U of S | Mailing List Archive | alt-photo-process-l | Re: A few gum things

Re: A few gum things

On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Ryuji Suzuki wrote:

From: Judy Seigel <jseigel@panix.com>
Subject: Re: A few gum things
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2008 01:38:51 -0400 (EDT)

On Tue, 8 Apr 2008, Ryuji Suzuki wrote:

The beauty of glut hardening is that the paper is ready to use
as soon as it dries,
That's the first suggestion I've heard that other hardeners aren't.
That doesn't mean what you didn't hear do not exist.
Ryuji, throughout my post I was referring (as you perfectly well know) to the materials and methods we use and can access for alt... not materials used in factory or laboratory production, that the brilliant Ryuji can look up in a catalog or reference from Polaroid or Kodak, et al.

That you can name a bunch of chemicals (below) unknown to me and I daresay 99% of the other readers of this list is beside the point. I naively took your comments at face value, giving you the nyah nyah opportunity you so carefully set up and so clearly enjoy.

... I don't know of any hardener in common use not in a bottle, tho I assume the alums are powders.
What's the point of writing something like this just after I
posted a few other useful hardeners in common use but not
available commercially? What do you want to argue??
If you listed them in that e-mail I missed them, though in any event, "useful" for whom? For factories? "In common use"? Where? Not in any reference to date on this list or other alt sources of which there are many. They are, in fact, essentially unknown,in THIS part of the field, except in your current mention, as you, again, perfectly well know...

If you can buy bis(vinylsulfonyl)methane or
bis(vinylsulfonylmethyl)ether in a bottle, drum, jug,
whatever, please let me know.
I daresay I could get them by the truckload for a factory in my back yard, but if you want my help, you'll have to act in a more collegial manner than you have to date.

.. These and some derivatives are
probably used in most silver gelatin photographic products,
film and papers, manufactured by Eastman Kodak Company in the
E6 and C-41 era.
Perhaps so, which again proves my point. They're not used by artisan photographers, have not been previously mentioned, are not available through the usual alt channels, and are thus irrelevant here. I suppose if we had the Kodak supply list we, too, could name numerous materials and "derivatives" used in SG photographic products (many of them obsolescing as I write, of course)... You however seem enchanted by the fact that I took your comments at face value. Enjoy -- I promise not to do it again.

Hardeners of vinylsulfone type is very commonly used (not just
by the EKC but also by Polaroid, Fujifilm, Oriental, et al.)
because they don't interfere with color dye coupler system,
yet they harden gelatin very fast. Some of the earlier ones
have problems with solubility in water, and they are dissolved
in a solvent mixture before added to the coating
solution. Some vinylsulfone hardeners have improved solubility
and they can be added to the water-based system more
easily. There is no question that the hardeners of this class
are in widespread use, but none of them is commercially
available. I can synthesize some of them rather easily,
and I'm sure Kodak and Fujifilm have people who make just
that, but I'd rather use something that I can buy in a bottle,
if they perform well enough. (In fact, glut is an excellent
hardener if you don't use a color dye coupler.)

Ryuji Suzuki
"People seldom do what they believe in.  They do what is convenient,
then repent." (Bob Dylan, Brownsville Girl, 1986)