From: Christina Z. Anderson (zphoto@montana.net)
Date: 10/05/01-08:40:14 AM Z
<snips, below, from Jonathan Bailey and Judy Siegel>
Judy said:
> > The "mordancage" in the old literature & as practiced (just to add
> > confusion) by a man named Mariage is somewhat different from what is
being
> > CALLED mordancage by a bunch of upstarts like Jon Bailey & Chris
Anderson
> > & Elizabeth(?) Opalnik & for all I know Jean Paul Sudre.
>
Jon said:
> I believe I detect some dry humor....
>
I say:
I am flattered to be even possibly included with the likes of Elizabeth
and Jon, but really, I am nowhere near their category.
Jon said:
> But, in the interest of clarity - and at the risk of my being
repetitiously
> redundant: the info about this process I've posted has its origins with
the
> forenamed JP Sudre - as disseminated through one or more of his students
> (i.e. Craig Stevens. E. Opalenick and/or Pierre Louis Martin). It is
> referred to by each of them as "Mordancage - as perfected by JP Sudre."
The
> name suggests, to me at least, that this is a particular process practiced
> by an individual....
>
I say:
Agreed.
Judy said:
> > Well,the REAL mordancage uses a bleach formula on a print that is
> > DEVELOPED but NOT FIXED. Therefore there is metallic silver (the black
> > image) as well as remaining silver halide (unexposed original emulsion
not
> > yet washed away).
I say:
To confound this issue, Judy, Ilford Monochrome practice book, in
calling it bleach etch, also suggests to do it between developer and fix. I
have done both, and both produce the same results, as I said in my post a
number of months back. So whether you call it the fancier French name of
mordancage or the plain old English bleach/etch, both processes do the same
thing: they eat away the darker areas of the emulsion so that they either
float off or veil, attached to the highlights, and the highlights "etch", so
upon redevelopment, which all the processes called by all the names do, the
highlights will accept developing to go dark as in a negative image, or the
highlights, if not rubbed off, will still remain positive. Both are
options, as I detailed some months ago--a positive or a negative--with this
process. To rub or not to rub, that is the question. The Coote process also
recommends rubbing in 120 degree water.
>
>Jon said:
With all due respect - REAL SHCMEAL!! (wink)
>
I say:
Agreed. No, actually, how about this: I'll call it the "Real Chris Anderson
Method". No...somehow my name is just too...boring. The Bailey Process
sounds much better. That's IT!!
>
> Jon said:
The mordancage Sudre practiced and taught, as I've said before, is in all
> likelihood based upon the historically "real" etch/bleach-slash-mordancage
> process(es) - and without a doubt holds interest as a process with which
to
> experiment - or perhaps (for us anarchists), as a variation on Sudre's
> technique....
I agree. Furthermore, my whole reason for "stepping out" of the norm of Jon
Bailey, and Coote's, formula for mordancage and bleach etch, and even
THINKING of trying the copper sulfate is because it was mentioned on this
list to substitute the one for the other. So, being the trusting soul that
I am, I did so. In front of 28 students. Hey, I don't mind looking inept
in front of students--they love it. And luckily I had backup chloride
formula. But I did need to report back to the list that this does NOT work
in combo with acetic acid and hydrogen peroxide. Period. I hazard a wild
guess that even lowering the amount of copper sulfate will not work. I even
added more hydrogen peroxide and it did not work. I even added some 140
VOLUME hydrogen peroxide and it didn't work. It doesn't work. It MUST,
though, work with other chemicals in tandem and THAT is what I am searching
for, not who is more correct on this list than another, who has more
historical truth, or whose method is the REAL method, but an answer to the
original dilemma of HOW to make a cheaper copper sulfate do the same trick
as the more expensive copper chloride.
I would love to read the original Mariage article and so if you, Judy,
have a reference that somehow I could locate, then I will try to find it.
Or, if you could possibly dig up your formulae for your copper sulfate
bleachings then I could test them in tandem with the copper chloride
solutions. I'm willing to spend time, energy, and money on this because I
happen to agree with Jon, that it is a blast of a process. The students
loved it.
Jon, I do have two questions tho: one selenium toned their mordancage
yesterday and it immediately bleached out in the solution. Any answers?
Also, do you have your students fix their prints after redevelopment? I had
one students visibly darken over a period of time. These were all with
previously fixed and dried prints.
Actually, perhaps this whole mordancage discussion is better on the
pure silver list than alt process because I don't even know if it qualifies
as an alt process, even tho it is in Christopher James' book...so please
excuse if this is the case.
Chris
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