Re: Defining "post-modernism" -- WAS--- First define "post-modern"photography, dammit

[Judy Seigel <jseigel@panix.com>]

Barry, not having a tome at hand that addresses "post-modernism", I read 
your summary with great interest... Thanks...  but I fear this Klages lady 
has left some holes.

Of course "science" also leaves holes -- I picked up a New York mag in the 
gym for an article about why New Yorkers live longer than anybody else... 
In sum, because we walk fast, it says... The author cites a study where 
senior citizens were told to walk as fast as they could for x meters. 
Once. And sure enough over the next 10 or 20 years, the slowest ones were 
the first to die. That they were already the weakest and vice versa did 
not enter this genius's calculations... the study was cited as proof that 
fast walking is a health benefit. There seem to be some similar lapses 
below.

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007, Barry Kleider wrote:

> Some of the visual artists who helped redefine painting, photography and 
> sculpture are: Pablo Picasso, Henri Matisse, Claude Monet, Salvador Dali, 
> Alexander Calder, Ben Shahn, Piet Mondrian, Man Ray.
> Modernism:
> ? rejected Victorian sensibilities
> ? Emphasized impressionism and subjectivity. Stream-of-consciousness writing 
> and interior monologue are examples in writing. Cubism and expressionism in 
> painting.
> ? Rejected objectivity in favor of involvement. (Picasso’s Guernica is an 
> example of modernist painting.)
> ? Blurred lines between genres
> ? Rejected the elaborate formal aesthetics in favor of minimalist designs (as 
> in the writings of ee cummings or the paintings of Henri Matisse
> ? rejected the distinction between "high" art and popular culture
> rejected formal aesthetic theories, in favor of spontaneity and discovery in 
> creation.
The lady has got a grab bag here, but (unless you omitted it, Barry) 
doesn't mention the hallmark of "modernism" in art in the general mind... 
that is, abstraction.  The other qualities mentioned are often attributes, 
but the shocker, the dividing line in the visual arts, as in "cubism," 
"color field," et al, was abstraction, aka "non-objective art."

> Postmodernism follows most of these ideas
> ? rejecting boundaries between high and “pop” art
> ? rejecting rigid genre distinctions
> ? emphasizing parody, irony, and playfulness
> ? favors self-consciousness
> ? favors ambiguity
> ? favors dehumanized subjects.
It's unclear whether "these ideas" means the ideas listed above, or the 
ideas listed next. Either way, no names are named, & most if not all as 
described could be simply "modern."

> Finally modernism is fundamentally about using art to create a new sense of 
> order out of the chaos of modern life -- meaning which is missing in (or 
> because of) our industrial age. The 20th century saw the rise of national 
> socialism (Nazism) in Germany, Italy and Spain; and Communism in the Soviet 
> Union, China and Eastern Europe. These societies had at their core 
> larger-than-life ideas of the “New Man” and the “New Woman.” Socialist 
> Realist art is an example.
>
> Postmodernism critiques the grand scale of these social narratives. 
> Postmodernism holds that every attempt to create "order" creates an 
> equal amount of "disorder" and seeks to express this disorder. 
> Postmodernism, embraces fragmentation and incoherence. (‘So what if the 
> world is meaningless? Play with the nonsense!’)
Plenty of "disorder" in modernism, too -- and again, no examples of 
post-modern art or artists. These generalities could also apply to 
modernism.  And again no photographers named.

> Excerpted and adapted from an article titled Postmodernism by Dr. Mary 
> Klages, Associate Professor, English Department, University of Colorado, 
> Boulder
> http://www.colorado.edu/English/courses/ENGL2012Klages/pomo.html
> Klages is also author of the book: Literary Theory: A Guide for the Perplexed
> Continuum Press, January 2007>
Klages may well know her literary theory, but her art theory, if 
adequately represented here, is lacking. And gets us nowhere for post 
modernism in photography, where even, say, Cindy Sherman can be connected 
to the "story boards" of HP Robinson -- acting out a story line 
articulated in the title.

It occurs to me that asking for Post-Modern photographers is another 
instance of trying to prove photography is art... aping the concepts of 
painting... But though photography responds to contemporary currents, 
inevitably, IMO, it's something else, its own thing, & doesn't need to ape 
"Art" to be art. (Let painting try to be photography -- which it has done 
& will do more.)

So I take Bob's query as a trick question that deserves to be challenged. 
True, there are vast conceptual differences between, say Edward Weston and 
Cindy Sherman, but these differences aren't analagous to "art" 
differences, because none of it is abstract. Or, today's "modern" 
photography is of necessity post-modern, because the whole culture has 
moved there.

Therefore, when Chris names a hodge-podge of her favorite photographers, 
she is also naming post-modern, tho the named have little if anything in 
common. (Incidentally, Loretta Lux's main trick is probably the enlarged 
heads.)

The moral of the story being that academia tends to  -- what's the 
expression?  Strain at a mountain and produce a gnat ?  Or like that.

Judy