[alt-photo] Sawdust question

[Stella Schneider]

Marek,
I am curious to know how you use the sawdust to develop casein.
Stella


Message: 5
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 18:31:25 +0000
From: Marek Matusz <marekmatusz at hotmail.com>
To: alt photo <alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org>
Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history
Message-ID: <COL116-W546CCCF2428DB351E10E36BBDA0 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


Interesting two big NO.
 
I thought that Fresson formula is a closely guarded secret of the family and
is not known in a greater photographic community. Is the definite NO from
actually knowing the formula or guessing it from old literature?
 
Even if the original Fresson formula does not contain any casein I am still
intrigued by the saw dust development of casein prints as casein likes
forced development more then gum does. I use a sprayer bottle with good
results. In reality my casein prints contain some gum (so they are
technically not pure casein) as I use watercolour pigments, not dry powder
pigments.
 
I just need a break in the rain here to drag my saw and generate some
sawdust.
 
Marek
 

> From: mineurdecharbon at skynet.be
> To: alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org
> Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 19:44:30 +0200
> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history
> 
> I confirm no cas?in on the Fresson Carbon formula
> mineurdecharbon at skynet.be
> http://www.philippeberger.net/
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ian Hooper" <noisy at rogers.com>
> To: <alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 7:25 PM
> Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history
> 
> 
> > On 13/07/2012 1:58 PM, Marek Matusz wrote:
> >> Also, Marek, you were talking about Fresson maybe containing casein.
> > There is no casein in the real Fresson formula. None. ;)
> >
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------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 17:35:11 -0300
From: Ian Hooper <noisy at rogers.com>
To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list
	<alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org>
Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history
Message-ID: <50071DFF.7070706 at rogers.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed


I spoke with the Luis Nadeau and got the "no casein" answer.... but he 
still won't tell me all the secrets. (I'll try feeding him strong liquor 
next time :)

As far as I know, Luis has the only Fresson lab outside of the 
family-operated lab in France..

-Ian

On 18/07/2012 3:31 PM, Marek Matusz wrote:
> Interesting two big NO.
>   
> I thought that Fresson formula is a closely guarded secret of the family
and is not known in a greater photographic community. Is the definite NO
from actually knowing the formula or guessing it from old literature?
>   
>
>




------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2012 17:07:58 -0400
From: Christina Anderson <zphoto at montana.net>
To: The alternative photographic processes mailing list
	<alt-photo-process-list at lists.altphotolist.org>
Subject: [alt-photo] Re: casein history
Message-ID: <60FD5C48-353D-401A-838F-0386DC29C81E at montana.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252

Marek, Ian, Phillipe, and others,

I have no "in" with the Fresson family to know if casein is part of the
composition. I have numerous articles on the composition of Fresson paper,
but none say they know it for a fact, all say they are guessing it. Thus a
definitive answer can only be had from electron microscopy.

I know of two that have done that and nothing about casein has been
mentioned, supporting Phillipe and Ian. However, in talking with a
conservator, casein would be a hard substance to spot because of its various
components.

Here is the actual answer from the conservator:

"The identification of casein is not a trivial matter. It is a protein so
its FTIR signature is very close to both gelatin and albumin. There is a
chance to use the XRF (the elemental analysis) when looking for phosphorus
but that is also complicated due a limited sensitivity of the XRF for light
elements (like P etc.)?.."

The reason I brought up the initial issue, and Marek responded to it, was
that casein was proposed in an original patent of carbon tissue in
combination with gelatin. This was 1870, long before Artigue, Fresson, and
Leto papers, direct carbon tissues. I could go on and on about this
historical milieu but suffice it to say that it is a question to pose, or
outrule, at the very least, and I think a definitive "no" is somewhat
premature, given the secrecy of the formulas involved.

My GUESS is a "no" along with Ian and Philippe, but that is not supported by
evidence YET. The much more intriguing question is how much early carbon
transfer tissue contained casein and is it a viable option today? Or did
problems present themselves with casein in its early use that made the
Autotype company abandon its use after 1870? There are hints at casein's
problems in the literature, at any rate.

Chris


Christina Z. Anderson
christinaZanderson.com

On Jul 18, 2012, at 2:31 PM, Marek Matusz wrote:

> 
> Interesting two big NO.
> 
> I thought that Fresson formula is a closely guarded secret of the family
and is not known in a greater photographic community. Is the definite NO
from actually knowing the formula or guessing it from old literature?
> 
> Even if the original Fresson formula does not contain any casein I am
still intrigued by the saw dust development of casein prints as casein likes
forced development more then gum does. I use a sprayer bottle with good
results. In reality my casein prints contain some gum (so they are
technically not pure casein) as I use watercolour pigments, not dry powder
pigments.
> 
> I just need a break in the rain here to drag my saw and generate some
sawdust.
>