[alt-photo] Re: Klein Blue (ping Katherine...)

[Katharine Thayer]

Darn, I was a little afraid of that, although I hoped that maybe a  
red shade pthalo would do the job (although I guess I neglected to  
mention that in my post).  Your observation makes me even more sure  
that the hue angle given in Wikipedia is just wrong, because 223 is  
significantly greener than most phtalos.

Sorry, I know how frustrating it is to ask a question and not get a  
useful answer, but I guess I've struck out on this one.   I'll keep  
thinking about it.


On Jul 29, 2010, at 9:20 AM, Keith Gerling wrote:

> Thanks.  Pthalo just doesn't cut it.  In all variations I have  
> tried, it
> ends up being cyan.  Way too much green.
>
> BTW, I was inspired by looking at the work of Omar Galliani
> http://www.artsblog.it/post/3650/omar-galliani-a-lucca
>
> On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 10:42 AM, Katharine Thayer  
> <kthayer at pacifier.com>wrote:
>
>
>> Well, I didn't research it heavily either,  but enough to gather  
>> that the
>> makeup of the paint is  proprietary.  It does seem to be generally  
>> believed
>> that the pigment is ultramarine, although I can't find an original  
>> source
>> for that assertion, but that there's something about way the  
>> pigment is held
>> in the binder (PVA apparently) that gives it its special quality.
>>
>> I agree, you're never going to get anything that intense, or even  
>> close to
>> it, using ultramarine in gum printing.  Ultramarine isn't one of the
>> stronger blue pigments and is relatively unsaturated as far as hue
>> saturation goes.
>>
>> I'm actually somewhat dubious that this is ultramarine;  it looks  
>> more like
>> pthalo than ultramarine to me, and if one can believe Wikipedia-- 
>> big IF--
>>  the hue angle of the color  is 223 and the RGB values are 0, 47,  
>> 167.
>>  (Those values are listed as unsourced, which makes me a little  
>> nervous, but
>> that's Wikipedia; it's all potluck.)  But IF those are the  
>> accurate values
>> for the color, then ultramarine is an unlikely pigment, because  
>> ultramarines
>> generally fall closer to 300 in hue angle.  The closest pigment to  
>> the hue
>> angle 223 is PB 16, pthalo turquoise, but you know what?  Now that  
>> I think
>> of it, I don't believe that 223 number that Wikipedia gives.   
>> Because 223 is
>> very much in the teal-turquoise range, and I wouldn't put Yves  
>> Klein Blue in
>> that range at all.  So I'm inclined to discount those numbers.
>>
>> I'd go with pthalo, in as heavy a concentration as you can manage  
>> (the nice
>> thing about pthalo is that it doesn't take much); to my eye that  
>> will get
>> you the closest possible to that intensity of color.  But you also  
>> have the
>> transparency thing going against you.  One description of Klein's  
>> paint
>> describes it as industrial-looking and very opaque, like gouache.   
>> So maybe
>> use gouache rather than watercolor paint.  Just an idea, I don't  
>> know if
>> it's a good one or not.  Hope any of that is useful,
>> Katharine
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jul 29, 2010, at 7:20 AM, Keith Gerling wrote:
>>
>>  Painter (and photographer) Yves Klein laid claim to a  
>> particularly vibrant
>>
>>> blue that has come to be known as Klein Blue.
>>> http://www.moma.org/collection/browse_results.php?object_id=80103
>>>
>>> I haven't researched this heavily, but it seems to be based on
>>> Ultramarine.
>>> When I try to make gumprints with Ultramarine they look  
>>> terrible.  Dingy
>>> and
>>> weak.  Do any pigment experts out there have any advice on how  
>>> one might
>>> achieve a Klein Blue intensity in a Gum Bicrhromate print?
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