[alt-photo] Re: Zia standard solutions

Wed Jul 21 14:19:56 GMT 2010

Eric

What you suggest goes beyond what is necessary to teach people how to get the best out of the process to make good pictures. 

Terry

-----Original Message-----
From: EJ Photo <ejnphoto at sbcglobal.net>
To: 'The alternative photographic processes mailing list' <alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org>
Sent: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 14:26
Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Zia standard solutions

Terry, There are times when you are playing music, learning music that
terms, nomenclature is indeed quite important. How many ways are there to
express, quietly or softly within the written score? I don't have the number
here but in my playing days, I was exposed to many. These are used not so
much wily hilly but for specific reasons to create a sound; not just any
sound.

Just as the use of solutions, dry chemicals, etc you need to be able to read
the writing on the package. You are trying to create a look and not just any
look. With printing workshops, it certainly makes sense to me to use them as
teaching moments about process, not so much about picture or image content.
And it's not a dazzle them with your brilliance or baffle them with BS. It
is giving them the information where they can do what you ask Loris to do
for you; work out their problem. So through out the week or weekend, there
can be enough time to educate people on a mole, molar, and how that can be
useful. It doesn't need to be overwhelming, or intimidating but fun,
interesting. If they get it and can use it great. If not, they'll muddle
along or even soar, but you gave it to them. 

Can we assume that people taking your workshop understand simple and complex
compounds enough to know water = H2O? There is no need to teach the whole
periodic table or how the chemicals all "get all" but you can review or
teach whole unit concepts like mole and percentages of them. Is it possible
that some will get confused? Sure but I still people get confused by simple
percentages too.   

When you teach the interaction between FO or AFO and the metal salts, do you
just say use these % and be done with it? I certainly don't. 

Eric Neilsen
Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226

www.ericneilsenphotography.com
skype me with ejprinter
www.ericneilsenphotography.com/forum1
Let's Talk Photography

-----Original Message-----
From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org
[mailto:alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org] On Behalf Of
Terry King
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 6:59 AM
To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org
Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Zia standard solutions

Loris 

Thank you, it was kind of you to offer  but I already make an understanding
of chemistry an important part of my workshops. I do, though, make it my
objective to ensure that everyone understands, including chemists. One way
of doing this is to avoid unnecessary jargon such as 'molar solutions' when
'percentage solutions' are easier to understand. As William of Ockham said,
'Keep it simple'. This is an important principle as clouding the issues with
jargon is dangerous.

As background information as to how significantly I regard chemistry in this
context ,  when I was Chair of the Historical Group of the Royal
Photographic Society I organised a conference at Oxford on the history of
chemistry in photography; this was  with the support of the Museum of the
History of Science and the Professor of Mathematics at the University.

Care for a workshop !

All the best

Terry

-----Original Message-----
From: Loris Medici <mail at loris.medici.name>
To: 'The alternative photographic processes mailing list'
<alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org>
Sent: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 11:26
Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Zia standard solutions

You're welcome Terry.

BTW, to clarify / correct a misunderstanding: My workshop / private lesson
suggestion wasn't for chemistry at all, it was "specifically" about "how to
to make the 'laypersons' understand the basic chemistry principles that we
'may' use in creating alt. process artwork"... This makes part of all my
alt. process workshops - and I haven't a single "willing" participant that
didn't understand what I've teached to them, can't help the (non-willing)
others - I'm not Superman, in fact!

Regards,
Loris.

-----Original Message-----
From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf Of
Terry King
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 12:07 PM
To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org
Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Zia standard solutions

Dear Loris

Thank you for the explanation which would  need further explanation on a
workshop.  While I fully accept that an understanding of the chemistry is
important, remember that people have come to make pictures.

Thank you too for the offer of a one to one explanation but I did look into
this when my daughter was doing her GCSEs in 1994.  I have not needed to use
it since as the concept of percentage dilutions is more easily grasped.

Useful background would be a list of molar concentrations for the  different
states of chemicals used in alt processes with a separate column relating it
to saturated solutions expressed in percentage terms. One could refer to
this list if someone wants to know what the dilution should be when, for
example,  only an anhydrous compound is available.   Is this something you
would like to prepare for our benefit ?

Would it be helpful though in deciding which of the four states of EDTA
would be used in clearing a platinum print ?  As  I find that Willis's
method using 1% HCl is more effective, this would only be of academic
interest.

Terry

-----Original Message-----
From: Loris Medici <mail at loris.medici.name>
To: 'The alternative photographic processes mailing list'
<alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org>
Sent: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 8:43
Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Zia standard solutions

Molar concentration helps where there's more than one variant of the
compound in the market, for instance, at various hydration states. E.g.
citric acid = anhydrous / monohydrate, trisodium citrate = dihydrate /
pentahydrate, oxalic acid = anhydrous / dihydrate, palladium chloride =
anhydrous / dihydrate and so on... If you know the molarity (instead of w/v
%) of the solution(s) you want to mix, then you can use each and every
variant of the compounds, by making a simple ratio calculation in order to
learn the equivalent weight of the replacement variant. If you don't know
the molarity, you're bound to the "specific" variant the formula calls for,
and sometimes that's really a problem - when you can't find it for
instance...

I do also give workshops Terry, would you like to take few lessons (a
private workshop) from me in this issue? (Explaining the principles to music
publishers and theology PhDs and such...) And that would be with the added
bonus of making visit to our beautiful Istanbul... ;) :P

Regards,
Loris.

-----Original Message-----
From: alt-photo-process-list-bounces at lists.altphotolist.org On Behalf Of
Terry King
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 2010 2:32 AM
To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org
Subject: [alt-photo] Re: Zia standard solutions

...

Try explaining to us what advantages ' .7 m '  offers over the equivalent
percentage solution figure, then imagine explaining the same thing, and how
you would measure it, to a workshop containing music publishers and theology
PhDs who have come to make pictures.

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