Re: archivalness of gum
As further blather related to Diana's post . . years ago I knew Henry
Wilhelm very slightly and in a couple of conversations w/him found that
the Agfa color paper I had used, which was a Type B VS Kodak's Type A
material, was the worst ever in the history of color photography for
fading etc. I had "invented" a speeded up process that cut time from
something like 45 minutes in the dark to about 5 or 6 minutes under a
safe light . . . anyway, I still have those prints and though there
is some fading, they look pretty darned good and that was in the mid
to late
1960's.
FYI . . there once was two 'types' of color paper: Kodak's w/an
encapsulated color coupler released by benzyl alcohol as I remember
and the Agfa
type that was water based. The water based material faded quickly. I
wonder if they made it today, like our greatly improved latex paints,
if they
might last longer and be safer to the environment.
Jack
On December2007, at 1:34 PM, Diana Bloomfield wrote:
That's funny about the C-prints, Jack. I was once turned away by a
gallery owner, after showing him a whole series of C-prints I did
on Fuji Crystal Archive paper. He refused to show them, because he
said C-prints (even on this Fuji paper) didn't have a lifetime of
more than 7 years. That seemed like a very limited lifespan to me;
I'm not sure if they were supposed to turn to ash or simply fade
away at the 7 year mark, but I still have some of those C-prints
(now close to 12 years since they were first printed), and the
colors are certainly as vibrant and as rich as they were the day
they were printed. Of course, I've kept them stored well, but
still . . .
I agree about just making the work.
Diana
On Dec 20, 2007, at 4:12 PM, jfulton wrote:
Oh, heck, they (curators) surely vary don't they. However, IF they
like your work, which may well be predicated as to how
others in the media reported on your work, they will purchase.
Take Stephen Shore, whose early color work, all faded 'n
all that, is purchased AS faded, original stuff. Look at how a
Sherry Levine's Walker Evans platinum print sells for MORE
than the original. I sold a portfolio to an un-named museum who
did not want the archival digital prints nor the lovely
gorgeous beautiful case but wished to have what they called C-
Prints. Don't worry, be happy, make your work.
Jack
On December2007, at 9:59 AM, Judy Seigel wrote:
I absolutely REFUSE to comment in response to some asshole
"curator" who decides gum can't do fine detai.... oh that's a
different one, I meant to say isn't archival...
And Diana... you had a print buyer who insisted on inkjet pigment
prints... which I found fascinating. Did you get any idea why?
(Whichever, congratulations on the sale !) Do you suppose even
from the most archival printer they're more archival than gum?
And just what is it about gum that's supposed to be non archival
-- as if it matters. I myself think that folks who assume
there's going to be a civilisation on this old globe in 200 years
that's capable of caring whether a print in some flooded, bombed,
or otherwise relic "museum" has faded from its presumed pristine
state... hasn't got enough in their head to stuff a strudel.
Of course archivality is also a factor of the storage, the frame,
the paper, and so forth... but good grief, that's the kind of
preciosity gives me a pain in the brain... This from the culture
that lionizes graffiti done with spray paints on crumbling
masonry... cherishes singed posters and fragmented documents,
but frets that a gum print may not be perfectly archival... (to
NO evidence, in fact against all evidence, if it matters).
Why? That's a no brainer -- because they know diddle about
photography and double diddle about its history and triple diddle
about why it could even be art. That is, they have no idea about
photography being actual art. But they can understand in their
little pea brains about "archival" --- they've probably never
SEEN a gum print older than 30 years... but they feel free to
sound off...
I suppose I should apologize for being, um, so outspoken -- but
that "curator" should apologize: This argument about archivality
is an insult to photography. Some of the most important prints
and drawings not to mention paintings in the Western canon (not
to mention tribal art) are melting, yellowing, crumbling, etc.
before our eyes... And when the Italians, Greeks and Egyptians
demand the Getty give their broken & cracked sculptures back,
they don't worry about archival..
Why? Because they KNOW that's art. (Sublime, in fact.) But
they don't know that photography... even a platinum print (though
the total platinum would sell for more on e-bay then their own
chemical constituents) is judged by its archivality. Tell them
to, um, and go look at some old prints, like the yellowed and
fading Rembrandts of holy awe.
PS. Diana -- you mentioned that you printed your "collection" on
Hahnemuhl -- which one? I've done a lot of gums on Hahnemuhl &
find it one of the best, but would love to try one that will also
print in a printer, in case I haven't.
And also, by the way, gum over platinum is an historic process --
if memory serves (which I can't promise, MEMORY is NOT archival)
Paul Anderson (heh heh) did it, but also I think Heinrich Kuhn,
among others. I believe it was fairly well known... Then again
there were many kinds of "platinum" including a commercial
"platinum paper" -- who was the Englishman who swore he'd stop
photographing when that paper was discontinued? He had the same
name as a photo historian or other pioneer, but ... as noted,
this memory is not archival.
meanwhile, best to all...
non-archival Judy
Hey Chris-- Isn't platinum the most archival process? At least,
that's what I always tell people. I'm sure I read that
somewhere. I did have someone ask me an interesting question
recently that I never thought to ask anybody-- but I had made a
gum over platinum print, and this person suggested that by using
gum over the platinum, I was harming the platinum in some way--
or, at least, somehow removing the archival nature of the
platinum, since-- this person said-- gum isn't archival. I
think this person was only *assuming* that gum isn't archival--
really didn't know for sure-- but I thought it was an
interesting question.
On Dec 20, 2007, at 10:30 AM, Christina Z. Anderson wrote:
Good morning all!
This may be a question for Gawain Weaver as I don't know who
else on the list is "in the know".
I have always read/thought/been told that gum along with carbon
is the most archival process there is.
I heard a comment the other day from a museum curator who said
it was "not the most archival process".
Now, I know that certain pigments used in the past were NOT
lightfast. Gamboge, alizarin crimson, etc. were pigments that
faded thru time we now know and the watercolor painters know,
too. Also, I know that if you leave the dichromate stain in as
a darker brown addition underneath the gum layer, through time
in sunlight that image will fade to gossamer green and
therefore the print will lighten **somewhat** (found a cute
little article on that fact about gum prints "fading on the
walls of exhibitions"). But if using archival pigments and
also taking into account the slight tone difference of an added
dichromate stain now that we are not cooking our prints with
heavy 100% sodium dichromates, etc.,, aren't gum prints really
archival?? Anyone have gum prints that have not lasted? I've
seen Kuehn's and Demachy's but unfortunately, photography is a
relatively new art and thus we only have about 170 years of
evidence.
Unfortunately, I left my only conservation book (thanks,
Gawain) at home and I am in FL for 3 wk--writing my gum book at
least!
Chris
Christina Z. Anderson
Assistant Professor
Photo Option Coordinator
Montana State University
Box 173350
Bozeman, MT 59717
406.994.6219
CZAphotography.com
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