U of S | Mailing List Archive | alt-photo-process-l | Re: Gum on masa, again

Re: Gum on masa, again

I just finished sizing about 8 Masa sheets cut to 11x14" size, will try to
print a 7x10" image on them. Will use the same curve I devised from
Fabriano tests, so maybe the result won't be as good as Fabriano, but the
question is cracking so I won't bother to curve this particular paper for
these tests. (I expect registration problems too; since the thin paper is
more affected of the image shrinkage caused by drying / hardening gum -

My biggest print was about 9x12". BTW, the carbon tissues I've made on
that paper were full sheet...

I stated which side I use in my first message; it's the front side
(watermark reads right). It's a quite smooth paper to my eye. In fact, the
Hahnemuehle Photo Rag smooth inkjet paper I have in my closet is more
textured than Fabriano...

In my view, that's not a grid pattern. It's simply the irregular marks
left by the excessively swelled drying gum (including micro bubbles /
cracks). Besides, what you see is heavily accentuated by the strong and
relatively oblique light of the scanner (plus the 4x magnification) - it's
not visible to the naked eye. Also, it's not regular, therefore can't be
labeled as gridline since gridlines, by definition, should exhibit a
regular pattern.

You say it's more pronounced / visible on one coat, see this:
It's a 400dpi scan at 100% of a one coat gum (first layer of a later multi
coat print) made on Fabriano - the pigment load / density is close to your
style of printing (as I get it). Do you see any pattern? I can assure you
that I don't see anything that wasn't present in the negative...


10 Ekim 2008, Cuma, 11:13 pm tarihinde, Katharine Thayer yazmış:
> Mine has no barcode on it; it's just the paper that is identified in
> the Daniel Smith catalog as "masa."  How big did you print on it?
> As to the Fabriano, what side do you print on?  It's the wire side
> (the side from which the watermark reads correctly) that I get the
> gridlines that I find objectionable.   I do recommend it for a
> beginner paper because  it coats easily and prints fairly reliably,
> on other words is a fairly forgivable paper, but I also recommend
> that if people do use it, they print on the felt side rather than the
> wire side.   I don't use it myself because I don't care for the
> surface texture and prefer a smoother paper.
>   It was on hybridphoto that I first posted those gridlines, but they
> are now posted on my website.
> http://www.pacifier.com/~kthayer/html/Paper.html
> I do see some grid texture on your detail;  the grid is somewhat
> obscured by the multiple printings, but you can still see the piling
> up of the gum/pigment on the grid of the paper, especially in areas
> where there is more gum laid down. My demo prints are one-coat, so
> they show the grid more plainly, but I just prefer not to print on
> gridlines at all, single or multiple.  But, as I've always said, each
> to his own.
> Katharine
> On Oct 10, 2008, at 11:49 AM, Loris Medici wrote:
>> Katharine, what is the product number in the barcode?
>> Mine says AWAGAMI MASA BRIGHT WHITE 86gsm 4530190907590... You're
>> describing it as if it's different paper than what I got!? Never
>> got any
>> cracking myself...
>> Another good example for "different people - different experience"
>> is the
>> Fabriano Artistico pattern: I remember reading your comments about
>> this
>> paper somewhere (could be either in apug.org or hybridphoto.com -
>> don't
>> remember exactly); you were complaining about the ugly pattern you get
>> when printing on that paper. I've printed on Artistico, always on the
>> front side (watermark reads correctly) and never encountered any
>> pattern.
>> See a 400dpi (makes something like 4.1x magnification when viewed
>> at 100%
>> zoom on screen) detail scan of my last print here:
>> http://preview.tinyurl.com/4qxf5j
>> (a crop that can represent all the tones - not colors - in the image)
>> No pattern?
>> Sometimes, there are just too many variables which makes specific
>> products
>> and procedures work for some, but not for others. On the other
>> hand, this
>> cracking case is pretty basic and is causing quite a confusion on
>> my part.
>> Anyway, being a little more experienced now, I will start to size some
>> Masa sheets, to try it again (my very first tries were on Masa).
>> Fabriano
>> is indeed a nice paper for gum (also, I can buy it locally -> a big
>> plus
>> to me) but the price is pretty high. So, I'm still interested in
>> Masa for
>> gums -> will see it (and try it to make work) for myself and report
>> back.
>> Regards,
>> Loris.
>> 10 Ekim 2008, Cuma, 7:52 pm tarihinde, Katharine Thayer yazmı�:
>>> Um,  well thanks, but I'm not finding this to be so, that the paper
>>> is so strong it doesn't disintegrate in water if left to soak, even
>>> for a long time, if "disintegrate" is interpreted broadly enough to
>>> include these cracks I get in the backing (that's the word I was
>>> looking for, cracks).   I left a  plain piece of the paper to soak
>>> overnight, just to see what would happen,  and the same thing:
>>> cracks in the fuzzy backing, all over the paper.  You see these
>>> cracks from the back (upper surface as the paper is floating face
>>> downward) as dark lines, and they also show in the face as narrow
>>> creases.  So it's not that I'm lifting the edges and causing these
>>> tiny creases in the paper, it's soaking the paper that's  causing the
>>> problem.  It's as if the fuzzy stuff separates slightly in places.
>>> So using a screen to support the paper in the water wouldn't help the
>>> problem.
>>> I was hoping to wake up to an answer this morning;   I was hoping for
>>> something like "oh, forgot to tell you about that part; you have to
>>> pour Everclear on the paper before you coat it and that keeps it from
>>> happening" or some such.  When I did those little test prints a
>>> couple of years ago, I didn't have this problem, but those papers
>>> were smaller, more like 8x10.  These papers I'm using now are half
>>> sheets, 15.5" by 21".  I've now thrown away about a dozen half sheets
>>> and spent two days at this; I could have bought three sheets of my
>>> usual paper and had half a dozen nice prints by now.  I guess for me
>>> this is a lesson in the value of spending money to save money.   It's
>>> really fascinating how different people's experience is with
>>> different materials.  I was attracted to this paper by Keith's
>>> exclamation on the list "I really love this paper!"  and by his
>>> prints, and by Rajul's and others' prints on masa, but now I can say
>>> without reservation, "I truly despise this paper."  Now I know how
>>> people feel when they try something I've enthused about and they
>>> don't find it as wonderful as I do.
>>> I've always prided myself on being able to print gum on just about
>>> any paper there is.  I've printed on many Japanese papers including
>>> silk tissue (now there's a paper that truly has wet strength!)  on
>>> typing paper, on cardstock, inkjet paper, Bristol board, mat board,
>>> on all kinds of printing and watercolor papers,  but I think this one
>>> has got me beat.
>>> Katharine
>>> On Oct 9, 2008, at 11:48 PM, Loris Medici wrote:
>>>> Katharine,
>>>> I don't think there are that much different batches of the same
>>>> paper
>>>> circulate (as you describe in your previous message), because I
>>>> ordered
>>>> two packs of this with almost one year between the orders and it
>>>> wasn't
>>>> different at all.
>>>> This paper is very strong in water (= won't disintegrate) even if
>>>> you let
>>>> it soaking for more than 24 hours. I know that because I've made
>>>> carbon
>>>> tissue on such soaked paper and there wasn't a slightest hint of
>>>> creasing...
>>>> I didn't printed large (bigger than 9x12") on Masa and not many
>>>> times but
>>>> never had that type of creasing in the stage of development too.
>>>> I had wrinkles instead (especially while using hair dryer between
>>>> coats,
>>>> to work quickly).
>>>> I guess Keith would be more helpful in solving your problem with
>>>> Masa...
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Loris.
>>>> 10 Ekim 2008, Cuma, 8:17 am tarihinde, Katharine Thayer yazm�
>>>> ±��:
>>>>> On Oct 9, 2008, at 8:35 PM, Katharine Thayer wrote:
>>>>>>  the thing that ruins prints for me is that when the paper gets
>>>>>> wet
>>>>>> through, it becomes very fragile; any disturbance of the paper
>>>>>> (gently picking up an edge to look at how it's developing, etc)
>>>>>> opens a crease, almost a tear,  that tends to run diagonally
>>>>>> across
>>>>>> the print but can go in any direction, and there can be more than
>>>>>> one of them.
>>>>> In case anyone's having trouble picturing this:
>>>>> http://www.pacifier.com/~kthayer/html/masa.html
>>>>> this isn't the whole print, just as much of it as would fit on the
>>>>> scanner bed.
>>>>> Katharine