Re: Gum on masa, again
I just finished sizing about 8 Masa sheets cut to 11x14" size, will try to print a 7x10" image on them. Will use the same curve I devised from Fabriano tests, so maybe the result won't be as good as Fabriano, but the question is cracking so I won't bother to curve this particular paper for these tests. (I expect registration problems too; since the thin paper is more affected of the image shrinkage caused by drying / hardening gum - anyway...) My biggest print was about 9x12". BTW, the carbon tissues I've made on that paper were full sheet... I stated which side I use in my first message; it's the front side (watermark reads right). It's a quite smooth paper to my eye. In fact, the Hahnemuehle Photo Rag smooth inkjet paper I have in my closet is more textured than Fabriano... In my view, that's not a grid pattern. It's simply the irregular marks left by the excessively swelled drying gum (including micro bubbles / cracks). Besides, what you see is heavily accentuated by the strong and relatively oblique light of the scanner (plus the 4x magnification) - it's not visible to the naked eye. Also, it's not regular, therefore can't be labeled as gridline since gridlines, by definition, should exhibit a regular pattern. You say it's more pronounced / visible on one coat, see this: http://tinyurl.com/3j2u2d It's a 400dpi scan at 100% of a one coat gum (first layer of a later multi coat print) made on Fabriano - the pigment load / density is close to your style of printing (as I get it). Do you see any pattern? I can assure you that I don't see anything that wasn't present in the negative... Regards, Loris. 10 Ekim 2008, Cuma, 11:13 pm tarihinde, Katharine Thayer yazmış: > Mine has no barcode on it; it's just the paper that is identified in > the Daniel Smith catalog as "masa." How big did you print on it? > > As to the Fabriano, what side do you print on? It's the wire side > (the side from which the watermark reads correctly) that I get the > gridlines that I find objectionable. I do recommend it for a > beginner paper because it coats easily and prints fairly reliably, > on other words is a fairly forgivable paper, but I also recommend > that if people do use it, they print on the felt side rather than the > wire side. I don't use it myself because I don't care for the > surface texture and prefer a smoother paper. > > It was on hybridphoto that I first posted those gridlines, but they > are now posted on my website. > > http://www.pacifier.com/~kthayer/html/Paper.html > > I do see some grid texture on your detail; the grid is somewhat > obscured by the multiple printings, but you can still see the piling > up of the gum/pigment on the grid of the paper, especially in areas > where there is more gum laid down. My demo prints are one-coat, so > they show the grid more plainly, but I just prefer not to print on > gridlines at all, single or multiple. But, as I've always said, each > to his own. > Katharine > > > > > On Oct 10, 2008, at 11:49 AM, Loris Medici wrote: > >> Katharine, what is the product number in the barcode? >> Mine says AWAGAMI MASA BRIGHT WHITE 86gsm 4530190907590... You're >> describing it as if it's different paper than what I got!? Never >> got any >> cracking myself... >> >> Another good example for "different people - different experience" >> is the >> Fabriano Artistico pattern: I remember reading your comments about >> this >> paper somewhere (could be either in apug.org or hybridphoto.com - >> don't >> remember exactly); you were complaining about the ugly pattern you get >> when printing on that paper. I've printed on Artistico, always on the >> front side (watermark reads correctly) and never encountered any >> pattern. >> >> See a 400dpi (makes something like 4.1x magnification when viewed >> at 100% >> zoom on screen) detail scan of my last print here: >> >> http://preview.tinyurl.com/4qxf5j >> (a crop that can represent all the tones - not colors - in the image) >> >> No pattern? >> >> Sometimes, there are just too many variables which makes specific >> products >> and procedures work for some, but not for others. On the other >> hand, this >> cracking case is pretty basic and is causing quite a confusion on >> my part. >> >> Anyway, being a little more experienced now, I will start to size some >> Masa sheets, to try it again (my very first tries were on Masa). >> Fabriano >> is indeed a nice paper for gum (also, I can buy it locally -> a big >> plus >> to me) but the price is pretty high. So, I'm still interested in >> Masa for >> gums -> will see it (and try it to make work) for myself and report >> back. >> >> Regards, >> Loris. >> >> >> 10 Ekim 2008, Cuma, 7:52 pm tarihinde, Katharine Thayer yazmıÅ�: >> >>> Um, well thanks, but I'm not finding this to be so, that the paper >>> is so strong it doesn't disintegrate in water if left to soak, even >>> for a long time, if "disintegrate" is interpreted broadly enough to >>> include these cracks I get in the backing (that's the word I was >>> looking for, cracks). I left a plain piece of the paper to soak >>> overnight, just to see what would happen, and the same thing: >>> cracks in the fuzzy backing, all over the paper. You see these >>> cracks from the back (upper surface as the paper is floating face >>> downward) as dark lines, and they also show in the face as narrow >>> creases. So it's not that I'm lifting the edges and causing these >>> tiny creases in the paper, it's soaking the paper that's causing the >>> problem. It's as if the fuzzy stuff separates slightly in places. >>> So using a screen to support the paper in the water wouldn't help the >>> problem. >>> >>> I was hoping to wake up to an answer this morning; I was hoping for >>> something like "oh, forgot to tell you about that part; you have to >>> pour Everclear on the paper before you coat it and that keeps it from >>> happening" or some such. When I did those little test prints a >>> couple of years ago, I didn't have this problem, but those papers >>> were smaller, more like 8x10. These papers I'm using now are half >>> sheets, 15.5" by 21". I've now thrown away about a dozen half sheets >>> and spent two days at this; I could have bought three sheets of my >>> usual paper and had half a dozen nice prints by now. I guess for me >>> this is a lesson in the value of spending money to save money. It's >>> really fascinating how different people's experience is with >>> different materials. I was attracted to this paper by Keith's >>> exclamation on the list "I really love this paper!" and by his >>> prints, and by Rajul's and others' prints on masa, but now I can say >>> without reservation, "I truly despise this paper." Now I know how >>> people feel when they try something I've enthused about and they >>> don't find it as wonderful as I do. >>> >>> >>> I've always prided myself on being able to print gum on just about >>> any paper there is. I've printed on many Japanese papers including >>> silk tissue (now there's a paper that truly has wet strength!) on >>> typing paper, on cardstock, inkjet paper, Bristol board, mat board, >>> on all kinds of printing and watercolor papers, but I think this one >>> has got me beat. >>> Katharine >>> >>> >>> On Oct 9, 2008, at 11:48 PM, Loris Medici wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Katharine, >>>> >>>> I don't think there are that much different batches of the same >>>> paper >>>> circulate (as you describe in your previous message), because I >>>> ordered >>>> two packs of this with almost one year between the orders and it >>>> wasn't >>>> different at all. >>>> >>>> This paper is very strong in water (= won't disintegrate) even if >>>> you let >>>> it soaking for more than 24 hours. I know that because I've made >>>> carbon >>>> tissue on such soaked paper and there wasn't a slightest hint of >>>> creasing... >>>> >>>> I didn't printed large (bigger than 9x12") on Masa and not many >>>> times but >>>> never had that type of creasing in the stage of development too. >>>> >>>> I had wrinkles instead (especially while using hair dryer between >>>> coats, >>>> to work quickly). >>>> >>>> I guess Keith would be more helpful in solving your problem with >>>> Masa... >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> Loris. >>>> >>>> >>>> 10 Ekim 2008, Cuma, 8:17 am tarihinde, Katharine Thayer yazmÃ� >>>> ±Ã��: >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Oct 9, 2008, at 8:35 PM, Katharine Thayer wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> the thing that ruins prints for me is that when the paper gets >>>>>> wet >>>>>> through, it becomes very fragile; any disturbance of the paper >>>>>> (gently picking up an edge to look at how it's developing, etc) >>>>>> opens a crease, almost a tear, that tends to run diagonally >>>>>> across >>>>>> the print but can go in any direction, and there can be more than >>>>>> one of them. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In case anyone's having trouble picturing this: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.pacifier.com/~kthayer/html/masa.html >>>>> >>>>> this isn't the whole print, just as much of it as would fit on the >>>>> scanner bed. >>>>> Katharine >>>>> >> >> > >
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