Phritz
The detergent that I mentioned is a very specific product. Not every detergent will work in this application.
Marek
> Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 02:58:41 +0200
> From: phritz-phantom@web.de
> Subject: Re: tips for using dry pigment
> To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
>
> thanks for the reply, marek.
> yes, i'm terribly sorry. sometimes i get confused trying to put thoughts
> into english words (it happens in german too, but... that's a different
> topic). mainly i forgot to add the "printing" of "carbon printing". i
> can see now how that led to confusion.
>
> i thought about soap, because it diminishes the surface tension. but i
> wouldn't have dared to add it to the gelatin-mix, because of the nervous
> balance of things that is carbon printing. i'll definitely give it a try
> next time.
> i also forgot to mention my secret mixing tool, i discovered some time
> ago. it's a little battery powered propeller used for milk frothing, for
> coffees and such. costs nothing and makes mixing a lot easier (sometimes
> - only good for smaller batches).
> looks like that:
> http://www.shoxx.com/catalog/images.products/h/HHW031-1_pic1.jpg
>
> phritz
>
>
>
> Marek Matusz schrieb:
> > Phritz,
> > You have done well to confuse us with two processes in one parapraph,
> > both using powdered pigments.
> > I assume that your observations and issues are different for carbon
> > tissue making and gum printing.
> > I have used powdered carbon black for both gum printing and carbon
> > tissue making. My secret for carbon tissue making is to add about
> > 0.5cc/liter of emulsion of jet dry (a detergent that is used here for
> > spotless drying of the dishes in automatic diswashers). I add jet
> > dry to the gelatin mix and pour some in a blender with the carbon
> > powder. Mix it thorugly for a few minutes (don't worry about
> > bubbles) and add the remaining gelatin. The detergent works miracles
> > in terms of dispersing carbon and later allowing bubbles to break.
> >
> > I use it for mixing gum with carbon black powder, a few drops /100 ml,
> > but find it less necessary.
> >
> > Hope that helps.
> > Marek
> >
> > FOr carbon tissue amking
> > > Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 00:40:07 +0200
> > > From: phritz-phantom@web.de
> > > Subject: Re: tips for using dry pigment
> > > To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
> > >
> > > hello judy.
> > > i got the P-F issues on friday (that was rather quick). thanks! i've
> > > been reading like mad since then.
> > >
> > > sugar: i need the sugar to keep the curl out of the carbon tissue. i
> > > can't go below 60gr/liter. i've tried 40 and it was too little. one
> > time
> > > i completely forgot the sugar and the result was a tissue that was
> > > almost unusable because of the curl.
> > > i've read carbon formulas that called for a lot of strange stuff, honey
> > > one among them. i got the forumla with sugar from the sandy king
> > article
> > > on unblinkingeye. i think the sugar is not supposed to do anything
> > > image-wise, but only keep the tissue flat.
> > >
> > > whoops. i used the wrong word, "brick and mortar" for "pestle and
> > > mortar". of course i was not grinding it with a brick. i do use
> > > "grinding" to mix the pigment with the fluid, not to grind the pigment
> > > finer. i read a little about how it's done in painting and they all
> > used
> > > a thing like a mortar and pestle to mix it.
> > > i don't have problems mixing for gum, it's fine after just a little
> > > mixing with the brush. carbon is different, it's a lot more pigment
> > (7gr
> > > for 500ml pigmented gelatin solution). when i put the water into the
> > > mortar, the pigment floats on top at first, then goes into the solution
> > > while mixing. i thought about adding a dash of alcohol to get rid of
> > the
> > > surface tension of the water. it would make the process easier and less
> > > messy at the beginning.
> > >
> > > i have to pre-mix the pigment in a little bit of fluid before adding it
> > > to the whole batch; mixing it in the 500ml of gelatin would be very
> > > messy and impractical. so i just mix it in a little bit of water, then
> > > add it to the whole.
> > >
> > > i still haven't got a stouffer-step wedge, but i just prepared some
> > > carbon tissue to do the same testing with chart throb (digital step
> > > wedge and analysis program), i just did with gum printing. so, soon
> > i'll
> > > be able to say more about that.
> > > (i could post the scans of my comparsion of 5% vr saturated ammonium
> > > dichromate, if interesting to someone and not a complete bore fest.
> > > saturated is highly superior, step-wise. but i might try and use 5% for
> > > my shadow exposures)
> > >
> > > phritz
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Judy Seigel schrieb:
> > > >
> > > > Phritz, I don't suggest adding so much as subtracting. Have you
> > > > done a variables test without the sugar? I found that it not only
> > > > didn't improve, it disimproved... But you don't say how you're
> > judging
> > > > results. Have you got a 21-step or other measured density
> > > > transparency? Have you tested this mix against anything else?
> > > >
> > > > For what it's worth, unless you're digging your own dry pigment
> > out of
> > > > your own hole in the ground, it comes from the store as fine as you
> > > > can possibly use, which is to say, more finely ground than you could
> > > > improve on if you "ground" it for the next millenium.
> > > >
> > > > I got this directly from founder of Golden pigments years ago at a
> > > > College Art Association conference. The reason you "grind" is to be
> > > > sure you've got every particle surrounded by gum arabic (or linseed
> > > > oil if you're doing oil paint, etc.) so it won't clump when you add
> > > > the other ingredients.
> > > >
> > > > That sugar business is pure nonsense, somebody's bright idea after
> > > > sucking up too many lollipops. (Test it if you don't believe me, but
> > > > if you haven't got a 21-step or other measured density guide,,,,,,,
> > > > how are you going to test ???? Nowadays folks make a digital step
> > > > guide... which I'm not fond of because I trust the 21-step with its
> > > > known density range more, but handled rightly it should be fine,
> > > > surely better than guessing.)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Presumably you have a mortar & pestle. Skip the pestle, put a
> > measured
> > > > amount of dry pigment into the mortar than add measured am't of gum
> > > > arabic, thinned with a measured amount water. (Choose your starting
> > > > amounts depending on thickness of gum, am't of pigment, desired
> > > > thickness of emulsion, etc., but don't add enough liquid so anything
> > > > "floats"!!!) Then you brush briskly with a wretched old round bristle
> > > > brush, and I do mean bristles. The one I use says Robert Rebetez
> > Basel
> > > > #270 on it, probably because it's 270 years old. The bristles are
> > > > stiff & the ratty old thing comes to a point, sort of, but it's ugly
> > > > and horrible & stiff and perfect for the job... Just scrunch the mix
> > > > around in that white mortar bowl til it seems smooth to the eye,
> > maybe
> > > > 3 minutes, depending on volume, then scrunch another minute or so,
> > add
> > > > about half the volume of saturated ammonium dichromate solution &
> > coat
> > > > some paper to test.
> > > >
> > > > If you don't have a mortar, put the ingredients together in a cup,
> > > > stir well, then empty onto a sheet of heavy glass or an enamelled
> > > > butcher's tray-- that's a flat tray about 8x12 inches with low rim
> > > > around it -- enough to keep your liquid from spilling over, but not
> > > > high enough to interfere with smooching the stuff around with a
> > > > pallette knife until it's amalgamated... maybe 3 minutes,
> > depending on
> > > > volume.
> > > >
> > > > The amounts above are purely arbitrary depending on your volume of
> > > > pigment and its fluff, or density, plus the viscosity of your gum, as
> > > > well of course as your style of printing. The important thing is to
> > > > measure what you add and then modify amounts accordingly. I note
> > > > however that this is for gum printing. If you're doing this for
> > > > carbon printing, I don 't have a clue -- EXCEPT I've probably read or
> > > > skimmed 90% of the classic carbon formulas. I don't recall any that
> > > > called for sugar. Who is this sugar advisor? A Cuban?
> > > >
> > > > Oh, and that grinding with a brick stuff is nonsense for any process.
> > > > (Unless you want bits of brick as pigment, which could have a nice
> > > > texture.)
> > > >
> > > > BTW, the pigment should be neither sinking to the bottom nor floating
> > > > on the top, rather an even amalgamation, like, say, chocolate syrup.
> > > > But come to think of it, what process are you adding dissolved
> > gelatin
> > > > to? Gelatin at room temperature tends to set ... then what do you do
> > > > with it? Is this some special gelatin process? In which case, I never
> > > > heard of it, so ignore everything I've said above.
> > > >
> > > > cheers,
> > > >
> > > > Judy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, 10 May 2009, phritz-phantom@web.de wrote:
> > >
> > > > i mostly use dry pigment for all my alternative processes. i started
> > > > using it, because of a misconception that most alternative photo
> > > > printers prefer it. later i learned that it just the opposite is the
> > > > case. but actually i want to keep using it. it's way cheaper (i can
> > > > buy 80gr of lamp black - which lasts a long time - for the price
> > of on
> > > > 15ml tube) and i already bought about ten jars. so far i haven't had
> > > > any problems with printing gum (i put a little bit in a jar, mix it
> > > > with gum and dichromate with a brush - no problems, no specks at
> > all).
> > > > but sometimes with carbon i get these specks (i'm not really sure if
> > > > it's the pigment or the sugar in the mix (i use a rather high sugar
> > > > content). i filter the carbon solution through a piece of nylon (? -
> > > > the stuff women's stockings are made of), but still - mostly with the
> > > > last tissue of the batch; of course the specks go down to the bottom.
> > > > my normal procedure is to first mix the pigment with a brush and a
> > > > dash of water, then grind it with a brick and mortar, then put it
> > into
> > > > the gelatine + sugar solution. i tried grinding the pigment in a
> > > > little bit of gelatine solution, but using water was better. i once
> > > > put a little big of alcohol (it's an old bottle labeled
> > > > "brennspiritus" ("ethanol") i inherited from my grandfather, but i
> > > > don't really know which kind of alcohol it really is, it's ages old)
> > > > into the pigment mix and this had the good effect that the pigment
> > > > sinks to the bottom, instead of swimming on top of the water. it
> > makes
> > > > the mixing a lot easier. what else could i add that would make the
> > > > mixing and grinding easier. i haven't added any alcohol or
> > whatever to
> > > > my pigment mixes for alt. processes so far, because i'm afraid it
> > > > could interfere with the process.
> > >
> > >
> >
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