U of S | Mailing List Archive | alt-photo-process-l | Re: Paper negatives- Ink Selection

Re: Paper negatives- Ink Selection

Thanks Guido; actually I wasn't looking to reduce exposure times; my
exposures run between 2 and 3 minutes with either oiled paper or with
transparency films, and I don't see any particular need to reduce
them further. I just thought it was interesting that I hadn't seen
much difference when switching from greyscale to colorized negatives.

I had to use paper negatives for the eight years I had the Stylus EX,
because it wouldn't print on transparencies without puddling at any
setting (at least in my experimentations) but since I switched to the
1280 I make my negatives exclusively on transparencies. With the
cheap transparency film I use, I won't have any need to go back to
paper unless for some reason I can't get that film any more.

Thanks for thoughts,

On Oct 15, 2008, at 12:49 AM, Guido Ceuppens wrote:

The comparison I did was with same printer settings, I think that when
printing all inks and reducing the amount of ink by switching from
Photo Quality Paper to Plain paper (as does Loris) the exposure times
will come down, surely for gum this will not affect the end result.
Another thing to try.
You're absolutely right about the amount of 1280/1290 cartridges you
use when printing colorized so I try now to print grayscale for the
separation negatives in gum.

2008/10/15 Katharine Thayer <kthayer@pacifier.com>:

That's interesting, Guido, thanks.

What's puzzling to me, in light of your observations, is that when I
switched from greyscale negatives (printed with color inks) to color
negatives, using Michael Koch-Schulte's NLP array to determine the
color, it
didn't change my exposure times for gum at all. But, now that I
think of
it, I made that change fairly close in time to a change in
printers, from
the Stylus Photo EX to the Epson 1280, so it would be impossible
to draw
any valid conclusions about the two kinds of negative, because
they weren't
made on the same printer or even on the same media (my greyscale
were oiled paper negatives, but my colorized negatives are all on
transparency film).

But one thing I've noticed is that with the colorized negatives, I go
through color cartridges like nobody's business. Although, again,
it's a
different printer, and maybe this printer would also eat
cartridges with
greyscale, even though the old one didn't. Too many variables.
But anyway,
thanks again.

On Oct 14, 2008, at 11:37 AM, Guido Ceuppens wrote:

Since the original post questioned the list on their ink settings I
did another comparision:
my previous post gave MY exposure times in MY setup using oiled and
un-oiled paper using a colorised negative, so I now did a furter
again with cyanotype (cheap and quick) using Chartthrob.
A Grayscale_Chart printed with a color 0;255,21 printed OK with an
exposure of 8 mins (ChartThrob white at 2, black at 100).
A Grayscale_Chart printed with All Inks needed an exposure of 24
to arrive at the same density/tonal scale (ChartThrob white at 2,
black at 99).
Funny enough the resulting curves were almost identical. I print
an Epson 1290 using third party inks on Epson PQP oiled.
So does a correctly colorised negative aid in more speed when
printing? For me, maybe yes, but an all inks setup might be (a lot)
cheaper, especialy when using Epson single-color cartridges

2008/10/14 Loris Medici <mail@loris.medici.name>:

Katharine, don't worry I'm pretty careful about this subject -
experience) you'll chime in every time it's brought up, to
clarify ;) I'm
getting older I guess; less and less surprises... ;)

I wasn't attributing the short exposure I'm using to curves at
all, that
was a side note (which should have been enclosed between
sorry). I was trying to say (indirectly) that since the DR
range) and tonal progression of my paper negatives (made with
the HP 9180
all-inks grayscale setting, using the printer's plain paper
profile) are
close to ideal (in tricolor gum printing context - which is
supported by
the fact that the curve I devised for this particular
combination is the
smoothest and least dramatic one among all curves I did until now),
therefore, other people's longer exposure times could be caused
by the
fact that they're using negatives with more DR, which naturally
require more exposure and a stronger / more dramatic curve to
counterbalance. Or they're not calibrating, or their
calibrations are

Hope it's clear, and makes more sense to you now. I perfectly
the confusion I may have caused on your part.


P.S. BTW, I have compared my times with the times of people who use
similar light source, emulsion, negative media and working
perfectly aware of the parameters affecting exposure time and pay
attention to them.

14 Ekim 2008, Salı, 7:18 pm tarihinde, Katharine Thayer yazmış:

Loris, I'm wondering what data you're basing this last bit on,
other people's exposure times are longer than yours. It's
not useful to try to compare exposure times because there are
so many
variables involved, but putting that aside for a moment, I've
back through this thread, and the only reference to exposure
times I
can find is Guido's comparison between oiled and unoiled Epson PQ
paper, 8 vs 48 minutes, with cyanotype. Since it was
cyanotype, and
since the paper is a heavier paper (27 pounds) than yours,
it's not
surprising that his exposure time for unoiled paper would be
than yours, and we haven't even got to light source yet; to reach
immediately to curves to account for a difference in exposure
seems rather a long stretch to me.

Perhaps I've missed other posts that included exposure times
for gum
and paper negatives (my server doesn't accept some of the alt-
mail, so I don't always see all the posts). At any rate, my
with oiled paper negatives run close to my times with inkjet
transparencies, about 3 minutes, to add to your database on
times. I don't have any comparison with unoiled paper to offer,
because that's not an option that makes any particular sense to

But be that as it may, I can't see any reason why curves would
account for a difference in exposure time. After all, the
time is determined before curves are even calculated, at least
how it is with the system I use, and I assume it's the same
with all
systems; the curve doesn't change the exposure time. Besides,
simply redistribute the tones within the print tonal range that
particular emulsion can print under that particular protocol; they
don't extend it, so there's no logical reason curves would have
effect on exposure time.

On Oct 12, 2008, at 11:23 AM, Loris Medici wrote:

I use the grayscale using all inks (not black and gray - if
- inks
only), plus, I choose plain paper as the media. Fortunately, with
my inks
the printer lays just enough ink giving an almost perfect
negative in
terms of density range (something around log 1.0), and the
curve I
use for
gum prints are is the least drastic and most smooth one among my
collection for many processes and paper. In fact, I think that's
why other
people's exposure times are considerably longer compared to