[alt-photo] Re: casein

Tue Mar 8 14:43:49 GMT 2011

Btw, Peter, you dont really HAVE to incorporate water even at the dichromate
stage.  I believe Sam Wang just grinds dichromate right into the emulsion
w/o even adding water?  If not Sam, then someone else I respect did or does
that.

On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 8:40 AM, Keith Gerling <keith.gerling at gmail.com>wrote:

> Well, thanks for the advice about water.  I suppose we should be very
> appreciative that you are willing to share that much!
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 8:29 AM, Peter Blackburn <blackburnap at hotmail.com>wrote:
>
>>
>> Hello All!
>>
>> My fresh casein has the consistency and appearance of Elmer's Glue—maybe a
>> tad thinner, but not much. I'm not sure how much I want to disclose about
>> how I make my casein, but the fact that the powder form is difficult to
>> dissolve reveals an important Achilles heel to using that method. One thing
>> I will say—and this is just my opinion, but water is not your friend in the
>> casein process. I take great care to eliminate as much water as I can from
>> my casein. Water is NEVER used at any point in my production—zero, zip,
>> nada. It's bad enough that water is added when I combine it with dichromate
>> just before printing.
>>
>> Peter J. Blackburn
>>
>>
>> > From: zphoto at montana.net
>> > Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 21:03:42 -0700
>> > To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org
>> > Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein
>> >
>> > Keith,
>> > (armchair caseinist here) I got my stuff from Kremer today and it is
>> very thick. Enos' recipe is very thin. Enos' is like as thin as half and
>> half, maybe even a bit thinner. Kremer's is like thick honey. Do you think
>> that might be why it seems not so much different than gum to you? It is so
>> much thinner than gum in my experiments and also the look is different:
>> matte-ish when exposed, developed, and dried, and holds a huge pigment load
>> for being very thin. I guess that relates to the "sturdy" part. I am
>> actually quite intrigued with it...
>> > Maybe Peter can chime in with how thick his casein solution is that he
>> prefers (e.g. using some descriptive term like pours like yogurt, or heavy
>> cream, or skim milk, or half and half :))
>> > Chris
>> >
>> > Christina Z. Anderson
>> > christinaZanderson.com
>> >
>> > On Mar 4, 2011, at 1:34 PM, Keith Gerling wrote:
>> >
>> > > I've been exploring casein since this thread began. Here's a link to
>> three
>> > > prints:
>> > >
>> > >
>> https://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2088679&id=1173961982&l=fefc42482b
>> > >
>> > > I have to say that there is something almost "wrong" about being able
>> to
>> > > towel them off right out of the water. And the water does stink! I see
>> > > absolutely NO difference between gum and casein in the finished print.
>> > > Coating the emulsion is a little different than with gum. The casein
>> > > emulsion is somewhat thicker than with gum, and as someone said, it
>> can be
>> > > tricky to get it smoothed out before it dries, so I've been using a
>> dry
>> > > brush to "buff" out the brushstrokes, a step that I seldom do with gum
>> > > anymore. I guess you could say that one advantage is that I can
>> actually
>> > > brush another coat of casein emulsion over the top of a coat I've just
>> > > applied but not yet exposed to light. Like when more density is
>> required.
>> > > Trying that with gum invariably causes the underlying layer to
>> dissolve and
>> > > lift.
>> > >
>> > > All in all, it is a pretty nice process. I cant see any compelling
>> reason
>> > > to switch from gum to casein, but I'm glad I tried it.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 3:59 PM, Christina Anderson <
>> zphoto at montana.net>wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Thanks, Alberto and Peter, for the comments,
>> > >>
>> > >> When viewing Franklin's casein prints in person, it seemed the grain
>> was
>> > >> very fine, miniscule. The colors were brighter but still transparent.
>> > >> Delicate is the word I would describe. And the layer looked very
>> finely
>> > >> grained and very thin. Ultra thin. No gloss anywhere like in a gum
>> print. So
>> > >> those were the differences I perceived in my lowly experience, only
>> seeing a
>> > >> handful of caseins in person.
>> > >>
>> > >> Just think, Alberto, I will be able to see your caseins in person
>> soon!
>> > >> Chris
>> > >>
>> > >> Christina Z. Anderson
>> > >> christinaZanderson.com
>> > >>
>> > >> On Feb 26, 2011, at 2:52 PM, Peter Blackburn wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Hello Alberto:
>> > >>>
>> > >>> It's been my experience in gum/casein printing that how a print
>> appears
>> > >> does not necessarily have anything to do with just the
>> vehicle/binder. Here
>> > >> in North Texas we have recently formed an alternative processes group
>> which
>> > >> meets once a month—a wonderful and extremely talented group of
>> artists I
>> > >> must say. I have shown my gum and casein work together side-by-side
>> and no
>> > >> one has been able to tell them apart. They are, or can be,
>> > >> indistinguishable— which my point to them and to you is that gum and
>> casein
>> > >> can be viewed as alternatives to each other. Both are saturated when
>> I want
>> > >> them so, and subdued when the imagery calls for it. It's all based on
>> many
>> > >> factors such as negative preparation, pigment choices, exposure,
>> water bath
>> > >> handling, etc, etc. The only caveat here is that after working with
>> casein
>> > >> for a long time, making it from powdered milk, then from dried
>> casein, and
>> > >> now, directly from cheese, I find the direct method makse a great
>> difference
>> > >> and is the best approach for my work.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> I still consider myself a dedicated gum printer and only resorted to
>> > >> learning casein when several years back the weather did not cooperate
>> for
>> > >> gum printing for many weeks. Sometime in the near future I will blog
>> about
>> > >> that valuable experience and comment more on casein at
>> > >> alternativephotography.com.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Well, the heavy overcast today prevented both gum and casein
>> printing
>> > >> here in the Dallas area. Cheers all!
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Peter J. Blackburn
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>>> From: alt.list at albertonovo.it
>> > >>>> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org
>> > >>>> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 22:23:02 +0100
>> > >>>> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>> Anyway, I do have a point to share in this email that may be of
>> use to
>> > >> the one or two casein printers in existence: has anyone tried this
>> from
>> > >> Kremer instead of making the somewhat laborious casein/ammonia
>> mixture?
>> > >> SInce it uses borax and is already in suspension, it would seem to be
>> a
>> > >> great substitution. But I'm the first to admit I am an armchair
>> casein
>> > >> printer, never having done it, and certainly would not make it my
>> process of
>> > >> choice because of my commitment to gum.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>> I found the patent on casein as well. It is not 271 but patent
>> > >> 2,716,061. 1955. Lupo. But two sources on the web said the process in
>> fact
>> > >> dated from 1908 and don't know about that.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Chris, I made some casein prints some years ago. I tried both
>> casein
>> > >> form
>> > >>>> acidified powdered milk and from pure casein, dissolved in borax
>> and in
>> > >>>> ammonia. I deem the ammonia solution better than that in borax
>> because
>> > >> all
>> > >>>> the excess of ammonia evaporates during drying.
>> > >>>> In muy poor experience, I could define the look of gum and casein
>> print
>> > >> as:
>> > >>>> gum:watercolor=casein:tempera
>> > >>>> My casein prints are in the Rodolfo Namias Group site, but I have
>> to say
>> > >>>> that I was interested chiefly to apply the different behaviour of
>> casein
>> > >> vs.
>> > >>>> gum arabic to a few specific images and one pigment.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> As for the patent, I can add that there are lot of patents about
>> using
>> > >>>> alkaline casein and dichromate as a resist for the etching of TV
>> color
>> > >>>> screens, chiefly because casein is insoluble in acids. So, the
>> > >> alkalinizing
>> > >>>> agent (sodium hydroxyde, borax and ammonia), the ratios with
>> dichromate,
>> > >>>> etc. have benn well studied.
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> And finally, a member of Gruppo Namias tried casein print using my
>> > >> detailed
>> > >>>> notes, but he had very inconsistent results...
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Alberto
>> > >>>> www.grupponamias.com
>> > >>>>
>> www.alternativephotography.com/wp/photographers/rodolfo-namias-group
>> > >>>> _______________________________________________
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