maelduin@ozemail.com.au >>> >>> =========================== >> >> >> > >
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