An exchange with Mike Ware (on Argyrotype)

From: Loris Medici ^lt;mail@loris.medici.name>
Date: 03/21/06-10:59:30 AM Z
Message-id: <20060321165938.C1CA976DB0@spamf4.usask.ca>

Please start reading from the bottom.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Ware [mailto:
<http://us.f526.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?To=mike@mikeware.co.uk&YY=84552&or
der=down&sort=date&pos=0> mike@mikeware.co.uk]
Sent: 21 Mart 2006 Salư 17:21
To: Loris Medici
Subject: Re: Argyrotype: Better achival stability? How and why?
Importance: High

Greetings Loris,

It's very good to hear from you again. Thank you for acquainting me
with
one of the current debates on the Alt Photo Process List - I
desubscribed from it long ago.

The issue you relate is a perfect example of what I characterise as the
'Aunt Sally' List Syndrome:-

1) Attribute to someone a statement that they never made, and then

2) Derive great satisfaction from seeing them publicly pilloried!

I have never stated that "Argyrotypes have distinctly better archival
properties than VDB or salt prints".

For the benefit of those who cannot access the WWW, here is exactly
what
I say on my web pages relating to the permanence of these processes:

 <http://www.mikeware.co.uk/mikeware/Argyrotype_Process.html>
http://www.mikeware.co.uk/mikeware/Argyrotype_Process.html

" The inherent problem of the iron-based silver processes lies in the
danger of leaving residual ferric iron in the print - to its ultimate
undoing, because iron(III) will oxidise silver with consequent
degradation of the image. It is this problem that the Argyrotype
process
has been designed to avert." ....

"Image Permanence

Like any colloidal silver image, especially those on plain paper
unprotected by a colloid binder layer, an Argyrotype is inevitably
rather susceptible to attack by oxidising acids and sulphur-containing
substances. However the residual iron and silver in the unexposed areas
should be very low and image stability and lightfastness are good."

I don't see how that can be interpreted as my claiming that
"Argyrotypes
have distinctly better archival properties than VDB or salt prints".

Indeed, I'm not aware of any experimental work that has been done to
establish the relative archival permanence of these various prints,
e.g.
by accelerated ageing tests, but would be very glad to hear of any real
scientific (as opposed to anecdotal) evidence in this respect.

Your procedure of wet processing Van Dykes in 2% citric acid seems
sound, as a means of eliminating the iron(III) residue. Is this now the
generally accepted method? And what about kallitypes?

It's significant, Loris, that you admit this process does not yield an
adequate Dmax in one coat. If so, then that - to me (a very lazy
animal)
- is a chemically inadequate process. I have never had to double coat
argyrotype (if Clay Harmon does, then there is something wrong either
with his sensitizer, his paper, or his procedure). You can judge for
yourself whether the single coat gives an adequate Dmax from the
(rather
crudely
scanned) jpegs on my Web gallery:

 <http://www.mikeware.co.uk/mikeware/galleries.html>
http://www.mikeware.co.uk/mikeware/galleries.html

The only advantage I would claim for argyrotype is simply its ease and
user-friendliness: it is a 'one bottle' sensitizer with a good shelf
life, single coating, and very simple processing. Those who find making
the sensitizer difficult (I cannot understand why - but I'm a chemist),
can buy it commercially, I believe. (BTW, I receive no commissions, and
am in no way involved with any manufacturer, their quality controls -
or
the lack of
them.)

I make no apologies whatsoever for specifying only the best possible
paper, having experienced the inconsistencies of anything less. While
accepting that print-making on chip wrappers or old grocery bags may be
a valid artistic activity, those who choose to do so can't expect fine,
lasting results. With the iron-based processes, the paper is a reactive
component in the chemistry - it's not just an inert substrate. I am
continually astonished by those practitioners who expect the iron-based
photochemistry to work on any paper - they might just as well expect it
to work with any chemical.

Your discussion also encompassed the Salt print; this is an instance of
the 'Muddy the Pool' List Syndrome:-

1) Be sure to introduce at least one irrelevance,

2) It will complicate the debate and confuse the debaters!

Here beginneth the digression:

The susceptibility of salt prints to fading is largely due to the
retention of thiosulphate, and other thiosalts, which ultimately
convert
the silver to silver sulphide. (I have published an entire book on this
subject). The cases are not really comparable, because the fixation of
a
salt print requires the removal of a large amount of unexposed silver
chloride which is insoluble in water, hence a concentrated thiosulphate
bath is commonly used.

The argyrotype and Van Dyke use water-soluble silver salts, most of
which simply wash out in the processing. Only a very dilute
thiosulphate
bath is needed, for a short time, to remove any traces of insoluble
silver salts left by impurities (e.g. chloride in the water). Residual
thiosulphate is much less of a problem in consequence.

Moreover, the salt print should contain no iron at any stage.

The two cases, despite both yielding images in silver, are not really
comparable in regard to their problems of impermanence.

Here endeth the digression.

My personal view is that silver (especially the nanoparticle form in a
plain paper print with no protective colloidal organic 'binder') is not
really a very good substance for permanent images, owing to its
reactivity.

Modern makers of Kallitypes and Van Dykes seem to agree that toning
with
platinum, palladium or gold is essential to their preservation, and I
agree that argyrotype is in the same category. If permanence is an
important issue, then I prefer to make my images entirely in platinum,
palladium, or gold in the first place, rather than build my house on
sandy foundations.

I am quite agreeable, Loris, if you wish to forward this response to
the
List or elsewhere - but please don't edit it!

All good wishes; I hope to make it to your fabulous city of Istanbul
someday,

Mike

-- 
Dr Michael J Ware
20 Bath Road
Buxton
Derbyshire
SK17 6HH
UK
tel  :  +44 (0)1298 78604
email:
<http://us.f526.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?To=mike@mikeware.co.uk&YY=84552&or
der=down&sort=date&pos=0> mike@mikeware.co.uk
WWW  :   <http://www.mikeware.co.uk/> http://www.mikeware.co.uk
On 21-03-06 12:12, Loris Medici wrote
> Dear Mike,
> 
> I don't know if you read alt-photo-process-l list but let me pass you 
> an exchange we made with Clay Harmon regarding Argyrotype process 
(see
> below for details)... It's obvious I don't have much chemistry 
> (especially photographic chemistry) knowledge, but combining my 
> limited knowledge with the points you make in your Argyrotype 
> Practical Instructions article we both (Clay and I that is) came to 
> the conclusion that Argyrotype is not necessarily more archival 
> compared to Salt Print or Vandyke as long as they're processed 
> correctly, leaving no silver nitrate (ny rinsing well) and/or iron 
> compounds (by dissolving them with citric acid) in the paper.
> 
> I would be glad if you make some comments and/or explanations 
> (preferrably in the list) letting us better understand the advantages 
> of Argyrotype in the longevity domain.
> 
> Best regards,
> Loris.
> 
> P.S. Actually in my first message I made an assumption as following: 
> since the silver dissolving effect of silver nitrate is kept out, 
> colloidal silver particles formed with Argyrotype may be slightly 
> larger compared to colloidal silver particles formed with Salt Print 
> and Vandyke (hence the color difference), therefore it may show a 
> slight advantage over them - but odds are this is a marginal 
advantage
> rather than being a strong / practical one. In fact, colloidal silver 
> is colloidal silver..
> 
> ----Original Message-----
> From: Clay [mailto:
<http://us.f526.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?To=wcharmon@wt.net&YY=84552&order=
down&sort=date&pos=0> wcharmon@wt.net]
> Sent: 20 Mart 2006 Pazartesi 16:05
> To:
<http://us.f526.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?To=alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca&YY
=84552&order=down&sort=date&pos=0> alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
> Subject: Re: Mixing argyrotypes
> 
> 
> Well, as I said, I did Argyrotype for a while and then ditched it 
> because its fussiness overwhelmed its supposed advantages. FWIW, I 
> found that it did better with double coating, similar to what works 
> best for me when doing Van Dyke.
> 
> I'm not enough of a chemist to be able to comment intelligently about 
> his chemical arguments about the archival advantages of Argyrotype. 
My
> 'aw-shucks, I'm just a simple caveman' impression of his arguments is 
> the same as yours: it is still colloidal silver that ends up in the 
> paper fibers, and there would seem to be no particular advantage of 
> one over the other in terms of archival stability.
> 
> Clay
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Loris Medici [mailto:
<http://us.f526.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?To=mail@loris.medici.name&YY=84552
&order=down&sort=date&pos=0> mail@loris.medici.name]
> Sent: 20 Mart 2006 Pazartesi 13:26
> To:
<http://us.f526.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?To=alt-photo-process-l@sask.usask.
ca&YY=84552&order=down&sort=date&pos=0> alt-photo-process-l@sask.usask.ca
> Subject: RE: Mixing argyrotypes
> 
> 
> I can't say I understand well the remarks made by Mike Ware in his 
> paper "The Argyrotype Process", section "An Alternative Silver Salt". 
> (See it @ 
 <http://www.mikeware.co.uk/mikeware/Argyrotype_Process.html>
http://www.mikeware.co.uk/mikeware/Argyrotype_Process.html.)
> 
> He says:
> 
> 1) Silver nitrate is an oxidiser; it oxidizes the colloidal silver 
> image during wet processing - expecially in acidic conditions.
> 
> 2) Using alkaline-buffered developers overcomes this but introduces 
> the problem of forming of unsoluble ferric hydroxide compound in the 
> paper fibers which also cause fading of image.
> 
> According to my *limited* knowledge:
> 
> Point 1 affects image dmax, not longevity / archival properties (ok, 
> maybe a colloidal silver image consisting of very slightly larger 
> grains
> - compared to Vandyke: because they were not dissolved by silver
nitrate
> - is better in terms of longevity, but to what extent? In fact, both
are
> colloidal silver images.) Point 2 can be eliminated entirely by a
couple
> of 2-3% citric acid post-rinses after developement.
> 
> I do (actually, "was doing" is proper) Vandykes and I never used 
> straight tap water even for the first rinse. Only 2% citric acid. 
> (According to Mike Ware this would cause a density loss due to silver 
> nitrate's dissolving effect on colloidal silver - I was pretty happy 
> with the image density of "double coated" prints; not that much with 
> single coated prints though...) I would use tap water after a good 
> deal of clearing in citric acid only (that is: releasing unreacted 
> silver nitrate + unexposed iron salts) - as the last rinse (10 
> minutes, changing water every 30 secs). Doesn't this mean there's no 
> remaining silver nitrate and iron salts which would cause fading of 
> the silver image?
> 
> In short: Argyrotype can be a remedy for the dmax lovers - letting 
> them having good dmax with just one coating (presumably; didn't 
> confirmed it myself), but it has the price of being quite finicky 
> about paper and relatively difficult to mix. To me, it's not 
> necessarily more archival since the final image is the very same 
> colloidal silver as in salt print and Vandyke - unless they're 
> processed correctly leaving no silver nitrate and iron salts in the 
> paper.
> 
> What would be your comments?
> 
> Regards,
> Loris.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Clay [mailto:
<http://us.f526.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?To=wcharmon@wt.net&YY=84552&order=
down&sort=date&pos=0> wcharmon@wt.net]
> Sent: 19 Mart 2006 Pazar 16:07
> To:
<http://us.f526.mail.yahoo.com/ym/Compose?To=alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca&YY
=84552&order=down&sort=date&pos=0> alt-photo-process-l@usask.ca
> Subject: Re: Mixing argyrotypes
> 
> 
> ... according to Mike Ware, has distinctly better archival properties 
> than either VDB or salt ...
> 
Received on Tue Mar 21 11:00:24 2006

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.8 : 04/10/06-09:43:46 AM Z CST