From: Shannon Stoney (shannonstoney@earthlink.net)
Date: 12/27/02-05:06:02 PM Z
Judy wrote:
> Peeing in public on public or private property is a misdemeanour in my
> town.
So, were the men that you photographed peeing on the street in danger of
being arrested?
I'm just saying: if men can get away with it, women should be able to also.
Seems to me that that's what feminism is all about, isn't it?
> Where I live you take possession by having a deed stamped at city hall
> with your name on it. And you pay the %$#@T^&*()^%$#@ taxes which just
> went up 18.49% a year. If I could "take possession" by peeing, would
> certainly be an incentive, but that has not happened within recorded
> history.
So, do you disagree with Jack about that idea that men look at the landscape
in terms of possessing it and that they metaphorically take possession of it
by urinating on it?
Art is often about metaphors, so it seems ok to me to discuss metaphorical
possession as well as legal possession on this list.
>> ... Also urinating
>> erect can be done discreetly almost anywhere.
>
> Shannon, for more reasons than I can or wish to declare, I think this is
> nonsense, or myth, or fantasy, although i suggest a few reasons above.
OK, by discreet I mean, as discreetly as a man can do it. They have to
unzip and expose themselves to pee outside; women can do it without exposing
anything, merely by putting your feet about two feet apart and lifting your
skirt not even to your knees. Try it, you'll like it! Socks and shoes are
not at risk. It's really much more discreet than what men do, which you say
you have photographed.
Thus it seems to me unfair that a woman peeing outside in this discreet
manner should be more at risk of being castigated for committing a terrible
offense or indignity than a man doing it. This seems to me to be a relic of
Victorian England when respectable women were hardly allowed out of the
house without an escort. It is assumed that women won't BE outside long
enough to have to pee outside. But we do. Therefore we should be able to do
it discreetly and with a certain amount of dignity, like a man. That's all
I'm saying.
Women landscape photographers work outside a lot, so we need this basic
right. The dual purpose changing bag/skirt seems to me to be an idea whose
time has come.
> Certainly if you pee with or without lifting your skirt on my premises,
> I'm going to declare you out of your mind and respond accordingly.
Do you allow men to pee in your yard?
>
> As noted, I was pointing to the direct meanings in the here and now,
> rather than parsing the anthopological, historical,mythical or global
> variants.
But these anthropological, historical, mythical and global meanings are
relevant to art. Indeed they are what gives any image its richness.
>
> Oh, so you think she's dignified or fierce when she's peeing on the floor
> at the behest of photographer husband?
How do we know that she peed on the floor at his command? Maybe he took her
picture at HER command.
>
> She is CLAIMING nothing, CHALLENGING nothing, she is totally
> photographer-trained and obedient. And talk about *domesticated*, does she
> exist off the premises?
She certainly does, and your description of her as "obedient" seems like a
huge assumption to make about Edith. Do you know her? Ann Tucker does, and
your description of Edith does not match hers.
But, I think we should talk about what the photograph represents, or could
be interpreted to mean, rather than make any assertions about Edith
personally.
I don't know her and don't know anything about her relationship to Emmett or
to the camera or to photography or art. But an image of a woman peeing like
that is open to many interpretations, Jungian, archetypal, mythological,
political, historical, sociological, etc. IT seems to me that that's what
criticism IS.
>> You can be territorial and nurturing at the same time. Peeing on the ground
>> doesn't only mark your territory; it also nourishes the ground. Urine has a
>> lot of nitrogen in it. It's a good idea to pee on your compost pile from
>> time to time. I know people who have converted huge piles of carbonaceous
>> sawdust into nice rich black compost by peeing on it every day.
>
> Oh good lord... and some guy lost in the desert in his car, saved his pee
> and put it on his arms and legs when he neared death from dehydration.
> (I read this in a Readers Digest first person account many years ago.)
> Does this mean we should bathe in pee?
Again, the point is metaphorical: urine as a fertilizing influence, a
common theme throughout human history. It is perfectly valid to bring up
the meanings that urine, or blood, or feces, or saliva or any other bodily
fluid has had in history or myth, when discussing photographs that contain
them. You could call it the iconography of urine.
>
>> Also this gesture of Edith's--lifting her skirt to urinate--is the
>> archetypal gesture of Baubo, a Greek goddess known for her ability to make
>> fun of pomposity and over-seriousness by lifting her skirts and making
>> obscene noises and gestures.
>
> Right, try that at the board meeting and get elected partner. I can just
> picture it.
We're talking about art here. Certain subjects that are taboo in the
corporate world are perfectly germane, even essential, in the world of art
and art criticism, including Baubo and her activities.
>
>> ... She is the one who finally made Demeter laugh
>> after Demeter had grieved the loss of Persephone for too long; and Demeter's
>> laughter caused summer to return to the earth. Baubo is a trickster heroine
>> like Jack in the Jack Tales, or like Coyote in Native American stories, or
>> like Huck in Huckleberry Finn.
>
> Sorry Shannon... this is not the time of the gods, and Demeter is on
> sabbatical or absent without leave, and if she were here would NOT be in
> charge.
How do you know? Doesn't summer come every year, on time?
--shannon
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