Re: pt/pd stops and a neat web find
Ahhh, Eric, I see what you mean...I'm asking too simple a question for too
complex an answer, so here let me simplify my question if it is possible:
How about this:
Ferric Ox 1:
15 g ferric ox
1 g. oxalic acid
55ml water
Ferric Ox 2:
15g ferric ox
1 g ox acid
0.3 g. potassium chlorate
55ml water
OR
Na2 from B and S (sodium chloroplatinate in a 5% solution) with palladium
Platinum Sol 3:
10g potassium chloroplatinite
50ml water
AND/OR
Palladium Sol 3:
5g palladium chloride
3.5g sodium chloride
55ml water
Is that enough?
And to rephrase my question, maybe I should ask what is the LONGEST scale of
stops/steps one has gotten with either of these 2 formulas, above?
But it seems to me that from all the answers to date, the expected range is
8.5 stops to 10 1/3 stops and even more.....
OH and I didn't know that the Getty was studying pt/pd specifically...though
I do have a great image of his scanning equipment scanning a platicyano
print while tech sleeps on...
Chris
Eric said (cut)
By the framing of
the question I am now confused though. Are you calling NA2 a viable
alternative but not someone that uses AFO/FO mix? I would call the use of
the "NA2" contrast agent a relatively new thing, but not more important
than
AFO with ammonia based platinum.
The scale of the developers is different as well.
And what you get at the Formulary is different than what you get at B&S
and
certainly can be different from what one makes themselves. If you're going
to quote scales, I think it might be wise to quote family trees of the
platinum/palladium branches. You might also want to make time comparisons,
as paper changes within a brand name could contribute to shifts in scale.
Some old time formulas were just plain wrong too, so I don't know if
looking
at them without taking that into account will get you very far. The
project
with the Getty is collecting information on formulations and print
quality,
I don't know if anyone has submitted step scales with various formulations
or not.
Eric
Eric Neilsen
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
214-827-8301
www.ericneilsenphotography.com
SKYPE ejprinter
-----Original Message-----
From: Christina Z. Anderson [mailto:zphoto@montana.net]
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 4:44 PM
To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
Subject: Re: pt/pd stops and a neat web find
Eric,
Correction, I actually am a pt/pd printer--one might hope so since I am
teaching it at MOPA this summer :)
I qualify that with that I am just not an exclusive/run with the big
guys/pt/pd printer. The two processes I do are gum first and pt/pd (and
cyano in combination with those two) second (in the darkroom, mordancage,
chromo, hand coloring). In fact, I do a fair amount of pt/pd but I would
never consider myself more of an expert in pt/pd than someone who does it
all the time, as quite a few on this list fit that description without
mentioning names. Hmmm...but all of them seem to be male....hmmmm...big
GUYS...
Again, my interest is only in the maximum stops possible with pt/pd, as a
frame of reference for comparison with the other "shorter scale"
processes.
But I am talking about the NA2 or traditional formula that I won't pull
out
my book and quote amounts but what you get at B and S or Ph Form or mix up
yourself according to old time recipes. I know I know here it goes again,
like the comment of never using filter 0 and 1 I have to qualify
everything
but you hopefully will know what I am getting at. I use am citrate
developer, for instance, but I am also interested in pot ox, pot ox
heated,
pot ox boiling, pure palladium, pure platinum, etc. etc. etc. Any comment
that any of you post has been appreciated. My original question relates
back to the issue of pyro negs and pt/pd and cyano.
And speaking of BIG BIG guys, follows is a URL of one of our very own on
this list who must not be self promoting because I had to find out about
it
from another listee who has a great knack for knowing how to surf the web
strategically :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEmfUk-xjDo
And he IS a big big guy :) --6'5" by some accounts?
It's a really neat video even if I can't understand the language!
Chris
PS (BTW I am in contact with Dusan Stulik about a number of things gum
related but also pt/pd/cyano related...Cigar Boy, for instance.)
__________________
Christina Z. Anderson
http://christinaZanderson.com/
__________________
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Neilsen
To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 3:11 PM
Subject: RE: pt/pd stops
Marek, I am asking not just for general information, but also as Chris is
not a platinum/palladium printer, she may not be aware of the variety of
solution strengths that printers use. And while some of use one solution
strength, others use an entirely different amount. When we use the words
standard and traditional, they may be yours but they may not be mine. I am
not giving you a hard time here, just clarifying. I have seen several
different "traditional" concentrations quoted over the years. Some may not
use a sodium tetracholoropalladate , but rather mix Sodium Chloride and
Palladium Chloride. All these variations can add up to a lot when someone
like Chris is asking what appears to be a basic question. Some talk in
terms of molar solution strength and other in percentages.
And you print with paper that is heat dried? Air dried, humidified, etc.
I might mention to Chris to look into the project going on at the Getty
Conservation Institute about alternative printing. You might be able to
get
more information there too.
Eric Neilsen
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
214-827-8301
www.ericneilsenphotography.com
SKYPE ejprinter
From: Marek Matusz [mailto:marekmatusz@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 9:09 PM
To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
Subject: RE: pt/pd stops
OK Eric,
Here is the technical details
sodium tetracholoropalladate, standard concentration 0.1564 g Pd/cc
solution
Ferric oxalate 26%. Ferric oxalate is homemade via the nitric acid route.
It
is the nicest I ever tested and keeps forever.
Exposure 5 minutes in a bank of BL bulbs, developed in a standard POTA
solution (the solution is very old, just replenished).
Marek
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2009 17:03:43 -0500
From: ejnphoto@sbcglobal.net
Subject: RE: pt/pd stops
To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
It would be worth more if you specified some of your chemical sources and
solution concentrations. Your printing parameters could also be useful.
Eric
Eric Neilsen
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
214-827-8301
www.ericneilsenphotography.com
SKYPE ejprinter
From: Marek Matusz [mailto:marekmatusz@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2009 3:39 PM
To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
Subject: RE: pt/pd stops
For what it's worth, I just printed a 21 step tablet with some other
calibrations stuff that I am working on in pure Pd, 13 steps visible on a
21
Stouffer guide.
Marek
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 17:42:03 -0500
From: ejnphoto@sbcglobal.net
Subject: RE: pt/pd stops
To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
Chris, I am taking advantage of a refine edges on a rather large file to
answer. I think that you'll find that there is no one coating
solution/developer mixture that enough people use to be definitive. The
Ziahype might just be a name, but the print out process is for real. There
tonal scale is no less valid than a traditional FO. Also there is no set
standard coating mixture or even a qualified solution concentration.
These
are real issues for anyone trying to map out the scale of PT/PD solutions.
You best do your own and specify how, what , where, when , why, etc. and
then you'll still have people that "know better" question your product.
Look at Ware's appear on the issue of pt pd solution and yield. It is
however written with the AFO, Ammonia based chemistry, much of the
principles hold true for FO traditional chemistry through my experience.
And as for printing with a 1 , 0, or 00 filter? All the time. I may not
use
it for the whole exposure, but you be sure that those filters see the
enlarger often.
Eric
Eric Neilsen
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
214-827-8301
www.ericneilsenphotography.com
SKYPE ejprinter
From: Christina Z. Anderson [mailto:zphoto@montana.net]
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2009 9:42 AM
To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
Subject: Re: pt/pd stops
Eric and others,
Thanks for the answers. I am getting that one can print over 10 stops
(wow).
Eric, I am interested in just platinum and palladium and combinations
thereof, not Ziatype or whatnot.
I am interested in the utmost capability of a pt/pd print in terms of
stops--to compare with bw, cyanotype, gum, etc. I have gone back and
started
reading Mike Ware's Cyanotype book again and find it is SO worth reading
because each time I return to it I find more. More on this later with
extending cyanotype's range.
It is not a question of "my pt/pd steps are bigger than yours" :) nor does
it relate to those printing gorgeous prints from midtone to black with no
white...
In the BW darkroom I did an interesting visual of printing a Stouffers
with
every filter in the Kodak filter pack to illustrate the tonal range/number
of stops each filter produced. Very illustrative of the effect of
filters!
I'm tempted to post one more visual :)
But no one would print with a 1 or 0 filter which, if memory serves
correctly and I am too lazy to go get the step wedge prints, gave the
longest tonal range.
etc. etc. gotta go teach...
Chris
__________________
Christina Z. Anderson
http://christinaZanderson.com/
__________________
----- Original Message -----
From: EJ Photo
To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 10:11 PM
Subject: RE: pt/pd stops
"Moisture at the time of exposure will also make a difference."
Chris, the process is not static. I have certainly fill out/ used up all
the
steps on a standard stouffer tablet. I have not , as Mark, gone out on
bought the extended version. There are of course many variations of PT/PD
combinations and combinations of FO/AFO ( and others) so the question is
are
you looking to see what is the longest scale that can be achieved with any
combination? Or specifically just a PT/PD combination?
I don't normally tell people to shoot for a range bigger than 2.2, simply
because getting longer scale is more difficult than some want to work.
They
can get lost in the scale and lose the trees. We are after all making
pictures not printing grayscale patches for fun, The painters have covered
that ground although I have seen some photographers doing much the same.
Hey if it works..
Eric
Eric Neilsen Photography
4101 Commerce Street, Suite 9
Dallas, TX 75226
214-827-8301
www.ericneilsenphotography.com
SKYPE ejprinter
From: ender100 [mailto:ender100@aol.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 12, 2009 12:00 AM
To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
Subject: Re: pt/pd stops
Chris,
With pure Palladium, I am getting over 10 stops-I bought a 41 step tablet
because of this!
Moisture at the time of exposure will also make a difference.
--
Best Wishes,
Mark Nelson
Precision Digital Negatives
PDNPrint Forum @ Yahoo Groups
Mark Nelson Photography
On Apr 11, 2009, at 2:26:02 PM, "etienne garbaux"
<photographeur@nerdshack.com> wrote:
From:"etienne garbaux" <photographeur@nerdshack.com>
Subject:Re: pt/pd stops
Date:April 11, 2009 2:26:02 PM CDT
To:alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
Chris wrote:
Can someone tell me the greatest amount of stops they have gotten
with pt/pd? Or put it in terms of logs or DR, if that's how you do it.
I use the traditional formula, 100% Pt, no contrast agent, and you
can clearly see all 31 steps of a 3.05 wedge on the very smooth, very
white papers I favor. That is the exposure scale, of course -- the
print Dmax is generally 1.5 or so. I usually make negatives with a
DR of 3.1-3.2 for this process (which limits one's choice of films).
Best regards,
etienne
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