[alt-photo] Re: casein odd process

Christina Anderson zphoto at montana.net
Wed Aug 31 15:17:44 GMT 2011

Where'd you get your kilo of casein?? Kremer?

What is interesting is that ammonium caseinate is described as water soluble. Sodium caseinate is not. I think there is a market for the ammonium caseinate powder but one has to buy it in HUGE amounts, 25 kilos at the least. I could buy the bag, but I don't want to become a casein dispenser.

Well, easier would just be to package smaller amounts of the sodium caseinate with a little packet of borax or am carb powder and be done with it.

This is going to be a DUMB question, but how does one determine if a pigment is a metallic salt or not?? E.g. which pigments CAN be stock-mixed with caseine and which not??

The FAC was discussed in relation to a question Sam Wang asked a couple years back and if I am not mistaken, Peter Friedrichsen (sp) answered it.
PS It is not a young process-- earliest mention I've found is 1858 or before, not 1870 or 1905 or 1908 as some quote, including Nadeau.

Christina Z. Anderson

On Aug 31, 2011, at 8:51 AM, Keith Gerling wrote:

> Oh yeah... I totally glazeover proportions when i read them, but that IS a
> thin mix.
> I missed any discussion on the crosslinking properties of FAC.  I must be
> getting old and feeble-minded because I'm totally unable to picture what the
> end result of any of these processes are...
> But that's ok,  I've got a old D70 taken apart at the moment and I'm trying
> to fit an infra-red filter over the sensor.  If I entertain anymore thoughts
> regarding casein at the moment, I'm likely to forget how to put it
> together.  (But, I should he hearing the thud of a kilo of casein being
> dropped on my doorstep at any moment!)
> Keith
> On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 9:23 AM, Christina Anderson <zphoto at montana.net>wrote:
>> Hmm...well, we've talked before about FAC's ability to crosslink gum and so
>> it must have the same action on casein.
>> It is interesting to read the patents that are more to do with a)
>> substituting casein for albumen or collodion on glass plates and b) brushing
>> this mixture on a bromide print already exposed and the metallic salts will
>> make the casein insoluble proportionately. I mean, how ridiculously
>> complicated they made it. But the advantage to their way of thinking was it
>> was (ta da) MATTE and glossy "was disturbing."
>> Casein was known to be faster and more flexible, and developed more
>> quickly. I find all those true, too.
>> Casein was also recommended in place of albumen during the war to save on
>> eggs.
>> Research into it is laborious. Gum was a piece of cake compared to casein.
>> It abounded. It's not enough to look at indexes for "casein/caseine/kaseine"
>> because a first mention will be something like "A new improvement on the
>> collodion process."
>> But what I find interesting about the formula, below, is the proportion of
>> casein--6.6%.
>> Chris
>> Christina Z. Anderson
>> christinaZanderson.com
>> On Aug 31, 2011, at 7:59 AM, Keith Gerling wrote:
>>> This is very interesting.  I had just assumed that the process you has
>>> referred to was the one in the Sherer book where casein was used like
>>> albumen.  This one?  What is it supposed to DO?  Just FAC in an emulsion?
>> I
>>> don't get it.  I'm no chemist but I sense something is missing!
>>> Keith
>>> On Wed, Aug 31, 2011 at 8:44 AM, Christina Anderson <zphoto at montana.net
>>> wrote:
>>>> Keith,
>>>> Since you asked....
>>>> In searching for casein (still) the one formula I came across a patent
>> for:
>>>> 5g of anhydrous casein, 75 ml water, 2 ml ammonia, and 2.5 g ferric
>> ammonium
>>>> citrate (FAC). Brushed on paper.
>>>> I have found continually that casein cannot be mixed with metallic salts
>>>> because they will, what is the term, "throw down" and insolubilize. This
>> is
>>>> one advantage I see in gum is the ability to mix stock pigment solutions
>>>> with no hardening.
>>>> Chris
>>>> Christina Z. Anderson
>>>> christinaZanderson.com
>>>> _______________________________________________
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