Re: An exchange with Mike Ware (on Argyrotype)

Hi Loris,

thank for asking Mike directly. Correct me if I'm wrong but from what Mike said below "all" iron process interact with the paper to varying degree and those he suggest are the one with which he had better results (I assume). IMHO this part is very clear, at least to me. I would add, there are certainly many more papers that can be used with iron based process. Here, in Montreal I don't have access to any of the one suggested on his web site, at least they are not in stock at my favorate store but I wouldn't be surprise if the paper you use for other iron base process would work just as well for argyrotype though we never until we try.

Thanks again and my best regards
Yves

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Loris Medici
  To: alt-photo-process-l@sask.usask.ca
  Cc: 'Mike Ware'
  Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2006 2:43 PM
  Subject: RE: An exchange with Mike Ware (on Argyrotype)

  Dear Mike,

  First of all thank you very much for the long, very informative and clarifying reply.

  I don't think anyone is trying to put you and/or your process into the pillory (that would be extremely daring considering your knowledge / expertise). I'm indeed sad if you take it that way - my intention was absolutely not offending you (won't talk for Clay but I'm pretty sure he also wasn't trying to trash / offend you in any ways). Assuming one is having satisfaction from this is a little bit aggressive. This is my method of learning / reasoning: asking questions, making assumptions / conclusions (that should be corrected if they're wrong - providing the anti-thesis / correct information of course - or if they're somehow baseless - which is a very rare case, since I consider myself as a pretty reasonable / logical person) based on what I currently know / have access to, even speculating sometimes (but always based on something) in order to stimulate knowledgeable people / experts to contribute to the discussion with useful / correct information. Please be not offended, you may not like my style but I assure you it's a very effective way of learning for me.

  Coming to the so called "Aunt Sally" syndrome (I don't have any cues on what it is, I can only guess - since I'm not a native English speaker), I don't know why but there's definitely a common understanding / conception (a wrong one of couse, in the light of what you wrote below) that Argyrotype is somehow more achival. Your points are well taken and I aknowledge that you don't make such a claim. But I somehow got such an impression (which your reply proved that it was a wrong one). Probably this is due to the fact that English is my not native languate (it's the 4th one actually) and Turkish (my most used language) is quite a subtle language (similar to Russian and Japanese - but not in that extent) so I'm always looking for 2nd meanings / implications (situation shows this isn't a good practice - but it's hard to quit habits). Many message in the archives shows that also pretty knowledgeable / respectful / expert persons (who are native English speakers) also took Argyrotype as a more stable / archival process (for the moment I don't prefer to provide links to the messages - you can find them by making a simple search if you like). So, I guess it's not a mistake specific to me only - pretty relieving. Could it be your way of making statements - not individually but when considering them altogether - exhibit an undertone? Don't know - anyway it's not an issue for this message since you clearly stated you absolutely don't make such an implication / claim. But it's a fact that people took it that way.

  Clearing with citric acid is quite common for iron processes I think (I do it with all iron processes that I practice: cyanotype, vandyke & pt/pd). It's a second nature thing. Pretty logical to me (doing it with all the iron processes) since citric acid dissolves iron compounds (thanks to Sandy for opening my eyes with all those warnings considering image stability in his Kallitype article).

  The double coating observation was about Vandyke not Argyrotype (I had clearly stated that I didn't tried Argyrotype yet). Since you're saying "when correctly done / processed single coated Argyrotype gives good Dmax" will probably try it in the future. I'm just intimidated a little bit because we don't have much paper choices here in Istanbul - and a paper finicky process is the last thing I want. Of couse I'm not talking about printing on inferior / non archival papers here.

  Salt prints were put into the message because the final image is same as Vandyke and Argyrotype. I was approaching to the subject by the side of the processed / finished print.

  In conclusion I think this exchange was very revealing and positive. Thanks again for the valuable information you provided and for the clarifications.

  Best regards,
  Loris.

  P.S. Will contact you about Istanbul privately.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  From: Loris Medici [mailto:mail@loris.medici.name]
  Sent: 21 Mart 2006 Salı 19:00
  To: alt-photo-process-l@sask.usask.ca
  Cc: 'Mike Ware'
  Subject: An exchange with Mike Ware (on Argyrotype)

  Please start reading from the bottom.

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Mike Ware [mailto:mike@mikeware.co.uk]
  Sent: 21 Mart 2006 Salı 17:21
  To: Loris Medici
  Subject: Re: Argyrotype: Better achival stability? How and why?
  Importance: High

  Greetings Loris,

  It's very good to hear from you again. Thank you for acquainting me
  with
  one of the current debates on the Alt Photo Process List - I
  desubscribed from it long ago.

  The issue you relate is a perfect example of what I characterise as the
  'Aunt Sally' List Syndrome:-

  1) Attribute to someone a statement that they never made, and then

  2) Derive great satisfaction from seeing them publicly pilloried!

  I have never stated that "Argyrotypes have distinctly better archival
  properties than VDB or salt prints".

  For the benefit of those who cannot access the WWW, here is exactly
  what
  I say on my web pages relating to the permanence of these processes:

  http://www.mikeware.co.uk/mikeware/Argyrotype_Process.html

  " The inherent problem of the iron-based silver processes lies in the
  danger of leaving residual ferric iron in the print - to its ultimate
  undoing, because iron(III) will oxidise silver with consequent
  degradation of the image. It is this problem that the Argyrotype
  process
  has been designed to avert." ....

  "Image Permanence

  Like any colloidal silver image, especially those on plain paper
  unprotected by a colloid binder layer, an Argyrotype is inevitably
  rather susceptible to attack by oxidising acids and sulphur-containing
  substances. However the residual iron and silver in the unexposed areas
  should be very low and image stability and lightfastness are good."

  I don't see how that can be interpreted as my claiming that
  "Argyrotypes
  have distinctly better archival properties than VDB or salt prints".

  Indeed, I'm not aware of any experimental work that has been done to
  establish the relative archival permanence of these various prints,
  e.g.
  by accelerated ageing tests, but would be very glad to hear of any real
  scientific (as opposed to anecdotal) evidence in this respect.

  Your procedure of wet processing Van Dykes in 2% citric acid seems
  sound, as a means of eliminating the iron(III) residue. Is this now the
  generally accepted method? And what about kallitypes?

  It's significant, Loris, that you admit this process does not yield an
  adequate Dmax in one coat. If so, then that - to me (a very lazy
  animal)
  - is a chemically inadequate process. I have never had to double coat
  argyrotype (if Clay Harmon does, then there is something wrong either
  with his sensitizer, his paper, or his procedure). You can judge for
  yourself whether the single coat gives an adequate Dmax from the
  (rather
  crudely
  scanned) jpegs on my Web gallery:

  http://www.mikeware.co.uk/mikeware/galleries.html

  The only advantage I would claim for argyrotype is simply its ease and
  user-friendliness: it is a 'one bottle' sensitizer with a good shelf
  life, single coating, and very simple processing. Those who find making
  the sensitizer difficult (I cannot understand why - but I'm a chemist),
  can buy it commercially, I believe. (BTW, I receive no commissions, and
  am in no way involved with any manufacturer, their quality controls -
  or
  the lack of
  them.)

  I make no apologies whatsoever for specifying only the best possible
  paper, having experienced the inconsistencies of anything less. While
  accepting that print-making on chip wrappers or old grocery bags may be
  a valid artistic activity, those who choose to do so can't expect fine,
  lasting results. With the iron-based processes, the paper is a reactive
  component in the chemistry - it's not just an inert substrate. I am
  continually astonished by those practitioners who expect the iron-based
  photochemistry to work on any paper - they might just as well expect it
  to work with any chemical.

  Your discussion also encompassed the Salt print; this is an instance of
  the 'Muddy the Pool' List Syndrome:-

  1) Be sure to introduce at least one irrelevance,

  2) It will complicate the debate and confuse the debaters!

  Here beginneth the digression:

  The susceptibility of salt prints to fading is largely due to the
  retention of thiosulphate, and other thiosalts, which ultimately
  convert
  the silver to silver sulphide. (I have published an entire book on this
  subject). The cases are not really comparable, because the fixation of
  a
  salt print requires the removal of a large amount of unexposed silver
  chloride which is insoluble in water, hence a concentrated thiosulphate
  bath is commonly used.

  The argyrotype and Van Dyke use water-soluble silver salts, most of
  which simply wash out in the processing. Only a very dilute
  thiosulphate
  bath is needed, for a short time, to remove any traces of insoluble
  silver salts left by impurities (e.g. chloride in the water). Residual
  thiosulphate is much less of a problem in consequence.

  Moreover, the salt print should contain no iron at any stage.

  The two cases, despite both yielding images in silver, are not really
  comparable in regard to their problems of impermanence.

  Here endeth the digression.

  My personal view is that silver (especially the nanoparticle form in a
  plain paper print with no protective colloidal organic 'binder') is not
  really a very good substance for permanent images, owing to its
  reactivity.

  Modern makers of Kallitypes and Van Dykes seem to agree that toning
  with
  platinum, palladium or gold is essential to their preservation, and I
  agree that argyrotype is in the same category. If permanence is an
  important issue, then I prefer to make my images entirely in platinum,
  palladium, or gold in the first place, rather than build my house on
  sandy foundations.

  I am quite agreeable, Loris, if you wish to forward this response to
  the
  List or elsewhere - but please don't edit it!

  All good wishes; I hope to make it to your fabulous city of Istanbul
  someday,

  Mike

  --
  Dr Michael J Ware
  20 Bath Road
  Buxton
  Derbyshire
  SK17 6HH
  UK

  tel : +44 (0)1298 78604
  email: mike@mikeware.co.uk
  WWW : http://www.mikeware.co.uk

  On 21-03-06 12:12, Loris Medici wrote

> Dear Mike,
>
> I don't know if you read alt-photo-process-l list but let me pass you
> an exchange we made with Clay Harmon regarding Argyrotype process
  (see

> below for details)... It's obvious I don't have much chemistry
> (especially photographic chemistry) knowledge, but combining my
> limited knowledge with the points you make in your Argyrotype
> Practical Instructions article we both (Clay and I that is) came to
> the conclusion that Argyrotype is not necessarily more archival
> compared to Salt Print or Vandyke as long as they're processed
> correctly, leaving no silver nitrate (ny rinsing well) and/or iron
> compounds (by dissolving them with citric acid) in the paper.
>
> I would be glad if you make some comments and/or explanations
> (preferrably in the list) letting us better understand the advantages
> of Argyrotype in the longevity domain.
>
> Best regards,
> Loris.
>
> P.S. Actually in my first message I made an assumption as following:
> since the silver dissolving effect of silver nitrate is kept out,
> colloidal silver particles formed with Argyrotype may be slightly
> larger compared to colloidal silver particles formed with Salt Print
> and Vandyke (hence the color difference), therefore it may show a
> slight advantage over them - but odds are this is a marginal
  advantage

> rather than being a strong / practical one. In fact, colloidal silver
> is colloidal silver..
>
> ----Original Message-----
> From: Clay [mailto:wcharmon@wt.net]
> Sent: 20 Mart 2006 Pazartesi 16:05
> To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
> Subject: Re: Mixing argyrotypes
>
>
> Well, as I said, I did Argyrotype for a while and then ditched it
> because its fussiness overwhelmed its supposed advantages. FWIW, I
> found that it did better with double coating, similar to what works
> best for me when doing Van Dyke.
>
> I'm not enough of a chemist to be able to comment intelligently about
> his chemical arguments about the archival advantages of Argyrotype.
  My

> 'aw-shucks, I'm just a simple caveman' impression of his arguments is
> the same as yours: it is still colloidal silver that ends up in the
> paper fibers, and there would seem to be no particular advantage of
> one over the other in terms of archival stability.
>
> Clay
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Loris Medici [mailto:mail@loris.medici.name]
> Sent: 20 Mart 2006 Pazartesi 13:26
> To: alt-photo-process-l@sask.usask.ca
> Subject: RE: Mixing argyrotypes
>
>
> I can't say I understand well the remarks made by Mike Ware in his
> paper "The Argyrotype Process", section "An Alternative Silver Salt".
> (See it @
  http://www.mikeware.co.uk/mikeware/Argyrotype_Process.html.)
>
> He says:
>
> 1) Silver nitrate is an oxidiser; it oxidizes the colloidal silver
> image during wet processing - expecially in acidic conditions.
>
> 2) Using alkaline-buffered developers overcomes this but introduces
> the problem of forming of unsoluble ferric hydroxide compound in the
> paper fibers which also cause fading of image.
>
> According to my *limited* knowledge:
>
> Point 1 affects image dmax, not longevity / archival properties (ok,
> maybe a colloidal silver image consisting of very slightly larger
> grains
> - compared to Vandyke: because they were not dissolved by silver
  nitrate
> - is better in terms of longevity, but to what extent? In fact, both
  are
> colloidal silver images.) Point 2 can be eliminated entirely by a
  couple
> of 2-3% citric acid post-rinses after developement.
>
> I do (actually, "was doing" is proper) Vandykes and I never used
> straight tap water even for the first rinse. Only 2% citric acid.
> (According to Mike Ware this would cause a density loss due to silver
> nitrate's dissolving effect on colloidal silver - I was pretty happy
> with the image density of "double coated" prints; not that much with
> single coated prints though...) I would use tap water after a good
> deal of clearing in citric acid only (that is: releasing unreacted
> silver nitrate + unexposed iron salts) - as the last rinse (10
> minutes, changing water every 30 secs). Doesn't this mean there's no
> remaining silver nitrate and iron salts which would cause fading of
> the silver image?
>
> In short: Argyrotype can be a remedy for the dmax lovers - letting
> them having good dmax with just one coating (presumably; didn't
> confirmed it myself), but it has the price of being quite finicky
> about paper and relatively difficult to mix. To me, it's not
> necessarily more archival since the final image is the very same
> colloidal silver as in salt print and Vandyke - unless they're
> processed correctly leaving no silver nitrate and iron salts in the
> paper.
>
> What would be your comments?
>
> Regards,
> Loris.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clay [mailto:wcharmon@wt.net]
> Sent: 19 Mart 2006 Pazar 16:07
> To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
> Subject: Re: Mixing argyrotypes
>
>
> ... according to Mike Ware, has distinctly better archival properties
> than either VDB or salt ...
>
Received on Tue Mar 21 15:55:56 2006