[alt-photo] Re: The Illusive Black Cyanotype - Any Insight?

Francesco Fragomeni fdfragomeni at gmail.com
Tue Sep 20 22:07:39 GMT 2011 

In regard to the gallic acid toning procedure, can anyone confirm what the
nitric acid does? My assumption is that it is a clearing agent intended to
aggressively neutralize or remove excess iron residue before bleaching in
sodium carbonate and then toning in the gallic acid. Can anyone confirm
this?

-Francesco

On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 3:06 PM, Francesco Fragomeni
<fdfragomeni at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Loris,
>
> This particular experiment with the gallic acid toning was done on dry
> prints but only because I'm waiting on a replacement contact printing frame
> to arrive so I couldn't make fresh prints. I do suspect that the results
> will be different to some degree with fresh prints that haven't had the time
> to age or oxidize.
>
> I'm very interested in trying the lead acetate toning. The recipe I want to
> try calls for a 5% w/v lead acetate solution (cited in Mike Ware's book). I
> need to figure out where I can get the lead from. I haven't begun researched
> this yet so if you have any ideas of where I can get lead acetate from it
> would be helpful.
>
> I have cleared using citric acid in past experiments and I'll give that a
> go in my next round of experiments.
>
> Thanks for your insight!
>
> -Francesco
>
>
> On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 2:54 PM, Loris Medici <mail at loris.medici.name>wrote:
>
>> Francesco,
>>
>> - Are you toning fresh prints right after finishing rinse/development
>> step or do you tone completely finished (dry - oxidized - aged)
>> prints? (Maybe fresh prints could prove better; I was never waiting
>> the prints to dry / oxidize completely and age before toning... BTW,
>> please note that I never tried gallic acid toning, only tannic acid
>> and lead acetate. In any case, you "may" experience a little better
>> contrast / more open highlights that way; try and see if that works
>> better for you. ???)
>> - Do you clear(!) your cyanotypes before toning? (A weak ...say, 1
>> heaping dessert spoon per 2000ml... citric acid solution after
>> development and peroxide, but before the last rinse works pretty well
>> in clearing the print from unwanted iron residue = better contrast +
>> cleaner highlights. Plus, IME, citric acid clearing gives a greener
>> blue, and more green "may" give you results which are a little more
>> neutral. ???)
>>
>> Regards,
>> Loris.
>>
>>
>> 2011/9/20 Francesco Fragomeni <fdfragomeni at gmail.com>:
>>  > Hi Gordon,
>> >
>> > The 3 drops Nitric Acid recipe you've cited is the one I used last
>> night.
>> > This morning I took another look at the prints and found that they
>> changed
>> > to more of a cool grey but still retained a bit of the purple hue (but
>> much
>> > more pleasing in color then the purple cast that they had right when I
>> did
>> > the process). I also noticed that the gallic acid reduces contrast
>> > significantly and flattens out the image very noticeably. I think I may
>> > experiment some more with this to see if Ican improve the results. I
>> think
>> > if you take the reduction in contrast into consideration when making a
>> > negative and consequently the initial cyanotype print then there might
>> be a
>> > way achieve deeper blacks and proper contrast. Some testing will be
>> needed
>> > to figure this out.
>> >
>> > I haven't tried the ferrogallic process you mention but I'll look into
>> it
>> > and see if I can get all of the chemistry for it.
>> >
>> > I'll continue to experiment with the Nitric Acid recipe and I plan to do
>> > some experiments with the coffee toning recipe I just got to see if that
>> > does what I want without staining the paper base and bringing down the
>> > highlights.
>> >
>> > Anyway, thanks for the ideas.
>> >
>> > -Francesco
>> >
>> > On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 9:05 PM, Gordon J. Holtslander <gjh at shaw.ca>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Have you tried this:
>> >>
>> >> To convert Cyano to black tones:
>> >> Place print in solution of 3 drops Nitric Acid added to 1 litre water
>> for
>> >> two minutes transfer to bath of 14g Sodium Carbonate + 160cc water -
>> leave
>> >> till image disappears and then reappears with an orange tone transfer
>> print
>> >> to third solution of 14g Gallic Acid + 160cc water - black tones will
>> appear
>> >> wash 30 min.
>> >>
>> >> perhaps the ferrogallic process would work;
>> >> (from Photographic Facts and Formulas 1940)
>> >>
>> >> ferric chloride         50g
>> >> ferric suplphate (basic)        25g
>> >> tartaric acid                   45g
>> >> water                           500 ml
>> >>
>> >> Dissolve and add
>> >>
>> >> gelatin                         25g
>> >> water                           250cc
>> >>
>> >> soak gelatin for 30 minutes and dissolve
>> >>
>> >> Development details are not given though
>> >>
>> >> Gord
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 9/19/2011 9:14 PM, Francesco Fragomeni wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>  I received a coffee toning recipe a few minutes ago that I haven't
>> tried
>> >>> before. Examples look pleasing. I'll be trying this soon. Anyone have
>> >>> success with this?
>> >>>
>> >>> -Francesco
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Sep 19, 2011 at 7:32 PM, Francesco Fragomeni
>> >>> <fdfragomeni at gmail.com>wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Hi all,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I've been working for some time to achieve a black cyanotype but to
>> no
>> >>>> avail. I mean true black and grays, not the purples, eggplants, and
>> other
>> >>>> hues that can be achieved rather easily. I am 100% sure that it is
>> >>>> possible
>> >>>> because I have seen examples in private collections. I have also seen
>> a
>> >>>> few
>> >>>> rare examples (unsubstantiated) on the web but I've been unable to
>> >>>> initiate
>> >>>> conversations with anyone who has made one successfully. I've tried
>> most
>> >>>> of
>> >>>> the toning recipes and none of these achieve anything close to what
>> I'm
>> >>>> looking for plus they have a tendency to stain the paper base.
>> Tonight I
>> >>>> tried the nitric acid (nasty stuff so be careful)/ sodium carbonate/
>> >>>> gallic
>> >>>> acid recipe which is purportedly capable of rendering a black
>> cyanotype.
>> >>>> This recipe produced more of a dark grayish purple in the shadows and
>> a
>> >>>> much
>> >>>> more obvious purple cast to the highlights. Now this may be worth
>> >>>> experimenting with again because my tests were based on re-soaking
>> >>>> already
>> >>>> dry prints rather then making fresh ones which could possibly make a
>> >>>> difference (I couldn't make new prints because I'm waiting on a
>> printing
>> >>>> frame to arrive to replace my unusable one). Can anyone here offer
>> any
>> >>>> insight into how to achieve the illusive black cyanotype?? It would
>> be so
>> >>>> unbelievably appreciated. Thank you!
>> >>>>
>> >>>> -Francesco Fragomeni
>> >>>>
>> >>>> ______________________________**_________________
>> >>> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/**listinfo<
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>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Gordon J. Holtslander
>> >> gjh at shaw.ca
>> >> ______________________________**_________________
>> >> Alt-photo-process-list | http://altphotolist.org/**listinfo<
>> http://altphotolist.org/listinfo>
>>  >>
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