From: Sandy King (sanking@clemson.edu)
Date: 07/24/01-04:18:25 AM Z
Carl,
Regarding try versus drum processing of large film, I can process 3
sheets of 12X20 film in 3 separate drums on their own motor-bases
(total investment of $120 as this equipment is dirt cheap in today's
market), or four at a time in two 20X24 drums (two sheets per drum).
I believe the overall layout for this takes less tray space than you
would need for tray processing, development is about 15% faster, and
everything is done with the lights on after you load the film. Dump
the trays and go for the best, most consistent method of film
processing, rotary of course!!
Sandy
>Sandy,
>
>If the intermittent vertical agitation of the drum is what does the trick
>with ribbed drums, then Jobo is correct in recommending only Expert Drums
>(including print drums with an Expert material insert) for developing film
>with their processors. The lift/fill tower and cog lids that make the setup
>work semi-automatically (fully automatic with the top of the line models)
>isn't going to allow it. So for oversize films the answer seems to be a
>plain roller to let you pick the drum up and manipulate it during the run.
>
>Or three nice smooth trays so you can process 4-6 sheets at once. <s>
>
>---Carl
>--
> web site with picture galleries
> and workshop information at:
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~cweese/
>
>----------
>>From: Sandy King <sanking@clemson.edu>
>>To: "Carl Weese" <cweese@earthlink.net>
>>Subject: Re: bromide drag
>>Date: Mon, Jul 23, 2001, 8:45 AM
>>
>
>> Carl,
>>
>> I have a Job print drum but have not used it for film processing.
>> However, the internal ribbed structure of the Jobo is not very
>> dissimilar from that of the Beseler and Unicolor drums that I am
>> using. After considerable thought, notes on processing, and
>> inspection of developed negatives, I have come to the conclusion that
>> the culprit in the creation of steaks with ribbed drums is indeed
>> bromide. The good part is that one can use proper agitation patterns
>> to eliminate the problem.
>>
>> First, over the past two weeks I have developed some 60+ sheets of
>> 12X20 and 7X17 film in Unicolor and Beseler print drums, using about
>> equally ABC+ and PYROCAT as the film developer. Let me describe the
>> interior surface of these drums. The Beseler drum has ribs spaced
>> about every inch apart that run end to end, and one area in the
>> center of uneven surface where two parts are joined to make the drum.
>> The Unicolor drum has only ribs that run end to end.
>>
>> Method of Processing
>>
>> 1. Pre-soak for 5 minutes in plain water.
>> 2. Develop for required time on a rotating motor-base, with 10
>> seconds of very vigorous vertical agitation after the first minute of
>> agitation on the base, and at 2 minute intervals thereafter.
>> 3. Acid stop bath for 20 seconds.
>> 4. Fix in alkaline fixer.
>> 5. Final wash in tray.
>>
>>
>> Results: To this point I have seen no sign of unveven development on
>> any of the negatives processed in the Unicolor drum with the ribs
>> that run from end to end. Likewise I can see no sign of uneven
>> development with the Beseler drum that could correspond to end to end
>> rib placement. Also, none of the negatives processed in PYROCAT show
>> any sign of uneven development.
>>
>> However, two of the ABC+ negatives processed in the Beseler drum
>> shows a slight area of uneven development in exactly the spot that
>> corresponds to the line where the two parts of the drum are joined.
>> This is located in a very clear sky area of the negative and the line
>> of uneven development is faint but clearly perceptible. Now, on
>> recollection I recall that when these two sheets of film were
>> developed I was distracted and did not remove the drum from the
>> motor-base and do the first vertical, end-to-end, agitation until
>> after about 3 minutes of agitation on the motor base. Others may
>> correct my logic but this would appear to me to be very consistent
>> with the reasons for and the effects of bromide drag. BTW, bromide
>> drag has been reported with film development in print drums even with
> > non-staining developers *when no vertical end-to-end agitation
>> accompanies the rotating development of the motor-base.
>>
>> Based on my results with print drums and staining developers I am
>> confident that even development of negatives is possible when the
>> rotating agitation pattern of the motor-base is accompanied by an
>> early, regular and vigorous vertical pattern.
>>
>> Sandy King
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>Sandy,
>>>
>>>All large sheet rotary processing (over the size of 8x10 Expert Drums) that
>>>I did used 16x20 and 20x24 Jobo print drums with cog lids, run on a Jobo
>>>machine with "lift". All got a presoak of five minutes in a weak Kodalk
>>>solution, a generous amount of ABC+ developer, a two minute soak after
>>>fixing in fresh Kodalk solution. Some were washed with changes of water in
>>>the drum others removed and washed in trays. The streaking was intermittent,
>>>not consistent, and I don't know if all streaked negs were washed one way or
>>>the other. The exact same procedure worked perfectly in Expert Drums for
>>>4x5, 5x7, and 8x10, but not in the print drums with 7x17 and 12x20.---Carl
>>>--
>>> web site with picture galleries
>>> and workshop information at:
>>>
>>> http://home.earthlink.net/~cweese/
>>>
>>>----------
>>>>From: Sandy King <sanking@clemson.edu>
>>> >To: alt-photo-process-l@skyway.usask.ca
>>>>Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: bromide drag
>>>>Date: Sun, Jul 22, 2001, 3:39 AM
>>>>
>>>
>>>> Carl,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>In any event, I am curious as to what print drum (or drums) you were
>>>>>using when >you encountered the pattern of streaks that corresponded
>>> >>to the interior >structure of the print drum? In fact, if you can
>>>>>recall the exact procedures >you used that lead to the streaks I
>>>>>would be very interested in knowing it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Two points I would really like to know re: the streaking problem you
>>>> expereinced with ribbed drums is, 1) did you pre-soak the film (if
>>>> so, how and for how long), and 2) what kind of motor-base agitation
>>>> did they receive, and secondarily, did you give the tubes up and down
>>>> (vertical) agitation in addition to the fore and aft agitation they
>>>> received on the motor base.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sandy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>X-Time: <200107221316.f6MDGp314742>
>>>>>>Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 09:19:51 -0400
>>>>>>Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: bromide drag
>>>>>>From: "Carl Weese" <cweese@earthlink.net>
>>>>>>To: "Sam Wang (by way of Sandy King)" <stwang@CLEMSON.EDU>
>>>>>>X-Priority: 3
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Sandy,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In fact my first thought when I encountered this was that the
>>>>>>fault was in
>>>>>>the film, until I realized that the pattern of the streaks
>>>>>>perfectly matched
>>>>>>the interior structure of the print drum.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Expert drums have a slight but distinct (and carefully
>>>>>>designed) texture as
>>>>>>well as small grooves, but even so I've found it a good idea to wet load
>>>>>>after soaking in a tray when using ABC+. I've never used plain
>>>>>>smooth-sided
>>>>>>tubes.---Carl
>>>>>>--
>>>>>> web site with picture galleries
>>>>>> and workshop information at:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://home.earthlink.net/~cweese/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----------
>>>>>>>From: Sam Wang <stwang@clemson.edu> (by way of Sandy King)
>>>>>> >To: cweese@earthlink.net, alt-photo-process-l@skyway.usask.ca
>>>>>>>Subject: Fwd: Re: bromide drag
>>>>>>>Date: Sat, Jul 21, 2001, 12:47 PM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Carl,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I recall an earlier conversation with you regarding the *sneaky*
>>>>>>> streaking phenomenon. Very curious. I have not experienced this, but
>>>>>>> I don't do the heavy metal thing and it could result from a
>>>>>>> particular spike of light you get with pt/pd.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just out of curiosity, have you satisfied yourself that the problem
>>>>>>> you had with print drums and ABC+ was not a result of some internal
>>>>>>> defect in the film? I have seen some strange things on film
>>>>>>> emulsions that had nothing to do with my processing technique.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Finally, I am really baffled that one can get decent results with
>>>>>>> staining developers with smooth-walled drums like the Expert Drums
> >>>>>> and from BTZS and home-made plastic tubes, which are also
>>>>>>> smooth-walled. Intuitive logic would suggest that drums with ribs
>>>>>>> that allow flow over the back of the film would perform much better
>>>>>>> than the smooth-walled tubes where the film remains virtually glued
>>>>>>> to the inside of the tube and little or no flow can take place.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sandy King
>>>>
>>
>>
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