From: Judy Seigel (jseigel@panix.com)
Date: 12/28/02-01:43:21 AM Z
On Fri, 27 Dec 2002, Shannon Stoney wrote:
> Judy wrote:
>
> > Peeing in public on public or private property is a misdemeanour in my
> > town.
>
> So, were the men that you photographed peeing on the street in danger of
> being arrested?
If a cop had happened by, perhaps -- depends what the level of cop-ism is
in the city at that moment -- and what else is going on... But what's that
got to do with it? Does that make it any less or more revolting to pee
into the corner of Kentucky Fried Chicken with people eating on the other
side of the glass (I have that picture) if the man does or doesn't risk
arrest?
But throughout, you're waffling back and forth between reality and "art"
in a way that cancels your "points." Amusing perhaps, but not convincing,
at least not to me.
If I point out that something is ridiculous, even miserable, you say well
this is just metaphor, but the next line you're trying to attach to
reality. We may put all sorts of things into art or metaphor we don't
actually live, or wish to live.
> I'm just saying: if men can get away with it, women should be able to also.
> Seems to me that that's what feminism is all about, isn't it?
I don't know that a man could get away with peeing in that spot as well as
Edith did, so your point is moot. She was so very *cute.* A man would not
have been. And no, I don't see "feminism" as "getting away with stuff." I
see it first of all as being self directed and secondly as "judged" by
same standards... where it counts !
But I don't see it as either practical or advisable to imitate the lowest
common denominator. And frankly, none of the men I know pisses in public
or in the middle of a barn, at least that I'm aware of. Why in the world
would they pee INSIDE the barn when there's the whole outdoors? Just to
be nasty? Being deliberately nasty is adolescent. OK in adolescents, but
not past the age of, say, 30.
True, if they have to take a leak in the middle of the city men can do it
more easily, but in some respects, anatomy is destiny. But I thought of
you Christmas night -- or 2 AM the next morning. I had to go out to mail a
letter I wanted to get the morning pickup (yeah, my taxes); it was
freezing, a nasty wind off the river, and I was wearing the caftan-like
thing I'd had on all day. (With, yes, UNDERWEAR!) Well, I tell you, I had
an ankle length HEAVY coat on, and it was only 3 doors down to the
mailbox, but that wind whipped up the skirt so cruelly that I thought I
would be frozen gelid.
Then it occurred to me -- I do not think women wear skirts in very cold
climates -- at least not without serious underwear. For instance the
World Book shows Eskimos (so-called in our 1956 edition) wearing skirts
with SERIOUS leggings under them. Are the leggings open to pee through?
That strikes me as pretty gross, too. And I think all of this talk about
peeing outdoors and claiming territory, etc. is a rural fantasy that may
or may not apply in the rural, most definitely not here.
> > Where I live you take possession by having a deed stamped at city hall
> > with your name on it. And you pay the %$#@T^&*()^%$#@ taxes which just
> > went up 18.49% a year. If I could "take possession" by peeing, would
> > certainly be an incentive, but that has not happened within recorded
> > history.
>
> So, do you disagree with Jack about that idea that men look at the landscape
> in terms of possessing it and that they metaphorically take possession of it
> by urinating on it?
Those are two things -- ideas of possession, and metaphors of possession
in terms of urine. There are a lot of things, by the way, that dogs do
that the men I am acquainted with don't do or not as far as I know. What
dogs on city streets do most visibly and eagerly of course is smell each
other's butts. I haven't seen that among humans at all, though I may live
a deracinated existence. As for peeing to take possession, as I've
indicated, I do not know of any such event here... perhaps they do that in
San Francisco. Or if they did, would be because they heard about it and
were being cute. As noted, the men AND women I know prefer paper.
> Art is often about metaphors, so it seems ok to me to discuss metaphorical
> possession as well as legal possession on this list.
>
> >> ... Also urinating
> >> erect can be done discreetly almost anywhere.
> >
> > Shannon, for more reasons than I can or wish to declare, I think this is
> > nonsense, or myth, or fantasy, although i suggest a few reasons above.
>
> OK, by discreet I mean, as discreetly as a man can do it. They have to
> unzip and expose themselves to pee outside; women can do it without exposing
> anything, merely by putting your feet about two feet apart and lifting your
> skirt not even to your knees. Try it, you'll like it! Socks and shoes are
> not at risk. It's really much more discreet than what men do, which you say
> you have photographed.
Shannon, I invite you to do this on a New York city street. It's just one
of those things I consider it desirable to avoid, especially since I wear
jeans 99% of the time.
> Thus it seems to me unfair that a woman peeing outside in this discreet
> manner should be more at risk of being castigated for committing a terrible
> offense or indignity than a man doing it. This seems to me to be a relic of
Actually I don't know that this is the case -- something else you're
carving to order. I would GUESS that a woman peeing on the street in NYC
would be more leniently dealt with -- tho I'd say again that this is
something folks who value a certain dignity do not get CAUGHT doing,
either gender.
> Victorian England when respectable women were hardly allowed out of the
> house without an escort. It is assumed that women won't BE outside long
Oh lordy again-- were you there? Women couldn't move because they were
so tightly trussed into those corsets -- so tightly that their uteruses
dropped out through their vaginas... yes, prolapsed uterus was a major
illness during that period. But all sorts of things were done and accepted
that we are rather shocked by today -- but Victorian women's behavior was
marked distinctly by social class. The working class women did all sorts
of heavy outdoor labor ( "fish wives" and farmers). And there's been a lot
of myth propagated about all of them.
> enough to have to pee outside. But we do. Therefore we should be able to do
> it discreetly and with a certain amount of dignity, like a man. That's all
> I'm saying.
> Women landscape photographers work outside a lot, so we need this basic
> right. The dual purpose changing bag/skirt seems to me to be an idea whose
> time has come.
Right. Just don't mix up which you're up to. But that still doesn't
explain why Edith peed on the barn floor... She presumably had other
options. She or he thought it was cute. I didn't.
> > Certainly if you pee with or without lifting your skirt on my premises,
> > I'm going to declare you out of your mind and respond accordingly.
>
> Do you allow men to pee in your yard?
Of course not. Yuck. Truth to tell, I doubt if I could PAY a man to pee
in this yard, surrounded by 6 or 7 story buildings with windows. And why
should they? I don't know a soul fixated on peeing outdoors-- at least
not that I'm aware of. Any one of us will as needed, but we all have to,
so to speak, go with the flow. You've got to remember that in the city,
pee on concrete doesn't get biodegraded so quick... it stinks. We have
enough stink from dog pee.
However, I don't GENERALLY demand the same privileges as men. Which is to
say, I'm quite aware of some MAJOR advantages I've had as a woman. Most
specifically when photographing in Times Square. I was able to take quite
a few pictures with my giggly babe act that men photographers I know
said they would have been killed for. There was a man there photographing
during the same years -- of course i don't know what he shot -- but I
heard he was knocked down 3 times. I was only lightly pushed once.
And there are many other cases where I get away with things as a woman.
For instance a couple of times I have been forced by a higher power to
kick a dent in a marauding car with my wooden clog. I believe as a man I
would have been destroyed. And so forth.
So the right to pee on the street with my skirt held high is simply not
very major on my wish list.
> > As noted, I was pointing to the direct meanings in the here and now,
> > rather than parsing the anthopological, historical,mythical or global
> > variants.
>
> But these anthropological, historical, mythical and global meanings are
> relevant to art. Indeed they are what gives any image its richness.
But as noted, you skip between art and reality to suit, which doesn't
promote whatever argument you're making, IMO.
> > Oh, so you think she's dignified or fierce when she's peeing on the floor
> > at the behest of photographer husband?
>
> How do we know that she peed on the floor at his command? Maybe he took her
> picture at HER command.
Oh again lordy -- I think it was STUPID. To me it said this babe is a
twit. I thought the STATEMENT was, I pee on the floor in broad daylight.
Whoopee.
> > She is CLAIMING nothing, CHALLENGING nothing, she is totally
> > photographer-trained and obedient. And talk about *domesticated*, does she
> > exist off the premises?
>
> She certainly does, and your description of her as "obedient" seems like a
> huge assumption to make about Edith. Do you know her? Ann Tucker does, and
> your description of Edith does not match hers.
She exists only as HIS model in her persona. For all we know he is
henpecked to a farethewell, but I'm talking about her ROLE IN ART. Don't
go pulling "reality" the moment it suits.
> >> You can be territorial and nurturing at the same time. Peeing on the ground
> >> doesn't only mark your territory; it also nourishes the ground. Urine has a
> >> lot of nitrogen in it. It's a good idea to pee on your compost pile from
> >> time to time. I know people who have converted huge piles of carbonaceous
> >> sawdust into nice rich black compost by peeing on it every day.
AFAIK, it doesn't nourish concrete.
> > Oh good lord... and some guy lost in the desert in his car, saved his pee
> > and put it on his arms and legs when he neared death from dehydration.
> > (I read this in a Readers Digest first person account many years ago.)
> > Does this mean we should bathe in pee?
>
> Again, the point is metaphorical: urine as a fertilizing influence, a
> common theme throughout human history. It is perfectly valid to bring up
> the meanings that urine, or blood, or feces, or saliva or any other bodily
> fluid has had in history or myth, when discussing photographs that contain
> them. You could call it the iconography of urine.
Again, you switch at will.. Tell it to the cop when he arrests you -- or
the man: Excuse me, I'm just doing a metaphor to mark territory. This here
space between the parked cars is MINE !!
> >> Also this gesture of Edith's--lifting her skirt to urinate--is the
> >> archetypal gesture of Baubo, a Greek goddess known for her ability to make
> >> fun of pomposity and over-seriousness by lifting her skirts and making
> >> obscene noises and gestures.
> >
> > Right, try that at the board meeting and get elected partner. I can just
> > picture it.
>
> We're talking about art here. Certain subjects that are taboo in the
> corporate world are perfectly germane, even essential, in the world of art
> and art criticism, including Baubo and her activities.
Now we're talking art again.
> >> ... She is the one who finally made Demeter laugh
> >> after Demeter had grieved the loss of Persephone for too long; and Demeter's
> >> laughter caused summer to return to the earth. Baubo is a trickster heroine
> >> like Jack in the Jack Tales, or like Coyote in Native American stories, or
> >> like Huck in Huckleberry Finn.
> >
> > Sorry Shannon... this is not the time of the gods, and Demeter is on
> > sabbatical or absent without leave, and if she were here would NOT be in
> > charge.
>
> How do you know? Doesn't summer come every year, on time?
Actually not. Sometimes it comes in April or September. We've even had
June in January.
Judy
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