U of S | Mailing List Archive | alt-photo-process-l | RE: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium,was RE: "New" Paper for Pt/Pd (an

RE: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium,was RE: "New" Paper for Pt/Pd (and other iron processes, too)



The humid side was purple, the dried out side was brown.

> Interesting.  I read somewhere (I was going to cite it, but alas I can't
> find the source...maybe I dreamt it) that ziatype, in its basic form, is
> fairly constant between 20%-80% RH.  Another look at the official ziatype
> article on the B&S website (http://www.bostick-sullivan.com/techart.php)
> showed me that 50%-65% RH is recommended.
>
> That is kind of an interesting idea, "split-toning" with different
> humidity.  Maybe one of these days I'll play around with it.  :)
>
> Which side was the purple, the dry or humid side?
>
>
> Camden Hardy
>
> camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net
> http://www.hardyphotography.net
>
>
>
> On Fri, December 1, 2006 11:33 am, wcharmon@wt.net wrote:
>> Actually, humidity can be a huge factor in Ziatype. I learned this the
>> hard way early on when I was printing a ziatype of a long 7x17 inch
>> negative. I made the mistake of opening up the same side of the split
>> back
>> printing frame each time I checked the exposure, which inadvertently
>> allowed one half of the print to dry out a little more while the
>> unchecked
>> side sat nice and cozy and humid between the glass and the back of the
>> frame. This gave a whole new meaning to the term 'split tone', because I
>> ended up with a print which had a left side that was cool purplish black
>> and the right side a warm toasty brown. I'm sure someone will
>> immediately
>> sieze on this observation to create a way of controlling this effect so
>> that different parts of a print can be different tones.
>>
>>> Eric,
>>>
>>> I was speaking very generally about color.  I see what you're saying
>>> about
>>> varying methods, etc.
>>>
>>> But the methods (based on what I've read, at least) for controlling
>>> warm
>>> vs. cool are fundamentally different between the Ware/Malde and ziatype
>>> processes.  As far as I understand it, Ware/Malde in its basic
>>> procedure
>>> goes warm by being left out before exposure (right?) or adjusting the
>>> humidity or both, whereas for ziatype sodium tungstate is added to the
>>> solution.  Humidity doesn't seem to be as much of a factor in color for
>>> ziatype.  Of course, I could be entirely off-base here too...  :)
>>>
>>> So I guess what it boils down to is that I was looking for a comparison
>>> of
>>> color between letting the paper sit after coating and/or changing
>>> humidity, and adding sodium tungstate.
>>>
>>>
>>> Camden Hardy
>>>
>>> camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net
>>> http://www.hardyphotography.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, November 30, 2006 9:29 pm, Eric Neilsen wrote:
>>>> Camden, Consider me a patron of the total platinum/palladium process.
>>>> I
>>>> don't draw clear distinctions between methods to such a degree as to
>>>> say
>>>> that there are systems so much as there are starting points.
>>>>
>>>> There has been over the years much confusion spread as to what is the
>>>> intention of certain methods. I was trying to see if you would define
>>>> what
>>>> you saw as Ware/Malde "system". Please don't take it as a debate but
>>>> more
>>>> of
>>>> an inquiry.
>>>>
>>>> Some have made it seem as if the Ware/Malde information is strict and
>>>> must
>>>> be this tightly controlled environment, and the Ziatype is less
>>>> restrictive.
>>>> Far too often printers will present their information as if everyone
>>>> does
>>>> it
>>>> "this" way. When there are so many ways to get the solution on to the
>>>> paper,
>>>> just what is meant by the X system is really a starting point only to
>>>> those
>>>> that are in the same room at the same time. I am just trying to get
>>>> you
>>>> to
>>>> see that the options are far and wide. It may be easy to say the X
>>>> system,
>>>> but there still must be explanation as to what the current version of
>>>> X
>>>> is?
>>>> Or what it perceived to be. My interpretation of one system may be
>>>> different
>>>> enough to influence the color of the prints to a point where they
>>>> don't
>>>> match your prints using the "same" system.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Eric Neilsen Photography
>>>> 4101 Commerce Street
>>>> Suite 9
>>>> Dallas, TX 75226
>>>> http://e.neilsen.home.att.net
>>>> http://ericneilsenphotography.com
>>>> Skype ejprinter
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Camden Hardy [mailto:camden@hardyphotography.net]
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 9:23 PM
>>>>> To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
>>>>> Subject: RE: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium, was RE: "New" Paper
>>>>> for
>>>>> Pt/Pd (and other iron processes, too)
>>>>>
>>>>> Eric,
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we have a misunderstanding going here.  I didn't want to get
>>>>> into
>>>>> a philosophical debate about where to draw the line between
>>>>> processes;
>>>>> I
>>>>> merely used the names to distinguish the two methods.  I was only
>>>>> asking
>>>>> for a visual color comparison between Ware/Malde POP and ziatype in
>>>>> their
>>>>> "warm" spectrums...nothing too complicated.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Camden Hardy
>>>>>
>>>>> camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net
>>>>> http://www.hardyphotography.net
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, November 30, 2006 4:18 pm, EJN Photo wrote:
>>>>> > Camden, I have not done a reflective reading for them to be able to
>>>>> give
>>>>> > you
>>>>> > color density reading. And as far as strict systems, I haven't work
>>>>> to
>>>>> the
>>>>> > exact standards that you might apply to them. If I use ammonium
>>>>> palladium
>>>>> > is
>>>>> > that a traditional print? Or if I substitute sodium in the
>>>>> Ware/Malde
>>>>> > system, am I no longer making a Ware/Malde print? I don't think so.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Clay, did you make your prints with the ammonium platinum? If so,
>>>>> where
>>>>> > are
>>>>> > you getting it? I was able to pick some up from Englehard, but that
>>>>> was
>>>>> > only
>>>>> > a single order and it is all gone now.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > My AFO prints, whether you call them Ware/Malde or EJ_o_types, do
>>>>> show
>>>>> a
>>>>> > bit
>>>>> > more reddish quality. I can however get close to that with
>>>>> traditional
>>>>> > solution and sodium citrate developer. I have not beat all those
>>>>> possible
>>>>> > paths.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Eric Neilsen Photography
>>>>> > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
>>>>> > Dallas, TX 75226
>>>>> > 214-827-8301
>>>>> > http://ericneilsenphotography.com
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Skype : ejprinter> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> >> From: Camden Hardy [mailto:camden@hardyphotography.net]
>>>>> >> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 4:29 PM
>>>>> >> To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
>>>>> >> Subject: RE: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium, was RE: "New"
>>>>> >> Paper for Pt/Pd (and other iron processes, too)
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> > Camden, The Ware/Malde system should not lead you to a
>>>>> >> specific color, nor
>>>>> >> > does the Ziatype or Traditional DOP. They are all capable of
>>>>> >> producing
>>>>> >> > prints of various colors.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I'm aware that both processes can be adjusted to create a warm
>>>>> >> or cool
>>>>> >> tone.  The articles I've read about each all had charts showing
>>>>> >> the
>>>>> >> factors that can shift from a cool to a warm tone.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> I asked the question because the term "warm" is fairly vague.
>>>>> >> Sepia and
>>>>> >> thiourea are both "warm" toners, but thiourea is more toward
>>>>> >> the yellow
>>>>> >> end.  "Warm" could mean red, yellow, pink (just kidding), etc.
>>>>> >> I'm
>>>>> >> wondering whether one process is capable of producing warm
>>>>> >> colors that the
>>>>> >> other can't.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Camden Hardy
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net
>>>>> >> http://www.hardyphotography.net
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> > I think that you'd be better thinking of the reasons that any
>>>>> >> pt/pd prints
>>>>> >> > changes color and one of the biggest contributors to that is
>>>>> >> humidity or
>>>>> >> > lack thereof. There are big gereralizations that can be made
>>>>> >> about PT, PD
>>>>> >> > and humidity. There are also several very good ways to
>>>>> >> develop these
>>>>> >> > images
>>>>> >> > that influence color.
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Eric Neilsen Photography
>>>>> >> > 4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
>>>>> >> > Dallas, TX 75226
>>>>> >> > 214-827-8301
>>>>> >> > http://ericneilsenphotography.com
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> > Skype : ejprinter> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> >> >> From: Sandy King [mailto:sanking@clemson.edu]
>>>>> >> >> Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 12:30 PM
>>>>> >> >> To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
>>>>> >> >> Subject: Re: Ware/Malde-Ziatype-DOP palladium, was RE: "New"
>>>>> >> >> Paper for Pt/Pd (and other iron processes, too)
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> I have not done anything with ziatype other than
>>>>> >> >> print with straight FAO plus lithium palladium
>>>>> >> >> chloride.
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> Sandy
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> At 8:21 AM -0700 11/30/06, Camden Hardy wrote:
>>>>> >> >> >Sandy,
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >Have you tried adding sodium tungstate to the ziatype
>>>>> >> emulsion
>>>>> >> >> to get
>>>>> >> >> >warmer tones?
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >If so, how does the color compare to that of the Ware/Malde
>>>>> >> >> POP process?
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >Camden Hardy
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >camden[at]hardyphotography[dot]net
>>>>> >> >> >http://www.hardyphotography.net
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >
>>>>> >> >> >On Wed, November 29, 2006 10:37 pm, Sandy King wrote:
>>>>> >> >> >>  Hi Loris,
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>  I always control temperature at around 70F, and
>>>>> >> >> >>  within certain limits I can also control RH.
>>>>> >> >> >>  However, for various reasons it is much easier to
>>>>> >> >> >>  control RH in the 50-60% range in my working room
>>>>> >> >> >>  than at the extremes.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>  At 55% RH I really like the results I get with
>>>>> >> >> >>  the Ware/Malde POP palladium process. Dmax is
>>>>> >> >> >>  excellent and the color is a nice warm black. In
>>>>> >> >> >>  some ways nicer than with DOP palladium. But if
>>>>> >> >> >>  the RH changes by as much as 5% there will be a
>>>>> >> >> >>  chance in image color, warmer going down, more
>>>>> >> >> >>  neutral going up. But this is ok, since I have
>>>>> >> >> >>  excellent control of RH in the 50-60% range.
>>>>> >> >> >>  However, the color shift with RH change is one of
>>>>> >> >> >>  the great attractions of the Ware/Malde method.
>>>>> >> >> >>  And with dichromate contrast control, which Mike
>>>>> >> >> >>  chose not to exploit, you can get contrast
>>>>> >> >> >>  control *and* the color you want. And without the
>>>>> >> >> >>  cessium salt needed with Ziatype.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>  However, if the type of image one likes is very
>>>>> >> >> >>  neutral black, Ziatype with the lithium salt by
>>>>> >> >> >>  itself gives great results. I would find it very
>>>>> >> >> >>  difficult to make this color with Ware/Malde
>>>>> >> >> >>  because a RH of 80% or so would be almost
>>>>> >> >> >>  impossible to obtain in my working environment.
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>  Sandy
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>  At 8:16 PM +0200 11/29/06, Loris Medici wrote:
>>>>> >> >> >>>I see. Agree with you on the fact that making identical
>>>>> >> >> looking prints
>>>>> >> >> >>>  with
>>>>> >> >> >>>POP version (at least Ziatype) can be hard... But, that
>>>>> >> >> shouldn't that
>>>>> >> >> >>>  much
>>>>> >> >> >>>hard to you? I mean you have a lightsource with
>>>>> >> integrator,
>>>>> >> >> you can
>>>>> >> >> >>>  control
>>>>> >> >> >>>humidity and temperature in your working area, you're
>>>>> >> >> accustomed to be
>>>>> >> >> >>>consistent in coating + drying the paper (in fact, you're
>>>>> >> a
>>>>> >> >> master carbon
>>>>> >> >> >>>printer!). Do you still find hard to get consistent /
>>>>> >> close
>>>>> >> >> results?
>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >> >>>About compression in the shadows: I cheat, I artificially
>>>>> >> >> increase
>>>>> >> >> >>>  contrast
>>>>> >> >> >>>in the shadows. When you have problems - even if you have
>>>>> >> a
>>>>> >> >> perfect
>>>>> >> >> >>>calibration - some extra contrast boost in the shadows
>>>>> >> (it
>>>>> >> >> should look
>>>>> >> >> >>>almost weird on your screen) will do good in that
>>>>> >> aspect...
>>>>> >> >> The more
>>>>> >> >> >>>  texture
>>>>> >> >> >>>you have in the shadows, the less you have this "looks
>>>>> >> dull"
>>>>> >> >> problem. Low
>>>>> >> >> >>>key images with delicate tonal transitions make another
>>>>> >> >> problem - I think
>>>>> >> >> >>>Pt/Pd (or any other process which results a matte print)
>>>>> >> is
>>>>> >> >> not the best
>>>>> >> >> >>>choice for this type of imagery... Carbon is, in my
>>>>> >> >> understanding.
>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >> >>>Regards,
>>>>> >> >> >>>Loris.
>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >> >>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>> >> >> >>>From: Sandy King [mailto:sanking@clemson.edu]
>>>>> >> >> >>>Sent: 29 Kas¾m 2006 Çars¸amba 18:16
>>>>> >> >> >>>To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
>>>>> >> >> >>>Subject: RE: "New" Paper for Pt/Pd (and other iron
>>>>> >> >> processes, too)
>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >> >>>What I meant by hard to beat is the consistency of DOP,
>>>>> >> i.e.
>>>>> >> >> the
>>>>> >> >> >>>  capability
>>>>> >> >> >>>of making multiple prints, all with the same density and
>>>>> >> >> color, without
>>>>> >> >> >>>worrying about changes in exposure.
>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >> >>>FAO with the ammonium salt gives beautiful chocolate
>>>>> >> colors,
>>>>> >> >> if printing
>>>>> >> >> >>>  at
>>>>> >> >> >>>low humidity.
>>>>> >> >> >>>But you need some type of contrast control if working
>>>>> >> with
>>>>> >> >> negatives of
>>>>> >> >> >>>  DR
>>>>> >> >> >>>of 1.8 or so intended for DOP palladium. You can actually
>>>>> >> >> get it by
>>>>> >> >> >>>  adding a
>>>>> >> >> >>>few drops of dichromate to the sensitizer, as you do with
>>>>> >> >> ziatype. There
>>>>> >> >> >>>  is
>>>>> >> >> >>>no down side to this as far as I can see, and the ability
>>>>> >> to
>>>>> >> >> control
>>>>> >> >> >>>contrast this way makes the Ware/Malde process quite
>>>>> >> >> flexible.
>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >> >>>FAO with the lithium salt (ziatype) also works well,
>>>>> >> though
>>>>> >> >> I have only
>>>>> >> >> >>>  made
>>>>> >> >> >>>a few prints with it. But for persons who like nice
>>>>> >> neutral
>>>>> >> >> black prints
>>>>> >> >> >  >>this is the way to go with palladium.
>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >> >>>But printing with Pt./Pd. drives me crazy at times. The
>>>>> >> >> prints always
>>>>> >> >> >>>  have
>>>>> >> >> >>>this glorious look when they are washing, and when you
>>>>> >> hang
>>>>> >> >> them up to
>>>>> >> >> >>>  dry.
>>>>> >> >> >>>Then you come back the next morning when they are dry and
>>>>> >> >> they look dull.
>>>>> >> >> >>>  By
>>>>> >> >> >>>contrast, carbon prints improve in look as they dry. I do
>>>>> >> >> find that a
>>>>> >> >> >>>  couple
>>>>> >> >> >>>of coats of some kind of clear gloss lacquer or varnish
>>>>> >> >> recovers some of
>>>>> >> >> >>>  the
>>>>> >> >> >>>wet look, but not all of it.
>>>>> >> >> >>>
>>>>> >> >> >>>Sandy
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >> >>
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
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