RE: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium,was RE: "New" Paper for Pt/Pd (and other iron processes, too)
The humid side was purple, the dried out side was brown. > Interesting. I read somewhere (I was going to cite it, but alas I can't > find the source...maybe I dreamt it) that ziatype, in its basic form, is > fairly constant between 20%-80% RH. Another look at the official ziatype > article on the B&S website (http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/techart.php) > showed me that 50%-65% RH is recommended. > > That is kind of an interesting idea, "split-toning" with different > humidity. Maybe one of these days I'll play around with it. :) > > Which side was the purple, the dry or humid side? > > > Camden Hardy > > camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net > http://www.hardyphotography.net > > > > On Fri, December 1, 2006 11:33 am, wcharmon@wt.net wrote: >> Actually, humidity can be a huge factor in Ziatype. I learned this the >> hard way early on when I was printing a ziatype of a long 7x17 inch >> negative. I made the mistake of opening up the same side of the split >> back >> printing frame each time I checked the exposure, which inadvertently >> allowed one half of the print to dry out a little more while the >> unchecked >> side sat nice and cozy and humid between the glass and the back of the >> frame. This gave a whole new meaning to the term 'split tone', because I >> ended up with a print which had a left side that was cool purplish black >> and the right side a warm toasty brown. I'm sure someone will >> immediately >> sieze on this observation to create a way of controlling this effect so >> that different parts of a print can be different tones. >> >>> Eric, >>> >>> I was speaking very generally about color. I see what you're saying >>> about >>> varying methods, etc. >>> >>> But the methods (based on what I've read, at least) for controlling >>> warm >>> vs. cool are fundamentally different between the Ware/Malde and ziatype >>> processes. As far as I understand it, Ware/Malde in its basic >>> procedure >>> goes warm by being left out before exposure (right?) or adjusting the >>> humidity or both, whereas for ziatype sodium tungstate is added to the >>> solution. Humidity doesn't seem to be as much of a factor in color for >>> ziatype. Of course, I could be entirely off-base here too... :) >>> >>> So I guess what it boils down to is that I was looking for a comparison >>> of >>> color between letting the paper sit after coating and/or changing >>> humidity, and adding sodium tungstate. >>> >>> >>> Camden Hardy >>> >>> camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net >>> http://www.hardyphotography.net >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, November 30, 2006 9:29 pm, Eric Neilsen wrote: >>>> Camden, Consider me a patron of the total platinum/palladium process. >>>> I >>>> don't draw clear distinctions between methods to such a degree as to >>>> say >>>> that there are systems so much as there are starting points. >>>> >>>> There has been over the years much confusion spread as to what is the >>>> intention of certain methods. I was trying to see if you would define >>>> what >>>> you saw as Ware/Malde "system". Please don't take it as a debate but >>>> more >>>> of >>>> an inquiry. >>>> >>>> Some have made it seem as if the Ware/Malde information is strict and >>>> must >>>> be this tightly controlled environment, and the Ziatype is less >>>> restrictive. >>>> Far too often printers will present their information as if everyone >>>> does >>>> it >>>> "this" way. When there are so many ways to get the solution on to the >>>> paper, >>>> just what is meant by the X system is really a starting point only to >>>> those >>>> that are in the same room at the same time. I am just trying to get >>>> you >>>> to >>>> see that the options are far and wide. It may be easy to say the X >>>> system, >>>> but there still must be explanation as to what the current version of >>>> X >>>> is? >>>> Or what it perceived to be. My interpretation of one system may be >>>> different >>>> enough to influence the color of the prints to a point where they >>>> don't >>>> match your prints using the "same" system. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Eric Neilsen Photography >>>> 4101 Commerce Street >>>> Suite 9 >>>> Dallas, TX 75226 >>>> http://e.neilsen.home.att.net >>>> http://ericneilsenphotography.com >>>> Skype ejprinter >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Camden Hardy [mailto:camden@hardyphotography.net] >>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 9:23 PM >>>>> To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca >>>>> Subject: RE: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium, was RE: "New" Paper >>>>> for >>>>> Pt/Pd (and other iron processes, too) >>>>> >>>>> Eric, >>>>> >>>>> I think we have a misunderstanding going here. I didn't want to get >>>>> into >>>>> a philosophical debate about where to draw the line between >>>>> processes; >>>>> I >>>>> merely used the names to distinguish the two methods. I was only >>>>> asking >>>>> for a visual color comparison between Ware/Malde POP and ziatype in >>>>> their >>>>> "warm" spectrums...nothing too complicated. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Camden Hardy >>>>> >>>>> camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net >>>>> http://www.hardyphotography.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, November 30, 2006 4:18 pm, EJN Photo wrote: >>>>> > Camden, I have not done a reflective reading for them to be able to >>>>> give >>>>> > you >>>>> > color density reading. And as far as strict systems, I haven't work >>>>> to >>>>> the >>>>> > exact standards that you might apply to them. If I use ammonium >>>>> palladium >>>>> > is >>>>> > that a traditional print? Or if I substitute sodium in the >>>>> Ware/Malde >>>>> > system, am I no longer making a Ware/Malde print? I don't think so. >>>>> > >>>>> > Clay, did you make your prints with the ammonium platinum? If so, >>>>> where >>>>> > are >>>>> > you getting it? I was able to pick some up from Englehard, but that >>>>> was >>>>> > only >>>>> > a single order and it is all gone now. >>>>> > >>>>> > My AFO prints, whether you call them Ware/Malde or EJ_o_types, do >>>>> show >>>>> a >>>>> > bit >>>>> > more reddish quality. I can however get close to that with >>>>> traditional >>>>> > solution and sodium citrate developer. I have not beat all those >>>>> possible >>>>> > paths. >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > Eric Neilsen Photography >>>>> > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 >>>>> > Dallas, TX 75226 >>>>> > 214-827-8301 >>>>> > http://ericneilsenphotography.com >>>>> > >>>>> > Skype : ejprinter> -----Original Message----- >>>>> >> From: Camden Hardy [mailto:camden@hardyphotography.net] >>>>> >> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 4:29 PM >>>>> >> To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca >>>>> >> Subject: RE: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium, was RE: "New" >>>>> >> Paper for Pt/Pd (and other iron processes, too) >>>>> >> >>>>> >> > Camden, The Ware/Malde system should not lead you to a >>>>> >> specific color, nor >>>>> >> > does the Ziatype or Traditional DOP. They are all capable of >>>>> >> producing >>>>> >> > prints of various colors. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I'm aware that both processes can be adjusted to create a warm >>>>> >> or cool >>>>> >> tone. The articles I've read about each all had charts showing >>>>> >> the >>>>> >> factors that can shift from a cool to a warm tone. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> I asked the question because the term "warm" is fairly vague. >>>>> >> Sepia and >>>>> >> thiourea are both "warm" toners, but thiourea is more toward >>>>> >> the yellow >>>>> >> end. "Warm" could mean red, yellow, pink (just kidding), etc. >>>>> >> I'm >>>>> >> wondering whether one process is capable of producing warm >>>>> >> colors that the >>>>> >> other can't. >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> Camden Hardy >>>>> >> >>>>> >> camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net >>>>> >> http://www.hardyphotography.net >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> > I think that you'd be better thinking of the reasons that any >>>>> >> pt/pd prints >>>>> >> > changes color and one of the biggest contributors to that is >>>>> >> humidity or >>>>> >> > lack thereof. There are big gereralizations that can be made >>>>> >> about PT, PD >>>>> >> > and humidity. There are also several very good ways to >>>>> >> develop these >>>>> >> > images >>>>> >> > that influence color. >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > Eric Neilsen Photography >>>>> >> > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9 >>>>> >> > Dallas, TX 75226 >>>>> >> > 214-827-8301 >>>>> >> > http://ericneilsenphotography.com >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > Skype : ejprinter> -----Original Message----- >>>>> >> >> From: Sandy King [mailto:sanking@clemson.edu] >>>>> >> >> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 12:30 PM >>>>> >> >> To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca >>>>> >> >> Subject: Re: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium, was RE: "New" >>>>> >> >> Paper for Pt/Pd (and other iron processes, too) >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> I have not done anything with ziatype other than >>>>> >> >> print with straight FAO plus lithium palladium >>>>> >> >> chloride. >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> Sandy >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> At 8:21 AM -0700 11/30/06, Camden Hardy wrote: >>>>> >> >> >Sandy, >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >Have you tried adding sodium tungstate to the ziatype >>>>> >> emulsion >>>>> >> >> to get >>>>> >> >> >warmer tones? >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >If so, how does the color compare to that of the Ware/Malde >>>>> >> >> POP process? >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >Camden Hardy >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net >>>>> >> >> >http://www.hardyphotography.net >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> > >>>>> >> >> >On Wed, November 29, 2006 10:37 pm, Sandy King wrote: >>>>> >> >> >> Hi Loris, >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> I always control temperature at around 70F, and >>>>> >> >> >> within certain limits I can also control RH. >>>>> >> >> >> However, for various reasons it is much easier to >>>>> >> >> >> control RH in the 50-60% range in my working room >>>>> >> >> >> than at the extremes. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> At 55% RH I really like the results I get with >>>>> >> >> >> the Ware/Malde POP palladium process. Dmax is >>>>> >> >> >> excellent and the color is a nice warm black. In >>>>> >> >> >> some ways nicer than with DOP palladium. But if >>>>> >> >> >> the RH changes by as much as 5% there will be a >>>>> >> >> >> chance in image color, warmer going down, more >>>>> >> >> >> neutral going up. But this is ok, since I have >>>>> >> >> >> excellent control of RH in the 50-60% range. >>>>> >> >> >> However, the color shift with RH change is one of >>>>> >> >> >> the great attractions of the Ware/Malde method. >>>>> >> >> >> And with dichromate contrast control, which Mike >>>>> >> >> >> chose not to exploit, you can get contrast >>>>> >> >> >> control *and* the color you want. And without the >>>>> >> >> >> cessium salt needed with Ziatype. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> However, if the type of image one likes is very >>>>> >> >> >> neutral black, Ziatype with the lithium salt by >>>>> >> >> >> itself gives great results. I would find it very >>>>> >> >> >> difficult to make this color with Ware/Malde >>>>> >> >> >> because a RH of 80% or so would be almost >>>>> >> >> >> impossible to obtain in my working environment. >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> Sandy >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> At 8:16 PM +0200 11/29/06, Loris Medici wrote: >>>>> >> >> >>>I see. Agree with you on the fact that making identical >>>>> >> >> looking prints >>>>> >> >> >>> with >>>>> >> >> >>>POP version (at least Ziatype) can be hard... But, that >>>>> >> >> shouldn't that >>>>> >> >> >>> much >>>>> >> >> >>>hard to you? I mean you have a lightsource with >>>>> >> integrator, >>>>> >> >> you can >>>>> >> >> >>> control >>>>> >> >> >>>humidity and temperature in your working area, you're >>>>> >> >> accustomed to be >>>>> >> >> >>>consistent in coating + drying the paper (in fact, you're >>>>> >> a >>>>> >> >> master carbon >>>>> >> >> >>>printer!). Do you still find hard to get consistent / >>>>> >> close >>>>> >> >> results? >>>>> >> >> >>> >>>>> >> >> >>>About compression in the shadows: I cheat, I artificially >>>>> >> >> increase >>>>> >> >> >>> contrast >>>>> >> >> >>>in the shadows. When you have problems - even if you have >>>>> >> a >>>>> >> >> perfect >>>>> >> >> >>>calibration - some extra contrast boost in the shadows >>>>> >> (it >>>>> >> >> should look >>>>> >> >> >>>almost weird on your screen) will do good in that >>>>> >> aspect... >>>>> >> >> The more >>>>> >> >> >>> texture >>>>> >> >> >>>you have in the shadows, the less you have this "looks >>>>> >> dull" >>>>> >> >> problem. Low >>>>> >> >> >>>key images with delicate tonal transitions make another >>>>> >> >> problem - I think >>>>> >> >> >>>Pt/Pd (or any other process which results a matte print) >>>>> >> is >>>>> >> >> not the best >>>>> >> >> >>>choice for this type of imagery... Carbon is, in my >>>>> >> >> understanding. >>>>> >> >> >>> >>>>> >> >> >>>Regards, >>>>> >> >> >>>Loris. >>>>> >> >> >>> >>>>> >> >> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>>> >> >> >>>From: Sandy King [mailto:sanking@clemson.edu] >>>>> >> >> >>>Sent: 29 Kas¾m 2006 Çars¸amba 18:16 >>>>> >> >> >>>To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca >>>>> >> >> >>>Subject: RE: "New" Paper for Pt/Pd (and other iron >>>>> >> >> processes, too) >>>>> >> >> >>> >>>>> >> >> >>> >>>>> >> >> >>>What I meant by hard to beat is the consistency of DOP, >>>>> >> i.e. >>>>> >> >> the >>>>> >> >> >>> capability >>>>> >> >> >>>of making multiple prints, all with the same density and >>>>> >> >> color, without >>>>> >> >> >>>worrying about changes in exposure. >>>>> >> >> >>> >>>>> >> >> >>>FAO with the ammonium salt gives beautiful chocolate >>>>> >> colors, >>>>> >> >> if printing >>>>> >> >> >>> at >>>>> >> >> >>>low humidity. >>>>> >> >> >>>But you need some type of contrast control if working >>>>> >> with >>>>> >> >> negatives of >>>>> >> >> >>> DR >>>>> >> >> >>>of 1.8 or so intended for DOP palladium. You can actually >>>>> >> >> get it by >>>>> >> >> >>> adding a >>>>> >> >> >>>few drops of dichromate to the sensitizer, as you do with >>>>> >> >> ziatype. There >>>>> >> >> >>> is >>>>> >> >> >>>no down side to this as far as I can see, and the ability >>>>> >> to >>>>> >> >> control >>>>> >> >> >>>contrast this way makes the Ware/Malde process quite >>>>> >> >> flexible. >>>>> >> >> >>> >>>>> >> >> >>>FAO with the lithium salt (ziatype) also works well, >>>>> >> though >>>>> >> >> I have only >>>>> >> >> >>> made >>>>> >> >> >>>a few prints with it. But for persons who like nice >>>>> >> neutral >>>>> >> >> black prints >>>>> >> >> > >>this is the way to go with palladium. >>>>> >> >> >>> >>>>> >> >> >>>But printing with Pt./Pd. drives me crazy at times. The >>>>> >> >> prints always >>>>> >> >> >>> have >>>>> >> >> >>>this glorious look when they are washing, and when you >>>>> >> hang >>>>> >> >> them up to >>>>> >> >> >>> dry. >>>>> >> >> >>>Then you come back the next morning when they are dry and >>>>> >> >> they look dull. >>>>> >> >> >>> By >>>>> >> >> >>>contrast, carbon prints improve in look as they dry. I do >>>>> >> >> find that a >>>>> >> >> >>> couple >>>>> >> >> >>>of coats of some kind of clear gloss lacquer or varnish >>>>> >> >> recovers some of >>>>> >> >> >>> the >>>>> >> >> >>>wet look, but not all of it. >>>>> >> >> >>> >>>>> >> >> >>>Sandy >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> >> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > > >
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