U of S | Mailing List Archive | alt-photo-process-l | Re: Gum on masa, again

Re: Gum on masa, again

Sorry if the tone of my answers (which is caused by the fact that I like
"discussion" much - not disputing; you can't enrich your knowledge /
understanding of things in a dispute, plus, I'm a person of details -
being a computer programmer) is bothering you. But then there's your style
(or preference / attitude) of scoring things (or looking like doing it)
which I found non-useful when done by a person who maintains an important
site on gum printing, especially when it contradicts with my experience,
and when I write about it (providing samples) I'm quickly served with a
page. You must give (empathize) that this is quite irritating and can be
taken as patronizing.

I get the impression that you give my "vehemence" (thanks for adding a new
word into my vocabulary) a bad connotation... The vehemence / intensity on
your part is fact that you somehow insist (or you're willing) to see a
grid line pattern on my print - which clearly doesn't exist in the sample
I provide. And I find this "baffling" (another thank you) on my part.
Who's trying to prove what? Quite confusing.

What's the point in showing the grid line patterns with moderately to
heavily pigmented gum mixes in the context of tricolor gum printing since
we tend to use lightly pigmented mixes in tricolor? (As you suggest in
another part of your site about tricolor printing.) I didn't get grid
lines with moderately pigmented mixes too, BTW... (Moderately pigmented to
me = giving convincing blacks in just two coats.)

OK, let's leave it here. Since the discussion now has come to a really non
useful point. (Info is still present, but noise/signal ratio is high for
the casual reader.)

Hope to come back with Masa examples (and useful information about
printing gum on that paper) soon.


11 Ekim 2008, Cumartesi, 12:25 am tarihinde, Katharine Thayer yazmış:
> Loris, I'm afraid I find your vehemence baffling; it's as if you're
> trying to prove me WRONG or something.  All I can do is present my
> observations and findings, as can you.  But the one-coat print you
> show, apparently to prove that you don't get gridlines with one
> coat,  supports rather than contradicts my observations.  Did you
> read my page at all, or are you just arguing in a vacuum?  On the
> page, I described a series of 8 tests from very low pigment
> concentration to high pigment concentration; the only print that
> didn't show the gridlines in the gum print was the one with the
> lightest pigment concentration, and your print here looks like it was
> printed with a similar very lightly pigmented mix.  I have no wish to
> argue with you, and this isn't really serving any useful purpose that
> I can see.  Can we just agree to disagree and leave it at that?  I'm
> not even sure what the disagreement is about; I'm not saying this is
> a crummy or worthless paper, I'm just saying that here's  what I see
> when I print on the wire side of this paper using anything but a very
> lightly pigmented mix,  and were I to print on that paper, I would
> print on the felt side rather than the wire side.   Readers of my
> site are free to take that information for whatever it's worth to
> them.  Obviously it's not worth much to you.  I have no problem with
> that, go in peace. Thank you,
> Katharine
> On Oct 10, 2008, at 1:56 PM, Loris Medici wrote:
>> I just finished sizing about 8 Masa sheets cut to 11x14" size, will
>> try to
>> print a 7x10" image on them. Will use the same curve I devised from
>> Fabriano tests, so maybe the result won't be as good as Fabriano,
>> but the
>> question is cracking so I won't bother to curve this particular
>> paper for
>> these tests. (I expect registration problems too; since the thin
>> paper is
>> more affected of the image shrinkage caused by drying / hardening
>> gum -
>> anyway...)
>> My biggest print was about 9x12". BTW, the carbon tissues I've made on
>> that paper were full sheet...
>> I stated which side I use in my first message; it's the front side
>> (watermark reads right). It's a quite smooth paper to my eye. In
>> fact, the
>> Hahnemuehle Photo Rag smooth inkjet paper I have in my closet is more
>> textured than Fabriano...
>> In my view, that's not a grid pattern. It's simply the irregular marks
>> left by the excessively swelled drying gum (including micro bubbles /
>> cracks). Besides, what you see is heavily accentuated by the strong
>> and
>> relatively oblique light of the scanner (plus the 4x magnification)
>> - it's
>> not visible to the naked eye. Also, it's not regular, therefore
>> can't be
>> labeled as gridline since gridlines, by definition, should exhibit a
>> regular pattern.
>> You say it's more pronounced / visible on one coat, see this:
>> http://tinyurl.com/3j2u2d
>> It's a 400dpi scan at 100% of a one coat gum (first layer of a
>> later multi
>> coat print) made on Fabriano - the pigment load / density is close
>> to your
>> style of printing (as I get it). Do you see any pattern? I can
>> assure you
>> that I don't see anything that wasn't present in the negative...
>> Regards,
>> Loris.
>> 10 Ekim 2008, Cuma, 11:13 pm tarihinde, Katharine Thayer yazmı�:
>>> Mine has no barcode on it; it's just the paper that is identified in
>>> the Daniel Smith catalog as "masa."  How big did you print on it?
>>> As to the Fabriano, what side do you print on?  It's the wire side
>>> (the side from which the watermark reads correctly) that I get the
>>> gridlines that I find objectionable.   I do recommend it for a
>>> beginner paper because  it coats easily and prints fairly reliably,
>>> on other words is a fairly forgivable paper, but I also recommend
>>> that if people do use it, they print on the felt side rather than the
>>> wire side.   I don't use it myself because I don't care for the
>>> surface texture and prefer a smoother paper.
>>>   It was on hybridphoto that I first posted those gridlines, but they
>>> are now posted on my website.
>>> http://www.pacifier.com/~kthayer/html/Paper.html
>>> I do see some grid texture on your detail;  the grid is somewhat
>>> obscured by the multiple printings, but you can still see the piling
>>> up of the gum/pigment on the grid of the paper, especially in areas
>>> where there is more gum laid down. My demo prints are one-coat, so
>>> they show the grid more plainly, but I just prefer not to print on
>>> gridlines at all, single or multiple.  But, as I've always said, each
>>> to his own.
>>> Katharine
>>> On Oct 10, 2008, at 11:49 AM, Loris Medici wrote:
>>>> Katharine, what is the product number in the barcode?
>>>> Mine says AWAGAMI MASA BRIGHT WHITE 86gsm 4530190907590... You're
>>>> describing it as if it's different paper than what I got!? Never
>>>> got any
>>>> cracking myself...
>>>> Another good example for "different people - different experience"
>>>> is the
>>>> Fabriano Artistico pattern: I remember reading your comments about
>>>> this
>>>> paper somewhere (could be either in apug.org or hybridphoto.com -
>>>> don't
>>>> remember exactly); you were complaining about the ugly pattern
>>>> you get
>>>> when printing on that paper. I've printed on Artistico, always on
>>>> the
>>>> front side (watermark reads correctly) and never encountered any
>>>> pattern.
>>>> See a 400dpi (makes something like 4.1x magnification when viewed
>>>> at 100%
>>>> zoom on screen) detail scan of my last print here:
>>>> http://preview.tinyurl.com/4qxf5j
>>>> (a crop that can represent all the tones - not colors - in the
>>>> image)
>>>> No pattern?
>>>> Sometimes, there are just too many variables which makes specific
>>>> products
>>>> and procedures work for some, but not for others. On the other
>>>> hand, this
>>>> cracking case is pretty basic and is causing quite a confusion on
>>>> my part.
>>>> Anyway, being a little more experienced now, I will start to size
>>>> some
>>>> Masa sheets, to try it again (my very first tries were on Masa).
>>>> Fabriano
>>>> is indeed a nice paper for gum (also, I can buy it locally -> a big
>>>> plus
>>>> to me) but the price is pretty high. So, I'm still interested in
>>>> Masa for
>>>> gums -> will see it (and try it to make work) for myself and report
>>>> back.
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Loris.
>>>> 10 Ekim 2008, Cuma, 7:52 pm tarihinde, Katharine Thayer yazm�
>>>> ±��:
>>>>> Um,  well thanks, but I'm not finding this to be so, that the paper
>>>>> is so strong it doesn't disintegrate in water if left to soak, even
>>>>> for a long time, if "disintegrate" is interpreted broadly enough to
>>>>> include these cracks I get in the backing (that's the word I was
>>>>> looking for, cracks).   I left a  plain piece of the paper to soak
>>>>> overnight, just to see what would happen,  and the same thing:
>>>>> cracks in the fuzzy backing, all over the paper.  You see these
>>>>> cracks from the back (upper surface as the paper is floating face
>>>>> downward) as dark lines, and they also show in the face as narrow
>>>>> creases.  So it's not that I'm lifting the edges and causing these
>>>>> tiny creases in the paper, it's soaking the paper that's
>>>>> causing the
>>>>> problem.  It's as if the fuzzy stuff separates slightly in places.
>>>>> So using a screen to support the paper in the water wouldn't
>>>>> help the
>>>>> problem.
>>>>> I was hoping to wake up to an answer this morning;   I was
>>>>> hoping for
>>>>> something like "oh, forgot to tell you about that part; you have to
>>>>> pour Everclear on the paper before you coat it and that keeps it
>>>>> from
>>>>> happening" or some such.  When I did those little test prints a
>>>>> couple of years ago, I didn't have this problem, but those papers
>>>>> were smaller, more like 8x10.  These papers I'm using now are half
>>>>> sheets, 15.5" by 21".  I've now thrown away about a dozen half
>>>>> sheets
>>>>> and spent two days at this; I could have bought three sheets of my
>>>>> usual paper and had half a dozen nice prints by now.  I guess
>>>>> for me
>>>>> this is a lesson in the value of spending money to save money.
>>>>> It's
>>>>> really fascinating how different people's experience is with
>>>>> different materials.  I was attracted to this paper by Keith's
>>>>> exclamation on the list "I really love this paper!"  and by his
>>>>> prints, and by Rajul's and others' prints on masa, but now I can
>>>>> say
>>>>> without reservation, "I truly despise this paper."  Now I know how
>>>>> people feel when they try something I've enthused about and they
>>>>> don't find it as wonderful as I do.
>>>>> I've always prided myself on being able to print gum on just about
>>>>> any paper there is.  I've printed on many Japanese papers including
>>>>> silk tissue (now there's a paper that truly has wet strength!)  on
>>>>> typing paper, on cardstock, inkjet paper, Bristol board, mat board,
>>>>> on all kinds of printing and watercolor papers,  but I think
>>>>> this one
>>>>> has got me beat.
>>>>> Katharine
>>>>> On Oct 9, 2008, at 11:48 PM, Loris Medici wrote:
>>>>>> Katharine,
>>>>>> I don't think there are that much different batches of the same
>>>>>> paper
>>>>>> circulate (as you describe in your previous message), because I
>>>>>> ordered
>>>>>> two packs of this with almost one year between the orders and it
>>>>>> wasn't
>>>>>> different at all.
>>>>>> This paper is very strong in water (= won't disintegrate) even if
>>>>>> you let
>>>>>> it soaking for more than 24 hours. I know that because I've made
>>>>>> carbon
>>>>>> tissue on such soaked paper and there wasn't a slightest hint of
>>>>>> creasing...
>>>>>> I didn't printed large (bigger than 9x12") on Masa and not many
>>>>>> times but
>>>>>> never had that type of creasing in the stage of development too.
>>>>>> I had wrinkles instead (especially while using hair dryer between
>>>>>> coats,
>>>>>> to work quickly).
>>>>>> I guess Keith would be more helpful in solving your problem with
>>>>>> Masa...
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> Loris.
>>>>>> 10 Ekim 2008, Cuma, 8:17 am tarihinde, Katharine Thayer
>>>>>> yazm��
>>>>>> �±���:
>>>>>>> On Oct 9, 2008, at 8:35 PM, Katharine Thayer wrote:
>>>>>>>>  the thing that ruins prints for me is that when the paper gets
>>>>>>>> wet
>>>>>>>> through, it becomes very fragile; any disturbance of the paper
>>>>>>>> (gently picking up an edge to look at how it's developing, etc)
>>>>>>>> opens a crease, almost a tear,  that tends to run diagonally
>>>>>>>> across
>>>>>>>> the print but can go in any direction, and there can be more
>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>> one of them.
>>>>>>> In case anyone's having trouble picturing this:
>>>>>>> http://www.pacifier.com/~kthayer/html/masa.html
>>>>>>> this isn't the whole print, just as much of it as would fit on
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> scanner bed.
>>>>>>> Katharine