[alt-photo] Re: casein history

[Christina Anderson]

Marek, Ian, Phillipe, and others,

I have no "in" with the Fresson family to know if casein is part of the composition. I have numerous articles on the composition of Fresson paper, but none say they know it for a fact, all say they are guessing it. Thus a definitive answer can only be had from electron microscopy.

I know of two that have done that and nothing about casein has been mentioned, supporting Phillipe and Ian. However, in talking with a conservator, casein would be a hard substance to spot because of its various components.

Here is the actual answer from the conservator:

"The identification of casein is not a trivial matter. It is a protein so its FTIR signature is very close to both gelatin and albumin. There is a chance to use the XRF (the elemental analysis) when looking for phosphorus but that is also complicated due a limited sensitivity of the XRF for light elements (like P etc.)….."

The reason I brought up the initial issue, and Marek responded to it, was that casein was proposed in an original patent of carbon tissue in combination with gelatin. This was 1870, long before Artigue, Fresson, and Leto papers, direct carbon tissues. I could go on and on about this historical milieu but suffice it to say that it is a question to pose, or outrule, at the very least, and I think a definitive "no" is somewhat premature, given the secrecy of the formulas involved.

My GUESS is a "no" along with Ian and Philippe, but that is not supported by evidence YET. The much more intriguing question is how much early carbon transfer tissue contained casein and is it a viable option today? Or did problems present themselves with casein in its early use that made the Autotype company abandon its use after 1870? There are hints at casein's problems in the literature, at any rate.

Chris


Christina Z. Anderson
christinaZanderson.com

On Jul 18, 2012, at 2:31 PM, Marek Matusz wrote:

> 
> Interesting two big NO.
> 
> I thought that Fresson formula is a closely guarded secret of the family and is not known in a greater photographic community. Is the definite NO from actually knowing the formula or guessing it from old literature?
> 
> Even if the original Fresson formula does not contain any casein I am still intrigued by the saw dust development of casein prints as casein likes forced development more then gum does. I use a sprayer bottle with good results. In reality my casein prints contain some gum (so they are technically not pure casein) as I use watercolour pigments, not dry powder pigments.
> 
> I just need a break in the rain here to drag my saw and generate some sawdust.
> 
> Marek
> 
> 
>> From: mineurdecharbon at skynet.be
>> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org
>> Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 19:44:30 +0200
>> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history
>> 
>> I confirm no caséin on the Fresson Carbon formula
>> mineurdecharbon at skynet.be
>> http://www.philippeberger.net/
>> 
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Ian Hooper" <noisy at rogers.com>
>> To: <alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 7:25 PM
>> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history
>> 
>> 
>>> On 13/07/2012 1:58 PM, Marek Matusz wrote:
>>>> Also, Marek, you were talking about Fresson maybe containing casein.
>>> There is no casein in the real Fresson formula. None. ;)
>>> 
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