U of S | Mailing List Archive | alt-photo-process-l | =?X-UNKNOWN?Q?_RE=3A_R=E9f=2E_=3A_Sury?=


Cher Philippe,

Admittedly my French is less perfect than my English, and on the monitor it gets twice as worse... but as far as I could tell (and perhaps some kind soul will translate this for Philippe, tho if memory serves he reads English very well, probably better than I read French), you have written a book about the Sury process, and declared that fact on your website, but with absolutely no mention of how one might obtain it...?!?

Are you teasing us?

However, a propos of Joseph Sury, I note what is natural, inevitable, and to be expected, but still struck me as an "aha!" moment! I happened (by no coincidence -- 1924 was in the air) to pick up a book from one of the piles that make my studio so difficult to navigate -- a bound Annual of American Photography Magazine for the year 1924. I'd stuck several bookmarks in it -- including two for articles by Missone. In the early days of the list, one member (name forgotten) had asked several times for info about & leads to Missone's "process." (I'd never heard of him before, but it drew my attention here.)

More on Missone in a moment -- but first: One of the articles in this 1924 Annual had several portraits of attractive young people: They could have been by Sury: the *style* of the photos was identical to his, the touch & general "look," tho lacking the richness, depth of tone and delicacy of Sury's portrait on Philippe's site.

That is, we think we're creative artists with a personal style... only perhaps within a very narrow range. Essentially WE ARE CREATURES OF OUR TIME ! And nearly impossible to escape it. (In fact if we aren't, we're hopeless -- and any "teacher" we encounter will try to "improve" us to fit the mode of the day.)

As for Missone -- most of what he "wrote" was filler, curlicues, embroidery, that is, contentless verbiage, "advice" (to morons) and platitudes prsented as "wisdom." The actual info would have taken 3 sentences. Tho, to his credit, I mention that the "crayon" portraits Missone says he made by projecting a negative onto paper and filling in the light areas with black "crayon," were elegant & expert: I doubt the newby (moron or not) could have done as well without long, long practice.

However, I doubt the articles were written by Missone. Wasn't he... um, Belgian? Or something middle Europa? These were in elegant, fluent, sophisticated, perfect English. True, many folks are elegantly bi, tri, even quadralingual... but not so stylishly verbose.

For what it's worth, incidentally, judging by my own books of the period, the American photo "dictionaries," annuals and so forth of the teens & 20s of the 20th century tended to be duplicates or near duplicates of their English counterparts (although titled "American," they had English addresses & publishers on the flyleaf).

But I do love those old books from any country -- and just think, one day we will be equally quaint...(if books remain & folks can read and write in their caves).

Meanwhile, happy 2008 to all (can it be worse than 2007? OF COURSE, alas!)


OMon, 31 Dec 2007, Philippe Berger wrote:

Marek and all,

The Color Process of Joseph Sury in 1924 on my web site

You see also one of my picture on Color Process in Black dry pigments


I hope you understand


-------Message original-------

De : Philippe Berger
Date : 30/12/2007 22:18:45
A : alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
Sujet : Réf. : RE: Réf. : Sury


The sury color is not a real tricolor, the sury color is different of a
carbon Black
The Sury Color is only a Sury Color, a process of Joseph Sury of 1924


-------Message original-------

De : Marek Matusz
Date : 30/12/2007 21:45:25
A : alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
Sujet : RE: Réf. : Sury

Are we talking "real tricolor" here or is it monochrome, but other then
carbon black? The picture is quite nice.

Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 19:31:20 +0100
From: mineurdecharbon@skynet.be
Subject: Réf. : Sury
To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca


Thank you for the translate and the link of my Sury Color Picture

You say: " ...  Philippe, est-que ce papier une mixture des colloids, comme
gelatine et
albumine? Ou pas des colloids dans son formule? ...

Chris, the Color paper of the formula of Sury and my formula using Gum as
Colloid but also other "Chimical ingrédients", it is the secret of the the
Color Paper

Best regards and sorry for my english


-------Message original-------

De : Christina Z. Anderson
Date : 12/30/07 18:46:03
A : alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
Sujet : Sury

Philippe has put the image in question on his website and here is the link:
It is 16x20cm, it is made by the Sury Color process from 1924, and Philippe
says it is "not a gum print but one made with his color paper, invented and
patented in 1924" (which patent Philippe has).  He manufactured a color
paper and sold it at that time, much like the other papers on the market I
suppose like Artigue and Hochheimer, etc. and like Artigue the process was
kept secret, but apparently Philippe has written about this in his book on

Philippe, est-que ce papier une mixture des colloids, comme gelatine et
albumine? Ou pas des colloids dans son formule?

All but one of the direct carbon papers I have come across were made with
mixtures of colloids or straight gelatin, in other words, not straight gum
prints per se although gum was in some of them.  The one that was pure gum,
the J. Page Croft paper, was hardened by methylated spirits of alcohol and a
tad of sulfuric acid in the coating mix.  I don't know if he was successful
in his paper endeavour, as I don't know how long he manufactured the paper,
but obviously the ones with mixed colloids have lasted because Fresson is
still around.

I find it interesting that acids and methylated alcohol create less
solubility in gum...something to be tested. When I tested acids (lemon
juice) it created more stain in the highlights.

Enough for now...and please excuse the translating back and forth--but I
felt that the Sury stuff is very interesting alt info to put in your pipe
and smoke for the new year ;0

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