Voting list members off the island

On Jul 23, 2006, at 8:44 AM, Peter Marshall wrote:

>
> The new methods are bound to become widely known in time as various
> people attend the workshops or pay for the instructions. I don't
> see much point in Terry's approach in charging as I think it is
> more trouble than it is worth for the small amount he will make
> from it, but I don't have any problem with him doing so. There have
> been several people conducting a very silly campaign on here about
> this that annoys me rather more than anything Terry has done in
> recent months.

I have to agree with Peter that the campaign of derision against
Terry has been annoying; in fact John Grocott has managed to land
himself on my short list of people whose posts I won't bother reading
again, for his contributions to this campaign. And there are others
I won't name, who have sunk in my estimation because of their
participation.

Not that I'm championing Terry particularly; I personally have found
the posts I've read of his so empty of useful content that I've never
taken steps to reroute his mail from the junk folder where my mail
program automatically sends anything that comes from aol.com. So the
only parts of his posts I see as a rule are those quoted by others .

But regardless, nothing in what I've seen quoted from Terry's posts
below the derisive or contemptuous responses is as potentially
disruptive to the list, in my opinion, as Don's suggestion, quoted
below, that we should vote Terry "off the island." When the
membership of this list is decided by popular vote, the list will
cease being a useful place for the discussion and dissemination of
information and will become simply a house organ for whatever little
group has managed to vote off the island everyone they don't like
personally, or with whom they disagree on issues, or whose interests
don't coincide with theirs. It will be a cozy little group, but not a
very useful or complete source of the wealth of information,
expertise, approaches and viewpoints available about alt photo
processes.

The beauty and value of this list is that there is something for
everyone here. We all come from different backgrounds and have
different criteria for deciding who seems credible, whose style we
learn from best, what information is most useful to us. There is a
wide range of knowledge and interest, from beginners who just want a
recipe for how to do a process (and don't bother me with any
complications about the process itself) to beginners who really want
to understand the process in depth and are frustrated that the
answers to their questions aren't yet known, to experts who are
trying to find those answers. There should be room for all those
interests and levels of expertise here, and in my experience, there
always has been, during my tenure here at least.

There is a good balance, in my opinion, between questions and answers
about the simple practical details of, say gum printing, and more in-
depth discussions intended to share observations and test results as
a way of coming to a deeper understanding of the mechanisms of the
process. But every now and then someone takes it upon himself to
try to limit the discussions to some lowest common denominator of
topics which would interest absolutely everyone. To try to impose
one's own preferences on the list community as a whole is megalomania
indeed. Terry and some of his detractors have been equally guilty of
engaging in these campaigns, which as Peter says about the campaign
against the Rex processes, can be much more annoying and tedious
than whatever information or discussion they are intended to quash in
the first place; in fact, in my opinion they are invariably so.

Gordon decides who has been so insulting to fellow list members as to
merit expulsion from the list; for those who fail to reach that level
but whose contributions we personally find annoying or not useful, or
for discussions that don't interest us, the delete key or a kill
file is the reasonable solution. My 2cents.

Katharine

>
> Regards
>
> Peter Marshall
> petermarshall@cix.co.uk
> _________________________________________________________________
> My London Diary http://mylondondiary.co.uk/
> London's Industrial Heritage: http://petermarshallphotos.co.uk/
> The Buildings of London etc: http://londonphotographs.co.uk/
> and elsewhere......
>
>
>
> Don Bryant wrote:
>
>> Peter,
>>
>> I've been on this list now for many years, and I can tell you it's
>> more than
>> an issue of merely pressing the delete key. His posts have a
>> culmative
>> effect on the list participation.
>> You may wish to make obsequious posts for Terry, if so that's
>> find. But
>> please let us all have some intellectual honesty about Terry's
>> love to play
>> a cat and mouse routine with others that do bother to post.
>>
>> For example his recent exchange with Loris was simply an attempt to
>> deprecate Loris' enthusiasm for the New Cyanotype process. I
>> inferred this
>> as a way to make the new T-REX cyanotype process to appear
>> superior, when in
>> reality all of the examples that Terry has placed on his web page
>> look
>> inferior (all very flat low contrast images.) Given that some
>> people may
>> prefer a low contrast image (including Terry) the process may be
>> fine,
>> however Terry has neatly avoided the fact the one could never get
>> any other
>> result. That is what Loris was reacting to (IMO) in a round about
>> way as
>> well as the Chinese fire drill that he pressed Loris to perform
>> with his
>> (Terry's) silly nonsensical responses.
>>
>> That's what pisses people off, Terry's silly disregard for others
>> opinions
>> and his failure to be responsive and live up to his so called
>> reputation.
>>
>> I could go on with more examples but I've made my point.
>>
>> Don Bryant
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Peter Marshall [mailto:petermarshall@cix.co.uk] Sent:
>> Saturday, July 22, 2006 1:29 PM
>> To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
>> Subject: Re: palladium drydown and developer (albumen & collodion)
>>
>> I can't understand people who apparently use a computer that
>> doesn't have a delete key and an e-mail program that doesn't have
>> twit filtering facilities :-)
>>
>> I also find it hard to see that Terry has broken the 'rules' so
>> that he might be banned.
>>
>> Easy to see his contribution to alt photo though, through
>> organising various events, spreading the gospel and the discovery
>> of new methods which I think will eventually become very important
>> in alt printing.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Peter Marshall
>> petermarshall@cix.co.uk
>> _________________________________________________________________
>> My London Diary http://mylondondiary.co.uk/
>> London's Industrial Heritage: http://petermarshallphotos.co.uk/
>> The Buildings of London etc: http://londonphotographs.co.uk/
>> and elsewhere......
>>
>>
>>
>> Don Bryant wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Terry,
>>>
>>>
>>> Why do you manage to suggest that everyone else is wrong and you are
>>>
>>>
>> right?
>>
>>
>>> My question is meant rhetorically, you need not answer.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm not going to waste any time and get to the point with my message
>>>
>>>
>> today.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> It's time for you to go, that is, to be banned from this list.
>>>
>>>
>>> I vote we kick you and your drivel off the "island."
>>>
>>>
>>> I therefore request that Gordon place you in exile once again.
>>>
>>>
>>> I know others on this list, who feel the same as I, are not
>>> likely to make
>>>
>>>
>> a
>>
>>
>>> public disclosure of their disgust with your behavior. I would
>>> encourage
>>> them to send a private e-mail to Gordon requesting your dismissal
>>> from the
>>> list ASAP.
>>>
>>>
>>> BTW, as far as the B&S list goes, you've pulled the same crap
>>> over there
>>>
>>>
>> for
>>
>>
>>> years; frankly I don't think they are interested in your
>>> participation
>>>
>>>
>> there
>>
>>
>>> either.
>>>
>>>
>>> Don Bryant
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _____
>>> From: TERRYAKING@aol.com [mailto:TERRYAKING@aol.com] Sent:
>>> Saturday, July 22, 2006 9:48 AM
>>> To: alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
>>> Subject: Re: palladium drydown and developer (albumen & collodion)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Witho
>>>
>>> I have been teaching alternative processes very successfully for
>>> a very
>>>
>>>
>> long
>>
>>
>>> time.and I have given a hell of a lot.. There are generations of
>>> students
>>> who will attest to this.
>>>
>>> If you had read things more carefully.you would have seen that your
>>> perception was wrong. You are not aware of the facts and you draw
>>> the
>>>
>>>
>> wrong
>>
>>
>>> conclusions; this leads to your being unjustifiably offensive.
>>> But I
>>> suspect that was your intention.
>>> I would like to see things improve. I suggest that you prefer the
>>> status
>>> quo.
>>>
>>> When I joined this list it was good but later, whenever I have set
>>>
>>>
>> anything
>>
>>
>>> up, such as APIS, somebody on this list attacked it. This is
>>> true not
>>>
>>>
>> just
>>
>>
>>> for me but is true for many others who would leave as they could
>>> not see
>>>
>>>
>> the
>>
>>
>>> point in putting up with this kind of nonsense. They had better
>>> things to
>>> do.
>>>
>>> Somebody, who is a subscriber to this list has told me that the
>>> way I have
>>> neen treated in the last week or so was 'absolutely
>>> disgusting'. In fact
>>> it was like being in a school playground. .
>>>
>>> I am a good teacher and have developed and suggested methods
>>> that are now
>>> common in discussions on this list but now, when I suggest a way
>>> of doing
>>> things, instead of accepting that it is a legitimate approach
>>> open for
>>> discussion, it is pooh-poohed as it is not the accepted way of
>>> doing
>>> things. You need some intiative here, not long discussions of
>>>
>>>
>> insignificant
>>
>>
>>> and useless details.
>>>
>>> When I suggest other ways of making sizes for platinum prints,
>>> someone
>>>
>>>
>> tells
>>
>>
>>> me that he cannot see the point as gelatine is good for the
>>> methods he
>>>
>>>
>> uses
>>
>>
>>> and implies that as he has not come across yellowing in
>>> albumenised paper
>>>
>>>
>> it
>>
>>
>>> can be of no significance..Now this is significant as the person
>>> concerned
>>> is a guru on this list. I mention it as the most recent example.
>>> of many.
>>>
>>> When I suggest that one can make develop gum prints in seconds
>>> rather than
>>> hours, it is either ignored or I am told that my puddle pusher
>>> methods
>>>
>>>
>> will
>>
>>
>>> produce 'rotten' prints. Not very helpful for those trying to learn.
>>>
>>> Recently when I made a simple comment about gum printing I got an
>>>
>>>
>> emotional
>>
>>
>>> and irrational spiel. This is not the first time this has happened.
>>>
>>> Once, earlier, when I pointed out that a leading light had got
>>> something
>>> wrong I was told that I would not know what had hit me and that
>>> there
>>>
>>>
>> would
>>
>>
>>> be blood on the carpet. I was even told that I could stay on the
>>> list if I
>>> did not mention gum printing. I left. and stayed away.
>>> That is why I am defensive. That is why I suggest that people
>>> should
>>>
>>>
>> attend
>>
>>
>>> conferences such as APIS in Santa Fe or in England as that is
>>> where you
>>>
>>>
>> can
>>
>>
>>> get a reasonable standard of discussion.That is why I, and many
>>> others do
>>> not 'give' as much as they might to this list. That is why I save
>>> things
>>>
>>>
>> for
>>
>>
>>> conferences. The 'benefit' is a rational exchange of ideas.
>>> Sometimes, but
>>> only sometimes does one get that here
>>> Sometimes one thinks that may be a chance that things could
>>> improve but
>>>
>>>
>> one
>>
>>
>>> is quickly dissillusioned by comments such as yours...
>>>
>>> There is a silent majority who would prefer less domination by a
>>> few and
>>> fewer of these silly attacks. They complain, but do nothing.
>>> This list should be a place where people of like mind can discuss
>>> things
>>>
>>>
>> in
>>
>>
>>> an adult and informed manner. I am afraid that this is just not
>>> true .
>>>
>>>
>> This
>>
>>
>>> list cannot be taken seriously until it is properly administered.
>>> I suggest that, if you have a serious interest in alternative
>>> photography,
>>> you should attend conferences, go to exhibitions and museums ,
>>> and read
>>>
>>>
>> the
>>
>>
>>> books and manuals. Incidentally, the author of one of the best
>>> manuals for
>>> those starting in alternative photography, who happens to be a
>>> friend of
>>> mine, joined this list but left quickly when all he got was
>>> insults. I
>>>
>>>
>> hope
>>
>>
>>> that you take the point.
>>>
>>> This list has given others a bad name but if anyone is seeking a
>>>
>>>
>> reasonable
>>
>>
>>> level of discussion go to
>>>
>>> the B&S web site
>>> or
>>>
>>> artaltphoto@yahoogroups.co.uk
>>>
>>> Incidentally , the answer to the yellowing problem is that one
>>> uses an
>>> organic rather than a mineral acid for clearing. It is in the
>>> manuals.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Terry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 22/07/2006 10:21:47 GMT Daylight Time,
>>> info@witho.nl
>>> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello Terry,
>>>
>>>
>>> Why do you invite everybody to a conference or a workshop in
>>> stead of
>>> sharing what you know in this forum. Like this albumen question
>>> you again
>>> play your hide and seek game. You mention a problem (yellowing)
>>> which you
>>> have overcome but in stead of sharing how you start an argument
>>> (in a
>>> lengthy way). Just tell on list what is your solution to a
>>> problem in
>>>
>>>
>> stead
>>
>>
>>> of referring to literature, experience and testing. All people
>>> acquire
>>> information the same way as you. So help the inexperienced in
>>> stead of
>>> telling them over and over that you have found a better solution.
>>> If you
>>> want to help people with their attitude towards learning do it of
>>> list. If
>>> you want to contribute with wisdom do it straight forward without
>>>
>>>
>> hesitation
>>
>>
>>> and without the expectancy of benefit. If you feel that you have
>>> achieved
>>>
>>>
>> it
>>
>>
>>> to be a master or a teacher behave like one.
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>> Witho
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
Received on 07/23/06-04:22:23 PM Z